W.W.&F. Discussion Forum
WW&F Railway Museum Discussion => Work and Events => Topic started by: Anthony Vo on May 30, 2019, 10:58:43 AM
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I am relatively new here, let alone this is my first post. But I have heard that you guys are looking for 60 lb rail and ties and I went looking around on the web for anything that might help. I found some useful stuff:
ties: http://www.theboardbarn.biz/
you'll need to scroll down a bit
rails: https://www.ez2rail.com/60-lb-asce-rail
I also wnated to take the opportunitty to ask if you guys are doing a southern extesion, because the old roadbed is still clear across from the street.
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Anthony,
There's a thread about extending southward here: http://forum.wwfry.org/index.php/topic,1053.html
The short answer is "not right now".
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Hi Anthony,
Thanks for the leads on ties and rails. For ties, we have found a nearly limitless and affordable solution by re-purposing pressure treated roadway guardrail posts. These work really well for us.
Rail is a different matter. New and used 60# rail is available from a number of suppliers (including Kimes.) However, the cost, plus shipping, is a bit above our current budget. Instead, we are looking for sources where the cost, plus shipping, provides an economical alternative to known new/used suppliers. For example, the rails being laid down the Mountain Extension were sold at or below scrap value, and the quantity made shipping from Wisconsin to Maine viable. We would certainly consider such purchases in the future, should the opportunity arise.
That said, Benjamin is correct in that we have no *current* plans to extend the rails southward from Sheepscot Station. We do our planning in 5-year increments, and we are in the middle of that cycle - with the goal of bringing train service to Route 218/Trout Brook Preserve in 2021. Once we have that goal completed, we will certainly be considering further railroad expansion. Crossing Cross Road would provide several operational advantages, even if the ride itself were not extended initially.
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As far as extending the railroad, we are interested in continuimg the extension efforts and starting next year we will begin to weigh in some factors as to which direction we may want to go, how long of a break we may want, etc.
Whatever the decision just know that extension efforts are still part of the plan and any period of a "break" in extension will simply be for us to complete other projects, etc. Such as a roundhouse for example.
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Besides the need for expensive crossing gates, wouldn't an extension in either direction change your status with the FRA and impose more rules/regulations/restrictions?
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As far as FRA rules are; for Cross Road is crossbucks, warning signs, and a flagman. Its technically a Class I railroad and keep to 15 mph. Rt. 218 would most likely be another story but it is not in the 5 year plan currently. Would it change our FRA status, yes technically but the operating department is revising our equipment and procedures to be FRA compliant anyway so its not such a big deal.
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Route 218 would need lights but probably no gates. The FRA is really very pleasant to deal with. If you are honest and open with them, they are great to work with.
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I've heard that crossing a road has an effect on insurance premiums. Anyone know anything about that?
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James, yes it will but it also depends on the crossing, how its protected, policies and operating procedures that the RR uses also has a factor. There are many things that can mitigate potential loss which translates into what the actual rate shall be.
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In my opinion, you guys should get some gates in addition to lights for Rte. 218, cause based on things all over the US, you never know what drivers can do.
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The Maine State DOT will dictate whatever is necessary for the (possible, but not currently planned) crossing of Route 218 on the north end of the WW&F. Anything discussed here is pure speculation, which may be colored with experience.
The WW&F has a proven track record (sorry) of doing careful research and planning, much 'behind the scenes', to ensure when major projects are announced (usually in the 5-year plan, or the annual Fall Fundraiser letter) a clear path forward has been determined, with all associated costs and side-effects worked out.
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I would think rail crossing safety equipment requirements at Cross Road, a semi-rural, residential collector street, would be much less strict than at Maine state highway 218, and much less expensive.
Unlit crossbucks, pavement paint, safety signs, a volunteer flagman and a stop-and-proceed rail rule would cost peanuts compared to automatic crossing gates, blinking warning lights, bells and train speed detector electronics, which I've read cost, at least, 6 figures+ per site, and must be carefully maintained.
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What is the ultimate long term goal regarding extension, if there is one. Is there anything mentioned or the subject broached in the bylaws? Is restoring the entire line technically even possible?
Regards,
Fred M. Cain
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Is restoring the entire line technically even possible?
Given enough time, yes.
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I don't know if this might be a possibility for track of the right weight, but 49 miles of rail from Cape Charles, VA on the Delmarva Peninsula north to Hallwood, VA was petitioned to be abandoned back in 2018. I don't know the weight of the rail or if they have begun removal yet, but trains stopped running that year. I have attached a link to a Sep 2018 newspaper article. In it there are 2 photos showing the rail. One is mainline and the other is a siding. The siding rail looks to be fairly light. If anyone can tell the weight by looking at the photos, please let me know. If there is interest, the Cape Charles Historical Society might be able to help.
https://www.easternshorepost.com/2019/09/04/railroad-service-may-be-gone-from-cape-charles-but-it-is-remembered-at-cape-charles-museum/
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It’s been well over 25 years since I worked in Cape Charles, but my memory is that the main line rail is 130-PS and the sidings were a mix of 100-PS, 85-PS and 85-PR. Our standard these days is 60-ASCE rail.
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I don't think the By-laws cover extending the railroad. That is left to us. Long term goal could be anything. We certainly don't want to outgrow our ability to maintain what we have.
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Mike makes an excellent point.
Building more than can be properly maintained would compromise safety and we surely don't want that.
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Which strengthens the point for the need for mechanization of a lot of our MOW work. The tamper is a start but eventually a tie handler, spiker, bolt machine, gang car, and work carts will finish the job. I know we'll never find a ballast regulator small enough for us.
