Author Topic: Arthur Griffin B&H 1940 excursion photos  (Read 4919 times)

Jeff Schumaker

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Re: Arthur Griffin B&H 1940 excursion photos
« Reply #30 on: April 13, 2020, 03:36:16 PM »
Upon reading though the ndgdiscussion thread, I liked the "reservation flag" idea the best.

As for the spittoon idea, I offer the following opera highlight (not) from Carmen:
"Toreador, toreador,
Don't spit on the floor,
Use the cuspidor,
That's what it's there for."
The whirring sound you hear is George Bizet spinning in his grave.

Isn't that from a Bugs Bunny cartoon? :o

Jeff S.
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Bill Reidy

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Re: Arthur Griffin B&H 1940 excursion photos
« Reply #31 on: April 13, 2020, 04:08:40 PM »
So to add to the mystery, take a look at the builder's photo of the interior of W&Q coach No. 3 on page 43 of Two Feet to Tidewater (second and third editions).  The rings are not present in that photo.  So were these a B&SR/B&H addition?  Photo evidence in Two Feet to the Lakes suggest yes, based on John Meixel's post on the Narrow Gauge Discussion Forum.  This is an interior photo of the Pondicherry.

I still think it is something to do with drapery.. Need an outside builders photo that you can see through the window

Based on the discussion so far, I agree with Mike.  Interesting thing about that photo in Two Feet to the Lakes -- the Pondicherry's rings were not solid.  Looks like there was a removable bar on the sides facing the aisle.
What–me worry?

Gordon Cook

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Re: Arthur Griffin B&H 1940 excursion photos
« Reply #32 on: April 13, 2020, 05:38:05 PM »
I would suggest we look at what is in the picture;

1. The rings are about 2" to 3" in diameter
2. The rings appear to be not very sturdy
3. The rings are oriented vertically
4. There is one centered over every window
5. They don't appear to swivel although their orientation to the wall is difficult to determine
6. There are coat/hat hangers in several locations
7. There are oil lamp holders already in several locations
8. Their usefulness would have to justify their expense.
9. Two appear to hold a large, light colored cup-like object

Based on these characteristics:
1. They would not hold anything very heavy
2. They are oriented in the wrong direction to hold any open container that would contain a liquid
3. They would be for something that is needed at every seat or window
4. The size is too large and are not necessary at every window for a conductor cord, and two have something in them
5. The size and shape make no sense for a ticket holder

I would suggest the key details are that they are needed at every window and two have something in them, which should be a clue. If that something was glass then most may have been lost, but what would they be for?

Honestly, I have no idea what they would be for. But it sure is fun to try to figure out.
Gawdon

Mike Fox

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Re: Arthur Griffin B&H 1940 excursion photos
« Reply #33 on: April 13, 2020, 06:48:47 PM »
Well, I dug out my photo collection finally. I found this previously published image, that I own a copy of, with an interior shot of yet another car, with both the hoops in question, and lots of coat/hat hooks. I was unable to find any photos of the hoops in use, and all my Bridgton reference has been packed and in storage for the summer..
So here it is.

Mike
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Pete "Cosmo" Barrington

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Re: Arthur Griffin B&H 1940 excursion photos
« Reply #34 on: April 13, 2020, 11:25:06 PM »
This IS a neat little mystery!
So, we have the original photo on (thread) page 1, and the second from a similar car on this page, both of which appear in the NG Forum thread along with the drawing of an as-delivered contemporary coach, albeit of std ga design, showing items in common:
1) the rings in question,
2) kerosene lamps (intact or otherwise)
3) conductor's bell/pull chord (or rings to facilitate) centerline near the ceiling
4) coat/hat hooks separate from the rings in question.

Going back to anecdotal here, gloves are indeed a ubiquitous item of the times, and still are today, but they can be easily folded and placed inside a coat pocket or purse.
UMBRELLAS, also ubiquitous, are not! They would want to be retracted and hung where they can drip-dry away from shirts, trousers, etc.
So I'm leaning more toward umbrella hangers at this point.
That could change again with further evidence.

