W.W.&F. Discussion Forum
General Topics => General Discussion => Topic started by: James Patten on July 20, 2010, 05:26:38 PM
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One of my co-workers over the 4th of July weekend took a trip down the Allagash Waterway and visited the site of the locomotives of the former Eagle Lake & West Branch railroad. The Railroad was built in the late 1920s and operated for only a few years. It replaced a tramway which hauled logs from Eagle to Chamberlain lake. The railroad ran from Eagle to Umbazooksus lake. These structures were built to move lumber from the Allagash Waterway, which flowed north into Aroostook county (and into the St. John which drained into Canada) and instead moved the lumber south onto the Penobscot river (the West Branch of the Penobscot for the railroad, the East Branch for the tramway).
The Maine Forest Service burned down all the wooden structures on the Allagash in the 60s, including the shed that these locomotives were in. Over the years the engines started to tilt over as the ground under them settled. About 10 years ago a group of people started working to right the engines, hauling in all supplies (including 5-gallon buckets of ballast) by snowmobile in the winter. The Maine Forest Service is turning this area into a display, including plans to restore a small portion of the tramway.
The equipment was left in-situ, and over the years the forest has regrown around things.
(http://www.wwfry.org/pics/Eagle_lake/elwb-1.jpg)
The track is now a path.
(http://www.wwfry.org/pics/Eagle_lake/elwb-2.jpg)
Locomotive #1, a 2-8-0 from I think the New York Central.
(http://www.wwfry.org/pics/Eagle_lake/elwb-3.jpg)
Locomotive #2, I'm not sure where it was from. It had a wooden cab which burned in the fire.
(http://www.wwfry.org/pics/Eagle_lake/elwb-4.jpg)
The tramway remnants (on the left of the picture).
(http://www.wwfry.org/pics/Eagle_lake/elwb-5.jpg)
So how does this tie in with the WW&F?
About a dozen years ago, when Fred Morse joined the museum, he told us about seeing rail lying on the side of a logging road up in the north Maine woods. He may have even seen it lying on the ground when he and his family were hunting in the woods as a child. The search started to find out who we needed to contact and if we could get the rail.
The ownership search ended up being an essentially dead-end, but the story doesn't end there. Sometime around 10 years ago, Harry Crooker (owner of Harry Crooker & Sons) was either approached by us or approached us with rail to donate. Turns out this rail was from the Eagle Lake and West Branch! Additionally he had one of the Plymouth locomotives that was also used on the line. We could not take it, I don't know what happened to it.
You don't need to use a canoe to reach these locations, you can drive a car to within one mile of it, and then hike in. I believe someone in our group led several people up to the locos several years ago.
You can find out a little bit more about the area at this site: http://www.maine.gov/doc/parks/history/allagash/rr.htm (http://www.maine.gov/doc/parks/history/allagash/rr.htm)
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If I know my RR law, following abandonment the land use and any improvements would revert to the original landowners. Since over time the "landowner" is now the state of Maine due to it being a state park. I would recommend talking to your local state rep and senator and if possible the Gov's office and request the donation of the rail to the museum. We would most likely have to go hunt it down and bring it out.
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I believe both engines are ex-NYC.
As far as any rail that is still there - in my opinion, it should be left there.
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I had the pleasure of visiting that area about 10 years ago - looks better now that it did then. We flew in so we could see a bit of the rail line where it crossed a swampy area - rail dipped into the water from the remnants of an old trestle.
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Some years ago, Fred, Jason, and I went on an exploratory trip up there. We found a rail pile along the side of Grande Marche Road in area 5E of DeLorme Atlas Map 55. We were unsuccessful in finding out anything about it. The folks in a local lumber camp could only speak French (or at least acted that way). We also followed some of the rails in nearby woods, but it was very, very difficult going. When I visited Grande Marche Road the next year, the rail pile was gone.
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I believe both engines are ex-NYC.
As far as any rail that is still there - in my opinion, it should be left there.
Ed, Eagle Lake No.1 was never a NYC engine, it was built in 1897 by the Schenectady Locomotive Works for the Chicago, Hammond and Western.
Keith
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Thanks for posting the pictures. I've always been fascinated with this and have always wanted to go up there. The section between Humason and Trask is built with rail from Eagle Lake/Crooker...correct?
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John;
You are only partially correct in your assumption about ownership of abandoned R.O.W. First, abandonment is a technical term not necessrilly tied to not using it for a period of time. If the RR owned the land in fee (i.e. purchased it) it would not revert to the abutting owners unless the RR deeded it back. If the railroad had done a taking of an easement (in the legal sense) it indeed would revert back to the abuttting owners upon abandonment. My analysis is based on Massachusetts law but Maine common law is similar due, in part, to it having once been part of the Commonwealth.
Dave
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In 2006 My wife & I, with friends, made the trip to see the forgotten trains of the Eagle Lake and West Branch Railroad. I would recommend the trip but, do your homework first. I have just put on You Tube just a few photos that I thought folks might like to see.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8G2LMPOqFlk (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8G2LMPOqFlk)
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Hi folks,
Spent a lot of time investigating the EL&WB and climbing in, over and literally under the locomotives. (I headed up the effort to jack the locomotives out of the mud and reconstruct the roadbed) The railroad ceased operations in September 1933. It was never chartered. The 13 miles from Eagle Lake to Umbazooksus was constructed and operated by Lacroix's Madawaska Co. The lower 5 miles from Umbazooksus to Chesuncook Meadows was built by Great Northern paper. In the 1960's (I can't recall the exact date) Lacroix sold his holdings including the railroad to Irving Pulp and Paper - they then deeded the tramway area to the state of Maine to become part of the Allagash wilderness.
Interestingly this caused quite a stir because the deed to the state indicated that it was the whole 13 miles of right of way was being handed over to the state - needless to say the other land owners were a bit concerned!
The right of way today is owned by a hodge podge of owners with Seven Island being the most prominent. They consider the old roadbed to be of historical significance and are quite careful not to cut it over. Most of the rail from the trestle south has been removed with the exception of about 1/2 mile still in place at Umbazooksus.
It would be nice if what does remain stays in place.
For more information see my posting here:http://www.railroad.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=126&t=47550&p=652667#p652667 (http://www.railroad.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=126&t=47550&p=652667#p652667)
Also my article that appeared in the "Narrow Gauge and Shortline Gazette (July/August 2007)
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Great info Terry. I went both forward and backward on the link you provided and there are some great other pics as well as informative reading. Thanks for sharing your experiences.
I first became aware of these locos through a co-worker who has a hobby of canoeing and hiking the back woods of Maine. He stumbled across the locos and the remains of the trestlework over the lake. He shared his "find" with me knowing I enjoy all things railroad and wondering if I could shed light on his "find". Later, I found a book with a nice article and pictures of the same area (book not with me at this moment so the name is lost for now). I was then able to explain what had been found to my co-worker but the whole thing simply fueled my interest. Since I am unlikely to get to that area to view the remains first-hand this whole thread has become quite interesting to me.
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Terry, the story about the locos being pulled across the frozen lakes by Lombard is well known, and was first told to me by Albert Hale, who photographed the remains of the operation in the 1960's. Can you elaborate on why you think this story is not true? And how you came to doubt the story, etc.
