W.W.&F. Discussion Forum
The Maine Narrow Gauges (Historic & Preserved) => Bridgton & Saco River Railway => Topic started by: Herb Kelsey on February 03, 2012, 02:03:16 AM
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Greetings folks! This is my first post here and I want to take a second to introduce myself. I have been a railfan and modeler for well over 60 years, having had my first wind up train at 2 and my first Lionel at 5! I wore that little 2-4-2 down to a nub! I discovered HO at about 10 and was bitten by the narrow gauge bug at 15. The ‘disease’ continues.
For the most part my focus has been the Colorado 3’ gauge operations, particularly the Rio Grande Southern and I have modeled the RGS in several scales. Standard gauge wise, the AT&SF takes up some of my time. Maine’s 2-Footers have always been a point of interest but I never could bring myself to actually model them as I was actively involved in other gauges.
Ah but now my medium has changed to computers and all things are possible. As well as having the ability to run over most of the Santa Fe and building my own RGS, I can now dabble in the Lilliputs! The computer is the layout and Microsoft Train Simulator is the medium.
“Oh no, not MS Train Simulator” I hear some of you say, but if you haven’t looked at the sim lately you may be in for a shock. The old low detail models and hokey tracks and scenery are a thing of the past. Third party vendors and hobbyists have turned the sow’s ear into a silk purse.
I’m working with a friend who has built and released a Monson RR in MSTS, is working on an SR&RL but who is currently building hard and fast on the B&SR. Just as a few examples of this work can be found in the next post.
The problem is that my friend who is building the route is in Germany and I am in San Diego. Somewhere in the middle between us is a place called Maine – inaccessible to both of us! When we have questions we have to rely on the scant printed resources and the very few – as compared with something like the RGS! – photographic works. And so I anticipate that there will be a serious need to pick the brains of those who are close to the ground and who have spent a lot more of their time with the Maine 2-Footers than I have.
OK, so here goes. Question 1: The Summit.
There are numerous references in photo captions and text about trains ‘doubling’ the hill to The Summit but there doesn’t seem to be anyplace near MP 3 to park the first half while you go get the second. Timetables also show opposing movements that, if you extrapolate the movement of the trains, would put the opposite direction trains together at about Summit, yet no work mentions a siding anywhere in the area – See Jones TFTTL P 53 with Train 3 leaving West Sebago at 10:04 AM, arriving at Bridgton Jct. at 10:30 AM, and Train 4 leaving Bridgton Jct. at 10:07 AM, arriving at West Sebago at 10:37 AM. If you figure running time on both trains that has 3 past Twin Lakes at 10:14 AM and 4 past Mullins at 10:18 AM. Somewhere, magically between Twin Lakes and Mullins these two pass. Where?
Between Bridgton Jct. and Bridgton there only appear to be two passing sidings or run-arounds. Can this be true?
OK, let’s see what you guys come up with on that one. There will be more to come. :LOL:
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Cornfield meet at the Summit!
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No. 1 at Twin Lakes.
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Through the posies.
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Train 3 at Perley's Mills.
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Nice screen shots.
The most know passing siding that the B&SR used was the one at Hancock Pond. There were sidings at the gravel pit but I doubt they met there.
As for the summit. If the train had to double the hill, they would set out the head end on a siding, which the next one North would have been Twin Lakes or the Gravel Pit.
There are several books that have been published on the railroad. I will review the ones I have and see If I can come up with a firm answer on the meeting of the two trains.
Some of the recent pictures I have taken can be found here on NERail. http://photos.nerail.org/show/?order=byrail&page=1&key=Bridgton%20%26%20Saco%20River (http://photos.nerail.org/show/?order=byrail&page=1&key=Bridgton%20%26%20Saco%20River)
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I don't have Bridgton book in front of me at the moment but a gentleman I met a few years back showed me where there had been a passing siding. He lives on what is now refered to as " Narrowgauge Way" just a few hundred yards from the Hancock Brook Arch. At the top of that former ROW he showed me where he said there had been a passing siding. Mike, I'm sure you know exactly where I mean but at the moment the location escapes.
Duncan
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Thanks guys!
In Two Feet to the Lakes Jones says "The northbound grade to The Summit began about a mile north of the sation at Rankin's Mill. Crews with full tonnaged disliked stopping at this point for passengers as this would interfere with the fast run needed to make it to the top....When this happened, the freight cars were taken to the top where a siding had been built to hold about a dozen cars. The flats and boxes were left on the siding and the engine would then drift back down the grade to bring up the passenger equipment. The head-end cars were picked up, the train doubled together, and the run continued."
Yet I can find no photos or plans that show a siding up there at MP3...... ???
