Author Topic: Sheepscot Site Plan Proposal  (Read 2879 times)

Ed Lecuyer

  • Administrator
  • Superintendent
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,591
    • View Profile
    • wwfry.org
Sheepscot Site Plan Proposal
« on: January 25, 2009, 08:42:47 PM »
MODERATORS NOTE:
Sheepscot Site Plan Proposal has been converted from the pre-July 2008 WW&F Discussion Forum.
Some formatting may have been removed or modified from the original postings that appear quoted in this topic.
Information contained within this post may be superseded by more recent postings and conversations.

James Patten wrote:
Quote
After several months of discussions, the Long Range Planning group has come up with some ideas for how we can develop the Boudin and Percival properties.  I'm putting this here for all to review, and will be bringing it to the Museum tomorrow for people there to review.  Comments are welcome.  At the last board meeting the board requested that we present this at the next meeting, which is a week from now.

First is the map.  Many thanks go out to Frank Knight for his patient renderings of our ideas.  There's two maps: one showing the whole property up to Jayne's Way Crossing, the second shows a close-up of the area near the road (which is where all the action is).




The small squares are 10 feet across; the larger squares 50 feet.  The heavy blue line going through the map is the stream, the heavy green lines to either side is about where the gully border is.

You'll notice some large letters scattered throughout.  These letters are idea points which are described below.

A. Parking Lot
This parking area is what is being cut off this winter. Nominally, 65 cars can be parked here; the parking spaces are sized for SUVs (10 foot spacing) and can be squeezed up to store more cars. The design also allows RVs to move around. The lot has been designed in such a way that northward expansion for more cars is possible without major distruption. Lane A is a single parking lane, while Lanes B and C are double parking lanes. There is a single exit point at the south end of the lot.

Option: Nudge Lane A westward some, and Lanes B and C eastward some, to make a wider Lane A. 2 or 3 RVs and other long vehicles could be parked on the eastern side of Lane A.

B. Entry Road
The Percival driveway will become the entry road into the parking lot. The road will need to be widened somewhat. It takes a swing to the west once it gets beyond the house.

C. Leach Field & Road Access
The leach field location has been staked out, at the north side of the former "Percival Purchase". A road will be constructed to the leach field in such a manner that the road and its crossing of the stream will be re-used by a future southerly spur from the mainline for car storage.

D. Restrooms
The restroom facilities are intended to fit in the corner between the north side of the entry road and the east side of the parking lot. The building depicted is a placeholder until an actual proposal is determined. The minimum size and number of toilets is determined by law, and will govern what we are able to do.

At present time it is hoped the restroom building can resemble a WW&F agency station.  This is still being researched.

E. Percival House
At present, the Percival House is on the outskirts of public space at Sheepscot. However, with the addition of parking and restrooms nearby, the house will be right in the middle of public accessible space. Therefore using the first floor of the house as public space is recommended, although what form it will take will require continued discussion.

F. Roundhouse
The roundhouse will be a three-stall roundhouse based on the one at Wiscasset. There will be one run-through bay, the track from which will lead to the car storage tracks. The center bay will be longer. Behind the roundhouse there can be an area for coal storage, as well as an ash pit for dumping the fire. The roundhouse ought to be built of fire-resistant materials, such as brick or steel.

G. Turntable
The turntable will be a 40-foot Howe Truss table, long enough to handle any car or locomotive. Exact positioning of the turntable depends on a yet-to-be conducted survey. The current Track 7 will swing westward to become the turntable lead track, and the remaining track beside the machine shop would be lifted.

Option: Run a track westwardly off the turntable, buried, into the parking area. This track would not be used for storage, but for loading and unloading of cars from a Landoll.

H. Blacksmithy
Post 1907, the Wiscasset roundhouse had a lean-to structure attached to one side. This structure would become a blacksmithy. It too should be constructed of fire resistant materials.

I. Coal Storage
The coal storage area can be moved from in front of the shop to somewhere behind the roundhouse. Location of this depends on accessibility of large dump trucks.

J. Car Storage
Two tracks would be constructed for covered car storage, north of the roundhouse and accessed from both a run-through bay of the roundhouse and a track south from the main line. The main line switch will be far enough south that a 3-car train and locomotive can fit between the switch and Jayne's Way Crossing; this way the Yard Limit will not need to include the crossing. This track will occupy the road that was constructed over the stream for the construction of the leach field. It is intended that the track be constructed in a cut through the embankment next to the main line.

The car shed should be styled similar to the original W&Q car shed in Wiscasset. While it is likely to be steel construction, it can be sheathed in board and batten or other period-appropriate materials to retain the original look.

K. Handicapped Parking
Several handicapped parking spots have been placed, both in front of the restrooms, and on Cross Road in front of the shops.

L. Shop Extension
A southerly expansion of the car shop has been planned. This extension would extend the first 3 bays of the car shop 30 - 40 feet south toward the road.

M. Walkway
A handicap-friendly walkway extends from the parking lot to the restrooms, then past the turntable to the platform. These paths could conceivably continue around the perimeter of the car shop area as well.

N. Landscaping
The area between the shop, the turntable, and Cross Road should be landscaped. The area south of the turntable will no longer be a parking area, it should be grassed over, and also should be fenced so that wayward children do not accidentally fall into the pit. Likewise the road to behind the roundhouse should be gated so that visitors are not confused as to how to get to parking.

Trees can be planted in between the lanes of the parking lot, but we may want to avoid this is as it locks in the location of the lanes.

O. Drainage
Originally the western side of the shop area was conceived as drainage. With the addition of new structures care must be taken that this original drainage is preserved. Catch basins should be added for public safety.

P. Power and Lighting
Even though the Museum has few nighttime events, the need to have lights for the parking lot and other spaces from the lot to the station is there. Planning for lights on poles and in other places will have to be considered.

