W.W.&F. Discussion Forum
WW&F Railway Museum Discussion => Work and Events => Topic started by: Josh Botting on August 24, 2008, 05:28:12 PM
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Does anyone know what is happening up at Trout Brook on 218? There is a new driveway and a gravel pad beteen the ROW and 218???
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The Sheepscot Valley Conservation Association, which owns the property on either side of our right of way, is putting in a parking lot for their new Carleton Brook Trail, which will cross our right of way and follow the Trout (Carleton ) Brook up to its source.
Although the trail will not be dedicated until October, there will be two organized walks down the Mountain from end of track and along Trout Brook during the Jointly sponsored SVCA/WW&F Septemberfest all day Sunday, September 28, with food free food and activities included in the Train ticket price.
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How far from end of track is the planned conservation lot & trail-head?
Might be a great add-on for the museum to have a conservation connection and "guided" nature walks. (school trips ;) )
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If my memory serves me correctly, it's about 6,600 feet from the current end of track to Route 218. From Top of the Mountain to Route 218 is about 4,400 feet. The Trout Brook bridge location is about 500 feet from Route 218. Crossing the brook from the right-of-way is a bit difficult except when the stream is quite low. It's a beautiful walk down the mountain, though. It will be the scenic highlight of our line when the track reaches that area.
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thanks for the info Wayne, had a hard time trying to get the distance right. For the sake of discussion, would it possibly make sense to consider "breaking trail" with the conservation folks and actually clear the ROW (trail width only) so that the RR could connect with the conservation area. This might make for some good relations, PR, and also some potential business. what's everyone's thoughts?
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Trout Brook Bridge location is about 1200 feet south of Rt 218 crossing - and we have cleared a 50 foot right of way in the last few years between Rt 218 and the bridge crossing location. We will be brushcutting the right of way in that area again in the next couple of weeks, in preparation for the joint SVCA/WW&F Septemberfest event at Alna Center on Sunday , September 28th from 10am to 4pm. Come join us. The price of a WW&F ticket will include food, children's activities, exhibits from local farmers and businesses,and two escorted walks down the mountain and along the new Carleton (Trout) Brook Conservation Trail. Trains run on the hour.
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I so wish I could make i, but I'll most likely be under water then. ;)
I made the hike down here in April this year,... it's gorgeous!
I wondered about the patch of land/sand to the right (east?) of the bridge location on the north (unreachable to us) side of the stream.
It looks like it'd make for a good swimming hole rec/picnic area! Only thing is, anthing put down there, ie: picnic tables, etc, would need to be hauled back up at the end of summer so the springtime floods don't wash it all away.
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Just curious about the location of a future railroad station at Rt 218. How much museum-owned property is there, and is there enough room for a septic system?
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We own only the 66-foot wide right-of-way, and the Midcoast Conservancy owns the property on either side. We'll be building some sort of building, probably small. Any septic would be a port-a-potty, and given the location to service it, it would have be on MC's property and probably rented by MC.
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Station location will be on the rough location of the former section house. Design is not yet settled. Will be a tough spot for facilities, as there is no access by road to maintain said facility.
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This is starting to remind me (in a good way) of the halts/flagstops on the Ffestiniog and Welsh Highland in the UK that serve hikers and dog walkers.
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In the for what it is worth department, where the Appalachian Trail crosses NY Rt 22 and the Harlem Train line there is a Metro-North Railroad station that serves campers and hikers destined to/from the Appalachian Trail or New York City via the Harlem Line. It is the only rail station directly located on the Appalachian Trail. The station has a low-level wooden side platform to the east of the track, long enough for one door of one car to receive and discharge passengers. The platform has no shelter, but has a bulletin board for posting the current train schedule, as well as information for hikers. There is a small unpaved parking area large enough for a few cars. The station appears to be about 10' or 12' by perhaps 16' to 20'.
