W.W.&F. Discussion Forum
WW&F Railway Museum Discussion => Work and Events => Topic started by: Mike Fox on December 10, 2008, 01:18:05 PM
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As has been discussed in other threads, the longer the line gets, the more use we would have for a mechanical tamper. Nothing too big, just something that doesn't wear you out so much. I thought we had a good bite on one, but at this time the owner wants to hang on to it. So unfortunately, we are back to square one. It would have been great to have something to put Jason's idea onto. Anybody have anymore leads on any? Send me a PM if you'd rather keep things quiet. That's the way I would prefer until something is in stone anyhow.
Mike
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A tamper deal "set in stone". I get it! :D
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OK. No replies for a tamper, how about tamper parts? Hydraulic cylinders, drive motors and the like? Something that could be built on a frame.
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Mike, I did look per my PM but it was scrapped about 5 months ago. Still sniffing though..........
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Well, actually we got a good start on something. It will be quite something if it comes together and function as planned.
This is the frame. The length will be to accomodate a sizeable compressor.
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2006-11/1225939/Tamper%20frame.jpg)
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2006-11/1225939/Big%20Joe.jpg)
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Here are a few more pics of "Big Joe" coming together in the shop.
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-8/342468/LW2weldingsideplatesm.jpg)
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-8/342468/MFcuttingtorchdiagsm.jpg)
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-8/342468/JasonLeonweldingsm.jpg)
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-8/342468/Mikeroundsparkssm.jpg)
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-8/342468/widetampercarrearsm.jpg)
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Anyone notice the Joe Fox cameo appearance in that last shot? We had to pay big money for that!
Joe will be firing 10 for us this weekend for Easter Express trains, after helping with No 10 prep for the last couple weeks (very dirty work...)
see ya
Jason
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Here's Joe in the machine shop, at work on No 10...
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-8/342468/Joepitdriverssm.jpg)
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video clip of the "Big Joe" tamper being raised and lowered during some testing...and still under construction: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VhvVgLQebE4
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Hey Steve,
Thanks for the link. Looks like the tamper is coming along nicely. I thought Jason was going to put four tampers together, and then we would just have to move them from one side to the other.
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Looks great so far. How do you guys plan to angle the vibrators to squeeze the tie? Also is the plan to have rail clamps and jacks to be able to handle cross-level?
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I believe that the tampers move in and out simultaneously. The shaft sticking out the front drives the two racks that you can see in the video, to slide the two sets of tampers towards or away from each other.
So, you set the tampers in close together, lower them, shake, lift them up, move them out a little, etc.
Can't wait until it all four tampers are going! It should give a new meaning to 'Whole lotta shakin' goin' on" !!
:o (http://tbn2.google.com/images?q=tbn:niw-3sou0_u4JM:http://i399.photobucket.com/albums/pp80/Mrs_Tea/ElvisPresley.jpg)
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Does this mean we tamping crew members are out of a job? :'(
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John K, the basic concept behing the whole tamper is keep it as simple as possible. If it doesn't work out, we can always try again. You saw in the video the up and down motion of the machine. There will also be something to draw the heads together and squeeze them together if the trial runs work as planned. Eventually, we hope to make it self propelled, controlled by hydraulics, with the tampers on air of course. As for the jacking, the tamper will clear a short jack placed under the rail for leveling or lifting the joint. Could be a one or a two man operation versus the current four or so for a track crew.
But never fear, we will still need brute strength to line the rails. Always something out of line there. Either us or someplace up the line.
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Does this mean we tamping crew members are out of a job? :'(
I-I-I-I d-d-d-d-don't th-th-th-th-think w-w-w-we c-c-c-can ever b-b-b-b-be r-r-r-r-r-rep-p-p-p-placed, B-B-B-B-Bill...
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Does this mean we tamping crew members are out of a job? :'(
I-I-I-I d-d-d-d-don't th-th-th-th-think w-w-w-we c-c-c-can ever b-b-b-b-be r-r-r-r-r-rep-p-p-p-placed, B-B-B-B-Bill...
ROTFHMGLMAO! :D :D :D
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Gawdon,
As Larry the Cable Guy would say, "now that's funny right thar". LMAO ;D
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With the successful initial weekend for "Big Joe", I have thought up some upgrades to it to make it version 1.2. I will discuss these with Jason, as I can see Big Joe only getting better. And for the decal, I have a new version of the old one in mind. Big Joe holding up the BIG JOE sign that is now on wheels and tracks. I'll get one of the sign places to make it up. Just need to draw it out for them.
