W.W.&F. Discussion Forum
WW&F Railway Museum Discussion => Museum Discussion => Topic started by: Ed Lecuyer on December 13, 2008, 05:37:23 PM
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Current end of track? has been converted from the pre-July 2008 WW&F Discussion Forum.
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Bill Reidy wrote:
I'm putting the final update together for the museum guide and realized today that I need to update the statement regarding the current end of track in service. The 2006 version of the guide read "...the current end of
track in service is approximately 1400 feet north of Alna Center station." I understand that per Wayne's measurement Sunday we added another 845 feet of in service track.
Does that mean the current end of track in service is approximately 2200 feet north of Alna Center?
Thanks,
Bill
Joe Fox replied:
Roughly. I think that the current end of passenger service track is about 1.9 miles or so. But I am not 100% sure.
Joe
Mike Fox replied:
Bill,
Sounds about right. I measured it on 2 different sites and came up within 100 feet of what you are estimating. Only I measured from Averill Road North.
Mike
Mike Fox replied:
Also using the same method, 1.96 miles of current in service Maineline track. Does this sound right or close to what you have?
Mike
James Patten replied:
If the end of passenger-ready track is at the north end of Albee's Crossing, then 1.98 miles of track. Total track is 2.09 (this counts the unspiked track at the end, which I probably shouldn't count). Alna Center is 1.56 miles from the end of the rail at Sheepscot.
You could call it a half a mile and nobody will quibble.
Wayne Laepple replied:
When I measured on Sunday, per Dana's instructions, I measured from the red flag to the culvert at the bottom of the ladder. That was 845 feet. The flag is about 5 feet south of the south edge of the crossing.
Bill Reidy replied:
I came very close to James' estimate for in-service main line track: 1.99 miles (9,641 feet in service the end of 2006, per the 2006 restoration progress web page, + 845 feet measured by Wayne = 10,486 feet, or 1.9859848484... miles).
Thanks everyone -- I'll go with the 2200 feet for the guide.
Bill
Wayne Laepple replied:
So let's see, the red flag is about 5 feet south of the crossing, the crossing is about 20 feet wide, there's a rail length plus another 5 feet or so north of the crossing already surfaced. So if you add another 60 feet...just 14 feet shy of 2 miles. We were that close to the 2-mile mark? Auggghhh!
Ira Schreiber replied:
Hopefully, someone will see fit to add the additional trackage as servicable and make the magic 2 mile run.
A couple hours work by a small crew should do the job.
Joe Fox replied:
I hope Dana decides to lay a few rail lengths down this summer to make the track longer, and so we could be a few more rail lengths closer to the Mountain. All we need to do now is just put down some more ballast, and tamp it, and we will have a 2 mile passenger service railroad. I believe all the rails are now spiked and bolted. A small crew did that on Saturday while the Fox team and the Black Pants gang were tamping.
Joe
Mike Fox replied:
James and all,
I was just guessing with Google Earth and the Maine Aerial Photography web sites. Very close to what you had.
Mike
Bill Reidy replied:
...We were that close to the 2-mile mark? Auggghhh!
Yup, that was pretty much my reaction when I did the math yesterday and came up with 1.99 miles.
Bill
Josh Botting replied:
Joe,
I believe the balast is down, all it needs it to be jacked, tamped, lined, and dressed.
Joe Fox replied:
Oh. It would be nice to have our track run 2 miles. Especially for the 470 railroad club trips. Oh well. Just tell them that the passenger ready track is 2 miles. So what if we are only a tenth or two off.
Joe
Brad Whittemore replied:
We are now 750 ft pass Albee's crossing within 10 ft. with the last 150 ft safety spiked. Hopefully June 8th or 9th it will be all spiked and ready to lay out another 150 ft of ties or so. The more the workers the easier the task. This 750 ft still needs to be tamped and jack and lined and so forth. But this is where we are at the moment with all other projects going on too.
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Wait so the current WW&F mainline from Sheepscot Station to The Top Of The Mountain Station is 1.99 miles! Cant we just build a few more feet of track to make it 2 miles? :o ??? ::) :)
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Matt,
This is an OLD thread. The track has since been extended, twice.
