Author Topic: WW&F No. 10 - Official Work Thread  (Read 36277 times)

Keith Taylor

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Re: WW&F No. 10 - Official Work Thread
« Reply #15 on: October 01, 2008, 11:12:18 AM »
Ken,
That is probably not a locomotive injector, but rather one from a portable boiler or steam tractor. The feed line size is way too small for a locomotive. A 1 - 1/2" NTP fitting has a hole less than 1" in diameter bore, which would not deliver enough water quickly. I have never hear of a locomotive using a Penberthy, other than some miniature locomotves such as a Crown Metal Products or Cagney.
Keith


David Johnson

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Re: WW&F No. 10 - Official Work Thread
« Reply #16 on: October 01, 2008, 01:11:14 PM »
Penberthy injectors were pretty common on industrial steamers although they may have been replacements.  I've seen them on locomotives up 15"x24" cylinders and I'm quite sure the #10 does not use injectors bigger than a 1 1/2".
Dave

Keith Taylor

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Re: WW&F No. 10 - Official Work Thread
« Reply #17 on: October 01, 2008, 10:56:16 PM »
I have seen a lot of industrial steam locomotives and narrow gauge, and invariably they have used Sellers, Nathan and Metropolitan injectors. If the 4-4-0s at the B&O Museum have Penberthy injectors...they are replacements as Penberthy did not come into existence until 1886. The steam injector was invented by Henri Giffard, a French scientist, and was licensed to be manufactured in this country by the William Sellers Co. in Philadelphia. Most locomotives including the engines here at the WW&F use horizontal lifting injectors with a starting lever. In use, merely pulling back a lever first uncovers a ring of priming nozzles that allow the injector to create a vacuum and lift the water from a level lower than the injector. The Penberthy type required the operator to first open a water valve (a globe valve) and then CAREFULLY open a steam valve slightly to first prime the injector...then slowly open the steam valve farther to cause the water and steam to lift against the pressure in the boiler.
You can see an example of the type of injector that is best for RR service at the Strasburg RR's web site, here: http://www.strasburgrailroad.com/mechanical-reproduction-parts.php
I have used Penberthy injectors, and believe me if I had a choice, I would not use one on a locomotive.
Keith

Keith Taylor

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Re: WW&F No. 10 - Official Work Thread
« Reply #18 on: October 03, 2008, 01:31:02 PM »
Ken,
Check my pervious posting, and click on the link to the Strasburg RR web site. They now manufacture brand new replica Sellers Type N horizontal lifting injectors.
However, the work Gordon is doing is beautiful and I have no doubts that the injector he is working on will work properly once the small finishing details are attended to and that spare injector is in service.
There are also supplers in the United Kingdom that manufacture new injectors, although they are of the Gresham and Craven design and will have British Whitworth threads, requiring an adaptor to connect to U.S. pipe fittings.
They would not be an authentic accessory for use on an American narrow gauge locomotive.
Keith

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Re: WW&F No. 10 - Official Work Thread
« Reply #19 on: November 04, 2008, 04:05:06 PM »
Speaking of #10 continuing to run smoothly, I was pleased to see during the last work workend that someone had installed a neat set of brass oil cups on the valve rocker shaft that perfectly match the larger pair on the crossheads.  I found the new set at a swap meet in Dublin, New Hampshire a few years ago and mailed them up to Alna in the hope that they might work for this purpose.  Stewart Rhine said he thought Gawdon had installed them recently. 

Railroad museums sometimes have the problem of being inundated with things dropped off by well-intentioned people who think they might be useful, but in this case I'm glad I made the right call.

Jon Chase 

Stewart "Start" Rhine

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Re: WW&F No. 10 - Official Work Thread
« Reply #20 on: November 05, 2008, 12:56:11 PM »
There are some recent images of engine 10 at  www.railpictures.net    Enter "USA Maine" in the country/state location search box and then click the [Find the Photos] button.  Scroll through pages 1 and 2 for photos of the WW&F.  Note : There are some broad gauge shots mixed in there too. 
« Last Edit: November 05, 2008, 01:03:29 PM by Stewart Rhine »

Mike Fox

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Re: WW&F No. 10 - Official Work Thread
« Reply #21 on: November 06, 2008, 12:15:32 AM »
I just love the night photo of Dana. Watching the photo take place, I was amazed and walked away with more knowledge in the fine art of night photography.
Mike
Doing way too much to list...

