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691

Archives (Museum) / Hillside slide, and more... *PICS*

« on: December 13, 2008, 12:18:59 AM »

MODERATORS NOTE:
Hillside slide, and more... *PICS* has been converted from the pre-July 2008 WW&F Discussion Forum.
Some formatting may have been removed or modified from the original postings that appear quoted in this topic.
Information contained within this post may be superseded by more recent postings and conversations.
Stephen Hussar wrote:

Took this pic a couple of weeks ago during a group walk up to Carleton Stream. It's not a total washout, but the west shoulder of this 100+ year old embankment has slid down the hill taking most of the trees with it.

Stephen Hussar replied:

Walking another beautiful stretch of the grade. Don't know what anyone else was thinking, but I couldn't help but picture no.9 rolling through here in the not too distant future...

Stephen Hussar replied:

Volunteer Joe Fox provides scale in this view across Carleton Stream.

Stephen Hussar replied:

The south approach to Carleton Stream. Museum members pose above a surviving wooden bridge timber.

John McNamara replied:

For the benefit of those unfamiliar with the "cast of characters," they are Zack Wyllie, Steve Smith, Gordon Cook, Jason Lamontagne, [?], Joe Fox, and James Patten. My apologies to [?], but I expect someone will correct my post.

Stephen Hussar replied:

Hi John, thats's Dave Olszewski. I really did mean to ID everyone but the phone rang...   

James Patten replied:

To give everybody perspective on the top picture, where Joe and Zack are standing is approximately the middle of the area where the track would be.  Jason's standing at the west edge of that area.

The picture doesn't do it justice, but the trees slumped away with the embankment.  In the hole is nothing but mud.

Dave Olszewski replied:

Thanks for posting photos on this website. Also thank for id me there. 

ETSRRCo replied:

Volunteer Joe Fox provides scale in this view across Carleton Stream.

Wow when I walked to Carleton Stream there was nowhere near that much water in it. I came in from the 218 side of the stream. I walked the other side of 218 and I must say that was a beautiful section of the railroad. Did you walk to Carleton from Alna Center? I would love to do that when I come up in the spring if someone would show me the way. How far up the line from Alna is that slide and that strait clear section?

-Eric
_________________
Eric Bolton
East Tigard & Southern Railroad Co 1889-1958

Josh Botting replied:

If anyone happened to notice, this morning on the news, Channel 6(2), there was a story on the river levels up here.  They showed the testing of the river in N. Whitefield.  They reported that the level was the highest recorded at that point for this time of year.  Very high....

Mike Fox replied:

Eric,
If you go to the North end of track, keep walking. It is probably a good mile and a half or more so be ready for it. A very nice stretch to walk through. And can't wait to get there with a train all though it looks like some work to repair the roadbed is necessary before that can happen. Most of the roadbed has a trail on it accept one spot north of Top of the mountain where there was a culvert removed or possibly it was a cattle overpass. No pictures exist of that stretch so one can only guess.
Mike

John McNamara replied:

Here's another picture (by Bob Cavanagh) of a bunch of volunteers at a brook crossing. In this case, it was Humason Brook on March 20, 1999. About two and a half years later (October 7, 2001), engine 51 was bringing flatcar 118 across a new trestle with a load of ties. So, while Steve's pictures presently look like the "middle of nowhere," we can always hope that history soon repeats itself, i.e. trains in a few years! Left to right: Vern Shaw, Marcel Levesque, Jason Lamontagne, Fred Morse, John McNamara, Zack Wyllie, James Patten, John Robertson.

Joe Fox replied:

Steve Hussar,

Great shots. Hopefully, the washout should be fine now that all of the trees are gone I hope.

Joe

Josh Botting replied:

If anyone should happen to look at the pictures of the wreck at trout brooke, it appears that the water level is high like it is now, or at least higher than normal.  I wonder if there was another dam in the river.....

Stewart Rhine replied:

Or maybe the fallen cars and locomotive impounded the water so the brook looked wider?

Joe Fox replied:

That is a very good possibility. Does anybody remember what caused the bridge to collapse? I remember reading it in the book Two Feet to Tidewater, however, I have forgotten what it said about it.

Joe

Bruce Wilson replied:

...and a stylish white duck was then seen to shake debris from his head, quiver a little and yell..."AFLACK!"

Mike Fox replied:

Another possibility for the water depth now, they logged in there some time ago and drug everything through the brook. Perhaps some debris from that filled it in a little.
Mike

BM1455 replied:

Hey Bruce....I'm sure that Jason is happy that you have re-introduced the duck to the museum discussion.
Eric Larsen.

Bruce Wilson replied:

Thanks Eric, but I actually wanted to give Stewart a good laugh. Who knows, perhaps in 2007 Conductor "Web" or Agent "Bill" a/k/a the "Hancock Duck" will re-emerge to haunt JML.

No one has ever taken such a beating from an innocent water fowl as did JML while working on a long ago rail salvage project up in Hancock...

One of Stewart's photos appearing in an issue of Railpace magazine even showed our feathered friend (or his concrete likeness) up in the second floor window of the Sheepscot shop.

Stewart Rhine replied:

Bruce, Yep - you got me good with Mr. Aflack ... it was LOL time!  Hey, we did have a great time with the "duck tale" back in the day.  Ducks on tree stumps at Davis, inside the train register cabinet and one on the front of number 10 - good times!   

Hancock Maine - a duck free work place.

Bruce Wilson replied:

Hey Stewart...all this great stuff needs to go into a handbook for benefit of the new guys at Sheepscot. (lol) But in all seriousness, I've noticed that the "old" photos of volunteers at work have drawn considerable interest. The time has sure gone by fast since my own first visit to Sheepscot in 1993. I've been busy researching what Linwood Moody and Richard Andrews wrote about the narrow gage in their days, now the antics of "our gang" need to be remembered.

Dana Deering replied:

Hey Bruce,

Ask Stewart about his midnight encounter with Sasquatch in a Union Suit.

Stewart Rhine replied:

Now THAT is one experience I'll not soon forget  Too bad I didn't have my camera to record the beast ...

Sheepscot, it's all summed up in the famous bumpah stickah -
"Life at the Narrow Gauge is O-TAY"

692

Archives (Museum) / Harry Percival Dedicated Event

« on: December 13, 2008, 12:18:10 AM »

MODERATORS NOTE:
Harry Percival Dedicated Event has been converted from the pre-July 2008 WW&F Discussion Forum.
Some formatting may have been removed or modified from the original postings that appear quoted in this topic.
Information contained within this post may be superseded by more recent postings and conversations.
Joe Fox wrote:

I think it would be a great idea if we could have an event, where special train are run dedicated to Harry Percival, and his family for all they have done to help recreate the museum. It could sort of be like Conway Scenic's birthday trains that they run, except ours would be dedicated to the life of Harry Percival and his family, since without them, none of this would even exist. Or if it did, it wouldn't be as big. Please let me know what you think of this idea. Thanks.

Joe

Mike Fox replied:

How about a founders day type of thing. Jason and James know more of when the Museum was started or when Harry started restoring the WW&F. Or Harry's birthday.
Mike

Bill Sample replied:

As Harry personally introduced me to the WW&F, I agree he should be honored along with others who got the project underway.
The world's first "preserved railway," the 2 ft 3 inch gauge Talyllyn in Wales UK, honors their primary founder with the "Tom Rolt Vintage Rallye."
Maybe the theme of the event could be to reflect on the history of both the old and new W&Q/WW&F operations.
If scheduling an additional day for this would be too difficult, maybe the annual picnic could be designated as the Harry Percival/Founders Day.

MikeW replied:

I think this is a terrific idea.  Harry Percival was there the first day my brother and I came to volunteer clearing brush just beyond where the new water tank is.  I also have a picture on our refrigerator of him in the Railcar with my son and daughter.  This would be a very timely and thoughtful gesture to the family!

Joe Fox replied:

Bill,

I don't think the Annual Picnic should be dedicated to him since that is all ready a scheduled event. I mean, make a new event, and have it on a weekend, near Harry's birthday.

Joe

Stewart Rhine replied:

I think Mike and Joe have good ideas.  A Founder's Day event may be the way to go.  I spoke to Clarissa the other day and I mentioned your ideas to her.  She liked it and told me "yes, Harry started the museum and there were others who helped in the early stages of the operation".  Her point was that it is good to honor Harry but don't forget the others who have contributed so much through the years.   I knew Harry and I know he wanted the railroad to be the star.  He liked publicity as long as it helped with the cause of rebuilding the WW&F.  A founders Day, (maybe in the Fall?), would be a good way to remember Harry and the early members who formed the Sheepscot Valley Railroaders.  I think we should have a lunch for the members and then run special passenger trains with coaches 8 and 3.  The charter and long time members could give a narrative of where the railroad was extended to each year and what the operation was like at that time.

Steam replied:

It might also be a fine idea to round up all video sources and put together a commemorative DVD showing the creation of the museum, from as early as possible up to the present. Make it a souvenir or a gift to members or whatever.  Someone must have shot tape of the first work, and then successive stages of work.  I know I have some from the mid-90s, but others must have earlier footage than that.  What do you think?

Richard Symmes

Allan Fisher replied:

Everybody pushed me to get "Restoration Stories" on a DVD - which Steve Hussar graciously helped me with - but I have sold only 5 in 18months - and have sold over 200 VCR's  - I assume that most of my Railfan and member audience is either very thrifty or is not equipped with the technology.

John McNamara replied:

I suspect that both economy and technology are involved, as Allan suggests. The Restoration Stories VHS tape sells for $19.95, which is just under the $20 price resistance point. Further, people expect to pay $19.95 for a VHS tape.

In contrast, the DVD sells for 80% more ($34.95) and does not provide 80% more value. While DVDs used to command a price premium, most catalogs are now pricing DVD versions of various television programs at or below the VHS tape price. I realize that a limited run DVD is expensive to produce, but the preception in the market now is that DVDs should be the same price or cheaper than VHS.

Joe Fox replied:

I think that the reason why the DVD's haven't sold very good is because it isn't just about the W, W, & F, and others, like me, most likely had all ready bought a tape before the DVD came out. I have some footage of the museum, taken from 2000, to the present day.

Joe

Stewart Rhine replied:

Since we already have the great Restoration Stories program on "commercial" DVD, what if we assemble a Power Point presentation on the history of the museum.  The period covered would be from 1989 to the present.  We can take vintage tape and stills, add maps and narration and create a power point piece.  The guys at my fire house have made some real nice presentations with music and narratives.  The programs have been shown to visiting groups and put on DVD.  The work was done with no cost except the blank disks to burn copies.  We could produce a program to show museum visitors and play at train shows.  Copies could be made for the gift shop.  The presentation could be shown during the meal at Founders Day. I bet our computer crew could put a program  together.

Speaking of which - How about having an evening meal for the volunteers on Founders Day.  Harry's birthday is July 1st so we could hold it on the weekend closest to that day.  Special passenger and freight trains would be run and we would have an evening supper for the volunteers.  Charter and original members from 1989-90 could be acknowledged.  All volunteers would be invited to come and have a meal together when we aren't getting dirty working.  I think this would be a good time for everyone from the 18 year volunteers to the newest members.

James Patten replied:

A powerpoint presentation is a great idea.  It should be targeted toward visits to external groups.  See the Long Range Plan's idea about this.

A Founder's Day might want to be the last weekend in June, just so that anything we do doesn't conflict with Independence Day.  OTOH Independence Day is really the Founder's Day for our country, so maybe it is a good idea to celebrate both at the same time.

Joe Fox replied:

I have a lot of experience with power points, and have been told by every teacher that I have, that I am one of the best students at making power points. However, I don't add in any fancy things such as sound effects and things like that. If you guys would like me to make it, just send me the photos that you might have, either in person, or by email. The only question is, what do we do with the power point once it is finished, and how do we present it?

Joe

John McNamara replied:

Joe,

I think that would be wonderful! Here's an extract from the Long Range Plan that suggests some possible goals for a PowerPoint presentation.

The presentation of the Museum to the outside world has a spotty history at best. Our method of "taking the show on the road" still relies on slides and an off-the-cuff speech. Clearly this must change if the Museum is to become more professional in getting our message out.

Face-to-face presentations about the Museum to various groups have happened for many years, thanks to Harry Percival and his slide show.  This slide show still exists in its entirety, although other volunteers have created their own slide shows from their own excellent photos.  During 2005 and 2006, an up-to-date presentation should be developed, both for the computer (PowerPoint presentations) and for slides, with a script developed for it.  This presentation should last no longer than 30 to 40 minutes, thus allowing time at the end of an hour program for questions.  The electronic presentation can be made available to anybody that wants it for the price of mailing a CD or downloading a file.

Upon completion of this presentation (estimated in 2006), a concentrated effort should begin to visit every civic and historical group located on or near the railroad corridor that will let us show our presentation: Granges, Masons, Lions Clubs, Rotary Clubs, and historical societies to name a few.  Additionally, we can encourage members and friends all over the country to do the same.  By this, we raise awareness about us to influential groups, who may someday provide us with donations, services, or members.

As you can see, the projected time scale for this was 2006, so you still have a few weeks left 

Joe Fox replied:

Okay John,

So I take it, that it would have things such as a historical time line, and some points of interest along todays route. And whatever photos that any body has taken of Track Laying Weekends, steam engines running, and any ideas that can be emailed to me, or given to me in person would be great. Thanks

Joe

Josh Botting replied:

Joe,

I have a masters in power point engineering, and also you don't know power point until you deal with the government.
If you need assistance let me know, I have contemplated this in the past.

Joe Fox replied:

Hey Josh,

If you would like, I can send you the rough product, when I get it done, and you can feel free to add, or delete any thing you want to the presentation.

Joe

Stewart Rhine replied:

Josh and Joe,  FYI - Roger Whitney has video tape from the 1998 and 99 picnics when we ran Monson 3 at the museum.

Joe Fox replied:

I have some photage of #10 during the Annual Picnic of 2005. I also have some night time shots, and that is about it. Please feel free to email me any photos that any body has, so that I can start getting the power point ready. I will give an E.T.C. (estimated time of completion) once the power point is started. Thanks

Joe

Josh Botting replied:

Joe,

I have about a thousand pics, and a couple of hundred videos, less than a min, If you need any.....

Joe Fox replied:

Sure thing Josh. Pick out the best photos that you like the most, and send them to me. As the photos go into the power point, I will be sure to add the photographers name under the photo. I would like a few photos of the steepest portions of the grade, and Cockeyed curve, near the wreck of 1929 would be great. Note, this is for anybody who has these photos.

Thanks

Joe

James Patten replied:

Hey, I work for the Government....I can add great complexity to your lives and power points if you want me too 

Joe Fox replied:

Sure thing James. I hope to start tomorrow, if I get some photos in from some people. Anybody that has any photos of the museum, feel free to email them to me. Thanks.

Joe

fjknight replied:

Joe,

Look here for 234 of my pictures:
http://picasaweb.google.com/FJKnight/WWF

Frank Knight

Josh Botting replied:

Joe,

Videos don't transmit well over dial up, so I can put some on a disk and drop it off, there may be a couple of the cds from the halloween trains which I dropped there last month, for general consumption.

Joe Fox replied:

Ok Josh and Frank.

Frank, I will go through your photo list 12/8/06, Friday, and pick out the ones that I like the most, and use them on the power point. I have seen a few of them, and some are going to be hard not to add, but must be eliminated any way. That is one thing I hate about doing power points, is you can all ways find great photos, that you just don't need, or can't fit in with the power point.

Joe

Bruce Wilson replied:

Harry Percival said to me many times that he never wished to be known as the founder of the W.W. & F. Railway Museum. I used to tease him about this thinking that he was only being modest. As a teacher would do to a student, he looked me right in the eye and cited his reasons, among them being Internal Revenue Service (tax) concerns. His early efforts were the purchase of the remaining assets (as James has accurately stated elsewhere in this forum) and the resurrection of the Wiscasset & Quebec Railroad Corporation.

Certainly the Sheepscot Valley Railroaders and present day Wiscasset, Waterville & Farmington Railway Museum are as a direct result to Harry's leadership role.

In my heart, I share a respect for what Harry has created and I remember his request not to be referred to as the founder.

Harry put up the money to purchase what he later found to be assets and one of America's oldest railroad charters. He and his early supporters decided to organize by having memberships. From memory, I believe that Charter Member No. 1 was Miss Alice Ramdell of West Thompson, CT.; and again testing my memory I believe that Edgar Mead was CM-2.
(Allan, please step in and correct me if I am wrong on these membership numbers and who they are assigned to).

I asked Harry one time how it was that he wasn't Charter Member no. 1 (I think he bought CM-3 slot) and he stated to me that he had all his money tied up in W & Q affairs and couldn't afford the $100 membership fee at the time the memberships began to be offered.

Harry had a property up in Somerville, Maine that he designed and constructed as a house, but set up with framing in one wall to be removed easily to allow for a certain Portland Company (serial no. 622) steam locomotive to be brought inside and outfitted with a provision for a pit to be created under where the locomotive would be stored.

I mention this only to point out that he was involved in many things (seemingly all at once) as momentum built in those early days. Among these were his regular visits to the Ramsdell farm to help Alice and win her confidence.

Joe Fox replied:

Thanks.

I must say that I wish I would have gotten to know Harry, however, I didn't, but everytime I go to the museum, I can't help but think about him and his family, and all of the stuff that they did to help start the museum.

Joe

Dave Olszewski replied:

Joe,

Look here for 234 of my pictures:
http://picasaweb.google.com/FJKnight/WWF

Frank Knight

Thanks for nice photos on website. They looked great. I was surprised to see flood across from depot. I wish I was there. I just started volunteer there. I am not sure if I meet you or not. I have been work there since Sept.

Dave

Dave Olszewski replied:

Thanks.

I must say that I wish I would have gotten to know Harry, however, I didn't, but everytime I go to the museum, I can't help but think about him and his family, and all of the stuff that they did to help start the museum.

Joe

I wish I would meet Harry, too. It was good that he start rebuild WW&F Railway and spend $40,000.00 on it. We can work and have fun there.

Dave

Allan Fisher replied:

CM1 - Alice Ramsdale
CM2 -Edgar Mead
CM3 - Jost Wold
CM4 - Rick Bourdon - WW&F Treasurer
CM5 - Peter Barney
CM6 - Harry E. Percival Jr

Bruce Wilson replied:

Thank you Allen...

Joe Fox replied:

Dave,

I remember this past February, we got a lot of heavy rain, and we worked inside all day on Flat Car 126, and at Lunch time the water was at the old railroad grade. At three p.m. the railroad track would have been in three feet of water, and Cross Road became flooded, and then the power went out just as I was taking photos of the intire thing. A tree branch snapped, and took down the power lines across from Clarissa's house, and then we all went home early, since we couldn't see what we were doing. Talk to you later.

Joe

Stewart Rhine replied:

Bruce said it best.  Harry was very firm about not being called the "founder" of the museum.  I spent a good bit of time with him when I  worked at the railroad for two weeks each Spring and Fall.  Sometimes we drove to places along the WW&F and KC and he showed me landmarks.  A couple times he invited me to dinner at the Grange Hall.  Those were great experiences.  One time I thanked him for starting the museum.  He gave me the same response that Bruce heard.  He didn't want to be thought of as the one who founded or started the museum.  He wanted the railroad to get the attention. He told me that there were a number of people who had a hand in getting things off the ground.   I didn't bring it up again but a couple of years later, a bunch of us gave him WW&F brass lantern number 1 at dinner.  It was our way of surprising him and saying thanks without having some ceremony that he wouldn't like.  His smile said it all.

Joe Fox replied:

Ok. Why not call the event W, W, & F Ry Museum birthday, and have it go to the memory of Harry Percival.

Joe

Stewart Rhine replied:

Or we could call it "Founders Day" which would include other early backers like John Christopher and Edgar Mead.

BTW- There is a photo of Harry with his brass WW&F Railway lantern in the Nov/Dec, 2000 issue of the newsletter.  Ten brass lanterns were made by A&W.  They were numbered 1-10 in our shop.  Harry received number 1 and number 9 was kept for use on engine 9 when it was restored.

Joe Fox replied:

Ok. But the trains can't be set up, or run in the same manner as the Annual Picnic, other wise, people would only show up for one of the two events.