Additionally, all these buildings and lights will need power. It is recommended that power from CMP be routed through one building (such as the Percival House), then be distributed via underground cables or conduit to all places that need it. This will preserve the aura of the early 20th century around the station area, and will allow unhindered movement of rail eqiupment on trucks.

elecuyer replied:
Quote
Nice job. Congratulations on the hard work.

Some questions:
Once the Car Shed is constructed, how will access to the leach field be done for pumping and maintenance?

Also, it looks like (as drawn) the Handicap ramp into the Percival House will interfere with the new basement opening. Has that idea been scraped, or is there some other error.

Finally, with the Percival House becoming (eventually) public space, can/should the restrooms be placed in the House, rather than in an external building? (Do the restrooms themselves need to be away from the well, or is it just the leach field that has to be so far away?)

-Ed Lecuyer

James Patten replied:
Quote
The leach field is the recipient of "gray water", and doesn't get pumped and shouldn't need maintenance.  The septic tank, which holds material, would be located near the bathroom itself.

Zack figured how to build the basement opening so that the handicap ramp doesn't need to move.  I'm guessing that there will probably also be a handicap-accessible entrance to the house from the back (west), but all of that depends on the final outcome of discussions.

As for the restrooms, they cannot be within 100 feet of a well.  The entire Percival house is within that 100 foot area.  And there's also a well in the yard for the water tank, so that pretty much limited us to away from the yard area.

Ira Schreiber replied:
Quote
A very good first draft.

I look at 45' tour buses as the norm for parking lots for an obvious  (I am a bus driver) reason. There needs to be wide swing areas as well as pull through parking. Parallel parking takes up too much space. The area needs to be segregated from RV parking, as the longer buses need the longer space. RV's tend to be a real pain for bus navigation in parking lots. Because of the 45'bus  length and potential congestion, there should be provision for a separate ingress and egress to Cross Road.

The parking surface needs to be strong enough to support a 25 + ton vehicle in all weather.

The handicap spaces at the south end of the shop should be eliminated as these require a vehicle to back directly into Cross road. This is a no-no.
There may be enough room to make these 45* angle spaces, which will make backing safer.

A definitive fencing system needs to be in place for crowd control, as stated in the proposal.

Signage becomes very important and my many years in sign and lighting will be available.

With high energy cost, high efficiency lighting will be very important. Basically this means no incandescent lighting in public areas. Historic type buildings should  be accomidated, if required.

Just some of my take.
Again, Good Job.
Ira

John McNamara replied:
Quote
Ira,

Do you happen to know the typical turning radius for a 45' bus?

Thanks!
-John

Bill Sample replied:
Quote
Thank you for sharing the Site Plan with us.  Thanks to all that contributed to it.  Knowing the WW&F organization, this plan is quite realistic and doable.  Can't wait to see the roundhouse!
I have a few suggestions / considerations that may already have been thought of, but just in case they weren't...
- Motor Coach Tours should be accommodated- I think they will become even more popular in the future.  Use a parking lot option that will allow the manuvering and parking of a couple of tour busses.  I have been told that tour operators network a lot and the ease of access can affect business.  Also a drop off area near the station might be useful for those who don't need to use the new toilet facility after leaving the bus.
- The parking lot and its perimeter should be kept free of permanent barriers as much as possible - just think of two words:  snow plowing.  Make it easy to opening things up for any winter operations that would need public parking.
- The siding to the parking lot option is a good one - make it as painless as possible to swap equipment on and off of trailers.  The drivers will be most appreciative!

James Patten replied:
Quote
Frank Knight acquired a book which had turning radii in it.  The book had this for busses:

Quote
BUS (Single Unit Bus; minimum outside radius = 42.0-feet; minimum inside radius = 24.4-feet; total length = 40-feet) NOTE: Fire Trucks will require an outside radius of 45.0-feet.

I do not recall whether his turning radii was for RVs or busses (Frank will have to answer that one).  As it was we eliminated a number of spots so that larger vehicles can turn.

The handicapped parking area on Cross Road can double as a bus pull-in during weekday charters.  I suppose the Cross Road parking could be overflow handicapped parking, leaving the area for larger vehicles if they show up during operating hours.

Stephen Hussar replied:
Quote
Awesome. Great job to everyone on the LRPC! And to Frank Knight too!

Question about the cutting: can some of the mature trees be left intact? I posted this picture of Wayne's last year, which he took in a state park in PA as an example of a great looking parking area. Sure looks nice with its mature trees separating the different areas...


Ira Schreiber replied:
Quote
The standard highway/charter coach is 45'. The chart listing is for a 40' bus. The MINIMUM radius is 48' for a 45' bus. The other consideration is trees, the bane of buses. They scratch and scrape and need to be kept away from turning radii.

I like the illustrated Penna. treed parking and I have used several like this lot in New Hampshire.
Notice that the parking is all angle parking. This is much safer than head on parking.

Think about eliminating the center core parking and make that for the bus area. This leaves the bus driver more options for getting out and provides the turning radii needed. Also, do NOT use stones/rocks for lane markers as they tear up the lower sides of buses. Logs seem to work better and are more forgiving.

Keep up the brain storming as we are on the right track (pun intended)

Ira

Mike Fox replied:
Quote
I see coal storage behind the engine house. Is there going to be enough access for a truck to get in there and unload? Save us having to handle it.
Mike

Bill Reidy replied:
Quote
Nice job by the Long Range Planning Committee!  After seeing the earlier plans, it's apparent a lot of thought and hard work has gone into this draft.

Some thoughts on the plan:

-- Rather than place handicapped parking along Cross Road, could some HP spots be placed along the eastern side of Entry Road B?  As suggested by James, some of the space in front of the shop could be used as a bus pull-in to drop off passengers.  This also places the spaces closer to the restrooms, while still in a reasonable distance to the station.

