W.W.&F. Discussion Forum
WW&F Railway Museum Discussion => Museum Discussion => Topic started by: John Kokas on February 27, 2011, 08:03:43 AM
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I think this last snowfall should end the plow versus snowblower debate. As observed, plowing only works until the depth equals the plow height; hence why the Colorado lines went with rotary plows.
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Gee, sorry I had to work yesterday....but I'm sure my bones are happy that they were in a heated office all day!
Hmm...maybe next time I can help out ;D
Red
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I believe our current equipment could be made to perform better- the plow needs to never be back-drug; it needs to face south when moving south over the entire line. We need to stop and clear all crossings even if they aren't used and are snowed over. We need a makeshift flanger and a makeshift spreader. More speed, more power, bigger, taller plow, would all be nice and should be the long term goal. For now, however, the above-named improvements need to be made or we just can't do this.
I wholeheartedly agree with James- as a museum we find a way to make the historical approach work or don't try. Even a steel wedge plow mounted on the diesel is the same spirit of the original approach. And... the plowing itself is quick (James please back me up on that). When plowing northbound, actual plowing time may be around 1 hour- even bucking drifts. This excludes crossing clearing and Alna Center because of switch clearing and 2 crossings.
In my opinion- by and large the biggest problem is back-dragging. We shouldn't back drag at all. In fact- the plow being shorter than the snow banks would not be an issue if it weren't being back-drug; in fact if it were re-plowing when moving south. I don't see this weekend as a support for snowblowing 2 1/2 miles of railroad at all.
There are ideas to switch the plow at the North end; there are ideas to improve switch clearing. Yard clearing becomes much easier with the plow at the north end. I beleive these things are doable- and perhaps worth it for the right series of circumstances.
But... Fred says if we do this again he won't be around. I'll take Fred over winter operations anyday (seriously, Fred)!
A real wedge plow and flanger, with real power to push (#9, #11) should be our ultimate goal in this respect, in my opinion.
Jason
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A wedge plow would make a great project for the yet-to-be-built car shop. That is how far in the future it should be.
The snowblower has it's place, it sure makes my life easier, but when trying to travel any distance, it is slow. A wedge plow was used and still are used on all Maine rail lines. If the wedge couldn't get it, time to shovel. They are much taller than the locomotive mounted plow we have today. Threw snow a great deal further too. Look at some of the photos of the SR&RL. That snow was flying.
Like I said, this would be a great project for the distant future.
A Flanger is more of a priority. We can make something work if we try. Given time of course.
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... the plowing itself is quick (James please back me up on that).
Certainly the plowing we did at the beginning of February was quick. And the plowing itself was pretty fast this time around - it's just clearing out all the switches, crossings, etc that took so much time.
And the back dragging didn't help matters any.
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I use to volunteer at another museum. This museum mounted a wedge plow on the frount of the locomotive. At the end of the line a come-a-long was used to raise the wedge plow. So that it didn't drag the snow back onto the track when the locomotive returned from the end of the line. Not sure if present owner of locomotive still has the wedge plow on hand.
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I guess I was over tired from shoveling when I said I wouldn't be there for another winter train. I might consider it if the museum is paid for it in my weight in gold. However, if we improve our plowing equipment and tecniques I might reconsider it. This year has had the most snow I've ever seen since being at the museum.
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Also, the wedge plows are wider that the locomotive mounted plow. Using the wedge would open the banks further and give the snow from the locomotive plow someplace to go.
And Fred, you'll be there no matter what. You always have been. ;)
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It's snowing again so I took a few minutes to look up the dimensions for WW&F plows 401 and 402. The plans show the plows were 7 feet, 6 inches wide with a cutting surface 7 feet high. The contact surfaces were edged in iron and the wood was horizontal. The extra width gave the plows a wider stance than the flangers which were 6 feet 2 inches wide. The sides of the plows were sheathed in horizontal boards which came down to 4 inches above the rail head. The side sheathing kept snow from rolling back under the plow and helped pack the snow along the sides of the area that was cleared.
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Here's how how snow plowing is done in Donnybrook, North Dakota.
RR_XING_ND.wmv
Dave
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Fred, I'll second what Mike said. You've gotta be on the next plow run ... otherwise who will build a fire in the stove at AC? The warm station sure felt good after a couple of hours shoveling snow last Saturday.
Speaking of last Saturday, Fred was stranded with us on the plow extra and it was around noon so he decided to walk back to Sheepscot to see if he could get some lunch together. Fortunately, he didn't have to because Cindy had talked to Zack who said we had no food. She brought home made chicken noodle soup, clam chowder, choclate chip cookies and a fresh baked apple pie for lunch.