Stewart "Start" Rhine

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Re: WW&F No. 10 - Official Work Thread
« Reply #22 on: November 06, 2008, 01:40:19 PM »
Duncan,  Some of the photos are from the John Craft charter which was held October 3rd.  That was a great day for the WW&F.  John and his team had professional set lighting and equipment.  He brought visitors who have been to steam railroads all over the world and many said that the WW&F is one of the best narrow gauge lines they have ever seen.  All our volunteers did a super job representing the railroad.  Most of us had rolls to play in the filming.  We did our regular jobs with direction from the film crew.  It was a very enjoyable 16 hour day.

The night shot of Dana was from the volunteers special night train which ran during the track weekend.  Steve H. set up a special photo shoot at Alna Center during a stop on the way back.  As Mike said, it was facinating to see how he ran the shoot and the beautiful end result.  I think Dana offered to sign autographs afterward...  :D

Duncan Mackiewicz

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Re: WW&F No. 10 - Official Work Thread
« Reply #23 on: November 06, 2008, 03:12:43 PM »
Stewart,
I suspected many of the pictures were from the charter.  They were just too good to be casually taken shots by a visitor.  Besides, the night shots and the posing of many regulars such as yourself gave away the timing as that of the charter.  Regardless, the shots are really nice and certainly showcase the museum very well.
Duncan

Stephen Hussar

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Re: WW&F No. 10 - Official Work Thread
« Reply #24 on: November 07, 2008, 09:58:28 PM »
Mike and Stewart, thanks so much! It was fun jumping out and grabbing that shot. I have been very fortunate over the years to have been asked to work on an interesting variety of productions. This past summer we updated the Nikon School video series, shooting a new program covering the use of flash called, "A Hands On Guide to Creative Lighting." It's the ABC's of flash photography, but the program includes a terrific how-to section on night multi-flash photography where Joe McNally used 12 strobes, all wireless, to light a scene on a dock in Gloucester, MA. (hopefully, next time we'll use a train instead of a boat!) http://www.nikonusa.com/dvd/Hands_On/index.html
« Last Edit: November 08, 2008, 11:47:20 AM by Stephen Hussar »

Ed Lecuyer

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Re: WW&F No. 10 - Official Work Thread
« Reply #25 on: December 13, 2008, 10:36:31 PM »
MODERATORS NOTE:
WW&FRy #10 has been converted from the pre-July 2008 WW&F Discussion Forum.
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ETSRRCo wrote:
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I think that it can be easily sad that the #10 has become the backbone and heart of the WW&FRy's operating equipment. Over the years she has evolved into one of the finest looking steamers in the country and its all due to the hard work of the museum. The museum would not be the same without the #10. My question is once the #9 is back in service what will become of the #10. How often will the old girl run the high iron and if and when the #11 is built will the #10 still be used on trains? I would hate to she her regulated to stand by service. She has really become the face of the WW&F in my opinion. No matter what though I know she is in good hands.

-Eric
_________________
Eric Bolton
East Tigard & Southern Railroad Co 1889-1958

John McNamara replied:
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I have always thought that #10 is a great engine. It will always have the virtues that its small size means it can be steamed up fairly quickly and that it is conservative of coal and water. I expect that in low traffic situations, these virtues will overcome its lack of power and make it the ideal choice for those situations.

James Patten replied:
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I think John is correct, in that on weekends where we don't expect a lot of traffic, #10 will be used.  Probably on one weekend a month, #9 will be used.  If traffic grew to the point that during July and August we needed both coaches, the open car, and the caboose to haul everybody, then I'm sure #9 would be used during those months and #10 used during other months.

Jason has calculated it only uses about $50 worth of coal per day.  This is using the previous coal delivery, not our current one which probably makes it $75 worth of coal a day.  Fifteen adult tickets pays for the coal and all train operation incidentals, probably (at $6/ticket).  That doesn't include the insurance and lights, of course.

Joe Fox replied:
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So if we have more than 15 people per day, we have made a proffit off of it. That is great. The engine has some great stack talk, especially with three cars, as I have just noticed from this past weekend.

So #9 will be like the B & H engines in Portland, and only used for special events and big trains? What about when adn if we get the need to run two trains a day? What will happen with the two steam engines?

Joe

Jason M Lamontagne replied:
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James and John have answered pretty accurately.  No 10 is very economical and therefore will always have a place in regular service.  Even when a bohemouth No 11 is next door.

If we only had No 9 and larger engines, for example, we may be hesitant to run steam for work trains and shoulder season events, due to expense and throuble.  No 10 allows us to run an essentially all steam railroad, by making steam more practical on a routine basis.  It's a great engine for that.

I have some different thoughts for No 9 however.  We are doing a thorough overhaul, which is intended to make then engine ready for any service it ever saw- I didn't want to have to train crews to "baby" it.  While its history should be respected, it was intended to pull trains and is being restored to do so; there is no particular reason to keep it in the barn.