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I know on a prior discussion board (a long time ago), I suggested our BOD sit down with Mid-Coast and discuss a way to have a joint facility that would work as a station and a display/meeting area for the conservancy. I would suggest a recreated Head Tide station that if, in the future, we can continue northward to Head Tide, the station building could then be moved to the original site. Hey! If we can move a bridge, a station is easy......
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As a members only discussion: the board has been in contact with Midcoast Conservancy. We don’t want to announce any details on the subject until the talks are a little further along.
Thanks,
Jason
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I am happy to hear that Jason. :)
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Just my two cents worth, but there is not enough usable space at 218 to build a replica Head Tide station. Nice idea, but not very logical due to location and size.
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Joe, If you think about it as only within the WW&F ROW you are correct. Time to think outside the box (e.g. partnership), and other things are quite possible.
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Joe, If you think about it as only within the WW&F ROW you are correct. Time to think outside the box (e.g. partnership), and other things are quite possible.
Plus there are a lot of external funding opportunities if a partnership deal can be struck, but it's up to the BoD to let us know.
Frankly a station building servicing the needs of both entities could be prefabricated offsite, delivered and erected.
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We are restricted to our 66 Foot width, of which we will have 2 tracks, taking up 20+ feet. That leaves about 14 feet for a station. How is that? 33-10=23-5=18-4=14. Center of track is 33 feet, minus the 10 foot to center of siding, minus 5 for clearance, then 4 for a platform..
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We are restricted to our 66 Foot width, of which we will have 2 tracks, taking up 20+ feet. That leaves about 14 feet for a station. How is that? 33-10=23-5=18-4=14. Center of track is 33 feet, minus the 10 foot to center of siding, minus 5 for clearance, then 4 for a platform..
Quite a nice little 10' wide Alna Center-sized station with a separate 4' wide platform can be built TBD feet long. Probably should rebuild the section house too on the original foundations.
No reason why we can't whip both the station and section house up remotely. You haven't see all the "amish-built" garages (https://duckduckgo.com/?q=amish+garages&ia=web (https://duckduckgo.com/?q=amish+garages&ia=web)) delivered onsite by "amish mike" with a truck & trailer in NY/PA/NJ.
For proof I have attached a picture of "amish mike" (http://www.amishmike.com/garages/ (http://www.amishmike.com/garages/)) actually making a delivery with nary a horse in sight. Sorry, no Moose Trout in NY/NJ/PA, only woodchucks. ;)
(http://www.amishmike.com/wp-content/uploads_m/2012/07/siteprep3.jpg)
I say we skip the middle-man and in-source the construction with delivery to Alna.
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Current plans are on something a little more authentic. I can not say any more than that, but the proposed plan will be released with due time.
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Current plans are on something a little more authentic. I can not say any more than that, but the proposed plan will be released with due time.
Anything can be constructed to look like anything, one should not take the photo literal, it's the remote build location, transportation method and drop-in place that I am advocating. Doesn't matter pre-assembled or flat-packed, it's the concept.
Comments are that everyone "local" is overloaded (see other thread - http://forum.wwfry.org/index.php/topic,3214.msg36914.html (http://forum.wwfry.org/index.php/topic,3214.msg36914.html)) when authentic, capable offers are on the table to off-load work. There are skilled hands available elsewhere, building the Trout Brook Station, a platform and a Section House in parallel to the bridge and trackwork to a BoD defined spec is not rocket science. Make the building complex another sub-project of the total extension effort like the bridge. Help offload Mike & Jason.
No reason the Station buildings can't be in place once the bridge has moved down the ROW past the station site. Could even use the on-site cranes, or the new crane truck, to very accurately place said structures. Rails can catch up within their own timeframe.
With that I'm off today to completely re-deck, with 1/2" ply and 30# builder's felt, the roof for a 24' x 36' wing of my woodworking workshop in anticipation of the new metal roof!
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Totally agree with Bill. I would love to take on spearheading a project within my skillset. I've been helping Steve with marketing, but could also take on a similar project on my own. It would help if there were a list of to-do projects that we could sign on to...
