W.W.&F. Discussion Forum
WW&F Railway Museum Discussion => Work and Events => Topic started by: Gordon Cook on September 18, 2008, 03:42:07 PM
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I've been working on refurbishing the spare Metropolitan injector for # 10 and can report pretty good progress.
For those who have pondered the magic that occurs inside of one of these devices here is a picture of it in pieces:
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2006-10/1221509/IMG_0253.JPG)
As you can see there's a lot going on in there!
The shiny parts are the two new tubes that I made to replace the damaged old ones. The internal valves which control the steam flow have been refinished and I'll be renewing a couple of the outside linkage parts to reduce the play.
Hopefully in a couple of weeks our fireman's side injector will no longer be the PITA that it is now.
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Nice work, Gawdon. 'Course, having an injector that works all the time will take all the mystery away. Never did like mysteries, anyway.
Steve
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Gordon, Thanks for posting. I never knew they were that extensive. Looks like a lot of work.
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Back many moons ago when I was at the controls in the cab, we carried a gallon jug of cold water and a ball pein hammer. These were standard tools for getting a balky injector to pick up water. Crude, but effective.
Ira Schreiber
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I see that a Makita cordless drill and a test tube are required tools for this operation. ;)
-John
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Thanks. Steve, I hope a properly working injector doesn't make firing #10 any less exciting! ;)
Ira, this gun has been hammered and abused quite a bit. I'm puzzled as to why whacking it would help, the only thing I can think of is the case where the check valve is stuck (that's on the right side in the picture, at the output into the boiler) but otherwise it shouldn't have any effect. Everything else that moves is connected to the operating lever.
And, yes John, you have a sharp eye, but those aren't test tubes. They belong to my other career, designing speakers.
I was experimenting with the ideal shape for port tubes for small vented (bass reflex) speakers, and shaping plastic tubing so it has a gradually expanding cross section from the middle to the ends. Ironically, the injector work gave me some insights into this, and I used the same principle as the delivery tube in the injector uses to smooth out the air flow through the port tube. In small, high output speakers the air velocity is limited by the noise it makes as it tries to go through the tube, so any improvement there improves the speaker's bass output which comes out the port.
Now, back to smoothing up the steam valve stem.
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If I may inject myself into this conversation....
What exactly is an injector? Me, being a newbe to steam railroading hears terms like these all the time, but has no idea what they are or the purpose they serve.
Thanks,
-Ed
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An injector injects water into the boiler. Steam comes in from the top, water comes in from the bottom, a miracle occurs in the middle causing the energy from the steam to turn into velocity for the water, which causes the water to overcome the pressure behind the check valve at the boiler and open the valve to let the water in. Pulling the handle back causes the miracle to happen.
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Gawdon, et al,.
The ball pein hammer was exactly for the check valve as the water we used
had a high grass and straw content.
The injectors, Penberthy I believe, were controlled by globe valves and not levers. At just the right moment, a judicious tap of the hammer would get the check ball to move and allow water to enter.
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Hello Gordon,
Beautiful work! Were the original tubes wire drawn? Did you have to make special reamers for the steam nozzle, combining tube and delivery nozzle? Please post some pictures of the tooling! Just curious, are the tubes straight tapers or are they a curved cross section. The Sellers injectors I've worked on had a curved inner taper, and I'd bet making a reamer for those would be very involved.
Again....superb work of which you should be justly proud!
Keith
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Well, to be honest I am not familiar with 'wire drawn' . The originals are castings to be sure, with machined surfaces and threads. I believe the internal passages were formed by a core in the casting, but it is hard to tell because of the pitting and wear. I do understand the lost wax process and they might have been made that way, but that's a guess.
The tubes all have conical cross-sections, no curves. I took plaster castings of the internal passages to measure their dimensions as accurately as I could. Linn Moedinger of Strasburg replied to an inquiry in RYPN's message board that they found that a curved section wasn't a noticeable improvement over the conical section, so I assume that the injector manufacturers discovered the same thing and went with the straight conical sections for ease of manufacturing. But your comment about the Sellars is useful and interesting. I am hoping that it will work far better than the worn 'gun' we have now, even if the dimensions and angles aren't exactly what the manufacturer originally specified.
I thought about making reamers, but after some research and thought I realized it would be far easier to just set up the compound rest and bore the tapers, so there isn't any tooling. The smallest tube is the combining/forcing tube and it is about .2 " at the smallest diameter, with a taper of around 2.5 degrees to the ends. I have assumed ( I know, I know!) that the tolerance required isn't that tight.
We'll be able to test all this next weekend, I hope, as all I have to do is assemble the injector and am waiting for the right packing material for the valve stems, which should come this week.
Thank you for your kind complements. I especially appreciate that from you, Keith!
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Gordon,
"Wire drawn" cones have been cut by the steam, sometimes you will actually see a groove cut in the cone, if there were solid particles in the steam, from particulates in the water supply. I "think" the term wire drawing comes from the fact that the resultant worn hole resembles a wire drawing die. I am pretty sure the original cones would have been sand cast....but using "French Sand" which is very fine and allows excellent detail. I don't think the "Lost Wax" (Investment casting) was very wide spread outside of art foundries, back when injectors were made. I suspect that the makers mostly used "form tools" to cut the cones. Daniel Bernoulli would be proud of you!
Keith
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On Friday night, the 26th, I installed the refurbished 6 1/2 Metropolitan injector on #10 after a little wrestling with the old one to remove a part from it that was needed.
On Saturday we fired up and I fully expected that the rebuilt injector would work, but, while it lifted readily, it would not inject. ???
I would have liked to examine the combining/forcing tube from of the 'old' one, but I couldn't remove it with the tool that I had, and so we had to revert to the original 5 1/2 size injector that has been on #10 for the last 4 years.
By the sounds of the rebuilt unit when attempting to get it to work, I would guess that the new tube that I made was not generating enough pressure to open the check valve. So I'll bore it out and remake it with a replaceable insert so that I can do some experiments. The other possibility is that the steam nozzle was worn, as Keith had explained it was 'cut' from the steam, and maybe it isn't working well enough anymore.
Jason may be able to secure another Metropolitan of similar size and vintage for examination, so I'm hoping to get some additional information regarding the tube dimensions.
So the experiment continues....
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Gordon,
Before you go back inside the injector...you want to check for any vacuum leaks on the delivery side of the injector. If you are getting a lifting action, but it is all coming out of the overflow...it sounds more like a tiny vacuum leak in the piping after the injector. You will also get that kind of reaction if you have a tiny steam leak in the steam valve and it is overheating the injector. Closing the overflow and opening the starting valve should blow the water in the injector back into the tender tank, and theoretically cool water should replace the heated and allow the injector to work. From what you describe, however, it sounds more like a vacuum leak, probably at the point where the injector is attached to the delivery piping. The tiniest of leaks, almost undetectable will keep an injector for being able to lift the check against boiler pressure.
Keith
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Good call Keith - I was going to suggest the same thing but you beat me to it..
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Ken,
That is probably not a locomotive injector, but rather one from a portable boiler or steam tractor. The feed line size is way too small for a locomotive. A 1 - 1/2" NTP fitting has a hole less than 1" in diameter bore, which would not deliver enough water quickly. I have never hear of a locomotive using a Penberthy, other than some miniature locomotves such as a Crown Metal Products or Cagney.
Keith
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Penberthy injectors were pretty common on industrial steamers although they may have been replacements. I've seen them on locomotives up 15"x24" cylinders and I'm quite sure the #10 does not use injectors bigger than a 1 1/2".
Dave
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I have seen a lot of industrial steam locomotives and narrow gauge, and invariably they have used Sellers, Nathan and Metropolitan injectors. If the 4-4-0s at the B&O Museum have Penberthy injectors...they are replacements as Penberthy did not come into existence until 1886. The steam injector was invented by Henri Giffard, a French scientist, and was licensed to be manufactured in this country by the William Sellers Co. in Philadelphia. Most locomotives including the engines here at the WW&F use horizontal lifting injectors with a starting lever. In use, merely pulling back a lever first uncovers a ring of priming nozzles that allow the injector to create a vacuum and lift the water from a level lower than the injector. The Penberthy type required the operator to first open a water valve (a globe valve) and then CAREFULLY open a steam valve slightly to first prime the injector...then slowly open the steam valve farther to cause the water and steam to lift against the pressure in the boiler.
You can see an example of the type of injector that is best for RR service at the Strasburg RR's web site, here: http://www.strasburgrailroad.com/mechanical-reproduction-parts.php
I have used Penberthy injectors, and believe me if I had a choice, I would not use one on a locomotive.
Keith
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Ken,
Check my pervious posting, and click on the link to the Strasburg RR web site. They now manufacture brand new replica Sellers Type N horizontal lifting injectors.
However, the work Gordon is doing is beautiful and I have no doubts that the injector he is working on will work properly once the small finishing details are attended to and that spare injector is in service.
There are also supplers in the United Kingdom that manufacture new injectors, although they are of the Gresham and Craven design and will have British Whitworth threads, requiring an adaptor to connect to U.S. pipe fittings.
They would not be an authentic accessory for use on an American narrow gauge locomotive.
Keith
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Speaking of #10 continuing to run smoothly, I was pleased to see during the last work workend that someone had installed a neat set of brass oil cups on the valve rocker shaft that perfectly match the larger pair on the crossheads. I found the new set at a swap meet in Dublin, New Hampshire a few years ago and mailed them up to Alna in the hope that they might work for this purpose. Stewart Rhine said he thought Gawdon had installed them recently.
Railroad museums sometimes have the problem of being inundated with things dropped off by well-intentioned people who think they might be useful, but in this case I'm glad I made the right call.
Jon Chase
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There are some recent images of engine 10 at www.railpictures.net Enter "USA Maine" in the country/state location search box and then click the [Find the Photos] button. Scroll through pages 1 and 2 for photos of the WW&F. Note : There are some broad gauge shots mixed in there too.
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I just love the night photo of Dana. Watching the photo take place, I was amazed and walked away with more knowledge in the fine art of night photography.
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Duncan, Some of the photos are from the John Craft charter which was held October 3rd. That was a great day for the WW&F. John and his team had professional set lighting and equipment. He brought visitors who have been to steam railroads all over the world and many said that the WW&F is one of the best narrow gauge lines they have ever seen. All our volunteers did a super job representing the railroad. Most of us had rolls to play in the filming. We did our regular jobs with direction from the film crew. It was a very enjoyable 16 hour day.
The night shot of Dana was from the volunteers special night train which ran during the track weekend. Steve H. set up a special photo shoot at Alna Center during a stop on the way back. As Mike said, it was facinating to see how he ran the shoot and the beautiful end result. I think Dana offered to sign autographs afterward... :D
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Stewart,
I suspected many of the pictures were from the charter. They were just too good to be casually taken shots by a visitor. Besides, the night shots and the posing of many regulars such as yourself gave away the timing as that of the charter. Regardless, the shots are really nice and certainly showcase the museum very well.
