Jackson and Sharp passenger trucks - what to do with them

[Pete "Cosmo" Barrington]

That is a good point.
I belive either MNGRR or SRRP had frame pieces cast for coach seats, I wonder if they still have the patterns/plans?

[Jon Chase]

This evening I had an opportunity to look at this thread after several days' absence.  I'm saddened that the information I provided regarding passenger car trucks and manufacturers was ill-recieved by another occasional participant.  Thank you, Allen and Ed, for helping to refocus the discussion, and to Jason for his technical update.

Cosmo, you ask a worthwhile question.  The mechanical differences between the three manufacturer's trucks are not significant, and I believe all share a 4' wheelbase.  Nevertheless, details such as equalizer profiles, pedestal shape, dimensions and so forth all differ to certain degrees.  Photos and drawings, albeit small-scale, of all three types may be seen in the two Peter S. Barney passenger car books available in the gift shop.  In a nutshell, you could probably put your antique Chevrolet onto Ford running gear and make it work just fine.  But from a preservation/restoration perspective, that would be all you had. 

Any replica WW&F Jackson & Sharp passenger car, while doubtless still years in the future, will obviously benefit from having the correct trucks as Jason indicates, just as any correct restoration of different-origin cars at the other museums in the future also would.  One may note that the several replica freight car trucks built at Phillips in recent years are not B&SR swing motion types; the obvious reason being that's not what the SR&RL used.  People participate in, contribute to, and enjoy the results of museum-quality restorations and replicas when the focus is on accuracy.  A replica #2 coach would presumably not be sheathed in Texture 1-11 nor have lighting fixtures from Home Depot; most WW&F members have a fairly high threshold for what constitutes "good enough."   

I hope that in the meanwhile, any differences of opinions on this or any subject will not prompt recourse to formal titles and surnames in response.  For the record, I have attended each spring and fall work session for about four years now and have greatly enjoyed working with the people I've met of all backgrounds and temperments.  Due to distance, I am unable to participate more frequently, but I am actively involved in passenger car restoration work elsewhere nearly every weekend (alongside four other WW&F members).  I read this forum often but post infrequently; sometimes one may learn more by listening, thus avoiding "the risk of further chastisement" altogether. 









 

[Ed Lecuyer]

[Moderator's Note]

Jon, as moderator, please allow me to apologize for anything that I may (or may not) have done to make you feel "chastised" on this forum. We welcome all points of view. While I tend to let posts stand unedited, I have occasionally edited out inappropriate comments or deleted posts altogether that were not helpful to the discussion.

I re-read Wayne's posting that you refer to in yours, and while I can understand why you may have taken it as a chastisement, I do not believe that is the actual case. In fact, Wayne and I had a private email conversation regarding some grant possibilities - and an I confident that he meant no harm. He, like you (and I, for that matter), is "from away" and only can make it to Sheepscot on occasion.

I think that it is important for everyone to remember that written communication - especially an informal medium like email or a discussion forum - has its drawbacks. One is that inflections of text are completely wiped away.
Consider the following sentence:
I love the WW&F.

Read it 3 times, placing the most emphasis on a different word.
*I* love the WW&F.
I *love* the WW&F.
I love the *WW&F*.

See how the meaning changes? This gets lost in a simple text message.

Everyone who participates on this forum wants the very best for the WW&F. Otherwise we would waist our time on some other hobby, web site, or what-not. We want everyone to feel free to speak their mind on this forum without fear of repercussions, etc.; like a family gathered around the dinner table for some conversation. The parents (or in our case BOD) still make the final decisions, but everyone listens to each other's cares and concerns. Also, like the dinner table, we swap stories, tell jokes, and enjoy basic fellowship with our WW&F family.

I think that this forum is a great medium for members near and far to get their regular WW&F "fix" when they can't be at the museum. I'd also like to see it expand so that members "from away" can be found to take on small to medium size projects that don't have to be done at Sheepscot. (Current examples of things taken care of from "away" members include forum moderation, grant writing, pattern making, newsletter mailing, and many other tasks.)

Finally, if anyone has any comments, or feels that something is out of line, please PM me, or email me at ed@spongeawareness.com. I try to keep on top of all the conversations, but that isn't always possible.

[Vincent "Lightning" LeRow]

Perhaps If the trucks do get overhauled before we are ready to build a new coach the can be used under #8 temporarily.  and when it does come time to build our new car we can pull them out and use them under the new coach. 

[Ted Miles]

Folks,
         The Colorado Railroad Museum has built six pairs of J&S passenger car trucks for 36" gauge track. Thus they have a pattern ready made.

Can anyone say if this pattern and frame would be the same for a two foot gauge
railroad? To put it another way does the track gauge change the shape of the frames?

