Author Topic: Dwight at the throttle  (Read 6842 times)

Ed Lecuyer

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Dwight at the throttle
« on: January 12, 2009, 12:02:51 AM »
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Dwight at the throttle has been converted from the pre-July 2008 WW&F Discussion Forum.
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Stephen Hussar wrote:
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Many thanks to Dwight Winkley for digging out this photo from his days at Fort Eustis! Caption on back of photo reads as follows: "Engineer M.D. Winkley  Snow storm Feb. 1961 Fort Eustis, Va"
#611 is a 2-8-0 with the Franklin Poppet Valve Gear.

_________________
*                *                    *                   *
"Give me enough Swedes and whiskey and I'll build a railroad to Hell."
- James J. Hill

Stewart Rhine replied:
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The 611's other claim to fame is that it is the only surviving steam locomotive that operated on the Maryland Division of the Maryland and Pennsylvaina Railroad.  The engine was tested by the Army Transportation Corps on the MA&PA during the Korean War 1950-51.  The MA&PA was originally a 3-foot line and retained many steep grades and tight curves.  As Steve noted the engine was equiped with the Franklin Rotary-Cam Poppet Valve system and the Army wanted to test the performance of the valve gear on the M&P's tough mainline.
As Vice President of the M&PRR Historical Society, it's great to see the engine in steam at Fort Eustis.  What's even better is that it's being run by one of my WW&F buddies!

Mike Fairburn replied:
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I was fascinated to come upon the post including the picture of No 611.  I have been following the rebuilding of the WW&F with great interest having developed an interest in the Maine 2 ft gauge over 30 years ago, the wonders of the internet give us folks from overseas an up to date picture of the developments.  My interest in No 611 is because I own No 1631, which went via the UK in 1944, to Hungary.  I bought the loco part restored about three years ago, after narrowly missing an opportunity to buy a very nice 2ft gauge 2-6-0 Baldwin that had been imported to the UK from Brazil (now that would have looked very fine on the WW&F), I bought 1631 as I really wanted an american engine and the USA S160 has a fascinating history.
I would be very interested in any information about no 611 and particularly any comparison to standard S160 locos.
Mike Fairburn

MikeW replied:
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Mike -
Can you provide more information about the 2ft gauge Baldwin?  Where is it now?  Can you provide a link to photographs?

Bill Sample replied:
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It was good to see a photo of 611 alive and well.  By the time I got to Ft Eustis in 1970 as a visitor there were just the 607 and 612 serviceable.
My next visit was on assignment in 1972, just the 607 was in service, and then only occasionally.  Having a wee bit of student firing experience at the Valley Railroad got me a firing assignment the few times it was run as no one else in our unit had any experience.  The other S160s, 606 and 611, were stored derelict on a siding way out in the woods on the James River subdivision, the outer and longer of the two loops that made up most of the training railroad.  611 was missing most of it motion on one side.  Today 611 is on the S160 US survivor's list as on display at the Tennessee Valley Railway Museum, one of seven S160 types preserved in the US.
We visited Ft Eustis last summer as I wanted to show my wife Sue the location of some of my life's railroad adventures.  The 607, supposedly on display at the Transportation Museum, was nowhere to be found.  The person staffing the museum stated that it was probably inside the rail shop getting some cosmetic work, but we had no access to that location.  Overall the Ft Eustis rail system (which we called the Main Gate & Back Route at the time) is just a shadow of its former self.

Mike Fox replied:
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It is some different now trying to visit a Military Base. I was out in Kansas earlier this year and had thoughts of going onto Fort Riley for a look around to see how much it had changed in the 18 years since I was there. There was a gate at every road. Needed a pass to get on. I didn't bother. Maybe next time I will.
If my memory is correct, there were some 2 foot gauge railroads the Army ran. One was in Fort Benning, Georgia. I have some photos of the engine that is on display at the museum on post here someplace. If I remember right, it is a European style loco like what is at Boothbay.
Mike

Mike Fox replied:
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OK. Found the photo. Sorry about the poor scan. Dwight could elaborate on this possibly. I know nothing about it other than I took the photo. And possibly the Q.M.C. stands for Quarter Master Corps.
Mike

Wayne Laepple replied:
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That's one of the so-called World War I "trench engines," Mike. They were built by Baldwin, Alco and Davenport for use in France, where they transported ammunition, men and other materials. Several of them came back to the US after the war and were used on various military installations. I believe there were both 2-6-2T's and 4-6-0T's. If memory serves, there is an Alco 2-6-2T in service on the Ffestinog in Wales, and one of the Baldwin  4-6-0T's recently returned to England after many years of service in India. I think it's getting a new boiler. I'm not sure how closely the machinery of the 2-6-2T's compares to the Sandy River's Prairies, but there ought to be someone here who could speak to that.