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Folks, we all appreciate the sentiment of taking some load off of us, and a structure project built off campus, maybe even for 218, may well be appropriate at some point. However- I’ll ask everyone from refraining from organizing such an effort or putting together a package proposal for the board- for this reason: The design, location, main purpose and auxiliary use of any building is currently at the core of an ongoing negotiation we have undertaken. Any effort initiated here would be duplicate, and potentially not in keeping with the official negotiation. Also- we are not rushing this topic- I expect resolution on the matter next year. Remember public opening at 218 is scheduled for 2021. The work load of building that structure was removed from this year intentionally.
We had already discussed building the structure at Sheepscot, and moving by rail. Building the structure more off-site than even sheepscot station could well be a good idea; it is premature at the moment. Load sharing and more volunteerism in general is only a good thing.
Things are working and moving ahead in the background.
Thanks,
Jason
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Building the structure more off-site than even sheepscot station could well be a good idea; it is premature at the moment.
Thanks,
Jason
Having seen what the membership is capable of, and having built good sized buildings on my property alone in three months while working full time I don't think we need to worry about having a station ready by the time the track is done.
Mike Nix
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[Moderator's Note]
A discussion on better volunteer engagement and utilization was split from this topic.
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Is there a sketch available of the proposed track layout at Route 218? (We need to think of a better name for the proposed station. Route 218 sounds like a transit stop!)
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I think we were going with "Trout Brook Preserve", but I don't know if that was ever made official.
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Jason and I agreed on an alignment Wednesday that leaves the rock/ledge intact. :)
I'm glad to hear this. :) It's a small detail, but I appreciate when historical features of the ROW can remain intact.
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Ed is correct on the proposed name. We talked about it at a board meeting a while ago, but don't remember if we made it official, or even if we would have to.
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I heard Jason refer to it the other day as Trout Brook Station.
That has the RIGHT RING to me...IMHO
Bob
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Yeah, I like "Trout Brook," too. Sounds more 1900's than "Trout Brook Preserve." Besides, that's a long name to put on the side of a station.
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Ditto
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Ditto for Trout Brook as a station name.
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While I agree "Trout Brook" rolls off the tongue better, the bridge is at Trout Brook and the station is not really at the bridge, but north of there. As such, we should probably avoid having two distinct locations with the same name.
Moreover, the station will be serving the MidCoast Conservancy's "Trout Brook Preserve" and the station building will be also used as a shelter/information kiosk for the conservation area. Anything we can do to promote the preserve as a destination will be to our benefit.
That said, of course I'll support whatever the BOD ultimately decides.
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Ah, Ed. I respectfully disagree. The WW&F was known for locating its station some distance from various towns and villages on its route. Take Sheepscot, for instance. The village is 3/4 of a mile away on the other side of a ridge -- a healthy stroll for someone going there. Trout Brook, while adjacent to the preserve, is only a few hundred feet from the stream of that name. Taking the idea bit further, in a published public timetable, it might be listed thus: Trout Brook (Trout Brook Preserve). But what do I know? I'm just someone from away who shows up two or three times a year.
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Wayne's point is well-taken. I have similar sentiments. A common railroad idiom is to name the station for the nearest "feature of interest", however far away it may be. I grew up in Derry, PA, originally called Derry Station, which was the PRR staging facility for eastbound helpers to Altoona. From Derry's own website:
In 1852, a railroad station was built in Derry. Because of the nearness of the settlement of New Derry, then known as Derry Town, the name “Derry Station” was given to this new development. Ironically, this mere train stop gave birth to a community which later completely overshadowed the settlement from which it derived its name. When this new town was later incorporated into a borough, the word “Station” was dropped as part of the name.
It's also not unreasonable to give the station a completely pragmatic name. Take Koldok, ND for instance: Literally named for the railroad structure at that location. If we're concerned about the length of the name, maybe something equally short and pragmatic like "Ledge" or "Boulder" is in order, given the nearness of that geographical feature (and Ed's fondness for it ;D ). In fact, WW&F already has such a location: Top of the Mountain. Doesn't get much more descriptive than that.