Duncan
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Mike and Stewart, thanks so much! It was fun jumping out and grabbing that shot. I have been very fortunate over the years to have been asked to work on an interesting variety of productions. This past summer we updated the Nikon School video series, shooting a new program covering the use of flash called, "A Hands On Guide to Creative Lighting." It's the ABC's of flash photography, but the program includes a terrific how-to section on night multi-flash photography where Joe McNally used 12 strobes, all wireless, to light a scene on a dock in Gloucester, MA. (hopefully, next time we'll use a train instead of a boat!) http://www.nikonusa.com/dvd/Hands_On/index.html
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MODERATORS NOTE:
WW&FRy #10 has been converted from the pre-July 2008 WW&F Discussion Forum.
Some formatting may have been removed or modified from the original postings that appear quoted in this topic.
Information contained within this post may be superseded by more recent postings and conversations.
ETSRRCo wrote:
I think that it can be easily sad that the #10 has become the backbone and heart of the WW&FRy's operating equipment. Over the years she has evolved into one of the finest looking steamers in the country and its all due to the hard work of the museum. The museum would not be the same without the #10. My question is once the #9 is back in service what will become of the #10. How often will the old girl run the high iron and if and when the #11 is built will the #10 still be used on trains? I would hate to she her regulated to stand by service. She has really become the face of the WW&F in my opinion. No matter what though I know she is in good hands.
-Eric
_________________
Eric Bolton
East Tigard & Southern Railroad Co 1889-1958
John McNamara replied:
I have always thought that #10 is a great engine. It will always have the virtues that its small size means it can be steamed up fairly quickly and that it is conservative of coal and water. I expect that in low traffic situations, these virtues will overcome its lack of power and make it the ideal choice for those situations.
James Patten replied:
I think John is correct, in that on weekends where we don't expect a lot of traffic, #10 will be used. Probably on one weekend a month, #9 will be used. If traffic grew to the point that during July and August we needed both coaches, the open car, and the caboose to haul everybody, then I'm sure #9 would be used during those months and #10 used during other months.
Jason has calculated it only uses about $50 worth of coal per day. This is using the previous coal delivery, not our current one which probably makes it $75 worth of coal a day. Fifteen adult tickets pays for the coal and all train operation incidentals, probably (at $6/ticket). That doesn't include the insurance and lights, of course.
Joe Fox replied:
So if we have more than 15 people per day, we have made a proffit off of it. That is great. The engine has some great stack talk, especially with three cars, as I have just noticed from this past weekend.
So #9 will be like the B & H engines in Portland, and only used for special events and big trains? What about when adn if we get the need to run two trains a day? What will happen with the two steam engines?
Joe
Jason M Lamontagne replied:
James and John have answered pretty accurately. No 10 is very economical and therefore will always have a place in regular service. Even when a bohemouth No 11 is next door.
If we only had No 9 and larger engines, for example, we may be hesitant to run steam for work trains and shoulder season events, due to expense and throuble. No 10 allows us to run an essentially all steam railroad, by making steam more practical on a routine basis. It's a great engine for that.
I have some different thoughts for No 9 however. We are doing a thorough overhaul, which is intended to make then engine ready for any service it ever saw- I didn't want to have to train crews to "baby" it. While its history should be respected, it was intended to pull trains and is being restored to do so; there is no particular reason to keep it in the barn.
One approach is that 10 would run the shoulder seasons- spring into June, then September through the end of the year. 9 will take the meat of the summer, and kept ready through Halloween, then winterized. This keeps wear on the two locomotives roughly equal, makes for smooth 31 day inspection cycles, puts them on traffic that they are well suited for, and keeps 9 off the work trains (and the associated dirty environment and rough unfinished track).
Of course there are other ways to do this and we'll work it out as we get closer.
see ya
jason
Joe Fox replied:
Ok. I did notice that #10 doesn't require that much coal, except for when it gets used like it did this past weekend. Because steam was required both ways, instead of just one. Is the tourist season more popular in June-September? I haven't really paid attention to the amount of passengers, or the months that have the most people. Does any body think that there might be a need, in the future to run two trains, say between 218 and Sheepscot?
Joe
ETSRRCo replied:
James and John have answered pretty accurately. No 10 is very economical and therefore will always have a place in regular service. Even when a bohemouth No 11 is next door.
If we only had No 9 and larger engines, for example, we may be hesitant to run steam for work trains and shoulder season events, due to expense and throuble. No 10 allows us to run an essentially all steam railroad, by making steam more practical on a routine basis. It's a great engine for that.
I have some different thoughts for No 9 however. We are doing a thorough overhaul, which is intended to make then engine ready for any service it ever saw- I didn't want to have to train crews to "baby" it. While its history should be respected, it was intended to pull trains and is being restored to do so; there is no particular reason to keep it in the barn.
One approach is that 10 would run the shoulder seasons- spring into June, then September through the end of the year. 9 will take the meat of the summer, and kept ready through Halloween, then winterized. This keeps wear on the two locomotives roughly equal, makes for smooth 31 day inspection cycles, puts them on traffic that they are well suited for, and keeps 9 off the work trains (and the associated dirty environment and rough unfinished track).
Of course there are other ways to do this and we'll work it out as we get closer.
see ya
jason
That makes me very happy as I have grown very fond of the old gal. She is quite the little fire cracker. I am glade that she has found such a loving home.
-Eric
_________________
Eric Bolton
East Tigard & Southern Railroad Co 1889-1958
Joe Fox replied:
#10 sure is quite the little engine. Many of our passengers/tourists love seeing the steam engine in operation. However, a few volunteers seem to think that it is a waste of time to fire up #10, for both passenger train service and work trains. Even though steam engines require a lot of time and maintenance, I think that they are worth the effort, because they draw a lot of railfans and historians.
_________________
“We are extremely proud of our collection of historical railroad equipment, which is the largest of any U. S. railroad, especially our steam locomotives.”
-Steve Lee-
Joe
Stewart Rhine replied:
I have been a fan of the ten since the day I saw her unloaded from the low boy trailer in 1999. We were all looking at her fake diamond stack, brass running boards and angle iron pilot. The following day I painted the number 10 on her cab and WW&FRy on her tender. She looked ok but Jason said something to the effect that the engine would get the WW&F treatment. Well that certainly happened - eight years later she has been rebuilt, improved and is a great running locomotive. She also is a darn fine looking engine. I think I have more photos of her than of my family!
James has a good idea about a rebuilders plate. Maybe we could put one on the tender (when the new one is built). That way it wouldn't detract from the original builders plates and Bernie's new number plate up front. Maybe Bernie could come up with a design for a new rebuilders side plate.
I think having number 10 in work train service is one of the best things we do for the track weekends. I enjoy seeing her hauling freight trains and working in the construction block. There's something great about a steam locomotive "just being part of the scene". The fact that she blends in so well makes me think of how things probably looked when the W&Q ran construction trains out of Wiscasset with engine 1.
I'd like to see Engine 9 involved in the track weekends. I know an 18 ton engine won't be traveling the unballasted track but having her in steam, pulling stone trains, etc. would be a nice touch. It would be alot more work but is there a chance that the 9 and 10 may both be in steam for a track weekend some day... One could pull passenger trains and the other construction runs. They could switch jobs at some point during the day and even double head a special at the end of the day. Of course many things would have to be worked out like crew availability, special safety/operating rules and having extra coal.
Joe Fox replied:
Maybe we could talk people into using only steam for one track laying weekend, so that lots of pictures can be taken of the steam engines and rebuilding the railroad. Even if it was only for a day, I think that would make for some great shots. Just an idea.
Joe
Mike Fox replied:
I think for the first year or so of operation, Jason is going to have to fight off crew to run the 9. Everyone is going to want a crack at her. So maybe having 2 crews in one day wont be so hard.
Mike
jockellis replied:
Any time you have two steam locomotives running, you have a better chance of getting a television station to do a piece on your weekend operation. That can be worth more in publicity than the boiler cost. But a lot of that will need to wait for more track, it seems to me.
It dawns on me that I have no idea what media outlets you have in that area. I saw in one post that you do a lot of advertising in various things, but know nothing of them as far as what they do. In Waycross, GA, the historical (actually hysterical) society got a Baldwin catalog mike. The daily newspaper would send me to photograph things going on out there at the drop of a hat.
Maybe you could teach a class on running steam locomotives to a group of reporters.
Jock Ellis
Steam replied:
I hope that once #9 has been rebuilt, that it will be at least once temporarily relettered and re-numbered for either or both, Sandy River RR #5 and SR&RL #6, much as was done when #10 became Pleasure Island & Western #5 in remembrance of her service on that line. After all, she is the last of the SR&RL's locomotives. Heck, you could even letter her for Kennebec Central for a weekend too, just to include every line she served on. What does everyone think?
Richard W. Symmes
ETSRRCo replied:
I think that is a great idea.
_________________
Eric Bolton
East Tigard & Southern Railroad Co 1889-1958
Steam replied:
My pet peeve: No newspaper story about steam locomotives (or any other type of train, for that matter) ever appears without the liberal use of the word "chug" (or chugged, chugs, chugging, etc.) throughout the copy. I've seen it used in stories describing everything from new Amtrak service, excursion trips, commuter service...you name it. They just have to incorporate the word "chug", which automatically makes railroading sound like some outmoded, old-fashioned form of transportation to readers. Anyone else notice this?
Richard W. Symmes
elecuyer replied:
And railroad preservationists are always "big boys playing with trains."
-Ed Lecuyer
(Who, admittedly, still has a small collection of Lionel in a box in my basement.)
James Patten replied:
We hope to be able to send #9 on a "grand tour" to Maine's two footers, depending on any agreements we reach with the locomotive's owner, Mr. King. Putting it on some track in Randolph would be nice, as well. Even if we are able to do that, occasionally lettering the engine for the other railroads would be a nice idea.
When we last lettered #10 for Pleasure Island, it was 2004 and the engine was just returning to service, so it made for some hectic work. Perhaps we should do it again next year for a few weeks, this time without worry of downtime (hopefully).
jockellis replied:
You might tell a reporter that they have a chance to be the first journalist in recent history to write a story without using chug or other offensive descriptions.
Also, I believe 3M makes the film that sign companies use for their Computer Aided Signage (CAS) equipment. I bet they have one line of films which are like the sticky notes they hold the patent to. Having signage made from easy to remove film would make such ventures much easier.
Jock Ellis
Cumming, GA
Georgia Association of Railroad Passengers
PS
I sent in my initial dues today. It sure is easy to get into your club.
Dave Buczkowski replied:
Jock;
Easy to get in, very difficult to get out... "Just when I thought I was out, they kept pulling me back in."
