New Whistles for 9 and 10

[Jason M Lamontagne]

Jason and Bob had re-arranged the steam dome arrangements on Loco 10 earlier in the week, putting on a steam loco pop valve, putting the state-code pop valve elsewhere, and putting in a different, single chime whistle.  The new whistle was not popular, especially with me being right next to it - too high pitched and loud.  They will rethink their plans.

Hello,

Aww- James, give it a chance!

The 'new whistle' is a single chime 4" bell locomotive whistle- which we got from Bernie several years ago in a trade.  It is very appropriate for this application.  It took a substantial rebuilding of the valve mechanism, and a new lever arrangement in the cab- to make it all work out.  Bill Baskerville helped us quite a lot.  I want to give more folks chance to hear it, and give it some fermentation time before pulling it.  Not quite fair to say we are rethinking it yet.

The whistle change was secondary- our primary objective was installation of a Kunkle locomotive pop valve.  The only opening large enough to mount this new, 'unofficial' pop was where Bernie's big whistle was mounted.  We've had increasing trouble with modern safety valves lately, so, with the state's blessing, we've serviced, mounted and set the old kunkle to pop about 5 psi lower than the new, official kunkle.  It works fabulously- I couldn't be more pleased with this old valve.

My apologies, Bernie, that you've learned of the unmounting of your whistle in this fashion.  I meant to have a conversation with you this coming week about it- after a weekend to see how the new pop would work.  

Regardless of the outcome of the loco single chimer, I'm afraid the large dome opening should remain dedicated to our loco pop valve.  But, please, give the hooter a fair chance.  It really is narrow gauge appropriate.  

There's also a 4" Crosby chime whistle upstairs- I'll take a look at it.  I think the mud wasps have taken it over at the moment...

See ya
Jason

(Some grammar edits...)

[Bernie Perch]

I am in no way unhappy that the CNJ replica whistle was removed from #10.  When Wayne and Gordon installed it on the work weekend of Oct. 2011, I was pleased that it was even allowed on the locomotive and only expected it to be on for the weekend and then removed.  That it has been on the last few years since then was much more than expected and it was a good run.  It is now time for something else.  My written agreement with the railroad was that as long as they wanted it on a locomotive, it could stay in Maine.  I do not want it in the loft, so if it is not going on anything, I will bring it home when I come up in October.

As for the current whistle on #10, I recommend that a shield be clamped near the opening which would direct the "music" upward.  It may not look that great, but is should satisfy the locomotive crew and passengers.  The three chime mentioned above might be the choice of everyone because the smaller chime whistles are quite pleasant.

In reality, whistles are meant to be loud and the FRA does have their standards when they are in charge.

I would like to thank everyone up there for the privilege of having it on for so long.

Thanx,  Bernie

[Dale Reynolds]

had the privilege of riding the steam train both Saturday and sunday and like the new whistle very much. having ridden narrow gauge locos all over the place for many decades, it sounds to me more like the other ng trains. and the new pop valve worked great!!!! dale

[Mike Fox]

That new whistle can be heard 2 1/2 miles away at the Top of the Mountain. The combination of the new whistle and the higher pressure on the pop off valve made it more noticeable.

[James Patten]

Loud I can handle.  My main complaint is that the pitch of the whistle is very shrill, and I'm primarily concerned with hearing loss in the upper ranges.  Both my parents have had hearing loss, plus I have tinnitus (ringing in the ears) anyway. 

[Bernie Perch]

On the current whistle can't you screw the top (bell) up higher on its shaft to remediate the shrill problem.  If the shaft is too short, put a longer one on.

Bernie

[Jason M Lamontagne]

That's worth trying.  I set the bell height to .35 X bell diameter, a proportion I found on Wikipedia!

Ed split this topic off so the whistle discussion can continue without fouling the original topic.  Thanks Ed!  Hopefully he'll get a chance to post the pictures I sent him at some point- though that's more trouble so it may take a bit.

We've done a fair amount of research and found that for most of no 9's life, it carried a Portland Company standard 5" single chime whistle.  There are pictures of it on SR, KC, and looking at Allan Socea's original of no 9 in steam in Wiscasset, it's clear that the hooter was retained.  Alan Downey and I have plans to reproduce it.  

Soooo- this whistle on no 10, a 4" single chime, is a precursor.  We want no 9 to be historically correct- and I'll be a fair bit of teouble to reproduce that 5" whistle.  Of course we don't know how it'll sound till it's done.  

If I read the Po Co spec book correctly, their whistle used an iron bell.

The 4" chime we have requires a valve to be made- so I can't just toss it on this weekend.  I like the idea of messing with bell height.

Incidentally, the Po Co spec for no 9 lists 4" chime, which is probably how it was built.  The photos clearly show the Po Co hooter though, so it must have gotten changed.  Perhaps after a wreck and SRRR ordered a whistle from Po Co.

I hope this generates some constructive discussion!


See ya
Jason

[Gordon Cook]

To James' point: Bernie's 3 chime would rattle my eardrums, but only on the fireman's side. At some point the loudness exceeds the dynamic range of our ears. In my experience this worsens with age. Higher frequencies are worse. 

On the other hand, the point is for it to be heard at a distance. So we have conflicting requirements.

