W.W.&F. Discussion Forum
WW&F Railway Museum Discussion => Museum Discussion => Topic started by: Matthew Gustafson on December 02, 2008, 05:42:16 PM
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After I just read about you guys completly build your caboose from scratch I though it would be cool to rebuild some more frieght cars like another boxcar or tank car would be nice to have a cool photo train on the WW&F! :o :) ;) :D ;D
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If we have enough money to do it! ::) 8)
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We built a flat car a couple of years ago. There are plans for a car for the B&SR SOCONY tank we purchased from MNGRR. Ultimate plans are for this tank to be returned to service as either part of fire supression or an alternate water source for the Steam Engine.
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We built a flat car a couple of years ago. There are plans for a car for the B&SR SOCONY tank we purchased from MNGRR. Ultimate plans are for this tank to be returned to service as either part of fire supression or an alternate water source for the Steam Engine.
Wait did you purchase the plans to build the tankcar or the actual tankcar itself? ??? ??? ???
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Matthew, The WW&F purchased just the tank. The tank needs a new bottom. Than museum needs to build the flat car to mount the tank.
dwight winkley
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Oh okay! I was thinking about they bought the 2 foot tankcar that the had at MNGM! :o :o :o :o :D ;D ;D ;D
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Matthew,
There were actually 2 tank cars from the B&SR. The WW&F bought the tank that wasn't already mounted on a flatcar. The tank car that the WW&F didn't purchase is still at the MNG museum.
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All it takes is money and manpower. Without the storage capability we'd rather not build anything too complicated. And then there's parking, bathrooms....
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Another pecie of rolling stock I want to see at the WW&F is some flagers! It would help with all of the snow on the tracks! :o ::) :D
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Matthew,
It would be nice to build more cars.
but I think that finishing the ones we have would be good also. The W&Q #3 only has hand brakes on one truck and I am sure it had air brakes.
I don't think either of the flat cars have brakes. As the track gets ever closer to the Top Of The Mountain, it would be good to have brakes on something besides the locomotive.
As mentioned above the B&SR tank needs a car under it. I wonder if the Maine Narrow gauge have any spare B&SR freight car trucks?
Ted Miles
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I wonder if the Maine Narrow gauge have any spare B&SR freight car trucks?
The MNG has several spare trucks. Some even have brake rigging and brakes atached. but i don't know if the MNG will be willing to part with any of them.
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Matthew,
It would be nice to build more cars.
but I think that finishing the ones we have would be good also. The W&Q #3 only has hand brakes on one truck and I am sure it had air brakes.
I don't think either of the flat cars have brakes. As the track gets ever closer to the Top Of The Mountain, it would be good to have brakes on something besides the locomotive.
As mentioned above the B&SR tank needs a car under it. I wonder if the Maine Narrow gauge have any spare B&SR freight car trucks?
Ted Miles
The coach never had air brakes on it. It only had vaccum brakes. Both flat cars have hand brakes on them.
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Due to great effort by a few of our members, the only car that does not have a handbrake on it is coach 103. The caboose has handbrakes on both trucks, Flatcar 118, the boxcar, coaches 3 & 8 have handbrakes on the south truck, while Flatcar 126 has a handbrake on the north truck. Hope this clears things up.
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Since I worked on the brake projects on #8 and #126, I believe the brakes on #126 are on the south end, unless someone turned it around. The brakes on both cars were installed in bay#1.
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One of the things that may be holding up construction of additional rolling stock is the question of trucks. Sure, we could use arch bar trucks under passenger cars, but that's not authentic. We have a pair of Jackson & Sharpe trucks awaiting overhaul before they can be used. If used under coach 8, that would free up a pair of arch bar trucks for a new freight car, but then we have to decide whether it would be a flat car for the B&SR tank, a straight flat car or a box car. Decisions, decisions.
At some point, perhaps we should consider building reproduction Jackson & Sharpe trucks. There are a number of coaches at Phillips, Portland and Boothbay that could use that type of truck, which rides better and is much more authentic than arch bar freight cars trucks. If we built several pairs at once, the unit cost would go down. In fact, we could put a pair under our caboose, thus providing another pair of arch bar trucks for yet another freight car. Turner Dairy reefer, anyone?
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Railroad cars have there handbrake wheels on the 'B' end of the car. Exception are cabooses (some other non-standard cars), which have a brake wheel at each end. Thus our cars have their B Ends in either North or South direction.