One approach is that 10 would run the shoulder seasons- spring into June, then September through the end of the year.  9 will take the meat of the summer, and kept ready through Halloween, then winterized.  This keeps wear on the two locomotives roughly equal, makes for smooth 31 day inspection cycles, puts them on traffic that they are well suited for, and keeps 9 off the work trains (and the associated dirty environment and rough unfinished track).

Of course there are other ways to do this and we'll work it out as we get closer.

see ya
jason

Joe Fox replied:
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Ok. I did notice that #10 doesn't require that much coal, except for when it gets used like it did this past weekend. Because steam was required both ways, instead of just one. Is the tourist season more popular in June-September? I haven't really paid attention to the amount of passengers, or the months that have the most people. Does any body think that there might be a need, in the future to run two trains, say between 218 and Sheepscot?

Joe

ETSRRCo replied:
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Quote
James and John have answered pretty accurately.  No 10 is very economical and therefore will always have a place in regular service.  Even when a bohemouth No 11 is next door.

If we only had No 9 and larger engines, for example, we may be hesitant to run steam for work trains and shoulder season events, due to expense and throuble.  No 10 allows us to run an essentially all steam railroad, by making steam more practical on a routine basis.  It's a great engine for that.

I have some different thoughts for No 9 however.  We are doing a thorough overhaul, which is intended to make then engine ready for any service it ever saw- I didn't want to have to train crews to "baby" it.  While its history should be respected, it was intended to pull trains and is being restored to do so; there is no particular reason to keep it in the barn.

One approach is that 10 would run the shoulder seasons- spring into June, then September through the end of the year.  9 will take the meat of the summer, and kept ready through Halloween, then winterized.  This keeps wear on the two locomotives roughly equal, makes for smooth 31 day inspection cycles, puts them on traffic that they are well suited for, and keeps 9 off the work trains (and the associated dirty environment and rough unfinished track).

Of course there are other ways to do this and we'll work it out as we get closer.

see ya
jason

That makes me very happy as I have grown very fond of the old gal. She is quite the little fire cracker. I am glade that she has found such a loving home.

-Eric
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Eric Bolton
East Tigard & Southern Railroad Co 1889-1958

Joe Fox replied:
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#10 sure is quite the little engine. Many of our passengers/tourists love seeing the steam engine in operation. However, a few volunteers seem to think that it is a waste of time to fire up #10, for both passenger train service and work trains. Even though steam engines require a lot of time and maintenance, I think that they are worth the effort, because they draw a lot of railfans and historians.
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“We are extremely proud of our collection of historical railroad equipment, which is the largest of any U. S. railroad, especially our steam locomotives.”
-Steve Lee-

Joe

Stewart Rhine replied:
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I have been a fan of the ten since the day I saw her unloaded from the low boy trailer in 1999.  We were all looking at her fake diamond stack, brass running boards and angle iron pilot.  The following day I painted the number 10 on her cab and WW&FRy on her tender.  She looked ok but Jason said something to the effect that the engine would get the WW&F treatment.  Well that certainly happened - eight years later she has been rebuilt, improved and is a great running locomotive.  She also is a darn fine looking engine.  I think I have more photos of her than of my family!

James has a good idea about a rebuilders plate.  Maybe we could put one on the tender (when the new one is built).  That way it wouldn't detract from the original builders plates and Bernie's new number plate up front.  Maybe Bernie could come up with a design for a new rebuilders side plate.

I think having number 10 in work train service is one of the best things we do for the track weekends.  I enjoy seeing her hauling freight trains and working in the construction block.  There's something great about a steam locomotive "just being part of the scene".   The fact that she blends in so well makes me think of how things probably looked when the W&Q ran construction trains out of Wiscasset with engine 1.

I'd like to see Engine 9 involved in the track weekends.  I know an 18 ton engine won't be traveling the unballasted track but having her in steam, pulling stone trains, etc. would be a nice touch.  It would be alot more work but is there a chance that the 9 and 10 may both be in steam for a track weekend some day...  One could pull passenger trains and the other construction runs.  They could switch jobs at some point during the day and even double head a special at the end of the day.  Of course many things would have to be worked out like crew availability, special safety/operating rules and having extra coal.

Joe Fox replied:
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Maybe we could talk people into using only steam for one track laying weekend, so that lots of pictures can be taken of the steam engines and rebuilding the railroad. Even if it was only for a day, I think that would make for some great shots. Just an idea.