Dave
James Patten replied:
When I was planning #10's relettering, I got some magnetic sign backing and had the lettering professionally done. Unfortunately when I went to attach the lettering to the already cut sign things ended up crooked. Steve H. had some magic tape which he used to mask the borders of the sign, which helped some.
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MODERATORS NOTE:
#10's suspension movement....... has been converted from the pre-July 2008 WW&F Discussion Forum.
Some formatting may have been removed or modified from the original postings that appear quoted in this topic.
Information contained within this post may be superseded by more recent postings and conversations.
C130Engineer wrote:
Hey all, wish I could help with some work on the railway, but I'm here in Iraq for 4 more months so sorry. Keep up the good work.
Anyway, I had a question about the driver suspension movement on #10, how much does it really move? I'm working on a new locomotive design (steam) and I am not to sure how the suspension works on steam locos (I have seen many different designs). Also, how are the cylinder cocks operated?
Rob
petecosmob replied:
Hope you're enjoyinng the sand- er, I mean sun!
I was there this time last year. Got back in January!
Most steam locomotives have independently sprung drivers which utilize leaf-springs. Then, depending on the wheel arrangement, there are (usually) idler wheels fore and aft. The forward set are to assist in guidance around sharper curves while the rear set is primarily to support the firebox. (Earlier models with smaller fireboxes/boilers did not need the rear set.)
There are many volumes on locomotive design, but I will leave that to someone else here to provide. (http://images/smiles/icon_wink.gif)
Good luck! Come home soon, and in one piece!
gordon cook replied:
Hey all, wish I could help with some work on the railway, but I'm here in Iraq for 4 more months so sorry. Keep up the good work.
Anyway, I had a question about the driver suspension movement on #10, how much does it really move? I'm working on a new locomotive design (steam) and I am not to sure how the suspension works on steam locos (I have seen many different designs). Also, how are the cylinder cocks operated?
Rob
Hi Rob, I'll take a quick shot at your question, having worked on #10's suspension during rebuilding.
The very important function of springing all the wheels on a locomotive is to keep the weight equalized on each wheel. A properly sprung locomotive is marvelous thing!
For the drivers, this maximizes the adhesion; for any lead or trailing trucks, this distributes the weight and / or provides guidance through curves.
#10, having only 4 driving wheels, is the simplest arrangement, and each side is independent. Each leaf spring is centered over the drivers' axles. The front of the front spring is attached to the frame, the rear of that and the front of the rear spring are attached through a lever which is pivoted in the middle. The rear of the rear spring is again attached to the frame.
The middle of each leaf spring bears down on the driving box through a 'staple', or upside down 'U' shaped piece, which goes around the top of the frame so the legs sit on the box. So the weight of the engine is transferred from the frames, through the springs, and down onto the axles of the drivers.
If either driver tries to move up or down, that motion is relayed to the other driver on that side through the lever, which is called an equalizer bar. The boxes are not tight in the frames so that they can tolerate the tilting of the axles and not bind up.
There are much more elaborate arrangements that include side to side equalization and includes the pilot or trailing trucks.
The 10 is a true Forney, so that the rear of the engine's frame is supported by a 4-wheel truck. This has a swing rod type of suspension so that the trucks' frames and wheels can move from side to side. The bolster is suspended at each end from the truck side frames by hangers. This type of truck tends to center itself because as it is forced off center, the rods actually lift the bolster and the engine. This makes #10 track much better when backing up, because the truck acts like a 4 wheel lead truck. George Mansfield was right!
The suggestion of looking up a couple of engineering texts is a good one, because there is much to know about this so your engine will work properly. I have found a lot of interesting old engineering texts in Google books.
Cylinder cocks, at least on #10, are a simple valve that opens when a pin is pushed upwards. There's one under each end of the cylinder. There is a flat piece underneath them, that has 'ramps' cut into it, and that piece is captured in hangers so that when it moves from back to front, the ramps push the pins up and open the valves.
A simple set of levers from the cab moves the sliding piece forward and back. We have a foot operated bell crank so it's easy to operate while our hands are busy with throttle, brake, whistle, etc. The foot crank moves a reach rod, which is attached to a bell crank mounted in front of the cylinder saddle. That bell crank pivot is also a cross rod that provides the movement for the fireman's side. The The other end of the bell crank is positioned so that it moves the slider underneath the cylinders.
I hope this helps, and thanks for your service.
_________________
Gawdon
C130Engineer replied:
I have been studying allot of the narrow gauge loco designs thru photos and such and I notice that #10 (and #9) are "road" locos with suspension, and the "industrial" locos have nil for suspension, but that does make sense due to the different uses. I will be looking for plans for a 0-4-0ST Bagnall, and if anyone has any info on a bullhead boiler and how they are built.
I really like the thought of these smaller locomotives, because they are simple. Anyway, I'll keep digging around the net for more info. Thanks.
Rob
http://www.amertonrailway.co.uk/Dcp01092-600.jpg (http://www.amertonrailway.co.uk/Dcp01092-600.jpg)[/url]
Stephen Hussar replied:
Here's the image linked from Rob's posting.
(http://www.amertonrailway.co.uk/Dcp01092-600.jpg)
jockellis replied:
With the wheels at rest, the connecting rod(s) is both adjacent side and hypotenuse as it is the same length as the wheelbase. But if a bump compresses the spring on one axle, the wheels form a triangle with the wheelbase being the adjacent side and the connecting rod being the longer hypotenuse. How does that work?
Jock Ellis
Steve Smith replied:
Jock,
Interesting question!
I'm guessing you are wondering how, given a fixed distance maintained by the frame between two successive driving axles, and given a fixed center-to-center distance between the bearings of a side rod, a rise of one axle relative to another can be accommodated without violating the laws of geometry, i.e., stretching the hypotenuse, which is the side rod.
My hunch is that for normally encountered humps or bumps in the rail, any or all of three sources of play take care of it. The types of play that occur to me are 1) between side rod bearings and the crankpins, 2) between driving box bearings and the driving axle journals, and 3) between the driving boxes and the pockets in the frame.
Perhaps if a really bad bump is encountered, causing quite a difference in axle elevations of successive axles, a side rod might elongate a bit.
These are just hunches of mine. Perhaps an expert on the subject can enlighten us.
Steve Smith
Steve Smith replied:
Jock,
Further on the subject of stretching side rods: Germany at one time had narrow gage steam locomotives with a very interesting side rod linkage called the Klose System that enabled four-coupled locomotives to negotiate extremely sharp curves. If you're curious, log onto
http://www.dself.dsl.pipex.com/ (http://www.dself.dsl.pipex.com/)
then click on "Unusual Steam Locomotives"
then click on "Klose to The Edge"
The explanation of that maintenance man's nightmare was too brief for me to understand exactly how the system lengthened the side rods on the outside of the curve while shortening them on the inside of the curve, all while the locomotive was running, but apparently it did.
At risk of getting off topic, I recommend also that you click on "Diesel-Pneumatic Locomotives." Too bad that diesels didn't evolve like that design; there would have been something for both steam fans and diesel fans!
Steve Smith
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MODERATORS NOTE:
Nozzles in #10 has been converted from the pre-July 2008 WW&F Discussion Forum.
Some formatting may have been removed or modified from the original postings that appear quoted in this topic.
Information contained within this post may be superseded by more recent postings and conversations.
Josh Botting wrote:
Did the nozzels work better or worse?
Ray Davidowski replied:
And may I ask what/where these nozzles are?
Stephen Hussar replied:
Thanks, all!
Ray, hopefully Gordon or Jason will add to this, but I believe it was determined that the original nozzles were "mathematically" too small, perhaps creating some extra back pressure. By comparison here is a photo of the originals taken inside the spark arrestor with the engine under steam. (don't try this at home!)
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-8/342468/InsideSuperdraft.jpg)
Jason M Lamontagne replied:
Two sets of nozzles were tried- the second set worked very well. We suspect the first set will work better during summer months.
Nozzles are inthe smokebox and direct cylinder exhaust up the stack, creating draft on the fire. The harder the exhaust, the more draft. There is a balance between the level of this draft- increased with smaller nozzles, and cylinder back pressure (bad)- also increased with smaller nozzles.
I should mention Gordon, who did most of this work, and is great at adopting a number of small projects like this, thinking about them carefully, and following through with them.
see ya
Jason
Ray Davidowski replied:
Aah, so these nozzles are expanding the cylinder exhaust as it enters the smokebox. Thanks for the explanation! I have the basic idea of how steam locos work, but know nothing about the particular internal components. As an engineer I'm naturally curious about all this stuff, let alone thermodynamics and transport processes/fluids were my favorite classes. (http://images/smiles/icon_wink.gif) It's making sense now.
Now I'm on to the Eames vacuum brake system...I just got Vol 5 of "the book" last week, and it really is great to read all the details, which lead to more questions haha.
gordon cook replied:
Thanks Steve, for the documentation of our little 'experiment'.
The saga....
In one of those moments of reflection before dozing off, my research into the spark arrestor (or "SuperDraft"<span style="font-size: 9px; line-height: normal">tm
Anyway, Jason and I had an ongoing discussion about this, surmising that the 10's distinctive 'bark' is likely due to small nozzles, and as he said this results in a high velocity exhaust jet and lots of draft, but also high back pressure in the cylinders.
I made the leap that the high back pressure is why 10 seems to prefer the lshortest cutoff notch, and doesn't respond to when the Johnson bar is dropped down at anything over 5 mph.
So we agreed on modifying the original nozzles so that we could easily experiment with different diameters and tapers. For some reason, not obvious now, we decided to try this out before the Xmas trains.
Steve's picture shows the original try, which was about 63% bigger in area. After I installed them I quickly realized that they are further apart than they should be, and likely the steam jet would impinge slightly on the edge of the smoke stack. They really should cant in towards the middle of the stack. If any of the steam jet hits so it is deflected off into the smokebox, it will really kill the draft.
Anyway, after a late start on a 12 degree morning, off we went, and she was working really hard, with pressure dropping and the injector not able to keep up. And this was a light move! The sound had changed dramatically to a much softer chuff.
It was apparent that the snow on and between the rails and the below 20 degree weather was creating a lot more drag than I could imagine. Slip and catch, slip and catch, not much traction with the very cold rail and the snow.
Jason said 'Don't stop on Davis' and, of course, that's about when we did.
We weren't sure about the draft, she seemed to be steaming poorly, so after getting off Davis' crossing we decided to return and put the nozzles back to near their original configuration. With the material we had we got the diameter to about 30% bigger in area, with a similar internal shape.
Back out on the main, things seemed a little better, but still working very hard and using a lot of coal and water. Her chug was back to almost normal. You really had to stay ahead on the coal and water, just like a very heavy train.
We got up to Sheepscot Mills and figured it was good enough and headed back to get a train.