Left and Right are as facing the coupler. Thus the 'A' End Left is on the same side of the car as 'B' End Right. A caboose's 'A' and 'B' ends are marked by an letter A or B above the door.
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The brakes on the two flats are on opposite ends of the cars so one brakeman could control both. I just set them Saturday on 126 so I know those are on the north end.
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The brakes on the two flats are on opposite ends of the cars so one brakeman could control both.
Or switch them around so the brake wheels are at opposite ends, so we can carry a load between two flats without worrying about smashing one of the brake wheels.
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Ira: Here is a reminder of the fun we had back in April; we pushed 126 all the way in to Bay 2, and lifted the north end of the car so we could roll the truck out.
Ted: Coach 3 was delivered with vacuum brakes; supposedly the Eames system. The attached photo is of the underside of the Rangeley, on display at Maine Narrow Gauge RR & Museum; one of the two vacuum cylinders is in the foreground, and the air brake cylinder is in the background. Some of SR&RL's passenger cars had both types of braking systems underneath - the folks at Phillips have photos of the coach they have been restoring, and both systems are under that car, too. However, WW&F only had vacuum brakes, never air brakes.
Now to get dimensions and really good details of the vacuum cylinder for future use...
Dave Crow
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My bad.....
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Does anybody have any photos of the tank body for the future WW&F tankcar? ::) ??? :o :)
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Does anybody have any photos of the tank body for the future WW&F tankcar?
A Marcel Levesque picture from the September/October 2007 newsletter:
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2006-11/1225017/TankTopCompressed.jpg)
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I think that tankcar body should earn a new coat of paint. ;) :)
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The tankcar needs a lot more than paint. It has considerable damage that will need repaired first.
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No since painting it until it is repaired.
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What flatcar will it be mounted on? Will it be a custom built flatcar or some other 2 foot flatcar from MNGM? :) ;) :)
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We'll have to build a new flatcar for the tank. I don't think MNG has any spare flat cars.
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What will the new tankcar will be based from the tankcars of the WW&F past roster? :)
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The WW&F didn't have any tank cars. I imagine we'll restore it as the B&SR tank. It was labeled SOCONY - Standard Oil Company of New York. It originally had the number 21. Eventually, (on the B&SR) it was swapped onto flat #14. When Edaville got a hold of it, the flat car was converted to a coach or excursion car - and the tank was set aside.
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The photo of the tank doesn't show that most of the bottom of the tank is rusted away. And has many holes. Steel plates need to be rolled to size and welded in place.
Maybe some of the camera folks could get a photo of the bottom of the tank as it now is and post it.
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At MNGR, we have many cars that are in need of various levels of repair. So lesson learned is to keep what you have in a good state of repair before going and building more.
Yes, MNGR still has a tank car. Unfortunately, it has been sitting outside deteriorating in the salt air. It's deck is rotted and it needs a good blast and paint job. Bridgton has offered to take this care for a few years and fix it up by putting a new deck on it and repainting it. This is offer is currently under consderation at MNGR. Although we have many cars off site at various places on lease, we still would like to move some more cars off site to make additional room and to allow others the opportunity to fix them up and display or use them. At MNGR we just don't have the space, manpower, money or the facilities to repair everything we got.
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Maybe some of the camera folks could get a photo of the bottom of the tank as it now is and post it.
As requested (another Marcel photo from the newsletter):
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2006-11/1225017/P3TankBotMLBW.JPG)
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I think the talk has been restoring the tank to SOCONY but when the car is built it might be a WW&F car. I don't know what number the car would get but building that is way down on the to do list.
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Perhaps since the tankcar is a new type of car to the WW&F (W&Q) railroad it should start a new # series, I don't see any numbers higher than 510 on the historical list so I think 601 would be a suitible number.
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One WW&F SOCONY tank coming up!
(http://c3.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/23/l_f31e4e6d5e314eb083e0ebee645bd0a6.jpg)
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Eric,
Very nice drawing. Thanks. I think I'll build a model of that in O scale.
Anyone have a rough estimate for the length and diameter of the tank?
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It sat pretty snug on a 30' car. I would guess 28'. If I remember, I'll measure it tomorrow.
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Belive I have seen photos of the tank lettered SOCONY and not the company name completely spelled out
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One WW&F SOCONY tank coming up!
