W.W.&F. Discussion Forum
The Maine Narrow Gauges (Historic & Preserved) => The Original W&Q and WW&F: 1894-1933 => Topic started by: Reuben Bailey on July 31, 2008, 09:03:19 PM
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Here is a link to the files from my guesses on the FS&K route. The old forum has a good discussion about it. I can't tell if people are still planning on using the old forum or not, so I figured that I would bring these over here.
Reuben
Link to KMZ file:
http://bbs.keyhole.com/ubb/download.php?Number=973924
Link to Google Maps with KMZ file displayed:
http://maps.google.com/maps?q=http://bbs.keyhole.com/ubb/download.php?Number=973924&t=k&om=1
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Thanks Rueben. I was just looking at my state Delorme yesterday about that area and then I wondered which route they would have taken. Yours seems logical. I only wish there were more evidence to be found.
Mike
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Rereading Jones, 'Two Feet to Tidewater' and see picture p.75 labeled as "spans the Sandy River at New Sharon". I think this is in error. Sure looks like the abutments we still see today over Muddy Brook along Route 2. Can't find any info on the Sandy River Crossing yet. Did have a breakfast meeting in Mercer this morning and met a man who says he has picture info on railbed work in the Mile Hill Region of New Sharon. He is searching now for the pix. If this is found it may be some original info about work East of the Sandy. I have now found and purchased a copy of Ben and Natalie Butler's booklet "Farmington Falls-Where Farmington Began" which has a picture of the completed Railway Station at Farmington Falls. I'm planning to visit the Alna Museum soon and will bring this along. Maybe we can find a way to make the photos available as there is also a pix of the approach to Farmington at Abbott Hill (near Cumberland Farms location). I've put out a call to the New Sharon Historical Society for any tidbits they might know of.
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Great news. Please keep us posted.
As far as Jones' pic, you are correct. Pg. 211 in Two Feet Between the Rails has the same shot. But it does not say it crosses the Sandy River. This was taken from the old highway which is now a town road. The Newer Route 2 now passes over the river behind the abuttments.
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Hi, Visited the Museum a couple weeks ago, paid my dues, and left a picture of the newly completed FS&K Railroad Station at Farmington Falls from the Butler book of 1976 along with some other materials. Been hoping to see the picture on this site, but we may be tangled up with legalities. Also just purchased "The History of Mercer, Maine 1782-1974" by Harold Owens Smith (1977). Inside on p. 122-123 is a very detailed description of the surveyed route of the Franklin and Kennebec Rail Road Company done about 1848 by F.W. Lander. Though this is an earlier company than the FS&K, and it is a route from Augusta to Farmington, it may contain at least some of what was used 50 years later when work was really started. If there is any interest in seeing the whole surveyed description I'll copy it. Also there are copies of this book available at Mercer Town Office for $15 paid to Mercer Historical Society. Glenn Byron
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Hi, Yesterday I went to UMF Library in Farmington where all local newsprint is on microfilm and hit PAYDIRT. I had previously been searching 1900-1901 for info on FS&K work. Rereading Moody's "Maine Two Footers" It seemed that the work started earlier. I started in the Farmington Chronicle 1897-98 box and there it is. First item I found was Thursday February 25, 1897. A full column about the "Proposed Franklin, Somerset and Kennebec Railroad". This is in the pre building stage and trying to drum up interest in the project before town Meetings. I was able to find about 15 entries in the Chronicle thru July 1, 1897. During this period several towns were asked to approve the idea as well as the Maine Legislature. This is very tedious work as the microfilm is hard to read and the copies I don't believe are scanable. But for a RR history buff, this is the Mother Lode! Not just news items, but local gossip from town corrospondents. All this gives us a real look at what was going on. I have never found much previously written history of this ill-fated venture. I can write it, but it will take a while. We need to continue thru the years 1897-1898 and maybe more. Town Reports of Waterville, Oakland, Smithfield, Rome, Mercer, New Sharon and Farmington need to be checked. Other newspapers have more, I'm sure. There has to be a lot of info out there if we can find it, but at least now we have a starting point. My old eyes were toast after four hours, but I've started a folder and will be back for more. Cost is almost nothing as UMF charges 10 cents a copy, but as I said I don't think they are scanable. They will have to be retyped and my skills include the Columbus Method. If anyone else finds this of interest, get with me and let's go for it.
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Glenn,
This is very interesting to me. While I am remote from Maine, (Live in Texas), if there anything I can do to help, please let me know. While I am not a speed typist, I am slightly faster than the Columbus method. Spell-checker lets me type fast and correct the spelling later. ;D
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Life Member and former WW&F Curator Jim Bergmann's new book on the WW&F and Alna, Maine, which I am now in the process of editing with Jim, has some interesting new info from local newspapers of the time at the WW&F end of this proposed railroad. I am shooting for a publication date before the Annual Picnic in August. Finished Book will be about 100 pages with 70 pages of text and 30 to 40 pages of photos from the WW&F Archives. More later.
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If I'm not mistaken, wasn't some grading work started on this route? If so it would be very enlightening to find articles, pictures, or other records detailing this. Would make a really neat expedition to find remnants of this.
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Yes. Several miles were graded and in town Farmington was elevated on trestle work to have minimal street crossings. While this was a great idea at the time, it left no evidence of where the track truly went through Farmington. There used to be a ramp built of dirt at one end but I think by now it is gone. If I recall correctly, there is a picture of the fill, trestle work and a bridge in New Sharon in Jones' book Two Feet Between the Rails.
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Hello again, I just purchased a second copy of the 1976 book, "The Falls: Where Farmington Began in 1776" by Natalie Butler, which I am donating to the WW&F Museum. In it, on page 18, is a picture of the trestle over Main Street Farmington on the way to the MCRR/SRRL Rail Yard. This would be just past the present location of the Cumberland Farms Store. According to Linwood Moody's first edition book (1959) the problems developed as FS&K tried to get approval to come into the MCRR Yard which would be less than a quarter mile westward where they would connect to the Sandy River and Rangely Lakes Narrow Guage. MCRR denied access and FS&K Directors did not fight the decision. Again, as in Burnham, they built railbed before they had permission and effectively killed the whole project. Moody even wondered why they did not route a little north and connect to SRRR outside the MCRR Yard. This book has a wonderful biography section on Leonard Atwood, the major player in the ill fated FS&K venture. Also on page 19 is a copy of a painting of the Farmington Falls Railroad Station, all finished and waiting for the first train (Which never Arrived!). The original of this painting hangs in The Titcomb House across from the Farmington Public Library and maintained by The Farmington Historical Society. The Falls Station location was on what is now called the Mason Rd. right near the New Sharon Town Line and maybe a quarter mile from the F. Falls Village. I'm anxious to get back to the old newspapers for another taste of this.
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Update Again: I've scanned all 16 Farmington Chronicle articles from Feb. to July 1, 1897 and sent them to Allan Fisher to be sure everything is included in the new book. Even though the microfilm copies were of poor quality, the scans are usable. My computer skills are very limited and this has been a great learning experience. I hope Allan can find a way to share some of this material and hope to get back to UMF to get some more. Today I visited the Oakland Library, but came up empty on FS&K info. They recomended Colby College. I know there is more info available in records of The Maine Legislature who approved the FS&K proposal in the 1897 Session. It would seem that many organizations such as the Grange would have had speakers in preparation for the Town Meetings in towns along the proposed route. We need some help here. DIG, DIG, DIG. Let's be sure the new book has anything not previously uncovered.
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MODERATORS NOTE:
FS&K Route on GE has been converted from the pre-July 2008 WW&F Discussion Forum.
Some formatting may have been removed or modified from the original postings that appear quoted in this topic.
Information contained within this post may be superseded by more recent postings and conversations.
Reuben Bailey wrote:
Hello everyone. I've just posted a very preliminary version of where I think the FS&K roadbed might have been from Farmington to New Sharon. I have been through the area many times, but have not had an eye open for roadbed possibilities, so everything here is pretty much based on the aerial photos and the terrain as GE shows it. I'd like to hear what everyone thinks, and if they can correct the errors that I am sure exist. Also, any ideas on how they were going to get from New Sharon to Waterville are welcome - I haven't even started on that, other than to make the end point in Waterville.
All the Best,
Reuben
Link to posted map:
http://maps.google.com/maps?q=http://bbs.keyhole.com/ubb/download.php?Number=973924&t=k&om=1 (http://maps.google.com/maps?q=http://bbs.keyhole.com/ubb/download.php?Number=973924&t=k&om=1)
Link to .kmz file (for Google Earth client program):
http://bbs.keyhole.com/ubb/download.php?Number=973924 (http://bbs.keyhole.com/ubb/download.php?Number=973924)
James Patten replied:
I sort of know the lay of the land around the Waterville area, having gone to college there for 5 years.
I believe that stream that empties into the Kennebec is called Messalonskee Stream. I figured that somehow the railroad first needed to get into Waterville proper, then would likely follow the Messalonskee working its way up and out of the Kennebec river valley. The Waterville area sits on bluffs of sorts next to the river. The Messalonskee now has been dammed in a couple of different places, so I would assume the gully was once pretty deep and steep, separating one portion of Waterville from another.
I am much less familiar with the topography west of the interstate.
Stephen Hussar replied:
I sort of know the lay of the land around the Waterville area, having gone to college there for 5 years.
Thanks James, I feel better now, knowing that I wasn't the only one on "the 5 year plan!" (http://ngdiscussion.net/phorum/mods/smileys/images/smiley25.gif)
James Patten replied:
Ah, but for my 5 years in school I got my Bachelor's and Master's degrees at the same time.
BM1455 replied:
Reuben,
I'm fairly sure that your map of the FS&K is off a bit between New Sharon and Farmington. I believe that you are following the roads too much. Much of the ROW was out in what is now fields and woods. I also think that the enterence to Farmington came in more through what is now the fairgraonds- not where the current roads are, and did not snake around so much in town to reach the SR&RL. The part in New Sharon was closer to the river and behind the cemetary. I have walked it last fall. That part of the grade is still there and is walkable.
I have a map I made on Google maps as well but I did not know how to save it, so I just printed it off before it got deleted when I left the site.
Eric.
Mike Fox replied:
Not bad. Some places make sense. Next time I am through the area, I'll have to look some more.
Mike
Reuben Bailey replied:
Hello Everyone.
I have updated the file in GE to reflect some of the changes mentioned above. The links in my first post will show the new file.
Eric, the way that I have been doing this is through the Google Earth client software. There may be some way to do it in Google Maps, although I don't know. GE is free to download and has pretty high res pics, sometimes a little higher than the maps. It is somewhat slow to load pictures over dialup, however.
Dana Deering replied:
You might also get an idea as to where the FS&K route went by looking in the 1896 and 1897 Maine Railroad Commissioner's Reports. In one of them it lists all the towns in which the FS & K applied for grade crossings.
Dana
glennstin replied:
Hi All, Just joined and this discussion is a frequent coffee shop topic here in Smithfield. I'll repeat an email sent to the museum and replied to by James:
To my knowledge there is no definitive route known for the route to
Farmington, beyond what was graded from Farmington to New Sharon. The
Museum does have a discussion forum where we have postulated what the
route might have been.
James Patten
WW&F Railway Museum
Glenn Byron wrote:
> Hello, A group of us here in Smithfield, Maine have been trying to find
> a map of the proposed branch of WW&F which would have linked to the
> SR&RL at Farmington. We have visited the old trestle site in New Sharon
> and still see some of the bed along the Sandy River. A near as we can
> tell, the Kennebec River crossing was not finished. Is there any
> information as to how much of the bed was done and the route it was to
> follow? An oldtimer here in town claims he heard of someone who "Worked
> on the Railroad in Smithfield." The route from Waterville might have
> included us in the Belgrade Lakes Region and along the way Mercer thru
> New Sharon then Farmington. We would like to update our town history if
> there is any info available. Thanks, Glenn Byron, PO Box 113,
> Smithfield, ME. 04978
Mike Fox replied:
Glenn,
Take a look at Rueben's maps. They make sense. Maybe this will point you to a location you might recognize and can spot some grading that had been done. If you do find anything, please let us know.
Mike
BM1455 replied:
After looking at Reuben's updated maps I beleive his V-2.2 map is the closest. Mostly dead on from New Sharon to Farmington, untill it gets to the the fair grounds in Farmington....then my hunch is that it would have been a bit more of a staight line than his map shows as there are no reeal topographical obstcles to force the curves that are drawn on his map. However, this area is so obliterated with developement now it would be hard to ever know by looking at arial photos taken recently.
Reuben Bailey replied:
Hello all,
I just updated the file for the FS&K V2 file to reflect Eric's suggestion - in looking at the ground from a low angle it became apparent that the ground is higher where the line runs now - it could be an old fill, but it is hard to tell. Before I was trying to follow what appears to be a ravine, thinking that the line would have been climbing from the low area through it. This way makes more sense, particularly if the low area was bridged by trestle work, which I think I have heard somewhere on these forums. Anyhow - keep the info and ideas coming.
All the best,
Merry Christmas and Happy New Year,
Reuben
BM1455 replied:
Reuben,
Again, I beleive that the V2 version is most accurate. If you ever get a chance to drive along the road - Rt 27 i think - about a mile south east of the fair grounds you will see those fields that V2 goes through. I real life they look like a RR grade. They also line up with known ROW points that intersect with some of the side roads off the the north of Rt 27 a little further south east.
On your latest update, I would think that the ROW could have been even more direct than you have shown between the last sharp curve just east of the fiargrounds and where the V2 meets the red line near the stream to the west of the fairgrounds. That developement was not there in the early 1900's and it appears to be quite a level area. Why have curves if it is flat? ...of course this is all speculation as to what it was like in that area 100 years ago but I'll bet it was a straight line coming out of that last turn that cut diagnaly through the extreme lower half of the race track and then crossing the road at a sharp angle - then plowing through those darned houses. ...OK now I'm getting carried away.
(http://images/smiles/icon_smile.gif)
Reuben Bailey replied:
Eric,
it seems unlikely to me that the ROW would cut through the corner of the fairgrounds. I don't know the age of the building that a straight line would cut through, but it doesn't seem right. Patterns are often followed once they have been established, and property lines would have been formed by the ROW. I do not know what level of development there was in this part of Farmington at the time of the railroad, but even if it was farm fields, the ROW would have left traces that may have been followed in later development. I am open to being persuaded that the line did run straight, but I'm not convinced that it would have been so completely erased by the subsequent "progress."
If anyone is able to look at the tax maps there it may provide some hints. Also the MRCR that Dana mentioned may prove helpful. Does anyone know if this is available anywhere other than the State Archives?
I've changed the files on GE again - the links above should still work.
All the best,
Reuben
BM1455 replied:
Reuben,
I am making the assumption that the fairgrounds, or at least the race track was not there durring the FS&K days. Same for the housing developement, which appears to be from a much latter time.
I could be wrong on that but maybe not.
Eric.
MikeW replied:
There may or may not be tax maps going back that far in Farmington - I have not done work in that town so I don't know. In addition to these, I would check with the Assessor if there any "Sanborn Maps". These were created for insurance companies for valuation purposes. They are a tremendous source of information since they show not only property lines but also structure footprints, number of stories etc. I have found them to be surprisingly accurate despite when they were created. Also the town may have street or right of way maps showing the legal boundaries of streets and right of ways under public ownership. These are usually very early documents and it is possible some clues may be found on them too.
glennstin replied:
Hi All, The fair dates more than 150 years. I'm not sure of the dates and whether the location has changed, but it can be checked easily. I know many fair association members of the Franklin County Agricultural Society and some of them go back several generations, such as The Hall Farms in East Dixfield where I grew up. Ralph, Charlie, d**k and now his sons have all been heavily involved. I'll talk this around as others familiar with the Farmington area can to see where it leads us. We used to ride snowmobiles crossing the Sandy River about where the power line station is today and follow it to gain access to the old high school located on outer Middle St. Somehow I remember a little Narrow Guage bed being involved, but I may be confusing our use of the old SR&R bed north of town. As most know much of that bed has been preserved as snowmobile trail all over Franklin County. Stay tuned, this topic has me wound up! Glenn Byron, Smithfield, ME.
Reuben Bailey replied:
Eric,
I think that the development you are talking about is the trailer park right behind the business that I marked. If that the case, then I would guess that you are right about it not being there then. However, I am guessing that the road between Franklin and Stanley Avenues could be the old road bed. The other alternative that I posted is just playing around.
Glenn - I've marked where I think you are talking about crossing the river - let me know if I'm right. It will be interesting to hear what you find out from your friends.
Mike, I'm planning on trying to get a hold of the MRCR at the State Archives, but it will probably be a while before I do. A trip to Farmington to dig up any maps of any kind will also be in order - it will also be a while before I get to do so.
All the best,
Reuben
http://maps.google.com/maps?q=http://bbs.keyhole.com/ubb/download.php?Number=973924&t=k&om=1 (http://maps.google.com/maps?q=http://bbs.keyhole.com/ubb/download.php?Number=973924&t=k&om=1)
BM1455 replied:
Hey Reuben,
I thinks the three track plans that you have now represent a good range as to what was likely the route. Without maps, I doubt you will ever know for sure. The section accross the river/ stream and closer to the SRRR junction is most likely correctly identified by the purple line as you can still see the grade when standing in the street. This area is behind the icecream shop that we all like to go to when we visit Farmington in the summer time.
glennstin replied:
Hi All, The best place to research in Farmington is at the Univ. of Maine @ Farmington Library. All the old newspapers from the whole area are there. Let me know if anyone is working on this project in the area and maybe we can hook up. Glenn
glennstin replied:
Hi All, Been down with the flu, but my buddy brought by a copy of TWO FEET TO TIDEWATER, expanded and updated version, 2002. First time I had seen the P. 72 map. YES! WE came close to having a railroad in Smithfield. Just imagaine how tiny Rome, Maine might have been the port on Great Pond. Our coffee shop, Sweet Dreams, at the junction of 137 & 225 would have been right there also. This seems a very feasable route, although Farmington Falls looks a ways off the route. We have this great discussion of the Falls RR Station going and I bet some photos are going to pop up soon. I know a bunch of old timers right there and the search is on. Any way this is the greatest book on WW&F that I've ever seen. I taking dates from here and going to UM@Farmington Library to check the microfilms. They are the depository for all local newspapers. That P.75 picture of the nearly completed RR Trestle @ New Sharon just haunts us as we drive Route 2 just west of Tuttle's Auto Sales and still see the ghost like abutments of more than 100 years in the past. Keep Diggin', Glenn
DWhittemore replied:
Reuben,
I am making the assumption that the fairgrounds, or at least the race track was not there durring the FS&K days.
Eric.
Without knowing for certain, I would still be willing to bet that the racetrack was definitely in place when the right-of-way was being laid out. Those were the days of harness racing when a champion harness racer was as famous as Elvis and the Beatles put together. So the racetrack at Farmington would have been sacred ground and no sweet talking promoter would win any friends by trying to borrow a piece of it. I have seen several old photos of turn of the last century races at Farmington, but without dates on them I can't be 100% of the layout.
I sure hope somebody digs up some info on the Farmington Falls station!
-Donovan
James Patten replied:
For those that get the newsletter, Ellis Walker had an article on the FS&K in his Musings. He used the map of the FS&K found in Two Feet to Tidewater. The thing I found interesting was the branch lines from New Sharon to Norridgewock, Augusta, and Gardiner. I'd always thought those were standard gauge railroads that had been already built or were proposed, although I'd never recalled a railroad being built up there.
DWhittemore replied:
Wow, thanks for pointing that out James. I didn't realize that all those branch lines coming out of New Sharon were meant to be part of the 2 foot system. Does anyone know if there is any other record of those proposed branch lines? Looks like some thought went into the routes, like maybe some money people were in West Gardiner or Manchester to explain that odd path to Gardiner. And to think of New Sharon being such a rail hub!
Hope you're all staying warm up there in the wilds.
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MODERATORS NOTE:
Franklin, Somerset, and Kennebec Railway has been converted from the pre-July 2008 WW&F Discussion Forum.
Some formatting may have been removed or modified from the original postings that appear quoted in this topic.
Information contained within this post may be superseded by more recent postings and conversations.
Dana Deering wrote:
I know there are a few FS&K afficianados out there. I would like to start a discussion of this two footer that as Linwood Moody put it "almosted but not quited". Anyone interested?
Stewart Rhine replied:
Dana, I think it is a good idea. The FS&K is an interesting line. Zack and I have tried to find the grade over the last 5 or 6 years. We have only see the trestle approaches and piers at New Sharon. The rest is still a mystery. I would like to know where the line ran and how much was graded. There's probably more out there that we have not seen. If any members know of existing grade in other locations I'd like to hear about it.
Mike Fox replied:
Stewart, in my limited time around the Farmington area, I was able to figure what little grading that was done in town is now long gone. And between New Sharon and Farmington appears to have been taken over in places by Route 2. I would like to get up there sometime and do some scouting myself. And After 100 years, the abutments in New Sharon look the same today as they do in the photos taken back then. Amazing.
Mike
Stewart Rhine replied:
Mike, I think you are right about Route 2 covering the FS&K grade. I have been going to Farmington since 1998 and have never found any of it. I think the grade would have come into town near where the Giffords Ice Cream store (or the road next to it) is. This idea is based on the location of the original Maine Central Freight house. This is the long building that houses the "Just Ask" rental store. The FS&K had a legal appeal with the MCRR over the location of the building. The FS&K wanted to move it or order to make a direct connection with the SR&RL at the passenger station. They lost the appeal and the building remained in it's original spot. If you look at the allignment of the building it gives you an idea of where the FS&K mainline would have been. As you know, the passenger station was moved closer to the river so there is no reference to the narrowgauge from it's current location.
Stewart
James Patten replied:
I have moved this thread to the Original WW&F topic.
James
Allan Fisher replied:
Allan Socea drew a map for Zack today that shows the ROW crossing Route 2 and skirting a cemetery and then heading for the proposed bridge crossing the river. Allan says this part of the right of way - (very close to the village of New Sharon) is still easy to find.
