W.W.&F. Discussion Forum
April 23, 2014, 11:13:13 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Notice: Searching for money.
 
   Home   Help Search Login Register  
Pages: [1]
  Print  
Author Topic: Cuban steam engines -- almost 2-foot...  (Read 2029 times)
Ed Lecuyer
Moderator, WW&F Forum
Administrator
Inspector
*****
Posts: 1,315



View Profile WWW
« on: June 22, 2009, 09:47:34 PM »

MODERATORS NOTE:
Cuban steam engines -- almost 2-foot... has been converted from the pre-July 2008 WW&F Discussion Forum.
Some formatting may have been removed or modified from the original postings that appear quoted in this topic.
Information contained within this post may be superseded by more recent postings and conversations.

Stephen Hussar wrote:
Quote
Thanks to Glenn Christensen for sending along these pictures. All photos by Ken Harrison. If I read this correctly these engines are 27.5" gauge or about 70 centimeters.




pockets replied:
Quote
What an absolutely awsome set of pictures. There are hours of studyability here.
Greg B.

petecosmob replied:
Quote
They do look quite eerilly similar to SR&RL #'s 23 and 24, don't they?

NGFan replied:
Quote
Are these babies still in Cuba?  They all appear to be "standard" Baldwin NG export classes.  Believe their 24 or 27 class.  Look to be in quite rough shape but Cuba is close.   Probably no donation/lease deal here though, they need the bucks...........  Nice part is that a lot of paperwork on these engines are either in the PA-RR museum or I believe in Carnegie-Mellon Univ. library.
John

Glenn Christensen replied:
Quote
Hi John,
The short answer is YES!  Although in recent years there has been some scrapping of the less-servicable units.  I recall counting about 60-70 servicable locos - in 27.5" and 30" gauges in Cuba - as of the late 90s.  Many of these are Baldwin 2-8-0s (although there are a few 2-6-0s) and a number of these are in better condition than the locos depicted.  I have reviewed the dimensions of these locos and they are very consistent with those of the larger Maine Two Foot locos.  So they would look quite at home in Maine.
Assume however, that any repatriated loco - whether from Cuba, Brazil, Argentina or elsewhere - would require a full Class One overhaul and possibly a new boiler.  However, this would still be cheaper than a new fabrication for a similar sized loco.
Basically these locos would be suitable for daily use on a line 10+ miles long.  Their tractive efforts range from about 12,000 to 16,000 lbs., depending on the loco.  In that context, they would provide valuable assistance in protecting the more historic stock (and in supplementing any historic recreations (like #11)) from the rigors of daily operation.
Of course there's this little thing known as the "Trading with the Enemies Act".  Basically, it is illegal for US citizens to trade with Cuba.  But who knows what the future holds.
Best Regards,
Glenn

mikechoochoo replied:
Quote
Just curious, would it be illegal for a Canadian owned, ex Cuban loco to be loaned for use in the U.S. ? ( and I mean Loaned, no money or other exchange of goods or services)
_________________
Mike Nix in Minnesota

NGFan replied:
Quote
Mike,
Love how your mind is working...................
Getting a deal through Canada is not illegal at all.......
How do you think Cuban cigars make it into US stores?
John

petecosmob replied:
Quote
Can anyone provide a link to more info, say photos or a roster, on these loco's?
Thanks,
Pete

NGFan replied:
Quote
Glenn,
good comments - FYI one should probably expect to replace the boilers.  BUT, if I can buy an ASME - Form 4 compliant "new" std. gauge 2-8-2 from China for $290,000, FOB Port of L.A.; how much do you think a new boiler for one of these is going to be?
Since these would be "representatives" of other engines & RR's, there is no need to be exact with restoration.  Just like Strasburg and other's, they run the "out of state" pieces all the time.  The real historic pieces reside over in the museum.
John

Glenn Christensen replied:
Quote
Quote
Can anyone provide a link to more info, say photos or a roster, on these loco's?
Thanks,
Pete
Hi Pete,
Get a copy of "Trains of Cuba" by Adolf Hungry Wolf and your questions will be answered.  It is published by Canadian Caboose Hobbies, its ISBN 0-920698-46-8, and the price is $16.95.
Best Regards,
Glenn

