Porter 2-8-0 for the FS&K/W&W

[Ed Lecuyer]

MODERATORS NOTE:
Porter 2-8-0 for the FS&K/W&W has been converted from the pre-July 2008 WW&F Discussion Forum.
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David Johnson wrote:

For the last 35 years I have wondered about the Porter 2-8-0 locomotive the was designed for the extension to Farmington.  Moody wrote that a set of blueprints #9816 were prepared and dated December 5, 1901 for a 2-8-0, Class D-2-T-8, codeword Hatijo for the Franklin Construction Co.  Since the only plausible use for such a locomotive would be line haul work from the Sandy River, the engines were never built.  They were to have 33" drivers, 13x16" cylinders, 55,000lb total, with 48,000lb on the drivers and 29,500lb for the tender.  Has anybody ever seen correspondence on the proposal or the blueprints or does anyone know where they might be located if they still exist?  Other authors have been silent on this subject.  I understand that Moody's photos may be in the DeGolyer library at SMU in Dallas.  Is it possible that there a some Moody files there that may have information?  The 13th edition of Porter's catalogue, which is several years later gives weights for that class as 57,000lb total, 50,000lb on the drivers, and the tender in working order at 38,000lb.  The boiler pressure is 170lbs and the tractive effort is 11,850lbs.  Those numbers are probably for a standard gauge loco and are very close to Moody's weights.  An outside frame 24" gauge locomotive would be only slightly lighter since the difference in frame width and therefore cylinder width and axle length is about 6" less.  An inside frame locomotive would be quite a bit lighter and would probably have less boiler pressure to keep the adhesion to a reasonable number.  Does anyone know if these were to be outside framed?

petecosmob replied:

Well....where to start?
As I must categorize all my research into the "hobby: amature historian" catagory, I can only offer my musings as to what the locomotive would have looked like. I can picture it being quite a beast though! Imagine WW&F #6 with an extra set of drivers, OR #24 with an extra drive axle in leiu of a trailing truck, and we begin to get the picture!
I cannot imagine such a creature being built on anything other than an outside frame. Such eight-coupled outside -framed loco's were not unheard of, case in point; the 3' Mikes that still roam (in heards like the buffalo) out west. One could only imagine, FS&Kor no, what the WW&F would have done with such an engine had it been delivered. One thing's for certain, it would have been the largest (CMIIW) locomotive on a Maine 2'er.
Unfortunately, I don't have access to much as far as research materials go, just the same .www that everyone else has.
I DO seem to recal something about a 2' 2-8-0 or 2-6-2 or the like stored somewhere in NY State. I'll look that up in a bit and see if I can find it again.
Ciao,
Cosmo

petecosmob replied:

Ok,...yeah. I looked for the engine I was thinking of last night and FOUND IT! But then I got busy and forgot to post where it is!
I'm going to look it up again in a bit, but heres what I remember:
There's at least 2 large 2' guage engines hiding out in upstate NY! One, at least, is a 2-6-2, maybe both! They look big! Bigger than ol' 24!
I belive the location is Watertown NY.
I'll look it up again and post a link if I can.
Cosmo

petecosmob replied:

Ok, here's what I found:
(I tried posting the link, but I don't have enough postings yet for the website to let me post url/links!  )
The engines in question are both 2-6-2's, which doesn't  so much help with the subject of this thread, but it does make for interesting discussion.
The one pictured came from Washington State, the other from "Canal Village in Rome, NY."
While the arrangement isn't 2-8-0, it does give an idea what the size of such an engine might be.
A search of "Surviving steam locomotives in NY State"
yeilded the above info. Scroll down to the bottom of the page and look for 24" in the "Guage" column.
Cosmo

Glenn Christensen replied:

