How much is too much?

[Ira Schreiber]

Without comment I have posted Steve Barry's Comments on ticket pricing. This has been an ongoing discussion at  the WW&F.



Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 12:52 pm
Posts: 19
Location: Newton, NJ
 The discussion here about New Hope's pricing vs. Strasburg's pricing seems a bit irrelevant. We (as rail enthusiasts) tend to think of the tourist railroads as a "community," but the reality is the relevant "community" is comprised of the other attractions near a railroad. For instance, New Hope's pricing isn't influenced by Strasburg's pricing. Strasburg's pricing is influenced by what the typical visitor to Lancaster County will spend, and everything from the Amish Village to Good 'N' Plenty is what drives Strasburg's pricing -- Lancaster County is a collection of quick-hit moderately-priced attractions.

On the other hand, New Hope & Ivyland is located in a community where $15 for day parking is not considered abnormal. Very few riders on the NH&I are there solely to ride the NH&I -- they are there for a day in New Hope, and New Hope is (in normal times) a place where you are going to drop a few bucks. The argument that cutting the prices on the train ride will result in a correlating rise in ridership is probably false -- most of the ridership that's there will ride the train if it costs $5, $10 or $15 and the folks already in town that aren't riding probably aren't going to ride if it costs $5, $10 or $15. Thus, you might as well charge the highest price the market will allow. Sure, dropping the price and providing free parking might bring in a few extra railfans, but the revenue gained from them won't offset the revenue lost from the folks who are in town who will ride no matter what. For every free parking spot you give out, you need to sell one additional ticket to make up the revenue you just lost. Will providing 50 free parking spots result in 50 additional ticket sales? Probably not.

As for the synergy of several tourist railroads close together, that is also probably not a very valid argument unless the operations are practically next door (i.e. Strasburg and the Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania). The number of people traveling from tourist line to tourist line as a vacation is, in the overall scheme of things, fairly small. Someone mentioned New Hampshire, and yes, there will probably be a lot of people who ride both the White Mountain Central and the Conway Scenic. However, you'll probably find that those people are actually not riding both railroads as an end-all thing, but rather are riding them as subsets of a day spent in North Conway and a day spent in Lincoln (take away the bears at Clark's, and your dual ridership drops significantly). In other words, the proximity of the towns of North Conway and Lincoln probably has a greater effect on the number of people riding both railroads than the proximity of the railroads themselves does. The existence of the Strasburg probably hurts the Wilmington & Western and WK&S more than it helps, because most people who are seeking a train ride as part of a vacation will pick the closest ride, and most of those folks will already be in Lancaster County.

This isn't to say that people who visit multiple tourist lines and plan their vacations around riding trains should be ignored. But they make up a small enough group that the local economics (i.e. the town of New Hope) will be the driving factor in how railroads are operated and priced more than the economics of tourist railroads in general.

Is $15 for parking "gouging?" Not any more than selling a Mercedes is "gouging." I can't afford to drive a Mercedes, so I don't -- but obviously there is a market for folks who choose to drive one. Likewise for parking in New Hope -- there is a market for $15 parking, and I can choose to participate or not. Enough people choose to participate to make it worthwhile to the railroad without worrying about me.

Let's put this another way -- will the exact same house sell for the exact same price in New York as in Detroit? Ticket and parking pricing, like real estate pricing, is less about the product and more about the location.

_________________
Steve Barry
Managing editor
Railfan & Railroad
Newton, NJ

 
 
 
       
 
 

[John McNamara]

Without comment I have posted Steve Barry's Comments on ticket pricing. This has been an ongoing discussion at  the WW&F.

(Ira, I think you meant to say ongoing at the RyPN rather than the WW&F.)

I think that Steve Barry's comments are very well thought out and very well expressed. The messages that I take from these comments, as applied to the WW&F, are as follows:

1. Since our parking lot is not in a highly populated area where people will be parking to frequent attractions other than the WW&F, we should never charge for parking.

2. For the majority of our visitors, our proximity to other railroad attractions is not sufficient for those attractions to influence our attendance in either a positive or negative way. Our present policy of promoting our railroading neighbors, and their policy of promoting us should be continued, as it is a friendly and polite way of doing business. However, it probably does not affect our attendance or theirs, except for a small number of railfans.

In view of the thoughts that I have expressed above, I believe that pricing tickets on the basis of distance traveled and the total experience presented, with an eye on comparable distances and experiences at other locations, is appropriate, and to the best of my knowledge that is what we have been doing.

[Mike Fox]

I think our current price suits our Railroad well. Considering the location, the length of the ride, etc.

[John Kokas]

Having run an operation myself, Steve's comments are right on.  The biggest factor based on my experience is the same three rules that apply to real estate.  Location.......Location....... Location

This is the one reason I would advocate for a "southern" construction schedule in order to get down to "or near" Wiscasset and the Rt. 1 corridor.  There you have location and traffic, the two main ingredients for a healthy passenger business.