-- Where do we envision setting up tents and exhibits for special events, such as the annual picnic?  It looks like the area south of the turntable and west of the shop building will work well for this with the landscaping suggested by the LRPC.  If the HP spots are moved to the side of the entry road, landscaping could be extended along the Cross Road side of the shop building most of the way to the station platform.  The only drawback is the area south of the turntable is blocked from views of trains arriving and departing the station.

-- Should the exit road from the main parking lot be centered on one of the parking lanes (such as lane B)?

-- I also wondered about the clearance for coal trucks, Mike.

-- I really like the placement of the turntable and roundhouse, facing Cross Road and the entry drive -- visually very interesting to the public.

Bill

Ira Schreiber replied:
Quote
If there is only one road into parking, a large tour bus or RV will fight with cars for the space. The use of two roads takes care of this potential problem.

Bill R.'s suggestion on moving the HP spaces makes good sense, too.

James Patten replied:
Quote
I'm going to try to answer questions/comments in order of posting, starting with Steve H's.

Trees: Zack is against keeping any mature trees in the lot, because of falling danger of branches or the tree itself.  Plus I don't think any line up nicely with anything else.  What he has no problem with is planting young trees after the lot's been built.  Eventually the trees will be mature.

Busses/parking lot: I would doubt we have any intent of paving the lot, and therefore how people park can be changed easily.  If we expect a bus on a particular day, it should be no problem to cordon off an area for it to park in.    As it is we have a nominal 65 parking spaces which doesn't seem like much for the space it takes up.

Frank, can you answer Ira regarding turning radius?

Coal storage: I consider it very likely that the area behind the roundhouse will be all road-accessible.  There's more than 20' mapped between roundhouse and car barn.  Therefore a tractor/trailer of coal should be able to get in between the two buildings to drop its load.

Handicap parking: theoretically there's no reason why spots could not be set up on one side of the entry road, although there is the issue of drainage.  The road is being widened quite a bit and the existing drainage ditch will have to go somewhere.

Tent setup: I think this is something we sort of forgot about.  There should be a fair amount of room between the area south of the turntable and the area south of the Percival house for tents and so forth.  With the extension of the shop we're kind of eliminating where the tents go.

Parking exit road: No reason why it cannot be centered on lane B.  Ira mentioned two separate roads from the lot, which I am opposed to.  Traffic control should be easier with only one egress to deal with, instead of two.  Likely we'll only have one volunteer dealing with that, who will not want to run back and forth between exits.

bperch replied:
Quote
I believe the machine shop (Bay 4) should be extended also.  It is pretty cramped already and even if there is provision in the other extension or buildings for machinery, there is never enough room.  I believe the plan is well thought out and I look forward to the final tweaked layout.

Bernie

Ira Schreiber replied:
Quote
James,
The issue is entering to park. Once into the area and parked, no further guidance will be needed to exit. Therefore, you would only need one volunteer at peak times.
I have been in many of the New England's attractions and I have seen the good, the bad and the ugly.
We have the opportunity to do it right the first time.
As a lot fills and there is a bus in the lot, the parkers will fill up every space, marked or not. This results in jams, short tempers and the chance for a fender bender. We do not need this.

fjknight replied:
Quote
Quote
I see coal storage behind the engine house. Is there going to be enough access for a truck to get in there and unload? Save us having to handle it.
Mike

The gap between the roundhouse and the storage shed is 17.5' which should be big enough for a coal truck to fit.

Quote
The standard highway/charter coach is 45'. The chart listing is for a 40' bus. The MINIMUM radius is 48' for a 45' bus. The other consideration is trees, the bane of buses. They scratch and scrape and need to be kept away from turning radii.
Ira

All of the turns are 24' for the inside radius and 48' for the outside radius. The largest outside radius in the chart I found was for an RV pulling a boat on  a trailer and that was listed as 50' for the minimum outside radius.

Quote
If there is only one road into parking, a large tour bus or RV will fight with cars for the space. The use of two roads takes care of this potential problem.

Originally it was drawn with two access roads but this was eliminated early on as having too many access points to Cross Road. I would actually like to take each lane of the parking lot to Cross Road so the bottom of the parking lot would function like the top.

This discussion is good. I have just one request that we try to arrive at a consensus before I start redrawing.

Frank

Bill Reidy replied:
Quote
James wrote:

Quote
There should be a fair amount of room between the area south of the turntable and the area south of the Percival house for tents and so forth.

I'd be a bit concerned about using the Percival front lawn for a large event.  A lot of foot traffic crossing back and forth over the entry drive could be a safety issue.

Bill

Josh Botting replied:
Quote
Has the long range planning committe considerd the cost of running all of the additional lighting and heating of the various buildings which will require heat? Would it make sense to consolidate our buildings to increase effiency and prevent having to maintain multiple heating systems.

Also will there be a break between the yard and the parking lot, or when you return on the train will you be looking out into a parking lot?

Wayne Laepple replied:
Quote
To the Long Range Planning Committee: hearty congratulations. You've done a fine job, and you've had to sift through a lot of information and even more opinions from a lot of folks.

So here are a few more opinions and comments:
A. If access to and from the parking lot included one-way signage, visitors could get in and out on their own. And if the short single end "A" parking aisle closest to Cross Road was eliminated, there would be space to park tour buses perpendicular to Cross Road.
B. In my opinion, access to parking should not be via the current Percival driveway. That access could be chained or gated off except for access to the shop, roundhouse and coal yard. I believe the Boudin lot is wide enough for an entry road near the back of the Percival house and an exit at the west end of the property. Eliminating traffic on the Percival driveway would also be safer for visitors.
F. The turntable and roundhouse should be located further north so that visitors can see the turntable from the station platform. This would also allow the present parking lot to become a lawn area for special event tents and so forth.
J.If the turntable and roundhouse are moved north, this would necessitate moving the carhouse north and perhaps a little further west. Perhaps one track could continue through the carhouse to a permanent ramp for truck access. I really like the idea of a cut through the little hill north of the section house.
K. I think the handicap parking off Cross Road should be used for drop-off and bus unloading only.
L. I agree with Bernie that the machine shop should be extended to match the rest of the shop. The current machine shop is quite crowded, and less-frequently used equipment could be installed in the extension, or it could also be a separate woodshop or storage area.