Stewart Rhine replied:
I have walked all of the grade that I can find at New Sharon. One thing to note is how narrow the grade is on top of the high fill at the north end of the bridge. The track bed on the approach is just 5 feet wide for the entire length of the fill. This brings some questions. The most obvious is what size ties were to be used on the FS&K? Five footers would have been right at the edge of the fill. The SR&RL had some real heavy power in that era but those engines probably would not have been traveling on such an unstable fill. The WW&F has nice wide fills in most places. Some may have been widened with the arrival of engines 6 and 7 but most were probably built that way. Why wasn't the FS&K built to the same standards? It may have been the cost factor. Maybe the idea was to get the line into operation and then upgrade as time and funds allowed. The bridge seems to have been built to fairly high standards. One wonders why the approaches were so narrow, even by two foot standards.
If any of you get in that area it is worth the walk to the top of the high fill to see the grade.
Joe Fox replied:
Stewart,
There are some fills along the line North towards the Mountain from end of track that used to be only about five feet wide. Or at least they were only that wide before the excavator went through. I haven't been up there to see how different the fill and grade looks now.
Joe
Stewart Rhine replied:
Joe, I have walked the WW&F grade from Alna Center north to the 218 crossing 4or 5 times and I know the area you mentioned. Yes, the high fills are narrow on top but to me the grade at New Sharon looks even narrower. I may measure them when I go up there next week. Another question is whether any bridge abutments or piers were built at the crossing of the Sandy River. Since the bridge contractor completed the span at New Sharon (except for ties and rail) one would think that the next bridge would have at least been started. I have never seen anything. Do you know where the line would have crossed the river?
David Johnson replied:
Stewart, it's kind of hard to tell from out here in Kansas, but would the F,S&K need to cross the Sandy River? As I recall the railroads were on the north side of the river and that the river flowed more southerly while the F,S&K would have gone to the east. Straighten me out on the geography. I've seen the piers at New Sharon and Winslow, but couldn't find much else. The Sandy River book, Two Feet Between the Rails, had a couple of photos in it of low trestles on the grounds of the school or college at Farmington and also of a single span road overpass, so it would seem that the bridge contract must have been completed at least to New Sharon. I seem to recall that some flat or work cars were delivered to Farmington for rail laying. Was any rail ever spiked down or am I imagining things?
Joe Fox replied:
oh. My dad might be able to answer that question since he is all over the place driving his flat bed truck. I beleive I have seen a photo of an abutment for the F.S & K. However, I am not sure what bridge it was for.
Stewart Rhine replied:
Joe, Thanks for the reply. I'm leaving for the track weekend tomorrow so if you get any info on where the bridge was (or if there was one) you can tell me then. Each Fall I go to Phillips to check out the SR&RL progress. I usually stop at New Sharon to look around. I have been on the old through-truss road bridge (which is now closed to traffic) in town. I was told the line would have crossed the river west of that bridge. I can't see any abutments from there so if the line did cross the river, they must be down around the bend. I plan to look at the map that Allan Socea drew for Zack, showing where FS&K skirted the cemetary, etc. I'll walk that part if I can find it.
David, Thanks for your input. I have both SR&RL books and know of the photos you mentioned. I was told the the line would have crossed the Sandy River a little west of town. I would like to see a good map of the line with the existing town roads. That would show the grade crossings and bridges and help my understanding of where it went. As you said, it may not have crossed the Sandy River.
David Johnson replied:
Jones wrote that by mid December 1898, the 9.5 miles from Farmington to New Sharon had the grading and trestle work completed. Photos in Two Feet between the Rails, Vol. I seem to indicate that quite a bit of the work in Farmington may have been trestle work. Since no grade crossing were allowed at Bridge, Main, and High Streets in Farmington, the line may have been elevated through most of that area. That would account for the absence of any sign of the grade in Farmington at the present time. Abbott School in Farmington was where the alignment went through the tennis court and resulted in legal action for damages. In addition to those court documents, the acquisition of right-of-way should have resulted in filed documents at the courthouses. The legal descriptions on those documents along with USGS maps should allow the location of the line to be accurately mapped out. In addition to the line to New Sharon, Jones wrote that the 13 miles east of New Sharon had the right-of-way acquired and clearing and grubbing completed. Is there anybody up that way that has the time or interest to do courthouse research? The side view of the New Sharon bridge shows that at least the ties were laid on the bridge. Jones wrote that the first rails were received in July of 1898, but he doesn't say whether they went to the FS&K or perhaps to the W&W west of Weeks Mills. Moody in The Maine Two-Footers wrote that miles of rail were laid on the FS&K. Does anyone know if this is true?
James Patten replied:
It is my understanding that the Farmington trestle work seen in the photo on Two Feet Between the Rails (and possibly Two Feet to Tidewater is where McDonald's is today.
As for the top of fills being not very wide - well, they've had 100 plus or minus years of erosion that's probably worn away at them.
Mike Fox replied:
That would make sense James. McD's is lower than route 2 headed toward New Sharon. I think when that stretch of road was rebuilt in the 50's or 60's, what was left of the grade in town Farmington was erased. I can find sections of old highway roadbed between Farmington and New Sharon but no RR grade to speak of until you get into New Sharon. As for crossing the Sandy river, I have never read about a bridge being built there. But there must have been plans for one at least. And maybe some grading to get ready for it. If no stones were placed, it might be almost impossible to find now. Sandy River in the spring is violent. I know you have seen some of the pictures. not much would stay put with water like that.
Mike
Allan Fisher replied:
Member Gus Pratt (88 years old) visited today and says that the right of way behind the cemetery and the bridge abutments for the Sandy River bridge are easily visible. West and south of there hard to find anything.
Gus road in the cab of #24 the last week of regular train service on the F&M section of the SR&RL, and rode the cab of #18 on the scrap train.
ETSRRCo replied:
WOW he would have been my age when he did that. OOO what I would give to just SEE the 24. Anyway what do you all think would have happened to our beloved two footers if the FS&K had been built. One interesting view I had never thought of before was brought to my attention about a year ago. The three railroads would have become very profitable. The MEC would have moved in, took them over and probable standard gauged them and we wouldn't have anything left. It would have definitely changed the future of the two footers that's for sure.
Mike Fox replied:
If the FS&K would have been completed, it would have been a bridge route. Where they were headed had no industry to aid in income. Would have been a hard life I think.
petecosmob replied:
I was studying online map and photo sites and discovered something quite odd...
there are not one, but TWO WEEKS MILLS! (http://images/smiles/icon_eek.gif)Miles apart from each other, but if FS&K had been completed, each would have had a 2'er running through it! (http://images/smiles/icon_exclaim.gif)
What would that have done to passenger schedules? (http://images/smiles/icon_rolleyes.gif)
Would one town have changed it's name, or would the stop at the more northerly Weeks Mills be called something like "West New Sharon?"
One can only ponder!
(http://images/smiles/icon_smile.gif)Cosmo
Dana Deering replied:
No doubt the FS&K would have become an important bridge route but it could have opened up some industry along its proposed trackage. There was pulp mill at Farmington Falls (where an FS&K station was actually built) that would have provided a source for traffic in both directions. With the connection to Wiscasset and the waterfront, who knows? I think it would have been more profitable than the Wiscasset to Albion run.
Dana
Bill Sample replied:
Can you imagine seeing a FS&K train crossing the mighty Kennebec River on what would have been one of the more spectacular 2-footer bridges?
Time for some of our more imaginative artists out there to paint that scene, complete with a MeC train passing beneath.
ETSRRCo replied:
No question it would have been busier then the Albion route I personally think that Weeks Mills to Albion would have been abandoned. Think about it. If the FS&K had been built this would have made a direct connection between the forest lands of Franklin County with a deep water port. This would have made it possible to completely bypass the Maine Central. During the boom years of the SR&RL they hauled thousands of loads of freight (enough to fill 6,000 standard gauge cars in 1919) that probable would have been hauled down the FS&K to the WW&F to Wiscasset. This would have changed Wiscasset to. The port would have been much busier and would have to have been bigger. Now this is just my opinion on it but I think a pretty probable outcome. The FS&K wouldn't have really needed any industries on their line with all the traffic going between the SR&RL and the WW&F.
-Eric
Dana Deering replied:
Hey Guys,
I've been doing a lot of research about the "Old Star", the Mogul that eventually became the SR&RL #16, and what I have found leads me to believe that the FS&K and not the W&Q bought, or at least made attempts to buy, the locomotive and three flatcars from the defunct Laurel River & Hot Springs RR. There is anectdotal evidence that at least one of the flatcars was used to lay some rail on the FS&K. The locomotive was stored at Wiscasset for a time but when the FS&K bubble burst it went to the Portland Co. for storage. This was around 1897 and it was not until 1900 that the Sandy River scooped it up for a song. Can you imagine that Mogul rolling over the Kennebec River bridge with a freight bound for Wiscasset? Wow, what we just missed.
Speaking of the bridge it is my understanding that the WWF Railway Museum once owned the orignal drawings for the Kennebec River Bridge and they disappeared. Any idea what happened to them?
Dana
Stewart Rhine replied:
Mike, Joe and everyone, The WW&F team made the annual trip to Phillips again this Fall. This time Zack, Marcel, Eric and I spent more time looking around New Sharon and Farmington. We discovered a number of places where you can see the grade. Here's what we found:
(1)Go to the back of the cemetary at New Sharon. Go to the right corner and walk down over the hill about 50 feet. You will find the grade running through the woods along the back side of the cemetary. It continues North about 400 feet until it gets near where it crossed a town road. In this area the grade has been lost to regrading. We also tried following the grade going South from the cemetary but it goes into an area where new fill was pushed from the top of the hill covering the grade.
(2) Go to the Giffords Ice Cream store in Farmington. Park behind the store and walk North on the road towards the location of the former MCRR freight house. As the road begins to climb, look to your right. There is a newer building up on the hill. Where it's driveway comes out is where the grade crossed the road you are standing on. You can see part of the grade cut into the embankment below this new building. The grade runs South along side of the hill and goes behind the Cumberland Farms store. There is probably about 100 feet of the grade in the brush at this location. Note: that this is a correction from what I said before. The grade was NOT where the road is next to the McDonalds. Stand at the location where the grade comes out from the hillside and look North towards the freight house. You can see the top of the roof in the distance. You will see that the road is higher and another building has been built where the grade would have been. We do know that the railroad was being built South from this location but we do not know exactly where the track started. This is because the MCRR owned the land around the freight house and would not have allowed the FS&K to build on their land. The station lot would have extended south from the structure aways.
I hope this helps. Happy hunting and let me know if you guys find bridge abutments at the Sandy River. You may be able to see more now that the hardwoods are bare.
Stewart
Mike Fox replied:
My screen saver was just working and one of the photos on the screen was of Farmington Falls. Looked like the mill Dana had spoke of earlier along with the covered bridge that was right next to it. Anyone know of any photos out there of that? I am going to check Images of America to see if they have produced something for that area.
Mike
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MODERATORS NOTE:
Porter 2-8-0 for the FS&K/W&W has been converted from the pre-July 2008 WW&F Discussion Forum.
Some formatting may have been removed or modified from the original postings that appear quoted in this topic.
Information contained within this post may be superseded by more recent postings and conversations.
David Johnson wrote:
For the last 35 years I have wondered about the Porter 2-8-0 locomotive the was designed for the extension to Farmington. Moody wrote that a set of blueprints #9816 were prepared and dated December 5, 1901 for a 2-8-0, Class D-2-T-8, codeword Hatijo for the Franklin Construction Co. Since the only plausible use for such a locomotive would be line haul work from the Sandy River, the engines were never built. They were to have 33" drivers, 13x16" cylinders, 55,000lb total, with 48,000lb on the drivers and 29,500lb for the tender. Has anybody ever seen correspondence on the proposal or the blueprints or does anyone know where they might be located if they still exist? Other authors have been silent on this subject. I understand that Moody's photos may be in the DeGolyer library at SMU in Dallas. Is it possible that there a some Moody files there that may have information? The 13th edition of Porter's catalogue, which is several years later gives weights for that class as 57,000lb total, 50,000lb on the drivers, and the tender in working order at 38,000lb. The boiler pressure is 170lbs and the tractive effort is 11,850lbs. Those numbers are probably for a standard gauge loco and are very close to Moody's weights. An outside frame 24" gauge locomotive would be only slightly lighter since the difference in frame width and therefore cylinder width and axle length is about 6" less. An inside frame locomotive would be quite a bit lighter and would probably have less boiler pressure to keep the adhesion to a reasonable number. Does anyone know if these were to be outside framed?
petecosmob replied:
Well....where to start?
As I must categorize all my research into the "hobby: amature historian" catagory, I can only offer my musings as to what the locomotive would have looked like. I can picture it being quite a beast though! Imagine WW&F #6 with an extra set of drivers, OR #24 with an extra drive axle in leiu of a trailing truck, and we begin to get the picture!
I cannot imagine such a creature being built on anything other than an outside frame. Such eight-coupled outside -framed loco's were not unheard of, case in point; the 3' Mikes that still roam (in heards like the buffalo) out west. One could only imagine, FS&Kor no, what the WW&F would have done with such an engine had it been delivered. One thing's for certain, it would have been the largest (CMIIW) locomotive on a Maine 2'er.
Unfortunately, I don't have access to much as far as research materials go, just the same .www that everyone else has.
I DO seem to recal something about a 2' 2-8-0 or 2-6-2 or the like stored somewhere in NY State. I'll look that up in a bit and see if I can find it again.
Ciao,
Cosmo
petecosmob replied:
Ok,...yeah. I looked for the engine I was thinking of last night and FOUND IT! (http://images/smiles/icon_smile.gif) But then I got busy and forgot to post where it is! (http://images/smiles/icon_mad.gif)
I'm going to look it up again in a bit, but heres what I remember:
There's at least 2 large 2' guage engines hiding out in upstate NY! (http://images/smiles/icon_lol.gif) One, at least, is a 2-6-2, maybe both! They look big! (http://images/smiles/icon_eek.gif) Bigger than ol' 24!
I belive the location is Watertown NY.
I'll look it up again and post a link if I can.
Cosmo
petecosmob replied:
Ok, here's what I found:
(I tried posting the link, but I don't have enough postings yet for the website to let me post url/links! (http://images/smiles/icon_rolleyes.gif))
The engines in question are both 2-6-2's, which doesn't so much help with the subject of this thread, but it does make for interesting discussion.
The one pictured came from Washington State, the other from "Canal Village in Rome, NY."
While the arrangement isn't 2-8-0, it does give an idea what the size of such an engine might be.
A search of "Surviving steam locomotives in NY State"
yeilded the above info. Scroll down to the bottom of the page and look for 24" in the "Guage" column. (http://images/smiles/icon_wink.gif)
Cosmo
Glenn Christensen replied:
Hi Folks,
Rough drawings were created by Porter for the proposed WW&F 2-8-0. I know this because I have seen copies of them. I do not recall whether the drawings show the proposed locomotive as inside or outside framed. While an outside frame locomotive would seem logical, there were a number of inside frame designs that would have been suitable in 2', 30", and 3' gauges. One of these is shown in the back section of the original version of Moody's "Maine Two Footers".
For a look at some outside framed, 30" gauge Baldwin consols that would look at home in Maine, check out the Cuba section of Rob Dickinson's International Steam pages at URL:
http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/steam/ (http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/steam/)
For a look at some dandy (two-footable) 3' gauge, inside frame Vulcans, check out the Lawndale Rwy section at URL:
http://www.tarheelpress.com/index.html (http://www.tarheelpress.com/index.html)
I believe the most modern non-articulated 2' locomotive design from a US builder (Baldwin) may have been the fleet of Baldwin 2-8-2s built for the Scindia and Gwalior lines in India in 1948. I have a photo of one of these currently on display in Mumbai (Bombay), but don't know how to post it here. Interestingly, these locomotives were a modernized version of the 25 - 30" gauge 2-8-2s built for the "old Patagonian Express" in Argentina, which were themselves based upon the design for SR&RL #23. A number of the Patagonian locomotives survive in service to this day. All major dimensions for these locomotives were nearly identical - including the driving wheel base. (Picture a #23 with an extra pair of drivers.) The major difference was the piston valves (as opposed to slide valves) found on the later locomotives. Check out the attached URL for the Patagonian locos.
http://www.latrochita.org.ar/ (http://www.latrochita.org.ar/)
For some 30"gauge Baldwin 2-8-0s running today in Brazil, check out URL:
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Sparta/8579/ingles.htm (http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Sparta/8579/ingles.htm)
Best Regards,
Glenn
pockets replied:
Glenn,
Thanks for the links. For a Mt. Gretna fan those Brazilian 4-4-0's are really sweet.
Greg B.
ETSRRCo replied:
I know this is a little off topic but what railroad in Brazil was it that has locomotives very similar to the 6?
David Johnson replied:
Glenn,
Where did you see a copy of the drawing at and is it possible to get a copy made?
Stephen Hussar replied:
2-foot gauge 0-8-0 (Porter) -- some serious power here...
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-8/342468/twofootporter0-8-0-7304-b.jpg)
petecosmob replied:
Ok, yeah, size-wize verry similar to the ones in NY State!
Glenn Christensen replied:
Sorry David,
The drawing is owned by a private collector, who I have not been in touch with for a number of years.
Sincerely,
Glenn
ETSRRCo replied:
Got any specs on that 0-8-0? That would gives us an idea of what size the 2-8-0 might have been. (could help me make a drawing of what it might have looked like). One question. Around what year was this 2-8-0 discussed? O and one more. Are there any examples of outside frame Porters? I cant for the life of me remember EVER seeing an outside frame Porter. Being on the restoration team of a 3ft gauge Porter I have seen that book of the Porter catalogue and I do not remember outside frame locomotives. The 2-8-0 just might have been inside if it was built by Porter!
-Eric
Glenn Christensen replied:
Sorry I don't have the 0-8-0 specs, but the Porter serial number is 7304.
Assuming 20" tender wheels, the drivers look to be between 28 and 30" in diameter. Based on that dimension, the boiler would be about 42" in diameter. As they would have been contemporaries, I imagine the smaller details would have been similar to those found on WW&F #4.
The 2-8-0 drawings would have been drafted some time between 1900 and 1902. As for differences with the 0-8-0, slide valve rather than piston valve cylinders would be a good bet since piston valves weren't common until about 1920 or so. This would also date the 0-8-0 to 1920 or later
That should be enough to get you started. I'd be interested in seeing what you come up with.
Come to think of it, I don't recall even seeing any outside frame Porters either. But Alco, Vulcan, Glover and Davenport had them, so I can't imagine Porter not using them if desired.
Best Regards,
Glenn
David Johnson replied:
Eric,
The drawing for the 2-8-0 was dated Dec. 1901 or around the same time proposal were being received for the 2-4-4/0-4-4 passenger locos from Portland and Porter. Therefore the 2-8-0 would probably have been built around the same time as the #4 and let us call her #5 as that would probably have been her number if built. For an outside framed Porter of that time period and roughly same gauge, look at the Coronada #9 & #10 0-4-4 locos. These 20" gauge engines had 12"x14" cylinders and were built in 1898 & 1899. The 2-8-0 outside framed loco would have had the counterweights on the drivers and therefore the drivers would have looked like those on the #4 without the crank pin holes. The outside cranks would have had no counterweights. The boiler would have been an extended wagon top with either a 40" barrel and 46" butt or a 42" barrel and 48" butt. The front edge of the steam dome would have been at the top of the taper and the sand dome would have been centered on the bottom of the taper, with the bell at the front of the first course, behind the stack. This is based on photos of a Mexican 2-8-0 Porter built around 1903 with 12"x16" cylinders. The stack, smokebox and front would have been like those originally on the #4. The 2-8-0 would have had slide valves and the 13"x16" cylinders would have had the sides flattened for clearance like those on the WW&F #6 and the Coronada #9 & #10. The valve gear would have been Stephenson with the rear crosshead guide support and valve rod crank centered between the 1st & 2nd drivers. The pony truck would be 20" and the drivers were to be 33". The driver spacing would have been around 42" between the 1st & 2nd axles and between 36" and 39" for the others. The firebox would have hung behind the rear drivers with the rear frame extension being a bar probably 6" to 7" deep. Cylinders for steam brakes on the loco would have hung vertically just ahead of the rear beam of the loco and acted on a bell crank lever that pivoted between the front and middle of the firebox. Vacumn brake pots would have been located the same and it is more likely that is what the 2-8-0 would have had. Normally Porter would have provided a paneled wood cab, but looking at what was built on #4 and proposed by Portland, it is obvious that the railroad wanted a steel cab. Whether it would have been some sort of all weather cab or tender arrangement would be interesting to know. The tender and tank would have been about the same size as those on the WW&F #6 and it would have had a flared top flange, a tool box on the rear beam and probably 20" wheels on about a 42" wheelbase, again from the Mexican loco. Give her a Russian Iron boiler jacket, paint her gloss black, add a simple gold border around the side of the cab and the tender, add gold lettering and you're ready to go.
David Johnson replied:
Eric,
I forgot to say to run the main rod to the 2nd driver. Thinking about it, the axle spacing between the 1st & 2nd driver might be closer to 39" and 36" on the other driver spacing. That would make her a little more compact and would probably be more in line with a 2' gauge locomotive of that size. Also Porter built quite a number of outside framed locomotives, mostly for export. The first class of 2-8-2 locomotives on the IRCA were outside framed Porters. They also built some that way for plantation railroads.
ETSRRCo replied:
Well ok! I'll see what I can come up with. Do you have a picture of the Mexican 2-8-0? So what should I letter the locomotive? WW&F, W&Q or FCC?
ETSRRCo replied:
Ok first rough sketch! I did this in about 20 mins so it is anything BUT perfect. Let me know what you think is good and what needs to be changed. Want to have this right before I go to scale.
http://forums.railfan.net/Images//RRArt/WWF_2-8-0.jpg (http://forums.railfan.net/Images//RRArt/WWF_2-8-0.jpg)
pockets replied:
Eric,
I can't wait to see the finished product (http://images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif)
Greg B.