Hi Folks,
Rough drawings were created by Porter for the proposed WW&F 2-8-0.  I know this because I have seen copies of them.  I do not recall whether the drawings show the proposed locomotive as inside or outside framed.  While an outside frame locomotive would seem logical, there were a number of inside frame designs that would have been suitable in 2', 30", and 3' gauges.  One of these is shown in the back section of the original version of Moody's "Maine Two Footers".
For a look at some outside framed, 30" gauge Baldwin consols that would look at home in Maine, check out the Cuba section of Rob Dickinson's International Steam pages at URL:
http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/steam/
For a look at some dandy (two-footable) 3' gauge, inside frame Vulcans, check out the Lawndale Rwy section at URL:
http://www.tarheelpress.com/index.html
I believe the most modern non-articulated 2' locomotive design from a US builder (Baldwin) may have been the fleet of Baldwin 2-8-2s built for the Scindia and Gwalior lines in India in 1948.  I have a photo of one of these currently on display in Mumbai (Bombay), but don't know how to post it here.  Interestingly, these locomotives were a modernized version of the 25 - 30" gauge 2-8-2s built for the "old Patagonian Express" in Argentina, which were themselves based upon the design for SR&RL #23.  A number of the Patagonian locomotives survive in service to this day.  All major dimensions for these locomotives were nearly identical - including the driving wheel base.  (Picture a #23 with an extra pair of drivers.)  The major difference was the piston valves (as opposed to slide valves) found on the later locomotives.  Check out the attached URL for the Patagonian locos.
http://www.latrochita.org.ar/
For some 30"gauge Baldwin 2-8-0s running today in Brazil, check out URL:
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Sparta/8579/ingles.htm
Best Regards,
Glenn

pockets replied:

Glenn,
Thanks for the links. For a Mt. Gretna fan those Brazilian 4-4-0's are really sweet.
Greg B.

ETSRRCo replied:

I know this is a little off topic but what railroad in Brazil was it that has locomotives very similar to the 6?

David Johnson replied:

Glenn,
Where did you see a copy of the drawing at and is it possible to get a copy made?

Stephen Hussar replied:

2-foot gauge 0-8-0 (Porter) -- some serious power here...

petecosmob replied:

Ok, yeah, size-wize verry similar to the ones in NY State!

Glenn Christensen replied:

Sorry David,
The drawing is owned by a private collector, who I have not been in touch with for a number of years.
Sincerely,
Glenn

ETSRRCo replied:

Got any specs on that 0-8-0? That would gives us an idea of what size the 2-8-0 might have been. (could help me make a drawing of what it might have looked like). One question. Around what year was this 2-8-0 discussed? O and one more. Are there any examples of outside frame Porters? I cant for the life of me remember EVER seeing an outside frame Porter. Being on the restoration team of a 3ft gauge Porter I have seen that book of the Porter catalogue and I do not remember outside frame locomotives. The 2-8-0 just might have been inside if it was built by Porter!
-Eric

Glenn Christensen replied:

Sorry I don't have the 0-8-0 specs, but the Porter serial number is 7304.
Assuming 20" tender wheels, the drivers look to be between 28 and 30" in diameter.  Based on that dimension, the boiler would be about 42" in diameter.  As they would have been contemporaries, I imagine the smaller details would have been similar to those found on WW&F #4.
The 2-8-0 drawings would have been drafted some time between 1900 and 1902.  As for differences with the 0-8-0, slide valve rather than piston valve cylinders would be a good bet since piston valves weren't common until about 1920 or so.  This would also date the 0-8-0 to 1920 or later
That should be enough to get you started. I'd be interested in seeing what you come up with.
Come to think of it, I don't recall even seeing any outside frame Porters either.  But Alco, Vulcan, Glover and Davenport had them, so I can't imagine Porter not using them if desired.
Best Regards,
Glenn

David Johnson replied:

Eric,
The drawing for the 2-8-0 was dated Dec. 1901 or around the same time proposal were being received for the 2-4-4/0-4-4 passenger locos from Portland and Porter.  Therefore the 2-8-0 would probably have been  built around the same time as the #4 and let us call her #5 as that would probably have been her number if built.  For an outside framed Porter of that time period and roughly same gauge, look at the Coronada #9 & #10 0-4-4 locos.  These 20" gauge engines had 12"x14" cylinders and were built in 1898 & 1899.  The 2-8-0 outside framed loco would have had the counterweights on the drivers and therefore the drivers would have looked like those on the #4 without the crank pin holes.  The outside cranks would have had no counterweights.  The boiler would have been an extended wagon top with either a 40" barrel and 46" butt or a 42" barrel and 48" butt.  The front edge of the steam dome would have been at the top of the taper and the sand dome would have been centered on the bottom of the taper, with the bell at the front of the first course, behind the stack.  This is based on photos of a Mexican 2-8-0 Porter built around 1903 with 12"x16" cylinders.  The stack, smokebox and front would have been like those originally on the #4.  The 2-8-0 would have had slide valves and the 13"x16" cylinders would have had the sides flattened for clearance like those on the WW&F #6 and the Coronada #9 & #10.  The valve gear would have been Stephenson with the rear crosshead guide support and valve rod crank centered between the 1st & 2nd drivers.  The pony truck would be 20" and the drivers were to be 33".  The driver spacing would have been around 42" between the 1st & 2nd axles and between 36" and 39" for the others.  The firebox would have hung behind the rear drivers with the rear frame extension being a bar probably 6" to 7" deep.  Cylinders for steam brakes on the loco would have hung vertically just ahead of the rear beam of the loco and acted on a bell crank lever that pivoted between the front and middle of the firebox.  Vacumn brake pots would have been located the same and it is more likely that is what the 2-8-0 would have had.  Normally Porter would have provided a paneled wood cab, but looking at what was built on #4 and proposed by Portland, it is obvious that the railroad wanted a steel cab.  Whether it would have been some sort of all weather cab or tender arrangement would be interesting to know.  The tender and tank would have been about the same size as those on the WW&F #6 and it would have had a flared top flange, a tool box on the rear beam and probably 20" wheels on about a 42" wheelbase, again from the Mexican loco.  Give her a Russian Iron boiler jacket, paint her gloss black, add a simple gold border around the side of the cab and the tender, add gold lettering and you're ready to go.

David Johnson replied:

Eric,
I forgot to say to run the main rod to the 2nd driver.  Thinking about it, the axle spacing between the 1st & 2nd driver might be closer to 39" and 36" on the other driver spacing.  That would make her a little more compact and would probably be more in line with a 2' gauge locomotive of that size.  Also Porter built quite a number of outside framed locomotives, mostly for export.  The first class of 2-8-2 locomotives on the IRCA were outside framed Porters.  They also built some that way for plantation railroads.

ETSRRCo replied:

Well ok! I'll see what I can come up with. Do you have a picture of the Mexican 2-8-0? So what should I letter the locomotive? WW&F, W&Q or FCC?

ETSRRCo replied:

Ok first rough sketch! I did this in about 20 mins so it is anything BUT perfect. Let me know what you think is good and what needs to be changed. Want to have this right before I go to scale.
http://forums.railfan.net/Images//RRArt/WWF_2-8-0.jpg

pockets replied:

Eric,
I can't wait to see the finished product 
Greg B.

Dana Deering replied:

Eric,
That is a fantastic "rough sketch"!  You have a talent, sir.  Have you seen the tree quarter rear shot of #6 in front of the Wiscasset Car Shop?  It's in Vol 5 (?) of Narrow Gauge in the Sheepscot Valley.  Ever since I saw it, 6 being my favorite, I have thought it would make a great painting.  Keep it up, and come visit us when you can!
Dana

petecosmob replied:

Would it be worth starting a new thread discussing possible locomotives that come close to No. 6 in size and appearance? If so, which catagory should it go under?
Cosmo

ETSRRCo replied:

Dana I am guessing you are referring to the FABULOUS picture of the 6 on page 67 of Vol 5. It is one of my favorite shots. I don't know if I can paint it but a pencil drawing I think I can do. Like the picture I did of the 10. (below) Ok so You like the first draft. I will do a small scaled drawing next.
-Eric

pockets replied:

Nice, Eric. Very, very nice.
Greg B.

