W.W.&F. Discussion Forum
WW&F Railway Museum Discussion => Museum Discussion => Topic started by: John McNamara on April 21, 2015, 08:45:13 PM
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Some time ago I was wanting to buy something for #52 and contacted Williams Distribution, parts suppliers for Plymouth locomotives. Their first question was "What's the serial number?" I have been unable to determine this despite pursuing several suggestions from people claiming to know where it is to be found in the cab, in the engine compartment, etc.
I recently purchased a binder/book compiled by R. H. Lehmuth of St. Georg, Utah. This lists the build dates, gauge, model designations, power plant, and horsepower for all Plymouth locomotives from 1939 through 2002. There are ten listed for Carpenter Steel:
Serial 5896, 1/18/1956, Carpenter Steel #12
Serial 5970, 10/3/1956, Carpenter Steel #13, Edaville Railroad #12
Serial 6034, 8/2/1957, Carpenter Steel #14, LaPorte Steam Assn, Heston, Ind.
Serial 6151, 12/12/1958, Carpenter Steel #15, LaPorte Steam Assn, Heston, Ind.
Serial 6220, 3/7/1960, Carpenter Steel #16, High Country RR Golden CO, Nevada Traction $2 Nevada City CA
Serial 6290, 1/16/1963, Carpenter Steel #17, Wiscasset Waterville & Farmington Ry Alma Center ME
Serial 6367, 7/19/1963, Carpenter Steel #18
Serial 6554, 5/17/1967, Carpenter Steel #19
Serial 6601, 10/25/1967, Carpenter Steel #20 (15 tons)
Serial 6602, 10/27/1967, Carpenter Steel #21 (15 tons)
Except as noted, all are model DDT-6, powered by a GM 4-71, 160 HP, 12 tons.
Also of interest is Serial 7086, 10/29/75, a 71 HP, 10 ton unit powered by a Caterpillar 3304NA. built for US Metals Refining, Carteret NJ and listed as being at Maine Narrow Gauge.
As is the case with so many research projects, this information produces lots of questions:
1. I've been told (by James?) #52 was built in 1967. Where does that information come from and is it accurate?
2. Why no mention of Biddeford Station? Dwight?
3. Is the Maine Narrow Gauge information accurate? Bill Piche?
4. I think Allan Fisher has some information about #52.
Please pardon the red letters; I just wanted to catch the attention of those folks.
-John
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1. I've been told (by James?) #52 was built in 1967. Where does that information come from and is it accurate?
Over the years I've heard dates all over the place, from the 50s through to the 70s. So I wouldn't trust anything I told you (about this subject matter, you should trust me on other things). If this fellow has done his research then I'd trust what he says.
The engine at Biddeford Station is larger than ours, so it must be one of the 15 tonners. There might even be two of them there, a parts source, because I remember when we first had contact with the people selling our engine they had 3 - two worked, one was a parts source. We took one, and I think Biddeford got the other two.
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The engine in our locomotive is a Detroit 4-71. That signifies 4 cylinders, each with 71 cubic inches of displacement. Detroit = GM, so I suspect the 4-71 got transposed to 4-17 at some point.
I wonder where this fellow determined our loco's serial number, when we can't do the same. I'm not doubting it; he must have access to some pedigree information that we don't. It would be nice to have.
I only remember Biddeford having one, and know that Edaville had two. They were in Watertown NY, stored, last I knew.
See ya
Jason
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The engine in our locomotive is a Detroit 4-71. That signifies 4 cylinders, each with 71 cubic inches of displacement. Detroit = GM, so I suspect the 4-71 got transposed to 4-17 at some point.
I can tell you where the transposition occurred. I'm looking at the source right now - my fingers. ;D
I've made the edit. Thanks!
I'll get in touch with the author and see if he can say more about his source.
-John
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Also missing from his roster is this 2' Gauge Plymouth from Carpenter Steel:
http://www.readingrailroad.org/roster/roster_loco_319.html
Interesting that it is #319 - maybe that is a typo and should be #19? (Note that # and 3 are the same key on the keyboard.)
It survives at the Reading Company Technical & Historical Society (http://"http://www.readingrailroad.org/").
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On page 2 of the May/June 1997 WW&F Newsletter, there's a Fred Morse photo our loco arriving on April 9, 1997. The number on the door is 317, and the number on the side of the cab is M 02801. Therefore, I think that Carpenter Steel may have numbered their "dinkys" in the 300 series.
The Reading Company Technical & Historical Society web listing is very detailed, but has some differences from the listing I posted. If our #317 is really #17, that suggests the RCT&HS #319 is Carpenter #19, but that would mean it's Serial 6554, 5/17/1967 according to the Lenmuth listing that I quoted.
I have sent Mr. Lenmuth an email essentially asking (politely) where/how he got the information on our loco.
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I would suspect the Biddeford Loco is one of the 15 tons. Builders plates used to be riveted on, and quite possibly over time fell off. If the guy has detailed info, get the serial number of the motor and we can compare.
Maine Narrow Gauge does have the Cat powered one, although out of service.
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Bob Lenmuth's reply to my question about the provenance of his information:
Thanks for your note. Glad to hear you were able to glean the information you needed.
The data re: Alma Center, ME was from the Carpenter Steel data in my files. Carpenter Steel, in Reading, Pa., had quite an interesting roster of small Plymouths as well a few other "different critters" over the years. Undoubtedly, it was recorded by someone who was being told the info to record. I have tracked a lot of small errors like that over the years. Occupational hazard <g> I presume !!!!
I utilized my copies of Plymouth (Fate-Root-Heath) 1 handwritten and 1 typed from Plymouth (Fate-Root-Heath)and copies of the Carpenter Steel's rosters - obtained from 2 different former employees of the company.
I have been fortunate in that I am just old enough to have "salvaged" a lot of data as these items were being trashed - due to many reasons. Also, I have a very good friend who is one of the surviving members of my precedent generation who also salvaged assorted data ; he was close friends of Jerry Best, Mac Poor, Guy Dunscomb, Bill Edson, Richard Prince - many of the early data "savers"
If I can help on anything else, let me know and will try.
Unfortunately, I haven't been back in your area for a while, so I have not had the opportunity to see your ops - would like to, though. I have always enjoyed New England !!!! <g>
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MNG has about half a dozen critter diesels. One of the rusty oos ones looks like #52, but I'm not a diesel guy so I haven't payed much attention.
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The Plymouth at MNG that looks like No. 52 has a Caterpillar engine and appears to be a bit larger than No. 52.