Dana Deering replied:
Eric,
That is a fantastic "rough sketch"! You have a talent, sir. Have you seen the tree quarter rear shot of #6 in front of the Wiscasset Car Shop? It's in Vol 5 (?) of Narrow Gauge in the Sheepscot Valley. Ever since I saw it, 6 being my favorite, I have thought it would make a great painting. Keep it up, and come visit us when you can!
Dana
petecosmob replied:
Would it be worth starting a new thread discussing possible locomotives that come close to No. 6 in size and appearance? If so, which catagory should it go under?
Cosmo
ETSRRCo replied:
Dana I am guessing you are referring to the FABULOUS picture of the 6 on page 67 of Vol 5. It is one of my favorite shots. I don't know if I can paint it but a pencil drawing I think I can do. Like the picture I did of the 10. (below) Ok so You like the first draft. I will do a small scaled drawing next.
-Eric
(http://forums.railfan.net/Images//RRArt/WWF.jpg)
pockets replied:
Nice, Eric. Very, very nice.
Greg B.
James Patten replied:
Discussions of new locomotives should go under Museum Discussion.
Dana Deering replied:
Eric,
I'll bet you could do a painting if you can do a drawing. I know you're a busy guy but I would sure like to see what you could come up with, at least starting with the drawing.
Dana
David Johnson replied:
Eric,
I just got around to getting back into the forum and saw your sketch of the 2-8-0. The Colorado Railroad Annual #11 is where I saw the photos of the 12"x16", 36" gauge 2-8-0 Porter. There was a small builders photo but the better shot is a 3/4 front shot of her out of service in the 1950s with the jacket and lagging missing. On your drawing the things that look like they need a little adjusting are:
The cab looks too tall for its width, it should be around 66" wide.
The firebox might need to be lengthened and maybe the extended wagon top should be slightly longer, say 6".
The boiler taper really did end at the middle of the sand box. That would seem to be a more difficult casting than needed.
The sand dome might be a little tall, but the steam dome looks right. Don't forget the slight taper to the domes.
Put a on the top extension of the tender tank sheets.
Dave
ETSRRCo replied:
Ok well this raises some questions. How far back does the firebox go? Does it extend out of the cab, all the way through the cab or does it have a deck? The top extension are there they just aren't flared. I just sketched in the 6s tender real quick. Like I said it took me all of 20 mins to do that sketch. I have the scale one in front of me right now but its not done. I need to know about the firebox.
-Eric
ETSRRCo replied:
Hows this?
(http://forums.railfan.net/Images//RRArt/WWF_2-8-0-2.jpg)
The front truck needs to be stretched more and I need more space between the cylinder and front driver. The wheel base of the 2-8-0 is actualy smaller then the 6!
-Eric
Locomotive112 replied:
Glenn Christensen wrote; I believe the most modern non-articulated 2' locomotive design from a US builder (Baldwin) may have been the fleet of Baldwin 2-8-2s built for the Scindia and Gwalior lines in India in 1948.
David Johnson wrote;Glenn, Where did you see a copy of the drawing at and is it possible to get a copy made?
Glenn Christensen then wrote; Sorry David, The drawing is owned by a private collector, who I have not been in touch with for a number of years. Sincerely, Glenn
Hello WW&F forum members, I am the aforementioned "private collector" That Glen so respectfully kept confidential in this link.
I bought the only set of Baldwin "Original Builder's Drawings" for the "Scindia State Railways" 2' gauge 2-8-2's of 1948 from the Central Railways of India's Gwalior Branch in 1997. These locomotives were referred to as NH/4 by the Gwalior railway. I attempted to buy all four of those locomotives in 1997 but I missed inquiring about them by about 2 years as three of them went to the scrapper, the other one Glenn Christensen found a photo of shown stuffed and mounted in an Indian park, to my great surprise as it was reported to me to have been cut up already by a very high ranking official in the Indian CR! The CR lost track of those locos after the scrapper purchased them and I think the Gwalior Royal family (who owns the RR and only lets the public use it) must have bought one back from Mr. Scrapper for the public's benefit. I even have the name of "Mr Scrapper" who bought those four locomotives in 1995 and he basically buys metal and cuts big pieces into small ones to sell as scrap, so that one locomotive surviving is miraculous! I did the best I could and at least purchased and saved the drawings.
If any of you want to build the most modern Baldwin 2'er ever built I will be making the drawings available to you can build one in a smaller scale or in full size if any of you would like to.
Copying and scanning those drawings is huge task, but I am planning to make them available scanned and on DVD. So if you've ever wanted to build a scale livesteamer and you are a two-foot gauge fan, (and you have some "fun money" saved), you will be able to get copies of that drawing set soon and the cost will be a bargain, probably about $300.00 for the set all scanned and onto a set of full DVD's.
The very photo that I was going to attach for our forum mebers was graciouly found and atached to his reply inthenext message, by owr own Stephen Hussar. Thanks Stephen for the heads up search, find, and post. I apprecaite it.
The locos (four of them) might have been painted "olive green" in this Baldwin builders photo. The cab was called a "Summer Cab" and you do get used to that sand large combo sand and steam dome after you look at it for a while. The steam dome does keep that sand hot and dry so it is very functional.
Hope you guys like the loco its my baby now and I sure do. I took me years to get the drawings for it and it was a huge effort in those early days of the internet. Sorry I missed out on the locomotives!
Loco112 , David, aka; "the Villian"
Stephen Hussar replied:
http://narrowmind.railfan.net/ (http://narrowmind.railfan.net/)
(http://narrowmind.railfan.net/282_Scindia%20State%20Railway.JPG)
David Johnson replied:
Now wouldn't that look great with three domes, a wood or boiler tube pilot, a bell, and a US styled cab. She would be just the thing to haul the heavy freight down to Wiscasset from Farmington or Quebec. She would also be lighter on her feet than the SR&RL #23.
Count me as interested in the drawings. They would be a nice compliment to the drawing set for the SR&RL #23 that Jenkins published and to the erection drawings for SR&RL #10 and #24 that have been available.
Dave
tomc replied:
Dave,
Where can one find the drawings for #24? I would like to get a copy.
Tom C. future owner of a 3 3/4 scale 24.
_________________
Later;
tom_srclry_com
David Johnson replied:
Tom,
I bought my copies quite a number of years ago from a guy up in the MA, RI, or somewhere in that area. They are erection drawings that were a redraw in 1 1/2" scale with an elevation drawing and a drawing with sections. I believe the guy that redrew and sold them was named Ted J. Stoutenburg or something close to that. The same drawings were in a Live Steam magazine in about 3/4" scale around 1980 to 1985. From the drawings that he did, you could tell that he was working from the original 2" scale drawings so those must exist somewhere, maybe Ed Bond.
I got my 2" scale erection drawings of #10 and #23 from Jenkins as well as the Two-Foot Cyclopedia of #23 drawing when he published those. As I recall half of the #23 detail drawings came from the Phillips Historical Society and the other half from elsewhere.
I'd like to build a 1/2 or 5/8 size version of one of them, but I can't seem to find time run my gas loco more than 3 or 4 times a year or move my steamer to the shop, so for now all I can do is dream. Good luck on your dreams and plans.
Dave
David Johnson replied:
Tom,
Try contacting Theodore J. Stoutenberg at (860) 482-7997. His address is Country Lane, New Hartford, CT 06057. Ted is listed as 68 years old.
Information from the drawing is as follows:
Erecting No. 9527
Class 10-18 1/4 D 35
original drawing by S. B. Clayton 5-16-1919
redrawn by T. J. Stoutenberg 3-1-1976
Scale 1 1/2"
data from collection of Ed Bond
Therefore I believe that Ed Bond has the original 2" scale erection drawings.
Dave
tomc replied:
thanks Dave i copied your info.
Tom C.
_________________
Later;
tom_srclry_com
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Update Again. I've assembled a FS&K folder-three ring binder and keep adding pages as I visit UMF Library. Can't seem to get much done during the summer season, but have managed to get thru 1897 and up to 3/31/1898. The railbed is all established from Farmington to New Sharon. During the winter of 1897-98 the granite was cut mostly from Cape Cod Hill in New Sharon and moved to the various trestle locations including the one we still see over Muddy Brook beside Route 2 in New Sharon. A Farmington Falls local character has told me he will take me to another trestle location along the route. Just a few sample postings: Farmington Chronicle, 3/17/1898, Farmington News-"At the office of the FS&KRR in this village we took notice of a sample of the steel rails to be used on the line. They are extra heavy for a narrow guage and every joint is fastened with six bolts, making the track very firm and smooth running." A contract for furnishing railroad ties was signed and work delivering those ties along the railbed is progressing according to the Chronicle 3/31/1898. Also a 2/24/1898 report noted: " A few days ago from ten to fifteen large teams were employed hauling granite from the Chesterville and Cape Cod quarries and distributing it all along the lines from Farmington to New Sharon for culverts and bridges. The great trestle which is to cross Central Bridge and Main Streets (near Little Blue school grounds), to be 1000 feet long has all been sawed out and framed this winter at Farmingon Falls. Before spring opens all the trestles will have been framed and be ready to set up, and as the snow disappears the new railroad will rapidly develop." Enthusiasm is rampant in the area during the spring of 1898 and lots of money is being spent. Exactly whose money is flying around is not clearly stated but I have not seen any ad selling shares as yet. Farmington voted some money, but stipulated it be paid when the first train ran on a schedule. I have discovered facts previously unpublished, at least in any sources I've seen, which I'll not include here. I'm still trying to get interested partners going on this project and hope someday a booklet will tell the real story of the FS&K. Probably I'm in the same boat Leonard Atwood was in 110 years ago.
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Glenn,
I recently started using a computer program called "Dragon Naturally Speaking 10.0". I bought it from Amazon.com for about $55. It is a text to speech program where you just sit and speak into a microphone and the text appears on the screen. It seems to work very well. I was wondering whether something like this might be of use to you in compiling your information about the Franklin, Somerset, and Kennebec. By the way, this posting was generated using the program; I never touched the keyboard except to hit the reply button, the preview button,and the post button.
John
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Hi John, Thanks for the info. Sounds pretty far out for a computer illerate senior, but would be a real advancement to the Columbus method of typing. This business of an old car guy doing railroad duty is very far fetched, but so far the volunteer engineers are way back in the caboose playin' cards. To have a novice's hand on the throttle following a gas lantern is cause for alarm down the track. I'm from the other team, a volunteer of the Stanley Museum in Kingfield, Maine. We are the competition, studying twin brothers FE & FO Stanley as they try to downsize steam power for use off the rails in 1897-98. In fact we have this great story of a race from Farmington to Kingfield between a SR&RL RR train and a Stanley Steamer. For details just email our historian, Jim Merrick, Jimmerrick@stanleymuseum.org . The fate of railroad development was already in the cards by 1897-98, but history takes a while. The $$$$ freight was slipping away early in the twentieth century and the way of life changed rapidly. Businesses no longer inventoried months in advance, and found truck deliveries could cut expenses. Today JIT (JUST IN TIME) is a given and no one keeps product on the shelf with dust on it. All that saves railroad in our world today is intermodal transportation of semi trailers cross country and government subsidies. Every other aspect of railroading is a side-line. It is interesting beyond belief to study these old newspapers with exciting news of the Klondike in Alaska, Mckinley as our president, the sinking of the Maine in Cuba, the anticipation of a new railroad connection to the outside world, right along with bankruptcy auction advertisements for the failure of the narrow gauge north of Farmington. We get to peek at history in the making, knowing the final score. Today we've taken another step as government intervenes with subsidies in the automobile industry. Is HISTORY repeating?
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Hi Glenn! While a comparison of railroad track maps today versus 80 years ago is very discouraging, I saw a chart just today showing that in terms of ton-miles, railroads in 2007 exceeded all previous years, including the years of World War II. The low point was during 1960. In fact, in terms of ton-miles, railroads exceed trucks.
A major part of today's freight traffic is the hauling of coal, particularly from the Powder River Basin in Wyoming/Montana, where the mainline is being expanded to four tracks in some places! According to wikipedia.com, "Presently more than eighty train loads of coal, which vary in size from 125 to 150 cars, are shipped from southern Powder River Basin mines each day."
As for cars and history repeating itself, I find it interesting that interest in electric cars is rising once again. Wait until you see the new Baker Electric SUV :).
Who knows, we may even see a return to steam cars, so it's good to see that the Stanley Museum is keeping track of the technology.
John
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I saw them today!!! Three framed Blueprints, scaled 300 feet to 1 inch, showing every Farmington landowner, about 50 of them, whose land was "Taken" for the Franklin, Somerset and Kennebec Railway right of way, dated March 1897. These are located in the office of a prominent Farmington businessman who has given me permission to release this information. They are in near perfect condition as he has had them framed for display. I asked if he knew of their origin. He carefully thought and said they were rolled and located in his father's belongings. This fellow is from a long line of prominent Farmington heritage and the actual path of custody is probably not completely known. What is shown give us the actual location of the rail bed from Farmington Village to Farmington Falls Village ending at the New Sharon Town Line. What a precious find! I will be happy to work with any WW&F Members who wish to view these as long as we understand we cannot expect this generous person to drop everything without notice. Just be reasonable.
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Hello Again, Yesterday three of us journeyed to Farmington and met at the Titcomb House, operated by the Farmington Historical Society. There, we were welcomed heartily by Nancy Porter, shown the original painting of the Farmington Falls Depot of the FS&K, and allowed to photocopy any of their archives on the FS&K or Leonard Atwood. If anyone wishes to purchase the Natalie Butler 1976 book, "Farmington Falls, Where Farmington Began 1776" which shows this painting of the Falls Station, as well as the best biography of Leonard Atwood I've seen, they have a few copies left at $15 each, a real bargain. We then proceeded to the office mentioned above to view the three blueprints. But something was different this time. One of the two mentioned above, who was with me, produced a FS&K Blueprint of his own which showed "Beal's Brook Crossing". This blueprint was done late Feb. 1897 while the three others were done March, 1897, but we were all quite sure all were done by the same person. This probably marked the first time all of these blueprints were together since the days of an FS&K Office in Farmington in the late 1890's. What a great reunion!
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Sounds like you are having luck in your search. Keep us posted with the news.
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HI All, Let's go back 112 years. I'll quote The Farmington Chronicle story dated Thursday, Oct. 7, 1897: The Chronicle Editor is being taken for a carriage ride along the newly opened route of the proposed railroad by Mr. Harry C. Russell, a clerk from the FS&K Office in Farmington. "We were driven down the river to the Falls Village. On the way down Mr. Russell pointed out the surveyed route- which, after crossing High Street just below the fair grounds (the trains will pass under the road at this point) crosses Blount"s (now Norton's) Brook and swings around back of Herman Corbett's buildings, and continues down to the Falls- all the way being about a quarter of a mile east of the traveled county road, and in sight most of the way. The deep gully, through which Blount's Brook runs, will be filled over a substantial stone bridge. # Arriving at the Falls we took the road at the Union Meeting House (turn to the left) which leads now towards Charles Hovey's house: and after driving perhaps forty (rods? gb) in the field owned by Thomas Croswell. At this point will be located the Falls passenger and freight depot; and here we found the ground broken up to be graded by the road machine. Continuing on, after quite a curve, we drove nearly due east, and soon came upon the road machine crew, and a short distance farther was a crew scraping. On the machine was Luther Curtis with eight powerful horses ahead of him- and they were making the dirt fly. Still farther along was Mr. Currier, the stone-worker, preparing low places and beds of brooks (Bragdon Brook and others) for reception of granite bridges or culverts. While ahead of them all is Leonard S. Keith and crew "bushing out" the four rod strip, moving trees and bushes. By the way, Mr. Keith has a novel way felling large trees; he fastens a tackle-and-fall in the treetop, the other end to the trunk of a distant tree, and pulls the tree over, roots and all, after which the tree is cut up into logs or sled- lengths and carted away. ------ After crossing Bragdon Brook, on the farm now owned and occupied by John Childs, (the Hosea Leighton farm) we could drive no farther- although the crews have removed trees, stumps and bushes clear through to Muddy Brook, on the Weeks Mills Road- so we drove along a woodroad and out into the main road by Mr. Childs' house, the main road from the Falls to New Sharon; thence home."
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Ok Now We'll jump ahead 112 years and 2 mos. My guide, Birchard Cook, Mason Rd. Farmington Falls, and I started out this morning at the former site of the Falls Depot and followed the FS&K railbed easterly as best we could toward New Sharon. We begin where the power line crosses Mason Rd. essentially in a private driveway which follows the railbed in a field. We bypass the house to the left and get to the back line of the field where the railbed would have turned hard left as shown clearly on the Paul Mills Blueprints. We are now following the edge of the field about parallel with Mason Rd. Soon the trail starts veering slightly away from the field but is easily followed by observing the ditches on each side of the railbed. A few hundred yards into the woods we encounter the first culvert with granite headers forming about a 1 X 1 X 2 channel for a small stream which is dammed up by beaver. My guide says he used to catch 20" trout here before the dam about 25 years ago. Onward we push and though unmarked, we have crossed the New Sharon Town Line. We emerge from hard walking and find ourselves out in the open and a long look ahead is a snowmobile trail right on the railbed with at least a mile view. Easy walking now and a big snowmobile bridge looms ahead. A 48' flatbed trailer with wheel assemblies removed forms the crossing of Bragdon Brook. What you see here is the new channel formed when the stream ice jammed in the 80's and cut a route to the right of the old channel leaving the backside of the granite bridge exposed . The original stream opening is 4 foot wide, 20 feet tall, and 50 feet wide. A beautiful sight and we can only imagine the work to build this trestle. I picked one particular base piece of granite on the upstream side, a block 2 X 2 X 5, which figures to 3360 pounds @ 168 pounds per cubic foot, the weight for granite as listed on a Google search. One top cover granite slab figures at 8064 pounds for a 18 inch X 8 foot X 4 foot chunk. And the upper cover figures 4703 pounds for a 18 inch X 28 inch X 8 foot block. Now these granite pieces came from Cape Cod Hill about 2 miles away from a quarry on the Smith Farm. We can only awe at the work this one trestle created. Remember no usual railroad equipment was used here. All this was done with manpower, horsepower, mulepower, block and tackle combined with brute strength. Now the big discovery of the day! My guide says "Look in the bottom of the stream under the granite blocks." There is the one foot square wooden timbers sawed at Mr. Atwood's Mill in Farmington Falls in 1897 and still doing their job holding up this whole trestle after 112 years. My guide says that was what they used to set the granite on under water. We wondered what type of wood this would be that would last this long. Well, now we must move on and leave this seldom seen wonder behind still easterly bound straight ahead and easy going. Another half mile and we encounter another snowmobile bridge over a much smaller stream. Not much of the granite cribbing is left for us to see. Probably a 10 foot drop to the stream below but highly obscured by brush filling the gorge, this one doesn't yield any good pictures. We proceed on a few more hundred yards straight ahead and suddenly the nice trail ends with the snowmobile trail making a hard right. We look ahead into the heavily wooded railbed and decide two old men have had enough. Much easier to follow the snowmobile trail and we can barely hear the traffic on busy Route 2 a half mile to our right. We emerge into a field by a saw mill just east of the Gage Farm and still a mile out of New Sharon and the well known Muddy Brook crossing. A cell phone call to my guide's wife and we welcome the ride into New Sharon for lunch. We then climb the Smith Rd., a left turn off the Cape Cod Hill Rd. and meet up with 2 generations of Smith's, one Jim Smith about 80+ years old and a real treat to talk with. He's just full of old tales and I don't begin to have the time to absorb this as I should. He says his grandfather, another Jim Smith, died in 1892 but left behind a diary covering the years 1870 to his death. This diary was typed by Mr. Smith's wife and is available for us to review at a later date through the New Sharon Historical Society. We viewed one of the quarries quickly and moved back to town. Now we find ourselves in the back of the town cemetery and find the old FS&K Railbed along the back section just above the Sandy River. This marks the end of the line as we know it today. The river crossing was never made. My guide and I tried to get into to Beal's Brook crossing area west of the Farmington Transfer Station Road but were unsuccessful today. We did find the railbed in Farmington behind the Shoe Shop which would be near the fairgrounds. A huge fill was made here of at least 25 feet to a small stream below. There must be a granite culvert down there somewhere. This would be the Blount's Brook crossing mentioned in the article above. A brief tour of the University parking lot which would have been on the end of the 1000 foot trestle near Cumberland Farms Store and the end of the day. 46 pictures in my computer, some of questionable value, but a great day reliving 112 years of history and more when we get back to that diary. BCNU, Glenn
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Glenn,
Great story. Any chance some of those pics could be posted and shared?
Duncan
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Yes, I have 46 pictures, some of which are useful. I would be happy to share them, but do not know how to post pictures on this site. Email me and I can send some individually. Glenn
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I second that, Duncan. Great story and thanks for sharing it! I've seen a number of old dams now breached, where you can look down into the stream and see the timbers that supported the whold structure. I'm always amazed by that. Not sure what they used for wood, maybe oak or chestnut before the blight. As long as the wood stays submerged in the silt it will last pretty much indefinitely. The Brooklyn Bridge piers were built on huge oak planked structures that were submerged in the river and sunk down to bedrock. Maybe they used chestnut when available since chestnut wood had a reputation for standing up to exposure to moisture, so much so that it was called "coffin wood", since it provided the occupant with the driest possible ride into eternity!
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That's a great story and interesting to follow on the old topographic map for the area (http://docs.unh.edu/ME/farm24ne.jpg). The map is 1924 and most of the locations mentioned are visible. The main site for the maps is http://docs.unh.edu/nhtopos/nhtopos.htm. It's interesting to follow the SR&RL, WW&F and others. Prepare for hours of entertainment, uh, historical investigative work.
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Glenn, please check your messages. I have sent my contact info as I can post them here, as long as the server I use keeps running.
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Actually, the better site for historic topos is:
http://historical.mytopo.com (http://historical.mytopo.com)
It has a wider area of coverage
It includes additional maps not found on the UNH site
Using it (and linking to it) helps the WW&F in that it keeps me employed :-)
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Ed, that's a much more comprehensive site for the old maps and the formatting is better, too.
Thanks for the tip.
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Glenn, Thanks for the post. I have only been to the trestle piers in New Sharon and walked the grade behind the cemetary. Your trip provides a nice description of other parts that are left, it makes me want to see more of the line.