Glenn Christensen replied:
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That's one of the so-called World War I "trench engines," Mike. They were built by Baldwin, Alco and Davenport for use in France, where they transported ammunition, men and other materials. Several of them came back to the US after the war and were used on various military installations. I believe there were both 2-6-2T's and 4-6-0T's. If memory serves, there is an Alco 2-6-2T in service on the Ffestinog in Wales, and one of the Baldwin  4-6-0T's recently returned to England after many years of service in India. I think it's getting a new boiler. I'm not sure how closely the machinery of the 2-6-2T's compares to the Sandy River's Prairies, but there ought to be someone here who could speak to that.
Yup, Wayne, you're right on the money!
I live in Columbus, GA (the home of Fort Benning) and have visited this little lokie many times.  She is a Davenport 2-6-2T and as the photo shows, she's in pretty good cosmetic shape.  I understand she'll have a nice indoor home once the new Infantry museum is done.
You're also correct about the "Mountaineer", an Alco 2-6-2T at the Ffestiniog.  A few of us will be visiting there at the end of May and while I understand she's currently in the shop for an overhaul, it *WILL* be the Ffestiniog's 175th anniversary, so maybe we'll get to visit her.  The Alco prairies were a little bigger than the other US built trench locos, about 17 tons as I recall (the others were 15 tons), I think she also had 27" drivers (the others had 23.5"), and outside frames (the others were inside).  In addition to Alco, other 2-6-2Ts were built by Baldwin, Vulcan and Davenport.
The 4-6-0s (there were 495 of them) were all built by Baldwin, weighed in at about 14.5 tons and had 23.5" drivers.  One (from India) will soon be running on the Leighton Buzzard in the UK and a second (also from India via the Imperial War Museum) is to be rebult for use on the rejuvenated Welsh Highland (Portmadoc).  We'll have to see her when we're there.
All these locos were considerably smaller than the later locomotives used in Maine.
Best regards,
Glenn
PS - I understand the Baldwin 2-6-0 (ex-Mogiana, Brazil) is now under restoration at the Brecon Mountain.

dwight winkley replied:
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Mike Fairburn
Have no furture information. Will look around. May be able to find a better view of the Franklin Rotary-Cam Poppet Valve system.
dwight

Wayne Laepple replied:
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Thanks for filling in the blanks about the trench locomotives, Glenn. Last time I was in Wales, "Mountaineer" had just arrived from elsewhere. I didn't see it, so it must have been in the shop. I think I recall that a few years ago  someone had the machinery from a couple of the Davenport 2-6-2T's for sale in the midwest. The story was they were to be converted to gasoline or diesel power for an amusement park, but the scheme failed. I wonder what happened to them?

Mike Fox replied:
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Thanks Wayne and Glenn.
Dwight, looks like you were enjoying your time in that one.
Mike

Glenn Christensen replied:
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Thanks for filling in the blanks about the trench locomotives, Glenn. Last time I was in Wales, "Mountaineer" had just arrived from elsewhere. I didn't see it, so it must have been in the shop. I think I recall that a few years ago  someone had the machinery from a couple of the Davenport 2-6-2T's for sale in the midwest. The story was they were to be converted to gasoline or diesel power for an amusement park, but the scheme failed. I wonder what happened to them?
Hi Wayne,
I think the locos you're referring to were the Davenport frames that Byron Hiatt built into a pair of really neat little 2-6-2 tender locos.  These initially ran on Hiatt's RR (the Byron RR) in Martinsdale, Iowa and were later sold to a private collector in Monroe, Washington.  One of them (the pretty one with the steam traction engine boiler) was put up for sale on e-Bay a couple years ago and I seem to recall was eventually sold to Erie Canal Village for eventual restoration.  I don't know what happened to the one with the creamery boiler.  It wasn't listed for sale so maybe its still in Washington state.
Were these the ones you were thinking of?
Best Regads,
Glenn

Stewart Rhine replied:
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Dwight, I have a number of photos of the 611 running on the MA&PA in 1950 and 51.   If I find them, I'll scan the prints and send them to Steve H. to post.  There's also at least three color slides but I'm not sure how to scan them.   I even have one very rare shot of the engine pulling a passenger (afternoon mail) train out of the Baltimore Yard, heading for York, PA.  The engine only pulled the varnish one time as far as we know.  Back then the locomotive was numbered #2628.
As mentioned above, the 611 survives (in poor shape) at the TVRM in Tenn.  Is was bought as a parts source for the 610 which is in service at the museum.  The engine was transported on it's own wheels with damage done in transit.  There are many parts missing but the Franklin Rotary-Cam Poppet Valve system survives.  The system uses valves that resemble and operate like automotive engine piston valves.