James Patten replied:

Discussions of new locomotives should go under Museum Discussion.

Dana Deering replied:

Eric,
I'll bet you could do a painting if you can do a drawing.  I know you're a busy guy but I would sure like to see what you could come up with, at least starting with the drawing.
Dana

David Johnson replied:

Eric,
I just got around to getting back into the forum and saw your sketch of the 2-8-0.  The Colorado Railroad Annual #11 is where I saw the photos of the 12"x16", 36" gauge 2-8-0 Porter. There was a small builders photo but the better shot is a 3/4 front shot of her out of service in the 1950s with the jacket and lagging missing.  On your drawing the things that look like they need a little adjusting are:
The cab looks too tall for its width, it should be around 66" wide.
The firebox might need to be lengthened and maybe the extended wagon top should be slightly longer, say 6".
The boiler taper really did end at the middle of the sand box.  That would seem to be a more difficult casting than needed.
The sand dome might be a little tall, but the steam dome looks right.  Don't forget the slight taper to the domes.
Put a on the top extension of the tender tank sheets.
Dave

ETSRRCo replied:

Ok well this raises some questions. How far back does the firebox go? Does it extend out of the cab, all the way through the cab or does it have a deck? The top extension are there they just aren't flared. I just sketched in the 6s tender real quick. Like I said it took me all of 20 mins to do that sketch. I have the scale one in front of me right now but its not done. I need to know about the firebox.
-Eric

ETSRRCo replied:

Hows this?

The front truck needs to be stretched more and I need more space between the cylinder and front driver. The wheel base of the 2-8-0 is actualy smaller then the 6!
-Eric

Locomotive112 replied:

Glenn Christensen wrote; I believe the most modern non-articulated 2' locomotive design from a US builder (Baldwin) may have been the fleet of Baldwin 2-8-2s built for the Scindia and Gwalior lines in India in 1948.

David Johnson  wrote;Glenn, Where did you see a copy of the drawing at and is it possible to get a copy made?

Glenn Christensen then wrote; Sorry David, The drawing is owned by a private collector, who I have not been in touch with for a number of years. Sincerely, Glenn

Hello WW&F forum members, I am the aforementioned "private collector" That Glen so respectfully kept confidential in this link.
I bought the only set of Baldwin "Original Builder's Drawings" for the "Scindia State Railways" 2' gauge 2-8-2's of 1948 from the Central Railways of India's Gwalior Branch in 1997.   These locomotives were referred to as NH/4 by the Gwalior railway.   I attempted to buy all four of those locomotives in 1997 but I missed inquiring about them by about 2 years as three of them went to the scrapper, the other one Glenn Christensen found a photo of shown stuffed and mounted in an Indian park, to my great surprise as it was reported to me to have been cut up already by a very high ranking official in the Indian CR!   The CR lost track of those locos after the scrapper purchased them and I think the Gwalior Royal family (who owns the RR and only lets the public use it) must have bought one back from Mr. Scrapper for the public's benefit.    I even have the name of "Mr Scrapper" who bought those four locomotives in 1995 and he basically buys metal and cuts big pieces into small ones to sell as scrap, so that one locomotive surviving is miraculous!    I did the best I could and at least purchased and saved the drawings.
If any of you want to build the most modern Baldwin 2'er ever built I will be making the drawings available to you can build one in a smaller scale or in full size if any of you would like to.
Copying and scanning those drawings is huge task, but I am planning to make them available scanned and on DVD.   So if you've ever wanted to build a scale livesteamer and you are a two-foot gauge fan, (and you have some "fun money" saved), you will be able to get copies of that drawing set soon and the cost will be a bargain, probably about $300.00 for the set all scanned and onto a set of full DVD's.
The very  photo that I was going to attach for our forum mebers was graciouly found and atached to his reply inthenext message, by owr own Stephen Hussar.  Thanks Stephen for the heads up search, find, and post. I apprecaite it.
The locos (four of them) might have been painted "olive green" in this Baldwin builders photo.  The cab was called a "Summer Cab" and you do get used to that sand large combo sand and steam dome after you look at it for a while.  The steam dome does keep that sand hot and dry so it is very functional.
Hope you guys like the loco its my baby now and I sure do.   I took me years to get the drawings for it and it was a huge effort in those early days of the internet. Sorry I missed out on the locomotives!
Loco112 , David, aka; "the Villian"

