W.W.&F. Discussion Forum
WW&F Railway Museum Discussion => Work and Events => Topic started by: Matthew Gustafson on December 10, 2008, 08:11:39 PM
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Ive heard about you guys are building a black, open, carlike, railcar in the Car Shops? Hows that going? ??? :) :D
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(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-8/342468/railcarimagecorrect.jpg)
(Photo by Leon Weeks, courtesy of Dave Buczkowski and Stephen Hussar)
This is what the car looked like in the Spring of 2007.
As I understand it, the car itself it pretty much done. A testament to one of our master craftsmen, Leon Weeks.
The WW&F crew (led by Jason L.) is working on completing the wheels, running gear, etc. There are pictures elsewhere in this forum of that work.
I'm guessing that we'll see it rolling along the rails in 2009?
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Master craftsman Leon Weeks built the car. Jason Lamontagne (our CMO) is doing the running gear.
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The tires showed up yesterday for the railcar. Nice and new looking. Stack of 4 on the left is the railcars. The 2 on the right are for #11
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2006-11/1225939/100_1464.jpg)
Looking down at the tires
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2006-11/1225939/100_1467.jpg)
And finally, a keyway was recently cut into the new drive axle.
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2006-11/1225939/100_1465.jpg)
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Thanks for the photos Mike. They look good, especially the two thick ones for #11's pony truck
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I remember when we put the new tires on our moguls wheels at Pine Creek. An interesting thing to watch. We ended up making a rig to support the wheel set above the floor then made a special hook to hang the tire from. It was hung almost againts the wheel and the hook was designed so the tire could be slid off it. Put the fire ring around it and lit it up. Very neat.
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slooper wrote:
What about building a Motor Car similar to S.R.& R.L. Ry #3, using the KISS principle. Use relative modern power plant from small car/truck (something common for ease of parts), gas, four banger with auto transmission (with In Park Locking pawl), Keeping the power brakes for normal operation. Disk brake rotor outboard wheel and before bearing. This would allow easy replacement of pads and rotors. Emergency/Parking brake could be a band type on drive shaft. Seats could be "standard" slatted park bench type, three or four for passengers and one for operator. Safety chains between seats. Hood, Grill, head lights, dash and wind shield frame from vintage car or truck (search the junk yards). Add turntable, like those on speeders or Electro-Switch tampers. Unload passengers at end of track and turn it around. Only need a few inches of lift, one person can do it. No need to operate in reverse over the entire round trip.
The car could be used for crew movement and/or revenue service on week days, when regular train not in operation.
James Patten replied:
One of our volunteers is working on a Model-T ford railcar. He has the body and motor built, all that is needed is the running gear and wheels, and the wheels are being cast now and will need to be machined. It will also have a method of turning, much like you suggest.
I expect it will see revenue use during slow days.
Stephen Hussar replied:
Leon has done quite a bit more since this photo was taken last spring...
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-8/342468/railcarimagecorrect.jpg)
jockellis replied:
That is so cool! Leon, how much of that is stock Model T?
Jock Ellis
Dave Buczkowski replied:
Jock;
Leon doesn't spend too much time on the computer though he did email me the photos that I then posted with Steve's advice. Leon gathered the parts including the engine from various sources including flea markets and Old Ford gatherings. In other words, the parts are not from one particular vehicle. I believe that, basically form the cowl forward are Ford parts. the frame, seats, flooring, etc. were all either built by Leon or came from non-Ford sources.
Dave
Duncan Mackiewicz replied:
Dave, et al;
It's obvious that Leon has done one heckuva job on this motor car. It doesn't matter where the parts came from just the talent of the man assembling them. Three cheers for Leon.
Duncan
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Hello all,
We're currently planning on putting the tires on the railcar wheelsets on Saturday, February 7, probably in the afternoon.
This will be preceded by the assembly of the wheelsets on Friday, and fire ring set up on Saturday morning.
Anyone interested in seeing this process is invited. If the wheelset assembly drags out- some of Saturday may be chewed up finishing that process. Sunday is our backup plan to finish tires if necessary, though this is unexpected.
We won't be putting tires on No 11's lead wheelset as we have not made an axle for it yet. This will be secondary to some substantial progress on No 9.
After this, the railcar will need bearing housings, a new drive shaft and a torque tube. While still important and involved, this work is minor enough that we'll feel comfortable starting the No 9 project again.
We have full intentions of putting the railcar in service by (or during) May.
Jason
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Jason;
I'm going to show my ignorance for all to see as there may be one or two people who don't know the answer to this. Why are the wheels in two pieces? By two I mean the wheel and tire. I understand the concept on an automobile where the wheel is steel (or alloy) and the tire is rubber composite because of handling, traction, ride, etc. But the materials are essentially the same on a railroad wheel. Is it because the tire can wear out? (which I haven't seen happen at the Museum) It would seem easier to cast it all at once. Just wondering. Thanks.
Dave
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It is because tires wear out, and it's cheaper to replace a tire than to replace an entire wheel (and press the wheel off and press a new one one), especially on a locomotive where you have all kinds of fancy shapes and weights in a wheel.