Stephen Hussar replied:
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Here she is being unloaded at TVRM. During my visit to their backshop I spotted some of No 611 in the back corner. We were told she would be restored someday... Stewart, feel free to email more photos.

http://home.chattanooga.net/~soule/RMS/
_________________
*                *                    *                   *
"Give me enough Swedes and whiskey and I'll build a railroad to Hell."
- James J. Hill

Joe Fox replied:
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Is the 610 the sister to the 611? I know that the 610 was also a US army locomotive, but I wasn't sure if the 611 was it's sister, since they worked in two different locations I think. Talk to you guys later.

Mike Fox replied:
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That was out behind the shop wasn't it Steve? I have it on video I think. We went there in the mid 90's and rode behind the 610. No still shots from when we visited. But I wonder how we could include sound on this post. The 610 and 611 must sound similar. Hmmmmm...........

Stewart Rhine replied:
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Mike, The 611 was out behind the TVRM shop when I saw it in 1995.  It went to a number of places before going to Tenn in the 1980's.  When it was first shipped from Ft Eustis (mid 1970's?) it traveled on it's own wheels.  The main and side rods were pulled from one side but some of the rods were left on the other side and it caused damage to the running gear.  Joe, The TVRM crew told me that the 610 and 611 were sister engines the day I rode behind the 610.   The biggest difference was the 611's rare Franklin Rotary-Cam Poppet Valves.  BTW - I have the Franklin Company parts book that came out of the shop office at the MA&PA Railroad's Baltimore roundhouse.
Steve, Thanks for the photo of the 611, that's what it looked like when I saw it.

Stephen Hussar replied:
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That was out behind the shop wasn't it Steve?
Mike, I do not know exactly where that photo was taken, but as I said when I was there a couple of summers ago with my brother, the person bringing us around pointed to a locomotive in the corner of the shop and told us it was the 611. Another 2-8-0, No 630 is also in the shop under restoration. According to steamlocomotive.info the 630 was built by Alco (Richmond) for the Southern Ry. Another tidbit from that site is that the 611 is a Baldwin built in 1943...making her practically new when Dwight ran her! 

Photo: tvrail.com

Mike Fairburn replied:
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Mike W
As Glenn has said in a later post, the Baldwin 2-6-0 locomotive went to the Brecon Mountain Railway and is I believe currently under restoration.  I am sorry to say that I dont have any photos of the loco either prior to the start of restoration or during.  There was until recently a picture of the restored chassis on the Ffestiniog railway web site, but the web site has recently been updated and I acnnot locate the photo any longer. If I get to South Wales I will be sure to be looking in to view progress, and will post photos obtained.

Joe Fox replied:
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I recognize that engine, of course, only from video tape recordings, as I was to little when Dad took us to the TVRM. They operate on 3 miles of track, without a single road crossing I believe.
Joe

Mike Fox replied:
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I reviewed the tape I made in 1994. No picture of 611. But then Joe pointed out to me that there was a DVD we have that had TVRM on it. And in Discussing the history of 610, they showed a tripple header filmed in the 60's in color with the 611 in the middle at Ft. Eustis, Virginia.In that short footage, there is the 607, 608, 611 and 612.
I would like to capture a shot off the DVD but due to copyright laws, I better not. The 611 had yellow handrails and ladders and a yellow stripe down the side of the walkway on the side of the boiler. And the tires were white. And the pilot was all yellow.
Mike

MikeW replied:
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I checked the Brecon Mountain web site - no pictures of the Bazil loco and they say it is being rebuilt.

Joe Fox replied:
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Dwight, did you ever operate a tripple headed passenger train?
Mark 1 video has a video of the 611 in between two other locomotives, and I was just wondering if that was you in the cab. Talk to you later.
Joe
p.s. They said the video was made sometime in the 1960's. Talk to you later.

dwight winkley replied:
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Yes, tripple header passenger trains were run at Fort Eustis in the early 1960's The NRHS  Ft Eustis Chapter ran yearly frips for the local railfans. I was the club president.
Got to find that video
dwight opps! back than I was called Mark

Joe Fox replied:
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Oh. DId you say you will be at the museum this weekend? If so, we will bring it with us, so you can see it on the DVD/VCR tv in the gift shop. Talkt to you later.
Joe