They are being used under D&RGW passenger cars; the freight cars trucks are used under other cars in their large collection.

Ted Miles, WW&F Life member

[Ira Schreiber]

Having seen the 3' trucks at CRM, they are huge compared to 2' trucks. It appears nothing is usable as the pedestals are much larger.

[Philip Marshall]

Ira is right. I've seen the 3' gauge passenger trucks the Friends of the C&TS are working on at Antonito, and they're huge in comparison to our 2' gauge J&S trucks, in terms of both the pedestal castings and the frames. I can't see how they could share any parts in common.

[Wayne Laepple]

The greatest obstacle to our manufacturing new J&S-design trucks is the cost of wheels. I have gotten quotes from two commercial manufacturers of railroad wheels -- both will make 20-inch wheels for us. The cost is $2,100  per wheel, with a minimum order of 20 wheels. That makes it $42,000 just for the wheels. Unless we can persuade another museum or two to partner with us, we're stymied in that regard. Other than the wheels, there are castings to be made, but we know how to make that happen. The equalizers would need to be water-jet cut from plate or forged, and we know how that can happen. The wheels are the problem.

[Philip Marshall]

This may be a dumb question, but if modern forged wheels are so prohibitively expensive, then why can't we go back to the 19th century and use cast iron wheels? I know that chilled cast iron wheels can't be turned, but is there some other problem with the material that makes its use inadvisable? We could just make a 20" wheel pattern and have as many cast as we might want at a small fraction of the cost.

[Ira Schreiber]

I have a source for cast iron wheels but steel wheels have a TWO year lead time according to my source..

[Thor Windbergs]

Just a question guys,

If US steel wheels cost $2100 per wheel, have you entertained inquiring overseas? 2ft, 20" wheels are not rocket science meant to go  300km/h. I would imagine that there are suppliers in Brazil, China, Romania or other East European suppliers that could beat that price delivered, question is probably import tax or does the WW&F have a benefit as a 501c org?

If you are interested and not, strictly "buy American", then I could ask contacts that I have in Brazil and Romania. But I might need a drawing of what you want, with rough specs, especially the rough axle hole and tread/flange requirements.

We have some beautiful original J&S 60cm trucks on the EFPP in Brazil, some even with spoked wheels http://www.thorsteamworld.com/photos/pbm.asp?model=Passenger
Naturally they are not for sale, but I imagine that some parts could be cheaper if made abroad.

cheers from the stolen moments from the work desk in Germany
Thor

[Wayne Laepple]

Hey Thor --

We may decide to go with chilled cast iron wheels using a pattern produced in house, though there are certain disadvantages with chilled wheels as noted elsewhere in this thread. I imagine the main reason we haven't looked beyond our own shores for sources is our inexperience in dealing with overseas suppliers, shipping, tariffs, customs, etc. I made some efforts last year to secure wheels from South Africa, but the difficulties not only with shipping, but also with the various bureaucracies that would be involved in the process, discouraged me from going much further than determining that, while it was possible to accomplish, such a shipment should only be attempted by someone with a very long life expectancy to wait while all the agencies had their say and signed off. I'm already old, so that wasn't going to be me!

That said, I believe we have drawings of the Portland-style wheel, and if a copy was forwarded to you, it may be worth looking into.

Cheers -- Wayne

[Thor Windbergs]

Wayne,
I can sympathize with you, when I was in Brazil, I tried to help them buy 5 9" Westinghouse Air Pump copies since they have a shortage in Brazil due to many/most of the steam engines were retired with vacuum brake equipment, but the Brazilian Govn. refused import saying find local sources...right.

Yes I think wheels could be imported, if someone in the interest group had experience with import, but normal people of limited lifespan and interest we be discouraged. And the sources that I was thinking of will not have experience exporting to the US, so forget I mentioned it, technically possible,  is not always bureaucratically probable.

Hey Thor --

We may decide to go with chilled cast iron wheels using a pattern produced in house, though there are certain disadvantages with chilled wheels as noted elsewhere in this thread. I imagine the main reason we haven't looked beyond our own shores for sources is our inexperience in dealing with overseas suppliers, shipping, tariffs, customs, etc. I made some efforts last year to secure wheels from South Africa, but the difficulties not only with shipping, but also with the various bureaucracies that would be involved in the process, discouraged me from going much further than determining that, while it was possible to accomplish, such a shipment should only be attempted by someone with a very long life expectancy to wait while all the agencies had their say and signed off. I'm already old, so that wasn't going to be me!

That said, I believe we have drawings of the Portland-style wheel, and if a copy was forwarded to you, it may be worth looking into.

Cheers -- Wayne