I think that on our non-engine rolling stock the wheels and the tires are the same unit, so to fix tires on the wheel you change out the wheel. Once the snow melts you can see what I mean - take a look at the wheelset sitting by the Green House. It used to be under coach 3, and was changed out because the flange was sharp.
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There is another reason that is just as important as what James has said. That is the materials quality. The center of the wheel can be cast steel that has great strength and is tough as nails. Where the tire can be made of a material that is heat treated for hardness and wear resistance. You may then ask...why aren't car wheels built the same way? There is a good reason for that as well. The majority of train braking is done on the cars, and not with the locomotive wheels. It is not uncommon for a train descending a long grade to have the "retainers set" and in essence having the brakes applied for twenty or thirty miles. That much friction causes a great deal of heat....enough to loosen the tire! Back when I ran GG-1 you were not permitted to use the engine's brakes other than to hold the engine while already stopped! They had incidents where sloppy engineer's had used the independant brake and the tires came off while the train was moving at high speed! So...tires are used where replacing the wheel would be very expensive, such as a locomotive driver, and solid wheels used where there is a chance of a great amount of brake use on lond descending grades.
Keith
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Gentlemen;
Thanks for the prompt responses. I guess it's what I thought. I just replaced tire on two vehicles so I know how expensive that can all get.
Dave
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Folks
I am not an engineer or anything mechanical so it has to be simple.
I am a simple rail fan who likes narrow gauge among other things.
Why are you pressing tires onto a wheel center? Wouldn't be easier to simply press a cast wheel onto an axel; like they do for freight cars and street cars?
The weight of a Model T or similar body must be small when compared to a typical narrow gauge freight car.
Thanks,
Ted Miles
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OK. a few completed shots of the front Axle. Very nice. Stephen took all kinds of photos of how we got to this point.
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2006-11/1225939/100_1573.jpg)
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2006-11/1225939/100_1574.jpg)
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2006-11/1225939/100_1575.jpg)
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Mike,
Nice pictures of the "tired" wheels.
Duncan
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Some pictures from the WW&F version of "The Lord of the Rings":
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2006-10/1221509/IMG_0361.JPG)
With apologies to Johnny Cash, fortunately no one fell in:
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2006-10/1221509/IMG_0365.JPG)
The ring master dropping a hot tire onto the wheel center:
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2006-10/1221509/IMG_0366.JPG)
Basically, the assembly went very well, with Jason's modified Model T rear end going together nicely, and then the wheels were pressed on over at Ken Boudin's (I think that's the right spelling) machine shop, thank you Ken! Once that was done, it was back to the new car shed extension where the tires were heated up and dropped onto the wheel centers.
The culmination of many many hours of work by our volunteers and a big leap forward for the Model T railcar.
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Excellent documentation of the job, thanks to everyone who filmed and posted the views.
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Here is a pictutre of Bernies pattern. Roughly the same angle as my second shot above. Incase no one has seen it before.
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2006-11/1225939/Wheelpattern.jpg)
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It is amazing what is being done at the WW&F shops. Each person adds their own talents and cumulatively the whole job gets done. The whole process seems slow, but each step requires careful planning and measuring. I really appreciate all the planning that went into the "ring of fire" assembly, and of course, all the machining to make all the parts fit perfectly. Keep up the good work.
Now, like all the guys who start dreaming about the next locomotive, I will throw out a suggestion for the next Model T railcar: How about a single seat pick-up vehicle similar to RGS #1 at the Ridgeway Museum, or the work goose at the CRRM, except give it that distinctive "Maine Look". It should be aged by letting all the dents in the olde parts and paint it a flat black, so it would look like something that was just wisked out of the past after it spent several years out doing maintenance work. The tool space would just be rough boards, and it would be great for doing trackwork.
Bern
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Mike,
Thanx for posting the picture of the wheel center pattern. I'm hoping the next one will be the driver center pattern. Great photos Gordon, Mike and Steve.
Bern
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Bernie,
Great job, as always.
I like your idea on the "work T". Since I am a short drive from the Colorado Railroad Museum, I would be happy to supply on site information on the three Geese housed at CRM. Motor #6 is the work Goose and it is at CRM.
Ira
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I like the T pickup railcar idea too. It would be keeping in the time period while being functional.
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Jason
Guess the next item up for the motor car will be pedistals and bearings. Have you found something comercally availible or will Bernie Perch have to make a pattern for that?
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Here are a few more beginning with Gordon at the press...
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-8/342468/Gordonwheelpresswidesm.jpg)
Gordon pressing wheels onto the rear axle
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-8/342468/Mikechecksringvertsm.jpg)
Mike Fox roughs in the position of one of the tires...
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-8/342468/MikeJasontempchecksm.jpg)
Mike and Jason monitor the temperature...
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-8/342468/ringoffirecusm.jpg)
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-8/342468/postdropcusm.jpg)
A few taps with a lead mallet and she drops...
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-8/342468/railcarfrontwheelsinshopsm.jpg)
Front wheelset for the railcar ready to go.
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Great pictures everyone.
Does anyone know if Jason was successful in getting the 4th tire on this morning?
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Steve, Thanks for the great pictures. Seeing them is almost as good as being there.