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Stewart,
I believe the Bridgton plow at MNG has side walls which bow out and then back in along the length of the plow- such that the center of the car actually pushed back and compacted the bank. Assuming this was an as-built condition and not otherwise... Were the WW&F plows this way?
Jason
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Jason, Yes, the WW&F plows were framed with a "ships hull" taper. The plows leading iron edge was 6 foot 6 inches wide. From there the body widened back to 7 feet 6 inches at the front bolster which was half way back in the diagonal of the wedge. The rear taper started at the c/l of the last wheel and narrowed to 6 foot 3 inches at the draft beam. An 6X6" oak sill ran behind the base of the side sheathing. The contact surface and much of the framing was in hard pine. I will make copies of the 1894 Portland Company plans for you.
Stewart
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I must admit, I myself am in favor of building a wedge plow, and flanger when the time is right, however I dont think that now is the time. Maybe in the future when the museum is ready to make a valid attempt to stay open all winter. However, I think that if a flanger is built, the inside could also be used as a tool car. I say this because when working with plows and flangers it was always necessary to carry jacks, lining bars, shovels, etc. So my thought was that maybe we could keep some tools in the flanger. Again, not saying this is any time soon, however, its just food for thought for in the long run. This would also save from building a tool car. It would be a flanger with year round use, you dont see that very often. :)
As far as the whole rotary thing goes, railroads in New England never used them for two reasons, 1 not enough snow for them, and 2 because they are very, very slow. Watch the C&TS when they used to use OY, top speed in two feet of snow is 3mph. With a wedge plow, you can go 30mph. As much of a fan of steam rotarys, and rotarys in general, the WW&F was no reason to have one. They may be neat to see run, but I'm sur they are no fun to operate. In the videos, you look at the guys in the cabs, they are all bored to death. Rotarys, I'm sure as most people know, were built for snow drifts almost as tall as the rotary. Are wedge plows great for every railroad, no. But the same thing goes for rotarys. Rotarys work great for railarods out in the Rockies, where a single snow drift can go over 10', which is why railroads on the eastern coast didnt have many, if any at all.
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Joe, I am not sure a dual use plow is a good idea. They were big and heavy. A lot of car to tow around just to carry track tools in the summer. Maybe a flanger wouldn't be so big but the inside maybe more busy. Better to use a flat or boxcar in my opinion.
Tom C.
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Joe, I am not sure a dual use plow is a good idea. They were big and heavy. A lot of car to tow around just to carry track tools in the summer. Maybe a flanger wouldn't be so big but the inside maybe more busy. Better to use a flat or boxcar in my opinion.
Tom C.
I think Joe suggests a dual-use flanger, not a dual-use plow. Pictures of the WW&F flangers (201-202) show them as 26 feet and 30 feet respectively, within the same length range as boxes and flats. The would be heavier, as you point out, due to the mechanisms inside.
-John
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Joe makes a good point.
This past winter, the BNSF managed to destroy two of their rotaries. The newly rebuilt Lincoln rotary (2010) managed to hit crossing planks through Iowa and bent the shroud as well as breaking a headlight and windows.
An ex-NP plow managed to shed ALL of its blades while attempting to plow in South Dakota.
Score: Snow 2 Plow-0.
Now a nice raisable wedge plow.....
Ira
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Yes, Joe does mean the Flanger. By dual use, he meant tool car in the summer, flanger in the winter.
Even with the wing attachment and controls that are on the B&SR flanger, there is a great amount of storage available inside for tools.
His thought is to be able to keep the same tools used in the summer stored in the car for the winter, and potential winter use.
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I wonder if someday we ever get a proper winter plow train together, if it would be worth our while to have an event for the railfans to come and photograph. People would have to pay, of course.
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It may not be worth it, but it would be fun.
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I wonder if someday we ever get a proper winter plow train together, if it would be worth our while to have an event for the railfans to come and photograph. People would have to pay, of course.
Run a plow extra with steam in the morning (best light at the WW&F) and count me in! Almost no steam operations in the country do it any more. I think the D&S and the Strasburg are about the only ones, but neither does it as a photo event. It's a necessary part of keeping the line open.
/Kevin
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Here's a picture of a snow train of a neighboring line—the Knox RR (originally Georges Valley RR.) It's from The New England States Limited, Vol. II, No. 4 (Spring 1979) and shows their flanger, which resembles an outside-braced boxcar, behind 2-6-2T No. 6 in Union in the mid '30s.