Thanks!
Stephen
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Stephen, the story I heard....as well as being common practise in logging territory was the locomotives were run there under their own power on temporary tracks laid on the frozen lake. Why pull them with a Lombard, when you are going to have to build temporary tracks anyhow? You don't want to haul them with all of the weight on the flanges, so they would either have to build tracks, or drag them on gigantic sledges. I wonder how successful a Lombard would be dragging something that heavy with the friction of a gigantic flat bottomed sled? (I don't think they make sled runners big enough to support that much weight)If you are building tracks anyhow....then just fire up the locos and run them.
Keith
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Check out the photos in this link. you will find #2 in two halfs (upper and lower) behind a Lombard.
http://news.webshots.com/album/87490988zpckXX
Ed--
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NEAT!!! Did you notice the halves are on sleds?
Keith
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Stephen,
Unfortunatly the story of the locomotives being hauled in over the lakes has been told so often and for so long its become fact to most folks. Its totally un-substantiated.
The first I heard of them being hauled overland (through the woods) was via Edwin Robichaud (deceased) Edwin's Great Uncle worked as camp cook at Tramway and Ed and his brother spent summer's there. His ealiest recollection is of carrying lunch to the crews swamping and grading the line. Later he went on the payroll. We had a long corrospondence until his death. Anyway - when I asked him about hauling the locomotives over the ice he was emphatic that they never traveled an inch over the lakes. In fact he drew a neat map showing the route.
Later we substantiated his claim both on the ground and with ancidotal evidence and photographs. In fact, today you can still walk and see traces of thier route. One of Edwins jobs was transfering oil from the tank sleds to the big storage tanks. He talked about the Lombards hauiling oil and how you could hear them as they rounded the corner at the outlet of Russell Brook. Again this serves as additional evidence that the route was overland.
One thing to remember is that all the rail, pulpcars, oil everything had to be hauled overland in the winter. Lacroix used this route to move everything. In fact Edwin talked of riding a big workhorse over the trail to Churchill on ocassion during the summer. So with this in mind one has to ask the question why construct an overland route if you can haul across the ice? Simple - a good haulroad will remain usable longer and is of course safer than a series of lakes with open water at the narrows. You also must remember that the big 2-8-0 didn't arrive at Tramway till late March. In fact the day after it arrived it began to rain and the roads became impassable.
Another myth is the passing siding at Ellis Brook. I have the orginal alignment plan/profiles (and original blueprints for the Allagash Stream trestle) - other than the two sidings at the top of the grade coming out of tramway there are none shown. In fact when we counted all the pulpcars we came up with 45. That means 15 being unloaded, 15 in transit and 15 being loaded. (average train was 12-15 cars) Needless to say that means only one locomotive at a time. In addition the production records bear this out as well.
Mr. Robichaud also refuted this claim and was insistent that the only thing at Ellis Brook was the trestle, a hovel and bunkhouse used when they built the line. Oh yes, and the Vikery family who lived down near the mouth of the brook.
The story of the Eagle Lake & West Branch railroad is absolutly fascinating. My first exposure to it was a story penned by Jim Shaugnessy. At the time I thought - Thats it? There's no more information? Little did I know the path that question would lead me down.
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[/quote]
Ed, Eagle Lake No.1 was never a NYC engine, it was built in 1897 by the Schenectady Locomotive Works for the Chicago, Hammond and Western.
Keith
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The Chicago, Hammond & Western became part of the Indiana Harbor Belt which was part of the NYC. In fact the flag holders on No. 1 (the 4-6-0) are marked as Mohawk and Hudson Railroad.
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Very Grainy photo from a Quebec newspaper showing boiler of No. 2 in a compromising position during the move to Tramway.
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Terry---
With all the knowledge and information you have gathered, a book would be a wonderful thing for you to put together. Even if it mostly a picture book with captions explaining things like the road they made for bring in the equipment, fuel and other supplies. It would be too bad for this information not to be recorded and lost forever.
Ed Deere
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Ed,
Belive me the thought has crossed my mind more than once. The problem is I keep finding new info!
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If your interested in Lombards (the beasts used to haul the locomotives to tramway) here is a link to an article I wrote a while back.
http://oldsnowplowequipment.wetpaint.com/page/Lombard+Loghaulers+and+Tractors (http://oldsnowplowequipment.wetpaint.com/page/Lombard+Loghaulers+and+Tractors)
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Terry, thanks so much for posting here. Nothing beats being "on the ground" and doing your own research. And I agree, a book would be a very worthwhile endeavor.
Stephen
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Ed, Eagle Lake No.1 was never a NYC engine, it was built in 1897 by the Schenectady Locomotive Works for the Chicago, Hammond and Western.
Keith
[/quote]
The Chicago, Hammond & Western became part of the Indiana Harbor Belt which was part of the NYC. In fact the flag holders on No. 1 (the 4-6-0) are marked as Mohawk and Hudson Railroad.
[/quote]
Hi Terry,
The NYC was a majority stock holder in the IHB, but the IHB was not part of the New York Central System. It is still a seperate Class 3 railroad. I'm pretty sure that had the IHB been a part of the NYC, it would have been absorbed in either the Penn Central or Conrail mergers. It is not surprising to find NYC parts on the loco, as heavy repairs may well have been done at a NYC shop. Many shortlines farm out heavy repairs to Class 1 roads. There is a nice history of the IHB at this web page: http://www.dhke.com/ihbarchive/ihbhst.html
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And YES, I know it's been about six months since this discussion took place, BUT I happen to think it was one of the best posts of 2010. Last week a few of my Smithfield coffee buddies took the 250+ mile snowmobile trip out of Jackman, Maine to view this FANTASTIC (Their Words) piece of Maine. Maybe new members of the Discussion Forum did not catch this, others might like a review, and there is plenty of information hidden in the attached links to occupy several hours of winter doledrums. For many of us a trip like this can only be done thru other eyes. Gosh, it's GREAT to know when we take a ride on the WW&F behind our own #10, we are riding on iron of The Eagle Lake & West Branch. I've shared this Discussion frequently with folks never before acquainted with our WW&F Museum, and without fail I'm told they enjoyed the trip. Discussions like this one are a reason our Museum has remained strong in an era when others are failing. And the story goes on: How did they get there?
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Just an aside concerning the EL&WB rails.
Very, very few of Lacroix's men had ever built or even worked on a railroad before. This lead to a few problems. They purchased rail through the Quebec Central. In due course, in early 1927, five carloads of rail, joint bars, spikes etc. arrived at Lac Frontiere. The gentleman responsible for purchasing the rail noticed that there were three weights from three diffrent mills. Not knowing any better he accepted the order and it was moved by Lombard tractor to Tramway. With the rails loaded on sleds the joint bars ,spikes etc. were piled on the back deck of the tractors to add useful traction. A round trip to Tramway and back by tractor took about 20 hours and burned-up nearly 160 gallons of gasoline per tractor.
Later when rails were changed out (which was very often) it was a nightmare trying to match-up and keep on hand the appropriate joint bars. Rather than follow standard practice (i.e. light rail for sidings etc. and heavy for the mainline) they used alll three weights on the mainline!