Last idea: Is there an adjacent landowner who would be willing to lend their name? That also seems to be a common theme on smaller lines, of which the WW&F also has examples.
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Hello ! I'd go for Trout Brook too. On the AMTP the endstation Bellébat shares the name of a nearby wood where lovers were used to hidding away in the old days . The crossover Les Carrières is located not far from of a stone quarry that has been long refilled. My French humble opinion.
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Ah, Ed. I respectfully disagree. The WW&F was known for locating its station some distance from various towns and villages on its route. Take Sheepscot, for instance. The village is 3/4 of a mile away on the other side of a ridge -- a healthy stroll for someone going there.
Also, Headtide was on the opposite side of the river from the town.
Jeff S.
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I like "Trout Brook". I think on the B&SR South Bridgton Station was nowhere near the village due to geography not allowing for building track through the town center. Also West Sebago station was moved from one end of Hancock Pond almost to the other at Swamp Road. It kept the West Sebago name but it could've been changed to "Farther West Sebago" or "Denmark" as it was just over or astride the town line in its last location. "Trout Brook" sounds very Maine to me.
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I go with Trout Brook Preserve in honor of the conservancy's work.
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Well, we have a healthy discussion here. We are slowly becoming a railroad with destinations. Alna Center. A replicated station. Now our event center. Top of the Mountain. This will be another destination. Our wood and farming related stop. Trout Brook Preserve. If you get off there, well you are in the Preserve. I do think we owe it to the Mid Coast Conservancy to honor them by naming the station as such. They have been very cooperative with us, and very interested in what we are doing. There was never a station or a siding there, like there were at our other locations. There was a section house in the area there, but I don't know if it ever had a name.
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Well argue about the name all you want. Eventually it will be settled. Rock, Paper, Scissors anyone? :o
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After all why not addding Preserve if it's to thank the Mid Coast Conservatory. You know it's sure silly but preseve sounds like preserves for me.
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Yeah, not very railroad-y!! Nor consistent with 1930's naming.
But what do I know?
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other choices could be
Preserve Station
Mid Coast Station
Conservancy station
Trout Brook Station
Trout Brook Preserve station
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Can't be Preserve Station; people will expect another odd name for the next station we build which could be "Jams & Jelly Junction". I know, I'll probably get sent back to the whimsy page again by the forum police. :o
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Why not offer [Trout Brook] station "naming rights" to the Midcoast Conservancy, seeking their input on what the name should be?
8)
It will cost us nothing to do so, and has already been noted, the Conservancy is a landowner on both sides of our track, and has been supportive of our plans.
Keep in mind that whatever promotion they might do that involves that "station" and its hiking area/trails is likely to mention that station name, at the very least as a geographic reference point, but also possibly as combination train ride and hike. See for example this page: https://www.midcoastconservancy.org/events/trout-brook-trails-volunteer-work-day/.
We have a [soon bigger] parking lot at Sheepscot that most days could accommodate any and all the hikers that might want to get to that area, and the Midcoast Conservancy parking lot at that site is relatively small.
One of our goals is to attempt to make the train more than just a "ride" and have it instead be a "means" to get to some event (at Alna Center, TOM [sawmill etc], and could also be the Conservancy/Preserve property.
It costs us nothing, and might bring us some benefits from offering the Conservancy station "naming rights".
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Well, we could take a great leap backward to 1900 and name the station Carleton Stream, which was the name of Trout Brook back them.
Seriously, I don't think the word "station" should be included in whatever name is selected, and I do like the idea of offering the opportunity to name the location to the MidCoast Conservancy.
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On page 84 of Narrow Gauge in the Sheepscot Valley, there are photos of what is reported be the Carlton Stream section house. It was very close to the crossing of route 218. Perhaps this could be the location of the new station.
Jeff S.
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As a follow-up to Jeff's inquiry; Isn't it in our long range plan or BOD decisions to eventually rebuild/replicate the Carlton Brook section house? I remember discussions about it and if the official answer is yes, then it would be proper and historically correct to name the station Carlton Brook.