Joe

Mike Fox replied:
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I think for the first year or so of operation, Jason is going to have to fight off crew to run the 9. Everyone is going to want a crack at her. So maybe having 2 crews in one day wont be so hard.
Mike

jockellis replied:
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Any time you have two steam locomotives running, you have a better chance of getting a television station to do a piece on your weekend operation. That can be worth more in publicity than the boiler cost. But a lot of that will need to wait for more track, it seems to me.
It dawns on me that I have no idea what media outlets you have in that area. I saw in one post that you do a lot of advertising in various things, but know nothing of them as far as what they do. In Waycross, GA, the historical (actually hysterical) society got a Baldwin catalog mike. The daily newspaper would send me to photograph things going on out there at the drop of a hat.
Maybe you could teach a class on running steam locomotives to a group of reporters.
Jock Ellis

Steam replied:
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I hope that once #9 has been rebuilt, that it will be at least once temporarily relettered and re-numbered for either or both, Sandy River RR #5 and SR&RL #6, much as was done when #10 became Pleasure Island & Western #5 in remembrance of her service on that line.  After all, she is the last of the SR&RL's locomotives.  Heck, you could even letter her for Kennebec Central for a weekend too, just to include every line she served on.  What does everyone think?

Richard W. Symmes

ETSRRCo replied:
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I think that is a great idea.
_________________
Eric Bolton
East Tigard & Southern Railroad Co 1889-1958

Steam replied:
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My pet peeve:  No newspaper story about steam locomotives (or any other type of train, for that matter) ever appears without the liberal use of the word "chug" (or chugged, chugs, chugging, etc.) throughout the copy. I've seen it used in stories describing everything from new Amtrak service, excursion trips, commuter service...you name it.  They just have to incorporate the word "chug", which automatically makes railroading sound like some outmoded, old-fashioned form of transportation to readers. Anyone else notice this?

Richard W. Symmes

elecuyer replied:
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And railroad preservationists are always "big boys playing with trains."

-Ed Lecuyer
(Who, admittedly, still has a small collection of Lionel in a box in my basement.)

James Patten replied:
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We hope to be able to send #9 on a "grand tour" to Maine's two footers, depending on any agreements we reach with the locomotive's owner, Mr. King.  Putting it on some track in Randolph would be nice, as well.  Even if we are able to do that, occasionally lettering the engine for the other railroads would be a nice idea.

When we last lettered #10 for Pleasure Island, it was 2004 and the engine was just returning to service, so it made for some hectic work.  Perhaps we should do it again next year for a few weeks, this time without worry of downtime (hopefully).

jockellis replied:
Quote
You might tell a reporter that they have a chance to be the first journalist in recent history to write a story without using chug or other offensive descriptions.
Also, I believe 3M makes the film that sign companies use for their Computer Aided Signage (CAS) equipment. I bet they have one line of films which are like the sticky notes they hold the patent to. Having signage made from easy to remove film would make such ventures much easier.
Jock Ellis
Cumming, GA
Georgia Association of Railroad Passengers

PS
I sent in my initial dues today. It sure is easy to get into your club.

Dave Buczkowski replied:
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Jock;
Easy to get in, very difficult to get out... "Just when I thought I was out, they kept pulling me back in."
Dave

James Patten replied:
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When I was planning #10's relettering, I got some magnetic sign backing and had the lettering professionally done.  Unfortunately when I went to attach the lettering to the already cut sign things ended up crooked.  Steve H. had some magic tape which he used to mask the borders of the sign, which helped some.
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Re: WW&F No. 10 - Official Work Thread
« Reply #26 on: January 22, 2009, 03:37:29 AM »
MODERATORS NOTE:
#10's suspension movement....... has been converted from the pre-July 2008 WW&F Discussion Forum.
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C130Engineer wrote:
Quote
Hey all, wish I could help with some work on the railway, but I'm here in Iraq for 4 more months so sorry. Keep up the good work.
Anyway, I had a question about the driver suspension movement on #10, how much does it really move? I'm working on a new locomotive design (steam) and I am not to sure how the suspension works on steam locos (I have seen many different designs). Also, how are the cylinder cocks operated?
Rob

petecosmob replied:
Quote
Hope you're enjoyinng the sand- er, I mean sun!
I was there this time last year. Got back in January!
Most steam locomotives have independently sprung drivers which utilize leaf-springs. Then, depending on the wheel arrangement, there are (usually) idler wheels fore and aft. The forward set  are to assist in guidance around sharper curves while the rear set is primarily to support the firebox. (Earlier models with smaller fireboxes/boilers did not need the rear set.)
There are many volumes on locomotive design, but I will leave that to someone else here to provide.
Good luck! Come home soon, and in one piece!