The track was laid very hastly and not to a high standard - insufficent ballast, fill's where bridge work should have been, narrow crown. etc. This plus the initial 24 hour schedule led to lots of derailments etc. At one point to combat this Mr. Lessard the supt. shut down the operation for an entire week and placed all available manpower on track and rolling stock maintence.
In 1928 the schedule was altered to a 15 hour day or 5 trains per day minimum rather than the 24 hour schedule.
Your rails do indeed have a bit of history.
Best regards,
Terry Harper
(http://lh5.ggpht.com/_V74XWPpIFSc/TUczshz_UkI/AAAAAAAAAJE/acyCRdy2-NU/s640/IP-05.jpg)
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Where on the WW&F was this rail used? I should know, but I've forgotten.
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I believe the Crooker rail was used from Humason trestle to Trask Crossing. Fred wrote an article about our rail some years ago.
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I can see the sign now "Your are now riding the rails of the EL&WB" ;D
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Glad to know the rails we aren't the first with the joint bar problem. Joint bars. We have a pile of joint bars. Don't fit anything we are using, but we have a pile of them.
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I've had the idea for some time to create a map showing the lineage of the rail on our system-- there's a wide and interesting variation. Through the southern 2/3 of cock-eye curve was guard-rail from the standard gauge trestle in Wiscasset- presumably (though not certainly) it was once main line rail on the Knox and Lincoln RR. I've also thought the Eagle Lake and West Branch lineage was worth sharing with our visitors. I wonder the lineage of our rail from Kovalchick Salvage (i.e.- where did he get it from?)...
Jason
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I sense a possible newsletter article ;D
-John
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The rail from Trask up to and beyond Alna Center came from the Aberdeen & Rockfish RR in North Carolina, and some of the rail beyond Albee's came from the Gardner, Mass. furniture factory. Based on the mill markings on the Kovalchick rail, I believe much of it came from Canada. Both Canadian Pacific and Canadian National had miles and miles and miles of branch lines laid with 60-pound rail. There is some 50-pound rail that came from the Narragansett Pier RR in Rhode Island, too.
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I list the following as being used on the Eagle Lake & West Branch:
Darlington 56#
Cammell 70#
Barrow 79#
Does this reference with what you have?
Now for a treat - a ride on the EL&WB circa 1966! ;D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m-gtPiqlTLc (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m-gtPiqlTLc)
Best regards,
Terry Harper
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Wow -thanks for the link! I could make that footage look MUCH better. The film itself seems to be in excellent condition...
Terry, who has the original film?
Stephen
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Stephen,
The original 8mm film was shot my a gentleman by the name of Joel Marsh. Iam not sure if he is still alive or not. I can check. Years ago I was given my copy on VHS. There is a lot more footage - mostly a large - well organized youth group traveling through the Allagash.
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I've had the idea for some time to create a map showing the lineage of the rail on our system-- there's a wide and interesting variation.
I'll be happy to volunteer to take on the task of making the map. All I would need is someone knowledgeable to "walk the line" with me and a GPS. I could envision it also including stats as far as rail length and type of joint bars used so to have it that information easily accessible whenever we need to swap out a rail.
PM/email me if you want to proceed.
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Ed,
I hope someone has and is recording all the various details, history, people, events, and happenings behind the museum. Yes, you folks are preserving history but.... in the process your making history yourselves and its no doubt a remarkable story. Recored it, gather it, protect it - then share it! ;D
Pictures, facts dates and figures are only valuable if they have the story of the people who made them.
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I hope someone has and is recording all the various details, history, people, events, and happenings behind the museum.
I started doing that several years ago. Steve Hussar is recording the interviews. I'm hoping to eventually put out a book about the Museum's history, but we'll see. I wished I had started before Clarissa died, but it was the death of first president Starr Edgerton a year or two later that got me going on it.
My main interest in the interviews is getting down what happened before I arrived in 1994. People's memories fade over 20 years....
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I hope someone has and is recording all the various details, history, people, events, and happenings behind the museum. Yes, you folks are preserving history but.... in the process your making history yourselves and its no doubt a remarkable story. Record it, gather it, protect it - then share it! ;D Pictures, facts dates and figures are only valuable if they have the story of the people who made them.
This is a very perceptive line of thought. Today's day-to-day problems often keep us too busy to remember our role in making tomorrow's history. We owe a great debt of gratitude to our ancestors who recorded the events of their time, and we have an obligation to our successors to do likewise.
Our videos and newsletters provide some record of our activities, and as newsletter editor I would like to see more articles about some of the details of our work. The articles in the January/February issue about the design decisions and rail procurement associated with the Fall Work Weekend track replacement project are a step in that direction. I am hoping to get some information from Zack about the design of the water tower flow control system, and I would like to pursue the rail history that Jason mentioned earlier in this thread,. If anyone has any other ideas (or better yet, words ;)), please let me know by PM or posting.
-John
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WOW! Do we dig up great stuff when we examine bones we buried last year? Saw the last week camera pix today on a visit to Jackman. That Loco on the right still has it's headlight. I was so afraid those rascal pilferers would abscond with a most photogenic prize. Whoever put it on must have welded the bolts to keep it there. Thanks Terry for adding fuel to the fire box . The guy who led the snowmobile pack is a building jacker, and when I told him those Locos were laid on their side in the mud, and volunteers packed supplies in to get them to where they are today, he couldn't imagine the task.
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Glen,
The original headlight disapeared many, many years ago. The Cole Transportation Museum donate an identical unit. The crew did indeed weld it on.
Other items such as the injectors, and fittings for the jacketing are in storage.
Thanks for the complement - The crew we had was amazing. Even though none of us had ever done anything like this we knew we could do and thats all we needed.
Below are some photos for you to share with your friends:
September 25, 1996. This what we started with.
(http://lh4.ggpht.com/_V74XWPpIFSc/TUi0PcjGWtI/AAAAAAAAAJo/5c_GerqDTww/s640/img151.jpg)
June 8, 1997. The crew varied but we had a large number who kept coming back.
I guess they liked crawling around in the mud in the middle of nowhere.
(http://lh3.ggpht.com/_V74XWPpIFSc/TUi0PjB4KJI/AAAAAAAAAJs/mCOFgL93uaI/s640/img155.jpg)
At one point we had the to slide the big engine sidewise. That was a heart stopper.
(http://lh4.ggpht.com/_V74XWPpIFSc/TUi0QCI3GwI/AAAAAAAAAJw/H2whaHwosFA/s640/img152.jpg)
Once the locomotives were up on blocking it was all pick and shovel work
(http://lh6.ggpht.com/_V74XWPpIFSc/TUi0QdeEizI/AAAAAAAAAJ0/D03ycou6iDQ/s640/img156.jpg)
This project was such a great experience. It changed my life. I became a doer and that has given me the confidence that I know I can accomplish just about anything I set my mind too.
You guys are doer's too and have my respect.
Best regards,
Terry Harper
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Now just for fun.... I have mentioned Lombard tractors several times in this thread.... ever wonder what one sounds like?
Imagine a massive six cylinder T-head engine (17.9 liters) barking through three short exhaust stubs.