Joe

Bill Sample replied:

Not to belittle all the effort of other members, I always thought of Harry as being the "heart and soul" of the WW&F and think I even mentioned that to him at some point.  To honor his modesty as well as his accomplishments, I agree that "Founder's Day" would be a good name.
I'm sure that at any Founder's Day event, various Harry stories will be told to keep his memory alive.
During one visit  a number of years ago, Sue and I stopped by and Harry was there, along with the Model T from Owl's Head.  He asked us if we'd like to go for a ride, and of course we said yes.  Think the track went up to the high voltage power lines or just south of them, and I remember walking northward a bit with clouds of blackflies around Sue and me but they didn't bother Harry at all. During that walk he metioned something about making sure that when the power line poles were replaced, the new poles carried the wires high enough to accommodate the future railway line.  Just another one of those things he did to help the revival!
Hard to believe he's been gone for almost 5 years.

Joe Fox replied:

I met Harry one time when we visited the museum back when the track went all the way to the northern end of Cockeyed Curve. I wish I would have been able to know him in person, but as I have said before, you can't work at the museum, and not think about the plans that Harry had invisioned for the railroad, how they are now, and his family. It is sad to hear that Clarissa isn't doing so well.

Joe

Dave Olszewski replied:

Ok. But the trains can't be set up, or run in the same manner as the Annual Picnic, other wise, people would only show up for one of the two events.

Joe

It will be nice to have Founder Day on other day than Picnic Event. Maybe it would on same month that he was passed away  or he start rebuild WW&F Railway. Does any Harry's children work there? I know his grandchildren were playing and visiting around there.

Dave

James Patten replied:

The challenge would be to do something different, that involves something other than trains.  Yes, we'd still want to run trains (of course!) but maybe a "founder's day fair" up at Alna Center to give people incentive to ride the train.  Maybe run the entire day with all the original equipment (9, 3, 118, and 309).

None of Harry's children are involved or really that interested in the railroad museum.  The grandkids you saw (probably back in September) were from his daughter's family from West Virginia.  She has something like 8 or 9 kids.

Jason M Lamontagne replied:

I think such an event is extremely important.  I agree with James- this isn't about train operation.  A nice dinner, maybe some dedications, so forth.

We need to find a way to show our respect for Harry while respecting his views (on founders).

see ya
jason

Joe Fox replied:

Maybe, at somepoint during the event, take the time, and have a moment of silence to rember Harry, and the others that helped start the museum?

Joe

Stewart Rhine replied:

James has a good idea about Founders Day.  We should run a special train with all of the original WW&F rolling stock pulled by engine 9.  Having museum history exhibits at Sheepscot and Alna Center is another good idea.  As I posted before, I think we should have an evening banquet where we can acknowledge the Harry and our founders.  A look at the years progress, volunteer awards, and future plans would be highlighted.  The dinner could be held at the Alna Fire Station hall.

Stephen Hussar replied:

We have been talking about a granite marker and (bronze) plaque honoring Harry & Clarissa. What do people think about an Atwood-style marker? It would be a place on the railroad where the locomotive perhaps blows its whistle in honor of ALL the founders. The marker could be set in place there on the first Founders Day, and each year the train could stop there for a moment of silence, or one long whistle, on the day of the event.
_________________
*                *                    *                   *
"Give me enough Swedes and whiskey and I'll build a railroad to Hell."
- James J. Hill

Mike Fox replied:

Nice Idea again Steve. I like it. At the stop a brief speech could be given for the public to know who everybody was and how important a role they played in getting the museum to where it is today.
Mike

Bill Sample replied:

Steve, I really like the granite marker proposal.
When we mention the founders, Alice Ramsdell is included.  I feel that some mention should also be made about her father (think it was Frank, don't have my books handy!) and his project partner (William Monypenny?) who were the first to preserve the equipment.
I remember Harry talking about his visits to the Ramsdell farm, where he'd help Alice with various farm projects as well as keeping his eye on the equipment.  She invited me over there back in the 80s and I kick myself for never going!

Joe Fox replied:

I know what marker you're talking about now. I had to remember, but I saw it on a map, and they called it Atwood Memorial, I think. That would be neat, but I still think it would be good to also have a founder day, or W, W, & F Ry Museum Birhtday, or something like that.

Joe

Bruce Wilson replied:

Older readers will recall that in our Country's history, we had Washington's Birthday as a holiday to honor the memory of our first president, George Washington. Citizens chose to honor Washington with his own holiday, because he was an extraordinary President and it was widely felt that he should be so honored (independently) of all other Presidents. With the advent of political correctness, we now honor all of our presidents equally, with "President's Day". By this process, we have lost our special recognition of George Washington.

To honor Harry Percival is an excellent idea. The suggestion of a whistle post to his memory such as is done at Edaville Railroad is very appropriate. At Edaville, the whistle (or diesel horn) blows twice "in honor of Ellis D. Atwood".

Harry needs to be recognized alone for what he did in re-establishing the Wiscasset & Quebec Railroad and encouraging a group of volunteers to begin the fledgling Sheepscot Valley Railroaders, later to become the Wiscasset, Waterville & Farmington Railway Museum.

A granite marker at the whistle post is good, a speech and remembrances of Harry at a dinner is also a good beginning. Regardless of what you all determine to be best in honoring Harry, please count me in as a supporter of your project. If you would like me to say a few words about Harry, I would be honored to do so. And I would look forward to collaborating with those of you who have have remembrances that you would wish to share. Stewart, I'd love to hear your stories as well.

James Patten replied:

I think a Founder's Day might be good to draw people in if it were held once every few years.  We should have several of these events that we hold once in a while, but enough of them so that we have a different one every year.  For instance, there was a Sam Sewall Day one year, before my time, where descendants of Sam Sewall were honored.  I'd like to repeat the Pleasure Island Rememberance Day every so often.  So if we have a few rotating events, it will stay fresh whenever it comes around.  A dinner for the founders one year, a dinner for the Sewall descendants another year, a dinner for Pleasure Islanders a third year.

Bill Reidy replied:

Would somewhere near the Humason Brook trestle be a good spot for the granite memorial?  Harry designed the new trestle, and it was built and the first train ran over it shortly before he passed away.

Bill

Mike Fox replied:

Bill,
I Like that location too. On the East side of the tracks just South of the trestle would be an ideal spot I think.
Mike

Joe Fox replied:

What activities would we include for the special events James?

Joe

James Patten replied:

Activities?  Other than relettering #10 for Pleasure Island Day I can't think of anything.

Dave Buczkowski replied:

Mike,
Actually, I like the southwest side of the trestle. That is where I remember Harry in his favorite hat directing the Marine Construction crew. And I think it's one of the prettiest spots on the railroad (as built).
Dave

Stewart Rhine replied:

Steve,  Great idea with placing a marker.  The southwest corner of the Humason Brook trestle would be a good spot for it.   As Bill noted, Harry designed the span.  I saw Harry's plans in 2000.  He had everything drawn out, right down to the pre-fabed bent components.  He also built a scale model of the trestle as a guide for the construction.  When the Marines had the East stringer in place, Harry was the first one to cross it, walking from the South end.  I have the photo, (taken by Bob C.) of Harry crossing while everyone watched and applauded.

A special stop and whistle salute would be a good way to remember Harry.

The Founders Day banquet could include the power point presentation that Joe is working on.

Mike Fox replied:

Once again I got my east and west mixed up. That's what I meant but not what I typed. Glad someone is paying attention.
Mike

Dave Buczkowski replied:

Got 'cher back, Mike!
Dave

Steve Zuppa replied:

The southwest corner of the trestle gets my vote, as well.
Steve
_________________
"Keep to the code!"
Capt. Jack Sparrow

Josh Botting replied:

I was dreaming at some point today on this topic.  A couple of years ago we did an event on the first day of spring.  #10 was run in the snow.  I think the steam is most beautyrul in the snow.  It would be neat to do an event with steam in a time which there is more likeley to be snow, since we can't depend on it for the Christmas trains.  So I am thinking the begining of Feb. or end of January, when there is real snow.  While it would a bit of work to keep the track open, however it would be a unique I think......

Josh Botting replied:

Oh yeah,

In addition I was thinking that the event should be on a day when we wouldn't normally run steam.  In order to bring the crowds of members, and public, as well as to make it a truely special event.....

Joe Fox replied:

If that were the case Josh, the engine would have to be fired up sometime somewhere between the Fall Track Laying weekend, and the Victorian Christmas runs. Then after the new year, the only time I can think of that doesn't bother the cleaning, would be from the Spring Equinox, to the Spring Track Laying weekend.

Joe

Josh Botting replied:

Joe,

I think my point was to hold the event between the Christmas trains, and the Spring Equinox.  In a time when we do not usually run steam.

Joe Fox replied:

Ok,

But Jason said that #10 under goes it's annual cleaning during that time period. The middle of January, is when he said the cleaning process starts.

Joe

Jason M Lamontagne replied:

We could fire No 10 for a special event almost anytime- especially for one this important.  We can work it around clean out somehow- as we would for a winter photo day.

February isn't a great railroading month generally speaking- lots of fun though!

Joe Fox replied:

How long does the clean out take Jason?

Joe

Josh Botting replied:

If we put out a call for grunts, I am sure several of us would show up....

Jason M Lamontagne replied:

One day for clean out, and I'll gladly put out a call for help when I know the date.  It'll be second or third weekend in January probably.  I'm going to rent a steam cleaner most likely- does a great job.

This Saturday we'll decide if we're going to try to run in early January or not, and that will determine the clean out date.

In any case, I'd support a tribute event any time of year.  We should make it just as special as we can.

see ya
jason

Bruce Wilson replied:

The Atwood Whistle Post at Edaville was installed at a point nearest the final resting place of Ellis & Elthea Atwood. It was also at a spot where the couple enjoyed the view over the reservoir at sunset ("Sunset Vista").

The suggestion of installing a whistle post to Harry's memory (at Humason Brook trestle) is appropriate as this is a significant spot to his memory.

Prior to seeing the Humason Brook posting, I had been thinking that a whistle post at the Top of the Mountain might be another location to consider. In my opinion, a whistle sounded at the Top of the Mountain would carry throughout the surrounding Headtide area. Harry once lived in the red cape style home just north of the Headtide cut. It was his goal to have the railroad restored at least as far as the cut.

If this is to be the northern terminus, maybe a granite whistle post could be installed in this area...?

Joe Fox replied:

I don't think people will like the whistle being blown at the mountain, especially since some of our neighbors complain if the whistle is blown beyond Alna Center.

Joe

Stephen Hussar replied:

My thought was that it wouldn't really be a whistle post, but more of a small granite marker or monument. And that the train would only stop there and pay tribute on the actual date of the Founder's Day event, and perhaps only during one special run on that day(?)

And keeping the marker on the small-ish side and not having the spot become an everyday whistle stop, would be in keeping with Harry's wishes of not being the focus, while at the same time not overwhelming or altering the landscape significantly. (since there seemed to be some agreement for the spot overlooking Humason, that's still where I'm picturing this)
_________________
*                *                    *                   *
"Give me enough Swedes and whiskey and I'll build a railroad to Hell."
- James J. Hill

Mike Fox replied:

Steve,
Yes a small but visible marker in that spot would be great. Next to the tree line. Not a headstone but something like it I suppose.
Mike

Joe Fox replied:

It could be made to look like a scaled down version of like a Standard gauge milepost.

Joe

Stephen Hussar replied:

Joe, I'm afraid that any kind of vertical marker might stand out too much. I am going to start collecting images of stone markers which we can use for inspiration. They're all around, let's see what we can find out there...
_________________
*                *                    *                   *
"Give me enough Swedes and whiskey and I'll build a railroad to Hell."
- James J. Hill

Steam replied:

For years at Edaville RR the trains whistled at a wooden sign about half way around the reservoir. The sign said something to the effect of:  "Trains whistle here in memory of Ellis D. Atwood, Founder of Edaville RR"

Perhaps something like that would work.

Richard Symmes

Joe Fox replied:

It could work Richard.
Steve, isn't that the entire purpose of the memorial, is to have it stand out?
So people don't get confused, it would still be great if an actual date for this event could be discussed, because that is actually what we are trying to plan is a dedicated event to the founders, but a marker of some sort would be nice also.

Joe

693

Archives (Museum) / The Museum Webmaster Needs Your Help!

« on: December 13, 2008, 12:16:16 AM »

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James Patten wrote:

One of the things I started to do on the Museum website, but never finished, is a map with points of interest of places along the original railroad.  These points of interest sites would have "then" pictures and "now" pictures to compare and contrast what the area looked like while the railroad was running, and now 70+ years later.  Pictures during the interim would be nice-to-haves, but not absolutely required.

So this is a call for help.  Anyone that has pictures of any old station, bridge, cut, curve, outbuilding, or wreck location as it was then or is now is welcome to send pictures to me.  Descriptive words so that I don't have to think much would be of great help.  Even better would be to put them on a website somewhere and send me the link so that I can download them at my leisure, but if you cannot do that, please send them to me via email, not to my regular address, but to mailto:jcpatten@gmail_nospam_.com  (you should remove the "_nospam_" from the email, which I included so that spammer sites will get a false address).

Bill Reidy replied:

Hi James,

Unfortunately I don't have any historic photos, but if someone else can provide the images, I could build some of the web pages if that is a help.

Bill

James Patten replied:

Bill, I'd be happy to split up some of the load if you're willing.

Bill Reidy replied:

I'm willing!

694

Archives (Museum) / this weekend?

« on: December 13, 2008, 12:15:21 AM »

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this weekend? has been converted from the pre-July 2008 WW&F Discussion Forum.
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petecosmob wrote:

Will there be steam this weeekend (saturday)?
I'll be by the museum sometime sat with my daughter and (hopefully) my mom and dad.
See you then,
Pete

James Patten replied:

No active steam this weekend, but we will be working on dismantling #9.

petecosmob replied:

So will diesel #52 be running? I know it has on that weekend in the past.

James Patten replied:

Yes, whenever steam doesn't run the diesel operates, at least until Christmas.  After that it depends on snow cover and how cold you want to be.

petecosmob replied:

Awesome!
With the assurance of a trian ride, I belive I casn talk my folks into coming down on thier way back to MA.
See y'all on saturday!
Cosmo

695

Work and Events / Whitefield Section House - Official Work Thread

« on: December 13, 2008, 12:14:40 AM »

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Mike Fox wrote:

All,
I just had a thought. Vern Shaw built the handcar this year and was just posting in the car storage topic when this idea came to me. How about a replicated Head Tide Section house to put the handcar in. I see the handcar being used as a table or what have you while at the museum. A replicated section house would be a nice place to keep that. And keep it looking nice. Any thoughts on this??
Mike

Stewart Rhine replied:

Mike,  Back a few weeks ago this was discussed on one of the threads.  It is a good idea.  I suggested that we build a section house on the East side of the mainline in the level area just North of the water tank.  A larger one would house the handcar, air car, and fire car. A jigger track would be run from the house out to the East rail of the main.  The area would be planked over to aid in turning the cars.  Wayne has a plan to build a handcar turntable which would enable the crews to turn the heavier cars.

James Patten replied:

Vern's handcar is only the beginning.  Vern has plans on building another handcar, plus taking the parts of two velocipedes and making ... two whole velocipedes out of them.

Then there's Leon's railcar, which once it arrives and gets wheels will need a place to live.  This first railcar is one much like the SR&RL #2 owned by the Owl's Head Transportation Museum.  Leon would like to build a second one when he's done with this, much more like the Sewall inspection car.

So we need to think ahead for storage for these.

Joe Fox replied:

Any locomotive, such as the inspection car that Leon is building, should go in the round house when and if it is built. Until that point, the car would need a place to live. However, like James and Stewart have said, the work flats and the hand car(s) can go in a building much like a section house like my dad has suggested.

Joe

Mike Fox replied:

Wayne has suggested something largher than Head Tide might be in order. Like the one in Whitefield. Unless there is another picture of one someplace, the only photo I could find was the one by the Iron bridge.
To me, this does not look larger so it cannot be the right one. I'm sure we can come up with something that will fit our needs and look authentic at the same time. Guess I'll have to do some research.
Mike

Wayne Laepple replied:

I don't have any adequate way to scale it out, but just looking at the door on the Whitefileld section house, it looks to be at least half again as big as the Head Tide building. It looks like its about 10 or 12 by 16 feet to me. But maybe it's because the Head Tide building is entered from the gable end. The Head Tide building may be "deeper."

Either one would be large enough for the handcar and the two velocipedes, since the outriggers are removable. Eventually, the Model T should have its own building or live in the roundhouse.

Stewart Rhine replied:

The section/handcar house could have 2 doors with 2 jigger tracks.  If the building was 14X16 with two tracks, you could store one car behind the other and everything would be on the rails.  The only problem with this arrangement is when the car you need is behind another car and a double move is required.  The 2 door handcar house would allow storing 4 cars or the spare set of trucks under cover.  It wouldn't be prototypical but we could make it look good.  A higher roof pitch would allow space for storing parts or supplies, like oil for the air car, on shelves above the cars.

Wayne Laepple replied:

If the drawings of the Head Tide section house on page 90 of Volume I of "Narrow gauge in the Sheepscot Valley" are accurate, the building is 10 x 16 feet. The building at Whitefield seems to be about the same size, but is configured differently. Do any drawings exist of that style? Either one would be able to house two handcars and two velocipedes. A leanto could be attached to one side to shelter the pushcars. I'm not certain the compressor car and fire car could be swung on the lightweight turntable, however. It's basically a wooden "H" with strap steel on the wheel bearing surface and not meant for heavy-duty use.

Sections houses often featured a bench across the back or along one side, where the trackemen could repair their tools. Tools were stored in racks or stacked neatly in the corners. Since we would have a tool house just across the tracks, perhaps only rarely used items should be stored in the section house. Let's try to keep both places neat and uncluttered!

James Patten replied:

We believe that the Head Tide section house still exists.  Just to the north of the Horse People's house (the cape at the corner of 218 and the road into Head Tide) is a house with two outbuildings, one or both of which might possibly be original railroad buildings.

Incidentally, this house (and property) are for sale.

Wayne Laepple replied:

Sounds like it's time for some industrial archeology disguised as a house-buying trip!

Joe Fox replied:

If you guys give me all of the materials that you would like to use, such as the size of the wood, and any type of material, the size of the building, and I can give you guys the ruff estimating figure. Talk to you later.

Joe

Stephen Hussar replied:

Sounds like it's time for some industrial archeology disguised as a house-buying trip!

This is a very small house in need of some serious TLC. I believe the asking price is around $100K...

And speaking of extant railroad buildings, while driving up to Albion we noticed that all the old structures along the ROW in Whitefield have either fallen down or been bulldozed. One of these was rumored to have been used by the WW&F as a machine shop.

Wayne Laepple replied:

Steve H. told me earlier today he'd try to get a couple of photos of the alleged Head Tide section house this weekend. Wouldn't it be cool to retreive it after all these years and put it back in service, albeit at Sheepscot? (At least for now.....)

Allan Fisher replied:

It is the bigger of the two shanties at the Gray House, and is no larger that 10 X 14 if that.

I have been inside , and I doubt any of the original wood is still inm the building as it was rebuilt about thjrity years ago and also 5 years ago.

Stephen Hussar replied:

I believe a small amount of ROW is included in the parcel. And the roadbed is right behind the house.  

Josh Botting replied:

We looked at the depressing little house last year about this time.  The house is terribly small with a very low cealing, and is very over priced.  The agent claimed that the small building was built as a temp home for the people while building the house.  But I don't know, it looks oldish, but you never know.  30 yrs ago is about when the house was built.  The property line is to the center of the ROW.  There was however little land associated with it, and whats there is rubish filled.

BM1455 replied:

The overall size of the original sectionhouse was 10 X 16 or there abouts so Alan's guess is very close.  When rebuilt they probably just re-used the sills and floor.  (Perhaps the beams as well?)

Perhaps we could get a member interested in this lot but as previously mentioned, the house needs a lot of TLC.  We tried last year but to no avail.  One issue is that the site may also be on the location, or close to where the original station was, which would rais other issues about keeping the house there.  The asking price is currently way too high....dreamland price.  If this lot could be had more reasonably it would be a good aquisition for the organization's long term success as it could provide a good end point or terminal location.
EL

Wayne Laepple replied:

So are you guys saying, Josh and E., that the section house remains don't resemble the original building any more? If so, I guess this thread ends and we can move on to a discussion of building a replica of Head Tide or some other section house.

