W.W.&F. Discussion Forum
WW&F Railway Museum Discussion => Museum Discussion => Topic started by: John McNamara on October 16, 2016, 07:33:13 PM
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The only problem with #9 facing north is that when giving signals yesterday to start the train I couldn't recall which way it was facing!
Just think of it as a Diesel :-)
-John
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Maybe for signal purposes, we need to paint an "F" on #9's pilot beam. LOL
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Maybe for signal purposes, we need to paint an "F" on #9's pilot beam. LOL
That won't work when the locomotive is 5 cars away and I can't see which way its pointed.
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Maybe for signal purposes, we need to paint an "F" on #9's pilot beam. LOL
That won't work when the locomotive is 5 cars away and I can't see which way its pointed.
James...no problem just have the brakeman stand on the fireman's side and give the signal to the fireman. It may not prevent errors but they won't blame you!
Keith
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A while back some one circulated a bunch of silly laws-
One was an "F" was to be painted on the front of a Diesel loco.
This was a case of the someone not knowing the situation.
As we know on many locos the front is not obvious from the ground.
Maybe South should always be front no mater which direction a loco is facing. :D
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No, it's not enough. Those working as conductors and brakemen need to have enough situational awareness to know which way their locomotive is facing, and if they don't know, they need to find out before they start passing signals.
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I'm sure we (conductors and brakemen) will develop the situational awareness needed. It will be a new skill for us, since we've never needed to think about it (other than steam = south, diesel = north.) It's all part of learning how to run a railroad.
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Even career railroaders mix up directions from time to time. The important thing is the crew knows the direction intended. For example if I see a wrong signal as fireman, I motion the correct sign I think they mean and they suddenly change their motion with a smile and nod. It happens to the best of us. If it happens on a regular basis, which it very rarely if ever does, then it is a concern.
Now the engine crew can turn the engines during lunch when the crew isnt watching and really toy with the conductor. Lol
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The main purpose of the"F" on the side of the diesel is, I believe, so that hostlers can set up several units, each facing in a different direction, at the head end of a train, to move in the same direction rather than pulling in opposite directions. I am pretty sure that all an MU cable will tell the engine is "go forward" or "go in reverse", it can't tell a trailing unit what direction is forward and which reverse, so there is a switch in the cab that is moved depending on which direction is the front of the train and which direction the engine is facing. Certain railroads ran long hood forward (Norfolk and Western among them) and so the F accounts for these differences.
I wonder if any 2-ft gauge railroad, anywhere, ever had MU capable diesels?
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The main purpose of the"F" on the side of the diesel is, I believe, so that hostlers can set up several units, each facing in a different direction, at the head end of a train, to move in the same direction rather than pulling in opposite directions. I am pretty sure that all an MU cable will tell the engine is "go forward" or "go in reverse", it can't tell a trailing unit what direction is forward and which reverse, so there is a switch in the cab that is moved depending on which direction is the front of the train and which direction the engine is facing. Certain railroads ran long hood forward (Norfolk and Western among them) and so the F accounts for these differences.
I wonder if any 2-ft gauge railroad, anywhere, ever had MU capable diesels?
GE U8 diesels for South African rail were MU capable I think (24").
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The main purpose of the"F" on the side of the diesel is, I believe, so that hostlers can set up several units, each facing in a different direction, at the head end of a train, to move in the same direction rather than pulling in opposite directions. I am pretty sure that all an MU cable will tell the engine is "go forward" or "go in reverse", it can't tell a trailing unit what direction is forward and which reverse, so there is a switch in the cab that is moved depending on which direction is the front of the train and which direction the engine is facing. Certain railroads ran long hood forward (Norfolk and Western among them) and so the F accounts for these differences.
I wonder if any 2-ft gauge railroad, anywhere, ever had MU capable diesels?
