W.W.&F. Discussion Forum

The Maine Narrow Gauges (Historic & Preserved) => Maine Narrow Gauge RR Co. & Museum => Topic started by: Matthew Gustafson on November 04, 2008, 11:19:22 PM

Title: #8 History?
Post by: Matthew Gustafson on November 04, 2008, 11:19:22 PM
Whats the history on #8 because Ive heard little about his/her staties?  :( ;) :) :)
Title: Re: #8 History?
Post by: Eric Bolton on November 05, 2008, 03:14:45 PM
Here is a quote from the book Two Feet to the Lakes on page 95. "Nonetheless, an order was dispatched to the Baldwin Locomotive Works for what was to be the last engine ever erected for any of the nation's 24-inch railways.........The new locomotive, No. 8, which arrived about the first of April 1924, was the largest of the Bridgton engines. The big 2-4-4T weighed nearly 38 tons, had 35-inch drivers, outside frame and Walschaert valve gear. Like No. 7, the new engine operated on 180 pounds of steam pressure to produce a tractive effort of 10,072 pounds. The rear tank of both locomtives held 1,000 gallons of water and 3,000 pounds of soft coal. No. 8 arrived with a steel cab, a feature that brought the price tag of the attractive machine to about $13,635. No. 8 completed the all-time Bridgton locomotive roster......."
Title: Re: #8 History?
Post by: Hans Brandes on November 05, 2008, 04:44:13 PM
#8 currently sits at the east end of our engine house. We looked into activating it for the NG convention last summer but the crown sheet is just too thin and rated out at only about 90 PSI, not enough to continue the effort of filing a waiver with the FRA for short term operation.

To bring it back to life would require essentially the same work being accomplished on #7: retubing, new crown sheet, replacing the crown sheet, etc. Can it be done? Sure...if anyone wants to fund this effort, we'd be more than happy to dive into this after we finish #7. Money talks.
Title: Re: #8 History?
Post by: Matthew Gustafson on December 11, 2008, 01:09:30 PM
Hey on a few photos showing #8 runing with engines #4 and visting engine from Sandy River #3. I though you said #8 has never been operated on the MNGM yet? :o ??? ???
Title: Re: #8 History?
Post by: Ed Lecuyer on December 11, 2008, 01:39:20 PM
Hi Matt,

You're getting your locos confused again. #3 is owned by MNG. It only recently was leased to Sandy River. It should be properly referred to as Monson #3 - as that was the road it ran for in Maine.

I *think* B&SR #8 ran a couple of times at MNG before the FRA decided to exercise jurisdiction over them.
Title: Re: #8 History?
Post by: Bill Piche on December 11, 2008, 02:01:08 PM
Hi Matt/Ed,

Let's see if I can answer this one.

Monson #3 was the first locomotive used at MNG after the move from Massachusetts to Portland, and was the primary motive power for just about every steam day from 1993 on. Monson #3 is also the engine that goes everywhere that there is a special event, as it is far and away the lightest of the 4 steam locomotives in the MNG collection. After the FRA hammer fell on the MNG, #3 was sent to Phillips on a short term lease. Since #3 wasn't up to FRA form 4 specifications, it was decided that #3 should go somewhere that it could be run, rather than just sit around in the engine house at MNG. Hence the lease with Sandy River.

B&SR #8 made the trip also in 1993, and was used on special occasions and as the secondary steam locomotive through the end of the 2002 season. By the end of the 2002 season, #8 had developed a steam leak somewhere on the engineer's side of the running gear. That problem led to the decision to move engine #7 to Maine early the following year. When the National Narrow Gauge convention was announced for Portland, Maine in 2007, a Form 4 waiver was applied for to put #8 back in steam for that week, but was withdrawn when crown sheet ultrasounds revealed that she would only be able to be steamed to approx 95 PSI.

Monson #4 made the trip in 1993 as well, but actually sat in the museum for a number of years next to the Rangely, and was taken out of "storage" in early 2002 and brought up to steam (up to steam, get it!) early that spring. When the FRA started to oversee the steam program at MNG in the winter of 03/04, it was decided that Monson #4 would require the least amount of money to bring up to code. She was thus put through the necessarry work and came out in time for the first steam day of 2004. Since then, Monson #4 has been the only Maine 2' steam engine to have an FRA Form 4 certification.