gordon cook replied:
Quote
Quote
Hey all, wish I could help with some work on the railway, but I'm here in Iraq for 4 more months so sorry. Keep up the good work.
Anyway, I had a question about the driver suspension movement on #10, how much does it really move? I'm working on a new locomotive design (steam) and I am not to sure how the suspension works on steam locos (I have seen many different designs). Also, how are the cylinder cocks operated?
Rob
Hi Rob, I'll take a quick shot at your question, having worked on #10's suspension during rebuilding.
The very important function of springing all the wheels on a locomotive is to keep the weight equalized on each wheel.  A properly sprung locomotive is marvelous thing!
For the drivers, this maximizes the adhesion; for any lead or trailing trucks, this distributes the weight and / or provides guidance through curves.
#10, having only 4 driving wheels, is the simplest arrangement, and each side is independent. Each leaf spring is centered over the drivers' axles. The front of the front spring is attached to the frame, the rear of that and the front of the rear spring are attached through a lever which is pivoted in the middle. The rear of the rear spring is again attached to the frame.
The middle of each leaf spring bears down on the driving box through a 'staple', or upside down 'U' shaped piece, which goes around the top of the frame so  the legs sit on the box. So the weight of the engine is transferred from the frames, through the springs, and down onto the axles of the drivers.
If either driver tries to move up or down, that motion is relayed to the other driver on that side through the lever, which is called an equalizer bar. The boxes are not tight in the frames so that they can tolerate the tilting of the axles and not bind up.
There are much more elaborate arrangements that include side to side equalization and includes the pilot or trailing trucks.
The 10 is a true Forney, so that the rear of the engine's frame is supported by a 4-wheel  truck. This has a swing rod type of suspension so that the trucks' frames and wheels can move from side to side. The bolster is suspended at each end from the truck side frames by hangers. This type of truck tends to center itself because as it is forced off center, the rods actually lift the bolster and the engine. This makes #10 track much better when backing up, because the truck acts like a 4 wheel lead truck. George Mansfield was right!
The suggestion of looking up a couple of engineering texts is a good one, because there is much to know about this so your engine will work properly. I have found a lot of interesting old engineering texts in Google books.
Cylinder cocks, at least on #10, are a simple valve that opens when a pin is pushed upwards. There's one under each end of the cylinder. There is a flat piece underneath them, that has 'ramps' cut into it, and that piece is captured in hangers so that when it moves from back to front, the ramps push the pins up and open the valves.
A simple set of levers from the cab moves the sliding piece forward and back. We have a foot operated bell crank so it's easy to operate while our hands are busy with throttle, brake, whistle, etc. The foot crank moves a reach rod, which is attached to a bell crank mounted in front of the cylinder saddle. That bell crank pivot is also  a cross rod that provides the movement for the fireman's side. The The other end of the bell crank is positioned so that it moves the slider underneath the cylinders.
I hope this helps, and thanks for your service.
_________________
Gawdon

C130Engineer replied:
Quote
I have been studying allot of the narrow gauge loco designs thru photos and such and I notice that #10 (and #9) are "road" locos with suspension, and the "industrial" locos have nil for suspension, but that does make sense due to the different uses. I will be looking for plans for a 0-4-0ST Bagnall, and if anyone has any info on a bullhead boiler and how they are built.
I really like the thought of these smaller locomotives, because they are simple. Anyway, I'll keep digging around the net for more info. Thanks.
Rob
http://www.amertonrailway.co.uk/Dcp01092-600.jpg[/url]

Stephen Hussar replied:
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Here's the image linked from Rob's posting.

jockellis replied:
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With the wheels at rest, the connecting rod(s) is both adjacent side and hypotenuse as it is the same length as the wheelbase. But if a bump compresses the spring on one axle, the wheels form a triangle with the wheelbase being the adjacent side and the connecting rod being the longer hypotenuse. How does that work?
Jock Ellis

Steve Smith replied:
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Jock,
Interesting question!
I'm guessing you are wondering how, given a fixed distance maintained by the frame between two successive driving axles, and given a fixed center-to-center distance between the bearings of a side rod, a rise of one axle relative to another can be accommodated without violating the laws of geometry, i.e., stretching the hypotenuse, which is the side rod.
My hunch is that for normally encountered humps or bumps in the rail, any or all of three sources of play take care of it. The types of play that occur to me are 1) between side rod bearings and the crankpins, 2) between driving box bearings and the driving axle journals, and 3) between the driving boxes and the pockets in the frame.
Perhaps if a really bad bump is encountered, causing quite a difference in axle elevations of successive axles, a side rod might elongate a bit.
These are just hunches of mine. Perhaps an expert on the subject can enlighten us.
Steve Smith