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Lindsay had some Air leaks fixed, and I also added a pulley after Ed fabricated me a part. Ready for an alternator to be added on now.
Seat for Big Joe.....someplace in the shop is a spare seat that came from # 51 afer 51 got it's "new" seat. A base for the old 51 seat needs to be made before it can be used.
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Last I saw 51's old seat was in bay 1. This was several years ago.
I replaced the old seat with a PCC operators seat donated by Seashore Trolley Museum. It slipped right into the same mounting.
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Hans and my discussion was based on a suggestion Hans made regarding further occasional use of the air from Lindsey. If Hans is successful in his quest I would end up being the "butt" of a whole 'nother round of barbs and jokes - BUT I would be comfortable. That Hans is always looking out for my well-being.
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If I can get my hands on a seat that my company replaced and plans on throwing out, you may be in luck. They just did one a month or so ago, I'll look to see if it still lingers in the shop.....
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Cool beans! Thanks, Mike!
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Gee, when I am there in October, I can spell Dave.
I remember the "bucket" seat from the first trials of Big Joe.
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To paraphrase Sally Field: He likes me, he really likes me!
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Hey Mike! Can you rig an ejection feature to it? :-)
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Yup. Just have to remove a bolt or two and give it a sudden supply of air. Should be a nice ride up. Coming back down may leave a little something to remember the trip by.
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I'm not feeling the love from Wayne.
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Who, me? I am only concerned for your safety and well-being, Dave. We need every top-notch volunteer and operator we have. ::)
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Gee, when I am there in October, I can spell Dave.
I can spell Dave whether I'm at the railroad or not: D-A-V-E ;D ;D
(Sorry, couldn't resist)
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I have seen the new seat ... looks like Big Joe is gonna have a Big Mack attack :o
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Well, here is a picture of the new (to us) seat.
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2006-11/1225939/Seat1.jpg)
Shortly after telling Dave that he is getting a new seat, he proudly posed for this picture.
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2006-11/1225939/Seat.jpg)
Lets just hope that Big Joe turns out to be as tough as Dave appears in the above photo.
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Good work Mike! I'll be by in two weeks for a test fitting. Does my new seat recline? Is it heated for those cold Maine October mornings?
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Mike, great job on getting the seat. We should consider cup holders for Dave's new throne. Maybe we should get two, one for each hand as we don't know if he drinks with his left or right hand.
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Hans;
I don't know what I'd do without you. I can drink with either hand if necessary. I can't wait to try it out.
Dave
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Right now it is guarding the front seat to Leons car. Didn't want to get it on and it wind up being in the way.
By the way, if you want a heated seat, eat a good dose of Freds beans at the Skinny Dipper Cafe. Only the Bare essentials will heat that seat.
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Gents,
Could someone post a few more pictures of "Big Joe" showing the drives view and the mechanics/controls. I have been watching the discussions regarding this build for some time and would really like to put soemthing together for our short line (just 1 mile) of 3'6' gauge here in New Zealand. Like all groups we are always challenged by what can be done with a small group of (unfortunately) aging members, so a bit of automation for this back braking task would be great.
Thanks
Pete
Auckland, NZ
http://www.motat.org.nz/collections/rail.htm
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Hi Pete,
The core of the idea was to use handheld pneumatic 'jitterbug' tampers by mounting them on a machine that is capable of controlling their movement to mimic what is done by hand. Two jitterbugs face each other tamping both sides of a tie simultaneously and with perfectly symmetrical motion.
The two basic motions to be recreated are 1. up and down and 2. "squeeze."
To obtain up and down we started with a unit called a stacker- essentially a hand-pushed forklift used for standard pallets. Our stacker was bought off eBay and was originally made by a company called "Big Joe."
The squeeze function was done by mounting each jitterbug on a substantially built pivot- about the center of the height of the jitterbug- and mounting a mechanism at the top of the jitterbug allowing the handles to be spread from one another- causing the toes of the bugs to squeeze towards each other.
That's the basic need. Perhaps someone has some photos they can post of how we accomplished that. I'll write mroe later but gotta run for now...
Jason
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(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-8/342468/bigjoe2sm.jpg)
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Thanks for the photo Stephen.
You can see the jitterbugs mounted to pivots in the photo. 4 tampers are used on our rig- two per side. Because the tie should be tamped both inside and outside the rail- we put each set of two on a carriage which rides along a crosswise rail system- allowing the pairs of tamping heads to be lined up inside or outside the rail, as desired. The two carraiges have a rack and pinion arrangement so moving one also moves the other- keeping them symmetrical. If we had a 'do-over,' I'd personnaly choose to use 8 tampers- requiring twice the compressor, but eliminating the cross-slide requirement and allowing for a much more rigid arrangment.