I like Bernie's idea for a Model T work/pickup railcar. The RGS #1 type car would look great as a two foot gauge Model T. We could build one along the lines of a TT truck with a C cab and wooden flatbed that would look good and come in handy for track work. Of course any additional car will need everything we have been making for the current Model T. If we do not build a work T I'd like to see us build a replica of the WW&F's original open touring car that Manley Glidden built. The running gear would be the same as the parts we just built and everything above the frame is easy to get. That car would be a little safer for passengers, especially small children. If the open touring car were built the current Model T could become a work T by removing the seats - although I think it's too pretty for that duty. Leon did a beautiful job on our current Model T and others have spent hours on the project. I'm really looking forward to seeing the car on the rails this Summer. I can already see a photo op at AC with #10 on the siding with a freight train and the Model AA truck waiting at the crossing as the Model T railcar scoots by. It's all good!!
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Does anyone know if Jason was successful in getting the 4th tire on this morning?
It has been reported back to me that the 4th tire was successfully installed on Monday. Congratulations, Jason et al.
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I am not making patterns for the pedestals and journal boxes. If these parts are being cast, someone else is making the patterns. I am assuming that these are being fabbed in some way. Maybe someone else up there can fill us in on how these parts are being made.
On Leon's railcar, some sort of easily removable guards could be put in place to keep people from falling out. I don't think he would approve of it being downgraded to work status if a sedan were made. I know I wouldn't.
Bernie
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Bernie, I agree that the Model T should not be reassigned to permanent work status. My thought was that the car could be used from time to time by a Saturday morning track crew going out to make some quick repairs if 52 was not available and the Brookville didn't start. You could slide a few tools under the seats from the back and a piece of canvas on the deck would protect the floor. In that case removing the seats would not be necessary. When the crew came back and removed the tools the car would be ready for passengers. The nice thing about the car is that it will be available for qualified operators to take visitors out during the week without putting a train together.
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There's a Model TT truck on ebay, item number 120375846143. This type of truck would make a great work railcar. The bed would have to be narrowed a bit. The listed truck is really pretty but imagine it in flat/faded black paint, this is what a two foot gauge work T would look like. Of course with all projects it would take $$ and many hours of volunteer time to bring to fruition.
BTW - Ed, I tried to post the ebay link but it didn't work.
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http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ru=http%3A%2F%2Fshop.ebay.com%3A80%2F%3F_from%3DR40%26_trksid%3Dm38%26_nkw%3D120375846143%26_sacat%3DSee-All-Categories%26_fvi%3D1&item=120375846143&viewitem= (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ru=http%3A%2F%2Fshop.ebay.com%3A80%2F%3F_from%3DR40%26_trksid%3Dm38%26_nkw%3D120375846143%26_sacat%3DSee-All-Categories%26_fvi%3D1&item=120375846143&viewitem=)
Wow. I would hate to do anything to that truck. Very nice looking. It would be a shame to convert that to rail use. But if it sold for the starting price, it would be easier.
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Leon Weeks is fabricating the pedistals. I am not sure if the 3 part journal boxes have arrived from the foundry. The ball bearing are in house. As is the cast brake shoes. The brake shoe keys have also been forged.
dwight
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Mike,
You are correct. That truck is a real beauty. It would be a shame to modify it for rail use but if it was modified it would be a sweet ride on the rails.
Duncan
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Thanks for posting the link Mike. Yep that truck is too nice to take apart but that's the style truck that I think would make a good work T. As Bernie said, it would look like it's been on the railroad for years.
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Hey, I know where there is a TT we can modify.... ;DJust kidding.
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Now that work has resumed on #9, who is working on what on the railcar?
Bernie
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Leon has taken both wheelsets to his home. The last I heard, we are still waiting for the journal boxes to arrive from the foundry. And the drive shaft has to be machined from bar stock.
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Dwight pretty well covered it. Remaining work is to machine the bearing housing castings to receive the roller bearings, machine the pedestals which Leon has fabricated (very nicely, by the way), machine a new drive shaft, and fabricate a torque tube extension. Oh- and rivet together a nice pilot (if you talk to Leon- it is NOT a pilot- it is a cow catcher!).
Work in the shop lately has focused on finishing up some parts for No 9's throttle and dry pipe, as Gordon had discussed.
see ya
Jason
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From what we've seen so far on the line, the pilot would probably end up as more of 'turkey scooper upper' . I haven't seen any cows of the bovine variety. There was one moose that ambled through but I'm not sure of the gender (Don't start!), and the occasional porcupine.
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I've seen a 2 or 3 deer in my time on the line.
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The 12 Journal Box castings have arrived from the foundry.
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What alloy steel was used for the railcar tires and pilot wheel tires on #11?
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ASTM A-551 Grade DHT
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geesh Jason, thats a mouth-full. How about, expensive grade, or knock-your-socks-off steel?
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No news on this project for a while. Guess it's back at Leon Weeks' for finish up and I hear leon don.t say much. So suppose it will just show up one day all done. When it does hope Steve H. is around to shoot some of his great pictures for all us folks from away to see.
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Two bearing blocks have been machined and bearings installed. The third bearing block was being machined last Friday (19th) One more block waiting machining.