Ed, Those are great maps. I've spent some quality time reviewing the ones showing the SR&RL and WW&F. Some of the maps were done in the 1920's and 30's so the railroads were still in place. I like how the WW&F is marked on the Albion map as (narrow gage) good stuff.
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Here are the first 4 pictures Glenn sent. I'll copy all info for each picture he has included.
Here we go.
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2006-11/1225939/FSK12209-22-A.JPG)
The new stream channel which was cut in the 1987 ice jam leaving the backside of the old granite culvert exposed. The overhead is a '48 foot flatbed trailer placed for a snowmobile bridge.
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2006-11/1225939/FSK12209-23-A.JPG)
The upstream side of the original granite culvert and the new channel to the right. We get a good look at the granite work involved. That lower left block measures 2X2X5 and weighs 3360 #.
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2006-11/1225939/FSK12209-31-A.JPG)
Not a great shot but this shows those wood timbers 1X1X? holding up the whole granite culvert. These were sawed in Farmington Falls in 1897 by Mr. Atwood's water powered mill, and appear unchanged 112 years later. What type of wood is unknown, but to remain solid underwater that long is amazing.
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2006-11/1225939/FSK12209-32-A.JPG)
Looking downstream through the original 4X20X50 opening. Just barely shows the granite ceiling blocks. I measured one at 1.5X4X8 which would weigh 8064#.
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Great pictures. The stone masons did beautiful work. Amazing that the culverts are in such good shape, when you consider that they were abandoned shortly after completion. The view of the back of the bridge abutment is really something. It's got to be sturdy if it survived freshets and floods. It's too bad that trains never ran through there ... it makes you think of what it may have been like.
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Here are some more.
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2006-11/1225939/FSK1-A.JPG)
Taken in the field just off Mason Rd. in the Falls looking westbound on the railbed. The edge of the field is the raised portion of the old railbed and the top of the picture would be where that hard right turn shown on the Mills Blueprints would then take you across the field, across Mason Rd. (Then called Weeks Mills Rd) past the Depot and on to Farmington. The old maps are confusing as this road and one parallel to it 4+ miles ahead in New Sharon were both called Weeks Mills Road. One of these trees has barbed wire embedded in more than a foot.
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2006-11/1225939/FSK12209-3-A.JPG)
Looking eastbound after the railbed leaves the field area. It is hard to see here, but maybe clearer if you readers go back to the Farmington Chronicle article and remember how this four rod strip (64 feet) was cleared ripping trees and roots up leaving workable soil to be moved into the middle with ditches on each side. That is the only way to follow to old roadbed looking for the raised portion between two ditches.
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2006-11/1225939/FSK12209-4-A.JPG)
My guide, Birchard Cook, standing on the raised railbed to give you readers an idea of how the walking is if you should attempt this. We are headed eastbound toward New Sharon but are still on the Farmington town side.
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2006-11/1225939/FSK12209-6-A.JPG)
Still slogging eastbound, lots of swailgrass, better have good boots on, and we are now approaching the first little stream and some granite to observe. Not quite to the unmarked New Sharon yet.
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2006-11/1225939/FSK8-A.JPG)
The first granite culvert we encountered at about the Farmington/New Sharon Town Line, though unmarked. This is a small stream that was dammed by beaver about 25 years ago, but we can still see some of the granite work of Mr Currier, the stone worker, as mentioned in the Farmington Chronicle story of 10/7/1897.
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2006-11/1225939/FSK9-A.JPG)
A close up of one block about 1.5X2.5X4. Not a lot of effort was made to smooth up the edges when this was cut either on Cape Cod Hill in New Sharon, or maybe Chesterville Hill which was closer to this location. I can't remember the name of the high wheeled hauler used to move heavy granite pieces. Somehow the big slabs were suspended between the wheels for the mile or two journey from quarry to destination. This project must have been a real boon to the area as lots of man and horse power was needed.
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2006-11/1225939/FSK12209-10-A.JPG)
The upstream side of the culvert and the beaver dam. My guide says he used to catch large trout here before the dam was built.
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2006-11/1225939/FSK17-A.JPG)
The downstream side. These granite pieces are not light and were all handled manually. Remember granite weighs 168 pounds per cubic foot and even these small culverts were a real challenge. The workmanship still looks pretty good after 112 years of weathering.
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Glenn, the reason they put the wood in the stream bed was to prevent erosion. I have seen it in several bridges elsewhere in the state. And if the wood remains underwater, it will not rot. They have pulled old growth logs out of mill ponds that were cut over 100 years ago with no damage to the wood.
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Let's move on eastbound in the Town of New Sharon, but still about 3 miles from the familiar Muddy Brook Crossing.
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2006-11/1225939/FSK12209-18-A.JPG)
We break out of the previous undergrowth onto this nice straight skidder/snowmobile trail eastbound with at least a mile view and probably two. This whole area was lumbered a few years ago and the old railbed was completely rebuilt for yarding logs. All wash outs were filled and no regrowth has occurred on the bed as snowmobile drags have kept it in nice shape.
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2006-11/1225939/FSK13-A.JPG)
Taken in the exact same spot but looking westbound at all the growth on the railbed where we just came from, probably at a property line so the lumbering ceased.
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2006-11/1225939/FSK12209-19-A.JPG)
The snowmobile trail sign pointing toward New Sharon and a fork toward Industry (Allen's Mills/Clearwater lake). This would be a great way to travel this winter as this trail runs about 2 miles of the FS&K Railbed right here.
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2006-11/1225939/FSK12209-20-A.JPG)
Here we are at Bragdon Brook again and the eastbound view of the snowmobile bridge which was made from a 48 foot flatbed trailer. Look over the bridge and see the clear sailing ahead for a long distance. Go back and review those great shots of this granite bridge Mike put on this site before.
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Now we leave the woods portion of the FS&K railbed and jump past the Muddy Brook Crossing into New Sharon Village. Turn at the blinking light off Route 2 and follow old Main St which now dead ends at Muddy Brook because the old Route 2 bridge which is just downstream from the FS&K Crossing has been deemed unsafe. As we pass the town cemetery on the left take the second entrance and follow to the back, right beside the Sandy River.
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2006-11/1225939/FSK12209-39-A.JPG)
A little hard to see, but the railbed from Muddy Brook is coming into town here with the Sandy River just to the left.
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2006-11/1225939/FSK12209-40-A.JPG)
This is eastbound right on the railbed with the Sandy River just showing to the right.
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2006-11/1225939/FSK12209-41-A.JPG)
I'm standing where the rail bed just kinda peters out looking westbound. Just behind me, the Sandy River bends more easterly and presumably the FS&K would have crossed straight behind me. New Sharon residents and businessmen were sure excited about their new railroad in 1897-98. But, alas, it was not to be.
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Not on the FS&K but pertaining to Mikes post ... If you walk south on the WW&F grade about 1/3 of a mile from Sheepscot Station you will come to where the railroad crossed the brook. There are 4 wooden sub stringers in the water. Originally there was a wooden box culvert but it was washed out in 1936. The timbers, installed in 1894 survived and are in good shape. They are under the foot bridge that Eric built a few years ago. It's worth a walk down there to see them.
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When I was railroading here in Pennsylvania for a living, an extremely heavy and lengthy fall rainstorm washed away the cinder embankment behind one abutment of a 20-foot bridge across a creek. In making the repairs, we discovered wooden timbers providing the base for the abutments and for the waterway beneath the bridge. The line had been built in 1858, and the timbers were still in good shape 130 years later! The only modernization we could document was when the wooden bridge structure was replaced with steel in 1896. At some point, though, concrete headers were added to the original stone facings to increase the height above the water by about a foot.
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Now here's a piece of the FS&K Railbed that I had never seen before right near the Farmington Fairgrounds. On High St. turn beside the old shoe shop and follow around back to a large set of buildings which houses a waste disposal facility now. This is a public way to access some trailer residences in back.
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2006-11/1225939/FSK12209-43-A.JPG)
Looking westbound over the Blount's Brook fill mentioned in the 10/7/1897 Farmington Chronicle article. Those trees line the edge of the deep ravine on each side.
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2006-11/1225939/FSK44-A.JPG)
The steep embankment which is over the stone bridge below probably more than 25 feet down.
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2006-11/1225939/FSK12209-45-A.JPG)
Shows farther down the ravine and Blount's Brook below. This ravine shows nicely on the topo map of Farmington which was linked to our discussion by Ed Lecuyer.
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2006-11/1225939/FSK12209-42-A.JPG)
Now this is the one that haunts me to no end. I look at this eastbound shot taken sitting just over the Blount's Brook Crossing and then look at a good blowup of Ed's Farmington topo map. I now realize we were less than a 1/3 mile from the Cascade Brook Crossing which can't be far from what we see here. Evidentially my guide hadn't been fishing here. I'm headed back right soon for a peek.
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Thanks Mike for posting these pix for all to see. I hope we all gain from their use. There are at least other two crossings that I did not get to. One is Beal's Brook, which the original blue print survives and I have seen, located about half way from Farmington to the Falls. The other shows on the topo maps in the mile stretch of New Sharon we did not get into between the end of the railbed/snowmobile trail and Weeks Mills Rd., New Sharon. Don't know yet how difficult access to either is. I do think some of us can get a peek at Cascade Brook Crossing if it still exists. It should not be far from Davis Rd. or maybe just down a ways from Blount's Brook Crossing. All for another day, but we sure had fun with this. BCNU, Glenn Byron, Smithfield, ME.
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Glenn,
Great pics. Thanks for sharing. I wish I was a bit closer and could view those areas first hand. Sounds like you had an enjoyable time hiking the ROW.
Duncan
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Glenn, looking at Google earth, I can clearly see the roadbed from your last photo. It goes through the trees, across the brook then crosses a power line. Looks like after that it is hard to find, but then I just picked it up again in the falls and followed it all the way to the Muddy Brook Bridge in New Sharon. I had looked before but your research and directions pointed me in the right direction.
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A couple more intown Shots Glenn passed along.
"Two final pictures perhaps of questionable value.
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2006-11/1225939/FSK46-A.JPG)
This photo shows what might be the approach to the 1000 foot Wooden Trestle over Main St. Farmington. We are standing in the University of Maine Farmington parking lot and looking Eastbound. Lots of change has been done in this neighborhood and what you see might be real or not. If you look at the high bank that had to be navigated to get a ROW through here, this is in the right place and is headed in the right direction. This is the exact location of the Little Blue School that griped heavily about the encroachment of the railway on their playground. FS&K surveyors had to get access to the lower end of SR&RL tracks to link the two narrow gauge lines together and the trestle was promised to keep the trains away from the Main Street traffic below.
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2006-11/1225939/FSK47-A.JPG)
This photo is just to give another point of reference. We are standing right under where the trestle was located looking North toward the UMF building and Downtown Farmington. The Blueprint we have seen clearly shows that the trestle crossed just north of the intersection of Lower Main Street and Bridge Street, both of which still exist about in their same location as 1898. The blueprint also shows two possible routes eastbound after the trestle which tells us all issues were not settled in March 1897 when it was made.
I want to especially make public thank you's to my guide, Birchard Cook and his wife, Dottie for helping make this possible. Birchard has spent most of his 70+ years working and playing in the FS&K neighborhood. His stories about this area added much to the discussion and added immensely to our knowledge of this failed venture. Glenn Byron, Smithfield, ME."
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Can anyone point me, and possibly other readers, to some history of the FS&K?
Thanks!
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It was history before it ever ran!
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It was history before it ever ran!
Indeed. I should perhaps ask for "pre-history". Where it was to run from and to, how much got built, why it failed before even getting started, etc.
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It would be nice to have a map that shows where grading was done with notes on the cuts, fills, culverts and trestles that were built. The map could show the rail that was put down on the Farmington end but I guess we'll never know just how far it went. Harry told me that the new track didn't get much past the 1/2 mile point. IIRC a flat car and some construction equipment was shipped to Farmington. Wonder how the equipment got past the freight house to the new track. Would be a real find to have a picture of a construction train on the FS&K.
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That map idea is a good one Stewart. As far as the construction trains go they were most likely horse drawn. I've done some research that strongly suggests that it was Leonard Atwood and the FS&K that tried to buy the Laurel River and Hot Springs Mogul, and not the W & Q. Atwood had gained some control of the W&Q/WWF and I think his initial plan was to use the mogul to build from Weeks Mills to the river crossing at Waterville and on to Farmington. I think he chose this direction because of the hold up in working out a connection with the Sandy River. And just as you pointed out, without the SR connection there was no good way to utilize a locomotive for construction. So my guess is that horses would have been employed. Turns out he couldn't come up with the money for the bridge across the Kennebec River. (The museum had the plans for the bridge once upon a time but they were lost somehow.)
Remember, there were three flatcars and at least one excursion car included in the Mogul package and I have found one sentence that claims that one of those flatcars was used in construction of the FS&K on the Farmington end. Maybe some of those old newspaper accounts can fill in some of these blanks. Anyway, the locomotive languished in Wiscasset and when the whole FS&K venture collapsed it went into storage at the Portland Company and was later purchased by the Sandy River.
Leonard Atwood was quite a character. He was a genius who was easily bored. He invented the first oil pipeline, steam powered elevator, a fishing reel, and the flaps used on airplane wings to slow a plane when coming in for a landing, among other things. He had a knack for selling his ideas just as he was poised to make a fortune on them. He owned a pupl mill at Farmington Falls and that may have been his impetus to contruct the FS&K. Too bad he "almosted but not quited" with the FS&K. Imagine a 2 footer running from the mountains to the sea! No wonder we romantics lament its stillbirth.
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Here's a map of the UME;F campus (http://athletics.umf.maine.edu/General_Athletic_Information/campus_map_fields.gif) to help folks relate to the last two photos in the parking lot. (There are several; it's the one on the right, near the pond and park. The north-facing view is of the Roberts Learning Center (the building labeled 10a on the map).
A thousand-foot long trestle seems rather long to extend over just one street. Would bridging Front Street as well have been the reason? Here's a Google Maps link (http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&t=h&ll=44.665803,-70.147169&spn=0.002247,0.006142&z=18) for reference.
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Glenn has been doing more research again. This is a nice find. Here are the pics and his description.
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2006-11/1225939/FarmingtonFallsDepot.jpg)
This is a photograph of the original painting of the Farmington Falls Depot building of the FS&K Railway done by Leonard Keith which hangs in the Titcomb House on High Street in Farmington. The photo was taken 1-5-10 by Nancy Porter, the curator of the Farmington Historical Society and sent to me today. The only other picture I have seen of this is on page 19 of Natalie Butler's 1976 book titled "The Falls: Where Farmington Maine, Began in 1776. I donated a copy of this to the WW&F Museum. No real photo of the depot has yet surfaced that I have seen, though I am hopeful that soon we may uncover one. Let's take a moment and examine exactly how all this was laid out. In the picture we see the Union Meeting House just to the left of the Depot so this places us, the viewer, standing in what is now Mason Road looking directly into the Falls Village. Remember the Farmington Chronicle article from 10/7/1897 where we rode along with the editor and he said they turned left at the Union Meeting House and rode about forty rods to where the Falls Passenger and Freight Depot will be located. Now we know that the Depot was located on the Falls side of the tracks(Which Never Were There!). Many have questioned whether this building was ever really built. Farmington Chronicle 10/21/1897: "Engineer (Leonard) Keith has set the foundations for the freight depot at the Falls Village, and the building will at once be erected, and used for storage purposes at present". Just three weeks later The Farmington Chronicle reports on 11/11/1897: "The Freight Depot at the Falls, previously mentioned, is now up, boarded and shingled. It will be used for the present in storing the company's tools and machines. We can't imagine the Chronicle didn't have a picture to publish. Well at least we know the building was really done. Now, whether this painting was done by Engineer Leonard Keith is not known by me yet. No date appears on the painting that I have seen. Anyway readers, Birchard Cook and I started our trek along the FS&K Right of Way right here and went toward New Sharon which is to the left. Thanks to Nancy Porter and the Farmington Historical Society for allowing us a glimpse back more than 112 years at what almost was.
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2006-11/1225939/FarmingtonFallsUnionMtngHouse1.jpg)
This is just to get everyone who is interested, situated in the big town of Farmington Falls. This is now called The Union Baptist Church and looks almost identical today as it did in the days of the FS&K. The road to the Falls Depot, Mason Rd., is to the left of this building. We are standing in Main Street ,Route 41. The new highway Route 2&27 passes just behind the Meeting House and now bypasses most of Farmington Falls Village
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2006-11/1225939/FarmingtonFallsMtngHouse2.jpg)
I was past this building today and you cannot see any difference from this 1976 photo. Mason Road is where the photo was taken and passes just to the left of this building. The FS&K Farmington Falls Depot would have been in the upper left corner out of sight.
Glenn Byron
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Here's the Google Maps view (http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&t=h&ll=44.624358,-70.076916&spn=0.004498,0.008197&z=17) of the area described. The church and right-of-way should be easy to pick out.
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WOW! That Google Earth stuff sure adds to this discussion. The hard bend in the FS&K Railbed shows more clearly than if you are there. OK, now study Farmington Falls Village closely. That bridge on Route 41 over the Sandy River was a wooden covered bridge in 1897, and Leonard Atwood's water powered saw mill was right here. Those timbers under the granite culverts and trestles were sawed in the fall of 1897. During the winter of 1897-98 the bridge timbers for the whole Farmington to New Sharon project were sawed and fitted at Mr. Atwoods Mill for assembly during 1898. We have pictures of the Muddy Brook Trestle in New Sharon all ready for rail as well as the 1000 foot long trestle over Main Street in Farmington. I don't have the dates yet when these were completed. Farmington Falls was a bustling community at the end of the 19th century, with Leonard Atwood one of the key players. Thanks so much for the Google link. With our little mouse, today we can ride The FS&K Railway that Mr. Atwood dreamed about but never made it happen. Stay Tuned, Glenn Byron
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Thanks for the UMF map. It sure helps to see where the FS&K was trying to go. I've only seen the Farmington Chronicle reference to the 1000 foot trestle, so that's why I've used the number. If you start where that bank I showed in the parking lot picture, it would take a lot of trestle to get over Main St. The high bank had to be navigated anyway, so I suppose the trestle would gradually slope downward. No reference I have seen yet mentions bridging Front Street and though I haven't measured it, I'm quite sure the 1000 foot trestle would fall far short. Another look at those great Blueprints should show us exactly how this went. Nancy Porter (Farmington Historical Society Curator) just sent me a Chronicle clip not seen by me previously that gives us a peek at how close the FS&K really came to linking up with the SR&RL. How's that for a tease? Building #8 on the UMF map is the Mantor Library, and inside lurks the answers to most FS&K questions. We need more help with healthy eyes inside that building scanning those old microfilms to get this story out in the open. More Later, Glenn
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I always thought the trestle approached from the right side of the map, where is says freshman parking. Going somewhere between the baseball field and the Tennis court. Cumbies is at the intersection of Front St. and Route 4, and I thought this is where it was supposed to go through.
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Mike, I think you are right. Zack, Marcel and I have walked around there a number of times and there is a grade running behind the Cumberland Farms and Giffords store. It starts where the health center drive goes off the road that goes up to the freight house. The grade runs south about 300 feet along the hillside and then disappears when it gets to the corner by the Cumberland Farm store. If you follow the grade going north it leads right towards the former Maine Central freight shed. I have always figured that this is the FS&K grade. I hope Glenns research will confirm that. It's great that so much new information has come out about this "almost but not quited" railroad.
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Some thought on the FS&K.
In reading what Dana said regarding the efforts of Atwood and the FS&K it focuses my attention on an alternative perspective that I’ve been kicking around in my head for a while. This is not a “definite” truth in my mind, but instead a plausible theory based on common practices of the time that many rail fans do not consider.
As much as I hate to think of it this way, I’m not convinced that the FS&K was ever anything more than a scheme to shake down the Maine Central. These schemes were quite common in New England during the railroad building boom from 1870- 1890 except most of them were done in southern New England, and they were done about ten years earlier than this particular course of events. (So Attwood and the FS&K may have been too late to the game to succeed) The idea was to propose a railroad that created a threat to an already established line and to get them to buy out the backers of the proposed “threat” in order to make it go away. This worked well if the established line was wealthy, and had some small amount of competition to worry about. Usually the people being paid off were the big investors from other places while the local investors were all taken for a ride after being whipped into a frenzy of railroad fever by the schemers. So unlike the local investors that got sucked into these things, the people behind these scheme could not care less if the line ever was built. They just wanted to blackmail the dominant local railroad into a buy-out, and then they would walk away with a bunch of cash in their pockets, preferably with as little up-front investment as possible.
I agree that Attwood was a smart guy. I also think that the FS&K and the creation of the proposed 2 foot gauge system may have just been a scheme to threaten MCRR and get them to pay off the backers of the FS&K to make the “problem” go away. As two foot enthusiasts, we tend to look at this whole thing as a fond “what if”, and as a serious effort. We never stop to think that this was possibly just a big shake down.
Look at this scenario. The original plan was to get the Maine Central’s attention by creating a two foot gauge through-rout that made their lines irrelevant by diverting much of the Franklin county traffic away from the standard gauge. In those days the 2 foot gauge would have been a great prize for a Canadian Pacific, or some other large railroad to take over once it was completed. This would be very much in the minds of the Maine Central’s management. At first the plan succeeded in getting their attention but the plan was soon out flanked. (Legally) Then, Atwood began to build the line but not all the way. He did not heavily invest in railroad equipment like locomotives or a bunch of cars. He did just enough to keep the pressure on the Maine Central. He was able to overcome some of the legal issues regarding the connection in Farmington but the Maine Central kept the pressure on him too and made the project more difficult and costly. Attwood had to up the ante. Many people forget that as the FS&K evolved, it took on several increasingly desperate phases. The first and most well known plan was to simply connect the WW&F with the SR&RL, which was the only plan that made any real sense. As the scheme began to unravel, Attwood and his investors began to look elsewhere to keep the appearance of the threat up. They looked first at connections with the line from Rumford, and later at connections with the Somerset through the proposed Maine Midland RR instead of the WW&F connection. All of these could appear like increasingly desperate attempts to get the MCRR to bite on a buy-out, and as an attempt to re-route the Franklin county traffic to any line but the MCRR. None of these other plans made any sense as an operational railroad with the exception of the original plan of connecting the narrow gauge lines. Eventually, all came to an end as nothing made any sense anymore and the financial backers in Philadelphia(?) and Attwood decided to move on to better prospects. Who knows, perhaps they were in fact paid off in some way. The financial backers for this project have never really been that clear to me though it appears that there were some big shots involved possibly from Phiadelphia?