We picked up the two flatcars, and were going to take the caboose, but decided that with the late hour we would drop that so we'd be sure to make it to Alna Center. I laid in a LOT of coal, got the water up over half a glass, and so we had a pretty good start this time.
Off we went, more slip-catch, and Jason got us up to pretty good track speed (over 5!) but she was working about as hard on level track as she does up the grade to MP6 with 3-4 cars. I managed to keep enough coal in her but the fireman's injector couldn't keep up and we had to stop just past the trestle to catch up. We then proceeded up to AC, ran around and headed back. I took over on the way back and had to work steam all the way, downhill!! I mean, the train would slow down without power!
Conclusion: #10 is a baby compared to most engines and really doesn't have the power and punch to deal with the cold & snow. Otherwise none, really. The conditions were so different that any comparison with what we were used to was impossible. We'll continue the experiment next season.
The real value of this for me was in running a steam engine in very cold weather with lots of snow on the track. It was apparent early on that this was a real challenge for both machine and man. ( We were in the relatively warm cab, James was out on the flatcar as brakey, thank you James) Yes, I'm a wussy desk jockey, and not 20 something anymore, but when you can't oil around because the oil is like mud, and the first thing is the water glass drain freezes, and then the brake line, and the snow makes the brakes pretty useless, and you're using twice as much coal and water just to move the engine around..... well, I am glad I got a chance to experience it. We've all read about winter railroading in Maine and this made those stories very real to me.
And much happier that I don't have to do that every day!
_________________
Gawdon
Jason M Lamontagne replied:
Well said by Gordon, especially the thanks to James and winter railroading talk- imagine dealing with 10 foot drifts in sub zero weather on a two foot gauge line-
see ya
Jason
Steam replied:
I remember the late "Carl" Purinton (founder of the Brotherhood of Live Steamers in America in 1932) talking about the steam blast from the exhaust nozzle having to fill the "petticoat pipe" which was a funnel shaped device on the bottom of the smoke stack (inside the smokebox) at just the right angle in order to create a proper "vacuum" in the smokebox. This was relative to live steam locomotives that he built. He was also a fireman on the B&M in the 1930s and 40s. He said that if the distance from the top of the exhaust nozzle to the bottom of the petticoat pipe was off, then the engine would steam poorly. How does that relate to the experience with #10 which you just related?
Richard Symmes
tomc replied:
That is true about the pettycoat. There is a formula for the stack lenght, the pettycoat lenght and where the nozzel SB below it. I think the nozzels could be raised to improve draft and maybe angled to hit the pipe better.
Tom C.
_________________
Later;
tom_srclry_com
elecuyer replied:
This topic was split from
"Pictures from yesterday..."
http://www.setbb.com/wwfmuseum/viewtopic.php?t=457 (http://www.setbb.com/wwfmuseum/viewtopic.php?t=457)
For reference, here are the new nozzles, copied from Steve's original post:
Photo of new nozzles inside spark arrestor.
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-8/342468/newnozzles.jpg)
Jason M Lamontagne replied:
This is one of the problems that Gordon and I suspect... No 10 came with no petticoat and still does not have one.
There are actually two similarly shaped "cones" typically inside of a smokebox- both are parabolic (theoretically) in shape, and serve to combine the expanding steam jet with the accelerating mass of gas as it aims up the stack, just like a combining tube in an injector. The petticoat, as mentioned, is usually vertically adjustable and ends before the bottom of the stack- i.e. there is space above it to collect more gas. The other is the stack flare, which is exactly the same thing except it is attached to the underside of the stack and has no opening above it.
In our circumstance, No 10 does not have the space for both; with the spark arrestor designed by Gordon after a 1945 design dubbed "superdraft", there is a straight extension of the stack to connect it with the top plate of the arrestor. As such, there is only about 15" remaining of vertical space to put anything. We do want to do something though.
Incidentally we designed the arrestor with 3 vertical threaded rods, on which can be mounted a vertically adjustable petticoat. One advantage of the "superdraft" concept though is that it naturally smooths out the draft distribution in the smokebox (and by extension the firebox). This is the chief advantage of an adjustable petticoat. Because of this we may just install a fixed stack flare.
Seperately speaking, our spark arrestor is wonderful; it allows the complete gutting of the smokebox, for access to punch tubes, play with nozzles, or what have you, in 10 minutes (with a hot engine) instead of 1/2 a day (engine must be cold) as was the case with the old "master mechanic's standard" front end.
Hope this isn't too much- but it's fun to share some of the inner workings of our over-active though simplistic shop minds.
see ya
Jason
gordon cook replied:
The evidence from soot build up on the inside of the spark arrestor is that with the small original nozzles there is slight impingement of the exhaust jets on the edges of the stack extension.
With large nozzles this very well would be worse, but the original nozzles had a sharp edge on the top which would tend to spread the jet out faster than a properly tapered and flared edge.
So I hoped that the large nozzles that we originally tried might work out.
From the exhaust sound the back pressure was likely lower, but we couldn't tell if the draft was affected because of the extreme weather which affects everything from injector efficiency to thermal loss in the cylinders.
A petticoat, IMHO, might help the impingement with the large nozzles, but after thinking about it if the jet hits the walls of the stack too soon it will be lower velocity than it might otherwise be due to the drag, and that part of the jet will not be available to move the air in the smokebox along either.
So I believe the right thing to do is cant the nozzles toward the center so they converge a short distance up from the stack bottom and play with nozzle diameter and shape to optimize velocity verses back pressure.
And experiment in the warm, sunny weather! (http://images/smiles/icon_cool.gif)
_________________
Gawdon
James Patten replied:
One of Frank's videos was taken from the cab with the first set of new nozzles. Even though the sound is muffled a bit, I can tell the chuff is softer but there's another noise around the chuffs that sounds like the draft wasn't working very well.
gordon cook replied:
Frank's video's really illustrate the fun we had.
Note how the drivers slip and then catch, and as James observed the different exhaust sound from the first (cab) video, which was taken on the first run up the line, from the last three, after we changed the nozzles back to a smaller diameter.
I do agree with Jason that the petticoat likely helps direct and smooth the flow of gases into the stack, increasing efficiency. I have read that they are supposed to help equalize the draft across the tubes, but I'm not convinced that is actually true, and the Lempor doesn't have a traditional petticoat.
Just to make sure your heads are spinning after all the technical musings, all of this theory doesn't take into account the fact that the everything going on is very dynamic. In other words, the steam flow and pressure in the front end is wildly varying as the exhaust pulses exit the cylinders and flow up the stack, so assumptions based on a steady flow could be far from what is really happening. (http://images/smiles/icon_rolleyes.gif)
_________________
Gawdon
Wayne Laepple replied:
Trying to dazzle us with techno-speak, are you?
You guys are having way too much fun!
John McNamara replied:
You guys are having way too much fun!
...and they still haven't told us where the holder for the Lionel smoke pellets is. (http://images/smiles/icon_wink.gif)
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MODERATORS NOTE:
Builders photo of WW&F 10? has been converted from the pre-July 2008 WW&F Discussion Forum.
Some formatting may have been removed or modified from the original postings that appear quoted in this topic.
Information contained within this post may be superseded by more recent postings and conversations.
Scot Lawrence wrote:
Maybe this is already well-known, but I have never seen it mentioned anywhere on-line..
I think I might have found the builders photo for number 10!
it is here:
http://www.ironhorse129.com/Prototype/SteamClass2004/Vulcan/vulcan_574.jpg (http://www.ironhorse129.com/Prototype/SteamClass2004/Vulcan/vulcan_574.jpg)
It has been on this site:
http://www.ironhorse129.com/Prototype/SteamClass2004/HomePage.htm (http://www.ironhorse129.com/Prototype/SteamClass2004/HomePage.htm)
for a few years.
"Underwood, Short & Reeves" and "Bellview Plantation" match number 10's history..and all loco details seem to match the current number 10..
the only question is, how many forneys did Vulcan build for them?
just one? or several?
since there is no road number on the unit, its hard to say with 100% confidance this is in fact number 10...unless it is known that US&R-Bellview only had one Vulcan of this type..in which case, it would have to be number 10!
anyone have an Underwood/Bellview roster or other info?
thanks,
Scot
Stephen Hussar replied:
I think it's pretty clear cut that the locomotive in the photo is WW&F No 10, Vulcan Construction No 574. Doesn't RRMPA maintain the Vulcan archive? Probably a safe bet that the original glass plates are etched with identification marks. However, I vaguely recall being told that No 10 did have a sister somewhere...in Canada?
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-8/342468/No10buildersplate.jpg)
Joe Fox replied:
I believe that is the photo that is in the machine shop. I could be wrong, but it look just like it. The photo is right beside the entrance way to the boiler room.
Joe
James Patten replied:
You can find the builder's photo of #10 at the WW&F website. Just go to About Us -> Equipment -> 10, and scroll down a bit and you'll find it.
Yes, you did find the builder's photo. RRMPA is where we got the photo from.
I don't know if #10 has a sister in Canada. You may have heard that #9 has a sister in Canada, supposedly the only other remaining Portland Co built locomotive.
Scot Lawrence replied:
thanks! (http://images/smiles/icon_smile.gif)
good to know that really is number 10's photo!
Scot
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How often is #10 taken down for a washout, inspection and lube?
Rob
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We keep a careful record of service days and do a boiler wash, staybolt inspection, and water level indicator passage check no more than every 31 days. It actually usually ends up at 30 days- just before the picnic. It also happens following Christmas trains- so it happens twice a year.
Nearly all lubrication points are oil, and are on a daily cycle. Every now and again we drop the oil cellars to check the pads. Usually take up on drive box wedges once a year and rod wedges about twice a year.
Jason
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#10's Picture on NERAIL today, back during the days at Edaville and before Pleasure Island.
http://photos.nerail.org/showpic/?2010022222360312416.jpg (http://photos.nerail.org/showpic/?2010022222360312416.jpg)
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It looks like the photo was taken before she received the new boiler. Note the extra pipe above the hand rail on top of the boiler on the engineman's side.
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Seeing that she's sitting on "snap track" I wonder if that photo was taken before she went on her diet to slim down from 30 to 24 inch gauge.
Looks like the location is right in front of the Edaville shop.
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What is the difference in "engineer" and "engineman"? When I used to receive the Seaboard Coastline employee magazine, it would mention those two designations in the obituaries. I'm guessing that it has something to do with union designations.
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I would guess that an "engineman" is a fireman.