All four frount and rear cover plates have been machined. The four frount plates still need a grease fitting added
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Whatever happend to the Model T railbus?
It was almost ready a year ago and then nothing new.
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Ira,
As far as i know the track car still at Leon's. I'm told it will soon venture forth to the Museum though i don't believe it's finished.
Dave
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As of last weekend, it needed some driveshaft work. Trying to get the right length or something.
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Whatever happend to the Model T railbus?
It was almost ready a year ago and then nothing new.
Your wish is our command:
(http://www.wwfry.org/aboutus/equipment/pics/railcar.jpg)
The railcar arrived today to stay. Yes it needs driveshaft work as well as exhaust, a floor, a gas tank, etc.
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Leon,
Super job and I look forward to a ride on it in October. It looks like it came out of the Phillips Shops. It is a perfect example of what the WW&F is all about. I really appreciate all the work that has gone into it. It has absolutely no shortcuts which would mar its historical appearance.
Bernie
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Congratulations to Leon Weeks for his energy, skill, and perseverance in creating this latest addition to the WW&F Ry Museum collection. This is really a wonderful example of the dedication of our members, and should be a big hit with both enthusiasts and the general public, not to mention the fun the members will have!
I was struck by how nicely proportioned the bus looks, and from the front it has a definite 'face' to it that the kids will love. Watch out Thomas!! :)
There are some details to be finished as James mentioned, such as the mechanism to turn it around. (The floor was removed to work on the drive train and turntable, so that it just has to be reinstalled. The pieces were brought in when James wasn't looking.)
As for the drive train issues, Jason and Leon understand the problem, and are working on a solution. Basically there is some misalignment in the drive train from the motor to the rear axle, and with a single Cardan, or universal joint, it creates vibration in the drive train. It hasn't been run on track yet, so it may be acceptable as is. If not, there are adjustments that can be made to reduce the problem.
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Leon:
Great work on another piece of history for the WW&F. I have a gas tank from my '23 roadster that needs a pin hole or two soldered up but otherwise is an original, under the seat type tank. The Museum is welcome to have it if that's what you need.
Hunt
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The WW&F now has one of the nicest narrow gauge railcars in the US. Thanks to a number of folks including Bernie and especially Leon. It's a valuable addition to the railroad that will be handy for a number of jobs. Yep, it looks like it just rolled out of the Phillips shops some 85 years ago. As Gordon said it has a nice "face"... you can't beat the classic style of the Model T. I'm looking forward to photo ops at AC with the railcar rolling South as the AA truck waits at the crossing. Henry Ford and Linwood Moody would both approve.
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Concerning photo ops, I was thinking more along the lines of a meet with no. 10 at Alna Center, with the railcar on the siding heading north as the train arrives southbound. If the AA truck happens to sneak into the frame, well, that's okay, too.
I've also been thinking about the railcar as a source of revenue, particularly during the week when there are only a few visitors and volunteers about. A qualified volunteer could take visitors out the line and back at some discounted rate.
Once again, thanks and congratulations to Leon and everyone else who had a hand in bringing this project along.
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Discounted rate? Heck I'd pay full fare plus !!!! How many railbuses are running today in the U.S.? As far as I know - none unless one of the galloping geese is back in service. Especially in 2 foot gauge!!!
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Actually most of the Galloping Geese are in service. One or two are missing, but the rest operate on a semi regular basis. Many make it to the Cumbres & Toltec and to the Durango & Silverton (especially to the D&S for Railfests).
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There are now 4 two foot gauge Model T railcars in Maine. The WW&F will have the only one in regular service. As James noted, the Galloping Geese run on the D&S, C&TS and at CRRM. The rides are very popular. The EBT has an old Nash railcar that goes out a couple of times each year and the rides usually sell out. The two original SR&RL Model T's have been to Sheepscot in years past and the cars went out full time after time. Model T railcar operations are prototypical on the Maine two-footers and railcar passenger trips (on weekends and during the week) would be a nice extra for museum visitors.
It is good to be associated with a museum that has accomplished so much ... it just gets better every year!
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hey stewart/all, your mention of photo ops with leon's railcar prompts a request for period clothing i can wear for riding the car, not railroad clothing which i have. any place around midcoast maine you can think of? dale
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Mother's Day weekend, four(4) Galloping Geese were operating at the Colorado Railroad Museum. I rode several of them.
Running were # 2,5,6,and 7.
#6 is a MOW Goose with very limited seating and much smaller than the rest of ther flock.
Ira
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Dale, I think there's a period clothing place in Augusta. It may be called Timely Fashions or something like that. Someone on the forum may know more.
Ira, The Galloping Goose rides sound great. Gotta do that some time. Was Goose #1 there? Number 1 is like the WW&F's Model T in that it is new, built to resemble the original. IIRC a number of RGS historians searched for an old Buick like the one that the original railcar was made from. They found one in a field in Montana and took it to their shop. The car was completely rebuilt and converted into a railcar. Goose 1 resembled a stake body truck and was used for track maintenance and to haul the US Mail. The new version is real nice, it even has the same door lettering as the original.