(http://c3.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/23/l_f31e4e6d5e314eb083e0ebee645bd0a6.jpg)
Nice drawing of the future WW&F tankcar #601! Cant wait to see the the real finished one once its built! Man I love the rebuild rolling stock projects! :o :) :D ;D
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According to the photos in "Bridgton and Saco River Railroad Freight Cars" (Barney) the car was labeled "STANDARD OIL COMPANY OF NEW YORK" on the sides, and "SOCNY" on the front and back of the tank. The tank was painted white or gray, and had black lettering.
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It sat pretty snug on a 30' car. I would guess 28'. If I remember, I'll measure it tomorrow.
Scaling off from photos there seems to be close to three feet of open flat car on either end of the car. So I would place the length of the tank around 24'. The dia. I would say is around 5'. This is based off of photos and the drawings in the back of "Two Feet to the Lakes" so take it for what its worth.
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OK. Finally found this thread. Way to much stuff on here now. The Tank is 24 feet long on the flat parts of the tank, and 25 feet to the tip of the bulge in the end of the tank. 16' 6" around, or a little more than 5 feet across. Home this helps. Oh, and looking at a B&SR book last night, it was on a 30 foot car.
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What color should we paint the tankcar body once its ready to be painted? Should it be painted Edaville black or B&SR sliver? ::) ;) :)
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I believe the tank will be silver as it was on Bridgton & Saco River. The car will most likely be red. This car is a ways off due to higher priorities.
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Mike,
Thank you for the tank measurements. It is larger than I thought.
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The one at MNGRR is the smaller of the two. Combined, they could haul a standard gauge tank car load to Bridgton.
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Whats the next passenger or frieght car are you guys are planing to build after the completion of the WW&F tank car? Maybe a WW&F stockcar if the original WW&F railroad had any? Maybe a WW&F combine coach car would look good with WW&F coach #3 if again the original WW&F railroad had any? :) ::) ;) :)
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There has been talk, (if you look back through this verry thread,) of building a combine. Personally, I like the idea, for both variety and for wheelchair access, but that decision rests with the BOD.
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I like the idea too! It would look great with coach #3! Does anyone have any drawing of the future WW&F combine? ::) :)
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Heres a list of rolling stock I would like to see at WW&F in the future! A tankcar, a stockcar, a baggage car, a combine car, a parlor car, a gondola car, a flanger, and another boxcar. :) :D ;D
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The original RR didn't have most of those types of cars. While they might be fun to have, they don't fit into the mission of the museum.
Remember, Matt, this isn't our own personal train layout. We are trying to recreate something as it existed 100 years ago. Now the WW&F had plenty of interesting rolling stock. We've also talked about new replica cars on multiple occasions. (I *think* I converted an old thread about this last night. If not, it's coming.) Most of that was BEFORE we acquired excursion 103, coach 8, and what became flatcar 126.
However, the reality is our yard is full now, and we have plenty of other things that need to be done first: Bathrooms, Roundhouse, Visitor's Center, etc. Once we have gotten to the point in the master plan where we have constructed the car house, then we can turn our attention to ways to fill it. :)
Plus, I think it would be more fun building #11 before we add any rolling stock. I'd also like to see coach 8 outfitted with proper seats.
So much to do, but it is good to dream.
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Yes I know Ed that the WW&F yards have a lot of rebuilding to do! Whats the most important project that the WW&F is doing right now? Let me guess? The car shop extention! ::) :) :D
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Actually, the most important current/active project is the site work for the septic system. That will allow us to have real restrooms. I think some would say the rebuild of #9 is equally important.
We happened to get a grant that funded more than half of the cost of the car shop extension. When you get grant money, you (usually) need to act upon it right away. That's why it got bumped ahead of the restrooms.
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Oh! I guess that bathroom's are the most important after all! ::) :)
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Now only if someone like Cottonelle would give out a grant for bathrooms (And tissue) we could jump into that with both feet.
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I prefer to keep both of my feet out of the septic tank no matter how flush I feel!
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Ira, I knew I opened the lid for a stinky comment like that.
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Ew.
I'm going to wash my hands and shower now...
...and maybe GARGLE while I'm at it!
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I knew I smelled something.
Ira,
Member,
The Society for the Preservation of Wooden Toilet Seats in North America
a.k.a. The Birch John Society
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a.k.a. The Birch John Society
Fortunately, the younger generation will not get the joke :-)
(hint: Google "John Birch Society")
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Ahh - guys, think we have "splintered" this subject enough ;D
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I agree!
BTW: Was there ever a 2' shingle car?