There is no switch in the cab to tell the locomotive which way is front. The reason there is an F on the front is because the FRA requires it. Most folks figure they can tell which is the front on modern diesel electric locomotives by looking at which end the cab is on. However as you said there are some railroads like the Norfolk and Western that had the locomotives set up to run with the long nose forward. On those locomotives the engineers controls (always on the right hand side of a locomotive) are set so the engineer looks along the long hood. When set up as multiple units the lead reverser just tells the trailing locomotives to go in the same direction. The trailing units can be set up in any orientation.
Keith Taylor (Retired Conrail Engineer / Road Foreman of Engines)
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Here is an example of why the FRA requires one end to be designated the front.
On locomotives like the GG-1 you have two identical ends each with a control station facing an end. To report a defect such as a flat spot you would report a flat spot on wheel L-3. L meaning the left side of the locomotive and 3 indicating the third axle from the front. Unless you designate one end as the front the L-3 is meaningless.
Keith
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A couple related notes...AFAIK, in earlier days of diesel loco use, many roads ran their units long hood forward, particularly in the grade crossing-rich eastern US, to increase engine crew collision protection, and to follow steam protocol of necessary cab placement behind the boiler, farther from frontal impact...except for the SP, which ran their big articulated steamers cab forward to cut down on asphyxiation of engineers and firemen during slow, smoky freight runs through long, un-ventilated Rockies snowsheds.
And to cover all bases, N&W had dual loco control stands for awhile.
ATSF end-cab Baldwin yard switchers I worked on had their Fs at their hood fronts.
Even though current loco design today dictates orientation, I'm sure continuing FRA regs still require F markings, also optional? terminal designations, on each unit.
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Steam engines are exempt from the F requirement. Same goes for needing ditch lights, etc.
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GE U8 diesels for South African rail were MU capable I think (24").
Hmm, some of those would be nice on helper service southbound to TOM.
There is no switch in the cab to tell the locomotive which way is front.
Keith Taylor (Retired Conrail Engineer / Road Foreman of Engines)
Welp, an RFE would know. I think (again just an observer) the railroads generally refer to different ends of a car (and possibly locomotives) as A end or B end, determined by travel of the brake piston, so that say you could tell the shop that a car has flat spots on the A end truck. So the F is probably not used in any documents.
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Keith,
Was it the N&W or the Southern that had some units with 2 control stands? I was in the south for 4 years and remember some of the NS units were still that way.
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Keith,
Was it the N&W or the Southern that had some units with 2 control stands? I was in the south for 4 years and remember some of the NS units were still that way.
Mike, from what I remember the Southern had high short hoods leading and the N&W had some dual control locomotives, but it has been a long time and my memory isn't so good. I do know the Reading had dual control SW1500's that became Conrail units.
Keith
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The N&W had quite a few engines with dual control stands. We had 4 ex-N&W GP-9's with dual controls when I was at Maryland Midland. We rebuilt one at a time and one control set was removed, the high hood chopped and the short end became the front. We also did low voltage re-wires. This was 1989 - '91.
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And all of the PRSL Baldwin As-16 and DRS-1500 diesels had dual controls with the long hood being the F end.
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The Reading had quite a few dual control diesels, ranging from RS-3's and F-M Trainmasters to modern SW-1500's and MP-15's. The MP-15's were designed to replace old Baldwin and Alco roadswitchers and even had toilets. The toilet was located right in front of the cab on the right side, necessitating a long walk from the cab door on the other side all the way around the front. Not much fun on a dark and stormy night!
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Reading dual control switcher at Three Bridges, NJ on the former Lehigh Valley RR mainline.
These rascals were capable of 50 mph on a mainline. I know this from personal experience.
Good locomotives!
Keith
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RF&P had dual control stands on all of it's GP35's, GP40's (Not the -2's) SW1200's and #91, a SW1500.
Not thinking of doing that to #9 are you?
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Keith, you may recall some ex-PC and CR GP38s with dual controls, some of them ended up on the CM&W (Chicago Missouri & Western) railroad on the ex-GM&O line between Chicago and Kansas City. I spent my senior year in college in 1988 riding around on the Bloomington IL yard engine (obviously a different time), and some of the GP38s, picked up from Helm, had a second control stand, long since disused, facing back from the fireman's side, they were unpopular because they took up space where an extra seat would be. I am not sure why they had the second control stand, 7700 series PC and CR numbers as I recall, they were junkers by then, they threw oil out on the gangway four inches deep..