Our Model T came from parts that Leon gathered from a number of places. He told me that in one case he got a cowl and installed it on the car. He then found a better cowl and swapped them out. Now that's dedication! That's why our railcar is so beautiful.
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Does anyone here know whether the original SR&RL railcar had isinglass side curtains that could be rolled down in case of showers? Just wondering....
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Does anyone here know whether the original SR&RL railcar had isinglass side curtains that could be rolled down in case of showers? Just wondering....
Or, more precisely, "With Isinglas curtains that can roll right down in case there's a change in the weather."
There will now be a slight pause while we all sing various tunes from Oklahoma!
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"CHICKS AND DUCKS AND GEESE MAY SCURRY........"
Goose #1 was a no show. I believe someone one said it was undergoing some repairs.
Ira
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Thanks Ira... did you say DUCK!!?!
Wayne, Here's a bit of background on the SR&RL Model T's ... IIRC the original rail bus #3 was open and had side curtains. The bus was not in service that long. The later buses, numbers 4 and 5 were "real" buses that were enclosed. The WW&F's new Model T is based on SR&RL railcar 2 which was built for the track crew. The car originally had a wooden tool box that ran down the center which the crew used as a seat. The car was changed and the passenger seats were installed at Edaville in the early 1950's.
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We had a Ford Model 'T' railcar at the recent "Quirks & Curiosities' event on the Ffestiniog. This is the one built fairly recently for Adrian Shooter's garden railway in Oxfordshire.
Here it is at Porthmadog on 1 May:
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Hi John, Thanks for the post. That's a really nice looking T. It looks just like the car Supt. Vose car had on the SR&RL. His car survived the scrapping of the railroad and is in the MNG collection at Portland. The railcar has been to Sheepscot during the annual picnic. It's a real comfortable ride.
I like the name "Quirks & Curiosities", it sounds like something on the menu at Freds Kitchen.
Hey, maybe the WW&F should have a Quirks & Curiosities event, Stewart
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Hi John, Thanks for the post. That's a really nice looking T. It looks just like the car Supt. Vose car had on the SR&RL. His car survived the scrapping of the railroad and is in the MNG collection at Portland. The railcar has been to Sheepscot during the annual picnic. It's a real comfortable ride.
I like the name "Quirks & Curiosities", it sounds like something on the menu at Freds Kitchen.
Hey, maybe the WW&F should have a Quirks & Curiosities event, Stewart
Hi Stewart
I think Adrian's Model 'T' inspection car is based quite closely on the Vose design - he's been a Sandy River fan for years and has a dining car loosely based on the Rangeley as part of his garden railway rolling stock.
Also at Quirks and Curiosities was a rather more modern version of the breed, from the Statfold Barn Railway:
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I guess that proves that you can take a modern motor vehicle and make it a two-foot gauge hi-rail vehicle. Looks like it took a fair amount of ingenuity.
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Thanks for the info about the SR&RL's railcars, Stewart. I found a photo of no. 3 at Carrabasset that clearly shows rolled-up side curtains, as well as a shot of no. 2 similarly equipped. Worth considering since it's authentic?
I also saw a photo of the Vose car replica in Wales that showed it being turned around on a self-contained turntable. The turntable appeared to be hydraulic, apparently powered by the car's electrical system. There was also a head-on photo of that Land Rover with a big cowcatcher pilot!
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Thanks for the info about the SR&RL's railcars, Stewart. I found a photo of no. 3 at Carrabasset that clearly shows rolled-up side curtains, as well as a shot of no. 2 similarly equipped. Worth considering since it's authentic?
I also saw a photo of the Vose car replica in Wales that showed it being turned around on a self-contained turntable. The turntable appeared to be hydraulic, apparently powered by the car's electrical system. There was also a head-on photo of that Land Rover with a big cowcatcher pilot!
There are a lot more photographs of these railcars - and the other Quirks and Curiosities that attended the event - at http://www.roger-dimmick.fotopic.net/
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A photo taken this week to show a bit of the workmanship in more detail.
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on the Rail Bus question we have one here in California that lives at the Jamestown, 1897 State historic Park. sorry its standard gauge.
In reference to the Galloping Geese is Colorado; the folks at the Ridgway Railroad Museum have done a similar project. They built a replica of the long gone Goose #1 with assorted Model A parts i think.
And the Colorado RailRoad Museum has made all four of theirs operational.
I think the only Goose that is on static display is the one in Teluride.
And there is the Alexander Chapter, down in North Carloina that is building a rail truck out of a pile of rusty parts. Their project used to run on the narrow gauge East Tennessee and Western North Carolina Railroad.
this same group has just re-built two narrow gauge box cars. one of them is Lawndale Railway and the other is from the ET & WNC.
Ted Miles
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I thought it would be useful to shed some light on the RailBus's challenges on Saturday of the Picnic, since so many were watching and wondering what was keeping it from running.
It was run during the week before with no trouble, and on Saturday AM it started and was run out to the stub switch, where it died. It couldn't be restarted.
Ignition problems were suspected because we couldn't get a consistent spark at the plugs. However, all or our troubleshooting failed to identify the cause. Everything was brand new and seemed to work fine, just no spark when all together and cranked.