**DUCKS!**
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Although I know you guys are focusing on bathrooms and other projects - but, once the tankcar is finished then what's the next piece of rolling stock are you guys are planing to really build next? Is it another freight car or passenger car? it must not include any steam, diesel, or railcar projects. :) ::) ;D
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Hi Matt,
I don't think there are any firm plans - just lots of opinions.
We tend to think of things in 5-10 year increments and it will be at least 10 years (barring one of us hitting the lottery) before we will need to decide what piece of rolling stock (if any) we should build next.
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Before we leave the subject of the B&SR tank car that needs a new flat car under it; I think that is should be a correctly sized B&SR flat car.
There are are several possible WW&F cars that can be replicated. Perhaps helping the Albion historical Society re-built that flanger would be a good thing. It sure looks like it would get a lot of use at Alna these days.
I would rather see cars that once existed on the WW&F not something like a tank on the wrong size flat car such as proposed. The wW&F did not have any tanks; that is the historical recod weather we like it or not.
By the way I just rad that the National Railway & Locomotive Historical Society just gave the Boothbay railway Village a grant to built a car barn to protect their historical equipment.
Last time I was there several years ago; therewas no lettering on their WW&F box car. how about loaning them the stencils to put the WW&F name and #312 on the car?
Happy New Year,
Ted Miles
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While in Bridgton, the tank was on a 30' flat. When built, the car is going to be a 30' flat. Exact positioning of the stake pockets will be left up to the design team, but most likely it will resemble a WW&F car.
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Mabye the next car after the tankcar is finshed, can be a lumber car! Did the WW&F ever haul lumber like the SR&RL did? ::) ;) :)
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Lumber cars were just flatcars with stakes in the pockets on the WW&F. SR&RL built sides on some of their flatcars.
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Did any of the other Two Footers log with disconnects the way the SR&RL did?
In a day when we don't even have catwalks on freight cars anymore it's tough to imagine brakemen walking along a 6 inch wide stiff-shackle between two moving log bunks on rough logging track the way those guys did. It's almost as if they extpected to get hurt here and there as part of normal working life. I guess it was no big deal to guys who also worked with link and pin couplers and rode inside a wooden snowplow with three engines pushing as hard as they could on the coupler. Sometimes I think the fact that so few of them were killed is a miracle.
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Steve, you mention it seemed as though the men were "expected" to get hurt. You need to remember that things were looked at differently back then. The story is told about Philadelphia and Reading CEO Franklin Gowan, when he was told that the mine at Tamaqua, PA was on fire. His first response was "Rescue the Mules!" When asked what about the miners, his reply was..."forget the miners, I can always hire more miners, I have to BUY mules!
Keith
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Matt, The WW&F did not use rack style cars like the Sandy River line. The SR&RL had high side boards on some of their flatcars, it resembled a fence or the horizontal sides used on cattle chutes. The side boards were tied together with iron rods at the top. The rods kept the sides plumb if the load shifted. There was a small inset at the brake wheel for the brakeman. The load was usually 4,5 or 6 foot logs stacked across the car. There is a replica rack car at Phillips. It was built for the National Narrow Gauge Convention in 2007.
The WW&F didn't often carry short logs. As Mike said, the WW&F flatcars had long side stakes. The stakes were often cut from Birch and were used for carrying logs or lumber. The wood was stacked length-wise on the car. On rare occasions a rope was tied to the top of the stakes for extra bracing across the load.
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Does anyone have any photos of WW&F Boxcar #309 when it was a flatcar before rebuilding it into a boxcar? :) ;) :)
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Does anyone have any photos of WW&F Boxcar #309 when it was a flatcar before rebuilding it into a boxcar?
According to The Wiscasset, Waterville and Farmington Railway - a Technical and Pictorial Review by Peter S. Barney, boxcars 314 through 319 were rebuilt flatcars, but there are no such notes concerning 309. Therefore, I would guess that 309 has always been a boxcar.
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Does anyone have any photos of WW&F Boxcar #309 when it was a flatcar before rebuilding it into a boxcar?
According to The Wiscasset, Waterville and Farmington Railway - a Technical and Pictorial Review by Peter S. Barney, boxcars 314 through 319 were rebuilt flatcars, but there are no such notes concerning 309. Therefore, I would guess that 309 has always been a boxcar.
However, one of Gary Kohler's Narrow Gauge in the Sheepscot Valley series covers freight cars, and 309 is specifically discussed. He believes it was probably W&Q flatcar 28, but he acknowledges that the outer stringers when we tore it apart 10 years ago did not have tell-tale signs of flatcar-ness (holes for the side brackets).