Steve Smith replied:
Quote
Jock,
Further on the subject of stretching side rods: Germany at one time had narrow gage steam locomotives with a very interesting side rod linkage called the Klose System that enabled four-coupled locomotives to negotiate extremely sharp curves. If you're curious, log onto
http://www.dself.dsl.pipex.com/
then click on "Unusual Steam Locomotives"
then click on "Klose to The Edge"
The explanation of that maintenance man's nightmare was too brief for me to understand exactly how the system lengthened the side rods on the outside of the curve while shortening them on the inside of the curve, all while the locomotive was running, but apparently it did.
At risk of getting off topic, I recommend also that you click on "Diesel-Pneumatic Locomotives." Too bad that diesels didn't evolve like that design; there would have been something for both steam fans and diesel fans!
Steve Smith
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Re: WW&F No. 10 - Official Work Thread
« Reply #27 on: January 26, 2009, 12:29:28 AM »
MODERATORS NOTE:
Nozzles in #10 has been converted from the pre-July 2008 WW&F Discussion Forum.
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Josh Botting wrote:
Quote
Did the nozzels work better or worse?

Ray Davidowski replied:
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And may I ask what/where these nozzles are?

Stephen Hussar replied:
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Thanks, all!

Ray, hopefully Gordon or Jason will add to this, but I believe it was determined that the original nozzles were "mathematically" too small, perhaps creating some extra back pressure. By comparison here is a photo of the originals taken inside the spark arrestor with the engine under steam. (don't try this at home!)

Jason M Lamontagne replied:
Quote
Two sets of nozzles were tried- the second set worked very well.  We suspect the first set will work better during summer months.

Nozzles are inthe smokebox and direct cylinder exhaust up the stack, creating draft on the fire.  The harder the exhaust, the more draft.  There is a balance between the level of this draft- increased with smaller nozzles, and cylinder back pressure (bad)- also increased with smaller nozzles.

I should mention Gordon, who did most of this work, and is great at adopting a number of small projects like this, thinking about them carefully, and following through with them.

see ya
Jason

Ray Davidowski replied:
Quote
Aah, so these nozzles are expanding the cylinder exhaust as it enters the smokebox.  Thanks for the explanation!  I have the basic idea of how steam locos work, but know nothing about the particular internal components.  As an engineer I'm naturally curious about all this stuff, let alone thermodynamics and transport processes/fluids were my favorite classes.    It's making sense now.

Now I'm on to the Eames vacuum brake system...I just got Vol 5 of "the book" last week, and it really is great to read all the details, which lead to more questions haha.

gordon cook replied:
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Thanks Steve, for the documentation of our little 'experiment'.
The saga....
In one of those moments of reflection before dozing off, my research into the spark arrestor (or "SuperDraft"<span style="font-size: 9px; line-height: normal">tm
Anyway, Jason and I had an ongoing discussion about this, surmising that the 10's distinctive 'bark' is likely due to small nozzles, and as he said this results in a high velocity exhaust jet and lots of draft, but also high back pressure in the cylinders.
I made the leap that the high back pressure is why 10 seems to prefer the lshortest cutoff notch, and doesn't respond to when the Johnson bar is dropped down at anything over 5 mph.
So we agreed on modifying the original nozzles so that we could easily experiment with different diameters and tapers. For some reason, not obvious now, we decided to try this out before the Xmas trains.
Steve's picture shows the original try, which was about 63% bigger in area. After I installed them I quickly realized that they are further apart than they should be, and likely the steam jet would impinge slightly on the edge of the smoke stack. They really should cant in towards the middle of the stack. If any of the steam jet hits so it is deflected off into the smokebox, it will really kill the draft.
Anyway, after a late start on a 12 degree morning, off we went, and she was working really hard, with pressure dropping and the injector not able to keep up. And this was a light move! The sound had changed dramatically to a much softer chuff.
It was apparent that the snow on and between the rails and the below 20 degree weather was creating a lot more drag than I could imagine. Slip and catch, slip and catch, not much traction with the very cold rail and the snow.
Jason said 'Don't stop on Davis' and, of course, that's about when we did.
We weren't sure about the draft, she seemed to be steaming poorly, so after getting off  Davis' crossing we decided to return and put the nozzles back to near their original configuration. With the material we had we got the diameter to about 30% bigger in area, with a similar internal shape.
Back out on the main, things seemed a little better, but still working very hard and using  a lot of coal and water. Her chug was back to almost normal. You really had to stay ahead on the coal and water, just like a very heavy train.
We got up to Sheepscot Mills and figured it was good enough and headed back to get a train.
We picked up the two flatcars, and were going to take the caboose, but decided that with the late hour we would drop that so we'd be sure to make it to Alna Center. I laid in a LOT of coal, got the water up over half a glass, and so we had a pretty good start this time.
Off we went, more slip-catch, and Jason got us up to pretty good track speed (over 5!) but  she was working about as hard on level track as she does up the grade to MP6  with 3-4 cars. I managed to keep enough coal in her but the fireman's injector couldn't keep up and we had to stop just past the trestle to catch up. We then proceeded up to AC, ran around and headed back. I took over on the way back and had to work steam all the way, downhill!!  I mean, the train would slow down without power!
Conclusion: #10 is a baby compared to most engines and really doesn't have the power and punch to deal with the cold & snow. Otherwise none, really. The conditions were so different that any comparison with what we were used to was impossible. We'll continue the experiment next season.
The real value of this for me was in running a steam engine in very cold weather with lots of snow on the track. It was apparent early on that this was a real challenge for both machine and man. ( We were in the relatively warm cab, James was out on the flatcar as brakey, thank you James) Yes, I'm a wussy desk jockey, and not 20 something anymore, but when you can't oil around because the oil is like mud, and the first thing is the water glass drain freezes, and then the brake line, and the snow makes the brakes pretty useless, and you're using twice as much coal and water just to move the engine around..... well, I am glad I got a chance to experience it. We've all read about winter railroading in Maine and this made those stories very real to me.
And much happier that I don't have to do that every day!
_________________
Gawdon