We now have well over 2 miles of in-service track, and 1200' of track that will probably be ready for service in the spring. This brings us about 1200' south of the Top of the Mountain.
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Okay then what will be the total miles between Sheepscots Station and The Top Of The Mountain Station? :o :) :D
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From Sheepscot to Top of the Mountain will be about 2.5 miles.
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Cool! When its finshed Ed can you make a map of the whole mainline and yards from Sheepscot Station to Top Of The Mountian Station! ;D :) ;) :)
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The map must also feature the new Sheepscots yards plan! ;) :)
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Here's a topo map of the current WW&F system.
(Yard trackage is omitted, since it would be hard to distinguish it at this scale.)
(http://www.spongeawareness.com/maps/TOPOMAP.JPG)
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And here's a photo map of the current WW&F system.
(Yard trackage is omitted, since it would be hard to distinguish it at this scale.)
(http://www.spongeawareness.com/maps/PHOTOMAP.JPG)
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Awsome map Ed! I though the mainline was shorter but I was wrong! :D :o :) I think once we get enough money again, we can then extend the line north from Top Of The Mountain Station to route 218! Ed whats the total miles between Sheepscot Station to route 218? ??? :)
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You'll have to understand, everything takes planning and money. We can't focus solely on extending the line and neglecting other things that need to get accomplished. Though it would be nice to reach 218 quickly, there is a series of 4 steps that go into rebuilding the line.
1. Cutting the trees.
This is time consuming and can only be done safely in the winter as we burn all the branches and smaller parts of the trees.
2. Grading the Right of Way.
This includes removing stumps and replacing culverts.
3. Laying the rail.
Done usually one long weekend in the fall. 1200 feet is a good accomplishment over 4 days. This takes a lot of planning and preparation.
4. Ballasting and lifting the track.
This is normally done during the spring work weekend. Again, a lot of planning to get this accomplished, a lot of labor to unload the cars. Basically shape and lift the rails to get them useable.
So you see, there is a lot of time involved in extending the line. It can't be done at the snap of a finger or the drop of a dollar. At our current rate of 1200 feet a year, we should reach 218 in 5 or 6 years. One Major obstacle would be the Carlton (aka Trout) Brook Bridge. So it might be longer.
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Oh okay thanks Mike! :) :D :)
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Don't forget that in Mike's list there's a "Step 0", which is to negotiate an easement with the land owner. We do not own any of the land shown between the end of track and route 218. We have been very successful with landowner negotiations, and are certainly thankful for their assistance, but negotiations are a very time consuming process. No one, Mainers in particular, likes to be rushed or pressured into these agreements.
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The repair of the extensive landslide north of Top of the Mountain is going to be a substantial project, and it could take most of the funds we raise for a couple of years. So far, we have been able to rely on in-house talent to take care of many right-of-way issues. This area is going to require outside engineering assistance, not to mention extensive reconstruction work beyond our ability. This project alone could delay our arrival at Route 218 for at least a couple of years. And all this takes place after we have negotiated an easement and have satisfied the various state agencies with interests in this matter.
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Especially the engineering assistance, because since the landslide happened once, it is likely to happen again after we clear it due to the already unstable lay of the land; unless we take measures to prevent it. Being an engineer myself, I understand some of the situation just from what has been said. Once the 'track' has been cleared, the dirt and embankment will have to be cut even furter back to allow a retaining wall to go in. The removal will need to go far enough back to allow 'feelers' ( basically bakwards butresses ) to go into the hillside. then as the fill goes in, underground drains must be instaled in gravel to relieve water pressure from behind the wall. Not to mention the sloping of the entire structure to bring the center of gravity to the feeler side of the wall. And then the choice of ground cover to keep the dirt in place, and the choice of facing to make it period apropriate... Oh and we'll want to leave enough space for the drainage diches on either side of the burm too....
the list goes on with the racheting expenses....
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I have walked down to the big slide several times now and I think I figured out what caused it. When the railroad was built, they did it as cheaply as possible. This included several French drains. Over the years some have failed (plugged up). The slide looks to be in one of those areas. Logging a number of years ago folled in the drain and over time the ditch started filling up with silt. This retained water until it got to the point where the hillside was waterlogged. Then the weight of the trees took the hillside down.