[John McNamara]

I am not sure if this is the proper place for this inquiry or not, but has anyone figured out if the station replica down the street on route 1 had any affect on attendance this season?

We can look in the "How did you hear of us?" column in the visitor log. If there are even one or two entries mentioning Maine Heritage Village, that would be a good sign.

[John McNamara]

This is the one reason I would advocate for a "southern" construction schedule in order to get down to "or near" Wiscasset and the Rt. 1 corridor.  There you have location and traffic, the two main ingredients for a healthy passenger business.

That is indeed a long term goal, I'm sure. However, we don't own any of the land in that direction; part of the ROW is under a pond; part of the ROW has been partially encroached upon by widening of 218; there are some houses on the ROW; and part of the ROW has washed into the Sheepscot River.

-John

[Ed Lecuyer]

I *thought* the museum/W&Q owned the ROW south of Sheepscot all the way to the Alna-Wiscasset town line.  (Or owns most of it.) Of course, the pond is still an issue, and all the other encroachments (such as those John listed) in Wiscasset.

That having been said, I don't think it would be unreasonable to *eventually* embark on a southern expansion - especially if the terminus ended at Route 218 in Wiscasset. That would put us right on (or near) the proposed Route 1 bypass, and any interchange with 218 (which was not initially proposed, but may be back on the drawing board.) That would give us a very good and highly visible location.

Anyone got the money? :-) In the meanwhile, let's get some bathrooms built.

[Wayne Laepple]

Let's be realistic, guys. We can't find enough 60-pound rail to make it to Top of the Mountain. The level of volunteer participation is declining. Not enough volunteers are available or qualified to operate trains on the line we have. Nobody wants to go out and change ties under the track we have now. Crossing Cross Road will attract the attention of the FRA, compliance with whose regulations is more onerous all the time. How will extending the line south toward Wiscasset fix any of this?

[Keith Taylor]

Crossing Cross Road will attract the attention of the FRA, compliance with whose regulations is more onerous all the time. How will extending the line south toward Wiscasset fix any of this?

In addition to the excellent points Wayne raises...you also have the added expense of dramatically increased insurance costs with a level crossing at grade. Anytime you have a potential for an accident involving automobiles, the amount of liability insurance required goes up exponentially. Just imagine the potential liability if there were to be an accident at the crossing....with a school bus. And from an historical point of view....I doubt the DOT would allow just a set of authentic, but not terribly visible wooden cross bucks! And I don't think we would care for the look of modern flashers and drop gates, probably supplemented by security cameras. The word "anachronism" springs to mind.

Keith

[Stewart "Start" Rhine]

I won't describe the corporate workings of the museum here, but there are a couple of things to note.  (1) Each calendar/fiscal year is governed by a carefully managed budget that guides the progress of track construction and maintenance as well as funds for the restoration and up keep of motive power and rolling stock.  Ticket pricing is factored into the budget.  I think our pricing is fair.  I have been to a number of railroad museums and our train ride is a good value for the money.   (2) The development of the museum is guided by the Long Range Plan that was crafted by a committee of members and approved by the Board.  The museum's Plan plus the 5 year Plan that is submitted to the Town of Alna control many of our expansion projects.  There are other considerations such as legal issues with land use and the cost of covering the museum and its visitors with adequate insurance.  That's the "Inside Baseball"  of how many decisions are made at the WW&F.  

The membership has an important role in supporting the goals in the Long Range Plan.  Yes, extending the mainline towards TOM is important.  So is building the new spur that will feed the upper yard, roundhouse and turntable.  We could even build track south from the Cross Road to run rail cars on.  This is all really cool stuff that we can get excited about.  I look forward to seeing engine 9 in steam ... it will be an amazing day!  The reality check is that some of these projects take lots of dollars and years to complete.  The key is to have patience and contribute any way you can.   2010 can be the best year the museum has ever had ... with every one's help.  

Wishing all the WW&F family a Happy and Healthy New Year
Stewart

[Ed Lecuyer]

Well said, Wayne and Stewart.

The WW&F is what we make of it. We can choose to support it, or choose not.

I choose to support it.

I may not agree with every decision the BOD makes, but I trust (and know) that they have the best interest of the museum at heart.

I think we all have dreams of the WW&F becoming some sort of world-class museum. The reality is that we can achieve those goals through tempered patience and cooperation from volunteers near and far. However, when this ceases, so does the dream.

Let's work together to make 2010 the best year yet for the WW&F. If we cooperate together, we could be talking at the end of 2010 about #9 under steam, the completed railcar, our new yard tracks, and our finished bathrooms. That would be something to celebrate!