These are all relatively minor tweaks to the plan. I am enormously pleased to see the proposed plan, and as James noted, there are always a few things that just don't occur to folks. Now, everyone go out and buy powerball tickets so we can get this done!

Ira Schreiber replied:
Quote
I just looked up the radius for 40' and 45' MCI coaches.

48' is too tight!

Turning Radius:  D4505: 47.00 ft - 14.33 m = 45' coach
D4005: 44.70 ft - 13.62 m = 40' coach

Ira

Stephen Hussar replied:
Quote
why not just create a "breakdown lane" along Cross Rd, just outside of the parking area for a couple of buses?

James Patten replied:
Quote
The rationale for using the Percival driveway as the entry to the parking lot is this: visitor drives by, sees a railroad station and decides to visit.  Drives into the driveway and excitement builds as they get a view to the sights before they move on to the parking lot.  They exit to the rear of the house because they're now exhausted from all the excitement and can't take any more.

As for the turntable location, I believe Frank has a 15-degree curve into it.  The final location will need to be determined by survey, as all of our turnouts are unique and Frank had a hard time modeling it.  The TT may be able to go north, but I wouldn't think by much and not without completely redoing the yard.

I'll let Jason comment on the shop extension, as he's much closer to that project than I am.

The LRP did not try to determine costs for anything, or how much will be added to fixed costs.

Quote
Also will there be a break between the yard and the parking lot, or when you return on the train will you be looking out into a parking lot?

I don't think I understand this question.

medry replied:
Quote
Josh raises a good point:

Quote
Also will there be a break between the yard and the parking lot, or when you return on the train will you be looking out into a parking lot?

I think what he's getting at is that we need to make sure we preserve the aesthetics of the museum area itself. The illusion of the rural turn-of-the-century railroad can be broken if, when coming into the station on the train, you see rows of SUVs looming in the background. By keeping some of the existing tree growth as a buffer zone between the lot and the museum area, you could mitigate this anachronistic intrusion.

It seems that you could always err on the side of clearing fewer trees at the start. It's faster to cut a few more trees later if needed than to grow in new ones!

This aesthetics issue also comes into play in the issue of where to site a special events tent, where it would be nice if there was space for it more within the museum area.

And one unrelated comment. The roundhouse is designed with 3 bays, which I guess is sufficient for the current motive power. But is there room for additional bays to be added, for instance when #11 is built?

Overall I think this is a very exciting plan that will take the museum to a whole new level.  Well done!

-- Mark E

Wayne Laepple replied:
Quote
While I appreciate the wit of James' rationale for the entry road in giving visitors a glimpse of the roundhouse and turntable as they enter the parking area, I do think it important to maintain a separation between the aura of 1908 we try to maintain at Sheepscot and the reality of 2008 as found in the parking lot.

A screen of trees between the Percival house and the parking area does that, but if the entry road is between the shop and the house, the illusion is shattered. If traffic enters the parking lot just beyond the tree line between the house and the lot, buses and handicapped could drop off right at the entrance to the path, also near the restrooms. Buses could then loop around to the westernmost side of the lot to park, while cars would continue north to the more dense parking area. The exit from the lot could be near the western edge of the property.

I would also note that the current plan may be going overboard with handicap parking spaces. There may be a recommended ratio of handicap spaces to regular spaces to which we should adhere.

Jason M Lamontagne replied:
Quote
Tree clearing-

I agree with the idea of leaving mature trees- after a lot of discussion with Zack, another of his concerns is soft-wood trees.  He says that is what is mostly back there- and these drip sap and are more prone to blow-over than hardwoods.  He'd seen a similar photograph of a wooded parking lot and immediately pointed out all the trees in the lot being hardwood.

As much as I didn't like this- I didn't know how to argue.  Zack did agree to the concept of re-planting what we wanted where we wanted it- but this looses some flare.

I think we should keep as much existing tree canopy up as we can between the lot and the Percival house.

Turntable-

We only barely squeezed it in where it is- due to curvature.  As James says- moving it north would require a complete rebuilding of the existing yard.  Originally we were thinking of the roundhouse being closer to the turntable- but with it 35 ft away, as shown, we thought it was a nice compromise having the turntabe so far south (i.e. at least the roundhouse it tucked up further north).

Roundhouse-

We did figure on locomotive space in there and figured on 9, 10, 11 and 52.  The extended second stall does the trick.

Shop-

One of the major goals of the shop extension was to restore the 3 bay look of the building.  As for interior space- there was some talk of re-arranging the interior use in a number of ways, including finishing current bays 2&3 and heating them, combining that space with the new southerly space, or leaving it seperate and heating it only at times- we'd like to support the roof of the extension with trusses to reduce or eliminate posts there- and the some or the entire machine shop may move into the extension, with the existing machine shop being for wood equipement, or some variation there of.

Yard-

The yard track layout was carefully considered here.  We considered for a long time completely redesigning the current yard- and seperately considered flattening the hill above the sectionhouse.  When we settled on turntable/roundhouse location (allowing us to leave the yard), decided on only making a cut for the car shed track (giving a feel of what the orig. rr would have done)- and provided the connector track- it all came together as a reasonably compact, convenient yard.  On a typical day, a train won't even enter the old yard- leaving the roundhouse, getting it's train at the shed, and going to the station.

see ya
Jason

Bill Reidy replied:
Quote
After thinking about the plan overnight and reviewing other folks comments this morning, I'm warming to the idea of eliminating the entry drive between the shop building and the Percival house.  I agree with the idea that we want to maintain some sort of visual break between the parking area and the museum grounds.  Eliminating the entry drive would also allow us to have a much large contiguous landscaped area between the shops and the house for special events, such as the annual picnic.  This location has some good points:

- The food tent could be placed near the Percival house, which I imagine would be helpful for the food crew.
- The area is next to Cross Road, so the public passing by will see the activity and encourage them to stop in.
- Being next to Cross Road, it would be easier to bring in special outdoor exhibits, such as stationary steam engines or antique cars.

