W.W.&F. Discussion Forum
WW&F Railway Museum Discussion => Museum Discussion => Topic started by: Ted Miles on February 16, 2009, 11:11:09 PM
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I would like to go at this question from the other direction. I have read that the WW&F Museum bought a pair of Jackson & Sharp passenger trucks from the Edaville, USA operation. So the question is what car will they be used under?
Is it something existing or one of the several proposed cars?
The Museum's Five Year Plan has some cars listed as possible ways to increase the collection with useful additions to the rolling stock. Let's refer to that!
Ted Miles
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I believe that they are going to be for coach 8. This would then free up a pair of arch bar trucks.
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I think the trucks need a little work before installation. But I can't remember what.
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Hopefully Jason will chime in, but I know the wheels need turning - several are cupped instead of having the proper tapered tread profile. In addition, they need a thorough cleaning, scraping, and repainting. There might be some missing pieces, plus we need to have brake components ready to install as well.
I think the intention is to clean them up as time and funding allows; anyone have some spare money? Once ready to go, they might serve as the basis to drive us towards designing a replica of Combine #6.
Coach 8 rides pretty well on the freight car trucks; after all, it is based on a freight car underframe and bolster arrangement.
Dave Crow
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Perhaps before we get into building a new car, we should have everything we've already got in tip top shape. Like repairing and installing those J&S trucks under coach 8. I bet she'll ride smoother than a babys bottom with those underneath her!
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Perhaps before we get into building a new car, we should have everything we've already got in tip top shape. Like repairing and installing those J&S trucks under coach 8. I bet she'll ride smoother than a babys bottom with those underneath her!
Not just that. It will just look right. Passenger cars dont ride on arch bars.
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Has anyone given thought to "reverse engineering" those trucks to make copies before installing them? It would be easier to do with them out from under a coach than the other way around. ;)
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There has been discussion about saving the J&S trucks to place under a new passenger car when one is built. If the museum built a new car like the Taconet or a replica of coach 2 the trucks would go under that car. The biggest expense in passenger rolling stock is the trucks, draft gear and brake rigging. Having a spare set of trucks is a good incentive to build a new car. A new coach 2 would look great running with coach 3 although it wouldn't help with the wheelchair access issue. Coach 8 is a beautiful car but it's not a historic car. The J&S trucks would look good and work well under coach 8 but if the they help push us towards the construction of a classic passenger car maybe we should keep them spare. Pete's option is good in that we would eventually have good passenger trucks under coach 8 and another set for the to be built car. Of course this is years in the future... we need a good car storage building for any new rolling stock and much money to fund the project. That won't happen unless we can find a corporate sponsor or benefactor.
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Bob Troup and his crew up in Philips "reverse engineered" a batch of freight car trucks. I'm pretty sure those guys would need passenger trucks also. It might be worth discussing the idea of combining forces to produce the necessary parts/patterns/castings to ease the cost of ordering whatever parts would need to be made/cast comercialy.
They may even be able to help us out with freight car truck parts.
Either way, it's worth talking to them.
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There are J & S-looking patterns in the shop over at Boothbay...not sure which car they were created for. Jason?
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perhaps we could get two or three pairs of J&S trucks made. That way we have enough for any future passenger stock we may build and a spare set such that a car isn't out of service for truck repairs. Just switch out a set and fix the spares. I'm sure multiples will decrease the cost per unit.
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I doubt we'd put enough mileage on a new set of trucks in any of our lifetimes for there to be need for major repairs.
But if you want multiple pairs of trucks, we can build 'em. Send money.
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If I'm not mistaken, several of the MNG coaches ride on freight car trucks. The J&S trucks provide a much better ride. The more pairs of J&S passenger car trucks built at a time, the lower the unit price.
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If I'm not mistaken, several of the MNG coaches ride on freight car trucks. The J&S trucks provide a much better ride. The more pairs of J&S passenger car trucks built at a time, the lower the unit price.
