W.W.&F. Discussion Forum

WW&F Railway Museum Discussion => Work and Events => Topic started by: Brendan Barry on July 27, 2016, 06:58:40 PM

Title: Boiler plate flanging machine
Post by: Brendan Barry on July 27, 2016, 06:58:40 PM
As part of the plan to build a new boilers for no. 10 and no. 11 we wanted to be able to cold flange the boiler sheets in house. To accomplish this we are building a hydraulic flanging machine based on a Beatty Machine & Mfg Co patent. The flame cut steel plates for the frame of the flanging machine arrived at Sheepscot today.

Beatty Machine & Mfg Co patent drawing

(http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s5/bbarry74/bbarry74003/US2175679-1.png)

Flame cut flanging machine frame parts.

(http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s5/bbarry74/bbarry74004/IMG_7124.jpg)

(http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s5/bbarry74/bbarry74004/IMG_7127.jpg)

(http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s5/bbarry74/bbarry74004/IMG_7130.jpg)

(http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s5/bbarry74/bbarry74004/IMG_7149.jpg)

Title: Re: Boiler plate flanging machine
Post by: Harold Downey on July 27, 2016, 07:29:15 PM
Very cool!  Those plates are a lot bigger than they appear in the picture.  You can see the pallet almost lost under the side plates.

Here is a view of the WW&F version, straight from our Texas engineering department:
Title: Re: Boiler plate flanging machine
Post by: John McNamara on July 27, 2016, 07:46:22 PM
TED = Technology, Entertainment and Design talks that cover almost all topics — from science to business to global issues — in more than 100 languages.

TED = Texas Engineering Department, a group of talented folks who design and build things for the WW&F
Title: Re: Boiler plate flanging machine
Post by: Mike Fox on July 28, 2016, 05:25:19 AM
Very cool. I bet there will be more uses with this than just for boiler work...wonderfull addition to our machine shop equipment
Title: Re: Boiler plate flanging machine
Post by: Chuck Watford on August 24, 2016, 09:50:34 AM
I know you guys have been very busy with other projects, but just wanting to know if you've made any progress on the flanging machine? Looks like some machined parts laying behind the turntable wheels photo that might be flanger parts.
Title: Re: Boiler plate flanging machine
Post by: Dwight Winkley on August 24, 2016, 03:55:22 PM
Chuck, That is the linkage for the flanging machine. I don't think they have been machined yet. Parts were cut from a plate of steel. Than again the pin holes may have been machined.
dwight
Title: Re: Boiler plate flanging machine
Post by: Chuck Watford on August 24, 2016, 04:13:53 PM
If these are some of the flanging machine parts, they appear to me to have had some machine work done on them.
(http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s5/bbarry74/bbarry74009/IMG_7677.jpg)
Title: Re: Boiler plate flanging machine
Post by: Brendan Barry on August 24, 2016, 06:18:03 PM
Chuck those are flanging machine parts next to the turntable wheels but there has been no machine work done to the parts yet.

The basic frame of the flanging machine was assembled today.

Jonthan working on assembling the frame parts.

(http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s5/bbarry74/bbarry74003/IMG_7762.jpg)

Frame assembled and stood up.

(http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s5/bbarry74/bbarry74003/IMG_7815.jpg)

(http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s5/bbarry74/bbarry74003/IMG_7822.jpg)

(http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s5/bbarry74/bbarry74003/IMG_7825.jpg)

(http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s5/bbarry74/bbarry74003/IMG_7818.jpg)
Title: Re: Boiler plate flanging machine
Post by: Chuck Watford on August 24, 2016, 07:25:53 PM
That is some very clean cuts. I know you said flame cuts in the first post, but looks almost like water jet! It will be interesting to watch this machine go together. Thanks!
Title: Re: Boiler plate flanging machine
Post by: Wayne Laepple on August 24, 2016, 08:25:54 PM
WOW!
Title: Re: Boiler plate flanging machine
Post by: Robert Hale on August 25, 2016, 05:18:32 AM
Will the entire machine be finish welded together?
Title: Re: Boiler plate flanging machine
Post by: Jason M Lamontagne on August 25, 2016, 06:40:09 AM
We don't intend to; it's designed so mechanical fastenings do all the structural work, and welds are only used to hold things together for assembly, positioning, etc.  To provide enough weld to do any structural good in a machine of this scale would be to provide a LOT of weld, so we designed around it.  If there are any unexpected problems, welding is an option.