Jason M Lamontagne replied:
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Well said by Gordon, especially the thanks to James and winter railroading talk- imagine dealing with 10 foot drifts in sub zero weather on a two foot gauge line-

see ya
Jason

Steam replied:
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I remember the late "Carl" Purinton (founder of the Brotherhood of Live Steamers in America in 1932) talking about the steam blast from the exhaust nozzle having to fill the "petticoat pipe" which was a funnel shaped device on the bottom of the smoke stack (inside the smokebox) at just the right angle in order to create a proper "vacuum" in the smokebox. This was relative to live steam locomotives that he built. He was also a fireman on the B&M in the 1930s and 40s.  He said that if the distance from the top of the exhaust nozzle to the bottom of the petticoat pipe was off, then the engine would steam poorly.  How does that relate to the experience with #10 which you just related?

Richard Symmes

tomc replied:
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That is true about the pettycoat.  There is a formula for the stack lenght, the pettycoat lenght and where the nozzel SB below it.  I think the nozzels could be raised to improve draft and maybe angled to hit the pipe better.

Tom C.
_________________
Later;
tom_srclry_com

elecuyer replied:
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This topic was split from
"Pictures from yesterday..."
http://www.setbb.com/wwfmuseum/viewtopic.php?t=457

For reference, here are the new nozzles, copied from Steve's original post:

Photo of new nozzles inside spark arrestor.

Jason M Lamontagne replied:
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This is one of the problems that Gordon and I suspect... No 10 came with no petticoat and still does not have one.

There are actually two similarly shaped "cones" typically inside of a smokebox- both are parabolic (theoretically) in shape, and serve to combine the expanding steam jet with the accelerating mass of gas as it aims up the stack, just like a combining tube in an injector.  The petticoat, as mentioned, is usually vertically adjustable and ends before the bottom of the stack- i.e. there is space above it to collect more gas.  The other is the stack flare, which is exactly the same thing except it is attached to the underside of the stack and has no opening above it.

In our circumstance, No 10 does not have the space for both; with the spark arrestor designed by Gordon after a 1945 design dubbed "superdraft", there is a straight extension of the stack to connect it with the top plate of the arrestor.  As such, there is only about 15" remaining of vertical space to put anything.  We do want to do something though.

Incidentally we designed the arrestor with 3 vertical threaded rods, on which can be mounted a vertically adjustable petticoat.  One advantage of the "superdraft" concept though is that it naturally smooths out the draft distribution in the smokebox (and by extension the firebox).  This is the chief advantage of an adjustable petticoat.  Because of this we may just install a fixed stack flare.

Seperately speaking, our spark arrestor is wonderful; it allows the complete gutting of the smokebox, for access to punch tubes, play with nozzles, or what have you, in 10 minutes (with a hot engine) instead of 1/2 a day (engine must be cold) as was the case with the old "master mechanic's standard" front end.

