W.W.&F. Discussion Forum

Worldwide Narrow Gauges => Two Footers outside of the US => Topic started by: Ira Schreiber on January 29, 2009, 11:42:34 PM

Title: A New Baldwin 2-4-2
Post by: Ira Schreiber on January 29, 2009, 11:42:34 PM
Check this out.


http://rypn.sunserver.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=26999

Your chance to be a part owner.
If they do well enough, #12 may be in our future.
Title: Re: A New Baldwin 2-4-2
Post by: John McNamara on January 30, 2009, 01:17:15 AM
762 pounds = approx $1100.
Title: Re: A New Baldwin 2-4-2
Post by: James Patten on January 30, 2009, 08:10:45 AM
I should point out that building new locomotives is not infrequently done Over There.  The Ffestiniog has built at least 2 new locomotives in the last 15 years (if I'm not mistaken, Taliesin and Merddyn Emrys)
Title: Re: A New Baldwin 2-4-2
Post by: Stephen Hussar on January 30, 2009, 11:22:40 AM
They're lucky that the "LYN" was also given the number 762...as it allows them to ask for 762.00 pounds per share... With regard to our No 7/11 project, asking for $11. isn't going to get us very far. Maybe we should ask for donations in the amount of $711.?

Some photos of a nice model of the LYN: http://flickr.com/photos/trainsandstuff/sets/72157608037815951/
Title: Re: A New Baldwin 2-4-2
Post by: John Kokas on January 30, 2009, 09:12:07 PM
True Steve,

How about $1100?  That works out to be about 750 pounds (sterling).
Actually, if two units were built certain costs could be shared and overall price would be reduced.  Anybody think'in what I'm think'in?
Title: Re: A New Baldwin 2-4-2
Post by: Stephen Hussar on January 30, 2009, 10:03:58 PM
Oh yeah John, we've been thinkin' that too...it's really a manpower issue. As it is we're looking at an 8-10 year project...unless we can corral a large corporate sponsor, the by-product of which would serve to underwrite hiring a couple of full-timers...

Stephen
Title: Re: A New Baldwin 2-4-2
Post by: Phil Raynes on January 30, 2009, 11:19:43 PM
As it says in the RYPN announcement, it will have higher pressure, and a few other refinements. Actually, the pressure is planned to be 210 lbs, with superheat and piston valves!  It was originally 180 lbs, with slide valves.  So that the purists won't be too upset, the piston valves will be hidden in a chest that looks like the old slide valves!  With the higher pressure and other modern improvements, it will be more powerful and also more economical to run.  There has been some discussion on another forum about whether it should have the straight stack like most Baldwins, or the traditional British chimney with a flared capped copper top.

Phil
Title: Re: A New Baldwin 2-4-2
Post by: John Kokas on January 31, 2009, 08:05:15 AM
Actually what I'm thinking is if this was to be built "across the pond", then do it there and ship to Portland (contract out).  Yes there is some additional cost for shipping but that would probably be offset (to a degree) by the reductions in cost by building multiples.......  The other advantage is if there are any technical problems, those get fixed on the prototype and the second unit will avoid them.

Title: Re: A New Baldwin 2-4-2
Post by: Stephen Hussar on January 31, 2009, 09:47:21 AM
I could perhaps see another group doing that, that does not have the facilties or know-how, but not the WW&F. There is supposedly a group in California building a brand new 2-foot gauge railroad...I can imagine that they may be interested.