This 'T' engine has a distributor and coil added, which is a common (as I understand it) modification. The distributor was familiar to me as similar to the Bosch unit that was on my 1968 Volvo. It was driven from a vertical shaft which was turned by a helical gear set from the camshaft.
After sleeping on it Saturday night, Ric Sisson and I decided to tackle it one more time. After further timing and rearranging of spark plug wires, we got it to start and run well. However, when shut off, it wouldn't start. Then we realized that the position of the rotor in relationship to Top Dead Center of the #1 cylinder seemed to be moving around! Clearly this was a problem. We removed the distributor and were able to manually turn the drive shaft for the distributor when the motor was not turning, so it was now obvious the timing was moving around radically when the engine was stopped because the camshaft gear was turning on the shaft. The lack of spark was because the rotor wasn't aligned with the contact for the plug. We also thought the points in the distributor weren't very consistent, but now we're not sure how much of a problem that was.
This distributor modification required a helical gear to be screwed onto the end of the camshaft at the front of the engine. The instructions were ambiguous about how much to tighten it, and relied on the compression of the engine to hold the camshaft from turning. We think that it really couldn't be tightened sufficiently with that procedure.
The gear was indeed found to need tightening, and after that was done, the timing was reset and it ran and started consistently.
In conclusion it was not really anything that was obviously avoidable, and the real culprit hid itself well until the big day.
The RailCar is truly yet another amazing example of skill and vision and dedication from our members.
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Gawdon;
Many kudos to you and Ric. Had I been faced with your problems I would have whipped out my gold AAA card and waited for the 2 foot gauge wrecker.
Dave
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Just an FYI the distributor is a Bosch 007?(seems there are many more types), the 009s is famous for VW's and turns the opposite way. I'll check a site to see if they have a solid-state kit for it.
Rob
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Thanks, Dave. I think we all were disappointed about Saturday, and both Ric and I, being seasoned (or just old) engineers, just knew that it had to be something simple.
Robert,
I not sure about which distributor it was, but the basic design is the same as the ones I was used to. I think the differences were in the centrifugal advance curve. I do know that the rotation is counterclockwise. With the manual advance, the actual timing less critical than the usual application. The conversion kit was a 'Texas T' and the instructions are online if you are interested.
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I also want to thank Rick and Gordon for putting much time and talent into getting the railcar running. The problem is in no way a reflection on Leon's work. He did an absolutely beautiful job on the car. The distributor conversion was done per the instructions (as Gordon stated) and Leon had the engine running a number of times at his place . It is possible that the distributor assembly vibrated loose when the car was run in the yard that morning. No, the car didn't operate for visitors on Saturday but I think things turned out well anyway. Saturday, coach 3 got most of the attention and Sunday the Model T was the star as it was photographed in a number of places around Sheepscot Yard. There was even a quick photo op at the South end of the mainline, next to the station. This shoot featured the car posed with the headlights on low beam. That was the only time the lights were turned on. The turntable demonstration was also a popular photo op.
The bottom line is that museum now has a very valuable railcar ... and a number of members who are darn good at working on it.
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Unfortunately we had to head back south before the final modifications were completed so we never saw it running. To just see it completed even if not running was worth the drive from CT. I saw Leon and thanked him for his effort to make the car a reality - but he said "But it's not running!" I said "...yet!" as I knew the fine talents around the WW&F would work out the problems. So now I thank Gawdon and Rick and any of the others who helped to get the bugs out.
Any set schedule when it will be operating?
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A couple from Florida stopped at the railroad yesterday. They wanted to see the railcar and get photos of it for their son who heard that the car was at Sheepscot. The son works in NY City and couldn't make it to the picnic. Looks like the news of the Model T has traveled.
As to operating the car - There is a minor problem with an oil leak that must be fixed before the car can go out of the yard. Once the leak is fixed the car will be in revenue service. There is no slot in the current Timetable to run the car unless it takes the place of a steam train but there is room to dispatch the car as an extra, running to AC between the carded trains. When a schedule is set the info will be on the web site and in the Newsletter. For visiting members, the Fall work weekend will be a good time to ride and photograph the car.
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This just in ...
Jason and Roger repaired the oil leak this afternoon. Jason advised that he will test the railcar this weekend. The car will be run up the mainline with stops at various places to check the repair. If everything is OK the car will be run to AC and possibly to EOT with turning being done at the last crossing.
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Today was very hot, above 90. Despite the heat, the railcar ran well, making a number of trips to Rosewood crossing. The first trip was the first revenue run the car has made. It happened like this: Only 2 passengers, (a fellow and his young daughter) showed up for the 10:00 o'clock trip. There was a brief discussion between the steam trains crew and the railcar crew as to who would take them. We asked the man if he wanted to ride in the railcar and he said his daughter would love to. It was decided that the Model T would take the passengers out on the steam trains time slot and run as far as Rosewood crossing, north of milepost 7. The car was facing north so the Model T worked it's way through the yard switches and out on the mainline. Once past Jane's Way crossing we went into high gear. We slowed to a near stop for each crossing but made good time going north. During the trip the passengers were told that they were the first paying riders on the railcar which they were pleased to hear. The layover at RC was only long enough to jack and turn the car but the visitor recorded the operation to show the rest of his family. He told us "this is great I've never seen anything like it". We returned to Sheepscot with a very happy father and daughter. Another trip was run as an extra to take Dwight and his weed cutting equipment up past AC. Some of the regular volunteers rode along to get acquainted with the car. In the afternoon, a man show up just to get a ride on the Model T. He had come to the picnic and was disappointed at not getting a ride. He told us "I figured you guys would have the bugs worked out by now" His ticket was the first sold especially for the railcar.