Hope this isn't too much- but it's fun to share some of the inner workings of our over-active though simplistic shop minds.

see ya
Jason

gordon cook replied:
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The evidence from soot build up on the inside of the spark arrestor is that with the small original nozzles there is slight impingement of the exhaust jets on the edges of the stack extension.
With large nozzles this very well would be worse, but the original nozzles had a sharp edge on the top which would tend to spread the jet out faster than a properly tapered and flared edge.
So I hoped that the large nozzles that we originally tried might work out.
From the exhaust sound the back pressure was likely lower, but we couldn't tell if the draft was affected because of the extreme weather which affects everything from injector efficiency to thermal loss in the cylinders.
A petticoat, IMHO, might help the impingement with the large nozzles, but after thinking about it if the jet hits the walls of the stack too soon it will be lower velocity than it might otherwise be due to the drag, and that part of the jet will not be available to move the air in the smokebox along either.
So I believe the right thing to do is cant the nozzles toward the center so they converge a short distance up from the stack bottom and play with nozzle diameter and shape to optimize velocity verses back pressure.
And experiment in the warm, sunny weather!
_________________
Gawdon

James Patten replied:
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One of Frank's videos was taken from the cab with the first set of new nozzles.  Even though the sound is muffled a bit, I can tell the chuff is softer but there's another noise around the chuffs that sounds like the draft wasn't working very well.

gordon cook replied:
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Frank's video's really illustrate the fun we had.
Note how the drivers slip and then catch, and as James observed the different exhaust sound from the first (cab) video, which was taken on the first run up the line, from the last three, after we changed the nozzles back to a smaller diameter.
I do agree with Jason that the petticoat likely helps direct and smooth the flow of gases into the stack, increasing efficiency. I have read that they are supposed to help equalize the draft across the tubes, but I'm not convinced that is actually true, and the Lempor doesn't have a traditional petticoat.
Just to make sure your heads are spinning after all the technical musings, all of this theory doesn't take into account the fact that the everything going on is very dynamic. In other words, the steam flow and pressure in the front end is wildly varying as the exhaust pulses exit the cylinders and flow up the stack, so assumptions based on a steady flow could be far from what is really happening. 
_________________
Gawdon

Wayne Laepple replied:
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Trying to dazzle us with techno-speak, are you?

You guys are having way too much fun!

John McNamara replied:
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You guys are having way too much fun!
...and they still haven't told us where the holder for the Lionel smoke pellets is.
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Re: WW&F No. 10 - Official Work Thread
« Reply #28 on: January 26, 2009, 12:58:52 AM »
MODERATORS NOTE:
Builders photo of WW&F 10? has been converted from the pre-July 2008 WW&F Discussion Forum.
Some formatting may have been removed or modified from the original postings that appear quoted in this topic.
Information contained within this post may be superseded by more recent postings and conversations.

Scot Lawrence wrote:
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Maybe this is already well-known, but I have never seen it mentioned anywhere on-line..

I think I might have found the builders photo for number 10!
it is here:

http://www.ironhorse129.com/Prototype/SteamClass2004/Vulcan/vulcan_574.jpg

It has been on this site:

http://www.ironhorse129.com/Prototype/SteamClass2004/HomePage.htm

for a few years.

"Underwood, Short & Reeves" and "Bellview Plantation" match number 10's history..and all loco details seem to match the current number 10..

the only question is, how many forneys did Vulcan build for them?
just one? or several?
since there is no road number on the unit, its hard to say with 100% confidance this is in fact number 10...unless it is known that US&R-Bellview only had one Vulcan of this type..in which case, it would have to be number 10!

anyone have an Underwood/Bellview roster or other info?

thanks,
Scot

Stephen Hussar replied:
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I think it's pretty clear cut that the locomotive in the photo is WW&F No 10, Vulcan Construction No 574. Doesn't RRMPA maintain the Vulcan archive? Probably a safe bet that the original glass plates are etched with identification marks. However, I vaguely recall being told that No 10 did have a sister somewhere...in Canada?


Joe Fox replied:
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I believe that is the photo that is in the machine shop. I could be wrong, but it look just like it. The photo is right beside the entrance way to the boiler room.

Joe

James Patten replied:
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You can find the builder's photo of #10 at the WW&F website.  Just go to About Us -&gt; Equipment -&gt; 10, and scroll down a bit and you'll find it.

Yes, you did find the builder's photo.  RRMPA is where we got the photo from.

I don't know if #10 has a sister in Canada.  You may have heard that #9 has a sister in Canada, supposedly the only other remaining Portland Co built locomotive.

Scot Lawrence replied:
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thanks!

good to know that really is number 10's photo!

Scot
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Re: WW&F No. 10 - Official Work Thread
« Reply #29 on: April 08, 2009, 01:14:36 AM »
How often is #10 taken down for a washout, inspection and lube?

Rob