Glenn Christensen replied:
Quote
Quote
Glenn,
... how much do you think a new boiler for one of these is going to be?
Since these would be "representatives" of other engines & RR's, there is no need to be exact with restoration.  Just like Strasburg ...  The real historic pieces reside over in the museum.
John
My guess for one of the 2-8-0s, assuming you had the old boiler as a pattern, $125K.  But this is hardly an exhaustive estimate and I will readily defer to someone who actually does the math.
I agree completely with your Strasburg analogy.
Best Regards,
Glenn

petecosmob replied:
Quote
Ok, next question....
How difficult would it be, REALLY, to take a 2-8-0 and cut it down and rebuild it as a 2-6-2?
I noticed there's actually at least 4 or 5 DIFFERENT loco's in those shots...the 2-6-0 shown looks a LOT like the pre-rebuild SRR moguls!
Was WW&F #6 a 2-6-0 or a 2-6-2?

Mike Fairburn replied:
Quote
You may be interested in the following link:-
http://www.internationalsteam.co.uk/trains/cubasale.htm
This is a list of locomotives for sale in Cuba, all of the small gauge locos are 2-8-0's, but very nice machines

Mike Fox replied:
Quote
Interesting. 3 and 3/4 inches too large. That would make a nice larger engine though. It could be listed as a "could have been" if the FS&K was completed.
Mike

petecosmob replied:
Quote
Some of the std guage ones might have thier own possibilities,...
for Std Ga Museums, of course.

James Patten replied:
Quote
Quote
How difficult would it be, REALLY, to take a 2-8-0 and cut it down and rebuild it as a 2-6-2?.....Was WW&F #6 a 2-6-0 or a 2-6-2?
#6 was a 2-6-2.
As to "how hard is it", to cut down a 27.5" gauge to 24" gauge....Edaville took a 30" gauge Louisaiana sugar plantation engine (our #10) and cut it down to 24" gauge.  They took the cross-track frame members, cut a 6" piece out of them, and welded them back together - with the exception of the cylinder casting, which they left at 30".  In order to have the rods from 30" gauge cylinders meet the 24" gauge wheels, they put a 3" offset on either side.  When we rebuilt the engine a few years ago, instead of the 3" offset to the main rods we made the pin on the rear driver 3" longer.
So taking a 27.5" frame and making it a 24" frame probably isn't terribly difficult.
Next would be taking a rear driver, removing it, and turning it into a rear truck.  Probably much more difficult, involving major changes to the frame.  I'm sure the Maine Central when they changed the SR&RL moguls to prairies either put in a brand new frame or cut the frame and welded the rear truck piece in.

Glenn Christensen replied:
Quote
Hi Pete,
I agree with James that its doable, but the results would not look identical to the MTF locos.  The result would look like one of the big forneys being extended into a mogul or a prairie.  Not unattractive and not totally dissimilar, but definitely a different animal.
Best Regards,
Glenn

Mike Fairburn replied:
Quote
Gentlemen,
I investigated the contacts mentioned in the preamble to the list.  Whilst the visit of a purchaser can be arranged, the 'organiation fee' charged was in my view very high.  I am interested in purchasing a standard gauge loco from the list to bring to the UK (I already have a USATC S160) and I would be interested in purchasing a narrow gauge locomotive also.  I would be interested to discuss thai matter further.
Mike Fairburn

James Patten replied:
Quote
If memory serves, we did look into one of the Cuban engines being offered from Spain.  I believe the price was 200,000 (dollars I think, but it may have been euros or spanish money), which for that price we may as well build our own.

Mike Fairburn replied:
Quote
Yes, at that price, the Spaniards will not be selling many engines I think?  The 'organisation fee' quoted by the Spanish was similarly unrealistic.
I am not aware that any of these locomotives have yet been sold, and unless the vendors and their Spanish agents become realistic, they wont be selling any.
An acquaintance of mine purchased a British built loco in the West Indies around 5 years ago and he paid £1 for it.  It is now in the UK having been stripped and an assessment made of the work required to retore it.
I suspect that if contact could be setablished directly with the Cuban's purchase could be arraged for a much more realistic price than that quoted.
Mike Fairburn

o anderson replied:
Quote
Hey,
We might get all caught up in the way we are familiar with things, but I see no need to cut down the frame on an outside frame locomotive!  Just press the wheelsets in  a bit or if the hubs are big enough and the difference small enough, change the tires to be set inward a bit.
The only modifications after that would be changing the brake rigging and clearances to things such as the ashpan.
If Mr. Fairburn gets a handful of these American-built Cuban relics, would buying his spare parts be trading with the enemy?
O.

