Author Topic: ICC Valuation Sheets pt.IV  (Read 2283 times)

Ed Lecuyer

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ICC Valuation Sheets pt.IV
« on: April 06, 2009, 01:54:43 AM »
MODERATORS NOTE:
ICC Valuation Sheets pt.IV has been converted from the pre-July 2008 WW&F Discussion Forum.
Some formatting may have been removed or modified from the original postings that appear quoted in this topic.
Information contained within this post may be superseded by more recent postings and conversations.

Stephen Hussar wrote:
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Last 3 sheets...




_________________
*                *                    *                   *
"Give me enough Swedes and whiskey and I'll build a railroad to Hell."
- James J. Hill

Dave Buczkowski replied:
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I note that No. 3 is listed as a Combination Passenger Car. Was it renumbered from the W&Q days to 11 or 12 or is it mis-listed on the Val Sheets? And do any pictures of the Derrick exist?
Dave

James Patten replied:
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I think W&Q Coach 3 was renumbered to WW&F Coach 10, with coach 2 numbered to 11 (I don't know why the reverse numbering).  Coach 4 burned before the renumbering.  Frankly I'm surprised Coach 3 is listed, since note that #5's boiler is heating the Wiscasset shops so I would have thought Coach 3 would have been long gone to Bridgton.

The combination cars 1, 5, 6, and 7 were renumbered to 1, 2, 3, and 4.  I'm thinking #7 may still have been the open car, or not present at all because we don't see it here.

Dave Crow replied:
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James,

Wasn't 5 a straight coach?  It would have been re-numbered to #12 as shown in the valuation.  By the time of the valuation, coach 3 had been changed into #10 and then sold to Bridgton.  The combines would have been 1, 4, 6, and 7, with 4 burning at some point and having its trucks used under the caboose.

Dave Crow

Mike Fox replied:
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How bad do you suppose the person typing fussed when they misspelled Sharpe for coach 11? No white out back then or even a delete key.
Mike

Wayne Laepple replied:
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I've noticed several typos throughout the valuation reports. I suspect they were typed up by a secretary who was trying to decipher scribbled field notes. Lord knows my typing stinks bigtime, and I'm reading my own notes!

I've been reading ICC accident reports on line, all of which were transcribed and then scanned, and some of the misspellings are real doozies.

Stephen Hussar replied:
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I'm looking at the capacity of flatcar #118, which looks like it's listed at approx. 4250 lbs., and I've often wondered during track-laying how much each load of stone weighs...seems like more than a couple of tons... but is it?
Can the 2 ton capacity be accurate?
_________________
*                *                    *                   *
"Give me enough Swedes and whiskey and I'll build a railroad to Hell."
- James J. Hill

Stewart Rhine replied:
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Flat 118 can hold around 7 tons of stone.

Wayne is right about the typos.  Note that caboose 301's construction date is listed as 1834.

BM1455 replied:
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What I think is interesting is the mention of car #10.  Has anyone ever seen plans for a Portland company derrick car?  It could be that it is just a modified box or flat car but it could also be something that the railroad orderred in order to build the railroad.  With all of the bridges and trestles this would hav been well used I would think.  It is funny that it does not realy show up in photos.
Eric.

Dana Deering replied:
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You stole my thunder, Eric.  That's the one that really caught my attention.  I wonder what it looked like?  The B&SR had a derrick car, too but there are no photos or plans that I know of.  I wonder if the pans are at the MHS?

Dana

Wayne Laepple replied:
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I suspect the derrick car was either a standard flat or perhaps a shorter version, with a wooden derrick mounted amidships. The derrick would have been a wooden version of the crane we have that was on the standard gauge pushcar, or it may have been an inverted "L" style boom. On either, there would have been a winch arrangement with a series of gears, along with a band brake to control the descent of loads.

Wayne Laepple replied:
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Do you suppose the capacity of the WW&F's flatcars as listed above could have been the result of a typo? Perhaps they were to be listed at 14,250 lbs. capacity.

Stephen Hussar replied:
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That would make sense as the boxcar capacity is listed as 20,000 lbs. Geez, makes you wonder about all the other numbers in there!
_________________
*                *                    *                   *
"Give me enough Swedes and whiskey and I'll build a railroad to Hell."
- James J. Hill

BM1455 replied:
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Actualy on page 108 in vol. IV of NGSV there are three pictures of what I suspect is the derrick car.  They don't show all that much that would reveal the workings of the car but it should be noted that it is at the site of a wreck.
(I don't think that the car would have been anything like the 4 wheeled model that was posted earlier.)  The car appears to be a shortened boxcar like contraption that likely has a shortened flatcar elemant to part of it.  In otherwords, part boxcar- part flatcar.  The pictures do not show all of the car but there seems to be some space left between the next car and the box section of the suposed derrick car.  This could be a break in the train or it could be the flatcar part of the car which is out of view below some debris.
Eric.