B&SR #7 was brought up from Edaville in the winter of 02/03 and was ready to be steamed up in April. #7 saw sporadic service throughout 2003, but had to be put on the shelf when the MNG came under FRA jurisdiction. In the spring of 2007, a pledge drive was started to help pay for the work that would bring #7 up to form 4 specifications. By December of 07, it was decided that sufficient funds had been raised to begin work, and the restoration began in January 08.
Title: Re: #8 History?
Post by: Mike Fox on December 11, 2008, 04:56:43 PM
Wow Bill. You must keep your note book handy to recall all that. I remember seeing #4 inside in the early years at MNG. The tank was repaired during that time.
Title: Re: #8 History?
Post by: Bill Piche on December 11, 2008, 05:22:51 PM
Thanks for the compliment, Mike. I actually have a bit of a knack for remembering that kinda stuff about the engines.

It's actually mostly from what I picked up from other volunteers (especially Steve Kohut, Rick Knight, Rich Currie, and Hans Brandes) that allowed me to fill in a bit of that. The rest of it I pieced together from photos on NERail and articles floating around here and there.

I personally had no idea that #4 had sat in the museum before I started volunteering with the steam crew.
Title: Re: #8 History?
Post by: Matthew Gustafson on December 11, 2008, 06:14:38 PM
Thanks Bill! I love the WW&F & MNGM because of Its engines and rolling stock. Thanks for a history note on #7 & #8 because they are my favorite 2 footers! I want to run them once I learn on how to drive a steam engine and when both are up and running again! :) ;) :D ;D
Title: Re: #8 History?
Post by: Matthew Gustafson on December 11, 2008, 06:19:02 PM
Oh and also WW&F #9 & #10 are also my favorite!   :o ::) :D ;D
Title: Re: #8 History?
Post by: Matthew Martin on December 11, 2008, 06:26:35 PM
I really like the monson engines.  :)
Title: Re: #8 History?
Post by: John McNamara on December 11, 2008, 06:41:51 PM
As I recall, one of the Monson engines was shipped across the country for a movie, commercial, or trade show. I've forgotten the details. Can anyone refresh my memory?

-John
Title: Re: #8 History?
Post by: Bill Piche on December 11, 2008, 07:59:23 PM
Thanks Bill! I love the WW&F & MNGM because of Its engines and rolling stock. Thanks for a history note on #7 & #8 because they are my favorite 2 footers! I want to run them once I learn on how to drive a steam engine and when both are up and running again! :) ;) :D ;D

Matthew,

Anyone can "pull the sticks" as some engineer's call it. The real learning happens in the years spent as a fireman. You learn everything that you possibly can on the left side. The move over to the right side is a great honor but also carries the incredible responsiblity of being an engineer.

If you want to just go for the experience of driving a steam locomotive, there are a few options out there where you can just show up and drive.

MNG has such a program (Warning: Shameless Plug): http://www.mngrr.org/guestengineer.html (http://www.mngrr.org/guestengineer.html)

Other places that I know of off the top of my head include the Essex Valley Railroad and the Nevada Northern Railroad.

All locations offer at least 1 hour at the throttle of a steam locomotive.

(Warning: Another Shameless Plug) I can personally tell you, no-one (myself included) who has ever been a guest engineer at MNG in my time has gone home unhappy. Your first experience in the guest engineer program at MNG would be driving one of the Monson locomotives (in this case #4). If you decided that you wanted to do the program again, and one of them is available for use, then MNG has what's called "alumni" guest engineer days, where you get to drive one of the beautiful Baldwins (in this case #7 when she's all done).

It's too bad you live out in the Mid-West, or else you'd be able to more easily get to one of these programs. Maybe there's one a little closer to where you live.
Title: Re: #8 History?
Post by: Matthew Gustafson on December 11, 2008, 09:59:42 PM
Sadly only one! But its my favorite The Illinois Railway Museum!  :( :) :D
Title: Re: #8 History?
Post by: Ken Fleming on December 11, 2008, 10:53:53 PM
In the days of steam on the Burlington Route (C.B. & Q.) in was not unusual to spent 20 or more years as a fireman before being prompted to engineer.  My father hired on the 'Q' in 1914 as a switchman.  When prompted to brakeman 1915, a head(end) brakeman sometimes shoveled as much coal as the fireman did on heavy freights with a hand fired engine or broken stoker.
Title: Re: #8 History?
Post by: Tom Casper on December 11, 2008, 11:01:25 PM
Sadly only one! But its my favorite The Illinois Railway Museum!  :( :) :D
Matt,  when will steam return to IRM?