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Engineer and Engineman are interchangable terms. Many railroads chose to all their engine crew "engineman" because of the fact that they were not engineers in the same sense that a mechanical engineer or electrical engineer is, as they "design" things....not operate them. As far as Union designations go...it is "The Brotherhood of Locomotive Engineers" but the firemen's union was the "Brotherhood of Locomotive Firemen and Enginemen." Most railroads required that you belong to a union, national in scope....but they did not tell you "which" union you must belong to. The BLE had members who were both firemen and engineers, and just considered firemen to be in the same craft, just not yet promoted to engineer. The Bof LFE also had members in both positions, they just called engineers enginemen. A term probably frowned upon by the female engineers of today.
Keith
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Bill, I think you're right. In reviewing the photo again, the temporary track looks like it could be 30" gauge. Also, the crank pins don't look as long as they are now so the photo could show the locomotive prior to re-gauging. If true, and if the engine still has the original boiler the photo was probably taken shortly after the Vulcan arrived at Edaville.
Jock, My use of the term "engineman" is from habit. It stems from having family members who worked for the Pennsylvania RR where the engineer was known as the engineman.
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Stewart,
The Lehigh Valley was the same, calling them enginemen. And the LV also had "cabin cars" not cabooses too. But then the LVRR was owned by the PRR, hence the same terminology.
Keith
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I was wondering if it was still 30" gauge, too. Edaville cut and welded in a 'kink' in the mainrods to accommodate the 3" difference on each side. When we rebuilt her, Jason chose to scrap those and use a longer pin with new, straight rods.
I can't see from that picture if the rods have that modification, maybe someone else can chime in. Sure looks like it hasn't been "narrowed" yet, though.
It looks like that pipe would be the steam to the cylinders, but that would be an odd way to do it?
And who is that young girl in the cab??
While poking around for pictures of #5/10, I found this video which has some of the footage used in the
latest DVD from Restoration Stories on the SR&RL. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L4HVHHcZtbA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L4HVHHcZtbA)
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Gordon, the rods sure look straight to me. And they still have the original rods oilers on the bearings. Too bad those disappeared before the 10 arrived here in Maine
Keith
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I'm curious. What is the new drafting arrangement on #10 and how did she do?
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We added a stack extension including a bell mouth flare, angled the nozzles toward the stack choke center and installed new nozzle inserts that converge slightly then diverge gently, simulating an injector or ejector steam nozzle.
The testing was not as comprehensive as we had hoped but it did well enough that we will use all the modifications for Victorian Christmas.
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The crew swapping out exhaust nozzles.
(http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s5/bbarry74/DSC_1002.jpg)
The new stack extension. The two curved pipes are the wishbone pipes coming out of the dry pipe behind the stack extension and feed the valve chests. The exhaust nozzles are next to each other in the center. Blower piping comes into the smokebox closest to the camera. The random copper tube is a temporary vacuum probe to measure differences in the drafting arrangements. Smokebox netting still has to be added. Please ignore the melted turnbuckles, I put aluminum bodied ones in by mistake.
(http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s5/bbarry74/DSC_0998-2.jpg)
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Looks like worthwhile improvements. I take it there was not a stack extension, previously. I would think the new arrangement should improve economy as well as increase boiler output. I've always thought that #10 was an ideally sized locomotive for the typical needs of the W.W.&F. You guys do great work!
John
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New stack extension fitted in place with the new blower nozzle and cinder netting.
(http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s5/bbarry74/DSC_0238-2.jpg)
(http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s5/bbarry74/DSC_0236.jpg)
(http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s5/bbarry74/DSC_0243-1.jpg)
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I follow several railroad preservation sites around the globe, and I cannot stop wondering about the dependability of this great little locomotive. It really seems to be well constructed, well serviced and cared for. You can read these stories about locomotives: "year 1, fresh overhauled, the engine X hits the rails. Withdrawn after two weeks for steam leaks, loose tires etc. Year two; firebox in need of big overhaul. Later major issues with wheel bearings. Year three, cylinder casting failed, frame cracked etc..." No. 10 just keeps going. Congrats for an engine well kept!
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"There is never enough time to do it right but there is always time to do it over."
Unknown author
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My only concern with the new design is fire dangers. Other than that, it looks very well done. Any thoughts on maybe designing a deflector plate to deflect the cinders and hot ash?
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My only concern with the new design is fire dangers. Other than that, it looks very well done. Any thoughts on maybe designing a deflector plate to deflect the cinders and hot ash?
I think the screen device in the lowermost picture is a temporary way to address that concern. Jason may comment further about future plans.
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It looks to me as though any cinder or ash material would have to go through the screen, as designed. The blast pipe from the cylinder exhaust would draw anything from the flues through the screen, effectively braking up any large cinders. Looks good to me!
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90% of the flow (hence, cinders also) goes to the sides and front of the basket. During Christmas trains very little could be seen out the stack- no more than prior. At clean up time- the cinder pile was large and right where desired- up against the front. Deflector plates are overrated. And they're draft killers.
See ya
Jason
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Another view of No 10's front end...
(https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8823/17086606442_074244b278_b.jpg)
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Do the steam inlet pipes affect the draft/flow through some of the flues?
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Looks like the modifications are holding up well in service!
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No. 10 got new tank truck springs on Friday.
New springs up on saw horse old springs are on the floor.
(http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s5/bbarry74/DSC_1005.jpg)
Truck with old springs removed.
(http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s5/bbarry74/IMG_0002.jpg)
New springs installed in truck.
(http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s5/bbarry74/IMG_0015.jpg)
(http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s5/bbarry74/IMG_0012.jpg)
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How are the pillow blocks lubricated? I see holes, but no grease fittings.
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Oil can with a long spout.
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How are the pillow blocks lubricated? I see holes, but no grease fittings.
With difficulty, especially for those with bad knees!
Brendan nailed it, we have a pump oiler with a curved spout since you have to reach up under the tank and gravity wouldn't do it. The bottom links get squirted at.
Looking forward to seeing how the new springs affect the tracking, ride, and level.
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Despite lack of a spreading chestnut tree, there was activity today at the Museum’s smithy near the door to the Bay 4 machine shop. The task was to lengthen the swing links on the rear truck of engine No. 10. I believe--please correct me if I’m wrong—that the lengthening is part of a fix Jason doped out to compensate for the unwanted elevation of No. 10’s hind end caused by recently received new leaf springs for the rear truck. (The springs are shown in picture No. 1 of Brendan’s April 17th post.)
Phil Goodwin (hand on the vise) did the early cranking of the blower to get the fire going in the morning. Now Hansel Fardon is having a go at it. When revved up the blower makes an interesting up-and-down moaning sound. (At least I THINK it was the blower, not a volunteer.) A swing link is buried in the coals, and Eric Schade and J.B. Smith are waiting for it to heat up.
(http://i1059.photobucket.com/albums/t437/StevenSmith3/Forging%20Truck%20Swing%20Links/IMG_2558_zpsyuicmmbr.jpg) (http://s1059.photobucket.com/user/StevenSmith3/media/Forging%20Truck%20Swing%20Links/IMG_2558_zpsyuicmmbr.jpg.html)
Eric holds a swing link on the anvil while J.B. wields the hammer. I would think that Eric would receive an awful jar if J.B. didn’t hit the part of the link directly over the anvil, but there was nary a flinch nor an “OUCH!” so I guess J.B aimed well. Either that or Eric is really tough!
(http://i1059.photobucket.com/albums/t437/StevenSmith3/Forging%20Truck%20Swing%20Links/IMG_2560_zpsgttobzu1.jpg) (http://s1059.photobucket.com/user/StevenSmith3/media/Forging%20Truck%20Swing%20Links/IMG_2560_zpsgttobzu1.jpg.html)
Pins from the truck were carefully positioned and clamped to the grating to form a gauge. Eric and J.B. are preparing to try a swing link on the gauge, and it looks as though they’ll need to do some more forging before that one has the correct length.
(http://i1059.photobucket.com/albums/t437/StevenSmith3/Forging%20Truck%20Swing%20Links/IMG_2563_zpslszhektl.jpg) (http://s1059.photobucket.com/user/StevenSmith3/media/Forging%20Truck%20Swing%20Links/IMG_2563_zpslszhektl.jpg.html)
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My thanks to Ed Lecuyer for putting my pictures back into the April 22nd post about lengthening links by forging. The pictures were in that post right after I made it in late evening of April 22nd, but were gone when I looked this morning, replaced by boxes with "Photo not found." Gremlins are about, I guess.
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10 is being stripped down for boiler inspection.
(http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s5/bbarry74/bbarry74006/IMG_3384.jpg)
(http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s5/bbarry74/bbarry74006/IMG_3387.jpg)
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10 stripped down and spotted in bay 1 to remove the boiler for repairs.
(http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s5/bbarry74/bbarry74007/IMG_3472.jpg)
(http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s5/bbarry74/bbarry74007/IMG_3464.jpg)
Cab was pulled using the overhead cranes in bay 2.
(http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s5/bbarry74/bbarry74007/IMG_3491.jpg)
(http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s5/bbarry74/bbarry74007/IMG_3494.jpg)
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Need the platform back that #9s cab sat on.
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Brandon,
Does your picture comment 'remove the boiler for repairs' mean that we know which way we are going to proceed to repair the stay bolts? Or, does that mean we are going to proceed with more testing of repair methods and information gathering?
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Bill, I was told the boiler needed to be removed for either.
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(http://i1132.photobucket.com/albums/m573/miketrainnut/Mobile%20Uploads/0122160856a_zpsqyk8ndor.jpg)
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The boiler was lifted off in bay 1 today and moved over to the machine shop. One of the spare passenger trucks was used as a shop truck for the boiler.
(http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s5/bbarry74/bbarry74007/IMG_3566.jpg)
(http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s5/bbarry74/bbarry74007/IMG_3573.jpg)
(http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s5/bbarry74/bbarry74007/IMG_3577.jpg)
(http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s5/bbarry74/bbarry74007/IMG_3581.jpg)
(http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s5/bbarry74/bbarry74007/IMG_3590.jpg)
(http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s5/bbarry74/bbarry74007/IMG_3591.jpg)
(http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s5/bbarry74/bbarry74007/IMG_3595.jpg)
(http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s5/bbarry74/bbarry74007/IMG_3601.jpg)
(http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s5/bbarry74/bbarry74007/IMG_3609.jpg)
(http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s5/bbarry74/bbarry74007/IMG_3613.jpg)
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It's great to see the progress.
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Great pic sequence.
Two questions...
<how did you get the passenger truck on the south end of bay 1?
<why was the caboose involved?
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The truck was brought over to bay one last week when we were moving ten over from bay two. We had to park the truck outside in front of bay one on some 2x6's until we needed it today. Bay one was full with 52, the caboose and 10 in that order. The caboose was involved because it was already coupled to 52 for weekend work train service.
(http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s5/bbarry74/bbarry74007/IMG_3488.jpg)
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Gotcha. Thanks.
Thought maybe the caboose was a spacer, like how they load/unload carfloats .