There is one bad point with this location:  it is isolated from the action on the railroad -- the shop building blocks much of this area from the station.  Unfortunately, there really isn't a good alternate location to stage events, unless something could be done along the northwest side of the existing yard (north of the blacksmithy).

If the entry drive is eliminated, more consideration will need to be made for busses in the parking lot, such as providing space for busses to turn around.

I really like the overall design of the track plan.  I think the turntable and roundhouse are reasonably placed, with visibility from the street and the special events area.  And the new tracks blend in well with the existing yard.  I'm hard pressed to see any significant benefit the museum would get by altering the existing yard to adjust locations of the turntable, roundhouse or car storage.

Regarding the car storage building, I haven't done the measuring, so I'll ask:  how many cars can the proposed two-track building hold?  I assume its size factors in what our planned roster will look like in the next 10 years or so?

Bill

Wayne Laepple replied:
Quote
The carhouse appears to be about 130 feet long by 30 feet wide. That would accommodate three passenger cars or four freight cars on each track. The car shop would also be available for winter covered storage of about six cars, depending of course on what's happening in the shop.

While I'm at it, should there be a fourth track off the turntable for a shed to house the Model T railcar?

Mike Fox replied:
Quote
Frank,
Any radius figures in your plan maker for 18 wheelers? Coal is delivered in a dump trailer and depending on the type, the whole unit could be from 50 to 65 feet long. It is possible to gain access through some handicap spaces if the coal is delivered while no one is there. But to access that, entry and exit might need to be made out the current Percival driveway.

Joe Fox replied:
Quote
The layout of the land looks very nice, not to crowded, and yet just right to look like a typical 2' gauge rail yard back in the hay day. Now, where do the volunteers park? On the front lawn in front of the Percival home?

Joe

James Patten replied:
Quote
I'm guessing that #51 and #53 (the railcar) will spend their nights in one of the bays of the car shop, or in the machine shop, depending on activity.  They are/will be relatively easy to fire up, and like the warmth of a heated space in the winter.

I can appreciate separation of modern from historic, with regards to the parking lot.  Before the house property came up, the parking lot would have required people to come back to Cross Road to walk down to the museum, and we would have had separate entrance/exit drive onto the road.  I suppose we could go back to that (the two drives) and have just a pathway between parking lot and museum.

I think I agree with Wayne, that we went overboard on handicap parking.  I don't think I've ever seen any more than 1 or 2 handicapped vehicles in our lot.

Clearly the LRP committee will have to rediscuss the parking.

fjknight replied:
Quote
Quote
Frank,
Any radius figures in your plan maker for 18 wheelers? Coal is delivered in a dump trailer and depending on the type, the whole unit could be from 50 to 65 feet long. It is possible to gain access through some handicap spaces if the coal is delivered while no one is there. But to access that, entry and exit might need to be made out the current Percival driveway.

Here is what the doc says for 18 wheelers:
WB-40  (Intermediate Semi-Trailer; minimum outside radius = 40.0-feet; minimum inside radius = 18.9-feet; total length = 50-feet)

WB-50  (Large Semi-Trailer Combination; minimum outside radius = 45.0-feet; minimum inside radius = 19.2-feet; total length = 55-feet)

WB-60  (Semi-trailer Full Trailer Combination; minimum outside radius = 45.0-feet; minimum inside radius = 22.2-feet; total length = 65-feet)

WB-62  (Interstate Semi-Trailer; minimum outside radius = 45.0-feet; minimum inside radius = 9.1-feet; total length = 69-feet)

Our outside radius is 48 feet and inside radius is 24 feet so it should accommodate all of the above vehicles.

Frank

Wayne Laepple replied:
Quote
According to information I found on-line this evening, we should have a minimum of 3 handicap-accessible parking spaces in a lot of the size we envision. I suggest the five spaces in the northeast corner of the lot at Aisle A be designated as three handicap spaces, with the proper spacing in between to permit people with wheelchair-lift-equipped vans to enter and exit. These are close to the restrooms and the path to the station.

Ira Schreiber replied:
Quote
Here is the specs for ADA parking.
Three spaces seem to be the magic number.

http://www.usdoj.gov/crt/ada/restripe.pdf

Ira

John McNamara replied:
Quote
It seems to me that we have been wise to put some HP spaces near the Percival house and some near the station, as both are access points to our "business". Even if we reduce the quantity of spaces, we should have some at both of these locations.

Mike Fox replied:
Quote
Thanks Frank. Should work fine as is then.
Mike

Ira Schreiber replied:
Quote
Remember...
Semi's bend, 45' buses do not.

Mike Fox replied:
Quote
I know that all to well Ira. Even though they bend, they still don't fit into places those buses do.
Mike

mikechoochoo replied:
Quote
Hi,
Over all the plan looks good, it's easy to see that a lot of thought went into it.
I drive semi and I have driven buses. Even a 5 foot increase in the radis on the inside of a curve makes a big difference in getting a large vehicle around a corner. That is to say make the road wider at the restroom curve by using a larger radis on the inside to allow the rear wheels or trailer wheels to track over farther.
_________________
Mike Nix in Minnesota

Wayne Laepple replied:
Quote
Reading over Jason's comments on the previous page, I was thinking about his thoughts concerning reconfiguring the shop. He mentions the possibility of heating part of the building. Which led me to wonder whether Bay One wouldn't be the logical space to heat, since it is already enclosed and has the windows along one side for natural light. It also has the advantage of a somewhat lower roof line.