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Phil -- I believe those Geep 38's with dual controls were probably the former Pennsylvania-Reading Seashore Lines units. They replaced dual-control Baldwin road switchers. PRSL had a lot of short branch lines where one unit could handle the traffic and apparently they liked the concept of the engineer being on the right side no matter which direction they were running.
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They were in the 2000 series on PRSL.
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Four of those dual control GP38's, 2010-2014 never made it to PRSL. They ended up on Penn Central. I rode them as a kid on the Pemberton branch local freight.
RF&P's SW1200's rode nice at 60 on the south end local!
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RF&P's SW1200's rode nice at 60 on the south end local!
The speed limit on the Lehigh Line was 50 mph under Conrail.....so naturally I wouldn't know how they rode at 60 mph.
:)
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This s way off the WW&F. Finis
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I figured the admin was hot on our trail!
So, anyway, the beautiful new turntable comes at the price of directional distraction. While this is a serious condition, I think the great minds of Sheepscot will prevail. Perhaps another turning facility at wherever the North End attains will be the ultimate solution, or perhaps turning the engine twice per trip further complicates things. Geez! Just look for which end the smokestack is on!
other John
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John Stone...I thought yours was a great idea....and then I remembered those Southern Pacific "cab-in-fronts" ???
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Steve, while those SP cab forwards are a real threat to directional clarity, as long as the WW&F doesn't construct any snow sheds we're probably OK. The real problem goes back to two foot gauge infancy. George Mansfield insisted that Ariel and Puck be set up aft backwards. I firmly believe this led to B&B's early demise. Investors got nervous when they couldn't tell if the little trains were coming or going!
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This s way off the WW&F. Finis
Au Contraire (had to do a web search to spell this right), I think we have determined that the diesels should probably have an F on them, even though it doesn't serve a purpose. #52 at least. I wonder what the A and B ends would be on #52, since it doesn't have a brake cylinder (yet).
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Since #52 is designed to run long hood forward, the radiator end should be "F".
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Au Contraire (had to do a web search to spell this right), I think we have determined that the diesels should probably have an F on them, even though it doesn't serve a purpose.
The F most certainly does serve a purpose in reporting defects. If you say the L-2 brake shoe is hanging up, you need to know which is the front in order to know which side is the left.
Keith
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Au Contraire (had to do a web search to spell this right), I think we have determined that the diesels should probably have an F on them, even though it doesn't serve a purpose.
The F most certainly does serve a purpose in reporting defects. If you say the L-2 brake shoe is hanging up, you need to know which is the front in order to know which side is the left.
Keith
You don't say A end or B end on a unit? Or does that make sense?
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Au Contraire (had to do a web search to spell this right), I think we have determined that the diesels should probably have an F on them, even though it doesn't serve a purpose.
The F most certainly does serve a purpose in reporting defects. If you say the L-2 brake shoe is hanging up, you need to know which is the front in order to know which side is the left.
Keith
You don't say A end or B end on a unit? Or does that make sense?
No there is no A or B end on a locomotive as there is more than one brake cylinder on a locomotive....they are truck mounted. A box car doesn't have a "front or back" but a locomotive does.
Keith
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P.S. the "B" end of a freight car is the end with the hand brake and retaining valve.
On a locomotive the hand brake can be at either end, front or back.
Keith
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#52 has had an "F" indication on both sides of the radiator end since 1998.
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#52 has had an "F" indication on both sides of the radiator end since 1998.
There you go again! Introducing facts ;D
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There you go again! Introducing facts ;D
Never let the facts get in the way of a good story!
Keith
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Since our diesel has only one seat and one control, saying L2 brake is pretty obvious. Actually we'd probably say ER for Engineer's rear brake. E for Engineer and F for Fireman.