And it looks like Mr. Snow is taking it easy over Sheepscot, the Big Storm missed youze guys. :D
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Maybe now is a good chance to get some pictures of No. 10's Stevenson valve gear.
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Maybe now is a good chance to get some pictures of No. 10's Stevenson valve gear.
I know I am a nit picker.....but I think you will find it is Stephenson valve gear.
Keith
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Keith should know, he rebuilt the eccentric straps for the last overhaul, and they have
served very well.
I am going to guess that Jason intends to install a drip oiler for the straps on 10. They are
one of the more difficult places to get to.
It shouldn't be too difficult to copy the one in 9.
Yes, I'll volunteer...
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Keith should know, he rebuilt the eccentric straps for the last overhaul, and they have
served very well.
I am going to guess that Jason intends to install a drip oiler for the straps on 10. They are
one of the more difficult places to get to.
It shouldn't be too difficult to copy the one in 9.
Yes, I'll volunteer...
Actually getting the lost motion out of the expansion links was a bigger job.
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There is little lost motion between the link blocks and the links. That was repaired in 2003- I thought by Keith. My valve gear concerns are:
1. Side play between eccentrics and their straps
2. Right side lifting link (We fixed the left a few years ago).
3. Valve seats.
4. Possibly make a stiffer reverser reach rod- as this one has a substantial lateral offset from the regauging. It flexes substantially.
Keith, interested in part??
See ya
Jason
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There is little lost motion between the link blocks and the links. That was repaired in 2003- I thought by Keith. My valve gear concerns are:
1. Side play between eccentrics and their straps
2. Right side lifting link (We fixed the left a few years ago).
3. Valve seats.
4. Possibly make a stiffer reverser reach rod- as this one has a substantial lateral offset from the regauging. It flexes substantially.
Keith, interested in part??
See ya
Jason
Jason I took out all of the lost motion in the expansion links when I had the valve gear here. It was a lot more work than fixing the broken eccentric strap with a patch plate.
I'm sure we can work something out....
Keith
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Yes, that's my recollection as well. That's why the link/link block play is still acceptable.
Fixing strap side play will take some brainstorming. 1/4" plus...
See ya
Jason
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Ok, to catch everyone up:
No 10's last major boiler evaluation was 15 years ago. While we're aren't required to comply with FRA rules, we treat them as an industry standard and decided to strip 10 down this off season for this purpose.
In short, we have found evidence of a defect in the stay welds which stems from the boiler's manufacture. The defect renders the boiler unserviceable until repaired or replaced. Upon examining the rest of the boiler, we believe a repair is both feasible and worthwhile.
We have begun the process of repairing the boiler, and intend to have no 10 back in service as soon as possible.
This development has caused us to rework the operating plan for no 9 this spring. Please see that thread separately.
Jason
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Keith, I apologize for misspelling the name of the valve gear. I guess misspelling that one is an occupational hazard for a person named Steve.
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Keith, I guess we can all be glad I didn't call it Steve and son valve gear! ;D
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(http://i1132.photobucket.com/albums/m573/miketrainnut/Mobile%20Uploads/0213161353_zps9aqf7zcv.jpg)
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My understanding is that the design of a new all steel welded boiler for No. 10 is well advanced. It seems appropriate, therefore, to ask whether the design will incorporate welded support brackets at the firebox so that there will be no need to resort to a retrofit arrangement such as that employed for No. 9? Such welded bracketry would need to be applied early enough to be included in the heat treatment of the outer shell of the boiler.
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No 10, as a Vulcan, utilizes a completely different arrangement than Portland Company built no 9. No 10's mud ring is several inches above the frame, which goes through the ashpan. As such there's no need for a wrap around casting and the expansion joint is easy (albeit hot).
We are very pleased that the new boiler, along with that for 11, are nearly entirely riveted. This construction is a far better representation of the technology available when our railroad ran originally. The approach also allows the use of several techniques which greatly reduce the time required to assemble the boiler.
The newest edition of the code has reduced post weld heat treat requirements; as such even if the new boiler were to be welded it wouldn't require heat treat.
Regards,
Jason
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Good information.
Thanks.
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That explains matters very well, thank you Jason.
I had understood that the new boiler for No. 10 would be welded but if both boilers are to be of riveted construction, that will be wonderful. A very big part of preservation is the maintenance of skills. Authenticity is the ultimate justification for the existence of the museum (as I am sure all members know). Observant visitors should learn the truth!
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Plans for no. 10's new boiler.
(http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s5/bbarry74/bbarry74008/IMG_5930.jpg)
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Jan 6, 2017. Syracuse, NY.
#10's new smokebox, firebox, and wrapper:
(http://www.wwfry.org/pics/for_forum/No10SmokeboxFireboxWrapper_1-6-17.jpg)
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Firebox sheets for 10's boiler.
(http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s5/bbarry74/wws17/DSC_0320.jpg)
10's backhead in the flanging machine.
(http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s5/bbarry74/wws17/DSC_0021.jpg)
10's boiler barrel being welded at Boothbay. I stole the picture off the 21 Campaign page on Facebook.
(http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s5/bbarry74/bbarry74004/10sbarl.jpg)
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Superb work!
How much more is to be done at Boothbay before boiler/loco re-assembly starts at Sheepscot?
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Rick and Alan flanging 10's front tube sheet today.
(http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s5/bbarry74/bbarry74010/IMG_1096.jpg)
(http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s5/bbarry74/bbarry74010/IMG_1103.jpg)
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Any news and photos of the boiler work on #10?
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Not with day temperatures in the single digits and low teens (Fahrenheit). Metal gets brittle when it's very cold, and the flanger is in an unheated area of the shop.
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I'm with Chuck -- is there a brief summary of the overall status of #10. Is the flanger the critical step? Is there a Plan B if it doesn't work? What about the rest of the 21 campaign? Has the Bridge project taken temporary precedence? Just askin', that's all...
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Thanks for asking for the update. We have been remiss in publicizing news on the boiler work.
In short, the bridge has left us with little time to work on 10’s boiler. The current step is flanging the back head. This has proven challenging as a lot of material must be compressed in an exacting manner. The machine has plenty of power- however as we have proceeded we’ve identified a series of special jigs we’ve had to fabricate in order to force the material to take the desired shape.
The typical routine is that about once per month (or less, w Victorian Christmas in December), we get a day or so where weather, tractor availability, and other projects allows us to focus. We flange, make some progress, note a detail which requires attention (usually a modification to our toggle follower jig), and rather than rush it and hurt the machine or workpiece, we set it aside.
The back head is near completion, though I want it to be at least 25 degrees before working on it, along with all the other stars being in line.
After the back head, it’s the throat sheet. We also plan to begin fitting up the inner firebox later this winter. We have maintained tight communication and oversight from BRV every step of the way. We still intend to hit 10’s boiler hard in 2018, even with the Mountain work ahead.
I have been worried about the lack of member and public information releases- I do sincerely apologize.
Happy New Year,
Jason
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I have been worried about the lack of member and public information releases- I do sincerely apologize.
Happy New Year,
Jason
Do I hear the possibility of a WW&F Newsletter article for the January/February issue now in preparation? ;D ;D ;D
-John M
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Hi,
Happy to get news of #10 boiler and learn that everything is A-OK. Working in such temps isn't a bed of roses neither for men nor metal.
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Jason, thanks so much for taking the time and effort to respond to this on New Year's Eve. Clearly it's important to keep our many message streams going, and it's easy to lose track of them. My wish is that we will have two steam locos working on 2018 Victorian Christmas. If that's a stretch, it's at least hope/goal.
Happy New Year WW&F!
Bob
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Good news Jason.
My memory fell off. Who is BRV?
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Boothbay Railroad Village
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BRV is 16 miles from WW&F.
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BRV has the certified boiler welding inspector.
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Thanks, guys.
Hope tree clearing goes well.
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I should clear up some misunderstandings.
Boothbay Railway Village (BRV) is an ASME accredited power boiler construction shop. They are not a certified boiler welding inspection service.
BRV is this actual builder of the boilers for our locomotives 10 and 11. Through a cooperative agreement between Boothbay Railway and the WW&F Railway, Boothbay Railway is allowing us to provide nearly all of the labor for this work, under their supervision, which comes through close communication between their Shop Superintendent and myself, as well as regular (as the work warrants) visits by him. Some work must be done directly by BRV in their shop. Our work site is an “off site job location” for BRV. We plan to put up signage to that effect to clarify that point.
We owe a tremendous debt of gratitude to BRV for allowing this arrangement. The commercial value of these two riveted boilers from an ASME shop would likely exceed $250,000. We hope to reciprocate their generosity by making some of our specialized equipment available to them when the need arises.
Thank you,
Jason
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Bernie has been hard at it making another pattern. This one is the Follow Block for the Saddle Shim.
(http://i1132.photobucket.com/albums/m573/miketrainnut/100_1135_zpsjw1jijfr.jpg)
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The photo Mike posted is the "follow block" used in the casting process. It will be used to support the shim pattern. It will also be used to help assemble the shim pattern. When a pattern is curved and does not have a flat surface to rest on the follow board, a follow block is used in the initial ramming stage. The shim pattern sits in the follow block during this stage and when the flask is turned over to ram the second half, the follow block is removed and the second half is rammed up. Shortly I will show the shim pattern fully assembled.
The new boiler for #10 is a slightly larger diameter than the old one so the saddle shim has two curved surfaces--a smaller radius to rest on the saddle and a larger radius for the smoke box to rest on.
Mike, thanx for posting this as I still haven't learned to post photos.
Bernie
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Really enjoy seeing fine craftmanship used to scratch-build elements, tools to rebuild an historic, useful machine like No. Ten.
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Bernie, can any parts of this pattern be used for #11 castings? Can't wait to see the finished product - another work of art..
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No problem Bernie. I enjoy seeing your fine work, and I know others do too.
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Impressive work, Bernie.
Jeff S.
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John,
This part is strictly for #10. It is a one-off and the pattern will only be used only once. #11 will not need this part as the saddle will be properly contoured to fit #11's smoke box. This making of a pattern for one casting is typical for steam locomotive repair. The part is important for the repair but only one is needed to keep the choo-choo running. I have made several patterns and in the middle of making clam shell door patterns for CNJ 113 which will only be used once.
This kind of project would be a good candidate for the 3D sand printing process discussed in earlier posts. Since I don't do CAD, I still do things the olde way.
Bernie
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Beautiful work Bernie! Thanks to you and Mike for sharing this progress!
Steve
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DITTO what Steve P said!
SH
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Does anyone at this point have an idea when the No 10 will go back into service?
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No particular date, but we are steadily working on the boiler parts. The Mountain Extension is consuming a lot of time, but operationally it'd be great to have 10 back, and we haven't forgotten our 21 Campaign supporters, so we forge ahead on all counts. Just don't dare give dates with so many irons in the fire...
see ya
Jason
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Setting dates for a restoration can be a dangerous thing. Ask the Western Maryland Scenic Railway about their ex-C&O 1309 rebuild.