Mike Fox replied:

Well going by that building is out then if has been extensively remodeled. So starting back with the approx 10X16 figures for the head tide section house, it does not seem big enough for what everyone wants to put in it.  How big would it need to become to be useful to us? I think a 14X20 built to look like the original accept with 2 tracks should give room enough for about 4 items. Maybe more. I think it is agreed the ideal place for it is just north of the water tower. Plenty of room once the tank is installed on the water tower. Any thoughts??
Mike

BM1455 replied:

I actually like the idea of just sticking to a replica of the Head Tide building for now.  First of all, we are starting to have the yard area become a urban planning zone with all of the proposed construction that people are talking about.  One of the things visitors/ railfans always say about us is that they like our museum because we are not just "collecting" buildings and moving them to our headquarters area, a la Sheepscot.  Another issue is that if we make a replica, we could someday move it to the original location if we can get there.  (I think that if we realy want to, we could get there)  Finaly, I have been involved in the veloceped project for a long time.  I have heard of a/the hand car project for almost as long, and the same goes for the railcar.  None of these things has moved along very quickly to say the least so why get building large structures that will change the yard area drasticly for things we don't know we will even see for years?  The veloceped was made for us in the mid 1990's and it still is not done.  (10 years of no progress beond what the guy who generously made it for us back then was able to do himself)  Vern has made one handcar and it is great but when will the other be built?
This is not intended as any slam on any one who is involved in these projuects.  It is just to point out that there is a huge laps in time between when these klinds of projects get mentioned, and when they actully get done.  By the time they are a reality there may be better places to but one or two of these things besides Sheepscot.  (How about a top of the mountain handcar/ section house, or some other place like the real railroad would have done instead of making a small city at Sheepscot.)
EL

Wayne Laepple replied:

I'm all for a replica of the Head Tide section house, which was 11 x 16, according to Stewart, who found that information on the ICC valuation report. If it is located north of the water tank on the east side of the main track, it can house the handcar and the two velocipedes, as well as some of the tools currently kept in the tool house. I envision it as a place to keep items not used on a regular basis, such as the insta-tracks and the rail bender and some of the track jacks. On operating days, the doors could be opened and the handcar rolled part way out for viewing by passengers. And in the future, it could be loaded on a flatcar and taken back to Head Tide! Personally, I wouldn't be in favor of putting a "working" section house at Alna Center or Top of the Mountain for fear that unauthorized visitors would break in or set the place on fire or shoot it full of holes.

Josh Botting replied:

My recolection of the "section house" was that there was a hodgepodge of floor, sitting directly on the ground, not necessarily makeing it to the walls.  From inside it was clear that the walls were supported by a random slection of stones, the lumber didn't look particularly old, however I was only there for a few mins.  There was definatly a new and old section of the building.....

Stewart Rhine replied:

I still like the idea of a 14X20 two door, two track section house.  It would be a scaled down version of the SR&RL's Phillips freight house with the doors at each corner of the front.  The doors would slide towards the center so both could be open at the same time.  Each end would have a window for light.  Shelves would be built in the back and over the car storage area.  If the flooring was 2X6 or 2X10 hard wood, cars could be placed anywhere inside the building.    Roll the cars up the jigger track and into the building then position them on their flanges.  Plank over the junction of the jigger tracks and East rail of the mainline for easier turning of the cars.  This would give us a good building for most of our smaller cars.  As I said before, why place a 5 foot high car in a building like our engine house.  It's a waste of space.

I agree with Wayne.  Any building up the line that looks like it holds tools or equipment will get broken into - or worse.

BM1455 replied:

This idea was posted twice by people and has some merit but...

"I agree with Wayne. Any building up the line that looks like it holds tools or equipment will get broken into - or worse"

....have we had any trouble at Alna Ctr even with a publicly accessible road into it?  None that I'm aware of.  The top of the mountain is on private property so I doubt we would have much trouble there.  It is also a long hike for vandels who usualy are quite lazy.  There are other locations available like perhaps at the proposed siding near cockeye curve.  This would be a very safe place for a tool house once we have the freindly neighbors we think we will soon have.
EL

Stewart Rhine replied:

Hall's would be a good place for a WW&F style 11X16 section house - especially if we build the siding.  Once we have more than one handcar one could be stored there.  One handcar should always be kept at Sheepscot.

I am not opposed to seeing a section house at Alna Center or on the TOM siding.  I think it would be useful and look great.   The Top of the Mountain area is remote and would probably be safe but I wouldn't put anything in there that is valuable or can't be easily replaced.

Mike Fox replied:

The only problem I can forsee about putting a handcar in a section house outside of Sheepscot is this. If someone should break in and get the handcar out on the line and no one know about it until it's too late. We don't run fast enough to turn it into splinters but I bet the paint could get scratched if left on the main in a poor spot.
Mike

Wayne Laepple replied:

As inventive a bunch as we seem to be, I'll bet we can (a) come up with a way to secure a handcar so it can't be removed from the building without knowing the secret password, and/or (b) figure out some way to lock the mechanism so that even if it is removed from the section house and put on the track, it won't move!

Mike Fox replied:

Wayne,
I thought of that after I posted. Like BM1455 said, Top of the Mountain would be a good spot for a second section house. Pattern that one after the one that was located by the Iron Bridge in Whitefield. And the one in Sheepscot should resemble an enlarged version of the Head Tide section house. The average person will not notice that it is 3 or 4 feet larger than the original.
Mike

Mike Fox replied:

With the nice photos posted under the Motor Pool topic, I figured it was time for some more ideas on storage of these little for wheelers. Leon has put many countless hours into that car. And it looks great. I would like to see it kept that way. As well as the hand car. Vern and others did a wonderfull job with that. We should be able to have a building to put them in. To protect them from all things, us.
I don't know how many times I would walk through the shop last year and see the handcar being used for a table or a bench. Hopefully not a workbench but stuff was set on it. I figure if we can get it in it's own building, it will look great for a lot longer period. I would hate to see Leons car in the shop with something leaned up against it.
And I'm not saying this is something that needs to be built this year but we should get the ball rolling so maybe this fall we could get started. Get the floor done before frost sets in in good shape and build it over the winter. Thoughts???
Mike

Wayne Laepple replied:

If a replica of the Whitefield section house was constructed, it would provide storage space for the handcar and velocipede, and in the winter, the fire car and possibly the air compressor car could be housed there as well. That would free up space in the shop for the Model T railcar. When the roundhouse is built, the Model T could be kept there. Or a small shed for it could be placed on a radial track off the turntable.

Stewart Rhine replied:

Wayne has a good point.  As most everyone knows the discussion has been towards building a new handcar shed / section house when the water tank is complete.  That means that the new handcar shed could be built this Fall.  It would go just North of and on the same side as the water tank.  There are plans (somewhat rough) for a replica of the Whitefield section house and these will be presented to the Board this year.  If the Board agrees with the plan as proposed, the shed will be built.  The question is when.  Part of the "if" in this project is funding.  Ira has already said he will persue the NRHS Grant if he is appointed by the Board.  There aren't many projects that $5,000 would take from start to finish but the car shed is one.  It will be a big advantage to have the shed to house the handcar and velocipede, and the fire car, air car in the Winter.  As I have said before, you don't store a 5 foot tall car in an 18 foot stall if you can avoid it

Mike Fox replied:

I talked with Zack today and he feels the same way. Whitefield seems to be what he likes. A single door structure for the hand car and Velocopede when they are done. I like the looks of the Head Tide sectionhouse myself and I think it would work good for this pupose but that is my own opinion. Either way, this would be a welcomed addition to our storage options.
Mike

Stewart Rhine replied:

Mike, I like the head Tide building too but the Whitefield shed is a better fit for Sheepscot.   The Head Tide shed would work well at TOM or at the Head Tide end of the line.  I think it will be built too, just not sure where or when.

Mike Fox replied:

Stewart,
The reason I like it is because the of the roof. I like to be able to walk into a building without the rain dripping on your head from the eaves. I believe both buildings are the same size though the door at headtide looks taller. But after looking at both buildings and knowing what is desired, Whitefield will give us more options.
Mike

Stephen Hussar replied:

There is absolutely a great need to have more indoor storage space, especially for the handcar, firecar, and compressor car, but isn't the view looking north getting crowded? Could the current section house be moved to a spot further up the ROW (like TOM)? And this reproduction Whitefield building take its place in the yard? (across from the water tank) Not that this would be all that aesthetically offensive , but I'm just curious what everyone thinks...

Mike Fox replied:

Steve,
The way Zack was talking yesterday, I am under the impression you won't be able to see it from Sheepscot. It will be North of the water tower and I think the water tower will hide it pretty well.
Mike

Wayne Laepple replied:

Having seen a sketch plan of the site, Mike is correct. The new tool house would be out of the line of sight from Sheepscot, set back from the track and hidden from the south behind the base of the water tank. In my opinion, it would be nice to someday relocate the Sheepscot section house across the track to a position just north of the new building.

Joe Fox replied:

In my opinion, I think that the section house should stay where it is, because that is near the location it was originally.

Joe

Stephen Hussar replied:

In my opinion, I think that the section house should stay where it is, because that is near the location it was originally.
Joe

Very good point -- I'm sold!  

Stewart Rhine replied:

Joe has the right idea.  I see this way - the current tool house is our only original WW&F  structure.  It should stay where it is for a number of reasons.  First, it was originally at Sheepscot.  Also, it is safer in the yard than out along the line.

The new handcar shed / section house will fit well into the location just North of the water tank.  As Wayne said, you won't be able to see it from  the yard because of the water tank.  It was common practice to pair buildings on the WW&F.  The original Wiscasset yard had a number of job-related buildings next to each other.  We are recreating the same thing at Sheepscot.  Of course the car shed can be moved at some point in the future if that becomes necesary.

As to comparing the Head Tide and Whitefield section houses.  They were about the same size but Head tide had the short side to the tracks while Whitefield had the long side to the tracks.  The Whitefield structure fits better with the available space next to the water tank.  Mike has a point about getting wet.  Maybe we can have a small tin rain gutter over the door.

Wayne Laepple replied:

While the Head Tide and Whitefield section houses were about the same size, the Whitefield building offers more usable floor space. The Head Tide building had double doors that hinged inward, reducing the floor space available. The sliding door takes up no floor space when opened.

As was mentioned somewhere above, perhaps some day we can build a replica of the Head Tide building and situate it at Halls, Top of the Mountain or at Route 218.

696

Archives (Museum) / Sutters Crossing - Then & Now 2 *PICS*

« on: December 13, 2008, 12:12:19 AM »

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Stephen Hussar wrote:

Sutters Crossing 1998. Photo taken standing on the grade looking north.

And almost the same angle 3 years later in October 2001

Photos: Stewart Rhine

Joe Fox replied:

What a wonderful change. The only way it could get any better, is with #9 under steam, and an antique car.

Joe

Mike Fox replied:

That will come with time.....

James Patten replied:

We've had the antique car there before, meeting #10.

Stewart Rhine replied:

I have shots of number 10 meeting the Model T Depot Hack at Sutter's during the picnic one year.  I also have some photos of the SR&RL rail car heading South through the crossing.  I may send them to Steve at some point.   I used a "survey style" photo because it gives you a better view up the line for a Then & Now comparison.

Joe Fox replied:

Oh. I have seen the photos of #10 going through the crossing with one of Boothbay's model T's waiting for the train to go by. Does anybody know if Boothbay will lend us the model T's again for the Annual Picnic in August of 2007?

Joe

James Patten replied:

I'm sure if we ask nicely they will.  Brian may have his house by the tracks built then so we can stage a "Fanslau's Crossing" meet.

Joe Fox replied:

What do you mean by that James? And where is Brian going to have his house at?

Joe

697

Archives (Museum) / New Roundhouse

« on: December 13, 2008, 12:11:22 AM »

MODERATORS NOTE:
New Roundhouse has been converted from the pre-July 2008 WW&F Discussion Forum.
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Information contained within this post may be superseded by more recent postings and conversations.
MikeW wrote:

What about the possibility of building a roundhouse?  I realize that it may be more effort than a metal building, but it has some advantages too.  First, it would be a building that would be interesting to visitors.  Second, as expansion is needed additional stalls could be added.  Third, it is more compact in that a ladder track is not required.

bperch replied:

To see how well the roundhouse idea fits in, see what has been done in Phillips both as to use of the site and how the building is utilized.

MikeW replied:

I'm very familiar with the "New" Old Stone Fort in Phillips.  It has been a huge improvement for preserving the equipment by getting it out of the weather.  And it looks good too.  BTW, I helped clear the large trees growing up in its foundation and turntable pit many years ago, but was gone to college around the time Al started building it.

I think the utilization would be a bit different than Phillips since SR&RL uses it for a shop and everything, whereas WW&F would primarily use the new building for storage if I am not mistaken.  Most 2ft roundhouses seem to have been wood, but a block building could be built that would blend in well.

MikeW replied:

Here is what I was thinking.  The team track would be a good place for coaling etc.  Of course, nothing I drew is to scale!

Mike Fox replied:

2FTMainaiac and all,
That is exactly what I was thinking of. I was just trying to think of the best way to explain it. The only thing you did different was the run around track.  And maybe it should be designed to look like the one the was in Wiscasset originally. It burned and took #6 and #7 with it. It was a 3 stall single pitch structure with shingled exterior. A picture can be found in Narrow Guage in the Sheepscot Valley, Vol. 1, pg. 54. A good shot of the turntable is on 56. That would look nice in the percival purchase. But this would only work with the idea of extending the current enginehouse North and South to protect the current Rolling stock.
Mike

sgprailfan replied:

A round house for coaches?

James Patten replied:

A three stall engine house is currently plenty for us.  Both mechanical engines can fit in one stall.  Probably #10 can squeeze in with #9 because it's small.  That leaves a stall open for #11!

In Wiscasset, directly across the turntable was the coaling shed.  But it doesn't matter how you squeeze it in, really, it wouldn't really work for us.

Wayne Laepple replied:

At this time, the need is for a structure to house rolling stock, not a place for locomotives. I believe a roundhouse may be in the future, but it's still a long way down the road, after a bunch of other things happen first. And building a roundhouse on the Percival site would require a huge amount of earth moving.

Jason M Lamontagne replied:

There has been talk of a roundhouse at Sheepscot Station for some time.  It would be for active locomotives.

I'm greatly in favor of it for a number of reasons:

1. Remove fire danger from the current shop.
2. Make more working space in the current shop.
3. Provide opportunity for a replica of another original RR building- the Wiscasset round house.  Again, this would be a fire proof building on the inside- steel, thick sheetrock, what ever is needed- but wood sided on the outside.
4.  This is the big one to me- opportunity for a gallows style turntable.

There's already been some talk of a potential location for this building, other than what's been mentioned here, but really that is in a lot of flux.

A little correction on some previous thoughts I'd seen here, furthering the shop extension idea.  Extending the shop as has been discussed would add a total of 40 feet in length to the building, giving us 93 feet.  Recognizing that flat cars, excursion cars, and four-wheel carts of various purposes are all outside storage items, such an extension leaves room for all our equipment and leaves room for the two cars we wanted to build as well.

No matter if the shop is extended or a seperate building is built first, we know we want the current shop as a wood and machine shop, for which there is insufficient room.  This means that at some point in time, no matter what, we will want to extend it and utilize some of the dead outside space both north and south of it.  Given the museum's current skill set and financial resources are far better primed to tackle this project than the seperate building, I'm in favor of extending the shop first.

I'm not deathly against the seperate building idea.  It has good merit.  I just wish the extension idea wasn't so quickly dismissed in this forum, especially when it is popular with many of the volunteers at the RR.  And if we end up with it, I could only imagine it fireproofed on the inside but wood sided all around the outside, as a compromise on this issue.

I look forward to getting together at Sheepscot Station with some of you and some others who can't interact on this forum to look at the actual situation there and developing a solid compromise on the whole subject.  I suspect this will be settled over the course of next year, and that the project may be on tap as following the water tower project- course bathrooms have to fit in there also.

see ya
Jason

MikeW replied:

Here is a clearer sketch.  I downloaded the actual orthophoto from MEGIS so I could use it in my mapping software with the correct scale.  The turntable is 32', and the roundhouse is 40' deep.  I modified it to 3 stalls per Mike Fox's suggestion.  I included an outside track in the area where the roundhouse could be expanded in the future.  I also sketched in the coal and ballast loading area next to the team track and show how it would be accessed over the turntable lead.

- Mike White

MikeW replied:

I forgot to add that my suggestion for the roundhouse is in addition to extending the car shop.  The car shop would come first, the roundhouse would be later when needed.

Jason M Lamontagne replied:

All,

I must say I rather like Mike W.'s idea for the engine house, with the run-around, on the Percival purchase.  This isn't where we were thinking of putting it, but it is a clean solution, compacts things a little less, gives prime location for coaling facilities, but would still be in the public eye with the parking lot behind Clarissa's house.

If we were to extend the shop right now, build the round house in the near term, and still found ourselves lacking on storage, a second track off the run-around to the car storage area could be arranged, I'd think.

see ya
Jason

Joe Fox replied:

If a round house is made for the locomotives, is it possible to have a steam up bay with a stack coming out of the roof, or would that be to much of a fire hazzard? I have a photo of Steamtowns chimeny for the smoke to go through, if any body's interested.

Joe

Ira Schreiber replied:

Joe,
A smokejack, which is a vented pipe through the roof, is used to eliminate smoke in a roundhose/engine house.
You can see them in old photos of the Wiscasset engine house.

Stephen Hussar replied:

Joe, one of the main reasons behind building a roundhouse would be to be able to "fire-up" inside.

Mike Fox replied:

Wayne,
Do they offer a metal building that looks like the Wiscasset Roundhouse? Or could one be designed? Cedar Shingled look and all? After living in Maine all my life, accept for the time I put in for Uncle Sam, I can honestly tell you, I live in a wood house. Have always lived in a wooden houses. In the woods. The chance of a fire consuming a building from the outside is minimal. In 20 years on the local fire department, I have not seen a building that was consumed from a brushfire. I have see brushfires started from house fires though.
As for the Roundhouse, maybe some lawn or gravel drive all the way around to act as a buffer is the way to go. And since the fire danger increases while someone is there, the chances of someone seeing it before it gets too far out of hand are all that much greater. And at the current enginehouse, it would be all but impossible for an external fire to reach the building.
And as for firing up inside a building, other steam railroads do it every day. There are things in 2006 that were not available in 1931. I'm sure that it can be made as fire proof as possible.
Mike

MikeW replied:

A simple solution for external fires is to sheath the building using fiber cement siding (e.g., Hardie Siding).  It comes in a variety of styles, including cedar shingle and clapboard.  It looks excellent (Bowdoin College uses this for all of its "wood" buildings such as the McLellan Building near where the old MEC depot used to be).  It is 100% fire resistant.

James Patten replied:

I have split off the roundhouse discussions into it's own thread.

Jason M Lamontagne replied:

I have to agree with Mike Fox on nearly all counts-

The greatest fire danger is when people are there- firing a locomotive.

We'll never leave an engine in the house with a live fire unattended.

I don't know about the other steam crew members but I have always looked forward to firing up inside- it can be pretty miserable at times firing up outside.

I also agree with a reasonable firebreak around the building, and that wood structures consumed from environmental fires is not very common in Maine- in fact, I've never heard of it.  Not to say it couldn't happen- but I don't think we should live our lives in that level of fear unless it is truly warranted from past experience.

I think a steel framed building on a dirt floor with board and batton or cedar shingle siding would be appropriate.  There was also talk of brick, modeled after an engine house from one of the other Maine Two Footers; this sounds ok too.  I'm personnally not in favor of solutions that involve look-alike siding; I have a believe in offering a genuine experience to our members and visitors, which to me includes things like materials used in building construction (steel frame is a compromise).

I suggest that we respect the risk of fire without living in complete fear of it.  One could argue that we risk a major train wreck every time a wheel turns or explosion every time a boiler is fired.

see ya
jason

Stewart Rhine replied:

Jason, You said it very well.  I think a steel framed, wooden roundhouse would work well for us.  Mike stated that he has never seen a structure fire started by a woods/wild fire.  I have been a volunteer firefighter in Maryland for over 32 years and I have never seen a structure catch fire from the surrounding woods either.  Enough clearing around the structure will better protect it.  A brick roundhouse would be nice but I don't think it would fit into the theme of structures at Sheepscot.  If we get a large grant it could be considered but it would be too expensive otherwise.  I think the  round house should built to resemble the original at Wiscasset and be close to the yard.  Here's a few reasons.  (1) Less expense in feeding power and water to the structure.  (2) Better visibility to visitors.  The sight of an engine working out of the house and being turned on the turntable would be a BIG plus to the visitors experience.  (3) Transfer of parts and equipment from the car, wood or machine shop to the roundhouse would be easier.  (I am not advocating building the roundhouse next to the shop, there must be some space for safety ).  (4) a drive could be built to the back of the building for truck access.  If one of the stalls had a run through track this could come out into the drive area.

John McNamara replied:

I don't know whether this question is appropriate to the round house discussion or the car storage discussion, but the question is "What goes where?" Presently, we have four pieces of motive power (9, 10, 51, 52), two coaches, two flat cars, a box car, and a caboose. There has been talk of a third steam engine, a drop-bottom gondola, and another coach.