....Hmmm why am I describing it when you can hear it for yourself!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aEcNpp7mj6U (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aEcNpp7mj6U)
This is my friend Don Johnson's 10 ton Lombard tractor - it was one of many owned by Lacroix and used to haul pulpwood, supplies, oil etc. to support the EL&WB. Its the only gasoline Lombard operating with its original engine. Don has equiped it with wheels for convienence. He has a set of ski's for it too.
I apologize for the shakey camera work - It was a combination of the noise - it is very loud! benign tremors and just being so amped-up ;D
Crank the volumn and enjoy!
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Terry, that sounds great. The last time I had an opportunity to hear a Lombard tractor was in Harrison, ME about 10 years ago. Unfortunately, it was running on compressed air due to the lack of a certification for the boiler. Running it that way required a huge portable compressor and a hundred or so feet of hose. There is a gathering each year called "Back to the Past at Scribner's Mill" during early August where many antique equipment pieces are showcased.
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Tremendous! Thanks, Terry!!
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Duncan, that Lombard that was in Harrison was originally steam powered. Too bad they couldn't have steamed it up for that event. The one in the video is a later version of the tractor, with a 6 cylinder gas engine. Impressive how things evolve.
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The steam Lombard you saw at Scribner Mills was the late Harry Crooker's. To our benefit its now working under steam rather than compressed air. In fact you can see it under steam at the Owls Transportation Museum's Winterfest. Feb. 26 & 27th.
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Yes, I was hoping it would regain the ability to be run under steam again. It was impressive just to see it run under compressed air. Who knows, perhaps at some future assemblage at Scribner's Mill the Lombard will return and be steamed-up again.
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Going back a moment to the video of the rail car that Terry posted. The woman in the Video is Dorothy B. Kidney. My wife was able to identify her because she was a school teacher in the town of Washburn, Maine. One of the men most likely is her husband Milford Kidney. Here is a link to their obituaries http://freepages.folklore.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~jankidney/MilfordKidney.htm (http://freepages.folklore.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~jankidney/MilfordKidney.htm) . Dorothy wrote about living their summers at Lock Dam, just a short distance from where the two locomotives are now sitting.
In the video is a cabin. Now maybe Terry can help me here. At first I thought it possibly was the cabin at Lock Dam. But I think the porch was added years later than the sixty’s. And the two up-stair windows do not look right to me. Plus there is what I think is a Forestry Service sign, on the cabin, in the video. Now the biggest part was they show the rail car right behind the cabin. I do not believe the tracks ever came over to Lock Dam. Having in the summer of 2006 exploring some of the area, Can you fill me in where this cabin is or was?
Ed Deere
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Hello Ed,
I use to carry groceries for Dorthy and she taught for my Dad when he was Principle in Washburn. They were Great people.
The camp is the Forestry camp at Tramway. It was burned in 1969. The Kidney's camp at Lock Dam is still there.
As for the track - After the railroad closed they removed part of the Wye (The section running east/west behind the boarding house) and relaid it from the switch at the mouth of the cut down to the water. In fact, if you follow the west leg from the mainline switch you can see where it runs off the roadbed.
Whether the Forest Service did this or Lacroix's men when they were moving stuff out has not been determined.
Below is a color view looking south from the water. To the left of the Forest service camp you can see the shelter over the well, The east/west leg of the wye ran just behind the buildings from left to right. The tail of the wye would have been on the far right. The boardinghouse is just out of sight on the far left.
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/_V74XWPpIFSc/TUwGa33VVlI/AAAAAAAAALE/guSaqRwdvyg/s640/Tramway-01%201960.jpg)
This Photo below is looking slightly northeast towards the lake. The large building is the boardinghouse the east/west leg of the wye ran east/west past the boardinghouse and well shelter between where the photographer was standing.
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/_V74XWPpIFSc/TUwF8aucMRI/AAAAAAAAALA/y9ixLb898FU/s640/scan0015.jpg)
And finally here is a view below of No. 2 sitting on the wye by the well shelter. (this is looking south west) It's in position to back west down the Wye and then forward up the west leg out to the maineline. The track seen in the film (and still in place today) cuts across just behind the tender. The Forestry camp is out of site to the right. Note the hose from the steam dome and running towards the well. Any idea? Steam cleaning the boarding house? (Ha, ha) I do have a letter from Lacroix saying that it was infested with bedbugs!
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/_V74XWPpIFSc/TUwKhUTVG0I/AAAAAAAAALM/fehDIMBSeq0/s576/03.jpg)
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This is a great thread! I have been enjoying reading it and looking at the photos. Please keep it coming! And yes, the WB&EL rail was laid from just a bit north of Humason trestle to Trask Crossing, or just shy of it. Some of it was badly bent or kinked and we've replaced a few sticks but it sure was a godsend at a time when money for rail was hard to come by. Harry Crooker offered us that Plymouth Loco and I went down with a few of the guys to look at it and the rail and the loco was in sad shape and we declined the offer and took just the rail. The loco may still be sitting in the gravel pit near Harry's house, who knows? There were a couple of very old trucks sitting there, too, in an advanced state of deterioration.
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Dana,
I would love to see the Plymouth and of course the old trucks. Do you have any contacts with the Crooker family?
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Here is a map of Tramway I created a number of years ago. It was published with an article I wrote for The Narrow Gauge & Shortline Gazette. July/Aug. 2007
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/_V74XWPpIFSc/TUyFPLjadGI/AAAAAAAAALQ/ScXXCN2G-Wc/s640/Tram%20Map.JPG)
Here is part of a Plan/Profile Dated March 1927. I have a full set from Tramway to Umbazooksus plus engineering drawings for the clear spans of the trestle. Note that these drawings were produced by Great Northern Paper. In the profile section at the top of the page you can see the 2.1% grade out of Tramway through the "Big Cut" The switch at the gravel pit and siding is a three-way stub switch while with the exception of the engine house track all others are point switches.
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/_V74XWPpIFSc/TUyIJBbHPAI/AAAAAAAAALc/li4zSbTnRBk/Plan-Profile.JPG)
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Did you know there was a "Narrow Gauge railroad" at Tramway? ;D
Edwin Robichaud and his brother built this little coaster railroad behind their Great Uncle Sam's cabin. They used two trucks from the Tramway (22" gauge) joined together (with the help of the blacksmith) and some old Tramway rail with the help of Old John the horse to move them. Edwin called it his "Scenic railroad". Amazingly the little "Locomotive" still survives in a private collection and when we were poking around where Sam's camp was we found a length of Tramway rail.
So you will have to add the "Tramway Scenic Railroad" to the Narrow gauge list. ;D
I love finding Little gems like this that bring history alive and make it human.
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/_V74XWPpIFSc/TUyNdx5QffI/AAAAAAAAALg/2Ap2Q3CIQgk/s640/RO-14.jpg)
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Just think about what has happened here in the past few days. People who had no previous contact with each other have reconstructed facts not revealed elsewhere. Our very alive site has brought items into the picture that were lost in time. We've added two pages to a year old discussion, stuff not ever brought into the frey. Folks, This Discussion Forum has to be one of the best. How fortunate we are to have a platform where history can be viewed while a snowbank holds us captive. And to get a first hand player involved is as good as it gets. Long Live The WW&F Railway Museum!