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Trying to shape the backhead has been slow due to the size of the boiler and the need to compress the steel as it bends. This has required a lot of figuring and tooling modification. This learning curve will make #11 go a lot earier and quicker.
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As supporters of both WWFRy and WMSR, we were concerned about whether the resources i.e. money in particular, would be difficult to raise in the initial time frames for the WMSR 1309. AS far as I currently know they still need around $500K to finish the job. We have seen the engine under cover at the B & O museum in Baltimore. It is an impressive freight engine. We are looking forward to its completion. Barb & Gary Kraske
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I need to clarify my passing reference to the Mountain Extension above. The work on the Mountain Extension has taken days away from working on 10, specifically developing the jigs we need to properly produce smooth deep flanges, but I should have been explicit: that’s not an excuse or assignment of blame. The Mountain Extension was a decided shift in priorities, of which I am fully behind, because of organizational developments which we didn’t expect.
The Mountain Extension, which began when we were donated the Moose Brook Bridge, developed a definite, hard timeline after we researched the permits required to install it. In short, the permit which includes the bridge installation is actually a permit to rebuild the railroad. It expires in 2 years. We wanted to settle the permitting issues before getting too far along with the bridge rebuild. Therefore, the permitting process began in July, gave us enough coincidence to proceed through the fall, and culminated with the permit approval in December.
Because the bridge project also includes track construction, and the permits for the intervening right of way also include track construction, we decided to package and brand the entire thing. This was reinforced by the desire to hold back on passenger ops until they could operate all the way down and have a safe landing. Combine that with how fabulously this stretch will showcase the narrow gauge theory, how beautiful it is, and our rising focus on transportation to destinations (instead of just a train ride), all result in the Mountain Extension is one of the best developments our Museum has ever undertaken. Honest to goodness I am smitten with the prospect of it. I hope my enthusiasm for it has been apparent.
In any event, we forge ahead with 10, and then 11, as both will be vital pieces of the bigger picture we are trying to paint. We need 10 yesterday; writing op plans for big events around 2 locomotives is difficult, due to the inability to runaround at Sheepscot while at the platform (that’s why we power swap). And honestly- 10 does such a superior job at representing the Maine two footers than 52 (10’s easier on track too).
I believe we’re going to find the Mountain a touch un-kind to 10, and the potential utility of no 11 will become apparent.
Ok, that was too long, I suppose, but my earlier post may have come across as negative. If so, I apologize.
See ya
Jason
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Funds are inhand to finish the boiler work on #10, and additional money (separate from the 21 campaign) has been set aside for it's reassembly, and some additional work.
#11s boiler is 1/2 to 2/3 funded, through the 21 camaign effort, which funded #10s boiler first.
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The opportunity to obtain and install the Moose-Trout Brook Bridge was a boon to our plan to extend our main line down the mountain. Our BOD was wise to re-prioritize our plans to take advantage of this gift from our New Hampshire friends and the NPS. This gift will prove, in the long run, to be a cost effective solution to our crossing Trout Brook.
The opportunity came with a huge set of challenges in planning, funding, accelerated work on the mountain, reorganizing other activities. And we are rising to the occasion. Though a few of our current projects, like 10, 11, 67, the round house, etc., will take a little longer to complete, they too will be achieved.
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Bernie's pattern for the smoke box shim.
(http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s5/bbarry74/bbarry74012/100_1143.jpg)
This is the follow block that goes with the shim pattern that was posted earlier.
(http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s5/bbarry74/E1BC00A7-074F-4433-825D-64DBBCAA101E.jpeg)
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Thanx Brendan (and Jason and Mike) for posting and reposting these photos. The shim pattern has to be accurate, and to achieve that I will bring it up during the Spring Work Weekend and actually fit it over the cylinders and modify it on the spot if it needs it. I will then modify the follow block to the point where it can be used. Working on curved patterns can be difficult. I have been working over 1 1/2 years on clamshell door patterns for CNJ 113 (with delays for other projects) where nothing is flat. At times, things don't work out and have to be junked and started over. I am currently working on the core boxes and have wasted much time trying to figure them out.
Bernie
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Bernie
Don't junk it -- give it a coat of varnish and hang it on the wall and call it
what it is -- a work of art!
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Fitting 10's firebox parts to the mud ring.
(http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s5/bbarry74/bbarry74012/IMG_3065.jpg)
(http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s5/bbarry74/bbarry74012/IMG_3063.jpg)
(http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s5/bbarry74/bbarry74012/IMG_3060.jpg)
(http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s5/bbarry74/bbarry74012/10e.jpg)
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Great work guys! Is welding next for the firebox? What are the steps to get the boiler through hydrostatic test?
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Guys,
This is impressive. I know others have done this, but just thinking about the machinery that had to be designed, tooling created, skills learned, and then to bend those thick pieces of steel without warping or wrinkling, cracking or splitting.
My head hurts just thinking about it. It is like when it was necessary to quarter the drive wheels on 9. A problem was discovered, a solution was conceived, a complicated tool was designed and constructed, and then the problem was solved.
I think our Museum crew can do anything they put their many minds and talents to.
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I'm really in awe of your know- how and skill.
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Fantastic work!
BTW, whose portrait is on the backhead :o???
Jeff S.
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I'll second that question! ;)
I'm also curious about wether Jason thinks the mill scale has to come off the boiler plates before everything gets put together. I'd never thought of it, but recently saw one of the Ffestiniog shop guys mention that they remove it as, IIRC, its presence causes accelerated corrosion in places with no mill scale. As for how they remove it, forget grit blasting! Apparently they just leave all the components out in the yard for a year to get nice and rusty. Of course they have security cameras around BL and the pieces aren't exactly easy to cart off...
I'll see if I can find the post.
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Thanx Brendan (and Jason and Mike) for posting and reposting these photos. The shim pattern has to be accurate, and to achieve that I will bring it up during the Spring Work Weekend and actually fit it over the cylinders and modify it on the spot if it needs it. I will then modify the follow block to the point where it can be used. Working on curved patterns can be difficult. I have been working over 1 1/2 years on clamshell door patterns for CNJ 113 (with delays for other projects) where nothing is flat. At times, things don't work out and have to be junked and started over. I am currently working on the core boxes and have wasted much time trying to figure them out.
Bernie
When I was in college I had an internship with Bucyrus (now bought out by Caterpillar). Bucyrus made shovels, drills, and drag lines for surface mining. While I was there, the cost of metals was going through the roof and smaller mines that weren't normally profitable were. As such, Bucyrus was in the process of making lots of spare parts to bring a lot of shovels out of mothball status and was even reintroducing models of shovels that hadn't been built since the early sixties.
One of my jobs as a mechanical engineering intern was to take an actual "blue"-print hand drawing of a shovel bucket and redesign it for modern manufacturing techniques. Your "complaint" of no flat surfaces was the bane of that project as well. In addition to no flat surfaces, there were no defined curves and only general overall dimensions. Fun times and a real sense of acomplishment when the job is done.
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Is that Kilroy, of WWII fame, portrayed on the blackhead?
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Is the mud ring solid or hollow? Also, how are the seams/joints sealed against the water and pressure? I ask because I am used to aviation work (planes are pressure vessels as well, just not much pressure). Cold riveting, gaskets and sealant.
Rob
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Is that Kilroy, of WWII fame, portrayed on the blackhead?
Could be, but it seems to me that Kilroy had three fingers on each side of his face and the nose hung over the edge of a line.
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I'll second that question! ;)
I'm also curious about wether Jason thinks the mill scale has to come off the boiler plates before everything gets put together. I'd never thought of it, but recently saw one of the Ffestiniog shop guys mention that they remove it as, IIRC, its presence causes accelerated corrosion in places with no mill scale. As for how they remove it, forget grit blasting! Apparently they just leave all the components out in the yard for a year to get nice and rusty. Of course they have security cameras around BL and the pieces aren't exactly easy to cart off...
I'll see if I can find the post.
I read that as well and it was also new to me, they did not recommend grit blasting (as it scorches the surface). Instead they just leave the plates and components outside in the wet Welsh weather for up to a year.
When we got our superheated 2-6-2T No. 9 on long term loan from a museum and cut the tubes out 10 years ago, we noticed that they were almost entirely covered with mill scale. The loco got a new firebox in 1945 and was put aside a few years later! But the end of the tubes (2" in the firebox end) were severely pitted with through holes due to galvanic corrosion from the copper firebox.
Dag B
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Any resemblance to any individual, real or imagined, as drawn on the backhead is coincidental. No association of any type is expressed or implied. Your mileage may vary. Action figures (or action ducks) are not included. Objects in mirror are closer than they appear.
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Hi ! Please Could you tell me what the mud ring is. I can find any proper translation in my dictionnaries .
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It is a rectangular piece of steel that is placed at the bottom of the firebox to fill the space between the outer firebox sheets and the inner firebox sheets.
In this video you can see a rivet being installed in the mud ring.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OLKR_jxQCqw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OLKR_jxQCqw)
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Hi ! Please Could you tell me what the mud ring is. I can find any proper translation in my dictionnaries .
Alain,
The sediments contained in the boiler water settle down to the bottom of the boiler on the mud ring where it surrounds the firebox. This is why it is called a mud ring. There is a dump valve located along the bottom and periodically the fireman preforms a blow down operation which opens that valve and water and the sediments are blown out thru a pipe under the cab. Since the water surrounding the firebox is under the same steam pressure as the steam going to the driver cylinders, this is a very noisy operation, but keeps the mud ring at the bottom of the boiler clean of sediments and debris.
A similar question came up in a thread that related to the water chemistry. We treat our water to reduce scale. But the chemical conversion increases other chemical ratios in the boiler water. The blow down serves to reduce the water level in the boiler so it is replaced, and diluted, with fresh water from the tender.
So, the blow down accomplishes two things, reducing sediments and solids and balancing the chemical composition of the boiler water.
We all learn by asking.
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Alain --
You may know the mud ring by its British or continental name, the foundation ring.
Robert --
The mud ring is solid and is riveted to both the firebox (on the inside) and the wrapper (on the outside). They are long rivets.
Cheers -- Wayne
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So to further the education of the uninitiated, what happens in the space between the firebox and the wrapper? Thanks.
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That space is surrounded by water. This is what (effectively) keeps the entire firebox from melting from the heat of the burning gas. Above the firebox's "crown sheet" (top) is the area occupied by steam, which then gathers (ultimately) in the steam dome (highest point of the whole boiler) and fed via the throttle and dry pipe to the cylinders. Again, if the crown sheet is not covered in water, it too will fail, and bad things will happen.
The mud ring is the lowest point of the boiler, so it is always full of water. It is also where all the sediments in the water settle, etc.