Plainly, the expanded engine house will continue to include a machine shop and probably a small kitchen. However, there have also been suggestions that it include a car shop and/or carpenter shop at some point in the future.

It sounds like we are talking about a large round house like the SR&RL "stone fort" or two buildings, a round house and a car storage building. In either case, any plans for a roundhouse should include storage for all of the above, either within the roundhouse or elsewhere.

Stewart Rhine replied:

I think the roundhouse and car house should be two seperate buildings.  The roundhouse would be near or next to the yard while the car house would be built back from the yard, up on the hill as has been discussed.

Joe Fox replied:

John,

The round house would only be for locomtives I believe, so that the present engine house would be for the rolling stock just to help clerify things for you.  As I said, that is what I think because it would go together really good I think.

If a round house is built, I must agree wtih Stewart, that we should have it clearly visible to the public. When I go to a railroad with a turn table, I love to watch it be turned, especially when it is being pushed by hand.

Joe

Ira Schreiber replied:

Basically the roundhouse would be for the motive power and track equipment. The building would be sited for exposure to the public.

The car house/shop would be for storage with the location not generally in the public view.
I believe this is the general concensus.

John McNamara replied:

So far I have only seen diagrams for a car house or a roundhouse. Since there seems to be some consensus for a car house and a roundhouse, could some of the folks that make those nifty diagrams make one for the car house and roundhouse case? Thanks in advance

Wayne Laepple replied:

OK, I'll concede the exterior fire matter. On the other hand, I think we're putting the cart way before the horse to talk about a roundhouse. We need to enlarge the shop at the very least, and we need a carhouse for safe storage of our valuable antique rolling stock.

John McNamara replied:

Yes. I think there is general agreement that shop building extensions north and south are the first order of business. I thought that the general discussion beyond that was what to do after doing the shop building extension.

We started out with a bunch of proposals for various radii of curvature to get into car storage buildings located at various points on the Percival and Boudin lands. From there we got talking about roundhouses. The reason I brought up the "What goes where?" question was that I was concerned that some of the roundhouse proposals seemed to conflict with the aforementioned car storage building proposals.

As long as everyone is talking about both a car storage building and a roundhouse, both of which are substantially later in time than the shop extension project, then I think that we are all whistling the same tune, singing from the same hymnnal, etc.

Mike Fox replied:

I think that talking about both the roundhouse and the car shop ideas gets the ideas going. I am under the impression that the car storage would be the shop expansion. Maybe we would need more storage later and we could construct another structure someplace. But if we have a roundhouse some day, that would free up space in the present and soon to be expanded shop. But that of course is years down the road. Getting as much under cover for preservation is the most urgent.
Mike

MikeW replied:

I think the roundhouse should be for locomotives, and the existing shed be for cars and shop.  Thus, it makes sense to expand the existing building first, then build a roundhouse, then later build the additional car shed when and if needed.  This will also get the engines out into a facility that is designed for their storage and use (see the whole smoke jack discussion!).

The way I see it, if you build the second car shed before a roundhouse, you miss an opportunity to add a prototypical building to the site in the nearer term, perhaps even for the very long term.

BTW, this is an excellent discussion.  I am currently or formerly involved in other groups, and these never have such healthy debate.

fjknight replied:

So far I have only seen diagrams for a car house or a roundhouse. Since there seems to be some consensus for a car house and a roundhouse, could some of the folks that make those nifty diagrams make one for the car house and roundhouse case? Thanks in advance /i]

John,

That is why I plan on taking a trip to the museum on Friday to do some more accurate measurements. I tried to do a CAD drawing of a roundhouse along with a car storage building and I was having a hard time making everything fit. I want to get an accurate drawing of a turnout and the corner locations of the properties so I can say with some confidence that both buildings will fit along with reasonable curves and switches. Assuming I get the needed dimensions on Friday I should be able to produce a drawing or two buy Sunday at the latest. Right now my thoughts are to put a roundhouse on Percival and the car storage on Boudin.

Frank Knight

Ira Schreiber replied:

Mike Fox has hit the nail on the head. His summary is exactly the way I see it.
This is a "what if" discussion.....
The expansion of the present building is what I mentioned in an earlier post as the first project AFTER we determine everything is legal.
It could be substantially built in 2007, if all the pieces fall in place.

Bill Sample replied:

Regarding the discussion of fire dangers with wooden structures, perhaps someone on this list is familiar with various ways of treating wood with some sort of fire retardant coating.  If there is a way this could be done in a reasonable manner, then shouldn't Jason's plan of historically accurate replication should be the way to go?

Something like 25 years ago, the group I am active with (RMNE, then located at the Valley RR) rebuilt a flagstop station and coated the interior with surplus fire resistant paint, which was being disposed of by a power plant where a one of our members (RMNE and now also WW&F) worked.  I assume that something like that would still be available.

Joe Fox replied:

If it is, then that should really be looked into so that the building, like Bill said, could be replicated.

Joe

Josh Botting replied:

In addition, it would be nice to seperate the workshops from car/engine storage.  Since based on RR history lessons fires seem to be quite common, it would be nice to have assets seperated..... meaning that the one large building could result in one large fire, and loosing everything.

fjknight replied:

Finally finished the drawing showing the proposed roundhouse on Percival while retaining access to car storage on Boudin. This drawing also reflects some fine tuning of the corners based on measurements taken on the property with a little help from James and Zack. Thanks Guys!

I still had to move the switch to get to car storage on Boudin south of the current top of the yard switch. Even though it uses a 20 degree curve I did manage to add easements.

Frank Knight

Mike Fox replied:

Looks good Frank. Nice location for the car storage. Out of the way and perhaps almost out of sight.
Mike

Mike Fox replied:

On another thread we started disussing this and I figured it would be better to return the roundhouse to it's thread. Please remember when viewing, everything is approximate. The property lines are not exact and neither are any of the building or track locations. Nothing is to scale and is for visual aid purposes only. If the buildings go over a property line, that does not mean that is where the building will go or where the property line actually is. Once we get an idea of what everyone likes, then maybe Frank can draw one up that is more to scale and include proper property lines instead of estimating them.
Mike.

fjknight replied:

Mike,

Even without doing a formal drawing I can see that none of the proposed turntable locations will fit inside the property lines. If somebody can come up with a plan that looks like it will fit then I will put it in 3rd PlanIt to check the curves and turnouts.

Frank

James Patten replied:

The west boundary of the museum with the Percival houselot is approx. 20 feet off of the southwest corner of the shop building.  There is no way you will fit a turntable within our property line.

Mike Fox replied:

So our current volunteer parking is on Clarrissa's land then? That's what I was going by. Maybe things will have to go north like they were before, on the Percival purchase.
Mike

Mike Fox replied:

Now staying within the property lines, I have come up with this. But if the existing shop building is expanded, there might not be a need for the car barn next to the turntable. Again, just a suggestion. And everything is approximate.
Mike

fjknight replied:

Mike,

Looks like it might really work. I'll put it in 3rd PlanIt first chance I get.

Frank

Mike Fox replied:

Don't hurry Frank. I just did that to see what people thought. But it would be nice to know if it will work.
Mike

fjknight replied:

Mike,

Here it is. I could not fit the storage building onto the Percival Purchase so I slid it over to the Boudin Property. Looks like the roundhouse would fit easily in that area.

Frank

gordon cook replied:

If I may, I would put on the list of 'wants' for the new roundhouse that it be as close to the shop as is reasonable. There's almost nothing more aggravating and time consuming than having to walk a few hundred feet to retrieve a wrench or use a tool when you're in the middle of trying to fix something.
Having the roundhouse closer to the shop will reduce the wasted time before fireup and at other times during the operating season.

Stephen Hussar replied:

Excellent point, Gordon. I suppose I'm guilty of being too lazy to go back and read all the old posts on this topic, but was there ever any discussion of having a machine shop attached to the roundhouse? That would seem to make sense. And I love the idea of a run-through track with access out the back door to Cross Rd (I believe Stewart, you posted something to that effect).

And lastly a question for the engineers and machinists out there: in a perfect world how much space would you ideally like to have for a machine shop...remember how spacious the shop seemed when new?

Mike Fox replied:

I think the only way to get it close is to build it next to the shop or facing East like Stewart likes in the top drawing. But there is not enough room. I redid the property lines but they are not correct. I figured the museum owned where the volunteer parking is and I guess we don't. So without purchasing more land, I don't think it can be put in that area. That is why I went onto the percival purchase with it. Something we already own. But this is way down the road and who knows what the museum will own then.
Mike

Or this

Glenn Christensen replied:

Hi Guys,

Might I suggest that when we plan any new RR equipment-related facility, that we leave room for a visitor's gallery.  This would be consistent with our goal to enrich the visitor experience through education and direct volunteer contact.

In my experience, few museums can do this.  It would further help differentiate us from others.  Such contact could also facilitate volunteer recruitment.

Sincerely,
Glenn

Mike Fox replied:

I was under the impression that a visitors gallery is planned for a yet undisclosed location somewhere near the museum. Am I mistaken?
Mike

Stephen Hussar replied:

I may be wrong but I think by "visitor's gallery" Glenn means a dedicated place inside the enginehouse or restoration shop where visitors can view get up close and personal without being in danger or being in the way(?)
The balcony in the roundhouse at Steamtown comes to mind.


Photo:Chuck Harrington

Glenn Christensen replied:

Steve is correct as to my meaning.  Visitors should be provided with a way of safety viewing the restoration work in progress.  The simplest way to provide for this would be to provide extra room along the back and sides of the facility to allow visitors to circulate without getting in the way of the restoration crews.

Sincerely,
Glenn

John McNamara replied:

People enjoy being able to go into our engine house partially because almost every other organization keeps visitors out. However, since enginehouses are dangerous places, confining visitors to a viewing area would be a very good idea.
There is a conflict of interest, however, as we are trying to restore the railroad as it was and let people see that, while simultaneously trying to increase visitor safety. With those somewhat conflicting goals in mind, we probably should consider something a bit less formal than Steamtown's balcony. How about reserving a 10-foot wide walking area at the "fat end" of the building? The walkway would have an entrance/exit door at each end, and be separated from the work area by a low railing intended to deter vistors from entering the work area and deter workers from storing "stuff" in the walkway area.

Stephen Hussar replied:

...low railings intended to deter vistors from entering the work area...

I'm with you John, the Steamtown picture was just a good way to clearly illustrate the "gallery" idea. A cordoned-off walkway sounds nice, just as long as the railings are removable for photo ops 

Joe Fox replied:

Do you think, the future roundhouse might be able to have that type of system without a lot of work, and without taking up John's ten feet? I think that three or four feet would be wide enough. When and if a roundhouse is ever built, the museum should have a tour guide to give the visitors a guided tour through the restricted area. By restricted area, I mean where the restoration, and steam/diesel crews at work.

Joe

Stewart Rhine replied:

Gordon and Steve H. - Hey, I don't always go back and read all the pages on a thread either.  Some of these things are getting looooong.   Steve, sounds like you did see my post back on page 2 regarding placement of the roundhouse.  I think it should be just northeast of the existing shop, about 125-150 feet.  Note that this would be in the future as we would have to purchase additional land.  To repeat a few of the best reasons: (1) less cost in running power and water to the structure (2) easier transfer of tools and equipment from shop to the roundhouse (3) location of a driveway feeding the back and side for truck access.

Joe has a good idea of roping off a 4 foot wide visitor area along the back (wide) side of the roundhouse.  Visitors can enter through the side small  door or the back open stall door.  There should be a guide with them most of the time.  To repeat - I favor having one stall as a run through with 2-3 sticks of track out the back, covered to the railhead for switching, service or deliveries.

Mike Fox replied:

Well here is another thought on the visitors gallery. How about a continuous walkway through the shop and continuing through an eventual roundhouse. Someplace safe enough for self guided tours and also very handicap accessible (level side to side with easy inclines).Then maybe it could finish with a walkway through the yard and ending back at the starting point
Mike

Stewart Rhine replied:

Mikes walkway idea is good in that visitors can see the inside of the car shop or machine shop.  The floor inside bays 1-3 of the car shop should be finished for easier walking and movement of equipment.  (A finished floor would be safer and allow for the use of rolling jacks).  Walkway areas should be kept clear of tools and equipment which would be safer for everybody.  The walkways could be marked to guide visitors through.

This has been posted before but the East Broad Top puts chains across the open roundhouse doors so visitors can look inside.  We can easily do this on the carshop doors.  I know it wouldn't look as good but it would help on days when there aren't enough volunteers to tour visitors.

Bill Sample replied:

An additional benefit to Mike Fox's handicap access idea is that this also makes it easier to move our "stuff" around with a hand truck or cart.
I also agree with Stewart's proposal to have a run-through track and rail height graded area behind one of the roundhouse stalls.  To that, if possible, I'd like to suggest a permanent loading ramp at the end of the run-through track so that equipment transfers could be easily made.

Mike Fox replied:

An unloading ramp might not be in the best interest there because of the limitations of it. I mean in that area, the ramp would have to be located near the buildings to give the truck driver enough room to navigate to it. So the track would be short. A track that is ground level and ballasted to the top of the rail head would be better because the truck could drive over it or unload any where on it. And while not needed for loading/unloading, it could be a sort of display track. Just my 2 cents.
Mike

Wayne Laepple replied:

Depending on what kind of rig is hauling a particular piece of rolling stock, a track filled to the railhead may or may not be better than a ramp. If the truck is a roll back, it wouldn't matter whether the track is filled in or not. But if its a detachable gooseneck trailer, filled track is a necessity. If its a regular lowboy or a drop deck, a ramp would be necessary.

Do you guys know something the rest of us don't? Are we having visiting equipment or is some of our equipment going somewhere for a visit?

Joe Fox replied:

I think Wayne, that this was mentioned for when the museum has more equipment and things delivered. That is what I think, but I don't know how true it is. Talk to you guys later.

Joe
_________________
“We are extremely proud of our collection of historical railroad equipment, which is the largest of any U. S. railroad, especially our steam locomotives.”
-Steve Lee-

Joe

James Patten replied:

It was intended that Track 7 become the delivery track once the area in front of Bay 3 is filled in.  If during our deliberations we can find another, better place to put it that might be nice.

Stephen Hussar replied:

Mention has been made of the idea that a roundhouse would make firing up the locomotives indoors possible. Would a "basic" roundhouse environment also make it possible to keep fires burning through the night, in the event the need ever arose? (would additional planning be required for the building to be used in this way...)  I'm thinking perhaps some future special operating schedule that required the engines to be run late into the night and again at the crack of dawn. And for the purposes of this discussion let us temporarily set aside the obvious difficulties of making this happen with an all-volunteer steam crew...

gordon cook replied:

My guess would be that  a proper smoke jack would allow the engine to have its fire banked on a Saturday night instead of dumped, and would reduce the fire up time and also the thermal stress on a Sunday morning. This was the traditional situation on a working rr, but you need someone to maintain water levels all night long so if you're volunteering to be the hostler on Saturday night by all means!
In reality, the next day temperature of the boiler water is still pretty high, and the fireup is pretty quick, and is probably not worth the risks of maintaining a banked fire. Perhaps some of our members with more experience  than I do would care to  comment.

James Patten replied:

Early on when we had steam, and I can't recall if it was Monson #3 or our #10, we tried banking the fire for the night.  Whoever it was that stayed reported that it kept popping off rather frequently, so there was a need to keep feeding water into it.  I don't think that person got much sleep that night.

pockets replied:

This is why there was a job/position, in most roundhouses, called "Ashcat". It was his job to tend the banked fires and the locomotives. Sleeping was not one of his duties.

I have observed people, who didn't know how, babysit C&O 614 overnight. It can be quite amusing.

Greg B.

Stewart Rhine replied:

James,  Your memory is correct.  Monson 3 was kept hot overnight during the 1998 annual picnic because we ran Friday night trains followed by early Saturday morning trains.  One of the fellows from MNG stayed with engine 3 all night.  As you said, the engine kept popping off which required water to be added a number of times.  That was the only time we had a night hostler.  The biggest problem I see with keeping steam pressure on an engine is the possibility of night crawlers.  I know we trig, set brakes and center the bar but I have heard of engines that creep even with brakes on.

Gordon has a good point that a hot boiler will stay hot overnight so the next morning's fire up is faster.  Plus, a live fire overnight is a waste of coal.  I will repeat that I think we should have the pull-down smoke jacks in the new roundhouse mostly because it gives us the ability to fire up inside.

dwight winkley replied:

During my time in the U. S. Army  My main job was Steam Locomotive Hostler at Fort Eustis, VA.. My main job was to keep the fires burning. This was a five min. job every two hours. Add a little coal and water. The fun part was moving the loco's from one track to another in the yard. One track had ash pit. and coal. Some times I would have to push the full hopper car up the ramp so it could be unloaded. The water supply was on another track. With up to four loco's under steam it was some interesting swithing. Use to set the brakes and let the engine bark. Opps!
base Commanding General complained about trains running at night. Other jobs was oil and grease job. Fire cleaning and loco and tender cleaning. Take two parts jounial oil, one part deisel fuel and wipe down the loco/tender with wet jounial box packing. Everything  "shined" untill the fire was cleaned and the ash pan dumped. Fly ash everywhere. so you did the job again. Use to hate steam heat in the coaches all night.
You tender the fires every half hour. I swithed by myself. Had special training in order to remove blue flags and move equipment around. Than put the blue flag back on the equipment.....Before anyone says something about the blue flag.... I was told more than once. "This is the ARMY"
I could go on forever,
dwight

Joe Fox replied:

I didn't know you did all that stuff Dwight. That is very interesting. Why did the W, W, & F keep the engines fired up all night originally if they only ran trains during the day, and it only takes two hours to fire the engine up when it is cold?

Joe

Stephen Hussar replied:

Why did the W, W, & F keep the engines fired up all night originally if they only ran trains during the day Joe

Joe, that's an interesting question...
Dwight, great posting -- what sorts of locomotives were you working with back then?

James Patten replied:

Most locomotives the WW&F ran were the size of #9, not the size of #10.  While it may take only a couple hours to start up a warm boiler in the morning for #10, it won't surprise me if #9 takes another hour at least.  Remember #10 is around 12 tons and #9 is around 18 (or 50% more engine).

In the later years with the first morning train from Albion leaving at 5:30 AM, the fireman would have had to show up at midnight in order to have the engine ready to go in time to switch the yard for departure (assuming it wasn't done the night before).  Therefore having a hostler only makes sense, so that the engine crew can show up around 4:30, do everything they need to do to get the engine ready, and do some switching before departure.

Wayne Laepple replied:

First of all, let us remember what happened to the original WW&F roundhouse while a hot engine was inside. The amount of time required to fire up in the morning, especially if the engine is still warm from the day before, is relatively short, and it may not be worth the risk to keep an engine with a fire on its grates inside overnight.

Now, to reduce fire up time, if the engine is put away still hot and the fire permitted to slowly die out, it is quite likely that some hot coals will remain overnight. Especially if the smokestack is capped, lack of draft will also reduce thermal stress on the firebox. And if the engine is indoors, that will also retain heat.

However, since the pool of qualified engine service personnel is limited, keeping an engine under steam overnight may not be practical.

Dave Buczkowski replied:

It's becoming clear to me why the railroads switched to diesel engines... You just turn the key, wait a few minutes and go. Do more with less. But what's the fun in that!
Dave

Ira Schreiber replied:

Back in the late sixties, when I was in my steam mode, we had three  4-4-0's, two foot gauge. Since these operated until about 9 p.m. and went out again around 9 a.m., we kept them hot overnight.
The proceedure was to fill the boiler with water, build a solid fire, open the cylinder cocks, center the Johnson bar, set the park brake and trig the drivers.
All three engines had different steaming personalities. One would spend the night quietly steaming, one constantly would pop off, causing much consernation among the locals sleeping, and one would try to slip away during the night, trigs not withstanding.
Our night hostler was good at tending the locos and soon figured what to do with each engine during the night.
One: do nothing
Two: let the fire die
Three: make sure it did not wander
I agree, turning the key is much easier.
Ira

Joe Fox replied:

I forgot that the original railroad had some trains that left early in the mornings. Talk to you guys later.

Stewart Rhine replied:

Most steam era railroads had hostlers who kept the engines hot.  They stayed with the locomotives all night and kept them filled with water and coal.  Their job was to have the engines ready for the crews of the first passenger train or road freight.  Tending the yard goat was another chore for the hostler when the roundhouse was in or near a large yard.  The yard/switch crew would sign in and get their locomotive from the hostler.

dwight winkley replied:

US Army loco's

Most of the time I had 2-8-0's. Now and than, a 0-6-0 was put in service.