Joe and Gordon did their usual expert job running the steam train and a number of meets were held at AC with the northbound railcar taking the siding as the superior train worked through going south. We didn't have large crowds but today was a great day for the WW&F.
As stated in a previous post, regular trips are not scheduled yet because there is no place in the Timetable for the railcar. It will most likely run as an extra when it is needed or requested, operating under the authority of the dispatcher.
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Glad to hear the good news on the railcar. Just hearing it running was a treat but the "yard ride" made our detour well worth it. Hope to take a longer ride next in September. Congratulations to all that made it possible!
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All, I've uploaded a brand new video clip featuring the new Model T Railcar, to the RailwayVideo.org site: http://railwayvideo.org/modeltrailcar.html
Enjoy!
Stephen
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To clarify one item in James' report. The railcar does not have magnetos, they were removed because the car has electric start. The part in question was the ignition coil which was getting hot because it was mounted directly on top of the engine block. Saturday morning Jason made an extension bracket to move the coil away from the block and more towards the radiator. The new bracket was installed and the railcar seems to run smoother with the coil in it's new location. There is other news on the railcar - see the railcar thread.
Other work - Today, Dave Crow cut more weeds north of Sheepscot Mills crossing. At this point the entire line is just about done except for Cockeye Curve.
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Bill, It was good to see you and the Mrs at Sheepscot today... hope you enjoyed your trip on the railcar.
Today was an interesting day because the first Combo Tickets were sold. Combo Tickets are a special ticket that the Board designed to give visitors more ride options. For an additional $4 passengers can ride a regular train and railcar trip. (Example: Regular fare is $6 for adults so a Combo ticket is $10). Sale of the new tickets started today and the afternoon saw 6 visitors take both trips. Another first was transporting a handicapped person on the railcar. The visitor came to ride the Model T and we didn't want to disappoint him. We took the car to the south end of the mainline track to carefully board the guest. When everyone was set we ran to Rosewood crossing to turn the car. We had the fellow stay in his center seat and turned the car just as easily as any other trip. The guest was very happy to get the "extra" ride.
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Maybe next Spring we could host a gathering of the "T's" at Sheepscot and invite the the antique cars folks to also attend. It would be great to see all four of Maine railcars operating. Its possible that it could be an annual event. Old cars and trains seem to go together.
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Thank you so much!
I have ridden the Edaville car at Edaville and at Alna; now my wife and I will be able to ride another one that actually belongs to the WW&F Ry Museum!
With skilled volunteers like this it is really believable that some day there will be a WW&F #11 which now only exists as a pair of driving wheels.
Ted Miles
WW&F Member
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To clarify one item in James' report. The railcar does not have magnetos, they were removed because the car has electric start.
Stewart, if the magnets were removed, how is the oil distributed through the engine? Model T's don't have oil pumps and they depended on the oil being slung around by the magnets on the flywheel throwing the oil around in the crank pan. Were vanes added to the flywheel where the magnets were formerly located? And I'm not sure why you would remove the magneto because of "electric start." The 1920 Touring that I used to have had magneto ingnition and electric start. You would start the car on the battery then switch to the magneto once the engine was running.
Keith
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Yes, coil not magneto. Not an engine guy so I don't know much about them.
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Keith, Leon told me that the magnets were removed when the engine was rebuilt. The block has a number of upgrades like aluminum pistons, balanced crank and oil fins. Yes, the T has no oil pump so the fins splash/distribute the oil. There is a sight glass on top of the transmission housing that indicates the oil level. The engine was rebuilt by a professional who restores Model A engines, he rebuilt our T engine because it was a special project for the railroad.
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After reading this post and doing some searching, model T engines are really interesting about how they were so crudely built, but worked. The oil picked up by the flywheel moves to an internal oil tube and flows down hill to the front of the engine, where it flows back to the sump under the flywheel. On the trip back to the sump there are 4 "mini" sumps that hold some oil and the lower part of the connecting rods fling it all over the valve train and lower pistons. There are mods that can be done to the oil pan to retain more oil, and a mod that increases the size of the oil tube and moves it outside the engine. I love this, looking up old tech and to see how they solved problems and engineered solutions.
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YEP, The Model T boys can show you many Ford blocks where the front bearing was loosened by lack of oil because the old farmer kept his oil level in the "LOW" petcock on the side of the pan instead of the "High" one. When the T climbed a steep hill, the front journal was starving for oil. Of course, Old Henry had a method. Fuel was gravity flow and many times the T had to be backed up a hill in reverse. No problem for oil flow now. Then some Ford Engineers cured that problem on the last T edition by putting the gas tank in a higher position, but that only made for more bearing repairs built into your new car. At least folks weren't laughing at those T's backing up hills anymore. This won't be a Rail Bus problem, I hope. (How steep is that mountain?)