When the shop is extended, the new space behind Bay 1 might be divided into two floors, with a woodworking shop below and a clean room and shop office above. The track in Bay 1 would remain at its current length, and a pair of double doors could be placed at the end for access into the woodshop. Heating could be zoned so that only the area being used is heated.

As Jason suggested, track in Bays 2 and 3 would be extended into the new addition so during the warmer weather, that entire area could be utilized for restoration and replication projects. During the winter, until we build the proposed roundhouse and carbarn, this configuration would still provide shelter to most of our fleet.

Joe Fox replied:
Quote
I thought that Bay 1 was being extended with the rest of the building, and the Machine shop was staying the length it is now?

Joe

Wayne Laepple replied:
Quote
I didn't say anything about extending the machine shop bay, Joe. I said when Bay 1 is extended, don't lengthen the track. Instead, build two floors in the portion of Bay 1 that has been extended. That area would house a woodworking shop on the first floor, with the second floor devoted to a clean room for varnishing interior woodwork and a shop office. From the outside, Bay 1 would look like the rest of the building. Only inside would it look different.

John McNamara replied:
Quote
At least in the short term, I think that the major goal of the building extension is to be able to store all rolling stock under cover. When other storage facilities exist to ease our storage space crunch, Wayne's idea of a second floor in part of Bay 1 would certainly be a good one to consider.

James Patten replied:
Quote
All,

Here's another map, this time with the parking lot separate and the Percival driveway leading to behind the roundhouse.

I wish to stress to everyone that the lot will not be paved, so there will be no lines.  The yellow parking lines you see here are suggestions only; it doesn't have to be the final design.  We can experiment once the parking lot is built.



Here's letter's A - D, which are the changed subjects.  Others may change incrementally (like description in K Handicapped parking) but I did not include them.

Keep in mind this goes to the Board on Friday, so major changes are out.  But I don't think we'll have any major changes anyway.

A. Parking Lot
This parking area is what is being cut off this winter. Nominally, 80 cars can be parked here, along with 4 handicap spots; the parking spaces are sized for SUVs (10 foot spacing) and can be squeezed up to store more cars. The design also allows vehicles with wide turning radii to move around. The lot has been designed in such a way that northward expansion for more cars is possible without major distruption. Lane A is an extra-wide parking lane with bus/RV lots on the east side, while Lanes B and C are double parking lanes. Two access points from Cross Road allow for a separate entrance/exit point.

It should be noted that the lot is expected to be a gravel lot (not paved), so parking spots are somewhat arbitrary. We can have people park straight-on or on a diagonal – and this can be changed around fairly easily to experiment.

B. 15-minute Parking
The area in front of the shop area will become an area for short-term parking, where busses, vans, or special needs vehicles can drop-off/pick up people. It should be at the level of the road.

C. Leach Field & Road Access
The leach field location has been staked out, at the north side of the former "Percival Purchase". A road, extending from the Percival driveway, will be constructed to the leach field in such a manner that the road and its crossing of the stream will be re-used by a future southerly spur from the mainline for car storage.

D. Restrooms
The restroom facilities are intended to fit in-between the car shed/roundhouse, and the east side of the parking lot, north of the Percival House. The building depicted is a placeholder until an actual proposal is determined. The minimum size and number of toilets is determined by law, and will govern what we are able to do. The final location can be adjusted as needed.

At present time it is hoped the restroom building can resemble a WW&F agency station. This is still being researched.

elecuyer replied:
Quote
I like the improvements a lot.

Some comments:
1. Should the restroom now be positioned a little closer to the house, since there is no need for a road there? (Or keep it that way in the event a road is needed in the future.)

2. There was talk about having a track extend from the turntable into a driveway or parking lot for easy load/unload. How will that now be accommodated?

Thanks for sharing this with all of us.

-Ed Lecuyer

Ira Schreiber replied:
Quote
It looks like you took several of the suggestions and they look good.
The parking makes alot of sense, now. Using log curb stops allows the ease of rearranging the parking. I would still look at 45 degree angles for safety's sake.
What is a "placeholder"?
Ira

James Patten replied:
Quote
The restroom was moved a little closer to the house.  As can be seen, there's lots of room to move it around; I think the final location depends on the size of the building.

Running a track toward the parking lot is now a little easier, IMHO.  Plus, we could run a sort of "shuttle" back and forth without worries of a cornfield meet with an auto.  Something fun for the kids.

gordon cook replied:
Quote
The new layout is much better, very nice!
I'm in the camp of those that think that a parking lot is one of the bigger blights on the 21st century landscape. Having the driveway into the lot in front of the house would be a safety issue, as has been pointed out, and wastes the one area we have to create a pleasant grassy area for events, the picnic  tent, and the like.
I love the enginehouse and turntable design, can't wait to 'Armstrong' #9 around!
_________________
Gawdon

Wayne Laepple replied:
Quote
I second the revisions!

It occurs to me that a track coming off the turntable into the lawn area could have several uses: it could provide a spot to load and unload visiting equipment, to display a car or locomotive, or as a track to give handcar rides on during special events.

Mike Fox replied:
Quote
How about eliminating the driveway to the house all together. Have the driveway come in from the parking area. Might eliminate some confusion on the busier days.
Mike

Bill Reidy replied:
Quote
That looks great, James!

Bill

Bill Sample replied:
Quote
The revised plan looks good to me.  Regarding the Percival house driveway I'm sure a couple of posts and a chain with a sign "Parking Next Right" would keep confusion to a minimum.  Maybe use the blocked off driveway to display any visiting antique vehicles.
Once again, thanks to all the members who invested time and effort into the proposal.

James Patten replied:
Quote
Quote
What is a "placeholder"?

By "placeholder", I mean we stuck a box there to indicate a building will go there, but the final size/shape/placement is yet to be determined.  So it's unlikely it will be a 10x40 building.

Joe Fox replied:
Quote
Sorry Wayne, I miss understood what you meant. Thanks for clearing that up for me though.

