Author Topic: Electric Building - Official Work Thread  (Read 15738 times)

Graham Buxton

  • Museum Member
  • Fireman
  • ****
  • Posts: 320
    • View Profile
Re: Electric Building - Official Work Thread
« Reply #60 on: November 25, 2020, 04:46:08 PM »

The nearest 3-phase to the museum is shown as downtown Wiscasset, on Hooper Street, which serves the elementary school.

While I am not disputing that comment, if you zoom in on the map in the area of the intersection of Cross Rd and Alna Rd, there is a curious  ;D 3-phase red line segment shown about 1000 feet from the WW&F, just north of Sheepscot Rd intersecting Alna Rd.  Here is a screen capture:



And if one looks at that location on Google Maps, guess what is there ... a substation!  :)
« Last Edit: November 25, 2020, 04:54:21 PM by Graham Buxton »
Graham

Benjamin Richards

  • Museum Member
  • Hostler
  • ***
  • Posts: 206
    • View Profile
Re: Electric Building - Official Work Thread
« Reply #61 on: November 25, 2020, 05:44:33 PM »

While I am not disputing that comment, if you zoom in on the map in the area of the intersection of Cross Rd and Alna Rd, there is a curious  ;D 3-phase red line segment shown about 1000 feet from the WW&F, just north of Sheepscot Rd intersecting Alna Rd. 
And if one looks at that location on Google Maps, guess what is there ... a substation!  :)

Wow, good eye! I did not see that! At least 2 of those 3 phases are already strung up to the museum for the existing service, so it would be just the 3rd wire run and a transformer replacement.

Of course this only helps if what comes from the pole can be used directly. The museum would probably want 120/208, not 277/480, to avoid a massive reconfiguration of existing on-campus electrical infrastructure. Hopefully that's what the machines want as well. Otherwise you need another transformer. Existing 240v machines might have something to say about the 208 as well. Or it could be set up as a separately-metered system, although CMP might not go for two meters for such low usage.

Alan Downey

  • Museum Member
  • Baggageman
  • **
  • Posts: 136
    • View Profile
    • Preservation Pattern
Re: Electric Building - Official Work Thread
« Reply #62 on: November 25, 2020, 06:59:35 PM »
Note,

The enthusiasm about getting 3-phase to the shop is appreciated. However, please understand that this topic has been discussed at length by us stakeholders in the shop, and Josh Recave (our electrician).

That said, here is where the 3-phase situation stands, and where it is going:

We currently have three major machine tools which run on three-phase power- our horizontal mill, the large vertical mill, and the large lathe. Power to these machines is supplied by a diesel 3-phase 480V generator. We have a transformer to step it down to a lower voltage for the one machine that requires 220/208. While the generator has served us well for many years, it is very noisy, and it's capacity is already taxed when by our large mill.

In January, we will be taking delivery of a new "wheel" lathe to replace the New Haven. This new machine will be underserved by the existing generator. In addition to a new largest load, I have three other machines which I need to add to the 3-phase circuit: a new small lathe, a pedestal grinder that we've had kicking around, and the radial arm drill. The increased machine count and growing activity around #11 on the horizon, there is a much higher likelyhood of multiple simultaneous users, further taxing the capacity of the existing generator. Long story short, we need more 3-phase power, and we'd like it to be quieter.

That leaves two reasonable options- having CMP run 3-phase from their substation to the shop, or getting a shop sized phase converter. Before my time, CMP quoted a 3-phase supply, and due to poles needing to be changed and upgraded to hold the necessary hardware, it was a 5 figure quote. I don't know the exact number, as that discussion predates my involvement with the museum. As Bob put it, it wasn't affordable then, and isn't the cheapest option now. Individual phase converters for each machine might be cheaper to roll out over time, but the cumulative floor space losses, and number of machines which already need 3-phase make this a really unprofessional solution, and steer us towards a single phase converter large enough to meet the needs of the entire shop. A large phase converter is a reasonable and readily available option. Depending on the capacity and where it is placed (heated or unheated space), the cost will be up to $5K if new, less if used. We can get by with the generator we have for the time being, but hope to make a switch within a year. Josh is an active member of our planning for this upgrade, as he has the experience and credentials to tell us what we can/can't do, and where we can/can't put it. The machine tool voltage requirements and our existing transformer mean that very little will need to be done to switch over to a 220/240V supply. I stress that we are working very closely with a licensed electrician for both planning and execution, and his experience has been a tremendous asset to the museum over many years.

Hope this clarifies things.
Head of Jason Bothering Department
Shop Foreman

Mike Fox

  • Museum Member
  • Empire Builder
  • ********
  • Posts: 5,173
    • View Profile
Re: Electric Building - Official Work Thread
« Reply #63 on: November 25, 2020, 08:41:07 PM »
This is one wall inside one of our electrical containers.

I'm guessing that by "our" you are referring to "your" employer - do I have that correct?

Noting the "480 volts" label on one of the breaker boxes, suggests that box is 3 phase.   Is there any plan for 3 phase in the shop facility at Sheepscot?    (Regardless of whether the WW&F would 'like' to use 3-phase for certain equipment, if that capability is not on the power poles on Cross Road, then  3 phase is not likely an affordable option.)