A big part of building a new locomotive at Sheepscot is the value in the learning experience for so many of the volunteers. In fact in order to carry "the torch" of steam forward into the future, we need more projects like this here in the US.
Title: Re: A New Baldwin 2-4-2
Post by: John Kokas on January 31, 2009, 12:48:48 PM
Great point Steve, then maybe the option is to buy an engine in "kit or knock-down" form and do all the assembly and final machining in-house.  Definitely would save some more bucks......
Title: Re: A New Baldwin 2-4-2
Post by: Paul Horky on January 31, 2009, 02:07:22 PM
Might be better to get them to build just the running gear and boiler then ship that so the rest can be finisher here. That way we chose what she looks like.
Title: Re: A New Baldwin 2-4-2
Post by: Paul Horky on February 09, 2009, 06:35:58 PM
About financing a project like this Stephen Hussar said that $11 would not do much. I disagree $11 is more affordable to more people so even people like young Matt could russel up $11 where $1100 or $711 would be tuff and nothing said anyone who can afford more can't give more.
Title: Re: A New Baldwin 2-4-2
Post by: John Kokas on February 15, 2009, 09:26:02 PM
Agreed..........

If everyone who is a member and those "visitors" could pony up $11 or $9 (for #9) just once a year would be an extra $10,000+.  Not chicken feed.......

Even better was eveyone contributing every month and watch how fast things get done......... cheaper than eating out.........

Old Chinese proverb:  Many little brooks make a mighty river..
Title: Re: A New Baldwin 2-4-2
Post by: Frank Knight on February 16, 2009, 09:23:33 PM
Even better was eveyone contributing every month and watch how fast things get done......... cheaper than eating out.........

John,

Current operating procedures call for a thank you letter acknowledging every donation. If everybody donated a little every month the overhead in processing would be tremendous. How about saving the amount every month and sending it in once a year?

Frank Knight
Membership Secretary
(the guy who sends those acknowledgment letters)
Title: Re: A New Baldwin 2-4-2
Post by: Paul Horky on February 16, 2009, 10:55:04 PM
Frank your point is well taken. So my thought was sell shares in the project like buying stock in a company @ $11 a share so if someone wants to buy multipal shares they can do that. If a person wants to be involved they need to deside how many shares they can afford at onetime then if more shares need to be sold if they want more they can buy again. But for us poor fokes we can still be a part of a really great project in a manner each of us can afford.
Title: Re: A New Baldwin 2-4-2
Post by: Pete "Cosmo" Barrington on February 17, 2009, 01:45:21 PM
That's not a half bad idea! I could get behind something like that. I like the idea of making it more affordable to everyone.  ;)
Title: Re: A New Baldwin 2-4-2
Post by: Mike Fox on February 17, 2009, 08:16:11 PM
It's always been affordable. Give what you can, and then double it ;D. Just kidding. No matter what the donation, big or small, it helps the museum achieve what ever goals or expenditures it has. Got to pay the bills you know.
   
Title: Re: A New Baldwin 2-4-2
Post by: Eric Bolton on February 18, 2009, 06:25:09 PM
I personally feel that if we are going to build a steam locomotive here it should be done in this country with as little outsourcing as possible. Boilers can be built her. Frames can be cut here. Cylinders can be cast here. Everything on a steam locomotive can be manufactured in this country. Plus if you do it here you cut out the shipping costs! With the cost of their newest loco tiping the scales at around $4,000,000 US it doesnt seem like it would be any cheaper.
Title: Re: A New Baldwin 2-4-2
Post by: Vincent "Lightning" LeRow on February 18, 2009, 08:15:49 PM
Pluss by making parts a little at a time, assembling her a little at a time, and always planning far ahead, we can get busineses and individuals more involved.  A small hardware company can donate a bag with a few bolts and fittings, or 1 or 2 small castings much easier than say, every fitting, nut and bolt for the engine.  I can't imagine any museam or preservation org. that could drop $4million for a brand new locomotve.  Especially not us.  I know we're great and well organized, we haven't perfected the art of growing money on trees. The government is really close though, still only getting green leaves with the ocasional splash of color. :P
Title: Re: A New Baldwin 2-4-2
Post by: John Kokas on February 21, 2009, 01:57:51 PM
Frank,