And I think that's what both Matt and I are ultimately getting at. There IS a demand for them to be made in large enugh numbers to be worthwhile!
So THIS is one project I can see going off jointly and benefitting many. ;)
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Cosmo, in economics there's a difference between ascertaining an actual demand for something, and believing that there should be a demand. Unfortunately, I suspect that MNG currently has more pressing financial needs than building replica trucks for cars that don't go anywhere.
There's been a bit of a tendancy in some of these discussions to refer in general to equalized passenger car trucks with primary and secondary suspensions as "J&S trucks." However, only a few Maine 2' Jackson & Sharp passenger cars exist today without correct trucks; fortunately W&Q #3 is not one of these. As I recall, the MNG collection includes two Jackson & Sharp cars - the Rangeley, which still has its right trucks, and the SR&RL combine with the odd rebuilt arched roof, which does not. I believe what's left, post-Edaville "preservation," of the former B&SR baggage car now at Boothbay was built by J&S and, when seen last fall, was riding on freight car trucks. The one remaining original coach still at Edaville was built by Jackson & Sharp's successor American Car & Foundry and ran on original trucks until fairly recently; presumably they still exist.
The remaining Maine 2' passenger cars that have lost their original trucks were built either by Laconia (two at Phillips, one at Boothbay) or Billmeyer & Small (two at Portland, one at Phillips). These would have had Laconia trucks or Billmeyer & Small trucks, respectively. One of the Laconia coaches at Phillips has inherited a pair of passenger trucks from the Laconia-built B&SR coach that ran at Edaville as the "Elthea" before being burned down to the frame. I am unaware that Jackson & Sharp supplied "J&S trucks" to any other builders of 2' passenger cars. Thus, the maximum potential joint demand from other organizations for J&S trucks appears to be two pairs. Unfortunately, since these are the only correct trucks for any future replica WW&F coaches, it looks like the museum will be more or less on its own, although there's already the one spare pair in stock thanks to Allen Fisher. Whether it's "worthwhile" to make any more is really not a question of economics. But I'll bet if you can find someone willing to supply the money, it would happen sooner than later...
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Well, since we seem to have been poorly informed about passenger cars trucks on the two-footers, perhaps we can agree that freight car trucks are more or less inappropriate for passenger cars, and equipping passenger cars with trucks that will improve the ride quality, in addition to being more authentic than South African arch bars trucks, is not in and of itself a bad thing.
Perhaps Mr. Chase will educate us to the stylistic idiosyncrasies of Billmeyer & Small and Laconia trucks as as compared to the dread Jackson & Sharp trucks. I would hazard a guess that B&S trucks might be a type of wood-beam truck. The point is, we've got the J&S trucks in hand, giving us the opportunity to reproduce them.
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If I'm not mistaken, the two J&S trucks at Sheepscot came from under the SR&RL coach still at Edaville, They do need extensive overhaul, but will be excellent for patterns for new trucks for new coaches we will build in ten or fifteen years. With present ridership trends and our special events that create heavy ridership, the present passenger car fleet on the WW&F is adequate to handle foreseeable needs. Thus we have plenty of time to raise money for new trucks , and new cars. To refurbish the existing trucks for Coach 8 will require $12,000 in donations (and the available volunteer time). Now can we close this thread and think about things we need to do in the next 5-10 years, and raise the money to do them,
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[Moderator's Note]
A request has been made to lock this thread.
I don't take that lightly. Let's keep the discussion positive and civil. No need for excessive drooling over what we could/should build. We also don't need to add items to other museum's needs.
The forum is a great way for less-than-regular volunteers to kibitz and hobnob. It's also easy to dream (even aloud) on what is possible with the WW&F - and forget about what it takes to run the operation we already have. I know, until I started showing up at Sheepscot more regularly, I did the same thing.