(@Jason, how'd I do? :-)
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That water filled space on the side of the boiler is often called a "Wet Leg"
which may not be in Alain's dictionary.
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3M, Scotch-Brite makes a Clean and Strip discs/Pads which work exceptionally well on removing mill scale. They can be purchased at Home Depot. I have used the black ones, I believe they come in Purple, (Silicone Carbide) and maybe a few other versions. Check the 3M website. They can be purchased to fit on a 4.5" angle grinder among other things. That is unless you want the boiler to sit outside for a year....rusting
Nyle
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Just abrasive blast the boiler before putting the Apexior on. Never have to worry about it again.
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Thank you so much Rick, Bill, Wayne, Bob, Ed and Carl for answering my question about mud ring and giving all the explanations about the back part of a boiler. I've learn quite a lot of vocabulary. The mud ring in French is le cadre du foyer the lowest part of the boiler. Since 1988 all our locomotives have been fit with a blow down valve.The inner fire box sheet is called in French le foyer and the outer fire box sheet la boite à feu the crown sheet is le ciel du foyer which one or two fuses are screwed through to avoid crown sheet damaging or boiler blowing up for lack of water. Fuses called plomb fusibles are compulsory in France.
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which one or two fuses are screwed through to avoid crown sheet damaging or boiler blowing up for lack of water. Fuses called plomb fusibles are compulsory in France.
Alain, actually the French name is very close to the terminology we use here. The most common name is fusible plug.
Keith Taylor
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Thanks Keith. An other stored up RR vocabulary word. Locomotives crews were haunting with melting them because in France it was with the worst mistake they could make .
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Fuses called plomb fusibles are compulsory in France.
Since the Latin for lead is plumbum I would guess the a translation would be "lead fuse" as most are filled with a lead or tin mixture
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On the AMTP like once on the SNCF it 's chemically pure lead and you need to get the knack to have it grip properly to the inside of the brass plug.
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Hi Any timetable for #10 to return to rails? We know it's been a tough spring for temperature and hope that it warms up soon for you all. We are trying to visit the weekend of the 19th in August with grandson and family and are looking forward to it!
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Like with #9, it will be done when it's done. We're hoping by Victorian Christmas, I think, but we'll see. Having the extra locomotive would be quite helpful.
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Thank you, James. I meant to say we are looking forward to our visit with or without #10! We know that restoration is a lengthy process. Here in Maryland boilers also have to be approved and pass state tests. Same in Maine?
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Yes. #10's new boiler must pass state inspections. We have been working with Boothbay Railway Village to ensure this is all done properly.
As with everything, completion time is also dependant on volunteer availability. We have a number of major projects underway currently, and would welcome any help anyone can give on them. Even if it doesn't mean helping directly with #10, your assistance could free someone else to do so.
To volunteer... show up! (on any Saturday.) Or if you have availability during the week, let us know.
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Hi Ed et al, Sorry to say that my health precludes making many trips to Maine. We are planning to be up there the third weekend in August. I am versed in MSWord and Excel and would be happy to assist if any documentation can be worked on down here in MD. I of course can read PDF but do not have the PDF write program. Looking forward to August.
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If you have MSWord 2007 or later, there is an option to publish the document as a .PDF
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If you have MSWord 2007 or later, there is an option to publish the document as a .PDF
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Thanks Roger, yes I do have 2007 or later. Just not use to having to use PDF files. No sweat.
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Bernie has completed work on the Saddle Shim, and is ready for it to go to the Foundry..
(http://i1132.photobucket.com/albums/m573/miketrainnut/100_1151_zpscxbqnuws.jpg)
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Another work of art from the Bernie Perch Gallery!!! We are so blessed to have talent such as Bernie on board.
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Fantastic work, Bernie.
Jeff S.
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A work of art! Beautiful work, Bernie!
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Amazing, gorgeous work, Bernie!!
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Castings arrived..
(http://i1132.photobucket.com/albums/m573/miketrainnut/IMG_3182_zpscs4i7ikf.jpg)
Test fit of the finished product...
(http://i1132.photobucket.com/albums/m573/miketrainnut/IMG_0930_zpssbm6ni9e.jpg)
(http://i1132.photobucket.com/albums/m573/miketrainnut/IMG_0931_zps33mzppcm.jpg)
(http://i1132.photobucket.com/albums/m573/miketrainnut/IMG_0934_zpsernrexb7.jpg)
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It looks like a reasonably good fit.
Bernie
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Looks good.
How will the Smokebox brace be treated?
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Wow, looks great!
How will the Smokebox brace be treated?
It should be an easy blacksmithing job to adjust the braces to fit the new diameter.
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Bernie, it’s a great fit!
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During the spring work weekend, we turned a corner in the year-long effort to reorganize, restructure, and improve the car shop. While there is still more work to be done, we have gotten the shop to the point where we can not only work on projects again, but work on them more efficiently.
During the work weekend, there was a team working to build a portable hydraulic power unit using a 22hp has engine. Once we fit a set of quick-disconnect hoses, this will entirely replace the use of the tractor to power the flanger, and allow us to work in a quieter environment when flanging. Over the winter, Jason designed a new waterjet cut template for referencing the backhead to the flanging die. This should provide much improved flexibility of the flanging machine. He is looking forward to sinking his teeth back into flanging once the primary focus of volunteer efforts have transitioned to the car barn extension under Brendan's leadership.
Starting this past week, we have begun working on the smokebox, which included turning down the outside diameter of the support ring to the final dimension, and getting it set up to match drill with the smokebox sheet.
We look forward to continuing to make progress #10 and the 21 Campaign as time and manpower resources allow, and updates will be posted in the respective threads and 21 Campaign Facebook page as appropriate. Thank you to all of our donors for helping us get over the finish line with the project funding!
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Happy to know that #10 and 21 Campaign are on the road again.
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Has work on #10 been restarted or when is a restart planed/contemplated? Or have other projects taken priority for now?
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What is the status of number ten? There are undated photos on facebook, are they current or historical?
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The FB photos are historical.
Actually, there is a crew working THIS WEEK fabricating parts for #10 and #11. Look for an official update on 9/11!
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VIDEO UPDATE
12/1/2021 - The throat sheet for #10's new boiler is bent into shape. (short video) (https://wordpress.wwfry.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/12/IMG_3363-1.mp4)
This work included forming the knuckle by hand, using wooden mallets to form the final curve over a die. The flanging machine was used to hold the workpiece in position on the template during this operation.
That work completed the flanging of components for No. 10’s new boiler. They will be sent out for normalization by heat treatment, and when the parts are returned, the crew will begin to fit-up and test assemble the parts before seeing them to Maine Locomotive & Machine Works for welding. This should mean that No. 10’s boiler will be completed other than installation of the flues. Sometime in late winter or early spring the boiler will be reunited with No. 10’s frame, and we may then see No 10 returned to service sometime in 2022!
See the Build 11 thread for photos.
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#10 up and running in 2022 that would be great. I have fantasies about a double headed train departing from TBS and climbing up the mountain to TOM It would be great. I'm sure you'll make my fantasie comes true.
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#10 up and running in 2022 that would be great. I have fantasies about a double headed train departing from TBS and climbing up the mountain to TOM It would be great. I'm sure you'll make my fantasie comes true.
Not quite from TBS but was from the bridge with 7 and 9 and a fleet of varnish this past August.
Lineside: https://youtu.be/XdJeOpLAoHQ (https://youtu.be/XdJeOpLAoHQ)
Onboard: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4MVecNS5__o (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4MVecNS5__o)
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Nice videos thank you so much. With a bit less of varnish # 9 and #10 will make it.
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Nice videos thank you so much. With a bit less of varnish # 9 and #10 will make it.
When we get 11 running, it probably won't need 10, but the two could be paired together for photo effects.
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Nice videos thank you so much. With a bit less of varnish # 9 and #10 will make it.
When we get 11 running, it probably won't need 10, but the two could be paired together for photo effects.
With a running start I bet 11 could easily do 5 cars, but this was 6, and one of them was the Rangely (which is the weight of a fully loaded regular passenger car). Combine 14 is pretty heavy, too. 7 never broke loose on this climb but I promised Jason I wouldn't try to pull 9 apart going up the hill. So I just kept a pace while 9 worked it's heart out trying to take the slack out of the coupler they were sharing.
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Any update on #10's status?
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It has been waiting on dedicatable shop space. Last plan was as soon as 56 was done, it could move there.
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No. 10 will be fine to handle trains to Alna Center and Top of the Mountain. It proved its mettle for a number of years before No. 9 came into use. On dates when no Trout Brook services are scheduled, No. 10 will do the trick at less cost than No. 9 or No. 11, in my opinion.
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Yes, the Trainmaster is eager to get #10 back on the roster for precisely the reason Wayne stated; it is ideal for a 3-car "short turn" train for events at SeaLyon Farm / Top of Mountain.
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i always found 10’s cab to be much roomier making for a very pleasant cab ride experience.
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Funny how 10's cab always seemed rather cramped to me, but 9's always seemed pretty roomy. Until the restoration, then I was surprised how unroomy it was.
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if I recall correctly, you can sit on the window sill in No. 10's cab. That makes a big difference as you can't sit on the sill in 9. Also if you're on the tall side you have to stoop slightly to stick your head out the window so you have to be either inside or out.
And, the brake wheel in 9 is in the way, and now the vacuum brake stand is there on the engineer's side.
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#10 had a work session today. The guilty will remain nameless..
(https://i.postimg.cc/QdZQ3jMR/0311230848a.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/YCN12TGj/0311230848c.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/gkZVQxGV/0311230849.jpg)
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The No.10 crew had great success today! But only 1 photo.
We got the connecting rods off the crosshead.
Built a pulling jig to separate the piston rod from the crosshead safely. Which we did.
We then pulled the cylinder heads off for removal of the pistons. Removed said pistons and care and protected them. (Wrapped up and set in the cab with labels.) (Please dont touch)
Cleaned, quick inspection, and lubrication of the cylinder bores, and put the covers back in place. Put rags in the hole where the piston rod passed through the rear of the cylinder.
Reconnected the connecting rods along with the keys as to not lose them. Overall great progress was made. Absolutely proud of the care that showed up today to help. New volunteer Shawn Doyle, and Benton Hayes. (Dan showed up late though and left early. Maybe he needed a nap ;) ) all in all it was a great day! Next up is measuring for new rings and grinding the saddle to smokebox adapter casting!
See you on the rails!!
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Bryce and Team 10 --
Great work, guys. Keep it up!
Cheers -- Wayne
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The No.10 crew had great success today! But only 1 photo.
Well, here's two. One of Bryce at work with the jig.
(https://i.imgur.com/dxk3LZT.jpg)
And a close-up of the jig, or at least a portion of it.
(https://i.imgur.com/5HZqGPY.jpg)