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Wow Terry, You sure have filled in some blanks. Thanks for sharing your photos and drawings. My wife and I are thinking we need to go back again. When we went before we camped at Indian Stream and canoed up Eagle to the tramway. That last 1/2 mile of paddling into the wind was real work. I understand you can drive in, with-in a mile, and walk in from the north.
And my wife remembers Principle Harper
Ed Deere
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Ed, Ys you can drive within two miles. Once on the trail its not too hard to follow.
Ok, one more tidbit:
For many years - well into the 1950's - the Tramway boardinghouse sported a fancy weathervane. Edwin Robichaud first mentioned it to me. It wasn't until last month that I found proof of it in several photos of the boardinghouse. Here it is below - its hard to makeout but it is indeed a locomotive and tender. By the time the boardinghouse collapsed in the late 1960's it was gone. I wonder where it is today?
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/_V74XWPpIFSc/TUy57_aD-xI/AAAAAAAAALk/m2TnLzgmrGc/loco-weather%20vane.jpg)
And here is a application to Lacroix for employment on the railroad. I beleive Mr. Vachon ended up as an engineer but I will need to recheck my records.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/_V74XWPpIFSc/TUy9HAQWSZI/AAAAAAAAALo/T6TPPgVFwH0/Application.JPG)
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Thank you Terry. Those maps help place things for me better. And I love those pictures. I will play with the weathervane one to see if I can make it bigger.
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Went over to the Great Falls Model Railroad Club's library last night and signed out a copy of the July/Aug 2007, Narrow Gauge and Short Line Gazette. The 5 page article (Maine's Eagle Lake & West Branch Railroad) that Terry wrote is excellent. It has not only the historical facts but, local individuality and flavor. The side account of the pilot who lands his plane, and exclaimed he followed the railroad to both ends is countless. (I will not deprive the punch line). If you have access to the publication, and you have interest in the Eagle Lake & West Branch Railroad, I would recommend you check this out.
Ed Deere
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Thanks Ed,
Like most research projects since that article was published a lot more has come to light. Some mysteries have been solved while others have been created!
For instance:
If your standing at the switch that leads to the individual engine stalls you will notice that the track that should lead to No. 1 simply does not line-up with where No. 1 is resting. In addition the track ends just behind No. 1's tender while the track for No. 2 continues for some distance.
Thats as things are today. Now here comes the twist. Photo's taken in the 1960's clearly show that there was no door in front or behind No. 1!! Its as if the enginehouse was built around it.
Yet..... I have photos taken just before the end of operations which also shows no door in front of No. 1 while the photos clearly show No. 1 sitting behind the enginehouse. Yes I suppose a temporary switch could have been installed behind the enginehouse but.....why are there no doors? Its as if once moved into place they boarded it in!
Below is a photo looking at the front of the enginehouse. The track and doors are in front of No. 2. The hinges etc. for the doors in front of No. 1 should be clearly visible near the sapling on the right. But all we see are the hinges for one leaf of No. 2's door
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/_V74XWPpIFSc/TVl7OCy7eFI/AAAAAAAAAMs/oUOA-rxp3c8/s576/scan0018.jpg)
This photo is looking at the back of the enginehouse - again, the doors shown are directly behind No. 2. If there was a door behind No. 1 it would be too the left. There is nothing (butted boards etc) to indicate that there was ever a door there.
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/_V74XWPpIFSc/TVl7P09ngoI/AAAAAAAAAMw/-lmmmfbcQfA/s576/scan0019.jpg)
Here is a view looking from the inside: Note the full height studs etc. in front of No. 1. To the far right you can see the hinges and door (partially open) in front of No. 2. Note that the doors in front of No. 2 are off center - in other words the opening extends beyond the center of the building and how close the jamb is in relation to No. 1. In my opinion there was never a door there!
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/_V74XWPpIFSc/TVl8vQ9h4HI/AAAAAAAAAM0/vzkll8qLcKA/s512/scan0008.jpg)
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Pictures really don't show how the tracks lined up. When was the enginehouse built?
And the doors look wide enough to accomodate two tracks in the first photo. Any other angles?
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Here are some Photos Glenn shared with me. Taken this winter.
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2006-11/1225939/ELWB5.jpg)
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2006-11/1225939/ELWB9.jpg)
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Terry Harper, it's been a long while since we talked about the EL&WB. I would dearly love a print of engine #2 standing by the well on the wye track which you posted here. That's only the second photo of one of the engines in operation there that I've ever seen.
Please let me know how to arrange to get a print of that. My snail mail address is:
Richard W. Symmes
16 Frankwood Ave.
Beverly, MA 01915
email me at: ellis1947@comcast.net
Thanks for sharing all this terrific material.
Richard Symmes
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Mike,
Here is a vintage photo taken from the north west. You can clearly see the double doors. There is only one set. No.1 was positioned tight to the south walls of the shed. There is no way both engine could have used the same door.
If you look carefully you can see No. 1 sitting behind the shed.
The building to the left housed the steam donkey engine they used to shift the cars beneath the conveyors via a cable and pulley setup. This saved fuel and the clutch on the Plymouth.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/_V74XWPpIFSc/TXA2yyKXPpI/AAAAAAAAAP4/HDaeXqaaU7w/s288/tramway12a.jpg)
Here is the complete photo - note the conveyors etc.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/_V74XWPpIFSc/TXA57YkZWXI/AAAAAAAAAQE/plc9zZcbqh0/s640/tramway12.jpg)
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Very interesting photo. This is an angle I have not seen before, nor have I ever seen the shed. It clearly does not have a door on the right hand side were number 1 sits today. Also the shed looks to be the same age as the other structures in the photo. Ruling out the fact that perhaps #1 was boxed in at a later date from this end. And looks like operations are still going on. On my computer I am hard put to see much more than silhouette of a locomotive behind the shed.
Ed
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Thanks Terry. Great shots. Now I am still curious as to when the shed was boarded in. I have seen photos where the end wall is missing and you can see both locomotives (long after abandonment). I don't recall if there was a post in between the bays or even how the wall was built. I will have to dig and report my findings.
Thanks for keeping this going. A very interesting and facinating piece of Maine history.
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Here is another photo tken just before abandonment (Sept. 1933) During that last season only 24 trains were hauled to Umbazooksus.
This is looking directly south from the lake. Note the two conveyors middle as well as the shelter for the donkey engine. (far right) Also notice the third conveyor (far left) has been removed - only the shelter for its Fairbanks-Morse diesel remains. Two of these diesels survive at Churchill.
Also, again looking closely - No. 1 sitting behind the shed.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/_V74XWPpIFSc/TXJANuq2u8I/AAAAAAAAAQY/VsTI5E2ezzU/s640/Conveyor3.JPG)
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So, short of levitation by space aliens in the Allagash woods, how did #1 end up where it is if there were no doors on the enginehouse on that side? What are the most popular theories? Enquiring minds want to know!
