Author Topic: FRA Regulations (Pilot, Grade Crossing, Brakes, etc.)  (Read 44244 times)

Cliff Olson

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Re: FRA Regulations (Pilot, Grade Crossing, Brakes, etc.)
« Reply #30 on: February 10, 2012, 09:14:34 AM »
Wayne, what's the difference, except that Monson #3's "bumper" appears to be heavier and lower than the one on the British locomotive?  I don't see why that makes Monson #3's device a "pilot" rather than "an end plate that extends across both rails", which the FRA apparently distinguishes from a pilot (at least in the case of non-steam locomotives).  We're still left with the questions of whether a steam locomotive is required to have a "pilot" and whether Monson #3's front end device is considered a "pilot".

According to the locomotive diagrams in Roger Whitney's Monson book, neither Monson #3's nor #4's original "bumper" met the current FRA height requirement for pilots (although they were close, and #3's now visually appears low enough to qualify).

By the way, 49 CFR Part 231, cited earlier, applies only to standard gauge railroads, except regarding drawbar height.  49 CFR sec. 231.0(a),(g).

Keith Taylor

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Re: FRA Regulations (Pilot, Grade Crossing, Brakes, etc.)
« Reply #31 on: February 10, 2012, 10:16:35 AM »

By the way, 49 CFR Part 231, cited earlier, applies only to standard gauge railroads, except regarding drawbar height.  49 CFR sec. 231.0(a),(g).
Cliff;
CFR 49 Part 231.0 (g) which you note above states:
(g) Except as provided in paragraph (b) of this section, ยง231.31 also applies to an operation on a 24-inch, 36-inch, or other narrow gage railroad.

Which means it DOES apply to narrow gauge railroads.

Cliff Olson

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Re: FRA Regulations (Pilot, Grade Crossing, Brakes, etc.)
« Reply #32 on: February 10, 2012, 10:32:18 AM »
Keith, as I said, sec. 231.31 (which addresses drawbar height) is the only provision of Part 231 that applies to narrow gauge railroads.

Jock Ellis

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Re: FRA Regulations (Pilot, Grade Crossing, Brakes, etc.)
« Reply #33 on: February 22, 2012, 10:31:42 AM »
I read that the Flying Scotsman's locomotive, the King George, IIRC, still wears the bell. But nothing I've ever read about it tells whether they actually use the bell.
Jock Ellis

Kevin Madore

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Re: FRA Regulations (Pilot, Grade Crossing, Brakes, etc.)
« Reply #34 on: April 03, 2012, 09:35:14 AM »
Crossing the road would get the Feds involved....correct?   Aside from the obvious requirements for inspections on the steam locomotives, what other implications would FRA regulation have for the museum?   I'm thinking both in terms of train equipment as well as methods and procedures.   Would the trains need air brakes?   Would FRA object to the use of hand/whistle/lantern signals in lieu of radios?  One of the coolest things about the WW&F right now is that the operation is basic, old-time railroading.  I'm not aware of anyplace else where this type of operation can still be seen.

/Kevin

Joe Fox

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Re: FRA Regulations (Pilot, Grade Crossing, Brakes, etc.)
« Reply #35 on: April 03, 2012, 11:04:23 AM »
The FRA wouldn't require air brakes, however, having the working hand brakes that we have now, is a huge plus. I believe they require you hvae some kind of working brake system on passenger cars. At MNG they only inspect the engines, however, they may do more at the WW&F, they may not. They will probably look through all of our records, rule book, etc. to see what we may need to change, and just to see what we have been doing. The FRA is easy to work with, if you don't lie to them, and treat them well, they will make sure to take care of you. The railroad is still currently making changes in a slow, but steady pace, so that when the time does come to cross a "Public" road, the remaining changes, if any, will be very easy.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2012, 11:06:17 AM by Joe Fox »

Kevin Madore

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Re: FRA Regulations (Pilot, Grade Crossing, Brakes, etc.)
« Reply #36 on: April 03, 2012, 01:08:25 PM »
Thanks guys!   I think that the experience various museums have with the FRA varies from place to place.    When I was out at Nevada Northern in February, the FRA had nearly all of the museum's historic box and hopper cars restricted to the yard because they were over 50 years old.   Even though the museum had inspected them and worked on them, the inspector basically failed everything.   Fortunately, the yard limits at NN are pretty liberal.

I guess it matters who the inspector is.   The FAA is not a lot different with respect to airplanes.   You can easily get two different rulings from two different district offices.

As Joe says, it pays to start cultivating a good relationship early on.