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Just offering my opinion in this well balanced discussion: I believe we should acknowledge our historical railway’s place in the modern community by naming in accordance with the location’s current status as a public preserve. Personally I prefer Trout Brook as a location name, appearing on the sign and timetable that way, with the building being referred to as Trout Brook Station. In the same way that the sign on Alna Center station simply says “Alna Center,” while we all understand the structure to be “Alna Center Station.”
There was never an official decision, as I recall, on whether the structure will replicate the section house or be a standard flag stop building. Midcoast Conservancy liked the flag stop idea, but haven’t gotten back to us on the section house idea. (We indicated no rush.)
See ya
Jason
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Just a note on how most railroads define a “station.”
The station is NOT a building, but merely anyplace mentioned in the employee timetable by name.
Thus a “station” is a location and not a building. The building is a depot or even a station building.
But the station is merely a location usually denoted by mile post.
An example of this is Grand Central in New York. Many folks refer to it as Grand Central Station, but in truth Grand Central Station is a Post Office and the railroad structure is Grand Central Terminal.
Keith
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Our rulebook defines “stations” as such: any location defined in the timetable is a station.
The purpose of this discussion is how we refer to physical structures serving as public interface.
No matter what the name ends up being- it’d be appropriate to have a display inside the structure giving the history of the area. There, the historical name “Carlton Brook” can be presented.
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No matter what the name ends up being- it’d be appropriate to have a display inside the structure giving the history of the area. There, the historical name “Carlton Brook” can be presented.
Totally agree with this.
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I'm voting for Trout Brook!
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As I recall, the photos of the section house in the book were almost useless to determine the dimensions and configuration of the building. I think a wayside station house like Alna Center would be more useful to us and to the conservancy, and a display inside would be protected from the weather.
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I'm totally with Jason on labeling the structure Trout Brook. What we call it in the timetable can be debated a little more.
BTW, I'm amazed at the intensity and level of this discussion. It shows how much we all care about our railroad.
Bob
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I vote for “Trout Brook” and a copy of the Alna Center building. as it makes a nice cozy spot for a 📞 telephone.
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I believe the Conservancy has already weighed in by naming their property Trout Brook Preserve. I am against giving the right to abutters to name our stations. It sets a bad precedent. What if the Conservancy chose to name it after a big benefactor with absolutely no relation to the WW&F or its history? We have traditionally named our stations after abutters (I.e. Sutters) or location (Alna Center which is actually the historic name). We have made one exception because the family did not want their name used for a station. Top of the Mountain seemed to just grow organically.
Dave
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Just as a point of clarification as I really jumbled my context in my prior post. I meant to say to replicate the section house in addition to the flagstop/station. I get the feeling that as we use the mountain grade on a regular basis that we will want to have some engine "sundries" like lubricating oil and sand, switch brooms & shovels (especially in winter), and maybe boxes for decorations when we have special events. Just a suggestion / idea.
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I like that idea John, but we would have to ask the Conservancy for permission for 2 buildings. I found the stones for the original section house last year, along with a ton of metal parts from when it was used during the farm days. Nothing I could tell was railroad related.
Downside to that is now we have 2 buildings in an area that is preserved for nature. If we make it look busy or improved, it will start to loose the rural feel.
Just my thought.
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Taking a closer look at the two photos of the section house at this location, it appears to be somewhat larger than either Head Tide or Whitefield. If a near-replica of this building is erected, it would serve the purpose of a station house and would have plenty of wall space for display panels. In addition, if conservancy visitors were caught by a sudden summer shower, it's large enough to shelter a number of folks. A large wooden tool box could serve as a seat as well as a place to store a couple of shovels, switch brooms and so forth as suggested above.
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I go with Trout Brook or Carlton Brook -
The bridge would be Trout (Brook) Bridge
The bridge would be on the Employee Timetable but not the Public one
as there is no place for the public to de-train at that location.
