Top of the Mountain

[Matthew Gustafson]

Wheres the Top Of The Mountain sign? I dont know which white sign it is?

[James Patten]

It is about 490 feet from the last culvert on the graded ROW to the approximate location of the Clark Crossing, which is where the main line really starts to dip downgrade.  This is from a measurement taking walk that we did for our plan to the Town this spring.  I did not measure where the switch was to go, unfortunately.  As to siding past the road, I'd guess in the neighborhood of 90 feet.

[Dwight Winkley]

On the right side of the track (East Side, you are looking North) you will see a long white sign with 2 support posts. This sign is between the track and the large Oak tree on the right. That is the approx. location of the switch. You can see the location of the long rotted ties on both the main line and spur track.  We are guessing the switch location by looking at the drainage ditches. When the wide two track right of way (row) becomes one track. the switch location is near by.

A "siding" is double ended=two switches. A "spur" is single ended, has only one switch.

On the WW&F the ruling grade (steepest grade) was Southbound. The switch was a south switch. You don't want the cars on a siding to roll north back down the steep grade.

I was told that the southbound train after stopping and picking up passengers, milk, ect. at Headtide Station would back north. Than head south past the station at speed in order to try and make the grade without having to double the hill.

[John Kokas]

Great to have a better picture to look at.  From my own construction eyes, it appears to be enough room for a run-around.  Wayne - I like the idea of a kiosk (you did say moose-shaped ) as that could be skid-mounted, thereby making it a temporary/portable structure.  Planning boards look at this differently from permanent structures.  But I would add that if a joint WWF/Conservancy proposal was pitched there would be a far greater chance of a planning board saying "yes".  Especially when you can make the point that this type of trail entry requires no cars or parking lots.............

The one other point I'd make is if the crest at TOM is too steep, why not just "shave" a few feet in elevation off of it.  Now I don't know what the geologic profile is directly underneath, but if it is not a solid granite pinnical, then it is definitely doable - the rock we could use for the washout.

[Vincent "Lightning" LeRow]

However, I don't think it would work as a staging point for materials to repair the washouts or the slide. They are both a good distance north, requiring transfer to other modes to get them to the right place

We could lay light temporary track to wherever we wanted you know.  Say something allong the lines of every fourth tie and 33# rail.   then we could acces anything we wanted.  It's verry eficent to bring things in by the trainload, and the old fashined RRs did it all of the time for construction sites before a heavier more permanant maineline or siding went in.  All for earthmoving.  we can get a load or two of dirt dumped for us at alna center and then handle the washout ourselves, but the landslide seems to be a bit more of a touchy situation. 

[Matthew Gustafson]

Does anyone have photos of the two washout locations on the right of way from TOTM to Route 218?

[Wayne Laepple]

The reconstruction of the slide area is going to require a couple of hundred tons of fill material. Our flatcars can haul 10 or 12 tons per trip. Do the math. Then we have to unload and place the material in the right place. Sure, we could do it with picks and shovels and wheelbarrows, but that doesn't make sense. And the work necessary to lay "temporary track" 1000 or 1200 feet is just as difficult and intensive as building permanent track. As Mike has noted, if heavy equipment is moved in to rebuild the embankment, it must get back out the same way.

In addition, where does the manpower to do all this work of building temporary track and repairing the big slide come from? As has been noted elsewhere on this forum, except during the spring and fall Track Meets, especially in high summer, rounding up enough folks to man the station and run the trains is sometimes problematic. 

The contractor who removes the big stumps and helps lay new culvert pipes leaves the subgrade smooth enough to drive on, so why not take advantage of heavy equipment for this project? Sure, we might be able to complete this exercise ourselves, but how much time and energy would be spent here that could be more profitably engaged elsewhere? Remember, we're talking about weekends here, and quite a few of them, one right after the other, to do this kind of a job.

[Ira Schreiber]

Wayne, you are spot on.
There are some projects best left to the professionals and this is one of them. For all the reasons stated and a few more, such as liability of the repairs.
We are railroaders, not landscapers.