See ya
Jason
Title: Re: Boiler plate flanging machine
Post by: Robert Hale on August 25, 2016, 08:04:44 AM
Got it. I now see the pipe spacers and the small welds. I wonder if you could scale the plans down for this to 1/4 scale to make a home version of this monster.  8)
Title: Re: Boiler plate flanging machine
Post by: Roger Cole on August 25, 2016, 10:23:02 AM
For those of us not familiar with boiler construction, what exactly will this machine do?  It reminds me of a giant C-clamp on steroids.  I am assuming it will put a 90 degree bend at the end of a thick piece of boiler plate (but you know what happens when we assume).  Do you have a photo of a flanged boiler plate?
Title: Re: Boiler plate flanging machine
Post by: Joe Fox on August 25, 2016, 10:57:48 AM
Yes, this will be used to fabricate 90 degree flanges for items such as the backhead sheet, etc. When #9's boiler was made it took a lot of man power and a lot of heat to form the flange.
Title: Re: Boiler plate flanging machine
Post by: John Scott on August 28, 2016, 06:15:16 AM
Caution may be needed, though, as cold flanging can cause crack initiation. Pre-heating should be considered for boiler components.
Title: Re: Boiler plate flanging machine
Post by: Ken Fleming on August 28, 2016, 10:26:16 AM
Would other projects see a need for our machine and thus rent or barter for its use?
Title: Re: Boiler plate flanging machine
Post by: Harold Downey on September 22, 2016, 01:39:12 PM
Eight patterns being finished for plate flanger:

5 anvil faces, 3 die inserts (for the bending part of the machine).

All for #10 boiler.     No. 11 will require another set, since boiler diameter is larger.
Title: Re: Boiler plate flanging machine
Post by: Brendan Barry on October 30, 2016, 05:13:53 PM
Flanging machine assembly is moving along. The hydraulic cylinders are in and the crosshead for the flanging linkage is installed. The rest of the pieces for the flanging linkage are bored for their assembly pins and just need to be drilled and tapped for grease fittings. The rest of the linkage and the anvil shoud be installed this week and we will move onto plumbing the hydraulics.

(http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s5/bbarry74/bbarry74006/IMG_9443.jpg)

(http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s5/bbarry74/bbarry74006/IMG_9457.jpg)

(http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s5/bbarry74/bbarry74006/IMG_9452.jpg)
Title: Re: Boiler plate flanging machine
Post by: Bob Holmes on October 30, 2016, 07:03:38 PM
Truly amazing...can't wait to see it in action.  Once again, an innovative approach by our museum...
Title: Re: Boiler plate flanging machine
Post by: Roger Cole on October 31, 2016, 09:30:46 AM
Any estimates on how many tons of force this machine will be able to generate?
Title: Re: Boiler plate flanging machine
Post by: Harold Downey on October 31, 2016, 10:30:05 AM
The cylinders are rated at 75 tons, but we are planning to run them at 50 tons.  The bending force developed is 135 tons due to the mechanical advantage of the toggle mechanism.
Title: Re: Boiler plate flanging machine
Post by: Paul Uhland on October 31, 2016, 11:53:49 AM
Are you sure you haven't worked on space shuttles?  ;)
Amazing.
Title: Re: Boiler plate flanging machine
Post by: Brendan Barry on November 01, 2016, 05:45:02 PM
The anvil and linkage is now installed in the flanging machine.

(http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s5/bbarry74/bbarry74009/IMG_9481.jpg)

(http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s5/bbarry74/bbarry74009/IMG_9519.jpg)

(http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s5/bbarry74/bbarry74009/IMG_9490.jpg)
Title: Re: Boiler plate flanging machine
Post by: Robert Hale on November 01, 2016, 07:41:18 PM
The world's biggest toe nail clipper.  ;D

Looking good.
Title: Re: Boiler plate flanging machine
Post by: Paul Uhland on November 05, 2016, 01:03:26 PM
Can't wait to see how it woiks.  :o
Title: Re: Boiler plate flanging machine
Post by: Bob Holmes on November 05, 2016, 07:17:00 PM
Yes, please send out notices to everyone when you plan to first put it into operation.  We'll all want to see that.
Title: Re: Boiler plate flanging machine
Post by: Brendan Barry on January 05, 2017, 11:31:58 PM
The hydraulics for the flanging machine are plumbed and the die sets for bending the sheets are on site.

(http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s5/bbarry74/bbarry74003/IMG_9781.jpg)

(http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s5/bbarry74/bbarry74003/IMG_9797.jpg)

Die sets.