If the names get too modern the RR is no longer a Museum but a Tourist Attraction.
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South Head Tide?
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How about Catamount Station. It has a nature like ring to it. ;)
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I vote for Trout Brook. Isn't the bridge supposed to get lettered with its' original Boston & Maine bridge number? Has there been any thought about parking at Trout Brook station as once in operation I'm sure there will be visitors and I'm sure some will be interested in riding the train to Sheepscot and back.
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Where is it currently intended to locate the Trout Brook station? Could the location be described in relation to some feature (the rock, trail crossing) and distance from the 218 paving?
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Paul;
Trout Brook Station (now official) will be located on the western side of the ROW just north of the big rock near where the track shack was. We are checking with setback rules and will need abutter permission to locate the station where we desire to. certain other details must be decided and or dealt with first however. The station design will be a flag stop similar or identical to Alna Center.
Dave
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That location puts the station on the runaround track. I would have thought it would be on the mainline.
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You are correct Paul. It is going to be located on the west side to avoid any disturbance to the wet area on the east side.
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That location puts the station on the runaround track. I would have thought it would be on the mainline.
Since the track will end in a turntable for now it won't make any difference which track the locomotive uses to run around the train, so the train can still "stop" at the station.
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Having the station on the siding is consistent with typical high speed rail designs. The slow speed train makes the station stops while the Sheepscot Shinkansen blasts by.
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Would it please the Preserve if the building were able to shelter their visitors as well?
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Photos ("groundbreaking") taken 8-25-2021 by Jason Lamontagne
Parked at End of Track (roughly over the location where the turntable will be.)
Test bore for the Turntable.
Today's crew also bored 20 post holes and installed that many posts for our reproduction of the original railroad's line fence - which is being installed to clarify where the trail traffic should flow.
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The Mass Bay RRE announced that the WW&F has received a $10,000 grant for the construction of the station at Trout Brook.
Mass Bay RRE designates its largest Preservation Fund grant each year as "The Ralph S. Hawkins Memorial Railroad Preservation Grant" to honor and preserve the memory of the late Ralph Hawkins, a longtime active Director of Mass Bay RRE.
For 2022 there is a single recipient of the Ralph S. Hawkins Memorial Railroad Preservation Grant: The Wiscasset, Waterville & Farmington Railway Museum of Alna, Maine, will receive $10,000 to construct a WW&F flag stop station at the northern terminus of the restored Mountain Extension. Situated in the midst of Midcoast Conservancy's Trout Brook Preserve, this station will serve as a shelter and joint exhibit space for WW&F passengers who disembark to enjoy this adjacent scenic park. The building will be constructed in the style of flag stop stations found along the WW&F elsewhere, such as Sheepscot and Alna Center.
The new station is expected to be completed in time for the planned August 6, 2022 inaugural run over the Mountain Extension.
[From MBRRE press release.]
Thank you, MBRRE!
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Yes--Thank you, MBRRE!
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Gee, just 107 days hence!
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Well done to our grant writing team!
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Great news!
Thank you to Mass Bay RRE. The generosity of our donors and members is truly a key to the success of the WW&F.
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And a big shout out to the Mass Bay RRE for their continued support of our WW&F Ry Museum and our projects!
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Wow, the TBS is really looking great. Another project being well executed.
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There's something visually satisfying in well lined, leveled, tamped, and dressed track. Makes me excited to do some work elsewhere on the line in the future.
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Wow, the TBS is really looking great. Another project being well executed.
You beat me to it, Bill. :)
Jeff S.
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The whole terminus blends perfectly into the natural surroundings. Can't wait to see it in person!
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Come to think of it in late 2017 on Google maps street view I was not able to spot the ROW from 218 and now there is a station there. Really amazing;
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Will the new station be outfitted like Alna Station with desk, chair and other accoutrements?
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Will the new station be outfitted like Alna Station with desk, chair and other accoutrements?
Brendan is building a box for the magneto telephone (a Leich 901).