[Stewart "Start" Rhine]

Wayne and Ira are right on the money.  The repair should be done by a licensed professional contractor.  As stated in my earlier post, I was involved in a washout repair project on a standard gauge line in PA.  The whole process from permits to the track going back in took over a year.  One of the biggest reasons is liability, both during construction and running passengers through the area when the job is done.   A licensed contractor often covers the required permits and has the insurance to cover the construction phase.  Our museum insurance carrier will look more favorably on contracted repairs to such a large rebuild.   I've been involved in washout repair since 1975.  I walked all through the area and the bottom of the washout is on a bed of clay.   The new fill will have to begin further down on bedrock/ledge.  That requires heavy equipment to excavate below the level of existing forest floor.  I don't see how we can do the work our selves.   

[Allan Fisher]

Everyone has gotten way ahead of the curve here. Let's not lock a solution into stone yet. I am still hopeful that with volunteer professional and Maine DEP & DOT advise we can manage this work by ourselves with judicious use of contractors where necessary.

Everyone is very aware of passenger safety and liability issues - but we do not want to start wringing our hands and lock ourselves into an endless pit (sic)  of money that can be avoided if we continue to follow good, conservative Maine and standard railroad practices.

Again I want to remind those on this discussion forum that some issues are best left to private discussions, and also that of the present forum users, a good percentage are not even members of the museum.

[Mike Fox]

With that said, no matter what is done there, it is going to require some planning and input from outside sources. It's just another obstacle we need to deal with to keep heading North.

[Wayne Laepple]

I'm at least somewhat to blame for this thread veering away from the Top of the Mountain and into a discussion of the slide repairs, which are really two totally different subjects. My whole point was to encourage a discussion of how we can make Top of the Mountain workable as a temporary stopping point for our trains. North of Alna Center, it is the next logical point to terminate trains, and it may be the end of the line for a year or more. I was interested in what people thought about how it could work.

So far, I think John's ideas about promoting it as a point for people to detrain to hike down to the conservancy areas are worth considering. I think an information kiosk about the conservancy's work and the railroad's plans to continue construction south down the mountain is a fine idea. We also might want to consider a small shelter or shed where hikers could wait for the train, especially during showers (or snow flurries). Such a shelter could later be moved down to Route 218.

In my mind, the value of this discussion site is that it allows those of us who are too far away to appear at Sheepscot on a regular basis involved. Rather than shutting discussions down, those "in the know" and in official capacities should be reading what we have to say and engaging us in useful conversations. Frankly, I am disappointed that only a very few of "the elect" take the time to read these discussions, and even fewer take the time to respond. I understand that a great deal of time can easily be wasted on the Internet, but it is also a valuable communication tool that museum officials should be using to greater advantage.

[Ira Schreiber]

I believe it is North down the mountain towards highway 218.

[Matthew Gustafson]

So far, I think John's ideas about promoting it as a point for people to detrain to hike down to the conservancy areas are worth considering. I think an information kiosk about the conservancy's work and the railroad's plans to continue construction south down the mountain is a fine idea. We also might want to consider a small shelter or shed where hikers could wait for the train, especially during showers (or snow flurries). Such a shelter could later be moved down to Route 218.

I do have to agree with you on using the TOTM as a station stop because it's a good way to use the new track much more than having it not used for most of the time!

[John Kokas]

Good points Allan & Wayne,

IMHO - before we jump into the "contractor" mode, it would serve us well to take a step back and really look at the situation carefully.  We have time as the trestle will take a considerable amount of time and money to accomplish.  I think the best route is to have a select group; whom have extensive backgrounds in construction (especially RR's and highways) get together and make a close examination of the situation(s), and then recommend a course of action to the BOD.  I still believe that the Military option may present the most cost effective solution for us although most probably not the fastest. I would suggest that the BOD authorize an advisory group be formed and that they be tasked to make an on-site determination and written recommendations for the solution - to include estimated costs. 

In the meantime I think that TOM should be the short-term end of line but that it should be developed into a station stop to be compatible with the goals of the conservancy.  It's a win-win situation for both organizations.  Realize that this is not necessarily "prototypical", but prototypical is not always compatible with today's reality.  Long term sucess for the organization is directly linked to ridership, store sales, and museum growth.