Joe

Mike Fox replied:
Quote
Ok. Here is a ROUGH drawing of what I was talking about, eliminating the driveway in front of the house. I think this opens the area up more.
Mike



Or another way in, but I don't favor this one.


Wayne Laepple replied:
Quote
I agree the relocated driveway opens up the lawn area more, but wouldn't it be better to have a straight shot back to the roundhouse and carhouse for coal trucks and so forth? As was mentioned above, a couple of ties sunk in the ground with a chain between them would keep wayward vehicles out, and a nice gravel roadway would provide a nice spot to display visiting antique cars, trucks, Lombards, traction engines, etc.

Mike Fox replied:
Quote
Of course another nice display area for that would be between the walkways by the house.
But eliminating the driveway is just a suggestion. The ties with chains might work if they are far enough back from the road to allow room for the trucks to get in with the coal. 20 feet back from the road and atleast 12 feet apart might do it.
Mike

Wayne Laepple replied:
Quote
I was guessing that coal deliveries are scheduled events and someone would be there to remove the chain. I figured the trucker would jack his rig around from Cross Road and back straight back to the coal pile. And the same would happen with a rig delivering or collecting visiting rolling stock. Maybe I'm wrong....

Mike Fox replied:
Quote
The chain would be no problem. Just have a screw hook on each post and a sign hanging from the chain "Do not block Driveway". And then weather someone is there or not, the driver could move the chain and back in. But if the posts are to close together or to close to the road, things could be very tight. I live on a road wider than cross road and to get in my driveway I use all the road and some lawn.
the overhead drawing is great but I am working on something down to earth a little more. Maybe in a few days, I might have something.
Mike

James Patten replied:
Quote
The driveway is already there - I think it's easier (and cheaper) to chain it than to remove it and build another one somewhere else.

The board approved the fundamental plan.  Zack noted that he'd prefer that the restroom building be built with the long axis toward the leach field.

Mike Fox replied:
Quote
Ok. I have come up with a simulated view from the platform, looking West. I did not spend a lot of time on it and just used what I could find. Buildings are not to scale, not to color and not even in the proper shape. But they resemble what it would look like with the buildings in place.  I'll play around later and see about some color.
Mike


NGFan replied:
Quote
Although I like the 2nd rendition much better than the first for parking and people flow, I have this question to pose.  It seems to me that the enginehouse has been effectively "trapped" from any possible expansion due to surrounding drives/track.  What happens if additional engines and/or shop space is needed?  Where does one go?  Food for thought...

John

bperch replied:
Quote
Since I first looked at the plan, the small size of the roundhouse concerned me.  Since I am not involved anyway in this part of the operation I declined to comment even though I commented on extending the machine shop.  Since it was brought up, it should be considered.  Up in Phillips, they have an eight stall roundhouse and I realize everything they do is in that building--storge, car maintenance, locomotive maintenance, etc., it is not currently big enough.  If they had eight more stalls, I'm sure they could fill them too.  Their future carbarn could relieve some of this.

Here in White Haven, the CNJ had a two section roundhouse with separate buildings on opposite sides of the turntable.  I haven't examined the plan that close to see if something like that could be a possibility or acceptable under the long range plan since the original WW&F did not have a roundhouse bigger than three stalls.

Bernie

fjknight replied:
Quote
The roundhouse is the size of the WW&F roundhouse at the upper yard in Wiscasset. I think the intent here is to model the WW&F as much as possible so that we don't lose the look and feel the original railroad.

Frank

Mike Fox replied:
Quote
The three stall engine house is exactly what Frank said. Designed after the original at Wiscasset. And if the railroad needs more space in the future, we can do like the original did and like we have been doing all along. Keep them in the car barn. It is hard for me to envision having more than 3 steam engines. But if that time comes, I'm sure the museum can deal with it. Either with an additional stall or simply storing in one of the other buildings.
Mike

Stewart Rhine replied:
Quote
I like all the plans but the second plan seems best.  Building locations, roads and track all look great.  I think we should keep the house driveway and just chain it off as Mike said.  If it's not used much it will grass over but can still be driven on.  The drive can feed the engine house, coal storage and car shed.  Another access road feeding to the car shed area could be run off the North edge of the parking lot loop.  This could feed to a small volunteer crew parking area.  Train and shop crews could park there.

The only problem I see with all the plans is the lack of side tracks.  There are no stub sidings and there's no team track.   As Wayne said, a track (or two) coming South off of the turntable into the "lawn" should be considered.  If it's covered to the railhead you can drive or mow over it.  It would come in handy.  Also, at least one stub siding (that doesn't feed to a building) should be built along the car storage building.  Wheel sets, etc could be tied down there without blocking something.  I have worked for two shortlines and this is very useful.

James Patten replied:
Quote
I can imagine having more than 3 steam engines, but I would not think all three+ would be active at once.  An engine is always going to be needing something in the shop.  If we need more steamers than 3, we've likely expanded beyond Head Tide or Cross Road and have reached another town, in which case we build an auxiliary roundhouse there.

Good point on the stub-ended track.  I can envision that the area along the stream between the section house and the car barn may become an area for materials storage, including wheels.

Wayne Laepple replied:
Quote
I think a dead-end siding parallel to the main track on the west side north of the section house could be useful. Wheel sets, trucks, push cars and even the flatcars could be stored there. The switch to this siding could come off the long lead track through the cut to the car house and roundhouse, just off the main track.

Ira Schreiber replied:
Quote
At one time last year, while cleaning out the area by the section house, we talked about using the "mine track" to lay a siding at 90* to the main. This would take off by the section house and head towards the woods at the Boudin property. It would be strictly for wheels, carts, etc. as the curve radius would be too sharp for revenue equipment.