Whether we sell "shares" or some other financial vehicle, I can't imagine we would discourage people from donating because of "paperwork".  May I suggest,  just hold a running record and issue a consolidated donation record at the end of the year.  For many of us it's much easier to spend a few bucks monthly than a large chuck once a year. (At least until college tuition payments are over)
Title: Re: A New Baldwin 2-4-2
Post by: Paul Horky on February 22, 2009, 01:47:32 PM
Yes $4 million usd is alot of money but that is for the whole engine. I'm saying only buy the boiler which would have to be built to FRA standertes and the basic running gear [ frame, drivers and axels, boxes shoses and wedges, lead and trailing trucks, cylenders a rolling chase]. All the rest would be built here. Also since we already have some patterns for like the lead and trailing truck wheel centers and I hear Bernie Perch is working on the driver center pattern if these will work for the Brites then let them be used to make these parts for both them and us. But by no means should we buy a complete engine. At least check the price and if they would even be willing to do this.
Title: Re: A New Baldwin 2-4-2
Post by: Eric Bolton on February 26, 2009, 09:23:17 PM
Yeah but boilers can be built here (#9s boiler) frames can be built here (example is in a thread in Narrow Gauge Discussion) cylinders can be cast here and all for cheaper then it would cost to have it built over seas and shipped here. Things like shoes, wedges, journal boxes ect are no big problem to machine or cast. You really wouldn't be able to use the same parts as the Lyn project because they are two different locomotives so all of the castings are going to be one offs and aren't going to cost any less. If you order a boiler and rolling chassie whats left to build? The cab, tank and domes? How is that going to save us any money? That right there was probable 2 million out of the cost for the Tornado. Again if we are going to build a locomotive from scratch it should be completely built here. I see no gain in have parts manufactured over sees and shipped here when we have the abilities to make everything right here. Below is an example of a new frame that was made for the RGS #20 at the Strasburg Railroad. It is to be welded into the old frame to replace a bent section. WE HAVE THE ABILITIES!
(http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z281/linnk-28/25Feb20frame001.jpg)
Title: Re: A New Baldwin 2-4-2
Post by: Pete "Cosmo" Barrington on February 26, 2009, 10:09:05 PM
Ok, I'm with you on this.
Let's show those Brits how it's done! ;)
Title: Re: A New Baldwin 2-4-2
Post by: Paul Horky on February 26, 2009, 10:26:58 PM
You guys are in a rut your thinking #7 a 2-4-4t. I'm thinking what it said on the posting a 2-4-2 not a tank engine but a cut down Prairie with tender. I think most agree that a full size prairie would be too big for our line. But a Columbia might be more usible so nothing that has already been done would be wasted. All i'm saying is check it out see what the Brits would want to do this and if they are even intereated in doing a joint project. Maybe they won't be interested. But if you don't ask you won't know.
Title: Re: A New Baldwin 2-4-2
Post by: Pete "Cosmo" Barrington on February 26, 2009, 10:52:49 PM
I think the reason for everyone thinking "2-4-4 #7/11" is because that's the agreed upon next project and already has parts fabricated for it. Granted it's a long way to go, but it has been started.
Anything larger than #7/11 is such a long way off, BUT, after building #11 from scratch then the SKILLS as well as the tech needed for such a project will be there on site, so there won't be such a need to go as far as the UK for such a thing.
I think a better idea for "joint project" co-operation would be between the 4 (5 if you count Edaville) New England 2'ers.
The idea of going to such places as Strassburg for contracting/assistance is appealing as well.
I think the goal should be to creat the skill/tech-base here in the US, especially New England to do what needs be done to preserve the M2F  in history AND spirit!
Title: Re: A New Baldwin 2-4-2
Post by: Paul Horky on February 27, 2009, 04:31:44 PM