(http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s5/bbarry74/bbarry74003/IMG_9791.jpg)
Title: Re: Boiler plate flanging machine
Post by: Gordon Cook on January 06, 2017, 07:17:28 PM
Looks like some sheet flanging is just around the bend.
 ;D
Thanks Brendan, for posting all the pictures.

Exciting to think we could have #10 back in service this year. While I enjoy running #9, and love that Portland Co. look, 10 is a perfect fit for our usual 2-3 car trains. And the cab is cooler in the summer, too!

Next up: how about a real trip hammer forge? That would be crowd pleaser.
Title: Re: Boiler plate flanging machine
Post by: Chuck Watford on January 23, 2017, 01:16:01 PM
Now you have me curious, what is that machine against the wall?
(http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/data/500/IMG_94811.jpg)
Title: Re: Boiler plate flanging machine
Post by: Jason M Lamontagne on January 23, 2017, 01:26:40 PM
That is a Hanna pneumatic squeeze riveter, given to us along with the Allen Portable long reach riveter, by Jim Hueber of Mack Brothers Boiler in Syracuse, NY.

It too will be used on the boiler projects.

Jason
Title: Re: Boiler plate flanging machine
Post by: James Patten on January 23, 2017, 02:16:32 PM
Another riveting machine.

Theoretically not as portable as the Allen Portable machine, but with the wheels I'd argue it makes it much more portable.
Title: Re: Boiler plate flanging machine
Post by: Stephen Piwowarski on January 29, 2017, 10:28:02 AM
However, the Hanna riveter was also designed to be hung from an overhead crane. The frame is an "aftermarket" invention.

Missing you all! Best wishes on a good convention weekend!
Steve
Title: Re: Boiler plate flanging machine
Post by: Jason M Lamontagne on January 29, 2017, 11:27:03 AM
Yes, the Hanna riveter will be hung from the overhead crane, floated off its frame, and used to rivet the mud rings.

Jason
Title: Re: Boiler plate flanging machine
Post by: Wayne Laepple on January 30, 2017, 10:41:57 AM
The Hanna riveter is what was known in the trade as a "bull riveter." I don't know why, however.
Title: Re: Boiler plate flanging machine
Post by: Brendan Barry on March 10, 2017, 10:58:41 PM
The flanger was tested for the first time last Tuesday. There are a couple of mechanical issues to address but the flanger successfully bent a piece of scrap boiler plate. Jason's pictures.

Piece of plate clamped on the anvil at the start of the bending process. The oil is from a loose hydraulic fitting on the clamping ram that has been fixed.

(http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s5/bbarry74/bbarry74002/IMG_0542.jpg)

Start of the bend.

(http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s5/bbarry74/bbarry74002/IMG_0541.jpg)

(http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s5/bbarry74/bbarry74002/IMG_0540.jpg)

Test bend complete.

(http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s5/bbarry74/bbarry74002/IMG_0539.jpg)

(http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s5/bbarry74/bbarry74002/IMG_0538.jpg)
Title: Re: Boiler plate flanging machine
Post by: Wayne Laepple on March 11, 2017, 06:54:23 PM
Thanks for the cool photos, Brendan. I can't wait to see this machine in action!
Title: Re: Boiler plate flanging machine
Post by: Roger Cole on March 11, 2017, 07:38:57 PM
That's a mighty hefty hunka metal to bend
Title: Re: Boiler plate flanging machine
Post by: Ken Fleming on March 11, 2017, 08:53:58 PM
Did you for magnaflux it for cracks? Or dye penetrate it.  Cracks are sneaky.
Title: Re: Boiler plate flanging machine
Post by: Paul Uhland on April 02, 2017, 11:36:21 AM
Now having a secure container to store stuff taking up increasingly needed machine shop space makes total sense. And you may discover yet another container(s)  would be useful, as did 2926.
And with present harsh local weather, seems ideal time to concentrate on the many present/coming indoor projects.  
Per weather (40f and rising for concrete work), will the floor slab pours  be done first, or will you start asap, working around them if possible?
Title: Re: Boiler plate flanging machine
Post by: Brendan Barry on April 19, 2017, 04:44:16 PM
To get a feel for operating the flanging machine a replica of number 10's firebox corner was laid out and flanged out of a piece of scrap plate today. Tomorrow the crew plans to flange the real firebox sheet. Jason's pictures.