Let's remember that this is a public forum for all the world to see. Let's focus on what needs to be done, and how to get it accomplished. We have great leadership and a wonderful core mission. All we need now is continued teamwork and cooperation, and maybe we can see additional replica coaches in our lifetime.
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I too am interested in the differences between the different brands of passenger car trucks. Also were there design changes over time? I know that even in five years you can find major changes in machines.
Mikechoochoo Nix
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Matthew,
you should read the Edaville book by Linnwood Moody circa 1947. Bosicly it shows what they had when they started Edaville. A few passenger cars and a lot of freight cars.
Over the years their Shop turned out a number of "passenger cars" including the #8 which rode on freight car (arch bar trucks) which are not right for passenger cars except the occasional caboose. Even there the cabooses usually got better springs than the freight cars had.
Here is the roster in the book:
four locomotives which you know about
Freight: These are mainly B&SR cars
Box : 15 cars
Flat: 14 cars
Excurson: 4 cars
Tank: 2 cars
Caboose: 557 ex SR & RL 557
101 ex B & SR 101
Snow plow 2 cars
Flanger 1 car
So they had an abundence of freight car trucks to use on the home built cars. Some of the home built cars were pretty nice like the #8 others were pretty crude like the #202 that the WW& F got from Portland and took apart for mainly the trucks. You can see more of them down in Portland in the Maine Narrow Gauge collection.
Ted Miles, WW&F Life member and Maine Narrow Gauge collector
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At the risk of further chastisement, I am not quite ready to let this topic die. More than two years ago, I began disassembly of the J&S trucks at the behest of the Chief Mechanical Officer. It was my understanding at that time that the trucks would be repaired sooner rather than later and be placed beneath coach 8 or caboose 320. It later came to light that there was some problem with the gauge of the wheel sets in those trucks, and work was halted.
Since then, the trucks have languished on track 7, with the parts I removed perched on top. I am concerned that at some point, someone will need a piece of flat or bar stock and will simply walk away with some component, leaving someone else to figure out what happened to it. Had I known that work was going to be truncated, not to be picked up for an extended period of time, I would never have disassembled the trucks to begin with.
Now we learn that the trucks may be held for five years or perhaps longer, until the need for additional passenger rolling stock is evident. If that's the case, the parts should be put back in place and wired fast so they don't accidentally become separated from the trucks.
But -- wouldn't it make sense to overhaul the trucks sooner rather than later and install them under coach 8? There is at least one spare arch bar truck on hand, from which the wheels (presumably of correct gauge) could be removed and installed in one J&S truck. The second arch bar truck could be removed from no. 8 and its wheels also taken for use in the other J&S truck. With some advance planning, I think this could be accomplished in just a few weeks, since the wheels would presumably not require reprofiling. Making the trade amongst the first arch bar/J&S trucks would be a lesson, allowing the same operation to go more quickly the second time around. During these overhauls, the necessary brake beams and rigging could be installed on the J&S trucks.
Just asking. Seems a shame for these valuable trucks to sit around and rust for years before use.
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Ok, I definitely agree with Wayne that the trucks should not only be not wasted, but that some action be taken to keep them more or less intact until they are (hopefully "sooner than later") refurbished for use.
I would also like to know the differences between the diffetent makes (B&S vs J&S etc) of passenger trucks, if for no other reason than my own education on the subject.
I suppose what I'm most interested to know is, can one redily tell the difference by just looking (under the car) when the trucks are installed?
While the "demand" for exact replica J&S trucks may not be as great as I imagined, there certainly seems to be some shared need between all the museums for good, solid passenger style trucks.
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My understanding is that the trucks in question are from B&SR Baggage Car 11, now at Boothbay Railway as a coach.
The wheelsets need to be turned, but there is plenty of material left to do this. I don't recall any backgauge issue. One wheelset actually made it's way into the 24" lathe- but the set up was very impractical- that lathe is really too small for wheelwork unless in a real pinch. The big lathe we now have will make this more feasible.