Has anyone done any real research on who these backers were and what other things they had invested in?
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To add to Eric said, I recall in one of Ellis Walker's Musings a discussion about the reason the Maine Central bought the SR&RL and B&SR was to prevent a link up of all the railroads from happening. Of course the MEC didn't buy the railroads until about the teens as I recall, a good 15 or so years later.
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But the Maine Cenrtal did buy out the Somersett and the Portland and Rumford falls lines by the early 1900's. (Shortly after the buiding of the lines to New Sharon) Both of those two lines were in play with the later versions of the Attwood plan. By buying those two roads out, the FS&K to Rumford and the Maine Midland RR to Noridgwak schemes were both all done as they had no place to connect with MCRR compeditors.
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Does anyone knew when the rails from Farmington to New Sharon were removed? (Year)
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Hi, Great to see so many others getting into the frey. How about moving some of this to a new thread not buried on a page 2 where so few find it? I can't urge you all enough to see those Blueprints first hand. Glenn
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Eric, If you are asking about the MCRR, I remember reading somewhere that the line into Farmington was removed in the early 1980's. It was after the branch and yard trackage was removed that the station was moved towards the river and enlarged.
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I've long wondered how close Leonard Atwood and Co. got to see his dream railroad connect with The Sandy River and Rangely Lakes rails in The Maine Central Railroad Yard at Front Street, Farmington. Nancy Porter, Curator of The Farmington Historical Society, shared this great article from The Farmington Chronicle dated October 11, 1900. Headline: RAILROAD MATTERS Subheadline: Workmen Laying Ties on the Roadbed of the FS&K Railway, and the Iron is Expected Later.# "Frank Pooler and two other men have been laying ties on the FS&K Railway, and Tuesday were laying ties and filling the back of the Russell Bros.-Estes Co's lower mill, so as to bring the ties on a level with those of The Sandy River Railroad on the trestle at that point. By consent, also, of Supt. Beal of The Sandy River Railroad, as we are informed on good authority, Mr. Pooler laid a frog and rail on the trestle-which is just south of their yard limit- so that when the rails should be laid along the whole line of The FS&K a connection would be made there with The Sandy River road. # Mr. Pooler says that after he laid the frog and rail he saw several men with Supt. Beal on the trestle talking, and later he noticed that some twenty feet of The Sandy River Railroad's track north from the frog had been taken up and a "bunter" set in the roadbed. It is said that this was done by order of the chief engineer of The Maine Central Railroad who was advised so to do by that railroad's attorney. He said that The FS&K had no right to make any attempt to connect with The Sandy River or any other railroad here till permission to do so had been granted by the proper officers- the railroad commissioners- after the customary legal proceedings had been gone through with. # The Franklin, Somerset & Kennebec's roadbed is graded, and trestles and culverts built from Farmington to New Sharon, and now the ties are being laid; in the near future, it is hoped, the rails will be put down. But it will be readily seen that the occasion for a "marry war" is an event not likely to occur for some time, if ever."
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Now, I'm not too adept here to see this picture clearly. Maybe some of our track layers can get in here to show us non railroad types exactly what this scene entailed. I've been enjoying the great discussion elsewhere on this forum about the Tasmanian Railroad and the great pictures included. We know The SR&RL had tracks south of the MCRR Yard into the lumber yard below and used them for car storage. If I'm getting the picture correctly, these unused rails was where The FS&K was trying mate up with. Also included in this article is the term "Trestle". This gives me the picture that maybe that 1000 foot trestle really did cross Front Street and into the lumber yard. What do you think?
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More from Glenn Today.
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2006-11/1225939/FSKTrestleFarmington1.jpg)
"Hi All, There has been quite a lot of discussion lately about the trestle shown in this photo. This particular copy was included in a booklet titled " Maine Sesquicentennial, 1820-1970, Franklin County Edition". It is also included in many other sources including the one I frequently refer to, "The Falls: Where Farmington Began In 1776" by Ben and Natalie Butler on page 18. The copy included with this email is mislabeled as Sandy River, Waterville-Wiscasset R. R. Bridge, Farmington, Never Used, (Courtesy, Ben Butler). The same photo is labeled in the Butler book as; Trestle Built On Intervale Road For The "Railroad That Never Ran" Built in Farmington in 1890's. Building shown was the "Little Blue" School dormitory, now the parking area for the Learning Center, UMF. Exactly what we see here is hard to determine as we are looking at only a small portion of what we are told was a 1000' structure overall. Hopefully some other views of this will surface. We can, however, learn from what we have here. First, the location. I think those pictures Mike Fox placed on the Discussion Forum that I took at UMF Learning Center are just about right in locating this trestle and the dirt mound shown is about right to form the approach. Second, Estimating Height and Width. If the clearance is about 12' as shown, then about 60' of the trestle is all that appears in this picture, and the width of the span between the uprights is about 24'. I don't think that is Main Street below as it appears untraveled, looks like it goes to the right of the building. In all other pictures of Little Blue I've seen, Main Street would be to the left of the building, meaning that the Main Street crossing would be to the left of this picture and on another portion of the trestle. I also think the major artery into downtown Farmington would be much wider than shown. Anyway, we have this shot so far, and a place to begin more discussion from. Glenn Byron"
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Photo Courtesy of Allan Socea
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2006-11/1225939/FSK.jpg)
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It is also interesting to note the tellegraph poles in some of these pictures that look like they follow the FS&K ROW. The SR&RL had them on thier line but the WW&F did not. If this had ever been built to a connestion in Waterville, I would bet that the WW&F would have gotten tellegraph too. Another interesting "what if" - Perhaps John McNamara should ask for some "stimulus money" for this project. ;D
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It is also interesting to note the tellegraph poles in some of these pictures that look like they follow the FS&K ROW. The SR&RL had them on thier line but the WW&F did not. If this had ever been built to a connestion in Waterville, I would bet that the WW&F would have gotten tellegraph too. Another interesting "what if" - Perhaps John McNamara should ask for some "stimulus money" for this project. ;D
Eric,
Thanks for the thought, but I'm getting too old (and/or lazy) to climb poles.
-John
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Great photos. At first glance, the bracing (or whatever) on the left of the smaller photo looked like a modern-day international cross-buck!
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Hi all, Here is a copy of an Allan Socea email giving us the exact wording from The Railroad Commissioners Report regarding this trestle: Glenn
According the the Maine Railroad Commission the first two FS&K Crossing in
Farmington were as follows.
#1 A way in Farmington leading from Main Street to West Farmington, and
known as Bridge Street.
Bridge Street; The railroad shall pass over Bridge Street and shall be
constructed so as to give a passageway for horses, teams and carriages
having a clear width of at least thirty (30) feet and a clear way for
travelers on foot, at least eight ( 8 ) feet wide and a clear head room of not
less than fourteen (14) feet.
#2 A way in Farmington leading from Farmington center Village to Farmington
Falls, known as main Street being Southerly of and near the "Little Blue"
Main Street; The Railroad shall pass over Maine Street and shall be so
constructed as to give a way of travel having a clear height or head room of
at least fourteen (14) feet and a clear width not less than thirty (30)
feet. Allan
Just to clarify, Bridge Street today is known as Main Street or Intervale Rd. and Main St. or Lower Main St. is called Prescott St. Glenn
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Update: With the dimensions given in the Allan Socea email from The Railroad Commissioners Report to go by, let's change the overhead height on the small trestle photo to 14 feet, the width of the opening to about 45 feet, and the total length shown as about 70 feet. Now, some big news! I've found the answer to the Front Street question as relating to this trestle crossing it or not as discussed previously on this Forum. Go to Ed Lecuyer's Topo map site posted 12/03/09 on The FS&K Railbed Fall 1897 topic and bring up Farmington Quadrangle, 1924 Edition. Front Street, from the intersection of Intervale Road to Depot Street, did not exist when this map was made. That means the portion we see today from The Farmer's Union to Gifford's Ice Cream was not there in FS&K days, so Front Street was not an issue. Let's think a little about that great construction photo Mike Fox put on here provided by Allan Socea. Which end of the 1000 foot trestle is shown? A clue we might be able to go by is the fairly low embankment shown on the left side and that house shown up top. The Topo Map shows one contour line (Contour Interval = 20 Feet) from the valley floor of the Sandy River to the MCRR Yard. A look at that steep embankment from the UMF Parking Lot and the adjacent athletic field shows two contour lines, which makes that climb more than 20 feet but less than 40 feet. It seems to me that as I look at the picture, the trestle is rising to the right or eastbound. I think the house on the hill may be on the left side of Main Street as you go up Abbott Hill into downtown Farmington. Seems like the west end is shown. At least we know it was taken while leaves were still on, and probably late summer 1898. My research at UMF Library ends thus far in May 1898, so I'm hoping my next visit will get me to the building of this trestle.
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Hi All, Our guide to all the great pictures and stories along the FS&K Railway route, Burchard Cook, died suddenly last Saturday. While we grieve along with his family, we relish the memories he was allowed time to share with us, and cherish especially the day last December we shared Burchard's companionship for a peek back in time. Our knowledge of this failed, nearly forgotten venture expanded greatly because of his generosity. Thank You, Burchard Cook, RIP. Glenn Byron, Smithfield, ME.
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(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2006-11/1225939/FSK%20Trestle%20FSK%20Trestle%204.jpg)
From Glenn
" Hi All, I'm trying something new, attaching a picture. Let's see what happens. Allan Socea found this great second picture of the 1000 foot FS&K Trestle under construction in Farmington. I went into UMF Library digging for the exact dates of construction. Farmington Chronicle 7/28/1898: ---and it is expected another crew will begin next Monday (8/1/1898 gb) to build the trestle which extends from near Fewacres across Bridge and Main Streets to the hill at the rear of Frank Grounder's house. On 10/20/1898 we find another Farmington Chronicle entry: ---The work on the long trestle near Little Blue is nearly completed and work on the High Street Bridge is begun. I'm quite sure we are looking eastbound on the trestle and, at least on the original, there is a girl about halfway across. Some of the upright supports are not installed yet, but the leaves are still clearly on the trees. My digging in the library uncovered lots of grumbling by local landowners while this construction was going on, and a court case started. Alongside the land damage case, labor unrest among the workers is starting to rear it's ugly head. All is not well on the FS&K in the fall of 1898. Stay tuned. Glenn"
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Mike, you need to make it bigger.
Tom C.
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All better now.
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Wow! Very impressive!
-John
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I’m surprised that John did not enviously mention the presence of the telegraph poles.
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Thanks Mike. can you make it one size larger?
Tom C.
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I’m surprised that John did not enviously mention the presence of the telegraph poles.
I don't think I'm too envious of that one on the far right! :)
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I wunder how far the tellegraph line went along the ROW? It is a bit funny that it was built but the RR was not. (Although some say the rails were set down in some locations) Perhaps some the lines on the poles were rented out or maybe they were all RR?
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Here is another photo passed along by Glenn.
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2006-11/1225939/FSKTrestleFarmington1_640x480_1.jpg)
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It will be interesting to see if anyone can find out how long this bridge survived. Was it taken down as soon as the FS&K project died (whenever that was) or did it just become a local eyesore for years to come.
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All such answers are to be found at UMF Library in The Farmington Chronicle microflms. Thus far I am at the end of 1898 in my research. I have news articles copied from The Farmington Historical Society files that show activity still going on early fall 1900, though not much in a positive direction. We need more healthy, interested eyes scanning those hard to read pages. I'm betting Little Blue School owners were more than willing to help dismantle that "eyesore" in their front yard. After working over the trestle photo above, I'm getting more convinced that this is Bridge Street as we see the two passageways described in the Maine Railroad Commissioners description previously shown in this Forum, one wide for regular traffic and the one to the right for foot travelers. I am also pretty well convinced that the Butlers who said that is Little Blue in the background are mistaken. I just found a picture of Little Blue that also shows the next house up Abbott Hill and that house is what is shown. I'm thinking Little Blue is further to the right along the 1000 foot trestle and not shown. Fewacres as used in The Farmington Chronicle is really two words, Few Acres, and is the home of Mr. Abbott, the headmaster of Little Blue. It was located on the left side of Abbott Hill just past the intersection of Bridge and Main Streets. Few Acres roof is clearly shown above the trestle in the Allan Socea side view photo. I'm told there is a plaque in the MD Building yard located where this house stood. Search "Few Acres Farmington Maine" on Ebay for postcards showing this house, along with several views of Little Blue.
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Glenn,
If one looks closely to the left of the larger passageway there does appear to be a smaller passageway like the one to the right side. Perhaps there were two passageways for foot traffic?
Duncan
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Glenn,
Have you seen the "Images of America" series of small historical handbooks? They are published by Arcadia, an imprint of Tempus Publishing, Inc. They are 128 pages long and sell for $19.99.
The reason I mention them is that I would like to see one entitled "The Franklin, Somerset & Kennebec" by Glenn Byron at my local bookstore (or on the web).
John
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I'd like to find that building, if it still stands. I have done some before and after shots, and it is remarkable at what is still the same now, as it was then. Maybe I'll have to take a ride that way or pleasure. I usually pass through while working and don't have the time or proper vehicle for the small side trips I would like to take.
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I mentioned this diary last Dec. in a post titled "FS&K Railbed 1897". Now I've had a chance to see it and you can also. The New Sharon Library has this 5 volume set available to view during open hours. Thanks to Mrs. Jim Smith who typed all of a precious peek into daily life in New Sharon more than a century ago. Most days ended for Mr. James W. Smith by recording in his journal the happenings, not only around the farm, but also within the community. He was much more than just a farmer, juggling duties as assessor, treasurer, selectman, and prominent citizen. I talked with 80+ year old Jim Smith at the family farm on Smith Rd., a left turn off Cape Cod Hill Rd., probably about a mile out of New Sharon Village. He never knew his grandfather, James W. Smith, but has this great family record to feel like he was there with him. Jim's late wife carefully transcribed each page for us to also relive those times. Twenty years from 1870 to 1890 is covered in detail not found in any history book. I devoured all I could absorb in a couple hour visit and will be back for more soon. New Sharon Library is located on the now dead end Main St., just past the cemetary, a left turn on Library St. to an old farm house. The open hours are Tues. 4-7, Thurs. 10-1, and Sat. 10-1. Go in, sit down, and have a visit with the Smith's of New Sharon.
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I have been asked by The Smithfield Maine Historical Society to make a presentation of my research to date regarding the FS&K Railway, especially focusing on Smithfield as we were one of the towns it was to pass through. This presentation will take place after the regular SMHS meeting August 21,which starts at 9:30 Saturday morning at The Smithfield Grange Hall. This is the first time I have presented what has essentially been here on the Discussion Forum for the last couple years. As we have found out along the way, lots of information about this failed venture has never been out and about very well. What sources there are, seem to be hit and miss, with each putting a little of the story forward, but no one source telling the whole tale. Most people in the Northern Belgrade Lakes Region have no clue that a narrow gauge railroad "Almost, but not quited" their neighborhood. In addition, many have not heard of our museum in Alna that is keeping the WW&F dream alive. My main goal is to put some information out for discussion, make resources available, such as our museum, for further research, perhaps uncover some hidden tid bit in a family history, and maybe even find other individuals interested in digging into this 110+ year old piece of our history. I would welcome anyone with an interest to attend. Glenn Byron, Smithfield, Maine
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I honestly wish I could be there.
I would strongly recommenced video taping the presentation!
Perhaps CD/DVD copies could be sold at the museum? ;)
I would DEFINITELY buy one! ;D
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Had a great time last Sat. presenting my FS&K research to the Smithfield Historical Society. It was very well received and opened some eyes about this forgotten project. One local, Steve Foster, gave me a copy of a 1944 deed by Sewall Foster from the north side of Hampshire Hill on the Rome/ Mercer line. Though it does not mention the FS&K, the property is located as mentioned in the Maine Railroad Commissioner's Report-1900, as to a roadway crossing on the Sewall Foster land. Now, Steve Foster can take me to the exact place the FS&K was scheduled to be! I'm real hopeful more of this kind of thing will surface. So very little information is recorded about FS&K activities between the Sandy River in New Sharon and the Kennebec River at Waterville, we must dig for every tidbit. I'm hoping other organizations would like to see the presentation and maybe pry out something long forgotten. This Wed. evening at 7pm there is a presentation about The Somerset Railroad in Norridgewock at the brick building next to the grange hall on Rt. 2.
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Went for a ride earlier this week with Steve Foster, a Rome/Mercer landowner who grew up in the area. First we explored what is now called The Rome Road which connects Route 2 from Mercer to Route 225 and 27 in Rome. Steve owns large tracts in this area and has hunted and worked the land extensively so he is vey familiar with the topography. After listening to me pry for information about possible FS&K routes around Hampshire Hill and then, given the original surveyed road crossings shown in the 1900 Railroad Commissioner's Report, Steve had a good idea where the railbed was projected to be. He knew several of the landmarks mentioned and showed me much of the route. Off highway we went, through locked gates and over old abandoned roads to great vistas where we could follow the valley below with eye popping views showing the only possible way the surveyers could get a rail line through this very rugged terrain. It was certainly no straight line through here, but sure would have been a pretty ride on Mr. Atwood's dream train. Even talked to a surveyer who was working one of Steve's lines to see if he had ever seen any FS&K references, but to no avail. We must assume everything was deed recorded when land was taken, but hard evidence so far is fleeting. More exploring ensued as Steve took me to his birth area between Rome Village and Smithfield on the North side of Foss Hill, again off road but right where the FS&K had to go. We are getting close now to some real answers. Stay tuned.
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WOW! New Sharonites sure were adept at keeping a journal, and you can visit this one right on your computer. In case you are not familiar with The Maine Memory Network, you've missed a great site. This diary is from about 1855 to 1866-7 by an interesting fellow who was very involved in his church, town and the nation. I couldn't leave it once I started. Lots of insight here about life 150 years ago. Bet you didn't know that "cankers and rash" was a big killer of the young. Be there as a small town guy takes a train trip when trains were just beginning. One single page finds a New Sharon resident starving to death in a Confederate prison, General Lee surrenders, and President Lincoln killed. http://www.mainememory.net/bin/Detail?ln=9240
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Those Hours can show you how we are facing the same issues today as 150 years ago. On one page he was voting "up or down" on the Aroostook Railroad just as we recently had to accept taxpayer liability for keeping this thing going. I wonder what Cankers & Rash or "Canker Rash" was killing kids in the 1850's would be called today. I asked my RN partner and she had no idea. Do you have any suggestions what this disease was? A visit to this site will keep you captivated. And yes, Mr. J.W.Smith from the other New Sharon diary is mentioned often.
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Can´ker rash`
1. (Med.) A form of scarlet fever characterized by ulcerated or putrid sore throat.
Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, published 1913 by C. & G. Merriam Co. Aren't these computers helpful? Today we take antibiotics as an everyday item. In the 1800's Scarlet Fever was a killer, especially of the young.
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New Experience- Played on the WW&F Chat Room for the first time last nite and met an interesting playmate, Bill Fortier. My usual Thursday nite Steam Team Session at The Stanley Museum was cancelled, so tuned in, just he and I were hanging out. Among our several topics Bill introduced me to The Southern New England Railroad, a never finished venture between Providence, RI and Palmer, MA. In so many ways this story matches the FS&K tale of woe. Bill told me of a book, "Titanic Railroad" by Larry Lowenthal that tells the story of this failed venture. I am under the impression it was to be a narrow gauge line, or maybe even just a ruse to get The Grand Trunk interested and involved. I'll be looking for this book, maybe at a library, as the ones I've found so far are about $40. Looks like both of the railways were sunk before they started for whatever reason, and I'd like to know more. Does anyone know if a print out can be done on The Chat Room stuff? We discussed several items and my memory misses a bunch of details. Try the Thurs. night Chat Room Session, fun even if you can't type fast.
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I have that book, Titanic Railroad - The Southern New England. It is not small. A printout would be substantial in size. It's quite the informative book about a full size railroad that never was, at least not completely so. Many, if not most, of the earthworks and bridge piers/abutments were made and ready for rail. Unfortunately, as the story goes, the railroad was sunk when the top guy, who was returning from a fundraising trip to Europe on the Titanic, was also sunk. Interesting book and interesting that, like the WW&F, many of the earthworks, remains of rights-of-way and some bridge abutments/piers can still be found where the rr was intended to be. The book is readily available on Amazon.com in both new and used condition for around $30 to $33.
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To clarify: the Southern New England was (to be) a standard gauge line. Earthwork was 100% completed in Mass, much less so in Rhode Island. No rail was laid nor any steelwork constructed. Also, while the Grand Trunk president was, in fact killed on the Titanic, construction of the SNE did not begin until AFTER the tragedy. No one to this day is sure why this happened - and why the construction paused for a number of years.
(Many more details can be found in Lowenthal's "Titanic Railroad" which is a fascinating read... which I keep right next to my copy of Moody's "The Maine Two Footers".)
The chat room does not have any sort of archive function; once the text scrolls off the screen, it's gone for good.
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Thanks Ed, We'd better pay attention to remembering details when playing on the Chat Room. Lots of fun anyway. I'll look further for a copy of this book. Sounds great. Meanwhile, I found a great review titled "The Railroad That Sank with the Titanic" http://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?11,1114101
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Ahh yes. I've oft thought of the FS&K as "The SNE of the North" ;) but from a much earlier date than the Titanic.
While the reason is not stated quite so directly in Lowenthal's volume, (which I am currently enmired in at this time,) the reason for the stoppage of work less than a year after it began was more to do with economics and back-room politics than anything else. The man who perished on the ill-fated liner was Charles Melville Hayes, and he was succeeded by a man named Chamberlain who had acquaintance with Charles S. Mellen of New Haven, B&M and Maine Central fame some time before he (Chamberlain) rose to control the GT. Seems they were close to making a deal for traffic rights over each other's lines just about the time Chamberlain called a halt to the SNE's construction.