Have a photo I can post when I find it.

dwight

Joe Fox replied:

That would be great to see Dwight. I look foward to you posting it when you can find it.
_________________
“We are extremely proud of our collection of historical railroad equipment, which is the largest of any U. S. railroad, especially our steam locomotives.”
-Steve Lee-

Joe

Stewart Rhine replied:

Dwight, Did you have a 2-8-0 that had the rare Franklin (rotart cam) poppet valve system?  It think it was numbered 611 back then.  It ran on the Maryland & Penna. RR for testing during the Korean War 1950-51

ETSRRCo replied:

Back in the late sixties, when I was in my steam mode, we had three  4-4-0's, two foot gauge. Since these operated until about 9 p.m. and went out again around 9 a.m., we kept them hot overnight.
The proceedure was to fill the boiler with water, build a solid fire, open the cylinder cocks, center the Johnson bar, set the park brake and trig the drivers.
All three engines had different steaming personalities. One would spend the night quietly steaming, one constantly would pop off, causing much consernation among the locals sleeping, and one would try to slip away during the night, trigs not withstanding.
Our night hostler was good at tending the locos and soon figured what to do with each engine during the night.
One: do nothing
Two: let the fire die
Three: make sure it did not wander
I agree, turning the key is much easier.
Ira

Ira where did you work with these locomotives? Joe most railroads as others have stated "banked" their locomotives overnight. I am a fireman at the New Hope & Ivyland Railroad in Pa. We bank the 40 off every night that she is scheduled to run the next day. rule of thumb is just about bottle it up then throw 40-50 scoops of coal in a pile on the fire and just let her simmer for the night. If its done right the next days crew will come in with at least 100 pounds on the clock and should only take and hour and a half to two hours to get her ready. You just break up the bank and spread it out in the firebox nice and thin. Throw a road fire in her and watch the clock rise!! If done wrong....well lets not get into that lol. Makes my job A LOT harder in the morning and at 6 AM that's the last thing I need.
_________________
Eric Bolton
East Tigard & Southern Railroad Co 1889-1958

Joe Fox replied:

I know what you mean. So you guys don't have a hostler watching the boiler after you leave to make sure that the water level doesn't drop to low?
_________________
“We are extremely proud of our collection of historical railroad equipment, which is the largest of any U. S. railroad, especially our steam locomotives.”
-Steve Lee-

Joe

dwight winkley replied:

Yes, 611 was at Fort Eustis.

The differant year built loco's were interesting. The loco's from WW11
had air opened fire doors. power reverse gear.  The Korean war loco's were built with a hand opening fire door and a manual Johnson Bar like #9 &10.

One loco had a screw reverse gear (may have been on 611) The crews hated it. Took a long time and a lot of hand wheel turning to go from forward to reverse like when coupling up.

dwight

ETSRRCo replied:

I know what you mean. So you guys don't have a hostler watching the boiler after you leave to make sure that the water level doesn't drop to low?

No. The locomotive usually only sites for eight hours unattended. We literally fill the boiler till it almost cant fit anymore water. That takes some times as you can only drop the pressure 10 pounds at a time. Over the eight hours the locomotive might pop off but it always has a full glass in the morning. Usually the fire has lost most of its intensity during those eight hours and can not produce steam. Once you break the bank and the green coal lights off it doesn't take much to bring up the pressure.
_________________
Eric Bolton
East Tigard & Southern Railroad Co 1889-1958

Joe Fox replied:

Thanks for the info Eric. I am glad that 2 foot gauge locomotives don't take as long as a standard gauge engine. The stacks in the round house, as others have said, could be used to fire up the engine first thing in the morning. This would come in handy in bad weather, and the wood could be kept in the engine house to start the fire, beside the locomotive. However, this would have to be done the week before, and this would or could ensure that we have somewhat dry firewood to fire up the engine with.

Joe

Bruce Wilson replied:

The old engine house at Edaville was constructed of corrugated sheet metal over light wooden framing. The long structure held four steam locomotives (Monson 3 & 4, Bridgton 7 & 8 ) and usually one of the ex-Whitinsville G.E. diesels. The building spanned a single track with engine house doors at each end and a small lube shack on one side. A supply of fire wood (pine bark and slabs) was kept inside for firing up. As soon as the steam engine(s) were lit off, the diesel would be used to haul the locomotives(s) out doors for steaming up.

To the best of my recollection, there were no smoke jacks built into the roof of the Edaville engine house. Ventilation was minimal, unless both sets of doors were opened. Even with the doors opened, visibility was poor inside the building and inside the cabs of the steam engines.

After operations, the engine(s) were put away warm and firing up the next day went quickly even in cold weather. A propane salamander style heater was used inside the building, although there was no insulation that I recall.

Ira Schreiber replied:

First of all, let me correct my previous error. I meant "bank"
a solid fire, not "build", although you do build a bank.
The operation was at the Nebraska and Iowa State Fairs.
Each had 1 1/2 to 2 miles of permanent track and the three 24" Crowns and 12 coaches were trucked back and forth. Great fun. I started as an engineer ( why not start at the top?) and eventually was the General Manager and everything else.

Stewart Rhine replied:

Along with the plan of firing up locomotives inside the roundhouse is the need for dry fuel.  We should consider having a small woodshed near the roundhouse or a woodbin inside the roundhouse.  It wouldn't have to hold much more than enough to get engines 9 or 10 hot enough to add coal.  Wood could be kept in the tender but I think the steam crew would rather have a good load of coal in there.

Joe Fox replied:

How about a place to keep some coal for the engines that is under cover and out of the weather. Something other than the tarps. While we are talking about coal, when are we getting more, because we only have a little bit left. I am guessing maybe enough for a month at the most. Talk to you guys later.

Joe

Mike Fox replied:

I believe coal storage is in the long range plan. In one form or another. Dry storage similar to the covered coal shed of the B&SR with a bucket on an arm would be great. Perhaps the WW&F had something similar but I forget.
Mike

Bill Sample replied:

Has any consideration been given to "house steam" being available?  Think this was used to keep locomotives somewhat warm by some of the "broad gauge" - I don't know if it was used on the two-footers, maybe it was in Phillips.  Maybe a household boiler could do the job for our locomotives if the idea make sense to the mechanical department.

Joe Fox replied:

Do you mean house steam, like hooking a mounted boiler up to the engine boiler, so that the hot water is in the boiler?

Joe

Mike Fox replied:

Bill, I was thinking the same thing but had declined to say anything. But since you brought it up, I was thinking of a boiler, or just taping into the one in the machine shop, and hook it to the loco using quick disconnect hoses like what is used on the diesel in the winter with the heater. Of course some kind of circulator would need to be hooked on the line and the Machine shop Boiler would probably have to run constantly to keep the loco boiler warm. Just my thought.
Mike

Bill Sample replied:

Joe, that's exactly what I meant.
Mike, I completely forgot about the heating boiler in the shop - it might work if the roundhouse is right next door to the shop.  I was thinking some way of slowly bringing the boiler temperature up to 140 or so degrees so that the strain on the metal is reduced when the fire is started up, if Jason & Co. think it is worth the trouble.  The locomotive could be "charged up" with heat several hours ahead of fire time, maybe this could even be on a timer if everything is set up in advance.  I'm just interested in seeing the life of the boilers be extended as long as possible.
The RMNE has a couple of diesels that have been equipped with standby heating systems to keep the cooling system warm during the coldest months, which consist mainly of fairly small household boilers and a couple of circulating pumps.  The installation and operation of these is fairly cheap, and it should be even less expensive at the WW&F, knowing the talents for scrounging that exist there!

Wayne Laepple replied:

When I spent a few days two summers ago helping out at the NC Railroad museum at Spencer, I assisted in firing up Shay no. 1925. Here's how we did it. On Friday afternoon, we laid a small fire in the firebox and got it going. Then we covered the whole thing over with green coal. We oiled and greased around the engine for an hour or so, then checked the fire again. The next morning, when we arrived at 6 a.m., the engine was nice and warm, although the fire had died away to almost nothing. We raked out the bank and spread it around on the grates, threw in some wood and a can of diesel fuel, followed by a fusee. As the wood burned, we slowly added coal. At about 8, we went down the street for breakfast while things heated up. In less than 2 hours, we had enough steam to start the blower, and we had no trouble raising steam in plenty of time to move the engine over to the coal ramp.

Joe Fox replied:

Was that a standard gauge engine, and how much boiler pressure did you have, when you got there in the morning? Talk to you guys later.

Joe

Wayne Laepple replied:

Standard gauge 70-ton three-truck Shay, built 1925 for the Graham County RR in North Carolina. No pressure on the boiler when we arrived, just everything nicely heated up to about 150 or 170 degrees.

Joe Fox replied:

Oh. I am surprised that you guys were able to build up pressure that quick. I remember at railcamp, they said the slower you raise the boiler temp. and pressure then the longer your boiler will last.

Joe

Wayne Laepple replied:

That's the point of heating the engine up without building pressure. All the expansion that affects sheets and staybolts takes place without pressure, so then all that's necessary is to boil water.

Jason M Lamontagne replied:

I can't believe this worked (being able to post I mean)

I like Wayne's method- a nice gentle start.  When I have time, I pull the engine out Friday evening and light a small wood fire, and leave it for a couple hours.  When it burns out, we push it in, and the next morning, we have a warmer boiler to start with.  We never get any steam Friday doing this, on purpose.  Just a warm up cycle.

No offense intended to the idea of hooking to the shop boiler idea, but this is problematic, and a bit modern in my opinion.  The shop boiler water is mixed with a special antifreeze, which would do well at promoting foaming in a power boiler.  Call me old fashioned, I think I prefer a good old fashioned small wood fire to quick connecting to a modern boiler anyway...

see ya
jason

Ira Schreiber replied:

Back to the topic at hand.........
A "soft start" on any pressure vessel is desired to minimize stress, as everyone has noted.
That said, standby boiler heat is not only not necessary but really not desired. A small fire and build from there, sloooowly.
JML, I totally agree.
Ira

Josh Botting replied:

Even if we ran strait water through the boiler, it would be full of stuff over time, heating boiler stuff is bad stuff, not good to cycle it.

If we did slow heat the boiler over night, we would need a secure place to lock the engine down, so someone didn't take it for a ride, as happened in the mid west with a diesel.

Mike Fox replied:

Thanks Jason and Josh, I knew there was something I was overlooking with my thought. And I don't think the crew minds waiting for the steam pressure to build. They seem to find enough to do with caring for the engine during the steam up. No need to rush with things of that age anyway. Got to make it last.
Mike

Wayne Laepple replied:

No one's going for a joyride with a steam engine that's on a warm-up fire. No pressure is ever raised, and without pressure, the engine's not moving.

Joe Fox replied:

That's the beauty of steam, if you don't know how to operate it properly, one of two things is going to happen, the boiler will either run out of steam, and the engine will stop, or a boiler explosion.

Joe

James Patten replied:

I wouldn't call a boiler explosion a beautiful thing....

Joe Fox replied:

I didn't meen it like that, I just worded it wrong.
_________________
“We are extremely proud of our collection of historical railroad equipment, which is the largest of any U. S. railroad, especially our steam locomotives.”
-Steve Lee-

Joe

BSRMBrake replied:

There are several advantageous qualities to banking the fire and several disadvantages.  One of the goals of banking the fire over night is to reduce the expansion/contraction of the boiler caused by temperature changes in the boiler and firebox barrel.  Carefully banking the fire ensures that cold air spaces will not build up in the firebox leading to uneven expansion and contraction of the firebox.  Another is leaving you with enough pressure in the morning (not full operating pressure, mind you) to allow you to operate the blower and raise steam faster by increasing draft.  Usually it is accomplished by banking the fire with a few inches of coal throughout or building up a thicker section which can be spread in the morning and capping the stack.  It is my understanding that hoslers were used most often when locomotives were maintained throughout the night at operating pressure.  This is so that at any point during the night, when a locomotive was required for an assignment, it would be ready to go.

Mike Fox replied:

I hope I speak for more than myself when I say I am against any banking of a fire in a steam engine to be left overnight with no watchman. Our organization has too many valuable things that could be lost if a problem were to arise overnight and no one was there to catch it.
Mike

Ira Schreiber replied:

Mike,
I totally agree with you and hope EVERYONE reads your post.
NO banking or any live fires overnight on the WW&F.
It is just a disaster waiting to happen.
Ira

John McNamara replied:

But the disaster would be in keeping with our efforts to recreate the original railway 

Ira Schreiber replied:

Let's go to Rome and recreate Nero's effort. If you do not want to travel overseas, we can always get a cow and go to Chicago!
I am at a loss, however, on how to go to San Francisco and start an earthquake.
'nuff said?
Ira

James Patten replied:

Let's not and post on the internet that we did.  Then we collect from the sympathy donations that come our way, and probably go to jail for fraud.

James Patten replied:

From Jason:

- I don't think we should be banning keeping a banked fire in locomotives overnight, as long as there is a qualified steam fireman or higher responsible for it all night.  Further, I think there's no problem with this inside of the roundhouse, provided it is built for it with proper smoke jack, etc.

Mike Fox replied:

That's all I was saying. As long as there is somebody there. We have said before that there has been great improvements in fire protection/detection/prevention since the time when the original WW&F Roundhouse burnt.
Mike

Stephen Hussar replied:

Call me crazy, but tending to a couple of simmering locomotives overnight in a roundhouse is something I'd like to experience someday...

Wayne Laepple replied:

Night hostling is my all-time favorite steam engine experience. Some 37 years ago, I was a volunteer with an occasional main line steam operator in eastern Pennsylvania, and after a couple of stressful main line trips, I decided to volunteer to hostle the engine. I'd head for the roundhouse about 10 p.m. the night before the trip and build a nice wood fire to warm things up. Then I'd add some coal, and while waiting for pressure to run the blower, I'd wipe the engine down, fill the lubricators and grease the rods. Then I'd relax and commune with the engine for a while.

Later in the night (or maybe I should say very early in the morning) after steam was raised, I'd move the engine out onto the turntable, spin it around, and back out onto the outbound lead track. As the first gray light of dawn was breaking, I'd run the engine up and down the lead several times to make sure the lubricator was feeding correctly and the grease was getting to the rod bearings. Sometimes there was time for a bit of coal scoop cooking -- bacon and eggs done to perfection. Then I'd just settle down in the fireman's seat and wait for the crew to arrive. When they showed up, I'd head for home and my nice warm bed.

Meanwhile, my fellow volunteers were squabbling about who would fi

698

Archives (Museum) / Sheepscot Landscaping

« on: December 13, 2008, 12:08:26 AM »

MODERATORS NOTE:
Sheepscot Landscaping has been converted from the pre-July 2008 WW&F Discussion Forum.
Some formatting may have been removed or modified from the original postings that appear quoted in this topic.
Information contained within this post may be superseded by more recent postings and conversations.
James Patten wrote:

OK, time to start a thread on landscaping in and around Sheepscot.

Once stone starts to get stored up at Alna Center (which probably won't happen until fall 2007 unless the prep work is done in December and things settle really well this winter), only then can we really get down to business with pretty-fying the area.

With stone gone, the parking lot no longer needs to be an ankle's worst nightmare.  With a parking lot on the Boudin lot, we probably no longer need to have parking at all directly in front of Sheepscot, except perhaps for a couple of handicap spots.

The lot to the west of the shop should be kept for parking, of course, and it is intended (someday) to get some gravel in there to make it proper.

So should we put in a few shrubbery and a lawn with some walking paths along the front?  Or should we do something .... else?

Wayne Laepple replied:

As I mentioned previously in an earlier post, I think some landscaping of the area between the south wall of the shop and Cross Road would be very attractive. Nothing fancy, just some lawn and perhaps a few bushes. A bulb-in off Cross Road for buses and handicap access would also be very nice.

Stephen Hussar replied:

Not sure if this falls under the "pretty-fying" heading, but is there a plan to someday cover the enginehouse/machine shop with board & batten? (thought I read that somewhere...)

Mike Fox replied:

James,
I think the landscaping can be done but maybe should have Eric B. draw up something so we could get an Idea what things would look like when they are done. Or atleast plan it out if you would like shrubs. Grass is a no brainer on what that would look like. A nice green strip of grass would look nice if you can keep everyone from walking on it. Perhaps some posts like I suggested for the parking area would work good there too.
Mike

Stewart Rhine replied:

Landscaping in front of the engine house is a good idea for the future but I think we should keep it all gravel for the next few years.  It's too important of an area to loose to lawn.  Trucks, like the green house man and UPS come in every week.  True, a bulb drive would take care of this but we should still be able to back a truck up to every bay.  If the whole area was leveled off, (remove the loading dock and extend bay 3's track, finish track 7, and have the green house moved) it would look alot better.  Once this is done, if we find we are using the area less then seed and plant it.

I'd also like to see the West lot extended a little so a truck can back right to the back shop door.  We would have to put a crossing on track 7 by the corner of the building.

Stewart

Joe Fox replied:

I think that all of those things would look great. However, if passenger parking was to move west of the Percival's lot, then I think that it would turn away a lot of passengers.

Joe

James Patten replied:

Having people parking on the Boudin lot is a much less hardship than some places have you park.  For instance, it's much closer than parking in some Walmart parking lots.  I'm sure it's also much closer than some places in Strasburg RR's parking lot as well.

Those that have visited before will be thrilled at having actual parking, rather than parking on the side of the street.  Those that haven't may get slightly confused initially, especially if Clarissa's privately owned house is in between them and the museum, but good signage should alleviate that.

Wayne Laepple replied:

That's an interesting analogy, James. Further than a MalWart parking lot indeed! All that's necessary is a few signs directing visitors to the Boudin parking lot and then to a little path and walkway along the road. Save the Percival lot for handicap and buses.

Joe Fox replied:

James,
I now understand what your getting at. We can have a tour guide meet the passengers in the parking lot, where those that want to have, or start a yard tour can, and walk through the yard with a tour guide. Personally, I think it would be great if all passengers were made to have a tour guide, or someone who works at the museum guide them through the yard, so that they don't get hurt or anything like that. However, on some days that is impossible to do, and that is ok to. It would only be needed on busy days. What do you think of that idea? I think it could be arranged, I know some tourist railroads won't let you walk through the yard or shops without a tour guide.

Joe

James Patten replied:

I don't think we should really let people walk through the shops or yard without someone official along either.  After all someone could get cut, or fall, or something else if they aren't careful, and a guide with them this is less likely to happen.  Someone unattended could gum up the works of a piece of machinery or take something, and with a guide there this is also less likely to happen.

Allan Fisher replied:

Many Sundays during the Summer, we have two or three on the train crew and one person at the Gift Shop and over 100 people visiting including long time members who are at Sheepscot for the first time in many years. . Does that mean we are closed - but we'll sell you a train ride?

Dave Buczkowski replied:

I think caution signs might be in order for when we don't have enough volunteers to keep an eye out for or escort visitors around. Of course, we could lawyer up and have all visitors sign a 10 page waiver and indemnity form but then it wouldn't be 1910 at the Museum. And i come to the Museum to escape that world. Let common sence be your guide (or Joe, I guess...)
Dave

John McNamara replied:

One of the things discussed in the Long Range Plan was well-graded foot-paths that ran alongside the engine house and crossed over the tracks that enter it. This was to be combined with an information kiosk and signs on the bay doors. The general idea was to provide useful information when the museum was closed and to provide enough information and things to see when the museum was open that visitors would be disinclined to actually enter the engine house. The general idea was to be welcoming and not put "do not enter" signs everywhere, but at the same time to gently suggest that willy-nilly wandering was neither necessary nor desirable.

James Patten replied:

What John said

We should not close up the shop because there's not enough people to give the tour, but signs and footpaths should help with information and advice.

Joe Fox replied:

You can't make common sence be your guide because sooner or later, somebody is going to injur themselves, and give us a big law suit. Not only is it better for the passengers to have a guide, so that they can ask questions, and you can describe things to them in more detail. When a big enough crew isn't available then, you can tell them that they have to be careful, and be on the lookout for hazards, such as train cars, or a train coming into the yard.

Joe

John McNamara replied:

Joe is certainly correct that "common sense" isn't very common. If there are sufficient museum personnel available to provide guide service, it certainly would be the preferred way of doing things. Self-guided tours should only be used when there are insufficient personnel available (see Allan's post) and after the people about to take such a tour are forewarned.

Wayne Laepple replied:

I have expressed concern previously about allowing people to wander at will in the shop. Not only are there tripping and pinching hazards, dust, welding flashes, etc., etc., there is also temptation, in that tools are often left lying on a bench or a floor, and it is entirely likely that someone will someday walk away with some tool. Kids may be tempted by the steps to the upper level, or they might climb on a locomotive or car and take a tumble.