OK lets take a look at this joint coop with the other 2ft's. lets see MNRM they don't know if or for how long they will have a home, plus they have 4 engines they can't afford to keep in service so have leasted one to the Sandy River Group would they be interested I think NOT. Boothbay  would an engine this big fit on their line I don't think so. Yes they can build the boiler but at what kind of cost? I'll bet they are loosing their shirt on the #9's boiler  and the new boiler would have to be totally engineered from the mud ring to the steam dome. Edaville don't know that their finatial situation is. A maybe. The Sandy River group I hear they have friends with deep pockets but I think they would want a Sandy River engine not a WWFRY engine their 2-4-4T's had 36" drivers not 33"s and were bigger like the Bridgton engines interested problely not. So who to link up with? As far as what you have  all you have rigth now could be used on either engine.
Title: Re: A New Baldwin 2-4-2
Post by: Pete "Cosmo" Barrington on February 27, 2009, 06:11:42 PM
Ok, let's start with the fact that NONE of the afore mentioned RR's have ROOM for anything much bigger than a forney. WW&F will most likely be the first one to reach that point.
Seccond, by "joint venture" I meant a pooling of resources, much like having Boothbay build the boiler for #9. They can easily build one for #7.
If SR&RL wanted to get in on the act, they could likely shoot for a copy of SR&RL#10, or annother similar engine.
(Personally, I'd love to see a #24, but again, where would ANY group put it?)
But as for casting common parts etc, I think some cooperation can and should happen.
But, since you're talking size here, is the British loco you reference anything close in wheel, boiler or cylinder diamiter to anything that ran in Maine? As was mentioned previously, even if you did go to the Brits you'd need a series of "one-off's."
Personally, I'm all for keeping it as American as possible. There's enough good hard US $$ going overseas these days as it is. Let someone HERE benefit AND build up the skills and tech necessary for such projects.
Title: Re: A New Baldwin 2-4-2
Post by: Mike Fox on February 27, 2009, 07:42:13 PM
Boothbay building the boiler for #9 is not a joint venture. Boothbay was contracted for the boiler. And when finished, Boothbay will get no benefit from the boiler or #9, it will just be another job they have done. Well done at that.
Title: Re: A New Baldwin 2-4-2
Post by: Bill Reidy on February 27, 2009, 10:33:32 PM
And I certainly have not heard they are "loosing their shirt", nor have had any difficulty engineering the new boiler.  From all reports I have heard, the team there has been very thorough in their research and construction of the boiler and have made every effort to make it match the original boiler's appearance while meeting all current regulations for FRA compliance.
Title: Re: A New Baldwin 2-4-2
Post by: John Kokas on March 01, 2009, 08:18:30 AM
I've been doing my own estimate for a 2-6-0, just for a point of reference how much is the boiler for #9 costing?  (If that is public information)  If not, could someone just drop me a note (offline).  Thanx
Title: Re: A New Baldwin 2-4-2
Post by: James Patten on March 01, 2009, 05:29:19 PM
The cost of the boiler will be around $70,000 when all is said and done.  Some volunteer work was done for the boiler, so the costs of a new boiler could go up to $100,000 if you didn't have any of that.
Title: Re: A New Baldwin 2-4-2
Post by: Phil Raynes on March 01, 2009, 11:51:42 PM
I believe it has been mentioned before on this board, but the 2' gauge Brecon Mountain Railway in Wales is also working on several Baldwin locos.  They are currently refurbishing a Baldwin 4-6-2 (that previously ran there and is down for repairs).  They are rebuilding another Baldwin from Brazil, but their website doesn't give a hint as to what wheel arrangement it is.  And they have two more replica Baldwin locos (from original drawings) planned.  Perhaps they might be a source for replica Baldwin parts - or even have them make a third Baldwin while they are at it!  (Again, they don't say what it is they are planning, but their line is noted for having steep grades. My guess is that it would be some sort of 6-coupled loco: 2-6-2, or 4-6-2, or 4-6-0, or 2-6-0.)