Sorry, yes. This is at my work. It is 3 phase, 480 volt with a transformer right next to the building stepping down the CMP supplied electric.

We are not talking supplied 3 phase at the museum, I was just posting the picture for reference.
Mike
Doing way too much to list...

John McNamara

  • Operating Volunteers
  • Supervisor
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,500
    • View Profile
Re: Electric Building - Official Work Thread
« Reply #64 on: November 25, 2020, 08:57:26 PM »
I have a vague recollection that our interest in 3-phase began about twenty years ago when we obtained some machines from a company down in Massachusetts. At least one of them, and perhaps more, used 3-phase at 525 volts. After much discussion of phase converters, the problem was solved on an interim basis by obtaining a used generator to produce 480 3-phase and converting that to 525 by connecting a 480-to-525 transformer backwards. (BTW, using transformers "backwards" is why one must have a disconnect on home generators to prevent back-feeding one's home electrical feed lest the transformer on your local pole convert your generator's output to multiple thousands of volts.) I think it was Josh who found the nifty transformer. Thanks, Josh! I don't know if we are still using the 525 machine, but I know that we did re-motor some of the other machines.

At the time we had the discussion about phase converters, there was some discussion about their effects on the commercial power feeds, but I don't know if anything came of that concern. Interest in phase converters flagged after the local generator and magic transform system was implemented.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2020, 09:02:40 PM by John McNamara »

James Patten

  • Administrator
  • Superintendent
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,878
  • Loco for 6
    • View Profile
Re: Electric Building - Official Work Thread
« Reply #65 on: November 25, 2020, 09:13:58 PM »
Alan's recollection is right.  I used to commute to work with a guy who worked for CMP.   I had him ask someone in his office what the cost would be run 3 phase from the corner of Cross and 218 down to our transformer (wrongly believing that 3-phase was already at the corner).  The answer was in the neighborhood of $50,000, and this was probably 8 or so years ago now.  You'd need to at least double that figure (maybe triple) because of the distance from the substation to the corner of Cross and 218.

Brendan Barry

  • Museum Member
  • Dispatcher
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,000
    • View Profile
Re: Electric Building - Official Work Thread
« Reply #66 on: November 26, 2020, 09:02:57 PM »
Window ready to go in.

United Timber Bridge Workers, Local 1894, Alna, ME

Bill Baskerville

  • Museum Member
  • Dispatcher
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,234
  • Life Member
    • View Profile
Re: Electric Building - Official Work Thread
« Reply #67 on: November 26, 2020, 09:58:20 PM »
I can CLEARLY SEE the value of refurbishing an old window.  It will enhance the LOOK of our electric building.
~ B2 ~ Wascally Wabbit & Gofer ~

Jeff Schumaker

  • Museum Member
  • Dispatcher
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,162
    • View Profile
Re: Electric Building - Official Work Thread
« Reply #68 on: November 27, 2020, 06:45:36 PM »
Bill,

It PANES me to hear you say that. :o

Jeff S.
Hey Rocky, watch me pull a moose trout out of my hat.

Mike Fox

  • Museum Member
  • Empire Builder
  • ********
  • Posts: 5,173
    • View Profile
Re: Electric Building - Official Work Thread
« Reply #69 on: November 27, 2020, 07:00:25 PM »
Progress today..



Mike
Doing way too much to list...

Jeff Schumaker

  • Museum Member
  • Dispatcher
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,162
    • View Profile
Re: Electric Building - Official Work Thread
« Reply #70 on: November 28, 2020, 12:29:42 PM »
Not much more shingling to do, it appears.

Jeff S.
Hey Rocky, watch me pull a moose trout out of my hat.

Stewart "Start" Rhine

  • Museum Member
  • Trainmaster
  • *******
  • Posts: 2,928
    • View Profile
Re: Electric Building - Official Work Thread
« Reply #71 on: November 28, 2020, 08:19:52 PM »
With the window casing and trim installed, the shingles on the north / turntable side were finished today.  The next step will be to prime and finish paint the window sashes which will happen in a couple of days after the glazing sets up.  The sashes should be in place and the hardware installed by mid-week.

Mike Fox

  • Museum Member
  • Empire Builder
  • ********
  • Posts: 5,173
    • View Profile
Re: Electric Building - Official Work Thread
« Reply #72 on: November 28, 2020, 08:47:16 PM »
Mike
Doing way too much to list...

Bill Baskerville

  • Museum Member
  • Dispatcher
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,234
  • Life Member
    • View Profile
Re: Electric Building - Official Work Thread
« Reply #73 on: November 28, 2020, 11:03:37 PM »
Dad Burn, that electric building looks really good now.  Another job well done by our volunteers.
~ B2 ~ Wascally Wabbit & Gofer ~

Jeff Schumaker

  • Museum Member
  • Dispatcher
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,162
    • View Profile
Re: Electric Building - Official Work Thread
« Reply #74 on: November 29, 2020, 10:46:04 AM »
It's been a long time since I've heard the term "Dad Burn" used.  ???

Jeff S.
Hey Rocky, watch me pull a moose trout out of my hat.