Further down toward the right of way toward the brook, another french drain was affected the same way. Only this one took itself out of the right of way, leaving a washout.
As for the first washout, I don't know what was in there. I found some pins when we cut that area off. Possibly for a trestle. But there is absolutely nothing left if there was a trestle. There are no pipes from a culvert that used to be there. So this could have been another failed French drain.
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Would anyone happen to have pictures of the landslide? This would be really helpfull to my understanding of this area of the ROW.
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This is the best image I have, still very hard to get a sense of things. Obviously everyone is standing at the edge -- approximately in the middle of the ROW.
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-8/342468/hillsideslidesm.jpg)
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If you still need a sense of things, the bottom of those trees is at least 30 feet down.
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Wait so were the guys are standing is the original right of way or is it down the slope? ??? :)
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From South to North (along the ROW):
Jason Lamontagne
Steve Smith
Joe Fox
Zach Willey
Gordon Cook
Dave Olszewski
James Patton
There is no way to stand along that slope, it is far too steep. It's also hard to try to get a good picture of it. The best way to see it is in person.
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Not sure #1 looks like Gordon Cook and Not sure #2 is Dave Olsewski (sp?).
Matt, the guys are standing on the roadbed, or atleast the half that didn't slide towards the brook.
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I corrected my list. Thanks Mike.
How is Joe doing these days? I don't see him on the discussion forums anymore.
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Allright Mike,
Please explain the french drain to the dumb frenchman?
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A French Drain is basically a minature leach field.
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A pipe with rocks in it. Of course there's no actual pipe, it's a virtual pipe.
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Of course there's no actual pipe, it's a virtual pipe.
Like they had back in the 60's!! (http://ngdiscussion.net/phorum/mods/smileys/images/smiley25.gif)
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Just rocks. A trench would be dug, clean rocks dumped in, smaller rocks dumped on top, and then the dirt for the grade on that. I dug around and found a picture online. Basic cross section of one.
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2006-11/1225939/FrenchDrain.gif)
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We installed a french drain at Sutters crossing that drains to the northeast, past the crossing sign. It may be clogged up now from the road gravel and silt washing down into the crossing over the last 9 years. Fortunately Brad re-engineered the drainage system so the crossing's flange ways stay clean.
The other problem with the large wash out is that part of the grade was built on fill. The W&Q didn't use much cribbing when they built the grade against the existing hillside. Whatever wooden cribbing was there is long gone and the trees took over when the rail was removed. Tree roots and the height of the trees make leverage against the embankment. With rain and wind the weakest part (gravel on clay) collapsed with the weight of the trees and gravel taking everything down the hillside. We will probably have to install gabion baskets to sure up the west side of the restored fill.
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Or construct a large pile driver and drive pilings.
Do like the Union Pacific did on the Lane Cutoff in Omaha, NE. Construct a large wood trestle and then keep dumping fill until the trestle is buried.
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UP wasn't the only one who did that. I think all of the two footers here in Maine had a wooden trestle they filled in with dirt, without removing the wood. Hancock Brook arch bridge on the B&SR was originally a wooden trestle. Dickey Trestle on the SR&RL, same thing. And some of the trestle in Wiscasset was filled in over time.
In our case, the first thing that needs to be done is get an excavator in the hole and find the bottom. Someplace solid to start rebuilding on. Wheather we use the boxes Stewart is talking about or just plain Maine Boulders is hard to say. Lately I have seen what we call blast rock used in such areas. These rocks can be 5 or 6 feet across and weigh several thousand pounds a piece. Blasted from ledge usually. Maybe Crooker and Sons up the road has some in their quarry.
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This is the best image I have, still very hard to get a sense of things. Obviously everyone is standing at the edge -- approximately in the middle of the ROW.
Ok, i thought the slide covered the ROW, not came out from underneath it.
well, that's a different kind of meatball. i can tell abaout how to deal with it, but for now, i would think the marines construction unit need an excersise. This could be made verry realistic to the field for them. ...hevy rains washed out a supply line. repair the damage so that...ect...ect...