What if lightweight chains with "No admittance without guide" signs are hung across the doorways, particularly when no one is available to escort visitors? And on the inside of the doors, panels are posted explaining what people are seeing as they look inside.

Another possibility might be a "corridor" delineated by chains or safty tape through Bay 3 fromt front to back of the shop.

It may be difficult for some of us to imagine, but in today's litigious society, if someone trips and bungs up their knees on a rail or falls into the pit, we are going to be out of business. It is our responsibility to protect our visitors from themselves. We don't have a choice in this matter.

Glenn Christensen replied:

Hi Guys,

Wayne makes an excellent point!  I do believe that card-holding museum members are covered by our insurance (we may have to check) but certainly our "civillian" visitors are not.

In fact we may want to consider adding visitor's bays into any plans we formulate for roundhouses, car shops, etc.  This would allow us to focus our docents (by giving them a particular "work station") and improve our overall visitor experience (by allowing them to watch the work being done while the docent provides interpretation) - all at the same time.

My thoughts,
Glenn

Stephen Hussar replied:

Yes, something that would allow visitors to come in and walk through, without getting in harm's way. Steamtown has the viewing balcony in the roundhouse, while Seashore has one in the restoration shop...

Mike Fox replied:

I like the chain idea. Allowing someone to view but only from a distance without a guide. For the protection of the guests and like was stated, the museum. In this sue-happy world we live in now, someone could simply walk through the yard and trip over a rail or step on a nail and probably win a lawsuit.
Mike

Dave Buczkowski replied:

I believe Glenn is wrong, or at least I hope he is. Our liability insurance should cover visitors as well as volunteers. If it doesn't we shouldn't be allowing visitors on the grounds. I'm surprised that our carrier's loss control department hasn't had a safety engineer stop by for a look see. My father, who is a retired safety engineer, didn't have any words of dire warning when he visited so we can't be too far off base.
Dave

Glenn Christensen replied:

Hi Dave,

I think you'll find that many insurance carriers distinguish between visitors who ride the trains, visitors who view heavy work at a distance and visitors (who may never have ridden a train before) being granted unfettered access to active shop facilities.

Few railroad museums or tourist railroads permit unsupervised access to active shop facilities today precisely for insurance reasons.  I personally think that an intelligent person with some exposure to heavy equipment and a knowledge of basic safety rules is only minimally at risk in such an environment.  But in our litigious society I may be in the minority on this score.  I also feel that shop access is one of the things that makes the WW&F such a precious place.  But I can unequivocally state that unsupervised shop access is not permitted to visitors at operations as far-flung as the Tennessee Valley Railroad Museum, the Durango & Silverton and the Bluebell Railway.  It is possible that the WW&F's non-regulated posture has precluded problems from that quarter,  but a personal injury claim is a different matter and subject to full jurisprudence.

I also believe that visitors crave such access, its simply fascinating.  This is one reason why supervised shop tour programs are becoming a more prevalent trend throughout the industry.

Trust me, I will be most happily proven wrong on this score.  I wish this were not the case.  I had a fan at the Bluebell say the same to me less than a month ago.  But "nanny government" issues aside, I sincerely doubt it.

Respectfully,
Glenn

Wayne Laepple replied:

I must agree with Glenn. Much as we all enjoy the ambiance of Sheepscot, allowing folks who have no clue what a railroad is all about to wander  unfettered is just asking for trouble.

Perhaps in the next edition of the visitors' guide, we could include some indication of locations from which work in the shop can be viewed safely. And volunteer guides should be encouraged to say a few things about personal safety before escorting groups into the shop. Even simple things like not stepping on the rail (slippery, ankle-twister, etc.) and watching you head can be useful.

Joe Fox replied:

Hi everybody,

I like Wayne's idea. Everybody who has been to Steamtown, know that the only way to tour the round house, and shop is to be guided by a tour. I think that is exactly what we should do. I think it would be great to have some type of chain, just like we did at Halloween, that has a sign hanging on it, please keep out, unless with a guide, or something like that.

Joe

Stewart Rhine replied:

The chains at the open shop doors are a good idea when no one is there to guide people through a bay.  Visitors would look in but not enter.  When we do take visitors through, keeping the bays cleaner would make the place safer.  As has been mentioned before, finishing the floors would make them easier to walk through and allow easier moving of parts and supplies.  Better floors would be a big improvement.  Of course the shop and bays will never be totally safe - it's a working railroad building, not a showplace.   Having the chains and signs at the doors is a good (and inexpensive) place to start.

We should consider posting shop tour signs and have tours at a certain time if the manpower is available.  If we give tours once or twice a day it would be easier for us.  Visitors may not like it as much but as Dave said we need to stay of the safe side.

Dave Olszewski replied:

It is good idea if they put chain at shop and post sign there. Why not open door in front so vistiors can look at it from parking lot. Also take photos of shop and put them in visitor center. I think it will be great if we move coal storage to other place. I would love to add building  in front for restroom and kitchen, storage, etc. Also put no parking sign by fire hydrant. Dave

699

Moderator Announcements / Did the Moderator mess up the appearance of the board?

« on: December 13, 2008, 12:06:33 AM »

MODERATORS NOTE:
Did the Moderator mess up the appearance of the board? has been converted from the pre-July 2008 WW&F Discussion Forum.
Some formatting may have been removed or modified from the original postings that appear quoted in this topic.
Information contained within this post may be superseded by more recent postings and conversations.
James Patten wrote:

Friday night I decided to see if I could get the board to look differently than it does, so I made a few changes and put them out there.  Even after reloading I saw no changes, so I left them in in case others could see them.

Today I was told by two people that the board was now messed up and they were unable to read it.  So I have put it back as it was.

Please forgive me my indescretion.  Next time I'll play around with my own settings before messing everybody else up.

Stewart Rhine replied:

James, I was wondering what happened because everything, icons, boxes, etc were very narrow.  Hey that works for a railroad but not my screen.   

Stewart

John McNamara replied:

For me, only the advertisements worked. 

Otherwise, there were some symbols on the far left and some on the far right, but no text at all. Other than the aforementioned ads, there were no areas I could click successfully.

Thanks for restoring it.

tomc replied:

I thought the server died as I couldn't log in.  Keep you fingers off the keyboard please!!!!!!

Dave Buczkowski replied:

James;
I checked in over the weekend from Gail's laptop and saw the same screen as John. I just thought it was either my router or Gail's computer. I was too tired from raking to try and fix it. Now I'm glad I didn't try. Thanks for the information.
Dave

Bill Sample replied:

Losing access to the forum made me realize how addicted I have become!  Had to have a couple of glasses of Moxie to calm down.
Then I checked with the Severn Valley Railway forum, also by phpbb, just to see if it was a host(?) problem, but the SVR appeared normal.
James, I know you were just trying to make a good thing better.  Thanks again for all the time and effort you put into this.

700

Archives (Other Maine 2ft) / How are things going?

« on: December 13, 2008, 12:05:30 AM »

MODERATORS NOTE:
How are things going? has been converted from the pre-July 2008 WW&F Discussion Forum.
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Information contained within this post may be superseded by more recent postings and conversations.
Joe Fox wrote:

How are things going for the Maine Narrow Gauge? I have seen many photos on NERAIL of the recent track laying session, and I must say it looks great, however, also looks different with the standard gauge ties, and the four foot ties combined. I think it is every fifth tie, that there is a standard gauge tie, but I am not sure. Maybe Peter could help me out with that curiosity? Talk to you guys later.

Joe

mwmoulison replied:

Things are up and down at the MNGRR.  The Ocean Gateway project has not only been a nuisance, but it has cost us revenue, and it has somehow managed to pull up track without any gurantee of putting at back.  Legally speaking, I'm not even sure how that works.

Right now, we have new tracks laid to the cruise ship port, and then temporary tracks that allow us to serve India St. for Santafest.

As far as the new section, we got a waiver from the MDOT allowing us to use narrow gauge ties from here on out.  Those standard gauge ties will be cut down to size!

In the spring I plan on putting a new tie under every joint bar on the line.  The tracks were put down badly in the first place, and that makes fixing it a nightmare.  Especially with an all volunteer crew!

Monson #4 continues to run beautifully, she is smooth as anything running over the new tracks.  Hopefully 7 or 8 will roll again in the near future.

Otherwise, we have a lot of things still up in the air.  I don't know how things are going to fall when all this Ocean Gateway business is said and done.  I am optimistic that things could go in our favor.

With great volunteers, some luck, and some $$$, anything can happen!

-Mike

Joe Fox replied:

Hi Mike,

Thanks for the news. It would be great if the MNGRR could resume the regular three mile round trip excursions again in the near future. It would also be great to see #7 or #8 running also, but I hear that #8 needs to have a new boiler built.

Joe

mwmoulison replied:

I have good news for you, #8 does not need a new boiler.  They are all operational.  The problem is the new FRA regulations that went into effect in 2004.  Each engine needs about $25,000 worth of work.  Which the MNG doesnt' have.

-Mike

Joe Fox replied:

That is good news. I have been wondering why you guys need to be involved in the FRA for years. Is it becuase of the city, or the two paved walk ways that you guys cross?

Joe

mwmoulison replied:

We fall under the FRA because the state inspector believes the our Cutter St. crossing was public.  He wrote a letter to the FRA, who the determined that the FRA should look in on our steam program.  There has been some debate over this, as it has been revealed that legally speaking, Cutter St. is a private road, with public access.

However, prying back the fingers of the FRA is not an easy thing to do.

As a volunteer, I have mixed feelings on this.  It is nice that the FRA will hold us to a high standard of safety, but I am crushed to walk by engines 7 and 8 just sitting there.  We need something like $25,000 to do the required FRA work on 7.  $$$ the MNG can't afford to spend given the state of things.

all the best,

-Mike

Joe Fox replied:

That is to bad. I would love to see #7 or #8 running again, only because they are the largest state of Maine two foot gauge locomotives still in existence.

Joe

mwmoulison replied:

I'm right there with you.  It is a shame that 3 (which can run in Phillips),7, and 8 are perfectly operable engines, but the FRA won't allow it until they are practically disassembled and examined.  They all need a little work, but nothing we couldn't handle.

The 2 foot world is really funny.  It is so small (literally), and the various groups don't associate much with each other.

MNG has the most (and most historic) equipment, but can't run half of it.  WW&F has the best track, largest membership, and overall best maintained equipment.  SR&RL is rich in history, the old stone fort, and the turn table!

As far as archive material goes, who knows who has what!?  I know Boothbay has some neat stuff stashed away.

I am a member of WW&F and MNG.  I'd like to see the 2 groups have reps to meet once or twice a year to help each other out.  Get Boothbay and SRRL in on it as well.  If we sent volunteers up once a year, and you guys sent a few down we could do a lot for 2 foot preservation as a whole.  I'm talking the big projects.  Both places have some very capable people!

Your thoughts?

best,

-Mike Moulison

Allan Fisher replied:

I am a life member at all three (MNG , WW&F and SR&RL) and also a member at Boothbay. I have never found anyone shy about getting me to help when I visit. The last time I was at MNG,  the archivist sat me down with two or three others to identify 300 photos that they had just been given of the B&SR/B&H, and a couple of the WW&F., and John Stinchfield at Phillips loves company - who usually wind up helping on his latest projects.

Joe Fox replied:

I think that is a great idea. Have a meeting in July or whatever, and the four museums can talk about how things are going. This should be done before you guys have the National railroad convention, so that way everybody knows what is going on, and when to be at certain museums.

Joe

James Patten replied:

I tried proposing a "Maine Two Footer's Consortium" one time, to share costs of representing all of us at the various shows, such as the National Narrow Gauge Convention, but didn't have any takers.  However a once-or-twice a year conference of two footer's would be a great idea, to share ideas, discuss plans, and make people aware of potential future problems.

We'd probably want to do it in November and April, after and before the operating season.  Any time during the summer we're all too busy to take the time to do that kind of thing.

Bill Reidy replied:

I've wondered if our groups could get together to do some sort of joint promotion, if for nothing else -- something along the lines of the "Great Little Trains of Wales" program.  Of course, the Welsh railways have many more visitors and financial resources than we do, but I wonder if something like this could be done on a smaller scale that would be a benefit to the WW&F, Sandy River, MNG and Boothbay?

Bill

Joe Fox replied:

James,

The power point I am working on, when would you like it done by? Me and dad were thinking, who is going to watch a half hour power point during a train show? Not many people will stay for the hole thing, so I am thinking a 10 to 15 minute power point will be enough.

Joe

James Patten replied:

Joe, I'd like it done by tomorrow.  Thanks.

James Patten replied:

Well, OK, I guess tomorrow's a bit too soon.  Maybe by the end of January?  That way we could take it to Springfield and Augusta train shows and run it in a loop.

Bill Sample replied:

I agree Bill Reidy that a joint promotion program would be beneficial to all.  I would also think that the Maine Office of Tourism would cooperate with a "Great Little Trains of Maine" promotion, and possibly even help with some assistance.
Beware of getting into joint ticket or discount programs - when the RMNE (Naugatuck RR) tried to initiate that a few years back there was little cooperative spirit elsewhere.  Probably best to keep any joint effort away from financial activities!

James Patten replied:

The only joint financial activity I envisioned was everybody pitching into a pot to pay for a "Maine Two Footers" promotional table at shows.  Obviously for nearby shows such as Springfield we wouldn't do that.  But for shows further south and west (Gaithersburg, regional narrow gauge shows, maybe conventions.

mwmoulison replied:

Gentlemen,

I must admit I am surprised by how many people think this is a good idea.  I think it would be beneficial if used properly for all involved.  None of the museums should compete with each other, the 2 foot fan base is far too small.

If we met twice a year (as James said, April and November), we could better work together.  Then joint efforts can be made when beneficial, and perhaps we could get a sense for what archive materials still exist.  Perhaps we can even find safe places to keep historic documents!

I will push this with the MNG staff, perhaps someone could hook me up with an official at WW&F who would be interested in talking to me about this?

thanks again,

-Mike

Joe Fox replied:

Hey Mike,

I agree with you, when you said that we shouldn't compete. Maybe it could be possible for the narrow gauge museums to all set up things that corispond with each other, especially with the Narrow Gauge Convention coming to Portland in less than a year. Things should start to be discussed, as to what is going to happen, and when people are going to be visiting what railroad(s) on what day(s), so that everybody can have things set up when the buses arrive.

Joe

James Patten replied:

Mike, I'm an official (board member) who's interested in getting this off the ground, from the WW&F's standpoint.  I had the backing of the board when I tried it before (about a year ago) and I have no doubt I'll have their backing again.

Allan Fisher replied:

Coordination between the Museums has been going on for months, Martha Sharp is in charge - with Gary Kohler watching over to see that no conflicts result.

MNG will be open and running every day (as they always are that time of year.)

Gary Kohler is organizing a trip to SR&RL on Tuesday.

A bus has been reserved to bring conventioneers to Boothbay and WW&F on Wed, Thurs, & Friday afternoon, and both museums will try to operate steam on these afternoons.

And all Museums will be open and operating on Saturday & Sunday of the Convention.

Have you signed up as an attendee yet?  See the Website for details

Joe Fox replied:

Alan, I will be sure to sign up, after I get my liscense, and I will stay in the general area of the museum.

Joe

John McNamara replied:

Allan,

Can you please post the URL for people who want to sign up. Thanks!

mwmoulison replied:

James,

please feel free to contact me at mailto:captmike331@aol.com.  We can talk anytime, see what we can work out as a course of action.  In addition to the convention, the museums could work together in many ways.

-Mike

mwmoulison replied:

All,

I just spoke with the CMO of MNG, Rick Knight.  He has given this 100% support.  I can count on the backing fo the managment to follow.

My next task will be to contact SR&RL and Boothbay.  If anyone can set me on to Jason Lamontagne's e-mail that would be appreciated.

We could potentially use a joint group when purchasing items (i.e. ties, spikes, rail, etc.) to keep cost down!  If we all order ties from the same vendor and ship them togther we could all save a lot of $$$!!!

Furthermore, the gathering should rotae through the museums, and could even be accompanied with occaisional work weekends.  SR&RL could really use some help with track, Rick suggests we start there if they are open to this idea!

I am thrilled that this seems to be picking up steam rather quickly.  Again, I look forward to hearing from you all.  Again, my e-mail is mailto:captmike331@aol.com.

best,

-Mike Moulison

Allan Fisher replied:

The web site for the National Narrow Gauge Convention being held in Portland Maine on August 29 thru Sept 1, 2007 is
http://www.27thnarrowgaugeconvention.net

701

Archives (Other Maine 2ft) / How about an update?

« on: December 13, 2008, 12:04:21 AM »

MODERATORS NOTE:
How about an update? has been converted from the pre-July 2008 WW&F Discussion Forum.
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petecosmob wrote:

Well, it's been close to a month since the last post regarding MNGRR on this forum, and considering the pics of new trackwork on the NERails photo site, an update as to what's going on up there would seem due.
I'd like to know:
a) Who is doing the work on the new track? The caption in NERails only said "contractor".
b) Will the new trackwork include a run around aas the original (2') layout did?
c) I noticed the volunteer-laid tracks have a std-ga-sized tie every few feet,..is this to accomodate the "possible future standard guage use" agreement the museum and the town accepted  for MNGRR to use the property?
Thanks in advance to whomever has the answers,
Cosmo

Bill Sample replied:

I was told that one of the conditions for the construction of the MNGRR was that they had to allow for possible reconstruction of the old GT line into Portland.  IIRC one of the MNGRR rails was bolted onto one of the old GT rails at the end of the swing bridge.
If the proposal to locate a passenger line along the highway to connect former MEC and GT routes, I would think that the standard gauge tie requirement would be dropped.
Going into history, I think I read that there was a time that the SR&RL installed a few standard gauge ties between Farmington and Phillips as part of an anticipated "broad-gauging" proposal, so 2 foot on standard gauge ties may have had precident.  If nothing else, it sure shows the public the difference between the railways of our affection and the common gauge.

mwmoulison replied:

I don't know whose doing the work.  It is being paid for by the Ocean Gateway Project, so it is there subcontractor doing the job.

Right now, no runaround is being put in place.  This will happen in the spring, but the MNG and Ocean Gateway have not yet agreed where it will be placed.  This has to do with new crossing locations.  At this time permanent tracks are being laid to Hancock St. Crossing (which is new), and temp tracks will allow service to India St. for Santafest.  The temp tracks will go across a paved parkinglot I am told.

Tie length has been a problem.  The track foreman and the treasurer wated to use 4'3" ties as a cost saving move.  But Phin was concerned that we were in violation of the lease.  So we bought 100 4'3" ties and 50 8'6".  we placed 20 of the 8'6" under joints.   We have petitioned the MDOT for a waiver to use narrow gauge ties.  The standard ties in the new section where put in place in case the state said no.  It was a sign of good faith towards the lease in other words.  The remaining standard ties have been cut in half, and will be used on the temp track to India St. After this is done, all future projects will be done with 5 foot ties to give added stability for when we use the heavy baldwins 7 and 8.

Please come out for Santafest and show your support!  I have some fear that the temporary condition of things will be detrimental to our image.

I pray that everything will be in place and ready to go for the Narrow Gauge Convention!

-Mike Moulison
MNGRR Co. & Museum

James Patten replied:

I saw some photos on NERAIL of the new track being put in place.  I haven't been there in a couple of years so I can't picture in my mind where the track is going compared to what was there.

I thought that the ties in the pictures were rather short looking, and I guess I was right!

mwmoulison replied:

Do you guys use 5 foot ties at WW&F?  What is the recommended tie length for the 2 foot?  I've only worked on standard gauge track, I am still learning the specs for working on the 2 foot.

I'm not too worried about the 4'3" on the new section since it has been completely re-graded and ballasted properly.  Though I'll let you know if my feelings change after the Baldwins come out.

The new ROW has been moved towards the water.  The tracks bend about 10-20 degrees right our of the museum station now and end up about 150-200 feet closer to the water.

-Mike

James Patten replied:

We use 5 footers at the WW&F.  I don't think I'd be comfortable with much less than that.  4 foot ties seem rather precarious, to me, considering the center of gravity on the cars, how much they sway, etc.  That's not anything scientific, BTW.

Joe Fox replied:

I noticed that in Portland they have a three foot tie, a few four feet ties, then a standard gauge tie. This is repeated for a while, and I can't help but remember seeing the SR&RL using three foot ties, and having a four foot tie every so often.