NGFan replied:
Quote
James - you couldn't be more correct.  Never say never when planning facilities and sites.  As soon as you do, the situation changes and then you are sitting there with "Murphy" laughing at you.
When planning buildings, always plan for expansion - more specifically, adding on.  It is far cheaper in the long run to add-on versus building an additional stand alone building.  Add to this the additional cost of heating, lighting, etc.
Also from a mechanics perspective;  last thing I want is to need a specific tool and realize that I need to "take a hike" to get it.  Mechanics won't grouse too much it its in the next bay or two, but make it another building and the air gets blue real quick.  Think about a central "shop" area where tools, parts, & machines (i.e. Bridgeport/Lathe/etc) will be kept.  Then plan around it.  Just some good 'ol Yankee ingenuity is needed and we'll figure it all out.

John

P.S. - Don't forget lots of elec. outlets / air line drops

dwight winkley replied:
Quote
Ira, the mine track was layed out last fall next to the section house. There are three sections that fan out into the woods. These three sections now hold all the four wheel equipment. The dump car, wood and steel flats, fire car and air compressor car. How did they get there? A track panel was put down next to the main line. The second panel was the "turntable" It was lined up to one of the three end storage tracks and the equipment was man handled over the gaps at the joints. A jack was needed to lift and turn the air compressor. The first two panels were than removed. To make it easyer to walk around the section house. It is nice to have all this equipment out of the yard and out of the way this winter.
dwight

Ira Schreiber replied:
Quote
Thanks Dwight for the update.
I guess the "talk" resulted in action. I like when that happens.
Ira

Stewart Rhine replied:
Quote
Dwight,  Thanks for the info about the panel storage track.  Sounds like the clearing and grading next to the tool house paid off.

A jigger track works well for four-wheel equipment.  This is what you find in front of the typical section house.  There's a planked over area where the jigger track abuts the outside edge of the running rail.   The planks allow easier turning of handcars, etc.

The proposed stub siding location mentioned by James and Wayne sounds good.  It's a convienent place to set out a car because it's central location is good for an engine to get to, coming from either yard.  This will help since we will have an upper and lower yard which can increase switching time.

Another thought on the location of the track off ot the turntable pit.  It would work best if lined up with the engine house run-through track in stall 3.  That allows for easier (truck to rail) transfer of rolling stock or motive power.  You wouldn't trap an engine on that lead if the switched piece has a problem.

Bill Reidy replied:
Quote
Stewart's suggestion on the loading/unloading track makes a lot of sense to me.  Run it off the turntable opposite the roundhouse run-through track.  This puts it fairly close to and more or less parallel to the shop building, placing it toward the edge of the special event area, leaving most of the area open for other exhibits.

I like the idea of putting the storage track for wheel sets, work cars, etc. along the west side of the car storage building, rather than along the main near/north of the section house.  This would keep the area around the section house by the main a bit cleaner for the public's view.  If a track is built outside along the west wall, can the car storage building be designed to allow future exapansion to cover this track?

Another alternative would be to place the wheel set track as another track off the turntable running along the west side of the roundhouse.  This alternative would eliminate the need for a switch.

Regarding the size of the roundhouse and future expansion:  if we eventually need additional locomotive space, I'd recommend storing the locomotives in multiple buildings, to minimize loss in the case of fire.

One other comment:  what's clear from the comments in this thread is the LRPC has done an outstanding job in preparing the site plan.  All the comments have dealt with suggestions to make small tweaks here and there with the plan.  Overall the committee has done an excellent job coming up with a plan that makes very good use of our land and considers the museum's many land-use needs.

Thanks,
Bill

Jason M Lamontagne replied:
Quote
I tend to agree with Bill that extra track needs should go west of the car shed- part of the LRP committee's goal was public appearance and maintaining the look of the mainline- as much as it has already been compromised.  That's why we specifically want the new lead track to run in a cut rather than flattening off that entire hill.

There is lots of easily accessible space off to the west of the car shed.

I too like the track opposite the run-thru bay of the enginehouse.  There was some discussion of "Turntable Park"- the idea of which was the entire area south and west of the turntable, up to the house now that the drive is rarely used- to be greened in, maybe some trees, picnic tables- just open space.  A split rail fence might fit in.

This wasn't an official part of the plan- just a thought for that area.  I'm sure a couple tracks off the south end of the turntable could still work with this.

see ya
Jason

Wayne Laepple replied:
Quote
I'm good with the idea of a storage track hidden on the west side of the car house.

And a track opposite the run-through stall is a good idea, too. And if we need more track in "Turntable Park" for display on occassion, we could put some sections of bog track down on the grass and then pick it up later.

Stewart Rhine replied:
Quote
I'll repeat part my original post -  I favor a track along the West side of the car storage building.  This is where the junky and more dangerous things are tied down.  It gets them out of public view and away from kids.  A porch style roof could go over part of the track later.

I think we should also build the stub siding between the main and car storage lead.  (1) It's better to have two options for setting out cars when switching.  (2)  The track can hold the tank car, flat cars, etc.  We are a railroad and it doesn't hurt for the public to see rolling stock tied down on a siding.  It helps portray the WW&F as it was.

Mike Fox replied:
Quote
Stewart,
I like your way of thinking. What would be better than passing a siding with some freight cars on it. Even if they are just set out for the day on display. Tuck them away in the car barn after the day is done.
Mike

James Patten replied:
Quote
Zack wants a ramp track for delivery/removal of equipment; I'm guessing it would end up on the west side of the car barn.

Wayne Laepple replied:
Quote
Might I suggest the ramp extend from the south end of the carhouse? Out the door, and as soon as possible outside, the track begins to ascend. Reaching a ramp on the west side of the carhouse might be difficult for a tractor-trailer rig, unless the track actually extends south of the end of the building and begins to curve around to the east.

Josh Botting replied:
Quote
If we put the ramp track into the building,  when unloading occurs, it would be necessary to evaucate the full length of the track in the building to unload the car....
Ed Lecuyer
Moderator, WW&F Forum