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Sue and I certainly enjoyed our long-awaited ride on the railcar. I was talking with Steve Z after the ride and he thought we finally got the ride to the end of the line on our 3rd try. Actually it was my 5th try!
Once again, thanks to Leon and all who helped him for making this work of art possible.
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Hi Bill, I'm glad you finally got the full ride. The length of the trip is up to each operator to decide if they want to back down to the red flag. My decision is based on the weather, if it's over 80 then I won't back the car that far. When we first began testing the car it boiled over running backwards. With cooler days I have run to the red flag while listening to the engine for water boiling in the radiator. There are parts ordered (Motor Meter gauge) that will go on the radiator cap to show the operating range of the cooling system. The gauge will take the guess work out of the decision to give riders a full trip.
Hope to see you on the work weekend.
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Here she is, zipping along with some very happy passengers...
http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=341193&nseq=0
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What's the latest regarding the ignition problems with the railcar? Gordon Cook worked on it during work weekend and I believe discovered a problem with the distributor and made a modification. He had the railcar running by the end of the weekend. Jut wondering what has transpired since. Maybe the info is already somewhere on the forum but I couldn't find it.
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The distributor was removed last weekend and readied to be sent out. It turned out to be one of 25 that was manufactured incorrectly. There was also an issue with the main pulley from the crankshaft. The pulley was removed and parts were to be ordered. I think now we just wait for delivery.
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Just wondering what was manufactured incorrectly.
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As I've said on other posts: You are foolin' with Ol' Henry's original design. Throw all that distributor mess away. Join one of the Model T Ford Clubs and learn what is keeping Thousands of Henry's finest going without problem. We need an original timer and four singing coils. That Rail Car will run dependably and be the crowd pleaser Mr. Weeks intended. Railway Museums depend on member participation, Model T's depend on just the same thing.
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Paul,
Don't honestly know. I gues the timing kept advancing or something. Should be fixed shortly.
Glenn,
I don't remember the exact way it came about but I think the motor was bought rebuilt with the distributor drive installed. Just using what was there.
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A footnote on the ignition system ... The Model T distributor upgrade goes back to the WWI era when American Bosch offered a complete new assembly. Leon has a copy of the 1918 AB catalogue with the parts listed. A number of Model T owners have stopped by the museum and told us that they have the distributor upgrade and it works well. Of course people who show their Model T's do not change them from the as-built set up so there are still many with the original timer and buzz coils. The defective distributor on the railcar made it impossible to time properly. There was a problem in the drive stem gearing that caused the points to fire out of time. Gordon figured it out and it was confirmed by the manufacturer. As Mike noted, new parts are ordered and should come in soon.
As to getting parts - There will be no problem keeping the railcar running and keeping it a true Model T because there are at least 3 companies that sell new parts. You can get just about any part for a Model A or T whether auto or truck, in fact some parts are still made by Ford. Others are made under license from Ford. Maybe that's why Ford is doing so well these days.
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Looking through the most recent Railpace Magazine (November), there is a very nice shot of the railcar at the south end of track, facing north. The description was fairly accurate, accept the part where the photographer mentioned the railcar was "owned by WW&F member C. Stewart Rhine". Or am I somehow mistaken?
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It's nice to be noted in the railfan press, but a few mistakes got into the Railpace caption. The Museum's name was written out wrong. The top speed of the railcar was listed as 45mph and the ownership was wrong as well. The mistake probably came from mixed up info on two pieces of equipment when questions were asked about where the Model T and Model A came from. Mr. Connell was told that the Model A used to belong to me and he may have mistaken the Model A info for the Model T.
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Sometimes visitors ask how much fuel the Model T railcar uses and I don't have an answer. Well, I've done some figuring to come up with a mileage report.
The tank holds 10 gallons and uses about 7 gallons of it on Sat/Sun operation. The railcar can run up to 7 round trips each day but generally runs about 5 times. Each trip is around 5 miles (a bit less than the train since the car is turned at Rose Wood). If you figure the car runs 50 miles on a given weekend and uses 7 gallons, the car gets about 7 miles per gallon. The number doesn't sound all that good but when you consider that some of the operation is in low range within the Yard Limit with the engine at a higher rpm it's not as bad. Also, the car weighs 3,500 lbs without passengers and crew a lot more when full. The T engine was designed to haul an auto that weighed less than 3,500lbs so it works harder, especially when the car is full. I can say that the fuel consumtion has improved over last year when the tank ran dry in just one day.
So there you have it, she gets about 7mpg. Jason, James and Dwight ... your mileage may vary.
BTW, there's a railcar operators motto - Live Young, Drive Old!
Stewart
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Update 11/1/2022:
After a significant rebuild by new volunteer and Model T expert Paul Baresel, Railcar 4 is nearly ready for service once again. Today, builder Leon Weeks (left), maintainer Brendan Barry (center), and rebuilder Paul Baresel (right) posed for a photo.
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Great ! Happy to see it again running on the main. Good job of work guys.