(http://home.earthlink.net/~wfortier/WW&F/GVTrainWithFlanger.jpg)
Also, how about some wood siding and a second blade for 52 in the meantime?
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Nice photo Bill. As you know there are members looking at what can be added to existing locomotives and cars. The plans include putting a flanger blade on #52 and adding spreader wings, possibly on the south end of the engine.
The D&S just ran a winter special. I have seen numerous photos (see Kevins link on the narrow gauge thread) and it looks like it was a good event that was well attended. The D&S didn't have a wedge plow but the K-27 had the typical D&RG pilot plow that looked great. The D&S probably made money on the event, either way there were lots of happy photographers.
If we build a flanger and wedge plow and run a plow extra for the public it could be followed by a freight. The event would be at the mercy of the weather so if there's no snow that weekend a special mixed or freight would round out the visitors experience. The event could be scheduled when #9 is in steam.
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My thoughts behind being able to run a real steam plow extra, with plow, one or two engines, and a flanger was plow out about a half mile before the actual photo attempts. Then go back, pick up a coach, or caboose, go up to where the cleared track ends, drop of the photographers. Then back the train up, drop off the caboose, like we did on Saturday, March 5th, and continue plowing. Now on the downside, the photographers would have to know that they would have to walk through the snow to get any photos they might want. And I would also have a revenue day scheduled for the afternoon, or the next day and run a steam in the snow excursion again.
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I remember seeing a homebuilt "snow blower" tried on the Mt. Washington Cog Rwy. back a dozen or so years ago when they experimented with being open in the winter for skiers. I don't know how well it worked, but video of it looked impressive. Seems to me it was mounted on some sort of flatcar. Anyone know what became of it? I've seen similar rigs close to home used for clearing sidewalks, etc., usually mounted on some sort of tracked vehicle.
Back in the 1960s or so, the Long Island Railroad had a rotary plow, but I don't know if they ever used it. I recall seeing photos of it, possibly at their shops, in the summer. There may have been other eastern roads with them, but that's the only one I can think of offhand.
Richard Symmes
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The Long Island did indeed have a steam rotary snowplow, and it was invoked as recently as the early 1960's. I've seen a few color photos of it under steam, though not plowing. It was later acquired by a railfan, and still later wound up at Steamtown. It is currently on display in Scranton. I believe it may have been built by the Pennsylvania Railroad; at any rate, it has a Belpaire boiler and the tender has PRR-style trucks. I don't know of any other eastern roads that rostered a rotary.
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The LIRR rotary #193 was built by Cooke in 1898. As Wayne stated, the tender has PRR style trucks. The tender is a replacement, which I believe may have been a regular PRR short haul tender, like some of the Atlantic's had. I estimate that the boiler was probably replaced at some point too, but I am unsure if that is the case or not. As a visitor may note, the geography of Long Island is particularly flat, and, in the late 1800's was mostly undeveloped as well. The Long Island initially purchased this plow to deal with the extensive drifting found outside Queens and Brooklyn, where the railroad encountered vast open areas which are prone to drifting.
A great photo of the rotary in action, and other neat snowfighting equipment on LI can be found at this site:
http://arrts-arrchives.com/snow.html
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I am absolutely amazed to see that photo of a rotary snowplow fitted with third rail shoes!! Who could have imagined an electric rotary snowplow in 1:1 scale??
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Well, even though the construction is a long ways off, who says we can't start stockpiling the lumber and maybe gathering the necessary parts (trucks, couplers, metal for the plow blade(s) ) for the project?
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If something were to be stockpiled, I would hope it would be the steel parts. Won't rot near as quick if left in the only open storage we have.
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I'd like to see us build a plow someday but if we can get a set of freight trucks put together and find a pair of 3/4 couplers they'll probably go on the B&SR tank car first.
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Do we have extra couplers and trucks? If not, do the other museums have spares we could purchase or trade? Or for the long-term, do patterns need to be developed?
Dave Crow
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There is currently a set of spare passenger trucks. If they were to go under coach 8 (which is currently on freight trucks) then there would be a set of spare freight trucks. But the passenger trucks need an overhaul "( including the addition of brake rigging...) before going under a car, which puts their usage into the 'eventually' time-frame. But, somehow that time-frame lines up perfectly with the completion of the tank car :P
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There is currently a set of spare passenger trucks. If they were to go under coach 8 (which is currently on freight trucks) then there would be a set of spare freight trucks. But the passenger trucks need an overhaul "( including the addition of brake rigging...) before going under a car, which puts their usage into the 'eventually' time-frame. But, somehow that time-frame lines up perfectly with the completion of the tank car :P
*Sigh* Always does. ::)