Joe

petecosmob replied:

Ok all!!
I've made up my mind,...
come Hellor high water I'll be up for satafest with my daughter. I hope to be by sometime around train time, but with enpough daylight to see stuff.
What time is the first train on Sunday? Last year I got there early and had to wauit in the museum a while,...not that that was so bad.
Pete "Cosmo" B.

Joe Fox replied:

I am pretty sure that trains are only running on Saturdays now. It says on the museum website that the Victorian christmas is on Saturday, December 16th. I believe the first train out it at 10, but I am not possitive on that.

Joe

petecosmob replied:

Joe! I meant at MNGRR,...sorry!
I already have plans to stop by the museum on Sat w/ my little gitrl and hopefully my folks from Mass.
I checked out the MNGRR homepage earlier and I know trains there start at 430.
Cosmo

mwmoulison replied:

Trains will run at MNGRR 4:30 PM to 7:30 PM.  If you're up this sunday drop by the cab and say hi.  I'm the best looking one in there!

-Mike

Joe Fox replied:

That's all right Cosmo. One of these days, I would like to go and see what and how MNGRR is doing since I haven't been down in a few years now. Talk to you later.

Joe

petecosmob replied:

Will do Mike,
and no sweat, Joe!
See y'all sunday,
Cosmo

petecosmob replied:

I was at MNGRR on SATURDAY, Not Sunday.No big woop.
I would've looked for more of the train crew, but my little girl & I were getting pretty hungry at that point, so we skipped the museum itself and headed for dinner.
Anyway we did have fun, and we were both at WW&F earlier that day too. Due to lodging constraints at my Aunts place in Strong, (just of the old grade to kingfield!) we could only spend one night there, and so we hit both 2'ers in one aft/eve and on to my folk's place in Mass.
Anyway.....
See y'all again soon!
Cosmo

petecosmob replied:

I heard a bit of rumor from someone (to remain nameless) who used to be up the museum quite a bit a few years back that Mr Sprague was threataning to evict MNGRR from thier current location. As I have heard nothing else about this recently I only ask as a form of rumor control. It seems to me I MAY have heard something about this a while back, that it was old news even then and nothing ever came of it, or it was already resolved.
If someone in the know (MIKE!) could shed any light on this I'd be much appreciative.
Thanks again,
Cosmo

Ira Schreiber replied:

Ah, the old military system:
If you don't hear a good rumor by 1000 hrs, start one!!

Ira Schreiber

Hear no evil, speak no evil, and don't get caught doing evel!!

mwmoulison replied:

I do recall when this chatter started.  This was back in summer 05'. The fact is, Mr. Sprague has the ability to hand us our notice of eviction at anytime.  This is because he own the building, and there has been speculation he wishes to sell the entire Port. Co. complex.  Phin had never charged us rent money before, but this is changing.  MNG and Phin are trying to work out a lease agreeement that will give us a better sense of security.

I remember our OM in 2005 being concerned about a lack of contigency plan.  IF handed our eviction that gives us under a year to leave presents a nearly impossible task.  Where do you put all this stuff then?

This is purely my opinion, but I am of the school of though that we should be looking to set up a second sight over in the Bridgton/Sebego Lake area.  It wouldn't hurt to have two sites, and we have more than enough equipment.

Things over there are strange.  The circumstances under which MNG formed back in 1993 has haunted the place ever since.  Anytime you try to improve certian things you hit a wall put up either by Phin or the city.

SO the short answer to you original question is he can evict us, but it is unlikely.

best,

-Mike

p.s.  On an entirely different topic:  I was wondering about car restoration.  I have been pushing someone at MNG to take it upon themselves to do some serious car restoration.  I have enough on my plate leading the the charge track restoration and maintaining the steam program.  What is involved?  How much knowledge of carpentry do you need?  How do you guys at WW&F go about it?

James Patten replied:

Zack Wyllie is the primary person who does our car (re)construction, as far as woodwork goes.  He's a plumber by trade, so there's apparently no unlearnable secrets to it.  Marcel Levesque is another who does carpentry, and he's a parts desk person at a auto dealership.

He started with the reconstruction of flatcar #118, which was basically a whole new car.  So was flatcar 126, as in both cases new sills and floor were needed (which really all there is to a flat).  The fancy parts come in fitting the steel or other metal (bolsters, trusses, couplers, etc.) to the wood.

Boxcar 309 was torn to the floor, some sills were replaced and spliced, and then the box was replaced.  Somewhat more difficult to build because there are more trusses.

An enclosed passenger car is another whole ball of wax.  We've never done it, but we hope to someday.

If we want to pursue a discussion on car building, it should have it's own topic.

petecosmob replied:

Thanks Mike,
that answers my questions pretty well. It was hard for me to imagine Phin acting "out of spite" which was the impression I'd gotten from the source.
I DO think setting soething up in Bridgeton would be a neat idea,...but from what I understand property rights would be quite an issue there. AND, there's only so much of the old ROW that's not privately owned.
But I'm not an expert on that area, anyway.
I still think it's a neat idea.
Maybe the threat of moving the whole operation might get the city's attention,....but then they might just tell you "Go for it."
Who knows?

htbrandes replied:

To answer the question about the ties.  During our track weekend we were forced to lay some standard gauge ties (too long a story for this forurm). Since then we have obtained a written waiver on our lease with MDOT which lets us officially put down ties that are less than standard gauge.

So...going forward we are going to lay 5'-0" ties on the mainline working on areas that need it most. The few new standard gauge ties that were laid last fall will be cut back to the same as the other new ties.

Joe Fox replied:

Glad to hear it. I remember seeing photos of the ties, and boy did they look funny.
_________________
“We are extremely proud of our collection of historical railroad equipment, which is the largest of any U. S. railroad, especially our steam locomotives.”
-Steve Lee-

Joe

Mike Fox replied:

Some of the original two footers did it that way. Using Standard Gauge ties with the 5 foot ties. Most notably was the SRRL Between Farmington and Strong, where some ties were replaced with standard gauge ties. Maine Central owned the line at the time so they probably supplied them or there was thought of standard gauging the line to some point north of Farmington.
Mike

Joe Fox replied:

I remember reading about them wanting to standard gauge part of the line, and also heard about it on the SR&RL tape we hvae here at the house.
_________________
“We are extremely proud of our collection of historical railroad equipment, which is the largest of any U. S. railroad, especially our steam locomotives.”
-Steve Lee-

Joe

Stewart Rhine replied:

Mike and Joe are correct.  At one time there was discussion of converting the SR&RL main line from Farmington to Strong to standard gauge.  The SR&RL did install some standard gauge ties, centering them on the track.  One reason for conversion was a planned move of the transfer/transloading tracks to Strong in a new yard with more room.  As we know, the conversion never occurred.

The difference with MNG is that they used standard gauge ties with the rails set towards one end of the tie.  The west rail was spiked down where the standard gauge running rail had been and the east rail was spiked to gauge, leaving a long portion of tie sticking out on the east side.   The original plan was to allow for a possible standard gauge track for dual-gauge use.

702

General Discussion / Maine Central 470

« on: December 13, 2008, 12:03:04 AM »

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Stephen Hussar wrote:

Apologies for the non-narrow gauge content, but I thought those of you in Maine might be interested in seeing what Waterville plans to do with the 470. Image is from the city's official website. http://www.ci.waterville.me.us/470/images/470_design.jpg
Though not exactly etched in stone, it IS a plan....and a $1.8 million dollar plan at that. Some of you may recall that after our presentation to the city council, one of the members remarked that the city should simply hire "the guys down at the WW&F Museum" to perform the necessary work to the engine.

So in actuality there is a reason and connection for posting this here! 


_________________
*                *                    *                   *
"Give me enough Swedes and whiskey and I'll build a railroad to Hell."
- James J. Hill

Josh Botting replied:

I have seen this Loco many times, the buffet across the street is realy good.  I think it is the Talk of the Town Buffet.

Joe Fox replied:

That is interesting Steve. I didn't know that they had plans to do something like that for the 470. I have been up there with Dad to visit the engine, which is no longer fenced in, I don't think.

Joe

James Patten replied:

They should "hire the guys at Boothbay Railway Museum" to build it a new boiler (or rehab the old one).

Joe Fox replied:

Boothbay is starting to get a lot of people that want a boiler built for them, such as the W, W, & F, or the Conway Scenic, which wants the 501's boiler to be restored and repaired. I am not sure if they have any other museums that want them to work on any more steam engines or not.

Joe

Stephen Hussar replied:

James, I agree Boothbay could do it! The comment about the WW&F doing the work came completely out of the blue, and simply shows how "well thought of" the museum is (it may even have been the Mayor himself who said it -- I don't recall).

Interestingly however, through all of the various machinations I keep hearing that even if the locomotive was restored to operation, there'd be nowhere to run her. And I continue to wonder why, since the state of Maine owns the Rockland branch, could she not operate there?
_________________
*                *                    *                   *
"Give me enough Swedes and whiskey and I'll build a railroad to Hell."
- James J. Hill

Joe Fox replied:

If 470 was restored, they could lease the engine to a tourist railroad, so that way they can use it. I don't know if Conway Scenic would want a third operating steam engine, but there are a few other tourist railroads in the state of Maine that might want the engine. Or they could use it to pull a passenger train on a special event, or weekend, like what they do out in Ohio.

Joe

Mike Fox replied:

Need to tell the City of Waterville to contact Eric B. For the drawing part of their presentation. That doesn't look like the 470. Looks like a saddle tank 0-6-0. But I hope they do something like that. It would make a great welcome center for Waterville.
Mike

James Patten replied:

Conway Scenic only has one operating engine right now; MEC 501 is nowhere near operating condition.

It would be nice to have 470 operating on the Rockland Branch but I imagine it all comes down to liability for the operator.

As long as we're dreaming, don't forget there's always the B&ML.

Stephen Hussar replied:

It would be nice to have 470 operating on the Rockland Branch but I imagine it all comes down to liability for the operator.
As long as we're dreaming, don't forget there's always the B&ML.

Let's just use the city of Portland Oregon as an example. While they own the 4449 and the 700, both are maintained and operated by all-volunteer groups and are often times run on city and state owned trackage. But in order to access those tracks both engines routinely utilize UP and BNSF trackage. As a matter of fact the roundhouse where they live is owned by the UP and leased to the city.

I guess I can't understand why the same thing couldn't happen here. Remember, the Daylight was a park engine too, until Mr. Rowland came calling to use her for the Freedom Train.

You want dreaming? Maine became a state in 1820, which makes its bicentennial in 2020. 
_________________
*                *                    *                   *
"Give me enough Swedes and whiskey and I'll build a railroad to Hell."
- James J. Hill

ETSRRCo replied:

Need to tell the City of Waterville to contact Eric B. For the drawing part of their presentation. That doesn't look like the 470. Looks like a saddle tank 0-6-0. But I hope they do something like that. It would make a great welcome center for Waterville.
Mike

I am touched that you would mention me! (If you are referring to me lol) If someone could get me full side views and measurements and a lot of detail photos I could do a scale drawing of the 470. Would be fun.

I guess I can't understand why the same thing couldn't happen here. Remember, the Daylight was a park engine too, until Mr. Rowland came calling to use her for the Freedom Train

Speaking of Mr. Rowland I am firing for him on the 23rd! That should be interesting as I have never met the man before and now I am going to fire for him!

-Eric B.
_________________
Eric Bolton
East Tigard & Southern Railroad Co 1889-1958

Joe Fox replied:

Eric,

That is cool. What engine are you firing for?

Joe

ETSRRCo replied:

New Hope & Ivyland Railroad #40 
_________________
Eric Bolton
East Tigard & Southern Railroad Co 1889-1958

Joe Fox replied:

Oh. Great shot. I have a railcamp buddy that works on the New Hope & Ivyland Railroad, but he said that he doesn't know you, his name is Mike Mouldowney and he is an apprentice firemen.

Joe

ETSRRCo replied:

Yeah I am a student fireman too. I hope to be qualified before the end of the year. I have to take all my tests on the 27th. I havent met your friend yet but I have seen his name on the roster.
_________________
Eric Bolton
East Tigard & Southern Railroad Co 1889-1958

Stephen Hussar replied:

Speaking of Mr. Rowland I am firing for him on the 23rd! That should be interesting as I have never met the man before and now I am going to fire for him! -Eric B.

That's teriffic, Eric -- let us know how it goes! Bring a camera and ask someone to take a couple of pictures of you in the cab.
_________________
*                *                    *                   *
"Give me enough Swedes and whiskey and I'll build a railroad to Hell."
- James J. Hill

Josh Botting replied:

Earlier this year, a diesel passenger was run from Waterville to Millinockett.  Now that would be a cool trip.  Having grown up near that line, I would love to see the country from the rail, there are some beautyfull places along there.  That would be an amiazing run for the loco.....

Joe Fox replied:

I think that any steam engine that had a main line passenger run in the state of Maine would be a big hit, because you can't see a lot of Standard gauge steam locomotives in operation any more, unless you go to a tourist railroad.

Joe

Josh Botting replied:

From personal experience, prettymuch always living near the RR when in the Old Town/Orono/Alton areas, the lines see very little traffic.  Mostly at night.  Even less now with the closing of the OT mill.  However from walking the tracks, they are in awful condition up there.  Its a hope though.  If any one hears of a trip that way, I would really like to know, I saw some pictures of a speeder trip earlier in the year.....

James Patten replied:

I'm willing to accept nearly any bet you place that Guilford Transportation (or do we call it Pan Am now?) would never never ever allow a steam-powered excursion run on any of its trackage.  Look at the time and expense it took to get Amtrak to Maine.  Add a few zeros to the end of that to get steam going.

Stephen Hussar replied:

Yes, the 470 would have to traverse Pan Am trackage to get to the Rockland branch, but there's precedent for such a deadhead move.
_________________
*                *                    *                   *
"Give me enough Swedes and whiskey and I'll build a railroad to Hell."
- James J. Hill

Joe Fox replied:

It would be nice if Pan Am would let a steam train excursion go from Portland to Boston. That would be cool, but the 470 is a MEC locomotive, so I don't think it ever went to Boston. However, I think any spot on the MEC trackage would be great. Especially the Mountain Division would be cool.

Joe

Mike Fox replied:

You would Have to lay track to get the steamer to the Moutain Division.
Mike

Stephen Hussar replied:

I'd love to hear Allan's opinion on this, but in general terms if an operator made the proper arrangements, would the Downeaster route be available for a steam excursion due to Amtrak having usage rights?
_________________
*                *                    *                   *
"Give me enough Swedes and whiskey and I'll build a railroad to Hell."
- James J. Hill

Allan Fisher replied:

The Hauling of a steam locomotive - dead or live  - is up to the owner of the track. Only an Amtrak train has rights on Guilford - and every extra train , or train not covered by the Contract between Amtrak and Guilford (i.e equipped with steam locomotive, dead or live) would need Guilford's permission, and would need to meet Guilford's specific insurance requirements. When I was still working , the insurance requirement for steam locomotives on most Class I Railroads was a minimum of $20,000,000, and many Class 1 Railroads would not allow any steam moveseven if the operators could meet the insurance requirements.

Stephen Hussar replied:

Allan, thank you for the clarification.

For what it's worth I was recently told by the NPS in Lowell that Guilford was very supportive of the 410 project, assisting with the prep and ultimately moving the locomotive (by rail) from Billerica to Lowell free of charge.
_________________
*                *                    *                   *
"Give me enough Swedes and whiskey and I'll build a railroad to Hell."
- James J. Hill

Jon Dandridge replied:

You would Have to lay track to get the steamer to the Moutain Division.
Mike

I believe there is still a track connection to the rest of the world at Hazens - that is how Conway Scenic gets their equipment in. However it would be a pretty roundabout routing.

Jon

Mike Fox replied:

But between Conway and Fryeburg the track is very overgrown with some fishplates removed and even track removed in Fryeburg. Could be done though but would need some attention first.
Mike

BM1455 replied:

Hi all,
I too would love to see the 470 run again at some of the previously mentioned places.  Aside from whatever the moving issues would be the main problem may be weight restrictions.  I think the 470 was a heavier class pacific, where most of the Maine Central's pacifics were older lighter ones.  There may be weight issues on both the mountain division and the Rockland branch bridges.  I have never seen a photo of the 470 or her heavy sister 469 on any of these branches.  They seemed to stick only to the main line.  There may have been a real reason for this besides the newest engines staying on the main routs.
Any one know more about this?
Eric.

James Patten replied:

I have a book on the history of Maine railroads where I believe the cover has #470 on the Rockland branch.  But I'll have to look when I get home to be sure.

Stephen Hussar replied:

Just a nice shot of everyone's favorite pacific, the last time she was under steam.

_________________
*                *                    *                   *
"Give me enough Swedes and whiskey and I'll build a railroad to Hell."
- James J. Hill

James Patten replied:

The book I mentioned is The Best of Maine Railroads by Ron Johnson, and the front cover shows a picture of #470 on a Westbound passenger train in Waldoboro on the Rockland Branch in 1950.

Mike Fox replied:

Guess there is a home for it then. Those NIMBYs in Rockland would really fuss if that was sitting by the station, hissing away, then the compressor kicks on,etc.
Mike

James Patten replied:

I've thought the Rockland Branch would make a great home for a steam locomotive, with the turntable in Rockland and the wye in Brunswick.  Not to mention meeting up with narrow gauge steam when we get to Wiscasset someday (knock on wood).

Unfortunately the other lines out of Brunswick don't make for such a great run, unless the line through Augusta was restored and the engine ran to Waterville to get turned on the wye or table there (but then we deal with Guilford).

Steve Zuppa replied:

To heck with Waterville. What's wrong with the 470,, Brunswick to Rockland, with a meet in Wiscasset on the narrow gauge to...what...Weeks Mills? (Why not,by the time they get their s*** together,we could be there.) lol
S
_________________
"Keep to the code!"
Capt. Jack Sparrow

Stephen Hussar replied:

those NIMBYs in Rockland would really fuss if that was sitting by the station, hissing away, then the compressor kicks on,etc. Mike

Mike, I hope they would see it as a tourist magnet...from what I've been hearing the whole midcoast could use the kind of shot in the arm something like this would provide.
_________________
*                *                    *                   *
"Give me enough Swedes and whiskey and I'll build a railroad to Hell."
- James J. Hill

Mike Fox replied:

Yes, Brunswick to Rockland. Turn it on the Wye at Brunswick and the turntable at Rockland.
Mike

Bill Sample replied:

Last September, after nearly 40 years of driving on parallel US 1, I finally took "the alternate route."   Sue (who already had the mileage) dropped me off at Rockland, and picked me up at Wiscasset (as the WW&F connection didn't show up ).  I always thought the line would be scenic, but it was beyond what I had expected.  One thing would make it better - a native steam loco.
As Mike said the Rockland NIMBYs would probably pitch a fit, but in reality the steamer could slumber overnight quietly if the safety valve didn't pop and the generator and compressor feeds were shut off.  Sue would say my snoring would be louder than 470's

Stephen Hussar replied:

Making something like this happen would take a joint effort by the city, the state, and perhaps one of the transporation museums -- Cole or Owls Head... but it could be done.
And of course one individual would need to step forward -- a Percival, Atwood or Blount-type.

But never say never.
_________________
*                *                    *                   *
"Give me enough Swedes and whiskey and I'll build a railroad to Hell."
- James J. Hill

Jon Dandridge replied:

If you can't have a steam loco, an ex-NH FL9 covered wagon is the next best thing 

A little OT but is it reasonable that the WW&F could ever get back to Wiscasset? I was under the impression the right of way through town had been built up. I assume though that it would be possible to restore the trestle along the waterfront.

Jon

James Patten replied:

Restoring the WW&F to Wiscasset is a dream at current.  There are 2 or 3 houses parked on top of the roadbed, with 1 or 2 more inside the ROW; there's 3 roads to cross; the town owns the old shop area (it's now a ballfield); and the roadbed along the shore is slowly eroding away.  But never say never.

Mike Fox replied:

It would be Nice to restore part of the trestle and park something or build something on it to serve as a billboard. A shell of a caboose perhaps. Nothing that would ever run but just a little advertisement where someone might see it.
Mike

petecosmob replied:

Isn't there a perfectly good enginehouse in Rockland that could house the 470 overnight? I think the M&E trips START in Rockland in the am and run south, don't they?
Either way,....perhaps someone should begin trying to interest M&E in the idea, just to see if they will bite?
Cosmo

Bruce Wilson replied:

There seem to be several rail restoration projects and ideas either underway or in discussion stages within Maine.

Pan Am has reopened a freight line to Anson, I believe and the line from Brunswick to Lisbon Falls is now serviceable. Customers are being solicited and the City of Lewiston is aware of this lines existance and among transportation solutions being sought for the future. When you look at what has gone on with "the Port of Auburn", it is very encouraging.