The remainder of the trucks are somewhat beaten up but the core parts are entirely servicable. The plan we have had right along is to thoroughly restore these trucks to like-new condition, as opposed to doing as little as possible to make them servicable. This will mean complete dismantling, straightening of bar frame members, re-fabrication of all wood components, brake gear and swing gear per the J&S drawing. We've seen this as prime opportunity to get a pair of passenger trucks in perfectly servicable and historic condition- instead of throwing them together as quickly as possible- to end up with just another pair of servicable, but cobbled old trucks. I don't think we should waste opportunity to do this right and be proud of it.
As such- rushing to get these trucks under coach 8 doesn't make a lot of sense. Our plan has indeed been to put these trucks under a coach 2 replica. Having trucks ready would be a major incentive to this project- and we're currently working on rounding out the few J&S coach drawings we have.
Even if they end up under coach 8- I still think we should do it right.
No 9 has taken the priority over the truck project. Our shop plan has been to pull the trucks into Bay 4 for their thorough overhaul once No 9 is out the door. Mix in railcars, No 10 maintenance- the occasional #52 failure, and other needs... There is only so much volunteer resource available and we set our priorities, and we make our decisions based on the information and resources available to us. Please- let's all keep that in mind when revisiting those decisions.
Jason
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Thanks very much for setting the record straight regarding the J&S trucks, Jason. I'm almost sure I was told somewhere along the line that there was an issue with the gauge of the wheels, but it could be my advancing age is messing with my mind. Anyway, I'm glad to know the trucks are in the queue for overhaul somewhat sooner rather than later. I'll continue on the record as favoring their use under coach 8 until such time as they are needed for a replica of some original WW&F coach -- unless in the meantime the decision is reached to build new trucks. Now, if could just do something about those longitudinal seats in coach 8.....
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Those longitudinal seats work great for capacity. Cheek to cheek seating.
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Those longitudinal seats work great for capacity. Cheek to cheek seating.
They are rather ugly and not at all as classy and comfortable as the seats in coach 3. However, they are good for capacity, as Mike notes, and they are good for families or other groups that want to sit together with some "cheek to cheek" and some across the aisle.
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Cushions might be nice!
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I heard #8 had cushions at Edaville.
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Cushions might be nice!
We might be able to get a good deal on a few dozen of those joke cushions that make a farting noise when people sit on them....
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Coach 8 is a fairly decent representation of Coach 4 from the original railroad. Since Coach 4 had seats like Coach 3, I'd like to see it have real seats in it as well, someday. To the average visitor, they will never notice the difference between a freight archbar truck or a J&S passenger truck. They will notice, and appreciate, having replica seats to sit in.
It's not like we need the extra passenger capacity like Edaville did when they built the coach.
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That is a good point.
I belive either MNGRR or SRRP had frame pieces cast for coach seats, I wonder if they still have the patterns/plans?
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This evening I had an opportunity to look at this thread after several days' absence. I'm saddened that the information I provided regarding passenger car trucks and manufacturers was ill-recieved by another occasional participant. Thank you, Allen and Ed, for helping to refocus the discussion, and to Jason for his technical update.
Cosmo, you ask a worthwhile question. The mechanical differences between the three manufacturer's trucks are not significant, and I believe all share a 4' wheelbase. Nevertheless, details such as equalizer profiles, pedestal shape, dimensions and so forth all differ to certain degrees. Photos and drawings, albeit small-scale, of all three types may be seen in the two Peter S. Barney passenger car books available in the gift shop. In a nutshell, you could probably put your antique Chevrolet onto Ford running gear and make it work just fine. But from a preservation/restoration perspective, that would be all you had.