Richard Symmes
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Richard,
No. 1 was a problem child. In fact there is correspondence between Lacroix and the General Equipment Company, from whom they purchased the locomotive, accusing them of purchasing the locomotive from its previous owner (Grasse River) for scrap value and palming it onto Lacroix for a nice profit. They of course denied it
Pipes were clogged, flues leaked, linkages were rusted solid, tires were flat spotted, (we found a tubular ring used with acetylene to heat tires for expanding and fitting) and one manifold pipe to the steam chest leaked badly. (at least one of these pipes is still on-site) In fact there is some doubt as to wether the Grasse River even ran this locomotive after they purchased it from the Potato Creek. Again, Lacroix's men were not railroad men. The price was right so Lacroix bought it. Sort of like me buying a used nuclear reactor. In fact, the records show that over 60% of the total lost time due to locomotive malfunction from August 1927 through Sept. 1933 was tallied-up by No. 1 in that first brief 1927 season! :o
One source states that Lacroix was offered two MEC locomotives used on the Kineo branch (formally Someset railroad) However, I have doubts about this. I do have a letter from the MEC comparing two Kineo branch locomotives to Lacroix's and listing fuel consumption. - Lacroix was obsessed with fuel consumption. In fact there is a letter where he complained about one engineer using 16 gallons per trip more than another! Eventually the MEC sent an engineer with oil burner experience to the EL&WB to teach them how to be more fuel efficent. He in fact burned more oil than Lacroix's worst engineer.
Once No. 2 arrived in March of 1928 the incidences of locomotive malfunctions decreased dramaticly. Admittedly in 1928 Lacroix cut back from a 24 hour schedule (General Equipment cited over-use and lack of maintence to blame for the breakdowns) to insisting on a minimum of 5 trains per day wether it took 8 hours or 15. This of course colors the data.
Does this mean No. 1 was never used again? No. According to Edwin Robichaud (former employee) No. 1 became the spare. Unfortunatly the records do not distinquish between the locomotives so we don't know how often it was called back into service. We know it was still in use in 1928 because there is a letter stating that they changed-out the burner unit for the same type used in No. 2.
I think at the close of the operation No. 1 was pretty much dead. However they still considered it valuable enough to move into the shed. I suspect they installed a temporary switch behind No. 2 and removed it afterwords. Again, this is speculation with no hard proof.
To add more confusion, the engine house shown in the previously posted photos from 1933 is not the original. Photo's from 1927 and the March, 1927 alignment drawing (see below) shows it located on the other side of the Tramway with only one lead track. This provides support for my theory that No. 2 was an emergency purchase and that Lacroix's original, albiet, nieve plan was to have only one locomotive - No. 1
Best regards,
Terry Harper
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/_V74XWPpIFSc/TXUgy7Z1d3I/AAAAAAAAAQs/KuFMYk4YnmE/engine%20shed.JPG)
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Very nice stuff Terry. Interesting as well. Plenty of questions as to why they did what they did. You seem to have a lot of answers to a lot of the puzzling questions. Thanks again for keeping this thread going.
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Thanks Terry,
I guess we may never know all the answers to these mysteries. But you sure have more of them than anyone else I've known. Have you considered publishing a book on the EL&WB? If not, I wish you would, as I'm sure do many other people.
Thanks for sharing all your knowledge.
Richard Symmes
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I proposed a documentary about this to PBS in 1983, which obviously never got off the ground. But I didn't know Terry then! Maybe now is the time?
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Hello Stephen,
Back during the stabilization project I did a segment for MPBN 's "True North" It was a short interview mostly concerned with the project. I also did one for WBLZ(?) out of Boston. The "Oh my gosh!!" (caught on tape) from the camera crew and host as we rounded the corner and they saw the locomotives for the first time was worth the effort.
It would make an intersting documentary - not only in regards to the railroad etc. but to the culture and people that surrounded it. Here, isolated from the rest of the state, and all but forgotten, a small community with family's, a school, etc grew, thrived and died. It was indeed like a Quebec village dropped in middle of the Maine woods. It is Maine's version of a ghost town.
When the operation shut-down some drifted back to Quebec many filtered to places such as Lewiston, Waterville etc. with strong Franco-American comunities.
While most if not all the parents who lived and worked there are gone - many of the children who grew up there are indeed still alive and have interesting family stories to tell.
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Some friends of mine and I visited the locomotives a few years ago. Although we were on a canoe trip, we approached from the west (land) side. While seeing some rails here and there suggests what's coming, it is still a thrilling "oh my gosh" moment to come upon the locomotives! I won't forget it!
-John
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Look at this angle. May need to zoom out once to see them.
http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&t=h&ll=46.322245,-69.376109&spn=0.002608,0.007328&z=17 (http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&t=h&ll=46.322245,-69.376109&spn=0.002608,0.007328&z=17)
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A fellow I have worked with for many years routinely hikes the back woods of Maine. He approached me a few years back with a tale of two locomotives leaning heavily in a clearing he came across while paddling and hiking in that area. Please undestand he has no interest in trains but he said pretty much the same thing John said. He approached from the water side and was initially interested (what?, why?)in the remains of the log-dump trestle. After he put in, he found the locos and was dumb-struck seeing them there in the middle of nowhere. He then found the remains of the tramway and other odds and ends of equipment. However, he was ever the good friend and took a number of pics of the assortment of train-related relics so that he could share it all with me. Through my due diligence and my many friends at the WW&F I was able to enlighten my friend with the details he was missing. He still has no interest in trains though.
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What kind of friend isn't interested in trains?
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I know Dave, I know, huh? That's why he's only a work friend.
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All are invited to the Great Falls Model Railroad Club House onThurday, April 21st to hear and see Terry Harper speak on the Eagle Lake and West Branch Railroad. The presentation starts at 7:00pm and Terry will have the floor for about an hour. If you have been following the forum here, Terry needs no introduction. However his research and knowledge about the Eagle Lake and West Branch Railroad is extremely extensive. So please be our guest (No Charge).
Ed Deere
Link to club Address and Location Map
http://www.greatfallsmodelrrclub.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=29&Itemid=47 (http://www.greatfallsmodelrrclub.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=29&Itemid=47)
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Is that going to be filmed and added to the Train Time series? That would be great.
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Just a reminder
All are invited to the Great Falls Model Railroad Club House next Thursday, April 21st to hear and see Terry Harper speak on the Eagle Lake and West Branch Railroad. The presentation starts at 7:00pm and will last about an hour. So please be our guest (No Charge).
Ed Deere
Link to club Address and Location Map
http://www.greatfallsmodelrrclub.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=29&Itemid=47
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Last night at The Great Fall Model Railroad Club Terry Harper did not disappoint us. His narrative throughout the slide show was superb. The story of why and how was most informative and interesting. Little side line stories filled with humor also gave you the sense of what life was like in the Maine woods in the early part of the 1900’s. It was a most interesting evening for those of us who were there. A gentleman from Mapleton made a trip all the way down just to see Terry’s presentation. (Mapleton is just West of Presque Isle).
This forum does, and has, the potential to promote the education of railroading not only in Maine but, throughout the world. Separating fact from fiction can be difficult however sharing history and keeping an interest is so important.
A public thank you to Terry for sharing with all of us last night. I think I can say for all of us in attendance that it was a most interesting presentation. A job well done!