Maybe a forum reader/contributor will have knowledge on where the "Flying Yankee" will take up residence (and on what tracks) that train will operate...?

But yes, the "470" would be right at home on the Brunswick to Rockland run.

I recall that former Gov. Angus King was pro-rail and attended the Wiscasset & Quebec centennial celebration in 1995. It seems that Gov. Baldacci has helped in setting the stage for rail to be replaced on the Maine Narrow Gauge routing into Portland, that which had been removed earlier this year.

I wonder if a citizens advisory committee might be formed. This committee could chart commercial and municipal rail projects, inventory available transportation corridors and equipment, and advise legislators on the needs and concerns of the rail tourist, rail commuters and museum operations.

A first step might be to create a contact with Maine D.O.T. and Amtrak, the Nat'l Association of Rail Passengers and one of the freight carriers.

In Auburn, the local economic growth council has ownership of a former Grand Trunk line (through Auburn and into Lewiston). There is approximately one mile of rail remaining, with some sections (including the bridge over the Androscoggin River) disconnected. But, it is the goal of this growth council, to keep the corridor intact. At the Lewiston "end", sits a beautiful old brick depot (currently for lease) and at the Auburn "end" is short, stretch of rail running under Pan-Am's mainline. A granite block tunnel allows the old G.T. trackage to pass under the former M.E.C. grade.

There is still a small network of switches and some yard trackage (buried in the grass) in what is now called "railroad park" in Lewiston. Also, within Lewiston sits an old steel 40' boxcar with no markings, painted red.

Sure would be nice to see the old grade get brush cut, the yard tracks be restored and that old boxcar moved over to the depot as a display. Hhmmm, maybe someone ought to write a letter or two...maybe I will

703

Archives (General) / Happy Thanksgiving

« on: December 13, 2008, 12:00:55 AM »

MODERATORS NOTE:
Happy Thanksgiving has been converted from the pre-July 2008 WW&F Discussion Forum.
Some formatting may have been removed or modified from the original postings that appear quoted in this topic.
Information contained within this post may be superseded by more recent postings and conversations.
Steve Zuppa wrote:

I'd like to take this opportunity to wish all the members and friends of the WW&F,as well as the posters and browsers of this forum, a Happy Thanksgiving.
Steve

Dave Buczkowski replied:

Thanks Two Ties and I add my wishes for a Happy Thanksgiving to all my friends at the Museum and forum posters as well as thanks for the wonderful year we had at the Museum. A lot of progress was made in 2006 and it's not over yet!
Dave

Steam replied:

Thanks, Steve...

Hope to see you all at the Victorian Christmas event!

Best wishes to all,
Richard Symmes

Stewart Rhine replied:

Steve, Good post.  There are many things to give thanks for.  A job, good health, family and friends.  Joining the WW&F has brought great friends, especially my best friend, Cindy who will become my wife next Spring.

bperch replied:

Stewart and Cindy,

I wish you the best of luck.  I met my wife, Joanne, through mutual friends that I met and worked with on the WK&SRR here in PA.  I always tell her that if it wasn't for the RR we would have never met one another.  Thirty-two years later and two lovely girls were the result.  I pray that it lasts more than another thirty two and that you two will equal or surpass the wonderful life Joanne and I have shared.

Bernie Perch

Bill Sample replied:

Happy Thanksgiving to all of the WW&F Family.  Looking forward to my next visit!
Guess there are a few "Railroad Romances" out there - think I know of least one other one at the WW&F!
I also met my wife Sue through a railroad group, in this case the RMNE in Connecticut.  We even tied the knot on the "back porch" of a business car at the RMNE's Naugatuck RR.

704

General Discussion / Post #1000!

« on: December 13, 2008, 12:00:17 AM »

MODERATORS NOTE:
Post #1000! has been converted from the pre-July 2008 WW&F Discussion Forum.
Some formatting may have been removed or modified from the original postings that appear quoted in this topic.
Information contained within this post may be superseded by more recent postings and conversations.
James Patten wrote:

This is post number 1000!!  Hurray to us!

It's been less than 3 months, hasn't it?

Bill Sample replied:

James, Thank you for all the time and effort you put into managing this forum.  As I've said before it is a great service to the distant members, helping us all to feel connected.  This forum moved right to the top of my "favorites" list once I had joined.

Stewart Rhine replied:

James,  I also thank you for starting the forum.  For me, it's like taking a 20 minute vacation to Maine.   I think I'm getting addicted to it!   

Stewart

James Patten replied:

I'm not only a member of Forum Posters Anonymous, I'm also the founder!

John McNamara replied:

Gee, James, I haven't heard Sy Sperling's trademark phrase "I'm not just the president, I'm also a client" advertising the Hair Club for Men for at least ten years!

Mike Fox replied:

My wife doesn't get as mad at me on here as she does on Ebay. Thanks James. Time well spent learning and reading what everyone else thinks.
Mike

James Patten replied:

Well Mike, the WW&F is a family-oriented place, we like to promote marital bliss.

Ira Schreiber replied:

That went fast. I second what was said about making us feel we are much closer to Maine than the map shows.
It's book-marked as my favorite, too.
Thanks,James, for all your efforts.
Ira Schreiber
Aurora, CO
Where temperature for Thankgiving is 70+ degrees!!

sgprailfan replied:

Congrats, just added to Favorites!

Stewart Rhine replied:

Sometimes the WW&f creates marital bliss ...

Dave Buczkowski replied:

If the well deserved kudos to James keep rolling in we'll hit 2000 before you know it. My wife much prefers my time at the Museum or talking about it to my having a mistress so it keeps me out of trouble. As for marital bliss, well, maybe if I cleaned the basement...
Dave

Wayne Laepple replied:

At this rate, we're gonna hit 2,000 in the next few days. Boy, do we have a lot to say!

Glenn Christensen replied:

Congratulations, James!!!

You deserve a lot of credit!  I think I read this forum more than any other.

Best Regards,
Glenn

705

Bridgton & Saco River Railway / locating Bridgton Junction

« on: December 12, 2008, 11:58:26 PM »

MODERATORS NOTE:
locating Bridgton Junction has been converted from the pre-July 2008 WW&F Discussion Forum.
Some formatting may have been removed or modified from the original postings that appear quoted in this topic.
Information contained within this post may be superseded by more recent postings and conversations.
Bruce Wilson wrote:

Can anyone help me in my search to locate where the Bridgton Junction station was at Hiram?

I was on the Maine Central right of way in Hiram today and saw evidence of the recent removal of what appears to have been a section house or other railroad storage building. This was "in town" west of the railroad bridge and right where the standard gage passing siding exists. I believe the mile marker there read Portland 37 Miles.

I proceeded to hike the MEC grade east to MP-36 without finding anything else.

Allan Fisher replied:

If the 1941 USGS map I just looked at is correct - the station was about 500 to 600 feet south and east of the river (MEC bridge)

Glenn Christensen replied:

Hi Bruce,

You walked right by it!  MP36 has to be pretty near to where the switch for the MEC interchange yard was.  Bridgton Junction depot was located at MP 36.3 (mileage from Portland) on the former Maine Central line.

From the location of the former Hiram depot, follow the line eastbound (towards Portland).  After you cross the bridge over the Saco River, the B&SR line swung in from the north (on your left) on a broad curve.  The depot  was a couple hundred yards on your left.

If you're headed towards Portland on Rt 113, the road crosses over the Saco River and immediately connects with Rt 117 on the northeern bank of the river.  Take a right at the junction of the two roads.  The two roads closely parallel the northern bank of the Saco for about 1/2 to 3/4s of a mile south.  The road crosses a small stream, this is the outlet for Hancock Brook.  At little further along, the road takes a right hand curve and starts up a hill.  There is a small house at this point with the hill immediately behind.  You can't see it but the B&SR grade runs behind the house on this hill.  The road continues a short distance uphill and then swings back to the left.  Very close to this point, there is another house at your left.  It either sits right on the grade or is darn close to it.  Bridgton Junction yard was immediately to your right.

I hope these directions help you find it.  I haven't been there in some 10 years.  Please let me know how the area looks.

Best Regards,
Glenn

Bruce Wilson replied:

Thanks Allan and Glenn, your help is very much appreciated.

As I write this, there is a photo of an eastbound Maine Central freight train approaching the Junction station on eBay. I estimated the distance from the bridge to the station, by the number of cars (40' boxcars) shown in the photo and multiplied by the number of cars and then I walked from the bridge out to where I thought the site should be and then kept going to MP-36. It just didn't "feel" right for some reason. Maybe because I was haunted by visions of film footage showing an eastbound passenger run steaming into the station, with the bridge way off in the distance. I'm now thinking that the film footage I was remembering was likely shot from across the Saco and my sense of direction was all off.

Anyway, I did go across the river and easily found the grade and followed it up to Joe Bennett's cottage. Before driving up the grade (with a street sign proclaiming "Narrow Gauge Trail - Private Way"), I noticed a small shed back in town that looked like it might have once had a use along a railroad line. After riding a few miles of the grade, I went back and took a photo of the shed. Once I get the film developed, I'll check to see if any similar structures appear in photos of the Bridgton narrow gage.

This is only my second trip to the B & SR searching for clues. An earlier trip this year landed me at Sandy Creek and provided a long and pleasant hike southward down the grade.

Next stop...Bridgton.

Thanks again to you both and to anyone else wishing to comment about surviving traces of this two footer.

Glenn Christensen replied:

Hi Bruce,

Sounds like you're making some good progress!

If memory serves, the place where you picked up Narrow Gauge Trail is at Rankins Mill.  The right of way crosses the main road to Convene at that point.  As you continue north towards Barker Pond, the rock cutting is at "Summit".

If you head back southbound from Rankins Mill, the right of way crosses the Convene road and then another side road which continues straight across over Hancock Brook.  This is the old "Double-barrelled road crossing".  The ROW stays on the north/west bank of the brook and passes behind a house sited up on the little knoll there.  This is where the northbound #7 was laid over on her side in the famous photograph.  A mile or so further south you will come to the Hancock Brook stone masonery arch where the narrow gauge actually crossed over to the south side of the brook and started up Smalls Mountain on its way to Bridgton Junction.  If you've not seen the arch, you really ought to.  I understand its still in pretty good shape.  (It was in excellent shape the last time I saw it.)

Of course this is the long way in.  Its easier and shorter to walk in to the arch from the site of Smalls lumber yard.

Wish I could be there with you!

Best Regards,
Glenn

PS- there used to be a lot of discarded ties (some still with spikes) scattered along the right of way on the steep upgrade from Hancock Pond to the "Notch".  Be sure to check it out.

Mike Fox replied:

Bruce,
The way I ploted the exact location of the station was the old telephone poles that were barely visible. Just about a foot was left standing. Comparing their location with photo's I was able to estimate where it stood. Hope you found the turntable pit and enginehouse remains while there. And Did you see the Hancock Brook arch? I plan a return trip again shortly so I can take some good photos while the leaves are gone and there is no snow.  Most of the Grade between Sandy River and Hancock Pond is accessible by 2WD truck with a little luck. And you can drive through the notch by taking a camp road.
Some things in Bridgton to see, the canning factory foundation (it never opened) and the coal trestle on the Harrison branch. The Bridge over Stevens brook on the Harrison branch still had the framework in place until a couple of years ago. And it is still possible to see several of the abutments on the Harrison branch. If you would like directions to other locations, let me know or email Dana and we can probably help you out. I live fairly close so am very farmiliar with the area.
Mike

Bruce Wilson replied:

Glenn, Mike and Allan,

Thank you so much for the wealth of information you have provided. I do plan to visit the Bridgton line again and will use your recollections and suggestions as a guide to my own continuing exploration. I am embarrased to admit how much I overlooked on my last survey of the property.

Maybe I can catch up with you guys at Sheepscot and compare notes, but I will be heading to the B & SR country as soon as possible. Hopefully, before the snow comes...

If I can get a little advanced notice on the next trip, I'll post here and offer to meet anyone interested at the Hiram yard.

Thanks again...

John McNamara replied:

As you enter Bridgton on route 302 northbound, you will see a school and associated athletic fields on your left,as you probably know. On the opposite side of 302, there is a gas station, and the right of way is immediately to the right of the gas station building.

Mike Fox replied:

Bruce,
I would be glad to meet with you for a trip over the B&SR. I covered it all once in about 4 hours. Saw most of it.  Been kind of wet up here lately so I think a couple of spots might be wet but if it stays cold enough, it will harden.
Mike

Bruce Wilson replied:

Thanks for your info John and to Mike, I look forward to taking you up on your offer. Perhaps I could meet you at Hiram some Sunday morning. I'll be at Sheepscot tomorrow morning. Maybe we can talk more then...

Dana Deering replied:

How did I miss THIS entire discussion??  Shame on me.  Hope I haven't missed the chance to get in on the B&SR trip.  I know a few points of interest.

Dana

Mike Fox replied:

Dana,
I think you know the B&SR better than most. I need to get out there again soon before snow flies. Want to get some good photos.
Mike

Duncan Mackiewicz replied:

Dana, I feel the same way.  How too did I miss out on this discussion?  I have a wealth of pictures taken by me from along the right of way from Bridgton to Hiram.  My most recent pics were taken during the summer of '05 to the left of 302 where it approaches the center of Bridgton.  There are several beautiful stone abutments (minus bridges of course) on the right of way as it passes from where the new Hanaford's is located to the edge of the road leading to Sandy Creek by the town dump/disposal station.  I also have a video that I created over the course of several summers that documents most of the right of way from Bridgton to Bridgton Junction.  There is a fellow who has written several books in the Images of America series on the towns around Bridgton.  He and his wife have an extensive picture collection as well as personal knowledge of the B&H/B&SR.  They are Diane and Cliff Barnes and coincidently live along the B&H right of way in Hiram.  There are many areas of interest on the old right of way where abutments and culverts can be found as well as the old turntable pit in Hiram.
I would be happy to bring those pics or even the video to the museum some time if anyone is interested.
Duncan

Glenn Christensen replied:

Hi Duncan,

As an old B&SR fan, I'd love to see your photos.  But living in Georgia makes to hard to get up to the museum as often as I would like.

It would be wonderful if there was some way to get your photos posted on the web at some point.

Best Regards,
Glenn

Mike Fox replied:

Glenn and Duncan,
I have asked the owner of NE Rail to create a B&SR section. I want a place to display some of the current photos as well as a place for people to share the older ones they have. I am hoping to get over there this week while we still have no snow up here yet.
Mike

Duncan Mackiewicz replied:

Glenn and Mike,
I would love to log in my pics. However, I'm not sure how clearly they would come out since they were all shot 35mm rather than digital and I'd have to scan them.  If Nerail can start a file I'd be willing to give it a try.
If a file is created I'm sure others would be willing to post pics they have as well.  We lovers of the B&H could then share and enjoy each other's efforts.

Mike Fox replied:

I have put in the request. I just don't know how long it will take to create it.
Mike

Bruce Wilson replied:

Duncan,

I'd love to see your photos. Any chance you might consider bringing them to the museum during the 2007 annual meeting?

Bruce

Duncan Mackiewicz replied:

Bruce,
I'd love to bring the album I've created to the museum but it won't be for the annual meeting.  I won't be making the trip at that time.  However, since Mike has just noted on another of the Bridgton blogs that Nerail has opened a spot for the B&H, I will try to start uploading my pictures to Nerail.  That way anyone and everyone will be able to view them.
Duncan

Bruce Wilson replied:

Thanks Duncan, will look forward to seeing your photos on NERAIL.

Duncan Mackiewicz replied:

Bruce,
I've started putting a few digital pictures on Nerail since the B&SR file is now open.  Mike has already loaded quite a few nice picks as well.  As soon as I get a bit of free time I will start scanning my 35mm photos and upload them as well.
Duncan

Bruce Wilson replied:

Duncan,

Thanks, I've been enjoying the B & H photos as they are posted. Can't wait to get over to the old railbed and do some more exploring.

Bruce

Duncan Mackiewicz replied:

Bruce,
Ditto for me.  The B&H is my first love and it's responsible for my interest in the 2 footers in general and the WW&F in particular.  Who would have thought that a simple week's vacation camping in Maine could lead to so many new friends and such a worthwhile pursuit as the 2 footers.
Duncan

Bill Sample replied:

Thanks to Mike for the Maine Aerial Photography site.  Just got done using that and a back up of vintage topo maps from the UNH site to explore the B&SR from the junction to Bridgton.  Tracing this line seems a lot easier than the WW&F or SR&RL portions that I have checked out.
This also helped me to locate Bridgton Jct. for future use.

Bruce Wilson replied:

I read you Duncan, I can't get enough either. For me, it has been a thrill to walk on the areas that I have only been able to read about or interpret through photographs. The aerial mapping is helpful and I'm reminded of a time when Harry Percival set out from Wiscasset riding shotgun in a helicopter. He was intending to film the W.W. & F. right of way through the lense of a borrowed camera. Soon after liftoff, he developed motion sickness from staring through the camera lense at the rapidly moving countryside below. He lasted until somewhere in the Alna area and had to set down. Don't know if that project ever went any further...

Anyway...it has been a blast to see all the helpful and enthusiastic postings in this discussion forum. It seems a great way for everybody to keep in touch.

I set out to explore Bridgton Junction yesterday, but called it off due to the snow and my van not being very good on slippery roads. I didn't want to chance walking the MEC grade and falling off the Saco River bridge in Hiram either...so, another day and I'll try again.

Last trip I found two spikes, a pair of joint bars and saw Dana's coal memorial.

Mike Fox replied:

I remember finding the joint bars in the yard area. The were partially burried so I pulled them out. We brought a couple home but left the rest there. If I remember right, it was a hot day and they were in the sun. Like playing a game of hot potato. And if you don't want to cross the bridge, the way I do it is park on the old road next to 113/5. There is a logging landing there. Then just walk the old road to the south end of the yard or just go to the north end. It is only a couple hundred feet from the landing toward the bridge.
Mike

Bruce Wilson replied:

Mike,

Then I have you to thank for the joint bars...

I left three others in the same spot, and for the same reason as you left the ones you found.

There are more spikes of course, and Dana could build a much larger coal memorial if he chose to do so...

Mike Fox replied:

Yes, there are many more stumps to cover.
Mike

Dana Deering replied:

Guys,

If I had had room in my pack I would have packed out my memorial to burn in one of our locomotives.  Now I'm glad that I left it.
Ditto to Duncan's post.  The B&SR is my first love as well.  I was lucky that my grandmother was a closet B&SR fan.  She took some photos, which I have, and she was the first to get me hooked.  Her brother was also a fan and she got us talking one day (mind you I was about 8 years old) and next thing you know he lent me Moody's book.  And you all know how the "affliction" progresses from there.  Later I was in the barber shop and saw a little ad for RR Magazine so I took some of my hard earned lawn mowing money and subscribed.  It was through that mag that I bought my own copy of Moody's.  Then for Christmas 1969 I got Busted and Still Running from my grandmother.  In 1970-1 another friend of my grandmother, Ernest Ward, who had been a brakeman on the B&SR, published  My First Sixty Years in Harrison, Maine.  One day my grandmother took me to visit him and he told me some stories about the B&SR and I got an autographed copy of his book, which has one of the best descriptions of a B&SR logging train operation that I have ever seen.
Even luckier for me was the fact that my family had camps on Hancock Pond and in 1969 my folks bought a lot right across the road from the B&SR roadbed near the Swamp Road.  At that time the West Sebago Station was still standing and I explored it as often as I could.  I walked the ROW every time we were at camp and back then there were a lot of ties and spikes still in situ and I collected quite a few.  And I still explore using the camp as my base whenever I go up.
If that wasn't enough I later found out that my great-great grandfather, Loren Merrifield, was Section Foreman on Section 2, which included the Hancock Pond area.  What fun to know that I have B&SR DNA!  There are photos of him in TFTTL.
Anyway, if any of you are still awake, let's set a date to get all of us together and take a B&SR field trip.  We really should pool all of our bits of knowledge and we could all learn a lot more about this great little road.  We could use our camp as our base if you like.  It's just about at the half way point on the RR.

Dana

Stewart Rhine replied:

Dana, I really enjoyed reading your post.  It's interesting to see the history you and your family have with the B&SR/B&H.  I'll have to dig around and see what other B&SR stuff I have to post.

Mike Fox replied:

Dana,
Don't worry about boring any of us. I like reading the short stories that some post on here. Wish I had one for myself. I just describe myself to others as a nut. In fact, that is my ebay user name. Miketrainnut. Anyhow, got anymore stories, type away.
Mike