The squeeze function went through a few iterations but ended up with a vertically arranged air cylinder pulling down on a pair of scissor arms connected directly to the jitterbug handles. Look at the photo closely: you'll see the nearer set in the down position and the farther set in the up position. There's simply a push button sending air to these cylinders when pushed; push the button just as the tamper toes touch the stone. The constant air pressure on the squeeze will bring them in as they work down.
If you have further specific questions- please ask!
Jason
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Awww, what a nice looking couple!!! Make it self-propelled and you will have a true monster on your hands!!!
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I think self-propelling is nearing the top of the list.
The air compressor is a recent donation to the museum. It's a Lindsay compressor. Once the air leaks in the system get taken care of it should have plenty of capacity to keep the tampers going. Because the stacker is battery powered, an alternator was put in to keep the battery charged up.
The red cylinder in the picture is a new gas tank for the compressor, the old one was too rotten to use.
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In my experience observing and operating tampers, it's better to allow the heads to drop and vibrate their way to the bottom of the tie before initiating the squeeze function. Otherwise, the squeeze is mashing the ballast against the relatively unyielding surface of the tie. Two insertions per tie seems to be the optimum to compact ballast beneath the rails.
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Awww, what a nice looking couple!!! Make it self-propelled and you will have a true monster on your hands!!!
I think I hear Hollywood calling for Joe n' Lindsay to star in another MAD MAX movie....
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Pete;
Note well that Big Joe will not work without a comfortable seat for the operator. It will work really well when the operator has a cup holder and some sort of sunshade. It is my understanding that the WW&F Skunkwerks (a/k/a Mike Fox) is working on these issues as I type. Best of luck to you.
Dave
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How about a big ol' red and white striped umbrella, Dave? Would that do the trick?
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Don't forget to add a gun rack for those pesky "Moose And Squirrel" encounters!
Oh,... and a couple empty BUDWEISER cans crumpled under the dash! ;)
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Wayne, around here we don't use umbrellas. Dave will get the traditional Blue Tarp treatment.
As for the squeeze method, with this particular compressor, it is necessary to start squeezing as soon as possible. The pressure we are currently working at does not move the heads once they are in the ballast. Trying to immitate the jitterbug hand method is hard to do. This is the best way I have found to do it.
And if there was ever a do over, I'd like to start with a standard gauge and hack away until it fits. We can do it. I saw one the other day that would make a nice project for us.
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Wayne;
Mike is right - Blue Tarp is $.07 per. Black is $.10. You're From Awayness is showing....
Dave
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On one of the web sites this last week, I saw a listing for a 2' surgar cane railroad in Australia selling out. In addition to several diesel locos, there was a 2' gauge Tamper tamper.
Now if we all(Maine 2' railroads) went together, we might be able to get it and share with all of us.
Thoughs??
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Gents,
Thanks for the comments on the workings of Joe. I have access to half a fork lift and four tampers, so it looks like it is time for some design work.
Cheers
Pete
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Pete, come and visit. Check it out in person. Perhaps you can add something we may have overlooked.
Ira, is it for sale yet. and what would shipping be. UPS would love us.
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Yes, it is for sale.
Easiest way is put it in a container and ship to Portland, ME.
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Big Joe learned to sing. Ask Fred about it.
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Well if he would have had the hiccups when he walked in, he wouldn't have when he walked out.
For "my comfort". I like that. The wind was blowing and it was rather chilly this morning. I decided tinkering inside ws a better option. And it gave us a chance to play in the yard.
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It also made us warm up #52 for switching. Good thing since we had two groups of visitors show up who wanted train rides. First (non event) visitors this year.
Stewart
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* Big Joe: Mike ... attached a horn for movements.
Yay! I was nervous backing up Big Joe last fall with limited visibility and no horn/bell to warn folks who might be nearby. Thanks Mike.
- Bill
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What about a backup camera on Big Joe?
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Mike;
Have you re-routed the exhaust on the hydraulic motor? That should be priority #1 - operator health.
Dave
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Yes Dave. That was Job #1 about 3 weeks ago. HWMNBM and myself nearly succumbed to the fumes last fall during the first day of trials with it. My eyes still burn when I think about it. The horn is a trolley type that was donated a while ago.
Also with Job #1 came project #2. I rewired the start switch so now to start the hydraulic motor is simple. Switch on and push one button to start.
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Thanks Mike. I'm embarrassed that I questioned you. Now, about the comfort of the operator...
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You want more than ONE cup holder?