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Alright I said I wouldn't do this but I cant resist ;)
The blast rock method would work all right here. once the head of steel gets near this area we could easily put some temp track (mayby instead of 'bog track' lay 1 tie in four with 40#) down for acess and do most of the work ourselves. A few ancors into the hilside combined with two 20ft. by 16in. logs and some 3 over 3 pullys and you could have an on site crane like what the Sawyer river RR used to load thier log bunks. the pullys alone will reduce the load felt to 1/6. We could also use 4 over 4 and see only 1/8. Our flatcars can safely hold how many tons?
The blast rock mixed with heavy fill and gravel will make a stable base for the trains to run on. No matter what it will have to be built as a gravity wall.
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This is definately something we don't want to tackle. Placing the rocks would be difficult using a flatcar. The fill could be delivered by flatcar but the rail would be in the way of the excavator to come back out. And not to mention, that's one big hole. Lots of gravel needed there.
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Mike's right. This project is going to require several terraces from the bottom up from which a Prentice loader with a l grapple can place blast rock or gabion baskets, to be followed by a Gradall placing fill material. Tri-axles will haul in many loads of gravel and dirt to build a new fill. We may also have to place dead-eyes and pilings. In fact, we may have to figure out how to access this project from both ends of the right of way. The original fill failed at least in part because it was not built and compacted, and the weight of the trees and the pressure of weather and water pushed it down. We don't want to that to happen again, even if it does take another hundred years!
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Ok, I know what pilings are,....
what's a deadeye?
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Deadeye? Is that what I wrote? Oh man, I must be losing it. I meant deadman, a fixture driven into a hillside or fill to help hold it in place. It's got a thing on the end that opens like an umbrella once it's in place and pressure is applied.
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Looking at the maps, it appears that if an access route could be constructed on the edge of the cleared property just north of the 1st washout one could access both the washout and the landslide area. It would make sense to have some type of "haul route" from the landslide to the washout in order to use the spoil from one to act as the fill for the other. The additional item to consider is to have a run-around at TOM so that it can be used as a supply staging point in the future.
If we really are looking a several years before we would be in a position to rebuild the trestle, then we have time to work the washout and landslide issues ourselves instead of getting a contractor. Some equipment rental (yes) but I can already tell we have people in the organization that know a lot about horizontal construction and can handle this situation. This would really help in reducing costs.
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An access road is being built from 218 to an area about 1000 feet north of TOM. Although it's at the request of the landowner, it will help us out immensely with fixing up the washout. There's already a road partway there, so it's not forging a completely new trail, and it will go along the edge of the field. This is probably the area John Kokas is talking about.
Interesting talk about how to do this. I'd hate to be the fellow driving the excavator down the hill to start the stabilization work.
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Wayne and Mike are right about the construction techniques and source. Terraced gabions or terraces with deadman anchors are the best way to go. I suggested gabion baskets because I was involved in the reconstruction of a wash out on a standard gauge line a few years ago. The work was done with gabions by a licensed contractor. The insurance carrier required it due to passenger trains using the line. We should do the same. Railroad construction has very specific load requirements. Unlike highways where the load force area is wider (because the load and travel path can vary), railroads have a specific load plane. The field under the ballast is very important but the shoulders and ditching are the key, especially on a hillside where the fill is new.
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I think we are going to have to bite the bullet on this one. The repair of the slide will have to be done by a contractor. I've looked down that hillside, and it's a long way down to the bottom. I don't know whether we have any members able to operate the kinds of heavy equipment necessary, but I think it's a given that there probably aren't enough volunteers available on a continuous basis to accomplish the work in a timely manner. This isn't a three or four-day weekend job. It will take a couple of months!
As I mentioned in an early post, I believe the state Department of Conservation/Environment is going to be keeping an eye on this project, and they could well require us to use a qualified contractor. I think it's going to be a two-year project anyway, before get to the point of building track.
And as Stewart noted, the fact remains that a new fill must be built on a steep hillside and making sure it stays put is the key to this project.
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Mike,
Can't you make several loads of rip rap appear in the slide???
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Josh, it would be nice if it was that easy. A lot of the little perks we used to get like that have been removed.
As for the slide repair, it is definately something a contractor would have to do. I can run all kinds of equipment but like Wayne said, it's more than a one day job. So then you run into the multiple delivery charges of the excavator or what ever piece you would need.
Also, a contractor could deliver the material to the site as needed. You won't find too many people willing to deliver the material as we need it, on a Saturday or Sunday.