Any replica WW&F Jackson & Sharp passenger car, while doubtless still years in the future, will obviously benefit from having the correct trucks as Jason indicates, just as any correct restoration of different-origin cars at the other museums in the future also would. One may note that the several replica freight car trucks built at Phillips in recent years are not B&SR swing motion types; the obvious reason being that's not what the SR&RL used. People participate in, contribute to, and enjoy the results of museum-quality restorations and replicas when the focus is on accuracy. A replica #2 coach would presumably not be sheathed in Texture 1-11 nor have lighting fixtures from Home Depot; most WW&F members have a fairly high threshold for what constitutes "good enough."
I hope that in the meanwhile, any differences of opinions on this or any subject will not prompt recourse to formal titles and surnames in response. For the record, I have attended each spring and fall work session for about four years now and have greatly enjoyed working with the people I've met of all backgrounds and temperments. Due to distance, I am unable to participate more frequently, but I am actively involved in passenger car restoration work elsewhere nearly every weekend (alongside four other WW&F members). I read this forum often but post infrequently; sometimes one may learn more by listening, thus avoiding "the risk of further chastisement" altogether.
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[Moderator's Note]
Jon, as moderator, please allow me to apologize for anything that I may (or may not) have done to make you feel "chastised" on this forum. We welcome all points of view. While I tend to let posts stand unedited, I have occasionally edited out inappropriate comments or deleted posts altogether that were not helpful to the discussion.
I re-read Wayne's posting that you refer to in yours, and while I can understand why you may have taken it as a chastisement, I do not believe that is the actual case. In fact, Wayne and I had a private email conversation regarding some grant possibilities - and an I confident that he meant no harm. He, like you (and I, for that matter), is "from away" and only can make it to Sheepscot on occasion.
I think that it is important for everyone to remember that written communication - especially an informal medium like email or a discussion forum - has its drawbacks. One is that inflections of text are completely wiped away.
Consider the following sentence:
I love the WW&F.
Read it 3 times, placing the most emphasis on a different word.
*I* love the WW&F.
I *love* the WW&F.
I love the *WW&F*.
See how the meaning changes? This gets lost in a simple text message.
Everyone who participates on this forum wants the very best for the WW&F. Otherwise we would waist our time on some other hobby, web site, or what-not. We want everyone to feel free to speak their mind on this forum without fear of repercussions, etc.; like a family gathered around the dinner table for some conversation. The parents (or in our case BOD) still make the final decisions, but everyone listens to each other's cares and concerns. Also, like the dinner table, we swap stories, tell jokes, and enjoy basic fellowship with our WW&F family.
I think that this forum is a great medium for members near and far to get their regular WW&F "fix" when they can't be at the museum. I'd also like to see it expand so that members "from away" can be found to take on small to medium size projects that don't have to be done at Sheepscot. (Current examples of things taken care of from "away" members include forum moderation, grant writing, pattern making, newsletter mailing, and many other tasks.)
Finally, if anyone has any comments, or feels that something is out of line, please PM me, or email me at ed@spongeawareness.com. I try to keep on top of all the conversations, but that isn't always possible.
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Perhaps If the trucks do get overhauled before we are ready to build a new coach the can be used under #8 temporarily. and when it does come time to build our new car we can pull them out and use them under the new coach.
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Folks,
The Colorado Railroad Museum has built six pairs of J&S passenger car trucks for 36" gauge track. Thus they have a pattern ready made.
Can anyone say if this pattern and frame would be the same for a two foot gauge
railroad? To put it another way does the track gauge change the shape of the frames?
They are being used under D&RGW passenger cars; the freight cars trucks are used under other cars in their large collection.
Ted Miles, WW&F Life member
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Having seen the 3' trucks at CRM, they are huge compared to 2' trucks. It appears nothing is usable as the pedestals are much larger.
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Ira is right. I've seen the 3' gauge passenger trucks the Friends of the C&TS are working on at Antonito, and they're huge in comparison to our 2' gauge J&S trucks, in terms of both the pedestal castings and the frames. I can't see how they could share any parts in common.