A Great Falls Model Railroad Club member
Ed Deere
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Hello Ed,
Thank you so much!
It was an absolute pleasure to spend an evening with such a wonderful group.
Best regards,
Terry Harper
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On July 30th a group of 11,(men and women + a dog) from The Great Falls Model Railroad Club made the hike in to see the locomotives. The weather was just right for short pants and short sleeve shirts. More of the essence was the lack of insects. We found and looked at many of the artifacts that Terry Harper had told us about when he visited the club. Paul, our Train Time Video man has about two hours of videotape to work with. He is hopeful to get together with Terry and preserve information before it is lost forever.
We made camp on the upper end of Chesuncook Lake at Umbazooksus West Campground on Friday. Saturday morning we started out at 7:30 and drove about 18-20 mile and parked. The last ½ mile or so the vegetation has grown in a lot. So take an older vehicle that you do not mind scratching or plan on walking. The road base is very good but turning around is tight. Terry had given me GPS information and, I never would have found the way without them. The North Woods of Maine is very large and one can get lost in just moments. The groups’ age range consisted of folks from 52 to 73 and it took about 75 minutes to walk in. There are blow downs and mud to contend with so you do need to be in good health to make the walk. The group’s anticipation mounted when we came to the first part of the “Y”and found rail. Shortly we came onto the other side of the “Y” and found the sad remnants of a Lombard boiler. Then the forest opened up to the two passive giants resting entrenched in the forest. Although I have visited the site once before it took my breath away to see these two locomotives. We spent about 4 hours looking, exploring and eating our lunches. I myself took about 150 pictures during the weekend. I wanted to post a couple on this forum but have not figured out how to do so.
Ed Deere
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Hi Everyone
The Great Falls Model Railroad Club is having a Slide and Dine evening on Saturday October 20th. If you missed it the first time you now have a second chance to see Terry Harpers “From Nowhere to Nowhere”. It’s the legend of the Eagle Lake and West Branch Railroad left in the North Maine Woods. When Terry was here last time he really captivated his audience.
New will be Donovan Gray to share about narrow gauge railroad. Donovan comes from out west and now lives here in Maine. He is a member of the Maine Narrow Gauge Museum in Portland.
A $5 dollar donation for a spaghetti dinner will begin at 5:00pm.
Great Falls Model Railroad Club
144 Mill Street
Auburn Maine.
Thanks;
Ed
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Ed I am so pleased to be invited back! This year I have a revised and refined presentation with some new stories that will hopefully be enjoyable.
Here is a bit of a teaser. Hope to see you all there!
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-rr_zQ_F_EBU/UHr9zSFuabI/AAAAAAAABX4/tU-bo2XzFTA/s1024/Promo.jpg)
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-qOfJGi5MJkY/UHsAoL8di6I/AAAAAAAABYQ/kJLfMbCZxds/s1024/Promo3.jpg)
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As part of what seems to be my never ending quest for knowlege on the EL&WB and to solve a nagging mystery and put to bed a very enduring myth
we hiked the roadbed through Ellis Bog. i would not recommend this adventure to anyone! Of all the hikes I have taken this was the worst.
The total distance was only a little over three miles but it took us a solid five hours of hard slogging. By the end of it I was using my hands to help lift my legs over the
blow downs. Swamp complete with muskeg and picture plants, beaver punji sticks and what sounded like a large cat growling made for an interesting adventure (Yes, after hearing the alrge kitty growl and
being the brave explorer I stuffed my Slim Jim wrappers into my nieces backpack - she can run faster.)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-0j27yVWIwXQ/UKGXGx4CxZI/AAAAAAAABdc/CRj5qH5mPuw/s744/Ellis%2520Bog%2520Siding%2520Expedition.jpg)
Also found this picture from June of 1998 of us squishing pennies beneath the drivers of EL&WB No. 2. Yes, it was childish but... thats what happens when your let loose with four 60 ton jacks and a 188,000 lb steam locomotive. After we squished a bunch of pennies we placed shiney new 1998 pennies under the drivers and lowered it down for the last time. The idea came from a comment I made
during an interview with PBS. I had forgotten about it until Bonnie Steves pulled out a whole bag of 1998 pennies when we were about to lower No. 2 back on the rails. We did the same with No. 1
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-_nPiwJm0TxA/UKgXiE4-FaI/AAAAAAAABeM/8NCLwVA7wbs/s1152/img001.jpg)
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Just to bring this great topic back to the top again, Terry Harper is speaking this Saturday Jan. 12, 2013, 1 pm at Owls Head Museum. This is a free event and one railroad fans will not want to miss. Bring your kids and grandkids. They need to see this first hand and plan a trip. http://www.ohtm.org/new_edu.html
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I think I will make this one. I may just take James up on his offer to ride.
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I wish I could make this presentation that Terry is doing this weekend. Terry is a wonderful speaker who's presentation is very clear and easy to understand. The history leading to building the railroad to its closer is told with interesting facts and photos. It is a must see presentation!
Ed
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Unfortunately, for those of us "down here", the talk may as well be held in Newfoundland or Nova Scotia.
Someone should video it or otherwise make it available for folks from "away" to enjoy.
Richard
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Thank you, Terry, for the wonderful presentation on the Eagle Lake and West Branch at the Owls Head Transportation Museum. I'm sure there are many like me who hope you'll get around to doing the book on it.
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There is a wonderful way to get a special interest book published. We have used it 3 times with great success. A publisher in Minnesota named Dan Hoisington, specializes in such historical books. He runs a company called Edinborough Press. Terry, please contact him and use my name as a reference. I guarantee you will be able to set up a deal to get the book done at little or no cost to you. Dan was the former Director of the Beverly (Mass.) Historical Society where the Walker Transportation Collection is housed. He just published a Live Steam book for us which now is on the market.
Go to: books@edinborough.com on the Internet for a look at his products and for contact info.
Richard Symmes
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Hello folks,
It was great to meet a number of you at the presentation. Ethan counted aproximatly 162 people so it was a great turnout.
I especially appreciate those who traveled from afar. My family members from Northern Maine and a number of folks from Mass.
The museum did film the presentation. In addition they have a copy of the file and will match it up with the
audio to produce a good quality DVD.
Richard, thank you for the info. A number of people broached the subject of a book. After many years I feel Iam at a point where I can
say I have enough info to work with.
Again.. thank you so much for attending and supporting the museum and your encouragement.
Best regards,
Terry Harper
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I think there were 14 of us there. You presented much more information than I thought you would. Excellent work.
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Back a couple of years ago Terry visited The Great Falls Model Railroad Club and did a great presentation. The club produces Train Time Videos and we give to local cable access channels educational train videos. A part of our 501c(3). Anyway here is a link to a cable access channel in the town of Green Maine that has this video of Terry Harper and his presentation at that time of Nowhere to Nowhere.
http://wgltgreeneme.pegcentral.com/player.php?video=4965ed4b8c250371e95e521c30f59551 (http://wgltgreeneme.pegcentral.com/player.php?video=4965ed4b8c250371e95e521c30f59551)
Ed
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I was just roaming around My Lady's Facebook page, of which I know little, but out of Nowhere, pun intended, this appeared:
http://www.northscapephotography.com/archives/20130116-maines-lost-railroad/ For those of us who will never get there, this is a treat!!! Don't miss the 360 Degree view. I don't know anything about the source.
