Author Topic: SR&RL #16 - Odd Tender Truck  (Read 8572 times)

Tom Werb

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SR&RL #16 - Odd Tender Truck
« on: September 01, 2014, 08:33:39 PM »
Photographs of SR&RL #16 in 1932 (and later) show the Front and Rear Tender Trucks are different.
Photographs of #16 in 1924 and before show that she had the original Tender Trucks that she had as a 2-6-0.

Questions are:
#1  When was the front Tender Truck changed?   Maybe after the 1924 wreck at Phillips?
AND
#2  Where did the odd Tender Truck come from?  My guess is #15, that was retired in 1923,

Anyone have more conclusive data or information?????
Extremely-Narrow-Mindedly,
Tom Werb

Bruce Mohn

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Re: SR&RL #16 - Odd Tender Truck
« Reply #1 on: September 02, 2014, 12:12:20 PM »
Hi Tom:

Sounds like reasonable assumptions for when the truck was changed and with what.  I've asked questions about roads that went out more recently and that were well known and been told that no one knows.  How can no one know when the EBT replaced the riveted tenders on 16 and 17 with all welded tenders?  But that is the case.  I am guessing the answer is going to be similar for the SR&RL.

Bruce

Philip Marshall

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Re: SR&RL #16 - Odd Tender Truck
« Reply #2 on: September 02, 2014, 04:09:54 PM »
Hi Tom,

That's a really interesting observation -- a little detail I had never noticed before. Thank you for posing this question.  I think you're probably correct that one of 15's tender trucks was given to 16, but I'm not sure about the years.

The first volume of Jerry DeVos' series on "The Sandy River & Rangeley Lakes Railroad and Predecessors" has a detailed history of each of the SR&RL Baldwin engines. DeVos makes no reference to a truck swap, but he does note that while there are no known photos of 15 in service later than 1923, it doesn't appear to have been officially retired until 1929. Furthermore, he shows a couple of photographs of 16 in Rangeley in September, 1928 (well after its rebuilding from the 1924 "Roundabout" collision with 23) with two matching tender trucks. So assuming these dates are correct, I would guess that the truck swap happened sometime after 1929.

Of course, that just presents the new question of why the truck had to replaced in the first place if it wasn't as a result of the 1924 wreck.

Something else I'm noticing now as I pore over old photos is that 16 and 18 appear to have had different tender trucks! The trucks on 18 were more like those on 15 than 16. I have always been in the lazy habit of thinking that 16 and 18 were identical, both as delivered from Baldwin and as rebuilt by the MeC, but that really puts this assumption to rest. (The preserved tender tanks of 16 and 18 in Phillips already show that they had slightly different designs as far as the tank itself was concerned.)

-Philip Marshall

Ira Schreiber

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Re: SR&RL #16 - Odd Tender Truck OT
« Reply #3 on: September 02, 2014, 04:15:38 PM »
A little off topic, but ex-CB&Q 5629 (4-8-4) on display at the Colorado Railroad Museum in Golden, CO, since 1963,  has two different tender trucks. One is roller bearing and one is not.
See, even the big boys did the swap bit.

Tom Werb

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Re: SR&RL #16 - Odd Tender Truck
« Reply #4 on: September 02, 2014, 08:57:09 PM »
Hi Phillip:
Yes, I saw a photo of #16 with matching tender trucks captioned as 1928 in Jones, 2FBTR, Volume 2.  However, I don't always trust Mr. Jones'
captions since errors have been noted; a notable one was a photo at Kingfield dated as 1924 where #16 is as 2-6-0.

I assumed the source of the odd tender truck had to be one of the other (3) Prairie conversions.
IIRC, #15 was stored unserviceable in September 1923, right after the Phillips enginehouse fire.
#18 was in service right to the end of the SR&RL.
#19 was burning in the Phillips enginehouse fire, but was put back in service in 1924.

Now, if #16 Tender Truck wasn't replaced under post-1928, maybe #19 could've been the source?