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Time to call out the troops?
IIRC, the Maine National Guard(Reserves?)unit in Augusta is a construction unit.
This would be an excellent training project and the cost to the State would be minimal. They could go home every night! This could be a win-win for all parties.
I know this was discussed several years ago but this may be the time to rethink the subject.
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Calling out the troops is "a process". First, is there any members whom are ArNG (Army National Guard) members also. They can provide chain of command contacts. Second, local political support (state level) representatives and senators. Third, any contacts or associations through either the Governor's office or the Adjutant General's office (head of the Guard).
Since this definitely qualifies as a "training project" for Army combat and construction engineers, Air National Guard (civil engineer squadrons), and Seabees you've got a choice of groups OR a rotational project where many units can train on a project. ;)
Get the local support, get the Adjutant General interested, file a request with the A.G. and Gov. then let the pol's help push. Providing items such as fuel, food, and ancillary items will help show our commitment and also creates good will with the troops.
I've done many of these over the years in my military career, most were really fun and the troops love them because they help their local community.
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Who was the contact for getting the Marines in 2001? The arrangements took a year or two but the contingent arrived in August, 2001. They stayed for two weeks and brought all necessary equipment to repair the approach grade and build the Humason Brook trestle. The museum provided the prefab trestle members and supported the operation with meals etc. The Marines completed the trestle project so quickly that we had them pour the concrete floor for the machine shop. They really enjoyed their stay in Maine. We held a lobster bake for them as a thank you before they went back to Detroit. I'm sure someone on the forum remembers the Marine Officers name. I think he is a member of the museum, maybe the BOD can contact him with information on the washout project.
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I was told that the Marines from Michigan were deployed to Iraq several times and were not available.
With all the cost cutting, getting the Maine Army group would logistically make more sense.
I believe Allan knows the contact in Augusta.
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Discussions are already started to get the Marine Detachment to spend a month and build the Trout Brook Bridge. This appears to have a good chance of success, and the paperwork for this will be started in mid 2009.
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Realizing that we have an ongoing relationship with the marines,
I believe the maine nationa gaurd has multiple companies of engineers. These engineers have the appropriate equimpent to do this kind of work. I believe you can find companies in Augusta, and Belfast.
I also recall that the ARMY Gaurd out of Bangor, has equipment and manning to do this type of work. I recalll that they used to do road maintanince for the Stud Mill/St. Regis road in return full use of the land for active duty. The 2 weeks of active duity was spent doing maintancie. This of course went away when the gas pipeline went in.
It may be worth pursueing the Maine Guard. If the board is interested I could inquire with some contacts.
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When did you guys got suport from the Army? :o ::) :D
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Don't forget the Air National Guard in Bangor. They should have an Engineering Squadron with the Refueling Wing. Although they probably would not have all the required construction heavy equipment, that can usually be arranged with the Army. The key is having the support of the Adjutant General of the State and many things will fall into place after that. Get support from the local state rep.'s and senators to help grease the skids. If it was during the summer, I'd find a way to come up and work as a liason and project manager for the work.
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Never had the Army, it was the Marines from Detroit, Mich. Aug 2001
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Does anyone have any photos of the right of way that heads south from Sheepscot station to the Beaver Dam? :) ;) :)
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Now THAT'S a good question!
It seems I've seen some somewhere (NERails?) but I can't say how far south the pics went.
I'd LOVE to see some pics of that area myself, at least as far as one is able to walk on it.
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Pete.
I took some photos of that area a few years ago. Not sure if they are in my 35 mm collection or my digital collection. I'll have to do a search and let you know.
Duncan
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I found some on NERail: http://photos.nerail.org (http://photos.nerail.org)
A great aerial shot:
http://photos.nerail.org/showpic/?photo=2006100820410329877.jpg (http://photos.nerail.org/showpic/?photo=2006100820410329877.jpg)
This is the result of the beaver dam. The cameraman is standing on the center line of the ROW.
http://photos.nerail.org/showpic/?photo=20051122182624649.jpg (http://photos.nerail.org/showpic/?photo=20051122182624649.jpg)
These two photos are of the same view - just across the street from the station. One shows the ROW flooded. This happens occasionally - and is not due to the beaver dam further south.
http://photos.nerail.org/showpic/?photo=2006020917015016631.jpg (http://photos.nerail.org/showpic/?photo=2006020917015016631.jpg)
http://photos.nerail.org/showpic/?photo=2006011419381812180.jpg (http://photos.nerail.org/showpic/?photo=2006011419381812180.jpg)
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Excellent work!