Glenn Christensen replied:
Quote
Quote
Hey,
If Mr. Fairburn gets a handful of these American-built Cuban relics, would buying his spare parts be trading with the enemy?
O.
Hi Olin,
I'm not an attorney, but my understanding after reading the Act is that as long as the equipment has not been in an enemy country, been owned by an enemy national, or has been on a vessel owned by an enemy national or that has travelled to an enemy nation for at least six months, and as long as no funds originating in the US end up in an enemy country or in the hands of enemy nationals, and there has been no collusion to circumvent the Act, you should be OK.
In other words, if a non-US party buys the locomotive on spec, purchases it free and clear, takes possession of same in a friendly foreign country, and after six months sells it to a non-affiliated US party, for purposes of the Act you have bought the locomotive from a friendly foreign national and have had it transported from a friendly foreign country.  There can be no quid pro quo.
Best Regards,
Glenn

Wayne Laepple replied:
Quote
I suspect that regauging these Cuban lokies would be as easy as moving the tires in on their wheels centers 1.75 inches. However, I would also note that we have plenty of other things to do before we get involved in such a project.

Josh Botting replied:
Quote
I would suspicious if the increased moment arm achieved by moving the tires inward would cause an over stress in the axles.  Most likeley you would never know the differance, it would just put you out of code....

Wayne Laepple replied:
Quote
It's been done before. In 1917, a large order of 2-10-0 locomotives built by Baldwin for Czarist Russia was not shipped due to the Soviet revolution. The engines were built to 60-inch gauge, and many were sold to railroads around the USA. Some simply slid the tires on each side in 1.75 inches, while others fitted their engines with wide tires. The engine at Illinois Railway Museum, Frisco no. 1630, is one of the latter, I believe. They ran well for many years.

Glenn Christensen replied:
Quote
Hi Guys,
I concur with both of Wayne's assessments.
In Cuba, Central Obdullio Morales (whose trackage connects with that of the Simon Bolivar locos depicted) has a locomotive, #1420, a 27.5" gauge Baldwin 2-8-0 (outside frame), which was regauged from 36" by simply pushing the wheel centers in.  This locomotive - the largest in the fleet - has operated successfully on the line for many years.  One of the videos I have has a prolonged pacing shot of the loco in service and the regauging strategy is clear.  Several other locos on these lines were regauged from 30" and are likewise successful in operation.  Narrow gauge locomotive builders often built their locos to facilitate easy regauging.  The Campbelltown & Machrihanish, a 2'3" gauge line rostered two large Barclay 0-6-2Ts that were built this way.
Having said that, there is no doubt the museum has many more pressing issues at present.  But I would love to see one or more of these locos make their way to Maine for stateside operation in the coming years.  And even better, I would love to see all the MTF lines successful enough to need them!
Best Regards,
Glenn

NGFan replied:
Quote
If #6 was a Baldwin product, the basic frame spacing information may still be found in the archives.  If not, there's probably some of us around who could probably do the weight and balance calculations to determine the proper axle centerline dimensions to reposition for a 2-6-2.
I also believe that I have seen someone in a blog or webgroup in Canada who would work the Cuba issue also.  Unfortunately, I can't put my finger on it when I need it. (hate when that happens )
P.S. A bunch of those 2-10-0's for Russia ended up on the Erie based out of Port Jervis as helpers.  And yes, all they did was put big fat tires on them - ran them for years like that.
John
Logged

Ed Lecuyer
Moderator, WW&F Forum
John Kokas
Museum Member
Fireman
****
Posts: 324


View Profile
« Reply #1 on: June 23, 2009, 06:03:02 PM »

Just looking at all those engines...... OMG   what possibilities.  Anyone from Canada a member who could help out on one (or more) of these?
Logged
Paul Horky
Museum Member
Baggageman
**
Posts: 138


View Profile
« Reply #2 on: June 24, 2009, 11:28:41 AM »

If these engines are outside frame it's no problem to regauge them simplely reseat the drivers  on the axles and go no fuss no mess.
Logged
Pete "Cosmo" Barrington
Museum Member
Fireman
****
Posts: 419


View Profile
« Reply #3 on: July 03, 2009, 11:46:30 PM »

It's almost eerie! It's like SRRL #'s 23 and 24 just suddenly resurfaced from the grave!
Logged
Pages: [1]
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2006-2008, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!