Whistles work by putting a loud noise (the steam hitting the lip) into a resonant chamber, the bell, which emphasizes the frequency whose wavelength is roughly 4 times the length. Other frequencies produced are harmonics whose wavelengths are at odd multiples of the fundamental. See Wikipedia for 'Steam whistle'.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steam_whistle
There will be a quiz. 
For the tone, or shrillness,  a larger diameter to length ratio should emphasize the lower harmonics and make it less shrill, but, there are other factors too,
such as the material of the bell and the width of the gap that the steam comes out of, the height of the lip of the bell, and the position of the lip with respect to the steam gap (larger diameter or smaller).  Of course, once built, the proportion and material of the bell, the gap width, and position are fixed, with the height adjustable.

As Bernie noted,  raising the bell height should reduce the amount and pressure of the steam hitting it and therefore the 'shrillness', but may reduce the loudness as well. As suggested, a small deflector might help the loudness in the cab.

[Jason M Lamontagne]

The whistle we hope to reproduce is about the same length, and an inch larger in diameter- so I have hopes it'll be more pleasant. 

For now on no 10 it's the hooter that's on there- perhaps we can improve it some-  or make a valve and fulcrum for the 4" Crosby 3 chime.

Gordon is scheduled this weekend- feel free to try a different bell height.  The whistle is very high- for various reasons.  I don't think it looks good that high, and being high may make a deflector even uglier. 

Maybe the chime is worth some time.

See ya
Jason

[Ed Lecuyer]

Here are the pictures that Jason requested that I post:

[Dana Deering]

For what it is worth, I like switching out the whistles from time to time and I like the idea of having a hooter on 10 (but only because I am partial to them since they are authentic for some of the smaller and/or earlier 2 foot locos).  I also like the sound of Bernie's whistle so it is not that I don't want one versus another.  I just like experimenting.  I will have to withhold judgement until I hear this whistle and maybe the adjustment suggested by Bernie will help the shrillness.  I am also intrigued by the Crosby whistle.

I think Jason has a very valid point, historically speaking, regarding 9 since she sported a hooter type whistle for her whole career.  You can see from photos of her on the trailer that she left the Kennebec Central with a hooter that was the same one she had at the end of her SR&RL days.  She was "in the ditch" quite a few times when she was up in Franklin County and her whistle was changed over the years but they all look like hooter types.

Besides, a hooter whislte sounds very woodsy.

My 1.5 cents.

Dana

[Bernie Perch]

I suggested adjusting the whistle bell because that is what we would do at the WK&S whenever we put a hooter on a locomotive.  We would do the adjusting at full operating pressure until it sounded just right.  There can be a great variation in tone just by adjusting.  Maybe someone could quickly make a new languid plate that is a little larger to reduce the size of the opening.  That is what I had done on the CNJ three chime and why it worked so well.

If you guys like hooters, I have a beautiful 6" diameter X 12" bell one with about the same valve configuration, that is lighter than the CNJ whistle and has a nice deep tone that everyone may like.  If it could fit where the current whistle is located and it would probably work on the smaller pipe, I could bring it up in October, or ship it up now.  It is also highly polished and would satisfy those who like shiny things.  It definitely would look high.

At the WK&S, we changed the whistle EVERY DAY, each operating crew putting on their whistle of choice.  Out there in the woods, no one wanted to leave a whistle on the locomotive for surely it would disappear by the following week.  Since I had the opportunity to change whistles, I collected a number of whistles, and would put on a whistle that matched my mood at the time.  This is why I have a number of whistles.  CNJ 113 has room for two whistles, and the next time we put it on display, I am going to put on a whistle sideways with a rope on it so spectators can have a chance of blowing a whistle.  We will have to limit this as it can create unfriendly neighbors.

Bernie

[Stephen Hussar]

I set the bell height to .35 X bell diameter, a proportion I found on Wikipedia!

I read that one person in the UK is responsible for over 20% of the content on Wikipedia...just sayin' 

[Jason M Lamontagne]

Granted on using Wikipedia as a source- though I've found you can give some credit to the tone of professionalism when considering various Wikipedia pages as a source.  The steam whistle page is well thought out and professionally presented. 

The first pic shows the Po Co elevation drawing of locos 615, 616- SRRR 4, P&R 1 (I believe)- focused on the Po Co whistle.  Scale is 1/8" = 1". 

Second pic shows no 10's current arrangement.  4" hooter on left- old locomotive Kunkle on right- works GREAT! 

Third pic not very clear- shows our 4" Crosby 3 chime sitting on page of Po Co spec book indicating a 4" chime whistle for loco 622 (our no 9).

That specification not withstanding, we intend to reproduce the whistle shown on the Po Co print, as photographs show no 9 with this whistle for most of its life.  I presume it was built with the chime as specified- but I wonder when it was removed.

The 4" Crosby chime may be the right candidate for no 10.  It needs a valve, fulcrum, and handle however.

On no 9, the hooter will be higher and farther from the crew- and as Gordon mentions should be a little gentler as it will be fatter for its length.

See ya
Jason

[Bernie Perch]

Jason, Alan,

If you guys are interested in making #9's whistle slightly larger in diameter, I have a 5 1/2" heavy walled boiler tube here that I could cut a chunk off of and bring up in October.  It could be machined to a thin walled 5 1/4" tube.  I would recommend making the whistle bell longer than those in the photos.  This would give the whistle a deeper, pleasant tone.  Way back then, when whistles were common, people were used to all sorts of high pitched whistles which were everywhere.  Just from comments in the above posts, our modern ears dislike shrill whistles and based on what I know about whistles, those on #9 on her earlier incarnations were loud and shrill.  Making a whistle larger in diameter in relation to the height does not make it softer.  It makes it louder, all other dimensions being the same!

Bernie