The reasons for the subsequent continuation of construction nearly a year later was purely political! While Mellen's reign as the Rail Lord of New England was rife with scandal, the GT sought to distance itself from such and set out to complete the project rather than be drug down with Mellen and the New Haven et all.
It was WW1 and subsequently the Great Depression that finally killed the project.
I have, as I've been reading, been out to many sites along the SNE, as well as it's twin cousin the Hampden RR which also started from Palmer but went toward Springfield to parallel the B&A and funnel traffic from Western New England over the NH and the B&M into North Station. This line was made 100% complete and even had an inspection train run over it's entire length before it was abandoned, never to turn a wheel of revenue. The similarities and coincidences of the two lines are amazing, and it is easy to see why even today one is mistook for the other.
Case in point, I was walking the old OOS Central Mass line in search of the spot where the Hampden would have crossed it and encountered a woman leading a girl on horseback along the track. She referred to the Hampden RR as "The Grand Trunk," even after I had told her the GT/SNE was in the next valley over toward Brimfield.
It has been an amazing journey of discovery finding and photographing the old concrete monuments to engineering and faded dreams. They are truly remnants (as Mr Lowenthal himself put it,) of a lost civilization like unto the pyramids.
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Oh, there is one other thing I wanted to make note of, a correction actually.
Apparently some steelwork was completed, not just in road bridges crossing the ROW, but also in some of the RR bridges on the Southbridge segment of the line. These were short spans across narrow streets, but completing the spans was instrumental in facilitating the work trains constructing the fills through that town.
Also, it turns out the reviewer in the link posted above is an old buddy of mine! He was my instructor in "C" School for Submarine Electronics in Groton.
Small world!
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The F&SK perished because of the Maine Central not letting them get the right plot of land for a Sandy River joint station, right? ???
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The Maine Central told the Sandy River RR, if they ran trains or continued with the construction of the FS&K, the MEC would kick the SRRR out of the Farmington yard. Since the MEC got there first, they owned it and SRRR was essentially a tenant. But it was the only connection they had with the world, so it would have doomed the SRRR. Farmington's not exactly flat, so it wouldn't have been easy to bypass the MEC yard to go south. The FS&K connection to the WW&F would have had to have been finished quickly in order to survive, but they still had a number of bridges to build including a large one over the Kennebec river.
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Update: The Maine State Library has a copy of "Titanic Railroad" in Augusta. It is available (After I return it) at any UM Library, ( I picked it up at UMF where most FS&K lore reposes)). It can also be done by mail, I think, especially if your town does not have a library. Wouldn't be surprised if other librarys also had a copy, although I think the original printing sold out quickly.
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I just finished reading mine,... (wow...) if anyone ( within an easy hour of CT) wants to borrow it. ;)
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Wow! I've just finished "Titanic Railroad" and will be returning it to the library shortly. I could study details here forever. Anyone who enjoys railroad history, and you wouldn't be reading this if you didn't, will be imursed in the extent of Mr. Lowenthal's research, all well footnoted and documented. Though many details of this failed venture remain a mystery, this volume examines every aspect of the facts surrounding The SNE. My mind frequently wandered to The FS&K and found comparisons galore. Only the difference in landscape and populace seperate the two stories. I can't wait to find newspaper accounts of the MCRR threat noted by James P. above. One passage by Mr. Lowenthall really stood the hair up on my neck: Pg. 82 (About Mr. Hays, President of the GT, death on the Titanic). "Hays was not one of the celebrities who crowned the passenger list of the Titanic---------Many of the darlings of the society columns were essentially idlers, or beyond their productive years, so their deaths, however poignant, had surprisingly little impact." Imagine a Titanic decendant reading that! Find a copy, you'll not put it down.
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A field trip this beautiful Monday morning with two other true FS&K enthusiasts resulted in locating the actual Eastern end location of the 1000' trestle over Bridge, Main Streets and onto the high bank on the High Street side in Farmington. Seems when you get in the neighborhood, the local folks can still tell you a bunch. Will need to return in the fall with special equipment to plot the Western end more specifically. Actual landforms are still right there to observe, even with all the construction over the 110 year period. One of our group went into the office of the prominent Farmington person where the actual blueprints hang proudly on the wall, and sketched landowners and other pertinent information. This allowed the three of us to follow the roadbed right on location across High Street, around the Franklin County Fairgrounds, thru the current Farmington Town Garage, (Yes,nearby the roadbed is visable) along a steep valley wall and across the big fill previously discussed toward the Cascade Brook crossing. ( Which we didn't get to today). A major discovery of a, previously unseen by me, deep cut behind the power station still shows a 100+' wide at the top, 16' at bottom, probably 40' deep and more than 200 yards long trench that one can only imagine how a train could manage in a heavy snow year. Shovelers would have had to terrace several levels to get the snow cleared. Farmington Chronicle, March 2, 1898: "One feature has been demonstrated during the record breaking snow storms of the past month, and that is, along the whole route from here (Farmington) to New Sharon, there is only one place where the locality of the track affords a very bad drifting of snow and the proper means can easily be taken to prevent that." Now, we looked closely at this cut, and you can also. There is no way to get this cleared "EASILY". An eye opening day in Farmington along the FS&K.
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Any pics Glenn? Every time I am through the area, I don't have time to stop. Always on the clock with the GPS locator telling HQ my location.
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I have three of the trench, but I'm not happy with them as I was standing on a fill the power line had put in to cross . Somehow the trench doesn't show very well. If anyone is in the Farmington neighborhood on Route 2 beside Good Times Unlimited, the RV Dealer, the main power line has a substation with a good road to it. Just walk past the substation to the top of the second hill, a 5 minute walk. The huge trench is very visible and you can see what a problem snow removal would have been. The posts here last winter making Alna Station ready for a charter run early, told of the frustrations as snow piled upon snow. There was no place to put it. Well they never had to face the problem, but those mule and oxen teams along with many strong backs sure did to make it. Our visit was an eye opener and a tick catcher. Most had visitors chowing down when we got home.
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Glenn, about how far is this from the big fill that used to be in Farmington? This could be where the fill came from. And I like to look at this type of find from another perspective. There was no heavy equipment back then, so this was all done by hand. Picks, shovels, wheelbarrows and dump carts. Oh, and dynamite. Worked great on removing stubborn stumps and loosening hard pan.
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Mike, I've asked another member to consider your question and hope he will post his answer as he is more familiar. Your perspective on the situation is perfect. There was no construction train, there was no huge equipment. Just farmers with their teams after haying was done. Lots of strong backs manually working each problem by whatever method Oxen, Mules, Horses, Laborers AND dynamite could provide. This one trench must have been a massive undertaking. Please post the pictures even though they are not the best. I encourage any FS&K enthusiast to personally visit this site. Reading these posts can't begin to paint the picture, but for members far away it may be the only way you have. When large railroads built right of way, the situation was much different. Farmington Chronicle, Sept. 1,1898 "Work on the Franklin Somerset & Kennebec railway is progressing well. Two hundred and twelve men are now at work between this village (Farmington) and the Falls. It is hoped the road bed will be in order and rails laid from this station in time for the county fair. The long trestle is, however, no small task to complete." Now, That was some serious wishing!!!
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Ok. Finally got some pictures. Having trouble with my original photo host (village Photos) so I am trying a new one out. Hopefully it works out.
(http://i1132.photobucket.com/albums/m573/miketrainnut/WWandF%20Ry/FSKFarmPwrLine2.jpg)
(http://i1132.photobucket.com/albums/m573/miketrainnut/WWandF%20Ry/FSKFarmPwrLine1.jpg)
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Peter Barney's book on two foot Prairies for BHI Publications has a proposal drawing of a 2-8-0 that was sent to the WW&F. He claims it was a proposal by Baldwin, not Porter. The domes have a Porterish look to them.
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WOW!!! This is great stuff. If we could only impose / match this view with the Farmington Historical Society painting of the Farmington Falls Station posted previously in FS&K topics, where locals were " Waiting for a train". We could help fulfill the Leanord Atwood dream of connecting the SR&RLRR and the WW&F for a trip from the Mountains to the Sea. He built 9 miles of railbed, much of which exists today, and all we are lacking is a locomotive to take Mr. Atwood for the ride, only 110 years after the fact. Let's get these posts together for historians to work with. Previously, we've only had a little rail, some horse drawn rail equipment for construction, and slight references to equipment aquisition. This is progress.
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Where was this roadbed built, and was it on the original FS&K row?
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Alright, to bump this back up, I came across a locomotive that looks similar to the Porter that Eric drew...
http://steamlocomotive.info/vlocomotive.cfm?Display=1485
Alright, undersized cab and lack of wagon-top boiler aside, that Jung is a close hitter for those 2-8-0s...
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Hello,
This may well have been discovered by some of you here already, by I just found this on google books:
http://books.google.com/books?id=jJg-AQAAMAAJ&pg=PA125&lpg=PA120&ots=D6tVjDUtVO&focus=viewport&dq=franklin+somerset+and+kennebec+railroad&output=html_text
Hope it works. Starts near the bottom of this page (129) and continues for some length. Fascinating account of the FS&K trying to condemn MEC's station grounds to gain access to SRRR's north yard- which was their southern most legal location. Apparently the commissioners' deciding with MEC spelled the end for Leonard Atwood's dream.
FS&K already had permission to cross MEC and the somerset rr in Oakland- from a report earlier that same summer.
Hope this works for all...
Jason
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Jason,
By coincidence I picked up Clinton Thurlow's third book at Ed's house last night. He (Thurlow) mentioned what you informed us about this issue.
Dave
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Wow! The Railway Commissioners Report recently listed shows the battle royal between Mr. Atwood's FS&K and MCRR went head to head from here, October 1900 to the decision July 1901. Why, when he lost access in the MCRR yard, Mr. Atwood didn't skirt around Farmington and join SR&RL north of town is a mystery. Already a huge expenditure had been used in developing the line to New Sharon. Surely Little Blue School would have been happy to be rid of that pesky 1000' trestle.
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Well, actually Pike Industries does. We are setting up a portable asphalt plant in New Sharon, and as near as I can figure, the grade stakes pictured are within feet of the original grade, possibly running in the same direction.
(http://i1132.photobucket.com/albums/m573/miketrainnut/WWandF%20Ry/FSampK_zpsf5fa6246.jpg)
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Mike, do you think you could talk your bosses into extending the grade a few miles eastbound? ;)
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Well I was slightly off in my grade estimation. I am standing on the grade when I took the photo, and the grade goes slightly to the right, about in the direction of the rear tire on the bucket loader, and behind the cab of the grader. A nice broad grade was found in the woods.
Mike
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Looky what I uncovered!!!!!!!!!!!!
Two little comments,
I will post more later, but be patient please I have many irons in the fire.
The entirety will be put on google maps hopefully by the end of spring!!
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2861/32489374394_e19d396d98_c.jpg)
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Nice, looking forward to seeing the contents thereof!
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Wow! Where did it come from?
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Looking forward to this - thanks for all the work you put into this, Paul - it's certainly appreciated!
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I love these things!!
I am going to keep the sources close to my chest for now until I have more information and a better presentation to put out there. It took some searching though!!
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CAN'T wait to see this!
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(https://c1.staticflickr.com/4/3798/33367083425_f4fc975e05_n.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/SQx2pP)IMG_4678 (https://flic.kr/p/SQx2pP) by Paul Levesque (https://www.flickr.com/photos/134218704@N08/), on Flickr
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Oakland and Waterville RY Crossing the FSK
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/638/33239438831_3807735dbd_n.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/SDfP7X)IMG_4620 (https://flic.kr/p/SDfP7X) by Paul Levesque (https://www.flickr.com/photos/134218704@N08/), on Flickr
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The planned station facility at Waterville was remarkably subdued, wasn't it? I wonder if they had any yard planned...
Jason
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Yup, it was. There are no sidings drawn on the plan so it is just the preliminary survey. I have to wonder if they would either have a freight interchange point where the FSK and MEC split just north of the station and passenger interchange would be handled by the streetcars, or if freight cars would be handled over the electric railway which was in the planning stages around the same time.
The path through Oakland is a little interesting too, which is forthcoming soon. I am in NJ this week for work (I am located in central ME) so updates will be slow, and the plans I found are incomplete so I have to chase down a couple more leads to see if I can get the rest of them. Also, I am inclined to believe that there is a rough sketch or description of the course from Western Ave in Waterville to the Kennebec River. If you look at google earth the land west of Messalonskee Stream from at least Kennedy Memorial Drive (Routes 137/11) to the MEC / Messalonskee Stream crossing was mostly farm land and undeveloped until the 1930's-1950's. The most significant buildings were probably located at the bridge over the stream on Western Avenue.
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HERE YOU GO!!
Part 1 of 2 for Kennebec County.
Let me know if you have problems viewing the map.
Some adjustments will need to be made on the west end of the map.
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1vXj0BK14ebll_6-gh3lfURBhBig&usp=sharing
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It didn't seem to work for me. It brought me to google maps, but no FS&K...
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It is working for me (using Chrome). Wow, quite a deviation south to Oakland, but I'm sure that makes sense based on the terrain. Very interesting stuff!
Thanks Paul for sharing this.
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It does not work on my mobile device, so I will have to look at it on my computer.
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It didn't work on my iPad. All it did was bring me to my house. It did, however, work on my PC. I agree with Bill on the jog south.
Dave
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Worked fine for me. Thanks.
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A little conjecture, for the sake of discussion.
Had the FS&K made the connection between the W&Q and the Sandy River, and we had our Two Foot Empire, just how successful would the venture have been?
Any railroad venture must connect produce to market. Let's look at that potential connection offered by the FS&K.
Of course the entire idea was that Wiscasset provided a direct link to market via transshipment to commercial marine vessels. In the early years of the Franklin County connection scheme, that would have been coastal schooners, connecting to Portland, Boston, New York, Philadelphia, Baltimore, etc.
There's my first question: how easy was it to make said arrangements? If you had a mill in Franklin County, and wanted to ship finished lumber to Baltimore via the narrow gauge and Wiscasset, was it a lot of trouble to arrange it? Did a maritime connection at Wiscasset automatically mean you had a broader market for your product?
Next question: produce. Presumably the principal haul for the two foot empire would have been based on the timber available in Franklin County. Sure enough, there was plenty of other business, but it would seem lumber was backbone of the Sandy River's success. It seems to me that the FS&K would not have increased the quantity of Franklin County's output or lengthened the use of the Sandy River system to move it. Hence, the empire might have lasted about the same length of time as the SR&RL and WW&F actually did.
It's tantalizing to think that maybe a positive answer to the first question- that the maritime connection at Wiscasset opened new and expansive markets- would have led to a better answer for the second question- that the empire may have outlasted real history. But then- if it were that successful, perhaps the empire would have been scooped up and swallowed by the corporate machine what was standard gauge railroading.
Maybe Maine Central sensed that potential success and felt thus compelled to stop it.
Enough rambling. How long would the empire have lasted?
See ya
Jason
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I would agree to your basic tenets. Even though the MEC would have been a roadblock, one theoretically could have gone the local maritime route to avoid most of the MEC. However, the regional schooner was basically obsolete by WWI and larger steamships would not have made port in Wiscasset due to the shallow draft. One could have extended the pier and dredged but IMHO the cost would have been prohibitive versus the revenue gained.
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Very interesting questions Jason asks. Not sure I have much to add to the discussion, but here's my try...
Having grown up in Wareham, MA, my first interest in railroad history is the railroad on Cape Cod. The railroad first reached the Cape in May 1848 (Sandwich) and was soon extended to Hyannis (July 1854). Nantucket money played a large part in completion of the Hyannis extension, and the railroad's wharf was soon completed in late September. With this, Nantucket steamships were immediately rerouted via Hyannis, away from Nantucket's rival port, New Bedford.
Hyannis' railroad wharf would remain Nantucket's steamship connection until 1872, when the Woods Hole branch was completed. With this, Woods Hole became the principal islands connection.
However, the Hyannis railroad wharf continued a thriving freight business into the early twentieth century. The Cape enjoyed excellent railroad facilities, but low tariff freight -- commodities like lumber and coal -- were shunned by the railroad in favor of higher-paying freight. Schooners made a business handling these commodity freights. Even coal for the railroad was delivered via the Hyannis wharf.
However, by the 1930s, this business was dying out. On September 10th, 1937, the rail line between Hyannis station and the railroad wharf was abandoned.
So in answer to Jason's questions, I suspect the Two Foot Empire would have prospered for a period of time but ultimately would have died out in the 1930s, a victim of improved highways and trucks.
- Bill
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Transloading was the biggest expense. If they could have eliminated some of that, it would have been a huge savings.
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Break of gauge costs of transloading would have been eliminated. If your shipment destined for Baltimore was going to be loaded onto a ship anyhow, then narrow gauge direct-to-port connection would eliminate the break of gauge.
My suspicion is that the narrow gauge would not have been able to haul enough to be truly profitable, which would mean that it would need to be standard gauged. Which is probably why the MEC did what it did with not allowing the F&SK to connect via Farmington yard and eventually buying the SR&RL.
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The "transloading onto ship anyway" is a key point. As built, if produce originating in Franklin County was put on a ship somewhere on its journey, that meant there were two transfers (the other being to the standard gauge at Farmington).
Chances are, much produce leaving Franklin County reached its destination by (standard gauge) rail. Thus eliminating the transfer to the standard gauge network would only be replaced by a transfer from narrow gauge to ship at Wiscasset. On top of that- new market arrangements would need to be made- ones receptive to marine transport. Or add another transfer, back to rail, at some other east coast port.
As to the profitability of narrow gauge, I believe the idea that the narrow gauge couldn't be profitable because it couldn't haul enough (i.e. Because it was Narrow Gauge) is the fallacy of the fallacy of the narrow gauge. That is: there was a counter- narrow gauge movement (the fallacy of the narrow gauge) during narrow gauge fever that sought to discredit the narrow gauge theory. It was highly prejudiced and persists to this day. The fact is that there are examples of successful narrow gauge railroad enterprises; the fact that there were any successful applications of the narrow gauge theory proves that it is possible to be successful with a narrow gauge. This inherently disproves the idea that "because you're narrow gauge, you can't haul enough to be profitable."
Many narrow gauge railroad ventures were not successful, by various measures. Many, but not all. Those that failed therefore can't be attributed to "the fallacy of the narrow gauge;" rather they must be attributed to an inappropriate application of the theory of the narrow gauge.
Down with standard gauge! Two Feet is the NEW standard!
See ya
Jason
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Ah shoot, don't you hate it when those private thoughts just jump out and end up as words on a public forum?
Anyway, I'd think the FS&K would have thrived on shipments originating from Franklin County and transloaded to ship in either Portland or Boston. At least until ships got too big for Wiscasset.
Do you suppose Fred Fogg, Phillip Stubbs, Leanord Atwood or any other Franklin County connection advocates did such a market study?
See ya
Jason
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I was thinking for this application (Franklin County to Wiscasset) that 2 foot equipment was too narrow to carry enough lumber for profitability, mainly because of distance because the SR&RL was profitable for a while. Certainly there's many examples world-wide of generally profitable two-foot gauge rail lines - the Welsh lines, South Africa, India. To this day there's several thousand miles of two foot gauge Queensland (Australia) sugar cane to mill networks, although most networks are not interconnected and only serve a single mill.
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Hmm- we're not talking crazy distances here. The longest line haul possibility would have been about 120 miles, Eustis/ Rangeley to Wiscasset. Even if it were more, there's a simple balance to be struck between available traffic, a marketable rate, and the cost of doing the business. Without a detailed analysis, I think the weak leg would be available traffic.
The narrowness of the gauge in itself simply translates to a given tonnage being spread out over more axles. Doing that only really drives costs up when more trains must be run (more crew, more coal, more clerical needs). The two foot gauges (particularly Sandy River) had worked out ways to haul longer trains. Even at that, the as built Wiscasset line hardly ever ran it's trains at capacity.
In short- I still don't think the narrowness of the gauge would have been a hinderence to the empire. I think the main hinderence (after the evil MEC that is) would have been lack of traffic. I suppose it all comes down to the production level of the area served, versus the alternate methods of transport.
See ya
Jason
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And here I thought with the arrival of the container that we were going to start intermodal service to Wiscasset leading to the eventual expansion to Farmington!
Keith
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Just think how much the containerization of freight would have helped the narrow gauge movement...
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Let's ask Mike Fox to design a container-on-two-footer vehicle. Now that we have a container we can try it out. ;D
-John M
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Oh, I've already dreamt one up...
At least this time there won't be any pesky MEC standing in the way of true two foot progress...
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Most narrow gauge operations were built that way to conserve capital. Therefore, their business cases must have been marginal, from the start.
The relative utility of a narrow gauge railway is very great, when compared with the unsealed country roads they replaced. Railways began as all-weather roads that could provide reliable and speedy transportation services. On those early roads, in bad weather, horses would become bogged up to their haunches and carts up to their axles.
Railway track spreads wheel loads from the rails through the ties, through the ballast, or compacted subgrade, at least, and then through to the natural soft subgrade. By that stage, the wheel loads have been sufficiently well dispersed for the soft subgrade to support them.
Two foot gage provides all of the advantges mentioned, above.
It does need to be recognised, however, that broader railway gauges generally do represent increased utility. More important than gauge, however, for the maximisation of railway utility, is axle load. That is relatively independent of track gauge. It depends, to a great extent, on the bulk density of the commodities carried. Passengers have a very low bulk density and because of that, passenger services never pay when there are alternative modes.
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I've got to agree with Mr. Scott's analysis of the economy of the narrow gauge. As we try to explain to visitors, the original purpose of the WW&F was to offer residents of the Sheepscot Valley a more efficient and all-weather means of transportation. And that was true and worked fine, until motor vehicles and paved roads came along.