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The greatest obstacle to our manufacturing new J&S-design trucks is the cost of wheels. I have gotten quotes from two commercial manufacturers of railroad wheels -- both will make 20-inch wheels for us. The cost is $2,100 per wheel, with a minimum order of 20 wheels. That makes it $42,000 just for the wheels. Unless we can persuade another museum or two to partner with us, we're stymied in that regard. Other than the wheels, there are castings to be made, but we know how to make that happen. The equalizers would need to be water-jet cut from plate or forged, and we know how that can happen. The wheels are the problem.
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This may be a dumb question, but if modern forged wheels are so prohibitively expensive, then why can't we go back to the 19th century and use cast iron wheels? I know that chilled cast iron wheels can't be turned, but is there some other problem with the material that makes its use inadvisable? We could just make a 20" wheel pattern and have as many cast as we might want at a small fraction of the cost.
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I have a source for cast iron wheels but steel wheels have a TWO year lead time according to my source..
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Just a question guys,
If US steel wheels cost $2100 per wheel, have you entertained inquiring overseas? 2ft, 20" wheels are not rocket science meant to go 300km/h. I would imagine that there are suppliers in Brazil, China, Romania or other East European suppliers that could beat that price delivered, question is probably import tax or does the WW&F have a benefit as a 501c org?
If you are interested and not, strictly "buy American", then I could ask contacts that I have in Brazil and Romania. But I might need a drawing of what you want, with rough specs, especially the rough axle hole and tread/flange requirements.
We have some beautiful original J&S 60cm trucks on the EFPP in Brazil, some even with spoked wheels http://www.thorsteamworld.com/photos/pbm.asp?model=Passenger (http://www.thorsteamworld.com/photos/pbm.asp?model=Passenger)
Naturally they are not for sale, but I imagine that some parts could be cheaper if made abroad.
cheers from the stolen moments from the work desk in Germany
Thor
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Hey Thor --
We may decide to go with chilled cast iron wheels using a pattern produced in house, though there are certain disadvantages with chilled wheels as noted elsewhere in this thread. I imagine the main reason we haven't looked beyond our own shores for sources is our inexperience in dealing with overseas suppliers, shipping, tariffs, customs, etc. I made some efforts last year to secure wheels from South Africa, but the difficulties not only with shipping, but also with the various bureaucracies that would be involved in the process, discouraged me from going much further than determining that, while it was possible to accomplish, such a shipment should only be attempted by someone with a very long life expectancy to wait while all the agencies had their say and signed off. I'm already old, so that wasn't going to be me!
That said, I believe we have drawings of the Portland-style wheel, and if a copy was forwarded to you, it may be worth looking into.
Cheers -- Wayne
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Wayne,
I can sympathize with you, when I was in Brazil, I tried to help them buy 5 9" Westinghouse Air Pump copies since they have a shortage in Brazil due to many/most of the steam engines were retired with vacuum brake equipment, but the Brazilian Govn. refused import saying find local sources...right.
Yes I think wheels could be imported, if someone in the interest group had experience with import, but normal people of limited lifespan and interest we be discouraged. And the sources that I was thinking of will not have experience exporting to the US, so forget I mentioned it, technically possible, is not always bureaucratically probable.
Hey Thor --
We may decide to go with chilled cast iron wheels using a pattern produced in house, though there are certain disadvantages with chilled wheels as noted elsewhere in this thread. I imagine the main reason we haven't looked beyond our own shores for sources is our inexperience in dealing with overseas suppliers, shipping, tariffs, customs, etc. I made some efforts last year to secure wheels from South Africa, but the difficulties not only with shipping, but also with the various bureaucracies that would be involved in the process, discouraged me from going much further than determining that, while it was possible to accomplish, such a shipment should only be attempted by someone with a very long life expectancy to wait while all the agencies had their say and signed off. I'm already old, so that wasn't going to be me!
That said, I believe we have drawings of the Portland-style wheel, and if a copy was forwarded to you, it may be worth looking into.
Cheers -- Wayne