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Your organizations mechanical ability is amazing. You built your own homemade tamper and boiler flanger. I'll bet given the opportunity a standard-gauge ballast regulator could be "slimmed down".
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I'm sure you'd be able to built small ballast regulators from tipcars or tipcar frameworks but as regards a future extension of the line, once again, I fully agree with Mike, don't outgrow your ability to maintain what you have.
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Ballast regulator would be fairly easy to build. I have a couple different ideas using a rototiller unit as the broom side of it..
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The sweeper part of a ballast regulator is the easy part and a rototiller type front would work although the RPM would have to be dramatically increased. Where it gets dicey is coming up with the plow front and hydraulically controlled wings for ditching, shaping, and scooping both dirt and rock into or away from the ROW. The wings put an awful lateral strain on the unit and I have personally experienced a hydraulic arm fracture failure. The boom is enough to scare the hell out of the most daring soul not to mention the shower of hydraulic fluid which covered the machine.
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+That track down the Virginia and Maryland was PRR main line, Most likely too heavy for us to use. It would most likely be 100lb PS or heaver.
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+That track down the Virginia and Maryland was PRR main line, Most likely too heavy for us to use. It would most likely be 100lb PS or heaver.
Sometimes yards and sidings into industries are laid with lower-weight rail.
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We certainly don't want to outgrow our ability to maintain what we have.
That's why I'm looking forward to doing some lining and leveling of the main this spring. We *are* getting together to work in a few months, aren't we?
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Believe me when I state unequivocally that 60-pound rail and smaller is getting really hard to find in any quantity at any kind of affordable price. That rail section was obsolete 50 years ago, and 21st century railroads long ago replaced anything that light with heavier rail. Even 90 and 100 pound rail is getting difficult to find.
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Same out here the 44-pound -20 kilo- second- hand rail in good condition is a rarety in France. I've heard you can buy new ones in China.
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As we move north I notice the rail gets heavier and heavier. By the time we reach North Whitefield we'll probably be at 110-lb rail.
The obverse of this would mean that the rail gets lighter and lighter the further south we go. That means it'll be 12-lb rail in Wiscasset, right?
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As we move north I notice the rail gets heavier and heavier. By the time we reach North Whitefield we'll probably be at 110-lb rail.
The obverse of this would mean that the rail gets lighter and lighter the further south we go. That means it'll be 12-lb rail in Wiscasset, right?
More like the rings on a tree, James. The center is at SS and radiates out from there. By that logic Wiscasset will probably be 80 lb rail since there's a bunch of that all over the place.
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I seem to recall that when the Welsh Highland was under reconstruction that they bought new 60lb rail from Poland at a very good price. Maybe one of our Welsh friends could shed some light on this.
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I think we can still buy new rail, but it is a lot more expensive than used.
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That's all true, of course. The trick is finding what we need at a reasonable price and close enough that it doesn't break the bank to deliver it.
I got a quote from a track materials supplier in the fall of $760 a ton for No. 1 relay quality 60 pound rail and $790 a ton for new rail. That did not include joint bars or transportation. I also found several miles of relay 60 pound rail with bars at $300 a ton, but the owner was unwilling to sell only part of what he had. And it was in southwestern Missouri, a long way from Sheepscot.
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So, how much rail are we talking about? And if we are talking a large amount, can it ship by rail in gons to Wiscasset or Rockland? You can get a whole lot of 60 lb rail in a 100 Ton Gon.
On the other prices, if you're only talking $30/ton difference between #1 and new, I'd go with new. If you have any defects, with new you either return or take a credit. With used, you eat the price.
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IIRC, we have considered rail delivery by rail. One issue was that we would have to get the rail out of the gondola(s) somehow. Since then, Wiscasset has (I think) lost its siding. So trucking becomes a much more feasible delivery mechanism.
How much rail? I think the consensus is not so much how much do we need, but rather how much are we willing to pay. If we can get a fair quantity of 60# rail cheap for "someday", then I suspect we would take that opportunity. Yet we wouldn't pay market price right now, since there is no immediate need for the rail.
That said, 5-10 miles of (additional) track would probably cover the logical extent of the railroad within any of our lifetimes - if such extensions were to be adopted as official projects.
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No more Wiscasset siding, it got pulled up a couple of years ago when Railroad Ave was widened and parking added. The nearest is in Newcastle, but that's not terribly accessible by road vehicle anymore (it looks like local residents have occupied the grounds).
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If I am not mistaken, our 'long beams' vendor, Viking Lumber, gets some loads by rail. It seems something could be worked out with Viking. :D
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There are lots of things to think about when shipping rail by rail. The first thing is that the big railroads are not interested in the onesy-twosey carload business, so if they are even willing to quote it, they will quote some outlandish number. Next, a gondola is designed to carry 80 to 100 tons these days, so the rate is based on the weight of the load. Even 80 tons of rail at $500 a ton is going to cost $40,000 just to buy it. When you are looking at as much as $750 or $800 a ton, it's pretty pricey. Then we have to add on to that the expense of loading it in the gon, the rail freight rate, the cost of unloading it from the gon and the cost of trucking it, 20 tons or so at a time, to Sheepscot. Pretty soon that adds up to real money.
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What I look at is the pricing difference. If as Wayne has stated he has quotes for 300/ton in Missouri and 760/ton from a dealer the difference is 460/ton. If you are loading a 100 ton Gon that's a savings of $46,000 bucks. I can move several railcars for 46 grand. One must also take into account that no matter which way you go you have a basic shipping cost associated with the move. So the increased distance cost is incremental, not a full expense.
Doesn't Bath Ironworks still have 1 or 2 sidings active for steel and equipment shipments? There is also a siding at 144 Depot St. Waldoboro.