Tom
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Tom Werb

john d Stone

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Re: SR&RL #16 - Odd Tender Truck
« Reply #5 on: September 02, 2014, 09:53:48 PM »
According to Linwood Moody, #15 was retired after breaking a driver axle on a plow train on the morning of the big roundhouse fire,
Feb. 12, 1923. #18 got a new tender from Baldwin in 1926. Whether she got new trucks, or just the tender frame and body, I don't know. I'm guessing, that as times tightened up in the late '20s, a busted truck frame was easier replaced from an out of service engine than repaired.

Tom Werb

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Re: SR&RL #16 - Odd Tender Truck
« Reply #6 on: September 04, 2014, 09:50:03 PM »
Hello John!
Interesting thought that the odd Tender Truck may have come from #18.
I don't remember reading that the SR&RL bought a new Tender for #18.
What was your source of this information????
Thanx for the input!
Tom Werb
2-Foot 4Ever
Extremely-Narrow-Mindedly,
Tom Werb

john d Stone

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Re: SR&RL #16 - Odd Tender Truck
« Reply #7 on: September 05, 2014, 12:06:56 AM »
Hi Tom,

I got that from "Ride the Sandy River" by L. Peter Cromwall and Jack Farrell. It's mentioned that this new tender even had a Baldwin builder's plate! I don't know the reason for the new tender, whether the old one was thoroughly wrecked or just worn out.

John

Philip Marshall

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Re: SR&RL #16 - Odd Tender Truck
« Reply #8 on: September 05, 2014, 01:16:15 AM »
Both 16 and 18 received new tenders from Baldwin either at the time of their MeC rebuilds from 2-6-0s to 2-6-2s in 1916 or just before -- I don't think 1926 is correct. I had been told by someone (Bob Troup I think?) that the shorter tenders were so they could still fit on the turntables despite their longer wheelbase, but there is at least one picture of 16 with a new shorter tender when she was still a 2-6-0, so perhaps not.

(Incidentally, the original tender tanks from 16 and 18 still exist and are preserved by the SR&RL group in Phillips. They were dumped into the fill at the south end of the Phillips yard, from which they emerged again in 2005!)

At any rate, it seems clear to me that the same trucks were used under 16's and 18's new tenders as were under the old -- they were just recycled. The tender trucks on 18 appear to have stayed the same to the very end in 1936, so I don't think the replacement truck on 16 could have come from 18.  Engine 19 was out of service by 1931 for a tube replacement which never happened, but she appears to have remained intact despite this condition, so I'm still inclined to think the replacement tender truck came from 15.

What a mystery all of this is!

-Philip Marshall




john d Stone

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Re: SR&RL #16 - Odd Tender Truck
« Reply #9 on: September 05, 2014, 11:19:14 AM »
#15 certainly seems like the logical source for parts as she was the first out of service. When I read that 1926 date for a new tender, it seemed strange that the SR&RL would be buying anything new at that late date. Also, with their shop capabilities, I would think they would have fabricated/repaired any tender needs they had. (Sounds romantic)

The mystery continues!

John

Tom Werb

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Re: SR&RL #16 - Odd Tender Truck
« Reply #10 on: September 05, 2014, 09:20:22 PM »
A few more pieces to add to the puzzle!

John:  I found your reference in the Cornwall/Farrell book - thanx.

I think a photo survey may help here.

Some photo-spotting facts:
1.  The original Tenders for the 2-6-0s (SR 2nd #2, SR 2nd #3, P&R #2) had
a large front deck, because, as 2-6-0s, the locos had a "deck-less" cab.
The boiler/firebox extended almost back to the Cab rear wall.
2.  The "later" Tenders had a much smaller front deck, and the waterlegs
extended almost to the front of the frame.  The addition of the Trailing Truck
permitted an open-deck cab.
3.  The Baldwin Builders Plate doesn't always show-up in the photos.  It is
most often visible in photos of #18.  So far, I've found only ONE photo of #16
where the Builders Plate is visible.

Does anyone have an e-mail address for Peter Barney?
I lost contact with him after the Narrow-Gauge Convention in 2002.

Extremely-Narrow-Mindedly,
Tom Werb
Extremely-Narrow-Mindedly,
Tom Werb