/Kevin

Keith Taylor

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Re: FRA Regulations (Pilot, Grade Crossing, Brakes, etc.)
« Reply #37 on: April 03, 2012, 01:19:58 PM »
I don't believe that FRA involvement would be a bad thing. What does need to be considered is the increased amount of insurance required when you cross a public highway. A single automobile grade crossing accident could financially ruin the museum.
Not to mention the affect on the crews involved.
As somebody who has been personally involved in a fatal grade crossing accident, I know that it is something you would have to live with for the rest of your life. The people in the car will sue not only the railroad....but the individuals operating the train. Even if you win the case....the costs emotionally and those of lost wages when you have to attend court depositions etc. can be catastrophic.
I personally think the potential costs are not outweighed by better photographic opportunities.
Just my personal opinion....
Keith

Ira Schreiber

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Re: FRA Regulations (Pilot, Grade Crossing, Brakes, etc.)
« Reply #38 on: April 03, 2012, 01:25:02 PM »
OK, before this FRA thing gets out of hand.

The FRA does NOT control grade crossings, the State of Maine does. FRA only requires the reporting portion.
We are NOT part of the National rail system. This means most sections of the FRA rules, including air brakes do NOT apply to the WW&F.
This FRA thing is much to do about nothing, IMHO.
Allen Fisher can further comment on this but I have done much research on this subject.
Ira Schreiber

Keith Taylor

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Re: FRA Regulations (Pilot, Grade Crossing, Brakes, etc.)
« Reply #39 on: April 03, 2012, 02:06:49 PM »
Ira,
You will notice that I did not say a word about the FRA being involved with the grade crossing and in fact I stated that FRA involvment would not be a bad thing. However that still leaves major expenses and potential liabilities when you cross a highway.
No matter who is in control of grade crossings....the potential for a fatal accident remains.
Keith

Wayne Laepple

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Re: FRA Regulations (Pilot, Grade Crossing, Brakes, etc.)
« Reply #40 on: April 03, 2012, 02:21:56 PM »
I agree with Keith on this. Although never involved in a fatal accident at a grade crossing, I have struck and been struck by highway vehicles while running trains. Even though trains cannot take evasive action, nor supersede the laws of physics, I had to appear in court, too.


Stewart "Start" Rhine

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Re: FRA Regulations (Pilot, Grade Crossing, Brakes, etc.)
« Reply #41 on: April 03, 2012, 03:46:35 PM »
The good thing about our crossing is that it's right at the station and there would be people around.  Protecting the crossing by flag man, etc. should be fairly easy.  Trains will be moving slowly and traffic has a long sight distance to the crossing.  Cross Road is a town road so the permission to cross comes from the town.  The crossing design with early warning signage comes from the state.  We would install heavier rail such as 80lb (in longer than 30' lengths) across the road so (A) there wouldn't be any joints in the crossing and (B) the rail would hold up better to snow plow traffic.  Guard rails could be installed as well.  The inner protects the flangeway and the outside protects the running rail from getting bent by the plow.  I don't know if we would have to install the rubber blocks or have a concrete pad for the crossing.

The crossing is something we will eventually build.  When depends on how far we build Northward and the situation with the grade going towards Wiscasset.

Stewart

Ira Schreiber

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Re: FRA Regulations (Pilot, Grade Crossing, Brakes, etc.)
« Reply #42 on: April 03, 2012, 04:19:57 PM »
I totally agree with the comments about liability and the potential dangers of a railroad crossing. That is the risk we take.
I was merely pointing out the regulations involved.
Stewart's example is right on target. With the multi-rail crossing, rubber should not be needed, just a good stone base and asphalt topping.

Joe Fox

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Re: FRA Regulations (Pilot, Grade Crossing, Brakes, etc.)
« Reply #43 on: April 03, 2012, 05:24:11 PM »
Now that this topic has been relocated, I want to state something from earlier about Monson #4. The FRA does not require a pilot on any steam engine like the #4 has right now, because if they did, 7470's pilot would not be legal. For example, 7470 still has her original pilot, which was, and still is the switching pilot on each end.

Now, back to the topic at hand. The FRA becomes strongly interested/involved once you cross a public highway. Even though they don't regulate the crossings them selves, they do inspect the safety of said crossing, track approaches, crossing signals if any, voltage going to the signal case if any, how visible all signs/signals are, all locomotives operating on the railroad, etc. The DOT is not responsible for anything else except the road ROW, the rest is expected to be handled  by the railroad.

Even though we will be an insular railroad, the FRA still has to get involved, just like most of the other tourist railroads that they deal with.

John McNamara

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Re: FRA Regulations (Pilot, Grade Crossing, Brakes, etc.)
« Reply #44 on: April 03, 2012, 05:47:22 PM »
Even though we will be an insular railroad, the FRA still has to get involved, just like most of the other tourist railroads that they deal with.
I question the phrase "we will be an insular railroad." As I understand it, we are currently insular and will continue to be insular until 1) we cross a public highway, or 2) we cross a navigable waterway, or 3) or we come within 30 yards (?) of another railway. If we do 1, 2, or 3, we will no longer be insular and will come under FRA jurisdiction.