Yes, those are the shots (some of them) that I remember seeing before. Thanks for digging (no pun intended) up. ;)
This brings to mind annother thought:
Since, IF the ROW is ever extended south, the track-bed would need to be brought level with Cross Road, Would that
a) aleviate the flooding shown in the last photo,
and if it continued far enough South at that level/hieght
b) be high enough to cross the water past the "bever pond?"
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a. Yes.
b. No.
The beaver pond is much further south, and the ROW there is flooded all the time. There is road that crosses the ROW right in front of the flooded area. This road is a good 4 feet higher than the ROW. Unless the road is cut down, we'll have to build up to meet it. Then, we *could* potentially fill across the pond, provided:
1. The EPA (and other government agencies) let us.
2. The land owner, who has a cabin on the edge of the ROW, agrees to let us through.
Honestly, I think it is much more likely that we would cross 218 towards Head Tide before we would try to build south of Sheepscot. The ROW north of 218 is quite scenic along the Sheepscot River, the ROW south is just woods.
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It would be a great advantage to build south (in the future), for the following reasons:
1. Connect with the Rt. 1 summer traffic.
2. Connect with the Maine Eastern RR
3. Local connection with Wiscasset (historical).
There are probably more reasons but those listed will bring in money.
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a. Yes.
b. No.
The beaver pond is much further south, and the ROW there is flooded all the time. There is road that crosses the ROW right in front of the flooded area. This road is a good 4 feet higher than the ROW. Unless the road is cut down, we'll have to build up to meet it. Then, we *could* potentially fill across the pond, provided:
1. The EPA (and other government agencies) let us.
2. The land owner, who has a cabin on the edge of the ROW, agrees to let us through.
Honestly, I think it is much more likely that we would cross 218 towards Head Tide before we would try to build south of Sheepscot. The ROW north of 218 is quite scenic along the Sheepscot River, the ROW south is just woods.
Gotcha.
Hey, I realize it's all off in "Whentheheckever Land," but that clears up my picture of the topography a bit. Thanks. :)
I know it was brought up already, perhaps in this verry thread, but I do like the idea of going "just far enough" south of Sheepscot/Cross Rd. to give a NB train a place to come from, as was (apparently as forementioned) Harry's original scheme.
But to do that there'd be no need to "cross the pond."
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It would be a great advantage to build south (in the future), for the following reasons:
1. Connect with the Rt. 1 summer traffic.
2. Connect with the Maine Eastern RR
3. Local connection with Wiscasset (historical).
All true. However, the ridership/revenue increase would never even come close to covering the cost of construction.
I do like the idea of going "just far enough" south of Sheepscot/Cross Rd. to give a NB train a place to come from
I think that is something that would be reasonable to do, but after we cross 218 to the north and start dealing with the FRA, etc.
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It would be a great advantage to build south (in the future), for the following reasons:
1. Connect with the Rt. 1 summer traffic.
2. Connect with the Maine Eastern RR
3. Local connection with Wiscasset (historical).
There are probably more reasons but those listed will bring in money.
Well John, while those are good reasons, even I realize it'll be a VERRY long time if ever that those things happen as 1) the RR owns NO property inside Wiscassett town lines and 2) there are SEVERAL houses and a few minor and at least a major road to cross to get there.
Don't get me wrong, I'd LOVE to see it happen, but I think it much more realistic to envision going south "just enough" within the next 10-20 yrs or so.
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Actually, it is my understanding that the RR owns one very small piece of land in Wiscasset.
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We own a half acre of right of way in Wiscasset, thanks to a generous land owner.
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Duncan Mackiewicz sent me a set of 7 pictures to share with everyone. I have linked them here (rather than post them) since some of our forum participants still use dial-up connections.