Even in such places as South Africa, where two-foot gauge railways were heavy-haul operations, once highways were completed, they were doomed. Modern highway trucks can carry as much or more than even the most modern two-foot gauge freight car. Even when the NGG Garratt locomotives were replaced with multiple-unit diesels, the narrow gauge could not compete with road transport.
Most surviving two-foot railways, such as the cane railways in Queensland, Australia, are seasonal in nature and designed to handle a specific product. If sugar cane were as heavy as iron ore, a two-foot gauge railway would not work. The surviving two-footers in India, by the way, have been government-operated and subsidized since Day One.
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Hmm, I don't disagree with John Scott, in particular. I would argue that the narrow gauge has never been about achieving maximum efficiency of the railway system; moreover it was about grabbing the most basic efficiency of the railway (low friction of iron wheel on iron rail, along with the load distribution characteristics as described above) as part of an optimized system of transportation that is economically viable. In other words, an economically optimized system does not necessarily require maximum efficiency from all or any of its constituent parts.
To Wayne's point- I have to differ that our Railway's purpose was, from day one, to offer the Sheepscot Valley's residents with transportation. From year 13, sure, I agree. The W&Q, and WW&F were decidedly about Wiscasset, and its revival as a sea port. They didn't care where they got their traffic, but they knew it wasn't the Sheepscot Valley. By the time the railroad was built, I believe Quebec was a bit of a rouse, but the connection at Farmington, to grab the traffic, and success, of the Sandy River system, was decidedly a driving force behind the construction of our railroad.
Year 13 brought the Peck/ Sewall era; they decidedly focused on the people of the Sheepscot Valley.
This is an extremely important distinction in discussing and teaching the history of the WW&F. Of all the Maine two-footers (and let's include the B&B), the Wiscasset line was the only one built outside of the "Mansfield Sysrem," which viewed a two foot railroad as servicing a particilar, concise geographic area. The Wiscasset line was the only one who envisioned strength in a two foot gauge network.
Thus the purpose of this thread. I wanted to explore the idea of that network, for the purpose of understanding the full scope of what the WW&F was trying to do, before they settled down to the Sheepscot Valley.
See ya
Jason
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I am sure that we would all agree that it would have been a wonderful thing for the WW&F had it been provided with the extended catchment area that the construction of the FS&K would have afforded. Unfortunately, though, the more “advanced” technology of the rubber tire on a water-proofed road surface would still have won in the end.
I say unfortunately because I am an admirer of elegant simplicity – and I know that I am far from being the only one, here. It would be interesting to analyse the relative benefits of the simple system of the two foot gauge railway as against the automotive mode in terms of energy consumption and environmental impact. I suspect that most of us would consider that we have a good idea of the answer, already! Overriding all such logical analysis is the ultimate truth that humans will pay whatever they need to pay for convenience.
Re-building a mostly forgotten railway in a remote region is not exactly convenient. The people of the WW&F who are doing just that are to be honoured for their ability to understand the past, to see into the future and to correctly discern ultimate value.
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I'm really enjoying this discussion.
Jason makes a very important point about the W&Q/WW&F being a Wiscasset-oriented project, and how this differed from the other Two-Footers. Wiscasset's heyday as a seaport was in the late 1700s/early 1800s when it was briefly the busiest US port north of Boston (or so it's claimed), and this accounts for the large number of stately old colonial and Federal-period homes in the town. However, by the time the W&Q was chartered in 1854 the port of Wiscasset was already in serious decline, and by 1894 it had been reduced to a backwater, a shadow of its former glory. The idea of building a railroad network into the hinterlands as an economic development project for a declining port, and not for the benefit of hinterland towns it would run through, may account for some of the WW&F's eccentricities like placing stations so far away from the communities they supposedly served (Sheepscot station, for example).
In contrast, when Phillips, Bridgton, and Monson built their railroads, it was to serve local residents and local industries (lumber, slate, etc.) and to promote tourism. The Sandy River RR wasn't built for Farmington's benefit, but for Phillips! In the case of the Monson RR, Jones notes in Two Feet to the Quarries that the town of Monson was so desperate for a railroad connection that they started grading and laying track to Monson Junction a few months before the standard gauge Bangor & Piscataquis line to Greenville was even completed. That's more or less the opposite of what happened with Wiscasset and the W&Q.
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A pretty good parallel to the W&Q/WW&F/FS&K "empire" can be seen in the South African Railways two-foot gauge line from Port Elizabeth to Avontour. The line survived intact until the mid-1980's, hauling produce from the agricultural highlands to the seaport, as well as raw materials for a large cement plant on a branch line off the main route. In the end, however, even with diesel locomotives and high-capacity covered hoppers, the competition from trucks was too much to bear. In the case of our Maine empire, the slow re-growth of the forests would have doomed it by about 1950, if not before. See the extensive coverage on this site:
https://sites.google.com/site/soulorailway/home/system-3-1
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That's a great reference, Wayne, thanks.
For the sake of advancing this discussion, let's remove any romantic notion of the "empire" being strong enough to perform wonders and outlive the advance of cars, trucks, etc. Let's take for granted that such a large system still wouldn't have survived the sweeping technological and economic changes of the 20th century. If any form of it survived, it wouldn't be recognizable anyway.
However, would there have been subtle, tangible changes in the longevity of the system? The Bridgton and Monson lines lasted much later; would the empire have been sufficiently more successful to weather the Great Depression and survive into the 1940's? If so, might the preserved equipment at Edaville taken on a different look, as a greater pool of derelict equipment been available in Maine in its formative years of the 1940's?
Perhaps Wiscasset's fortunes may have been somewhat altered, with a greater commercial maritime trade?
I think the answer would lie in a detailed analysis of how traffic moved from Maine to market (and vice versa) in that era. As mentioned, a 120 mile line haul to Wiscasset really isn't much different than a 40 mile line haul to Farmington. It's not about distance, it's about where that traffic was going and how many modes of transport were required.
My feeling is the success, or failure, of the empire, in the context of American transportation in the early 20th century, would depend on the Wiscasset connection reducing the number of transfers required for freight generated and shipped to the area of Maine served. That boils down to a simple formula: how much freight traffic to and from Franklin County, Maine rode on a ship for part of its journey. For traffic that did- Wiscasset saved a transfer. For traffic that didn't, Wiscasset offered nothing.
Anyway, the perspective I'm trying to develop is just how differently the Wiscasset line was envisioned, as compared to the other two-foot lines. It's heritage was truly unique, even if not successful.
Jason
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Even with outbound ladings transferring directly from freight car to ship at Wiscasset, the labor involved in doing so would be a killer. When men were paid $2 a day, that was one thing, but when they were paid $1 an hour, that was quite another. Just think bout the labor to unload a boxcar full of 2X4's by hand and load them into the hold of a ship. Even if the lumber was shipped on flatcars, there would be a lot of manual labor involved. Or how about a boxcar loaded with barrels of apples or sacks of potatoes? And think how many cars it would take to fill the hold of even a small coastal freighter. Lots of work for the yard crew, in addition to the fellows unloading the cars.
A similar case study could be made using the East Broad Top RR down here in Pennsylvania. It was 33 miles long and was essentially a conveyor to move raw coal from mines at one end to a processing plant at the other. After the coal was cleaned and sized, almost all of it was loaded into standard gauge hopper cars and shipped away on the Pennsylvania Railroad. Even with its biggest 2-8-2's, an EBT coal train was limited to about 22 cars, or roughly 880 tons per train. That's less than a dozen or so standard gauge carloads by the time the rock and dirt is processed out of the coal -- not much for all that work. At its peak, the company had as many as 3,000 miners working to produce 2,600 tons of raw coal per day -- three loaded trains every day to fill 35 standard gauge 70-ton hoppers. That's a lot of overhead.
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Jason, I am really enjoying the conversation! I started to put together a set of slides on the history of the WW&F to present to my local model railroad club down here in Texas. I found the railroad as built to be a bit of a puzzle. In my humble view, building a railroad of any gauge from Wiscasset up the Sheepscot Valley could not be sustainable without a connection to something much bigger, such as what the FS&K offered. Carrying passengers, mail, and milk provided a steady flow of some cash, but not enough to make it profitable in the long term. The "bulk" commodities (lumber and coal) the valley provided were too few and unreliable. Certainly the loss of the coal contract with the woolen mill in North Vasselboro didn't help that situation.
The comments regarding the down turn of the seaport of Wiscasset are true. It appears that the seaport was relegated to the less glamorous but still important role as a port for Coasters. However, Wiscasset is barely mentioned in John Leavitt's book: "Wake of the Coasters." There were many seaports up and down the Maine coast that competed with Wiscasset. (NOTE: if you haven't read it, I highly recommend it.)
I do believe the expansion to Farmington could have extended the life up to the start of WWII. Anything after that would be improbable, not matter what the gauge.
I have found the people involved with this railroad the most fascinating. I see you've mentioned Fred Fogg on another thread. He is one of the many people that helped the WW&F survive as long as it did! BTW, my presentation centered on the people as much as the places and equipment. I also included the tremendous work done by the museum to preserve the spirit of the railroad.
Pete Leach
Tomball, TX
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Wayne, all,
The labor involved in transfer hurt, tremendously, for sure. However, this discussion is predicated on the fact that said transfer was happening in Farmington anyway. Thus, the transfer expense existed anyway and the question becomes whether there was an economical advantage in moving that transfer from Farmington to Wiscasset.
I believe the answer lay in whether the product actually transferred in Farmington was also transferred from standard gauge to ship at some other location. This would entail the cost of two transfers, while moving via narrow gauge to Wiscasset would reduce this to one transfer.
Pete, thanks for checking in! I believe many here would appreciate seeing your presentation, even if electronically if it ends up as a Power Point. It's nice to see such broad interest in the Wiscasset Line, past and present.
See ya
Jason
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The main advantage, if it can be called that, for products from up country being delivered to the wharf at Wiscasset, would have been the single-line haul. That would mean that the railroad would have received all the revenue derived from its movement of the freight to Wiscasset, with the ship owners then charging for the sea voyage. In a freight movement to Farmington, the railroad would have had to share the revenue with the standard gauge carrier. Not only that, railroad rates were structured on a combination of factors including the distance hauled, and obviously Wiscasset is a longer haul than Farmington.
That is, unless the WW&F, FS&K and SR&RL each had to get a piece of the action....
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Worked fine at home for me - thanks for sharing your info on this, Paul!
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Ed L and I were discussing this topic this afternoon and came to this conclusion. If the connection had been made while Wiscasset was a ship building port, Franklin County lumber could have been used to construct the ships and boats, and that would have been very beneficial to the railroad.
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Ship building on Maine rivers continued well into the 20th century, however right around the teens or twenties the business dropped off suddenly. I know shipbuilding on the Damariscotta River (the next one east of the Sheepscot) continued up to 1920, but I don't know when the last ship was built on the Sheepscot.
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That's true. The 1890's were a bit late for that but maybe the timber feed from the north would have prolonged it.
Did you know that at one time Wiscasset had 3 ropewalks? 3! Bath only ever had 1!!! One of Wiscasset's 3 also served as a bowling alley (now that's clever).
See ya
Jason
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Tonight's nugget of knowledge from Wikipedia: "The name Reeperbahn means ropewalk, which is a place where ropes are made (Low German Reep = rope, the standard German word is Seil; Bahn= track)." Reeperbahn is now Hamburg's red light district. I know this because I passed through that area on the way to Miniatur Wunderland.
-John M
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I'm really enjoying reading this exchange. As Jason has stated, if traffic had to be transferred ultimately to ships, the FS&K would have saved a transfer as opposed to SR&RL-MEC at Farmington and MEC to ship at Portland (I assume). As the WW&F developed a rather successful coal transfer port at Wiscasset, I wonder if coal could not have constituted a significant back haul, perhaps even tapping into the Waterville market for this commodity. If they had managed to form a mutimodal transport partnership with schooner owners out of Wiscasset, a nice circuit of lumber to Philadelphia/Baltimore/Norfolk and a hold full of coal return would seem plausible.
I'm not really familiar with the area the FS&K would traverse between Waterville and Farmington. Were there any resources to exploit there? Much potential for development? I know that Mr. Atwood had developed an elevator factory and a pulp mill in Farmington Falls which might have developed into significant customers (maybe?).
Turning towards other traffic sources: More convenient access to Franklin County from Waterville and the coast may have helped develop the Rangely Lakes resort area and may have presented a quicker, more efficient route for mail and express to Franklin County from the Eastern/Southern parts of Maine. Sheepscot Valley traffic may have been less vulnerable to siphoning off to parallel MEC stations, had there been access to interchange at Waterville for traffic to/from the North.
I'm sure, in the long run, it couldn't have survived good roads and reliable trucks. Unless SR&RL had expanded further North into fresh stands of timber, I wonder if the forests up there would not have been exhausted much earlier with an additional transportation avenue.
Anyway, it'd be cool beyond words!
other John (I went to Miniatur Wunderland too! Es war wunderbar!)
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Yes, oh yes, this shows the line as surveyed from Weeks Mills to Winslow AND, the river crossing, and the planned route through Watervile to connect with the FS&K!!!
I will let you know when google maps is updated, until then, please post your theories on where the railroad would go to connect with the FS&K at the intersection of Messalonskee Avenue and Western Avenue in Waterville to the known end of track in Winslow at about 20 Winslow Road in Winslow, about 200' south of the Route 201 / Lithgow Street intersection.
You can make your own map in google maps (My Maps) or write a brief description here.
Until then...
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2939/33447043041_c1653e7187.jpg)
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The Messalonskee stream joins the Kennebec river at the Elementary School/Thomas College properties, which is too far south of the Winslow station. I don't know exactly where the Winslow station was, but I always envisioned the WW&F/FS&K generally following what is now the "new" road and bridge from Kennedy Memorial Drive to the other side of the Kennebec. That means they would have needed to cross the Messalonskee, which isn't a very large stream between KMD and Western Ave.
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So, finally got a chance to look and analyze the map. How sure are you on the proposed location? The reason I ask is I have noticed a line on google maps that goes in almost the same direction, headed for Tyler Corner. Couls this have been the grade? Or was there an electric line that went through to Tyler Corner? No line mentioned in my abandon Railways books..
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James, The grade crosses the Carter Memorial Drive, off Dunbar Road is a long driveway pretty much dead on the ROW (44.527234, -69.635843). The station is at 44.532687, -69.636946, the larger bridge pier is at 44.533224, -69.637777, and the pier closest to the river is at 44.533436, -69.638005. Copy and paste those in to google maps to get a rough idea. A look at the 2 foot contours and it makes a lot more sense.
Mike, I am assuming you are referring to the Tyler Corner in Oakland at the sharp dogleg on Route 137 at East Pond Road? I will get more out in time but that is actually an old road to Ten Lots, a section of Fairfield / Oakland, that is marked on the plans as "The Road to Waterville". A few of the older maps show a road through here as well and it is referenced in the Maine Railroad Commissioners report, the year passes me right now, of grade crossings from New Sharon to Waterville.
I have some more work to do to get this through Waterville. The sketch of the topography Messalonskee and Kennebec rivers make sense, some of the streets are a little wonky and i suspect some names were swapped and dead ends made. There are also no measurements until you reach the Winslow side of the river. Also of interest is that station marker (distance measurement) 00+00 (0 feet) is at the Waterville Station on Western Ave and not measured from Weeks Mills. There are a few other neat things on this map too that are different from the famous 100'+ map the state has. (Also found another original copy and a black and white copy of that one of the W&Q)!!!
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it is referenced in the Maine Railroad Commissioners report, the year passes me right now, of grade crossings from New Sharon to Waterville.
The proposed FS&K grade crossings are listed in the Maine Railroad Commissioners' Report for 1900, pages 198-200. It looks like the old road Mike is asking about is crossing No. 15, described as "The highway leading from Smithfield to Waterville by the Ten Lots at a point about 1000 feet westerly of the Somerset Railway crossing" (which I take to mean the FS&K was going to cross the road 1000 feet west of where the Somerset Ry crossed the same road, which looks about right from Paul's map).
(FYI -- and this had escaped my attention until recently -- There is also a list of all the W&Q grade crossings between Wiscasset and Burnham in the Railroad Commissioners' Report for 1894, pages 41-43, submitted by none other than Fred Fogg!)
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Paul, your coordinates have really helped, I didn't realize how far north it really was. Looks like Bizier Street might have been a part of the ROW.
I'm guessing the line would have wanted to avoid the cemetary, so they would have been aiming north of that. There's a pretty good sized bluff that the cemetary sits on, so the line would have needed to gain a fair amount of height. They would have needed to cross Silver St/the Messalonskee somewhere around the Notre Dame church/Wilson Park.
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Makes sense Paul. I could find no reference to it.
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Philip: Thanks, I was far too tired last night to look, but when I get a chance I will find the links to the Google Books pages or my .pdfs if I can find them, to reference the Commissioners reports. There are a few for Maine online, and there are two that describe the FS&K, one from Farmington to New Sharon, and another covering the portion from New Sharon to Waterville.
Everything I have found is from long forgotten portions of the public record, and lets just say that the storage methods being employed leave much to be desired, so I am starting to float the idea of digitizing and preserving records with one entity, and hope to get going on the other two next month, at least to develop a plan. The key tip that I had wanted to chase down that lead to this was the constant mention in the standard Maine Narrow Gauge books of your choice, and the commissioners reports, was something along the lines of "as filed with the county commissioners" or in the deeds "along the line of stakes as filed with the county commissioners". So I thought, well, let's go find these elusive county commissioners. So...that's where some of these are to be found, but...one simply does not walk in to an office an view the records, no, one must dress like Indiana Jones and explore every back room of county government until one fines a room looking a little like this...
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2898/32751940104_a1d051c1ed.jpg)
with no search catalog.
James: Yes, in a way. That entire development was farm land at the time of the railroad and I THINK, but again will have to check, it was subdivided in the 1940's, and I will post more details later, but there is a slight 'ravine' between Bizier Street and Route 201 / Augusta Road and the ROW would have crossed 201 on a curve. If you were walking on the track railroad north as you cross the ravine into the Winslow yard to your left there would be an embankment, about 6'-10' that the curve would follow across the road and straighten out as it came upon the first of the three granite bridge abutments.
Mike: Google "UNH Historic Maps" find the one that covers Oakland / Smithfield / Fairfield for the 1890's, makes it a lot easier to follow the old descriptions from the reports.
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Thanks Paul and I will. Keep up the excellent work.
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Yes, thank you Paul. This is such a fascinating topic.
While looking for the list of FS&K grade crossings in Farmington, I came across the Railroad Commissioners' decision on the FS&K-SRRR connection in Farmington in the Report for 1901, pages 129-147. (FYI: The same volume has a list of Waterville & Wiscasset RR grade crossings in the towns of Winslow, Vassalboro, and China on pages 149-152, and a petition to allow the condemnation of land for the Winslow station on pages 159-160.)
The Farmington decision is a fascinating read, and what amazes me is how close the Commissioners came to actually giving permission for the connection. Basically, they agreed with the FS&K that it had a legal right to connect with the SRRR in Farmington, but the plan the FS&K submitted seemed to be based on the misunderstanding that the south end of the Farmington yard was the legal terminus of the SRRR. However, if the FS&K could just find a way to reach the SRRR north of the Farmington yard, it was free to do so.
Incredibly, the Commissioners noted that if it had been the SRRR petitioning for a connection with the FS&K on the same alignment, and not the FS&K petitioning to connect with the SRRR, they would have actually approved it, because the SRRR was an existing tenant on MEC property! They also suggested a possible compromise arrangement (entirely voluntary) that would have involved the MEC erecting a new freight house south of and in line with the passenger station to open up a clear ROW down one side of the yard, but the MEC doesn't appear to have been interested in cooperating. It all came so close to happening!
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Paul, your work is fascinating and beyond appreciated. That you had that simple epiphany as to where to find this is genius. Of course they're there.
Did you happen to get my pm?
Phillip,
I noted that same thing about the commissioner's decision - that they essentially invited the Sandy River to apply for the same thing the FS&K did: right to take land through MEC station grounds. The commissioners said they were compelled to rule against the FS&K as there was a law on the books (still is: Maine Statutes, Title 23, Part 7, Chapter 607, squiggly symbol 6017) prohibiting a railroad corporation taking by eminent domain the station grounds of another. The commissioners studied at length whether the affected area of the MEC owned lot was being used for "station purposes" and concluded that it was. It was true.
BUT- they then said if the Sandy River applied for the same thing, their decision would be different, because the tracks already existed. This proved there was room for them. The Sandy River never applied.
The old WW&F forum has an FS&K snippet relating a newspaper article from (I think) 1899. In it, the FS&K had just physically cut in a switch to the Sandy River track south of the MEC yard to a short lived lumber. I'll. He newspaper reports it was done with SRRR superintendent Beal's blessing. The next day, several SRRR and MEC officials, including Beal, inpsected the work, after which the SRRR removed some of that track so as to physically sever the FS&K and SRRR.
Guy Rioux's first book lightly mentions the Farmington connection after the WW&F took over from the FS&K. He gave one telling snippet- a letter from the MEC counsel to a SR official (maybe clerk? Don't remember now) asking to speak with him at his earliest convenience about 'this proposed Wiscasset and Franklin connection.'
I'm sorry to say it, but I think the failed connection was probably more so a Sandy River Railroad snub than anything. It's probably still fair to blame the MEC, but they acted through the SR, not the railroad commissioners. It seems that since the Maxcy takeover, the SRRR and MEC lines started getting blurred right away, with late 1880's discussions of standard gauging to Stong. That possibility alone would have discouraged the FS&K connection.
Ok that was long, sorry...
See ya
Jason
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A few nodes of interests:
All elevations are approximate and measured above sea level unless noted.
MEC @ Winslow overhead crossing: 55'
WW&F Ry Station Grounds @ Winslow: 84'
W&W Ry Station Grounds @ Waterville (Western Ave): 120'
Top of tallest existing bridge abutment @ Winslow: 73'
Height of Winslow abutment: ~19.5'
Required clearance above MEC @ Winslow: 21'
Required space between bridge piers: 85'
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As further evidence of how close it came to being built, I came across a railroad map published in 1901 that shows the FS&K.