(http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s5/bbarry74/bbarry74008/10boiler.jpg)

(http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s5/bbarry74/bbarry74008/10boiler2.jpg)
Title: Re: Boiler plate flanging machine
Post by: Benjamin Campbell on April 19, 2017, 05:07:45 PM
Looks perfect. Is it done cold or must the steel be heated?
Title: Re: Boiler plate flanging machine
Post by: Harold Downey on April 19, 2017, 07:51:13 PM
Not only cold, but Maine cold.  High probably 46 and windy.   The flanger area was chilly!   No heat involved in the flanging process.  It was done in about 4 distinct phases, so each about 22 degrees of bend.  Then a final pass through to smooth out any bumps that formed.  All in all, we are quite happy with how it went, and what we learned will make the actual first boiler sheet flanging go much better.  Dimensionally, it came out very good too. 
Title: Re: Boiler plate flanging machine
Post by: John Kokas on April 19, 2017, 08:11:43 PM
Is there any heat treating planned to relieve stress points after flanging?
Title: Re: Boiler plate flanging machine
Post by: Jason M Lamontagne on April 20, 2017, 05:28:23 AM
The ASME Code defines a minimum bend radius where the internal stresses from cold bending are acceptable.  It has to do with how much the metal is stretched/ compressed at the extreme surfaces.  Our sheets are all bent at or above that minimum.

See ya
Jason
Title: Re: Boiler plate flanging machine
Post by: Dave Crow on April 20, 2017, 07:16:49 AM
Harold, it appears your patterns for the dies were a large part of the reason the formed sheet looks so good!  Congratulations.

Dave Crow
Title: Re: Boiler plate flanging machine
Post by: Brendan Barry on April 21, 2017, 10:00:47 AM
The machine was put to work yesterday flanging one of no. 10's firebox sheets.

(http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s5/bbarry74/bbarry74010/IMG_0675.jpg)

(http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s5/bbarry74/bbarry74010/IMG_0666.jpg)

(http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s5/bbarry74/bbarry74010/IMG_0663.jpg)

(http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s5/bbarry74/bbarry74010/IMG_0677.jpg)

(http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s5/bbarry74/bbarry74010/IMG_0686.jpg)

(http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s5/bbarry74/bbarry74010/IMG_0695.jpg)

(http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s5/bbarry74/bbarry74010/IMG_0702.jpg)

(http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s5/bbarry74/bbarry74010/IMG_0710.jpg)

(http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s5/bbarry74/bbarry74010/IMG_0797.jpg)

(http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s5/bbarry74/bbarry74010/IMG_0804.jpg)

(http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s5/bbarry74/bbarry74010/IMG_0814.jpg)

(http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s5/bbarry74/bbarry74010/IMG_0815.jpg)
Title: Re: Boiler plate flanging machine
Post by: Rick Sisson on April 21, 2017, 04:15:48 PM
Can we get a report from Harold, Eric, and Jason on how well the flanging process is going? Any surprises?
How much time is devoted to preparation (layout, machine setup, etc.) vs. actual flanging?
Also, can you describe the die(s) that are used to form those beautiful corner bends?
Thanks.
Title: Re: Boiler plate flanging machine
Post by: Jason M Lamontagne on April 21, 2017, 06:14:35 PM
I'll try; Harold and Eric can chime in with their thoughts to if they wish.

Careful layout is important (somewhat obvious I suppose).  First, the exact shape of the desired flange is drawn on the sheet. In this case, it is traced from the one piece firebox, as the actual firebox shape is a little different than the print.  This final flange shape is drawn as the inside surface of the flange.  Once that's done, the centers of rotation are determined for the curved areas.  We then pick a standard offset from the flange line.  For straight areas, the offset line is parallel.  For curved areas, the standard offset is swung as an arc off the center of rotation.  Points of tangency, centerljnes, and sometimes another bisecting set of lines, are drawn on both the flange edge and the offset line.

The pointer on the flanger anvil is set at the offset distance from the face of the die being used. 

The toggle is brought down to 90 degrees, the anvil brought up to one sheet thickness away from the toggle shoe face, and the backside of the anvil blocked to that location off the anvil stop.  That's 0 location for that operation.  The anvil is then blocked either in by 3", and the plate bent about 20 degrees at each index mark for that operation.  The anvil is then backed off to 0 + 2" and bent to about 45 degrees.  On the easier curves, we then back off to 0 + 1" and bend to about 75 degrees.  On harder bends, adjacent areas must be bent first. 