From North (Sheepscot Station) to South (just before the beaver pond)
http://www.spongeawareness.com/maps/row_south_1.JPG (http://www.spongeawareness.com/maps/row_south_1.JPG)
http://www.spongeawareness.com/maps/row_south_2.JPG (http://www.spongeawareness.com/maps/row_south_2.JPG)
http://www.spongeawareness.com/maps/row_south_3.JPG (http://www.spongeawareness.com/maps/row_south_3.JPG)
http://www.spongeawareness.com/maps/row_south_4.JPG (http://www.spongeawareness.com/maps/row_south_4.JPG)
http://www.spongeawareness.com/maps/row_south_5.JPG (http://www.spongeawareness.com/maps/row_south_5.JPG)
http://www.spongeawareness.com/maps/row_south_6.JPG (http://www.spongeawareness.com/maps/row_south_6.JPG)
http://www.spongeawareness.com/maps/row_south_7.JPG (http://www.spongeawareness.com/maps/row_south_7.JPG)
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Thanks for the pics Duncan..... Would love to see more. I as well as everyone else realizes that going back to Wiscasset is a looonnnggg way off. But being the eternal optimist, I will harken back to a baseball saying, " build it and they will come ". We have our own Field of Dreams, it's just a wee bit narrower but a lot longer..... ;)
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John,
I thought actually seeing what the ROW looks like cleared at ground level all the way to the beaver pond would give everyone a better understanding. Now those folks who have not yet visited or have visited but not taken the time to hike it can see see how far the pond really is and what the topography of the ROW is like.
Duncan
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Duncan,
Thanks again for the photos. As they say, a picture is worth a thousand words. Does the museum own or have easements for this whole section?
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Does the museum own or have easements for this whole section?
Yes.
I *think* we may even own all (or most) of the ROW to the Alna/Wiscasset town line.
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I'm just curious where the "half acre" in Wiscassett actually is. Is it on the Wiscassett/Alna town line or is it "deep in the wilds" of Wiscasset?
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We (technically the Wiscasset & Quebec Railroad Company) own most of the right of way from Cross Road to the Wiscasset Town Line, minus about a 1000 feet south of the pond at the dam.
Our land in Wiscasset is about 200 feet north of the Middle school, the second of two properties north of the school's property. Watch for the 100 foot high billboard coming soon....oh wait, we can't do that (Maine has an anti-billboard law).
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Watch for the 100 foot high billboard coming soon....oh wait, we can't do that (Maine has an anti-billboard law).
It hasn't stopped the Poland Spring Inn in Poland. A big 15' or so hogh by 25' or so wide billboard right next to a busy highway.
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Why is it that the right-of-way from Cross Road south to the dam is free of trees and stumps? Was it cleared to provide access to the dam? maybe when the dam was built?
The map on page 6 of the Tours by Bill Reidy book looks like the west side of the reservoir could be filled in to restore the roadbed. If there was a large construction project project in the area with excess spoil it might be something to keep in mind. Like maybe if the Wiscassett by pass project ever came to fruition?
Win Nowell
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We cleared the trees from the ROW about 10 years ago.
The dam south of Cross road was, I think I have heard, put in in the 50s. Road access is a road direct from 218. The water level should by rights be about 5 feet below the level it is now, but because of branches, stumps, and other junk in front of the outflow pipes there's very little water flowing through it. Lower the water level and you probably find the roadbed again.
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To expand on what James wrote...
The access road is labeled "Verney Mill Road" on most current maps.
The ROW closest to the museum is kept mowed for overflow parking and some limited camping. After that, it is maintained as a hiking trail for anyone who wants to see the reason(s) why we can't immediately build to the south.
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And there are some stumps down that way too. Just trimmed close to the ground out of the way.
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It's worth a walk on the grade South of Cross Road to see the intact W&Q era sub-stringers in the water at the brook crossing. There's a foot bridge you can stand on to look down and see them. There's 4 timbers running parallel to the grade that originally supported a wood and stone box culvert.
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From the current end of track(EOT), how far is it to the proposed access road from Highway 218?
If not too far, it might make some sense to extend the track to that point for rail access to the reconstruction site. this would allow both vehicle and train access to those areas.
Comments?