Produced by the New England Railway Publishing Co. in Boston, a firm best known for their pocket-sized "Baby Pathfinder Railway Guide", the ABC Pathfinder Railway Guide Map shows the entire US railroad system on two big poster-sized sheets, each roughly 29 x 44 inches, one for the eastern US and one for the western US. It's apparently well known among collectors of old maps, but I hadn't heard of it until I saw a copy of the eastern US map listed for sale recently (and since sold) by an antiquarian map dealer in New York:
http://www.geographicus.com/P/AntiqueMap/EasternUnitedStates-railwaypublishing-1901 (http://www.geographicus.com/P/AntiqueMap/EasternUnitedStates-railwaypublishing-1901)
Zooming in on Maine, you can see there is a dotted line between Waterville and Farmington -- the FS&K! Wiscasset to Albion is labelled as the WW&F rather than the W&Q, but the Winslow branch is another dotted line, apparently still unfinished. The level of detail is amazing, with even tiny flag stops like Chelsea on the KCRR included. (See attachment.)
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Philip, that is pretty great. I had one of the State of Maine that was probably about the sames size, 1901, and had the line from Farmington to New Sharon. Girlfriends (later to become wife) dogs ate it.
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Interesting that almost all of those red lines actually existed at one time!
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Interesting that it shows the Rockland, Thomaston & Camden St Ry as well
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So, this is a long promised portion of the Franklin County Connection that I managed to uncover this spring.
The first piece here is the survey plan for the Waterville & Wiscasset Railroad, commonly referred to as the Winslow Branch. This line took the railroad from China, in the village of Weeks Mills, to the village of South China, through Vassalboro and the villages of East Vassalboro and North Vassalboro, past the American Woolen Company's mills and the "Beanery" canning factory, and into Winslow. The plan also will show you the planned route across the Kennebec River, through the lower end of "the plains" area of Waterville, across Summer and Silver Streets, across Messalonskee Stream and to the station grounds at Western Avenue and Cool Street.
Notes:
The woolen mills in North Vassalboro were initially a tannery, the original buildings (wood frame) were taken down and the first of three primary buildings (brick) were built. The oldest portion of the mill is the southeast building dating to the 1860's, then the center west building was built 1880's/90's and finally the southwest building was constructed in the 1900's/10's. I am not sure of the exact dates and will check with Ray next time I pop in to visit. The brick building on "the green" is where the company offices were located and now is occupied by a great store selling items from SEVERAL area artisans ranging from Rays own "Deadwood Designs" wood tables and crafts, to wrought iron fixtures, loads of jewelery, canned goods, soaps, and tons more. Tell Linda that I sent you.
The Maine Central Station was located about 4/10 of a mile north of the WW&F station on the west side of the tracks near the current Winslow Automotive and Tire. Until the Lockwood Mills were built in the beginning of the past century the industrial "heart" if you will was on Bay Street (RT 201) from the area of Fort Halifax (basically the whole green space) to the bridge to Waterville (I believe the eastbound side of the bridge was originally the trolley bridge and the westbound side was the former iron bridge for the roadway.
Lithgow Street would have been what I would have called the business center of Winslow, with the industrial center to the north. At one time there were buildings on both sides of the street and the portion of RT 201 between the two ends of the street wasn't planned until the 1930's.1
Summer Street and Silver Street are show at inverse angles to their actual position, the distance between the streets actually increases as they head south.
The spacing of Oakland Street and Western Avenue as a little off, they apparently are generalized and just sketched in. From the best I can determine thus far the railroad would have crossed Messalonskee Stream on a tangent with the current Wilson Park, which was sub-divided circa 1920.
Silver Street is named as such because the three wealthiest residents of Waterville lived on the street in the early 1800's reportedly with more wealth between them than the whole of Waterville combined.2 Cool Street was named for one of the earliest settlers.2
Note that there are scant station marks (the numbers written as '000+00.0 beyond the Vassalboro / Winslow town line and there are hardly any indication as to the degrees of curvature.) Also in Waterville at Cool Street is a compound curve, one of two or three I think between this plot and the one of the W&Q from Wiscasset to Albion and the second W&Q from Albion to Burnham.
Also note that the measurements begin at 0 in Waterville and not Weeks Mills. The Waterville station grounds on this plan and those shown on the FS&K through Kennebec county don't line up very well, so clearly there was a lot of this that was still open ended.
I haven't come across any deed transfers or damage claims for the ROW west of the Kennebec, and despite the stated scale on the plans of 1"=400' the numbers don't match up, sometimes they are WAY off, the only thing that is consistently on point are the degrees of curvature, I will point out the discrepancies later.
The commissioners records for all three counties though do have the damage claims listed for the W&Q, W&W, and the FS&K.
The Kennebec County Commissioners records for railroad right of ways are missing! They are in three volumes and were never transcribed for ease of reading.
Kind of a big deal in regards to Maine record retention laws. No one knows where they are and the people at the state archives are not too impressed with this. But, they are supposed to be on microfilm, somewhere, and the original books are supposed to be retained, so I will keep looking.
Also, i haven't come across any road crossing filings with the railroad commissioners covering the road crossings from the Winslow station to the Waterville station, about 6 crossings. I am hoping that the Kennebec Commissioners records can shed some light on this.
Neither Franklin or Somerset County have any knowledge of similar maps for the FS&K through their territories but, they do have the written surveys copied into the original books laying out the railroad with direction, distance, and curvature information and most of it lines up very well with what we know was built and when it is merged into the Kennebec County plot of the FS&K.
More of course is coming!
The below images are linked, so clicking on one should take you to my uploads on imgur.
(http://i.imgur.com/4VEfotft.jpg) (https://imgur.com/4VEfotf) (http://i.imgur.com/wG9pPAKt.jpg) (https://imgur.com/wG9pPAK) (http://i.imgur.com/K5WG03Xt.jpg) (https://imgur.com/K5WG03X)
(http://i.imgur.com/hWGgfCmt.jpg) (https://imgur.com/hWGgfCm)
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Fantastic, Paul!
Jeff S.
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The trench is easily visible on Google Maps:
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Farmington,+ME/@44.6568898,-70.1270621,205m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x4cb19a2fea708c99:0x9528d3894c61193!8m2!3d44.6704998!4d-70.1512169
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Hey Everyone,
The FS&K has always been right up there on my two footer favorites list. I was at Sheepscot over the Spring Work Weekend and had an all too brief chance to look at some of the FS&K related material that the museum recently acquired. In the short time I got to read some of it I realized what a treasure trove of info we now have and combined with the what other guys on this discussion have discovered, it all points to a very fascinating story still waiting to be told, that never has been completely told. I hope this discussion continues and jells into some kind of (book?) project to put it together and get the story out.
I'll bet that somewhere in that New Sharon/Farmington Falls area there are more FS&K construction photos waiting to see the light of day, too. Please, let's keep this going!
Dana
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It is fascinating isn't it? Equally fascinating to me was the Atwood proposed Maine Midland Railroad Co. It was intended to leave the FS&K at Farmington Falls and continue to Livermore Falls with a roughly 'J' shaped route.
Here are the articles of incorporation on pages 211-215:
https://books.google.com/books?id=9D44AAAAIAAJ&pg=PA213&lpg=PA213&dq=maine+midland+railroad+company&source=bl&ots=yTrKVTPPxw&sig=lRKm8AqGVklkXP1vs9MY_eDIUZA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwicstPE2O3aAhXExlkKHVvtAdYQ6AEIgAEwBw#v=onepage&q=maine%20midland%20railroad%20company&f=false (https://books.google.com/books?id=9D44AAAAIAAJ&pg=PA213&lpg=PA213&dq=maine+midland+railroad+company&source=bl&ots=yTrKVTPPxw&sig=lRKm8AqGVklkXP1vs9MY_eDIUZA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwicstPE2O3aAhXExlkKHVvtAdYQ6AEIgAEwBw#v=onepage&q=maine%20midland%20railroad%20company&f=false)
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That's funny. I was reading about the Maine Midland while eating breakfast this morning. It seems Atwood was determined, for a time, to connect Farmington Falls with either a standard gauge connection or a port. He had stared a pulp mill there and perhaps that was his goal, to connect his business enterprises to the outside world via rail, who knows? When the Farmington connection failed he moved to the Waterville and Wiscasset and tried to work from the other direction. What I found interesting was that some rail was laid "at various points" between Farmington and New Sharon, which was later taken up by a Franklin Construction Co crew and taken somewhere. The sources I've read aren't sure just where. It would be interesting to see if any spikes could be found on the old FS&K ROW to verify where some rail was actually laid. There are many questions still unanswered and I am hoping that the newly found documents will provide some answers.
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Hello Glenn, all,
Did these maps ever get photographed or otherwise reproduced? It’d be great to have a record of the FS&K location in this area.
Perhaps it’s made it onto the google map of the FS&K?
Does anyone know of any references to the mill siding south of Farmington station that the FS&K cut a switch into? I can’t find that reference...
Thanks,
Jason
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Hello FS&K enthusiasts, First time on here in awhile. I've been out of service for a long time. Health issues restricts further investigation of the FS&K impossible. I have a large folder of Farmington Chronicle articles to about 1900, copied from the archives located at University of Maine, Farmington Library. I would like my research to get into hands of a real FS&K interested person. In my past museum associations not much interest exists in the Waterville to Farmington extension. I'd be happy to meet and deliver for free all my notes or mailing can be an option at cost. Just let me know if you'd like everything I possess. I still think the Atwood dream was an important aspect of WW&F development.
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Hi Glen,
Please reach out to Linda Zollers, WW&F Archivist: archivist@wwfry.org (or call her at the museum, she is there often.)
She is compiling a great deal of information on the FS&K and hopes to get a book published. I'm certain she would like to hear from you as she is very interested in the subject.
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Hi Glenn. Glad to hear from you. Hope you are doing well.
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I have a large folder of Farmington Chronicle articles to about 1900, copied from the archives located at University of Maine, Farmington Library. I would like my research to get into hands of a real FS&K interested person. In my past museum associations not much interest exists in the Waterville to Farmington extension. I'd be happy to meet and deliver for free all my notes or mailing can be an option at cost. Just let me know if you'd like everything I possess. I still think the Atwood dream was an important aspect of WW&F development.
Hi Glenn, it is my understanding that Linda Zollers has tried reaching you via email, but that hasn't been successful so far. Is there a possibility that your email address has changed?
Perhaps you could call Linda at the Museum main phone number and leave a message for her if she doesn't answer: 207-882-4193; or send her email at: archivist@wwfry.org
------------------ Update:
I believe that the 'contact' issue has been resolved. Glenn provided me his cell number which I have passed on to Linda.
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Yes, Linda talked about it last night at the board meeting, and she is making the trip to meet Glenn very soon.
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Long story short, I've been intrigued by the FS&K map from Two Feet Between the Rails since I firat saw it, bac, in the '90s. The western end of it seemed to track very well with the western end, and the eastern end seems to track very well with the surveys plotted by Paul Levesque a couple of years ago. what also intrigued me is the circles marking the named places. I'd seen this sort of thing before in railroad historyie, and despite being marked as not to scale in most cases, they generally turned out to have been traced from USGS quads, at least in my experience. When I excerpted the route and overlaid it on a USGS base, it tended to confirm my suspicion, and also resulted in what appeared to be a very credible route, illustrated below. Of course my base map used 100ft contours, which hide a lot of detail; and as those of us who've worked with contour maps well know, the Devil is in the details. I'm now plotting the center section from this, adjusted where necessary to come up with workable grades, and would be happy to share my results if there's any interest in them.
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Very interesting. I think you are on to something. Please keep sharing
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Interesting indeed.
Jeff S.
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Some or most of the field notes for the surveying of the FS&K are in the WW&FRy Museum archives.
Bernie
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That's good to know, Bernie. It's been a very long time since I worked with field notes. When I learned surveying, it hadn't changed from Georkg Washington's time, apart from sone of the hardware. Barely a dozen years later, everything was recording total stations feeding CADD systems directly, and field notes were becoming a lost art.
I'd be curious to know how much of the data included the actual route survey. Typically, there were at least two surveys: one to get the lay of the land and another to precisely establish the route. A comparison of these would be particularly interesting since I've noticed some significant inacuracies in the 1894 quads. It occurs to me that there might be an opportunity for the Museum here: perhaps it would be possible to recruit one of the civil engineering programs to assist in getting all this plotted. They would benefit in giving the students an opportunity to learn something that, while they may never do it themselves, they will certain.y have to work with for generations until all the old surveys are digitised or superseded. The Museum would benefit in filling a large, significant gap in the history of the two-footers, and the preservationists would benefit in terms of recovering more Maine history that had been previously lost. Personally, I'd reall lkie to see how close I've come to hwat they had in mind, at least to the extent that's possible.
In the meantime, here's what I have come up withj, subject to being more accurately measured. These images contain the route that appears to make the best fit, at least so far, with whe general shape of Wellman's route. The narrower line is the pproximate center line of his map, which is not as neat as the original that inspired this whole effort, this being due to the coars scale of the original bein stretched over a much wider area consisting of a spherical projection. It's fraught with inaccuracies, but these tend to be minimal the closer I am to the axis of the end points I used.
The route here is my fifth iteration, and comes down to three significant grades, the steepest being about two miles at about 1.2% south of New Sharon, funning up the west side of York Hill. Hampshire his is the other side of the summit, at about 4.2 miles of 0.73%, followed by Foss Hill, about 3.6 miles at about 0.5%. In general, this would appear to be a very credible prospect, given the state of theart and the state of the budget thay had to work with.
These images work better in color, and I will post them as soon as I can get an image host arranged.
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York Hill Segment
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Hampshire Hill Segment
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Foss Hill Segment
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Something to remember when using headings from 1900ish is adjusting for magnetic drift. I think I have had to adjust 14 degrees for the FSK. I have been busy and haven't worked on it in a few months though.
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[Moderator's Note]
All relevant FS&K topics and discussions have been merged into this one thread to ease research on the matter.
Please continue to add to this thread all FS&K-related topics, rather than create new ones.
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Hello FS&K enthusiasts wherever you are, I check in once in a while. Yes, Linda now has my misplaced FS&K folder of Farmington Chronicle articles. I hope that new book becomes a real thing as interest in the Farmington portion of the WW&F has been haphazard at best. I have lost all the old computer pix of the railbed between F. Falls and New Sharon which were posted here probably more than ten years ago. Maybe they exist in the archives somewhere showing my day with an old Falls Fisherman as he let me explore the railbed and granite headers still there to see. He died shortly after we made that trip. I also hope the pix of the actual blue prints of the Farmington to F. Falls portion exist. Those are still available to see hanging on an office wall in Farmington, Contact the Farmington Historical Society as this is a very busy private office. One of the Main street headers in Farmington is still visable on a side street, can't remember street name but turn off Route 2 by Wiles Memorial and cross to High Street, on left about half way thru. If that new book becomes available please update this post. I want a copy.
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I recently met someone who is the lead digitizer for the Farmington Historical Society, and they ended up mentioning that in November of 1898, the Franklin, Somerset, and Kennebec Railway built a "over 1000 foot" wooden trestle through the grounds of the Abbott school in Farmington cutting the campus in half. The Abbott school was a prestigious private school for boys. The school ended up filing a suit against the railway. Here is a newspaper clipping about that and a couple photos of the subject trestle. I'll try to get some additional information about what ended up happening with the suit.
(https://imgur.com/a/WIq5vSl)
(https://imgur.com/a/cWqYahY)
(https://imgur.com/a/iU8GJsA)
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Here we go:
https://imgur.com/a/WIq5vSl (https://imgur.com/a/WIq5vSl)
https://imgur.com/a/cWqYahY (https://imgur.com/a/cWqYahY)
https://imgur.com/a/iU8GJsA (https://imgur.com/a/iU8GJsA)
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Wow! I've seen the photo of the small trestle in black and white (I think it was in Two Feet to Tidewater), but I didn't think there would be a color version out there!
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Wow! I've seen the photo of the small trestle in black and white (I think it was in Two Feet to Tidewater), but I didn't think there would be a color version out there!
It looks colorized and not a color pic.
Tom C.
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I was reading through Two Feet to Tidewater and noticed this map of the proposed route of the FS&K. Interestingly it includes a route from New Sharon to Augusta and Gardiner, and another to Norridgewock. Out of curiosity I looked on Google Maps and noticed there seems to be a railroad grade in the form of Kimball road between New Sharon and Vienna, and a crossing on the Maine Central line in Readfield. Is it just a coincidence that the roads on Google Maps match up with this map, or was there a railroad built along this route (assuming standard gauge) that I've never heard of before?
https://i.postimg.cc/2j4qpDzw/PXL-20240703-042605309-NIGHT-2.jpg (https://i.postimg.cc/2j4qpDzw/PXL-20240703-042605309-NIGHT-2.jpg)
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Likely coincidence. Grading for the FS&K never proceeded much beyond New Sharon. You can semi-follow the grade between Farmington and New Sharon on Google Maps.
FYI in New Sharon there's some substantial stone bridge supports that you can still see from Rt 27.
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There was some posting a while ago wbere someone had done a bunch of research and found the actual proposed route to Waterville. As James said, no earthwork was done byond New Sharon. The grade between New Sharon and Farmington can be followed, and someone recently documented that as well.
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Back in 1881, due to the success of the Sandy River RR, there was talk of building a 2 foot gauge line from Phillips to the Kennebec river. The question arose as to which city on the Kennebec would be the destination. Both Augusta and Gardiner wanted to be that destination. There was a map in the Kennebec Journal which may be the one in the book. A couple railroads were chartered, the Franking & Kennebec and the Kennebec Central (not to be confused with the Kennebec Central that ran to Togus). Neither was built. There is quite a bit of info in the Phillips Phonograph Journal.
Jeff
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I was reading through Two Feet to Tidewater and noticed this map of the proposed route of the FS&K. Interestingly it includes a route from New Sharon to Augusta and Gardiner, and another to Norridgewock. Out of curiosity I looked on Google Maps and noticed there seems to be a railroad grade in the form of Kimball road between New Sharon and Vienna, and a crossing on the Maine Central line in Readfield. Is it just a coincidence that the roads on Google Maps match up with this map, or was there a railroad built along this route (assuming standard gauge) that I've never heard of before?
https://i.postimg.cc/2j4qpDzw/PXL-20240703-042605309-NIGHT-2.jpg (https://i.postimg.cc/2j4qpDzw/PXL-20240703-042605309-NIGHT-2.jpg)
Hello Daniel,
You may wish to read a few relevant articles written by the late W.W. & F. Ry. Museum member, Ellis E. Walker.
In his book "Musings, a collection of articles" that were a main-stay of early museum newsletter content,
look for musing no. 3 (Nov./Dec. 2002) and musing no. 5 (Mar/April. 2003).
Ellis wrote about projected narrow gage routes and even provided a map in Musing no. 3 of these hoped for intentions.
If in your interests to exploring these corridors, you begin to physically walk the Gardiner area, there is much still to see. I would encourage you to walk the rail trail to Augusta from where it begins in Gardiner. Also in Gardiner, walk south from the former Maine Central depot (opposite the Hannaford supermarket) and check out the waterfront and short trail that runs along the former yard area. There are still lengths of rail and grading from the once vast docks that Kennebec River sailing vessels tied up to for interchange with the railroad. There are still a few yard tracks present in the South Gardiner yard, along with a preserved former railroad freight shed.
There is also remaining trestle work the once led out and over the Cabosse Stream to a long gone mill. My spelling of that stream name may not be correct. Where this spur ran, is not far from a former producer of narrow gage freight equipment, the building (now gone) but last occupied by the T.W. Dick Co.
I'd enjoy hearing from anyone else who'd like to take a guess at just how a rail line (of any gage) could be brought on from westward points into Gardiner. The topography would make that quite a challenge. The Cabosee Stream trestle work is referenced again as a case in point.
In closing, I will say that a few years ago "Trigger" (the railroad dog) took a leisurely afternoon swim in the Kennebec after a day grabbing for snacks and bites of hot dogs at Sheepscot. He stubbed a paw on something when he came out of the river. That something ( which I still have) is a narrow gage stake pocket casting. Curiously, this casting was found on the west Bank of the Kennebec, opposite from the Kennebec Central terminal.
Happy exploring and I hope you journey up through Hallowell, where I saw remnants of a spur going into an old coal dealers facility. The property looked to be going under the early stages of cleaning up and such that the historical significance was recognized.
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I must apologize for not getting the name of the stream correct. It is the Cobbosseecontee Stream, which I erroneously referred to as the Cabossee stream.
Also to add to the story, one of the Sandy River officials had an office in Gardiner and somewhere in my archives, I have a letterhead with the address on it. Can a reader provide that officials" name?
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Wouldn't it have been Josiah Maxcy (or is it Maxcey?). He was an official of both the KC and the SR&RL
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There was some posting a while ago wbere someone had done a bunch of research and found the actual proposed route to Waterville. As James said, no earthwork was done byond New Sharon. The grade between New Sharon and Farmington can be followed, and someone recently documented that as well.
I'm familiar with the route to East to Waterville, but I've never seen the route southeast to Gardiner before.
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Also to add to the story, one of the Sandy River officials had an office in Gardiner and somewhere in my archives, I have a letterhead with the address on it. Can a reader provide that official's name?
It's interesting you mention the Sandy River's Gardiner office. Jeff Schumaker's "Two Foot Gleanings" article that will appear in the next issue of the WW&F Newsletter (July/August) reviews the purchase of the Sandy River by the Maine Central in 1911. His article concludes with a September 2nd, 1911 Gardiner Daily Reporter-Journal article, which stated (following the purchase), "The (Sandy River) annual meetings hereafter will be held in Portland instead of Gardiner."
I can't tell you the official's name, but names listed in Jeff's article are possible candidates: Purchasing agent Richard Maxcy; president J. S. Maxcy; and treasurer G. A. Farrington.
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Josiah Maxcy had his law office in Gardner.
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Thank you to both Bill and Allan for the information you have provided.
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This is the thread I was thinking about. 14 pages long. Happy Reading..
https://forum.wwfry.org/index.php/topic,16.0.html (https://forum.wwfry.org/index.php/topic,16.0.html)
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Topics now merged. Happy reading!