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I like to take care of my crew so I like them to have cool liquids and a place to put them so they won't fall off.
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Dave,
How about mounting a small warming oven to keep coffee, muffins and donuts warm for those early starts on the work weekends? Wouldn't want the tamper crew to be cold or hungry.
Duncan
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I believe Mike mounted a metal box to the re-routed exhaust for that purpose. Adds flavor too.
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Dave, no seat as of yet. James wants to use it this weekend so the recliner option may be out. Coffee cup holder works good as long as that person doesn't leave.
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And while we are on the subject of "Big Joe", I would suggest that we encourage everyone in the tamper crew to wear double hearing protection - that is foam ear plugs and good quality muffs. (I believe the foam plugs are in a box behind the driver's seat, but there were no ear muffs.) Over the winter I have inquired about current practice at my former place of employment - double hearing protection is required in any area where the sound level is as intense as it is near "Big Joe".
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Any hearing protection is better than no hearing protection when around Big Joe. I forget the threshold in decibles when needing to use double hearing protection, but this is probably close. Means I just need to put a louder horn on. ;)
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Six hearing protection head phones and 50 pairs of ear plugs are on their way to the General Storekeeper (James Patton).
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$2/hr for head phone rental and $3/day for ear plug rental ;D
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Do you get a discount if you rent a used set of ear plugs?
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No, but you do get a free ear infection. ::)
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The CEO of Row-Mow Mfg. (and Mechanique Extraordinaire) modestly did not mention the most important improvement to date on Big Joe: A plush, genuine faux leather, double wide seat mounted at an appropriately lofty height for the Supreme High Commander to direct Big Joe in comfort and safety. There's even room within for a beverage cooler !
Rumor has it that a full width cab, stereo, and A/C are next.
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As Stewart stated in today's work thread, I re-installed the hydraulic drive motor today. It still weeps oil around the shaft, because I wasn't able to get a new seal. I have ordered a new motor and will be here Wednesday. I do not plan on installing it until after work weekend unless the tamper is unused for a half hour or so Saturday morning.
The hydraulic brake idea hit me this morning on the ride down. I don't know why we didn't think of it before. Simple. But not very effective when the hydraulic unit is not running.
So Dave, here is your task training. I took photos for visual aid.
Brake off. Handle is forward.
(http://i1132.photobucket.com/albums/m573/miketrainnut/WWandF%20Ry/2013-04-20142823_zps4309758d.jpg)
Brake on, handle pulls toward the operator.
(http://i1132.photobucket.com/albums/m573/miketrainnut/WWandF%20Ry/2013-04-20142830_zpsa04a6605.jpg)
Of note, if the brake is on, the drive motor will not move. I would suggest not using the brake unless needed, and not to rely on it while the machine is not in use.
Also this brake should not be used to stop the machine like a regular brake would be. Doing so could do damage to the drive components.
I am designing some Fairmont style wood block brakes for a better fix than my current brake set up.
Also, the top rack was re-installed. I am planning a revamp on this also. Ut still brushes against the other side harder than I wouls like to see. A little tweeking will take care of this at some point.
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Mike,
I understand how to use the brake but it's not clear when I can use it. Don't use it unless I need to, don't use it when I'm not using it and don't use it like a regular brake. Hmmmm.
Dave
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Treat it like a parking brake, not a service break. It should never function to slow or stop you, just hold you still.
See ya
Jason
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It's a good thing Mike isn't writing the operator's manual for Big Joe... Thanks for clearing that up Jason.
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Sorry, kind of did read like an instruction manual.
Oh wait, it was....
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You can't please some people, Mike...
- Bill
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I am learning that. Put a big boy seat on, he wants a spot for a cooler. Put on a brake, he wants to know how to use it.
Just kidding Dave.
New drive motor showed up here today. Very fast shipping from Florida. I will have it Saturday incase something goes wrong, but will not stop production to put it on.
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If You Give A Mouse A Cookie was one of my favorites to read to my daughter when she was young. Some of it must have rubbed off...
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Mike, I can guarantee that the tamper won't be used prior to 7 AM on Saturday morning!
Friday, I'm running the tamping crew. I'm going to plan for a 9 AM departure from Sheepscot, although this may change based on other railroad needs. We'll be working on "Davis Grade", which is just north of Brook Crossing.
Saturday, I'd like to leave Sheepscot before 8, so that we can clear the mainline for an 11 AM passenger trip.
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Hi James,
Regarding Davis grade, a couple of questions:
-- Do any ties need replacement on that stretch? I seem to recall you've already done tie replacement on that section.