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Awesome. Thanks Glenn
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That is neat, but everything is backwards. Like the slide was put in wrong way to
Ed
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I noticed that too, but who cares? The experience was worth it. It saddens me to see these magnificent creatures left to rot out there in the weather. Like the old lumber schooners at Wiscasset, I fear they eventually will be destroyed by time and the elements. Any suggestions for their long term preservation?
Richard
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The proposal I submitted to the Maine Bureau of Parks & Lands back in 1994 and which was subsequently incorporated into the Allagash Wilderness Waterway
Management plan, called for the construction of a shelter. Unfortunatly like many such projects it takes time and dedicated individuals to take the initiative and make these things
happen.
The same issue applies to the boarding house at Churchill. Back in the early 90's Bill Feder and his employees dedicated thier time and talent to put new cribwork
under the structure. The long range plan is to restore the structure back to its original appearance and use it as a museum. However... again it takes someone with drive and dedication
to grab the bull by the horns and make it happen.
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How thick does ice need to be to be able to support one of these locomotives? Oh, and Happy New Year, everyone.
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Jock....as the locomotives were never out on the ice....I doubt anyone ever gave it any thought!
Having attended Terry's great program at the Owl's Head Transportation Museum recently....I learned that the locomotives were brought in over land hauled by Lombard tractors.
Keith
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I just checked a bunch of different ice thickness charts and none had a locomotive on them. None I found showed a vehicle bigger than a pickup truck. Here is a chart
http://www.nodakoutdoors.com/ice_fishing_safety.php (http://www.nodakoutdoors.com/ice_fishing_safety.php)
I think there is a reason if your car or truck goes through the ice, your insurance company does not have to pay to get it out. So with that said, I would say, the ice would have to go clear to the bottom in my thoughts. Or broken down into many smaller parts. The most I have seen was about 2 1/2 feet during a snowless and very cold winter. If the water level drops there also could be a layer of air between the ice and water for the ice to float on. Plus moving water always has thinner ice and is not always seen. See the video link above in one of my post. Terry makes it very clear they did not even think about bring the locomotives in over the ice.
Ed
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True, they didn't bring the locomotives across the ice, but they did some interesting things to ease transport. First, they separated the tender from the engine. Then they removed the cab and boiler from the frame and transported them seperately.
Stewart
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This reminds me of a funny story.... A number of years ago my Uncle owned a hotel on Eagle lake (the other Eagle Lake) Anyway, during the winter the town plowed a road across the lake which saved a lot of driving time to go around the lake and was most convienent.
One winter day my uncle happened to look out his window and saw one of the big town plow trucks heading for the lake and the ice road. He hit the ice a a very good clip. Next thing he saw were scores of people running and flinging themselves out of the numerous ice fishing shacks that lined the road followed by water. It seems that big truck, loaded up with sand, depressed the ice and formed a wave in the ice (if you will) that forced the water up through the fishing holes and into the shacks. Needless to say he found it all pretty funny.
Anyway, its all a mute point the State is firm that they will remain where they are. The locomotives are where they should be which is where they worked. To move them would simply strip them of thier context and the very thing that makes them unique. Without that they would become just two more locomotives stuffed and mounted and far removed from thier historical context.
They need paint and a shelter - which is not outrageously expensive or difficult - just need someone to ram rod it. The Bureau is very willing to work with volunteers to get stuff done as witnessed by the recent restoration of a section of the Tramway. Matt LaRoche the current Supervisor is very interested in preserving the history.
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That's good to hear.
But by the same token, we don't want them to end up like the Maine Central #470. It's not in much better shape, and it's in the middle of civilization, not in the Allagash wilderness.
Where would the funding to restore the locomotives to a minimal cosmetic level and build a structure over them come from? Who would do the work? Once done, how would they be protected from vandals? I could see an unprotected building being the target for a fire.
Short of stationing someone on the "property" 24/7, how safe would they be?
Richard
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Hello Richard,
A open sided pole barn would be the cheapest route. The bigest expense would be the roofing and prep & paint materials for the locomotives themselves.
we are talking about stopping or slowing down corrosion rather than replacing metal - that can come later.
What we have found out is if it looks appreciated then usually there is little vandalisim. Most people who visit the locomotives want to go there
and appreciate what they are seeing. That doesn't mean there are not idiots - any thing is possible.
As for funding - its surprising how these locomotive attract support. During our work ties, crushed stone and many other items were donated. We also
worked it out with the Bureau of Parks & Lands so we would provide manpower, engineering and special equipment, they would supply housing, food and
logistic support.
The original estimate was close to $500,000.00 to hire contractors to perform the work. The final cost of the project to the State of Maine was about $32,000.00
Again, it takes some one with the time an energy to organize and push it. Unfortunatly I am not in a position to do that anymore. But... hopefully, once I get
settled into the new carrier that my change.
This past fall a group rebuilt a section of the Tramway - again most of the materail was donated and the volunteers provided the manpower.
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-4XwEWbcgKZg/UPsmaOm2W5I/AAAAAAAABtk/2HgJQE-cDEE/s1024/tramway82012%2520002.jpg)
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Has anyone considered contacting the reserve units of the Navy Seabees or Army engineers to help with skilled manpower? I spent a couple of years drilling with the Seabees out by Boston, and a job like this would have been right up their alley.
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Just as the Marines built the trestle for the WW&F?
This area is a lot more remote. Just how close is the nearest viable road to the actual site? What is the nearest town and how far away is it?
This place is definitely on my "bucket list", but I'd want to go in there with someone who's been in already and knows the way.
The section of the tramway looks great. Kudos to all involved.
Richard
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For the project the Army Reserve Engineers out of Dover Foxcroft delivered the stone to a site behind the Crows Nest Campsite.
It was from there that we moved it by snowmobile across Chamberlain Lake to Tramway.
The closest you can drive is 2 miles. Building a shelter is all about logistics. I would prefabricate everything, label disassemble than move to the site during the winter
or float it from Johns Bridge on a raft or cut-down pontoon boat (if the AWW agrees). The most daunting task is putting in the footing but it wouldn't be to had to move a small
tractor or one of those trailer monuted backhoes in during the winter. Moving heavy stuff in the winter is fairly easy.
Same with a compressor. Its not impossible...just takes thinking out of the box... how else couldwe have moved 150 yards of crushed stone using pickle pails and snowmobiles!
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I visited the locomotives about 15 years ago, apparently well after the enginehouse fire. I noted that a number of relatively heavy pieces were missing off the locomotives - steam air compressor and smokebox door come to mind. Don't know when the items were taken or by who but it must have been a difficult haul out of that location.
Richard, you are most correct to be concerned about security.
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The air compressors are still on them but the smokebox doors and the stack to No. 1 were stollen. We removed the injectors durint the project
and when put covers over the smokebox, capped the stacks and installed a new one for No. 1. When the headlight was installed we tried to make it as
vandal proof as possible. Most of the damage is usually done in the winter when access is easy via snowmobile.
Usually kids who get board watching Dad become stupid drunk while ice fishing