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There is a washout between where the access road will intersect the ROW and the current end of track. It's the first washout pictured in Ed's pictures, located in another thread. This is also where I found some bolts when we were cutting it off. No remains of a culvert to be seen. I was wondering if there could have been some kind of trestle there. It will be a plastic pipe when we are done.
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One of the books noted a cattle overpass near the Top of the Mountain. I wonder if that was it.
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One of the books noted a cattle overpass near the Top of the Mountain. I wonder if that was it.
If the aleged washout was in fact a cattle overpass I think we should rebuild it as a cattle overpass. It will add to the history of the railroad and give the docents something to talk about instead of trees. Besides shouldn't we try to represent the origional railroad? Cattle overpasses were commonplace and are as much a piece of history as #9 is. I think we should rebuild it as a cattle overpass, even if there are no cattle to pass over.
It's the first washout pictured in Ed's pictures, located in another thread. This is also where I found some bolts when we were cutting it off. No remains of a culvert to be seen. I was wondering if there could have been some kind of trestle there. It will be a plastic pipe when we are done.
It would be a shame to loose that piece of history about the railroad, however small.
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Vincent;
If research confirms that's where it was, I think it's a great idea and certainly in keeping with how we do things.
Dave
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A couple of years ago when we were cutting around the Top of the Mountain, I said something about the overpass. We got back to Sheepscot and got the book out. The picture that says it is a cattle overpass was actually a picture of a train at the Head Tide Station. There was a little stream there that the train passed over via a small trestle. If I recall, looking at the picture, the train is headed south. And looking through the trees, you can see the Sheepscot River.
What someone needs to find is the kind of detailed track map that the Bridgton Historical society has for the B&SR. The location of every cross pipe, telegraph pole, station, siding (when the map was made), and even local businesses were on it. Anything like that for the WW&F?
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I thought there was a map of the line that is something like 60 ft long or so that Harry got from The Winters instatute when he purchiested the remaining property that shows the line at the time of abandenment. Any info on that?
Paul Horky
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The Wiscasset & Quebec Chairman has a copy of Harry's 55 foot map of the WW&F Right of Way - but it is only the original survey done for the W&Q with Harry's notes on all parcels of land and their status as of about 1999.
The SR&RL & the Bridgton & Saco River had detailed Real Estate Valuation maps of all of their Right of Way Property, probably originally fone for the national railroad valuation for the ICC in 1914-1917 period with updates to the end of operations. We have copies of all of these maps in our archives. (SR&RL is about 115 separate sheets and B&SR about 25 sheets)
WW&F never had this done , but there were some abbreviated ROW maps done in 1901-1907 period that are in the archives.
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Allen thanks for that info. Guess Sam never had the money to have a full set of valuation maps drawn up even in the Peck years or maybe the underpass was no longer needed by that time so was filled in.
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What is a cattle overpass and what does it look like? ??? ::) :)
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A cattle overpass is a small bridge designed to allow a railroad to pass over a grazing area for cattle so that the cattle can access the grass on both sides of the track (without having to climb up and over the embankment or through the fenced-off right of way.)
I have never seen a photo of one, nor one in person.
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We own a cattle pass, on our ROW in Whitefield. It's about a third of mile in from where 218 and 194 come together. It's a concrete underpass, from what I can tell.
It would be a neat idea to put in a cattle pass on the Fossell ROW where the big hole is, but unfortunately nobody on the train would see it. Maybe we should put it in so that the natural sunbathers can have a place to hide when the train goes by (this is a family-oriented train ride after all).
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Matt, it all depends on the railroad as to what the overpass looks like. Some are basically a trestle, others are made of stone like a stone culvert, some of the newer ones are made of corrugated steel. Of course, we would build an older style one, if any. Though I think it will just be filled in as no photographic evidence has appeared yet showing an overpass there.
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Maine law required a line fence along both sides of the track. When the railroad was built along the river at Whitefield it blocked access to the water from the field to the East. The cattle pass was built so the cows had access to the river. The pass is solid poured concrete with a slight arch in the roof. It's about 6 feet high in the center. If there was a cattle pass near TOM it was not concrete, since there are no remnants. It was most likely a wooden trestle as Mike mentioned. I have the ICC evaluation of the line, listing trestles. I'll check it when I get a chance -although I have discovered that the list does not include some culverts. Probably because they were installed after 1917.