As expected, some buckling develops on the sharp corners.  Here's the cool part:  the flanger's available 200 tons exerted on the flange simply smushed those bumps flat.  Pretty much like they never existed. 

The flanger never maxed out, but does exert more effort when bending more plate on a curve, against adjacent areas which aren't flanged as much.  Again, expected. 

We're achieving exact knuckle radii and flange locations within 1/32". 

Our indexing method of lining up index prick punches to the pointer, under the plate, is a little tedious, but is a very direct method.  We're considering going to a template and follower system for flanged plates requiring tighter tolerances. 

It's been a lot of fun finally seeing this machine in use.  I've had it in mind since 2006, when we hot formed No 9's flanged boiler plates. 

See ya
Jason
Title: Re: Boiler plate flanging machine
Post by: Jason M Lamontagne on April 21, 2017, 06:24:40 PM
After roughly describing the layout method, Harold actually performed all the layout work.  Very well executed, and refined as he went along. 

We've found it best to use a die which matches the shell radius for each area.  It's possible to use one with more radius, but aligning the plate for subsequent hits is much harder, due to undesired bend start locations on either side of center from the hit using an incorrect die. 

The nice corners are a 6" shell radius, formed on a die with the same radius.

Harold predicted this detail and made patterns for all of 10's various shell diameters on the flanged plates.

We haven't really experimented yet with using dies that have a close shell radius.  That will determine if we can, for example, use 10's 6" radius firebox corner die on 11's 8" radius firebox corners.

See ya
Jason
Title: Re: Boiler plate flanging machine
Post by: John Kokas on April 21, 2017, 06:50:27 PM
The results look fabulous.  Keep up the good work guys!  A side note question; as we get more adept at this process is there any possibility for future outside contract work?
Title: Re: Boiler plate flanging machine
Post by: Harold Downey on April 21, 2017, 07:34:54 PM
Some more details:

I probably spent an hour doing the layout on the rear door sheet (back inside of firebox), since it has 2 corners with 6" radius, top has 31" radius, sides have two straight sections separated by another small bit of 31" radius.   Then after some learning,  I needed to add more layout lines in the 6" corners, and also color code all the index marks, since it got very confusing which mark to use for a given bend operation.      Simpler parts take a lot less layout time. 

I overshot the mark a bit in making anvil dies and toggle dies.   I made a matching toggle die for each anvil die.  Up to now we have only needed a flat die on the toggle and the correct radius die on the anvil.  So that was good news for future projects.    I don't yet know what happens for inside radius situations like the throat sheet.  A radius die on the toggle is definitely needed, but is a flat die on the anvil good enough?   

We're still learning, and each sheet is unique in its own way.   We are taking about four steps for each bend, and sometimes another round to smooth out small bulges or imperfections. 

I'm looking forward to doing the backhead.  It has much longer flanges (for riveting), and really big bend radii, compared to the door sheet.   We may need to suspend it from the overhead crane, because it is substantially heavier too. 

The flanger is working marvelously.  It is yet another example of the WW&F spirit.   It was an ambitious project with more than a bit of risk, and it took a combination of many volunteer skills to carry out.  Kudos to Jason for the concept! 

Harold
Title: Re: Boiler plate flanging machine
Post by: John Scott on April 21, 2017, 08:17:26 PM
Impressive skills are on display, here.
Title: Re: Boiler plate flanging machine
Post by: John McNamara on April 21, 2017, 08:40:43 PM

As expected, some buckling develops on the sharp corners.  Here's the cool part:  the flanger's available 200 tons exerted on the flange simply smushed those bumps flat.  Pretty much like they never existed.  

{intervening text deleted}

We're achieving exact knuckle radii and flange locations within 1/32".

Is "smushing" legal in Maine?
I can remember many years ago, you and I used to joke that 1/32" was standard track crew tolerance. ;D

-John M
Title: Re: Boiler plate flanging machine
Post by: Jason M Lamontagne on April 21, 2017, 09:27:12 PM
Maybe it should have said "smooshing?"

Harold says tolerance for settings is +/- 0.000.  He's got me beat!

See ya
Jason
Title: Re: Boiler plate flanging machine
Post by: Roger Cole on April 22, 2017, 04:15:05 PM
What is the thickness of the steel plate you were flanging?
Title: Re: Boiler plate flanging machine
Post by: Harold Downey on April 22, 2017, 04:39:18 PM
3/8" - true for all of #10's sheets.   One sheet for #11 is 1/2"