It is nice to dream!
Phil
Title: Re: A New Baldwin 2-4-2
Post by: Glenn Christensen on March 02, 2009, 10:20:45 PM
I believe ... the 2' gauge Brecon Mountain Railway in Wales is ...rebuilding another Baldwin from Brazil,

Hi Phil,

You'll be pleased to know, the Baldwin in question is a 2-6-0 tender locomotive from the Mogiana line.  (Perhaps its on its way to becoming an "Old Star" look-alike ...)


Best Regards,
Glenn
Title: Re: A New Baldwin 2-4-2
Post by: Bill Sample on March 02, 2009, 10:42:41 PM
Glenn posted on a different thread that the SR&RL replicas being built at the Brecon Mountain Railway were #10 and #23.  Those two and the possible "Old Star" re-creation certainly will be a strong attraction for us!
James, your travel agency might get busy...
Title: Re: A New Baldwin 2-4-2
Post by: Eric Bolton on March 03, 2009, 10:22:27 PM
You guys are in a rut your thinking #7 a 2-4-4t. I'm thinking what it said on the posting a 2-4-2 not a tank engine but a cut down Prairie with tender. I think most agree that a full size prairie would be too big for our line. But a Columbia might be more usible so nothing that has already been done would be wasted. All i'm saying is check it out see what the Brits would want to do this and if they are even intereated in doing a joint project. Maybe they won't be interested. But if you don't ask you won't know.

The problem with this is that it gets away from the museums mission. To HISTORICALLY recreate the WW&F Railway. The WW&F never had a 2-4-2 and for that matter no US two footer did. Therefor there is no reason to invest in such a project. Now a 2-4-4 of the design of the #7 is historically correct which is why it was chosen.
Title: Re: A New Baldwin 2-4-2
Post by: John L Dobson on March 04, 2009, 02:49:09 PM
You could always ask these people to build you something...

The machine illustrated is a brand new (2009) 900mm gauge locomotive, to a 1930s design, for the Molibahn on the Baltic Coast.

http://polishrail.wordpress.com/2009/03/03/they-build-steam-engines-too/

Make sure you click on the 'Construction photographs' insert - it's a fascinating collection.
Title: Re: A New Baldwin 2-4-2
Post by: Paul Horky on March 04, 2009, 09:29:06 PM
Eric how many Maine 2' lines had a 15 ton plymouth?
Title: Re: A New Baldwin 2-4-2
Post by: Vincent "Lightning" LeRow on March 04, 2009, 10:02:19 PM
Teresa,

I think what Eric is trying to say is that is that it isnt worth the museams money to invest in a irrelevant steam locomotive.  And I believe the reason we have a 15 ton plymoth is not for display or re-creationism, but purelly for the ease of having a piece of heavy duty turn-key equipment.  I also believe at the time the museam purchased and restored the plymouth, we had no steam locomotives that we could use to haul a passenger train. And in the years after that a reliable back up locomotive if the steam engine failed. Also, look at when we plow the line out for victorian Christmas.  #10 can't handle that.  Another reason to have this locomotive, even in the future when there are three steamers in our roundhouse,  we aren't going to fire up all three of them every operating day.  On work weekends perhaps but not every operating day.  Now say one of our steamers takes out a train and gets stuck on an icy incline.  are we going to wait 2 and 1/2 hours for another steamer to be prepped and brought out?  No. It is much better for our visitors and crews if #52 can be turned on and in a few moments after the air resivoir fills up heads out to help. 

# 52 was origionally purchased out of necessity, not for luxury, and is now kept for the reliable back-up it has become.  and to further the point, steam is expensive to both aquire and maintain, and it's not worth our valuable time and money to invest in a non-prototypical engine when there are still so many of the roads origional locomotives left to recreate. I'm all for seing #6 v. 2.0 speed through Alna Center, but the apples aren't ripe for the pickin yet.

Title: Re: A New Baldwin 2-4-2
Post by: Eric Bolton on March 04, 2009, 11:20:49 PM
Eric how many Maine 2' lines had a 15 ton plymouth?

In this day and age you cant run a railroad without a diesel back up as much as I'd love diesels to go away (except my GP-40s at work they can stay  ;D ). Also hundreds of thousands of dollars werent spent to get the 52. With the money that is going to be dished out for a brand new steam locomotive there is absolutly no reason to build locomotive that the original railroad didnt own. To build a 2-4-2 for the WW&F would be like building scaled down replicas of EBT hoppers. It just doesnt fit the mission of the museum.