-- Assuming we have the turnout and some folks are willing, is there any ditching work that should be done through there?
- Bill
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I'm planning on being there Friday morning.
SH
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Bringing Big Joe's topic back toward the top.
Winter projects on this involve hose replacement, relocation of a fuel tank and combining fuel tanks, and the addition of hand and foot brakes. Possible other projects are more uses of the hydraulics, like trying to remove the starter pump for the raise/lower to convert that to hydraulic and maybe redoing the squeeze function.
Other ideas and suggestions are welcome, as I have already received some from A and B.
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Mike I have some brake parts laying around already just need a little fab work for caliper brackets.
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I regret to announce the pending divorce for Big Joe and Lindsay. Lindsay was just not keeping up with Big Joe, and may have actually kept him from reaching his full potential.
Big Joe will now become Big Joe Airman. That is because we have completed the purchase of a 185 CFM Airman Screw Compressor. Brendan and I met about halfway between the seller and my location, where I took it for an overnight stay at the World HQ for ROWMOW1 MFG.
This compressor will keep the tamping heads of Big Joe rattling..
And this machine is a diesel..
(http://i1132.photobucket.com/albums/m573/miketrainnut/0302181530b_zpshinmotx8.jpg)
(http://i1132.photobucket.com/albums/m573/miketrainnut/0302181530a_zpsguceshkq.jpg)
(http://i1132.photobucket.com/albums/m573/miketrainnut/0302181530_zps26rs8yee.jpg)
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There’s one word for this:
AWESOME!!!!
Now to find room for a hydraulic pump...
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Following the divorce, will Lindsay leave town, or will she hang around and be put to other uses?
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Ah, what a sweet looking piece of equipment. It will be a nice addition to Big Joe.
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Wayne,
I think we have enough stuff hanging around. I am not sure what use we would have for the Lindsay. I myself would like to see it head down the road, to someone that needs it as a unit or perhaps parts. But that should be a board decision, and we may have to add that to the agenda..
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So Big Joe is dumping Lindsay for a younger higher-output model?
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Exactly
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Divorce is final... Name was officially changed today to Big Joe Airman..
(http://i1132.photobucket.com/albums/m573/miketrainnut/0303181043_zps6n53ysol.jpg)
(http://i1132.photobucket.com/albums/m573/miketrainnut/0303181437_zpsqrp2icui.jpg)
(http://i1132.photobucket.com/albums/m573/miketrainnut/0303181437a_zps5fm1rbgj.jpg)
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Mike,
Do you have a plan for returning the toolbox to Big Joe?
Dave
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No. There is some storage in the new compressor. A lot of trash was in the old box. If we decide a box is needed, commercial ones are available that would work excellent for us. And be more finger friendly than the old lid..
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Looks like its time for some kitty litter under big joe - obviously joe is still not quite housebroken yet.
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It was that stinky diesel... Needed that spot because of the overhead crane so had to move it...
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52 is not housebroken??? :o
Jeff S.
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52 is not housebroken??? :o
Jeff S.
This is a good time to come up with a new product: The diesel diaper. For those units that are not quite housebroken yet. Fits the model T too.
:P
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Divorce is final... Name was officially changed today to Big Joe Airman..
Big Joe has enlisted in the Air Force?
Jeff S.
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That's Airman First Class (A1C) Big Joe Tampier. Of course the paint job will have to change to AF Blue and Silver. I'll even donate a set of wings for the front!
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As a former fly boy, I'll chip in for the proper colors...... I'll even come up with some kind of tail feathers for the pmpennage.
Bill
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Just remembered, I can also donate some landing gear downlock pins with the "remove before flight" tags still on and a Sidewinder arming key and safety pin. Probably should have a proper ejection seat, harness, and helmet installed while we're at it. I'll start working on it ...........
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A proper ejection seat is something that Big Joe is missing. Sometime's it's difficult to get down off that lofty height.
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A proper ejection seat is something that Big Joe is missing. Sometime's it's difficult to get down off that lofty height.
We could go with a parachute. Although when He Who Likes To Volunteer Me is operating Big Joe, I like the idea of an ejection seat.
Which reminds me: Where will the cup holder for HWLTVM go?
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It's nice that HWMNBN looks out for HWLTVH. I'd settle for the seat being bolted down. And a sun shade...
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It's not a Presidential Palanquin.
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We'd have to take off the wheels and replace them with two poles (pun not intended) for it to be one of those. The whining would be unbearable.
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We'd have to take off the wheels and replace them with two poles (pun not intended) for it to be one of those. The whining would be unbearable.
Now THAT would be a picture!