Stephen Hussar replied:

http://narrowmind.railfan.net/

David Johnson replied:

Now wouldn't that look great with three domes, a wood or boiler tube pilot, a bell, and a US styled cab.  She would be just the thing to haul the heavy freight down to Wiscasset from Farmington or Quebec.  She would also be lighter on her feet than the SR&RL #23.
Count me as interested in the drawings.  They would be a nice compliment to the drawing set for the SR&RL #23 that Jenkins published and to the erection drawings for SR&RL #10 and #24 that have been available.
Dave

tomc replied:

Dave,
Where can one find the drawings for #24?  I would like to get a copy.
Tom C.  future owner of a 3 3/4 scale 24.
_________________
Later;
tom_srclry_com

David Johnson replied:

Tom,
I bought my copies quite a number of years ago from a guy up in  the MA, RI, or somewhere in that area.  They are erection drawings that were a redraw in 1 1/2" scale with an elevation drawing and a drawing with sections.  I believe the guy that redrew and sold them was named Ted J. Stoutenburg or something close to that.  The same drawings were in a Live Steam magazine in about 3/4" scale around 1980 to 1985.  From the drawings that he did, you could tell that he was working from the original 2" scale drawings so those must exist somewhere, maybe Ed Bond.
I got my 2" scale erection drawings of #10 and #23 from Jenkins as well as the Two-Foot Cyclopedia of #23 drawing when he published those.  As I recall half of the #23 detail drawings came from the Phillips Historical Society and the other half from elsewhere.
I'd like to build a 1/2 or 5/8 size version of one of them, but I can't seem to find time run my gas loco more than 3 or 4 times a year or move my steamer to the shop, so for now all I can do is dream.  Good luck on your dreams and plans.
Dave

David Johnson replied:

Tom,
Try contacting Theodore J. Stoutenberg at (860) 482-7997.  His address is Country Lane, New Hartford, CT 06057.  Ted is listed as 68 years old.
Information from the drawing is as follows:
Erecting No. 9527
Class 10-18 1/4 D 35
original drawing by S. B. Clayton 5-16-1919
redrawn by T. J. Stoutenberg 3-1-1976
Scale 1 1/2"
data from collection of Ed Bond
Therefore I believe that Ed Bond has the original 2" scale erection drawings.
Dave

tomc replied:

thanks Dave  i copied your info.
Tom C.
_________________
Later;
tom_srclry_com

[Bruce Mohn]

Peter Barney's book on two foot Prairies for BHI Publications has a proposal drawing of a 2-8-0 that was sent to the WW&F.  He claims it was a proposal by Baldwin, not Porter.  The domes have a Porterish look to them.

[Glenn Byron]

WOW!!! This is great stuff.  If we could  only impose / match this view with the Farmington Historical Society painting of the Farmington Falls Station posted previously in FS&K topics, where locals were " Waiting for a train". We could help fulfill the Leanord Atwood dream of connecting the SR&RLRR and the WW&F for a trip from the Mountains to the Sea.  He built 9 miles of railbed, much of which exists today, and all we are lacking is a locomotive to take Mr. Atwood for the ride, only 110 years after the fact.  Let's get these posts together for historians to work with. Previously, we've only had a little rail, some horse drawn rail equipment for construction, and slight references to equipment aquisition.  This is progress.

[Pete "Cosmo" Barrington]

Where was this roadbed built, and was it on the original FS&K row?

[Dylan Lambert]

Alright, to bump this back up, I came across a locomotive that looks similar to the Porter that Eric drew...
http://steamlocomotive.info/vlocomotive.cfm?Display=1485
Alright, undersized cab and lack of wagon-top boiler aside, that Jung is a close hitter for those 2-8-0s...