Mike Fox replied:
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When we were there in 1994, the 630 was under the shed out back, in front of atleast the 6910. I was new with the Camcorder so I did not take the time and get everything I wish (at least now) I could have. I did manage to get most of the equipment in the yard on tape but missed a few out back.
Mike

Bill Sample replied:
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Glenn, my father went through O C S at Ft Benning in 1943 and told me about riding the "Chattahoochee Choo-Choo" out to a rifle range, I remember saying it was a narrow gauge operation.  It was an extensive system from his description.
Mike, you're absolutely correct about getting onto military bases these days.  At Eustis it was a full over and under automobile inspection with us out of the car in a big tent they had put up by the main gate. I imagine on a busy weekend day the line to get onto the post would be long.  There is a narrow gauge steam loco at the Ft Eustis museum, I think it was one of these "trench" engines.

Glenn Christensen replied:
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Glenn, my father went through O C S at Ft Benning in 1943 and told me about riding the "Chattahoochee Choo-Choo" out to a rifle range, I remember saying it was a narrow gauge operation.  It was an extensive system from his description.
Hi Mike,
Indeed it was!  At its maximum extent Fort Benning had 27 miles of track!
Richard Dunn's book, "Narrow Gauge to No Man's Land" states, the mainline was 9.1 miles in length and the remaining distance were branches to "...firing ranges, passing sidings, and extensionsto lumber operations."  They ran a total of 35 steamers and 3 gas mechanicals.
The same source doesn't list a second surviving WWI trench steamer in the U.S. nor does it indicate that there was a 60mm operation at Fort Eustis, so it would be really interesting to hear more about the narrow gauge locomotive there.  There was a 20-mile long 60mm operation at Camp Humphries near Belvoir, VA that had 3 Baldwin 2-6-2Ts and 11 gas mechanical locos.  Fort Dix also had a pretty big operation with 11 steamers and 17 miles of track.  I wonder if the lokie might have come from one of these locations.
Best Regards,
Glenn

Allan Fisher replied:
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I remember Ft. Eustis steam well in early 1966 and late 1967 (before and after a tour in Vietnam).
Another Transportation Corps Officer and I doubleheaded the 611 & 612 (?) around the main line one Sunday afternoon. He wound up an AVP of Passenger Services at CSX and was General Manager of the IRAQ Railroad the first year after Saddam was overthrown, and I retired as Director of Operating Rules at Conrail.
The 610, 611 & 612 were all kept under steam while I was there and I have a wonderful 8 mm shot of 611 charging up the grade with heavy train in the sun right after a cloudburst.
Dwight probably remembers the NCO in charge at Hank's Yard. He came from Vermont (Stratton?)

Bill Sample replied:
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Joe,
Of the final U S Army 2-8-0 types at Ft Eustis, 606, 607, 611 and 612 were at least half sisters, all built during World War II, known especially in the UK as "S160" types.  They all originally had different numbers that had four digits.  As I think I posted on a different thread, I seem to remember that 607 and 612 were re-boilered around 1964, so they were in the best operating shape by the time I got there.
Number 610 was a similar sized locomotive, but built much later - think it was in 1952 - so I guess you would call her a younger cousin.  I believe she was the final Baldwin steam locomotive built, at least standard gauge for domestic service rather than export.  It was parked out of service behind the steam shop in 1970, but was supposedly next in line for an overhaul after 612.  The soldiers doing the overhaul on 612 were mostly gone by the time I returned - this time in uniform - in early 1972, so it was never completed, and 610's was never started.
I thought 610 had a much prettier face (front end) than the S160s, but the TVRM gave it a major cosmetic refurbishing as part of it overhaul.  I think that there was an issue of Trains magazine that covered this event.

Joe Fox replied:
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Thanks for the info Bill.
Joe

Stewart Rhine replied:
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Bill,  You are right about the four digit numbers.   The photos I have of the 611 running on the Maryland & Pennsylvania RR show it's number was 2628.  It was tested on the M&P during the Korean War in 1950-51.  There was an Army Transportation Corps officer on the engine for the first few trips between Baltimore and York, PA.

Stephen Hussar replied:
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More Ft Eustis images from Dwight. Thanks, Dwight! Apologies for taking so long to get these posted. Work, work, work, and total computer meltdown were the causes...in that order 
A recent (brief) discussion over on RyPN about these engines got me to hunting down these images from my old hard drive. Notice how the number plate on the 607 somewhat masks the offset smokebox door...(why were they offset in the first place?)