Stephen Hussar replied:
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_________________
*                *                    *                   *
"Give me enough Swedes and whiskey and I'll build a railroad to Hell."
- James J. Hill

BM1455 replied:
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Steve,
That latest photo is the general idea of what #10 was probably like.  I think that the lifting boom mechanism on the model is probably way more than #10 ever had.  I was thinking about it last evening and remembered some very early B&L and/or Northern RR derrick cars I had seen pictures of.  They were very minimalistic.  Half flat/ half box and a very simple single thin boom, or one verticle pole with a boom.  (If you have ever seen photos of the derricks used in the Vermont granite quaries they are very simple but effective.  (The old derricks I have seen photos of were nothing more than a pole(s) with pullies placed on fat/ box cars.)  This might make some sense as one looks at the pictures of the car on Pg. 108 in vol. IV.  The upper sliding end doors on each corner are probably where the cables for the winch would exit the car.  It is possible that a simple boom mechanism was portable/ removable and was only put in place on the end of the car when in use, then dissasembled and placed on the flatcar section for movement of the car.

Mike Fox replied:
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Eric,
There is another photo I have just found that might be of the derrick car.A Photo on the bottom of page 82 of Over the rails by Steam by Clinton Thurlow shows an overall picture of the Wiscasset shop and upper yard. In the line of cars is a car with the boarded up windows and no roof walk. It is in the distance but next to the Flanger. Definately not a boxcar. But no derrick on the front so it might be like you said. Only set it up when needed.
Mike

BM1455 replied:
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Mike,
I would like to see the picture you mentioned some time if you can bring it to the museum.  I was telling Steve H. at the museum today about the old timer derrick cars I mentioned in an earlier post.  One had a pole and a boom and the other just a boom.  They were clearly just wooden or metal poles with pullies.  Verry simple and easy to dissasemble.
My guess would be that the flatcar section of the WW&F car is where they stored all that rig and when they got to the area they needed to work at they set it up rather quickly.  Note that the end of the car is where the sliding doors for the ropes to the winches (Inside the boxcar section) are so the boom probably went off of the non-flatcar end of the car. This would enable them to get rite up the any area they were trying to lift.  This would be especially good for lifting stringers into place on the tresstles in Wiscasset.
Maybe they had sliding doors on the flat car end too but no photos have shown up of that side of the car.  The benefit to that would be that you could lift things onto the car itself.  The winches would just work in revers to have the lines go out the other side of the car?  The boom would just be set up on the flatcar side in this case.  It is possible that this car was a double ended rig which may explain why the derrick does not appeare to be perminantly set up as it is not vissable in the photos.
Eric.

Mike Fox replied:
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In the photo in the book I mentioned, one end of the car is close to a boxcar. It would have been the north end at the time. It would be very interesting to see something like what has been described here. Essentially a tool car,but half flat for the derrick side of it. There has got to be a photo of it someplace.
Mike

Ira Schreiber replied:
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What Mike describes was very common in the late 1890's-1900's.
A half box car body, usually cut down from a full length car, and the other half could be used for most anything.
I have seen examples of stored wheels, tools, and derricks used on the open half of the car.

Stephen Hussar replied:
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Here's an actual photo of a similar car (if not the same car) I posted a model photo of earlier in this thread. Does MHS have a list of PCo. drawings?

Mike Fox replied:
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Looks good Steve. Accept it says Rio Grande on the side. It does look like the picture Eric was talking about. Perhaps we could build one like that.
Mike

jockellis replied:
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It's easy to see why the WWF was not profitable. It couldn't depreciate like businesses today. I bought a Compugraphic Editwriter in the late 1970s as the IRS began allowing businesses to depreciate in (I think 5 years instead of 7) and the typesetting machine about paid for itself that way.
Does anyone know how long it took to fully depreciate machinery in those days? This was before IRS or was it?
Also, was the ICC over all railroads even if they did not cross state lines? Many states had railroad commissions to keep railroads thoroughly under their thumbs. Did Maine?
Jock Ellis

Stewart Rhine replied:
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Jock,  Maine had a state railroad commision for many years.  A report was produced each year in book form.  We have a number of the reports in the museum archives collection.

Allan Fisher replied:
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The Maine Railroad Commissioners stopped publishing their annual reports after 1914 so I suspect they abrogated their oversight of railroads to the new ICC, which as you know , required a complete inventory and report of all common carrier railroads in 1917.

The ICC inspector is the one who shopped the WW&F Locomotives 2, 3, & 4 in late 1932, which caused the WW&F owner to buy the remaining assets of the Kennebec Central, and move the locomotives KC3 & KC4 (Now WW&F #9) to Wiscasset. I believe he also moved the two KC boxcars (which had been stored across Water St  in Randolph on the Main Track after abandonment and thus saved them from the great 1936 floods) to the Windsor fairgrounds.

Josh Botting replied:
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Allan,

Are they still there?

Allan Fisher replied:
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I understand that the KC Boscars that supposedly were at the Windsor Fairgrounds for storage were scrapped in the early to mid 50's.
Ed Lecuyer
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