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Duncan, I think you are thinking Mullins, between Rankins and summit on the Narrow Gauge Way. We had a copy of the Big track map that was loaned to us by Bill Shelley on one of our trips. Wish I still had my hands on it.
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Ah, still 3/10 of a mile or more of heavy grade after Mullins. :)
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Hi Mike,
I believe you are correct. The only purpose-built, double-ended passing siding between Bridgton and the Junction was the one near Hancock Tank. In later years, this siding was 10 cars long. The B&SR siding maps reproduced in Peter Barney's "Pictorial Journey of the B&SR" show this siding as being only 5 cars long in 1918, but I believe this was only one of several instantiations and it was augmented by a 9 car south-end connected siding. In later years of the B&SR, the southern switch of the 10 car siding was unusable.
The siding near Summit was a north-end connected siding and used primarily for doubling north-bound trains. I wouldn't be surprised if it was used to pass trains occasionally either. The grade immediately north of Summit siding, while still uphill, is pretty modest - almost level.
Sandy Creek had a double-ended siding across the road from (i.e. - south of) the depot, but it was only seven cars long and probably not used for passing trans - at least on a regular basis.
There were a few other long sidings on the line to the junction which "could' at least theoretically been used for passing trains, but whether they were actually used in this way, I don't know.
I hope this helps.
Best Regards,
Glenn
The most know passing siding that the B&SR used was the one at Hancock Pond. There were sidings at the gravel pit but I doubt they met there.
As for the summit. If the train had to double the hill, they would set out the head end on a siding, which the next one North would have been Twin Lakes or the Gravel Pit.
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OK, let's keep that one open and go for another question.
Is there a profile map for the B&SR out there anywhere? One that shows the grades and elevations for the right of way?
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Hi Herb,
I don't have a B&SR gradient profile to share with you, but how about a USGS map showing the railroad?
Check it out at:
http://historical.mytopo.com/ (http://historical.mytopo.com/)
Best Regards,
Glenn
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Glenn, where was the siding at Summit? We had a good idea where Mullins was on our trip, but the ground had changed enough that the only possible spot I thought was by the camp on Barker Pond that is right on the edge of the road.
No good gradient maps that I know of. Elevations are listed. But the track maps at The Bridgton Historical Society may have some of that type of information on it.
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Three or four years ago, I gave complete copies of all B&SR & SR&RL real estate Valuation maps (required by the ICC) to the WW&F Archives. - These had all sidings drawn on them as of the date of the drawing. I also gave period geological survey maps of both railroads - and they sometimes showed where there were sidings (early 20th Century.) I copied WW&F and Monson valuation maps at the National archives , and they are in the archives.
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Thanks, Glenn. I'll dig into that.
Man, I'd love to get my eyes on those maps, Allen! Is there any plan to digitize them, since I'm a long way from the WW&F? :(
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Hi Herb,
The late Bob Outland pointed out the location of Summit siding to me many years ago. Bill Shelley and I had the opportunity to visit it a year or two ago. The siding was on the west side of the mainline a couple hundred yards north of the point where the ROW takes a sharp left hand curve through a bit of granite ledge. This cut is in the area once known as Barker Falls and is the location where the water from Barker Pond spills into Hancock Brook. The ROW north of the cut runs parallel to and is roughly 30- 40 feet above the cottages lining the west shore of Barker Pond.
Best Regards,
Glenn
Glenn, where was the siding at Summit? We had a good idea where Mullins was on our trip, but the ground had changed enough that the only possible spot I thought was by the camp on Barker Pond that is right on the edge of the road.
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Glenn, that is perfect! Exactly where my friend and I figured it would be. Thank you very much sir! :D
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Oops, one correction, I think the location I referred to was known as Hancock Falls, not Barker Falls.
Now I'm not sure ... can someone else confirm?
Best Regards,
Glenn
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Barker Dam is what I call it Glenn.
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Thanks Mike!
Best Regards,
Glenn
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Mike,
Was that track map that Bill Shelly had when we did the walkabout a loaner from someone else or is it something he might stilll have? If he still has the map, perhaps he would allow it to be photographed. Even if the photos were of specific locations only, at least we would have some idea of the number and length of sidings as well as approximate locations based upon mile markers.
Duncan
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I'll try to get with the historical society sometime soon and see if I can copy some pages.
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Hi all,
Have the location of these maps been determined? The Bridgton Historical Soc lists "B & SRR Track Map, Primary Sheets
B & SRR R.O.W. & Track Maps Misc. docs. In Bridgton Machine & Lumber Co. Coll., ca. 1910-1917 " on their website.
I'm thinking of heading up there soon to see if I can see them. I have next Thursday and Friday off.
Rob Carignan
Portland
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Try visiting the Bridgton Historical Society. Check the hours and dates to make sure they are open. I saw them once a number of years ago. They have tables you can roll them out on to view.
Good luck.