Steam replied:
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I had an opportunity to RUN the US Army #612 when it was in Ogden, Utah back in May of 1969 for the Gold Spike Centennial Celebrations connected with the Transcontinental Railroad out at Promontory Point!
The Army had brought the 612 and several cars to Ogden where they were on display at the Defense Depot there. This was basically a large yard with lots of stored Alco diesels for foreign use.
The 612 was manned by Army personnel, some of whom were in period uniform of the 1860s. The cars held displays featuring the Army's role in the westward expansion of America. They were open to the public during the week of the May 10th re-enactment at Promontory.  The 612 was under steam at the head of the stationary train display.
I got talking with the engine crew, who were young draftees of about age 19 or 20.  The engineer was a former railroad employee, but the fireman had no prior railroad experience and just ended up in the railroad battalion. He could just as easily have ended up in the infantry or armor. He had no particular interest in railroading! But this beat being in Vietnam.
Anyway, in talking, I mentioned I was into the live steam hobby, and the engineer said that after they "put up" at 4:30 each day, they uncoupled the locomotive and ran it up and down the yard a few times to keep it limbered up. He said I was welcome to come back and ride with them. Naturally, I took him up on the offer.  When I returned, I found another man also waiting. He was a Union Pacific engineer, and he was eager for a cab ride too.  So we both climbed up and rode up and down the mile long yard a few times. Then the engineer asked if we wanted to run the locomotive!!  We both looked at each other and said, "you bet".
And so it was. We each got to run it up and back a couple of times.  I even had the nerve to ask the engineer to take my movie camera and get off and shoot me running the engine past the camera. He said, "sure, how do you run the camera?"  And off he got with it and positioned himself at the side of the track. Then I backed the locomotive up a few hundred yards and then came forward and past his position as he shot me doing it.  It is one of my prized pieces of 8mm film!!
We both thanked the crew profusely and headed off.  What a day that was!  I also have color slides of all this.
A few years ago I came across the 612 at Cass Scenic RR in West Virginia where it is in terrible shape...all rusted out in a line of junk equipment. What a shame.  Thankfully I have that day back in 1969 to remember instead.
Richard W. Symmes

Stephen Hussar replied:
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Thanks, Richard -- that's a great story!! I wish there were an easy way to transfer old 8mm stuff...bet we'd all like to see that footage.
Here's an image of the 612 stored at Cass, WV. The engine was donated to the state of West Virginia in 1971. So why did the state of W. Virginia/Cass Scenic even want her...she's a Baldwin after all! Linked photo is by Richard Jenkins of Lost Engines fame.

Stephen Hussar replied:
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From The Railway Preservation News discussion forum. Perhaps Dwight can shed some light on the following post/question from Les Beckman...
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"The recent talk about U.S. Army 0-6-0's got me to do a little internet search. Don Ross shows this photo of U.S. Army Alco (built as #4018; s/n 70394) on his website.
Don reports that this 0-6-0 (renumbered as 614), shown here in August of 1955, was supposed to be part of the display at the museum there at Fort Eustis, Virginia. Apparently it never happened. Sure would be interesting to know, after being spiffed up, why the locomotive was not put on display."

Keith Taylor replied:
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Stephen,
You asked why the offfset smoke box door, well if you look at one of the photos in the very post where you posed that question, you will see the answer. It was to allow the Westinghouse cross compound air compressor to be mounted on the pilot beam, and still be able to open the smokebox door. The Army 0-6-0's had the same set up.
Keith

Stephen Hussar replied:
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It's funny, right after I posted that photo I noticed the 0-6-0 had a similar arrangement. That smaller than normal offset door must have made servicing the front end quite a bit more difficult...
Thanks!
Stephen

Bill Sample replied:
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I'll guess that the air pump being mounted on the pilot beam may have had something to do with keeping side overhang to a minimum for possible foreign service.  Think they call this meeting the "loading gauge" in the UK.  The tightest fit was in the UK, continental Europe was a bit larger but still very tight compared with North American clearances.

Mike Fox replied:
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Very interesting Bill. I never thought of the difference like that. Probably if you measured the width of the cab and tender, they might also fit into those clearances. Probably narrower than a normal Standard gauge cab.
Mike

Wayne Laepple replied:
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Another reason for putting the air pump out front was the forward motion of the locomotive would help to cool the compressor. Some modern engines had two air pumps out front, with a bank of piping between them to cool the compressed air before it went into the reservoirs on the engine. However, in the case of the USA locomotives, I suspect clearances to be the real reason.

Stephen Hussar replied:
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Dwight, what happened to this loco?
Ed Lecuyer
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