Tom C.
Title: Re: #8 History?
Post by: Bill Sample on December 12, 2008, 12:21:05 PM
Thanks for the MNGRR review, Bill.  More eveidence that "the second coming" of the Maine Two-Footers has
an interesting history in itself.
Title: Re: #8 History?
Post by: Matthew Gustafson on December 13, 2008, 12:14:15 AM
Sadly only one! But its my favorite The Illinois Railway Museum!  :( :) :D
Matt,  when will steam return to IRM?

Tom C.
Sadly thats what I want to find out as well as you do! :( :(
Title: Re: #8 History?
Post by: Matthew Gustafson on January 07, 2009, 01:45:53 PM
Is #8 going to run this year while #7 is geting restored? ??? :)
Title: Re: #8 History?
Post by: Ed Lecuyer on January 07, 2009, 01:51:22 PM
Since #8 needs even more work than #7, the answer would be, "no."
Title: Re: #8 History?
Post by: Bill Piche on January 07, 2009, 03:58:07 PM
No #8 won't be running, #7 probably won't be finished this year, either. The boiler work will probably be done, but there are a LOT of parts that have to go back on in the order that they came off the frame, beginning with the boiler.

Baring any new developments, however, #4 will be back again this spring, ready to haul happy families up and down the Eastern Promenade in Portland.
Title: Re: #8 History?
Post by: Matthew Gustafson on January 07, 2009, 06:16:48 PM
Will #8 get the much needed overhall after #7 comes back from the restoration shops in the future once we start with the funds to get it to FRA standards? ??? :)
Title: Re: #8 History?
Post by: Hans Brandes on January 08, 2009, 01:20:39 PM
From someone who has been in the business world for 25+ years...it's all about the money. If you know of someone with deep pockets out there, have them get in touch with me. How fast we can do this is a function of how much money is available.

- Currently, there is $0 which means zero possibility of this happening.
- With some money, we can do this as we do other projects by maximiizing the number of volunteer hours in order to save as much money as possible.
- With lots of money, we could have #8 sent off site and be completely redone with professional money.
Title: Re: #8 History?
Post by: Matthew Gustafson on May 08, 2009, 02:03:46 PM
Hi Matt/Ed,
B&SR #8 made the trip also in 1993, and was used on special occasions and as the secondary steam locomotive through the end of the 2002 season. By the end of the 2002 season, #8 had developed a steam leak somewhere on the engineer's side of the running gear. That problem led to the decision to move engine #7 to Maine early the following year. When the National Narrow Gauge convention was announced for Portland, Maine in 2007, a Form 4 waiver was applied for to put #8 back in steam for that week, but was withdrawn when crown sheet ultrasounds revealed that she would only be able to be steamed to approx 95 PSI.

So will this problem be fixed once we have enough money to restore her back to operation with its sister #7. Plus can #8 pull more cars then #7 can since its the largest suriving steamer in the USA or do they both have the same pulling power?  ??? :)
Title: Re: #8 History?
Post by: Bill Piche on May 08, 2009, 02:30:16 PM
So will this problem be fixed once we have enough money to restore her back to operation with its sister #7. Plus can #8 pull more cars then #7 can since its the largest suriving steamer in the USA or do they both have the same pulling power?  ??? :)

Hi Matt,
As Hans and I have stated before, anything is possible as long as there is money to foot the bill.

As for pulling power, for all intents and purposes, #7 and #8 are the same locomotive, it's just that #8 has a bigger boiler. They have the same size drive wheels (I know), cylinder size and stroke (I believe), and the same operating pressure (that last one assuming no problems and that the boilers were new, like they were in 1960). That eliminates any possible mechanical advantages. However, #8 is 5 tons heavier than #7, so it can probably pull a bit more than #7 could in similar conditions.

Anyone else have anything else to add on that?
Title: Re: #8 History?
Post by: Hans Brandes on May 10, 2009, 08:24:18 AM
Yes. I emphasize what Bill said. Right now #8's pulling power is zero. It sits in an engine house, silent and cold due to lack of money to bring it back into service. It could be brought to life. We are seeing this with #7. #8 needs many of the same repairs as #7. Send us a check for $60,000 and that can change.