Kevin Kierstead

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Re: Arthur Griffin B&H 1940 excursion photos
« Reply #35 on: April 14, 2020, 12:05:31 AM »
The rings appear to have a thicker, round, barrel section vertically on their circumference. This reminds me of a clamp that would have a bolt passed through it to facilitate tightening. But clamp what?
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Jon Chase

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Re: Arthur Griffin B&H 1940 excursion photos
« Reply #36 on: April 14, 2020, 12:44:42 AM »
Besides the illustration, referenced by Cosmo above, on the NG Discussion Forum from John White's "The American Railroad Passenger Car" that shows similar rings on a standard gauge coach of more-or-less similar vintage to the two original B&SR coaches, an internet image search (depending on your search engine and search terms) will reveal other examples of such rings, sometimes incorporated as part of luggage rack end castings.  I've attached an example, from what appears to be a museum setting, in which hats are shown hanging from some of the rings.  Even so, I'd argue that this may be a misinterpretation of the actual purpose, as rings mounted directly on the walls in the B&SR example would seem ill-suited to such use.  In fact, in the illustration from White's book, the rings appear to part of the bottom of the rack castings, clearly impossible to hang a hat from.

Cosmo may have the right idea regarding umbrellas - even though someone on the NG Forum rejected that interpretation because hanging umbrellas would swing and mar the woodwork!  Clearly that criticism misses the point that the umbrellas could have been slid horizontally between two rings.  In addition to Cosmo's umbrella idea, one may note from many old photos that walking sticks and canes were once in common use.  (When I was a kid, walking sticks were many decades out of fashion but quite a few  elderly people walked with canes; nowadays I suppose they get hip replacements instead...)

Especially given the examples of such rings being incorporated into luggage racks, I suggest that the path to an answer isn't imaginative speculation about gloves or even miniature spittoons (!), nor even "scientific method" processes of elimination.  Rather, we should realize that railroad car builders did not typically manufacture the fittings (such as lamps, luggage racks, and seating) themselves, but purchased them from suppliers of such items, such as Hale & Kilburn or Heywood-Wakefield for seats, and Adams & Westlake (later Adlake) for racks, lamps, locksets, and other items.  While I don't have access to an Adlake car trimmings catalogue for the era in question (or for the somewhat later era suggested by the attached photo), such resources exist.  I would assume that catalog images of luggage racks with the ring and others without it would be accompanied by text descriptions of the functional differences and relative advantages.  Such a catalog might also show individual rings for use without luggage racks, as in the B&SR example.







 
« Last Edit: April 14, 2020, 01:22:06 AM by Jon Chase »

Steve Smith

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Re: Arthur Griffin B&H 1940 excursion photos
« Reply #37 on: April 14, 2020, 01:20:19 AM »
Well my hat's off to you, Jon! Sure looks like they're for hanging hats.

Mike Fox

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Re: Arthur Griffin B&H 1940 excursion photos
« Reply #38 on: April 14, 2020, 06:13:11 AM »
Doubtful they are hat holders, as they would be over the coat hooks, which look like a capital G. They have nothing to do with lamps, as the 2 lamps in the photo I shared has hoods over them, that are not near the loops.

Thinking back to other pictures of the 19earlies, I still think they are purely decorative, to hold some decorative valance.
Mike
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Keith Taylor

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Re: Arthur Griffin B&H 1940 excursion photos
« Reply #39 on: April 14, 2020, 08:20:33 AM »


Cosmo may have the right idea regarding umbrellas - even though someone on the NG Forum rejected that interpretation because hanging umbrellas would swing and mar the woodwork!  Clearly that criticism misses the point that the umbrellas could have been slid horizontally between two rings. 
I doubt very much they are umbrella holders. If you were to hang them horizontally only every other seat would have use of them as there is but a single ring centered over each window. More than that, a wet umbrella would drip down onto the polished wood work and seat!
My current thinking is they are a practical joke! The builders put them there so that 100 years later enthusiasts would say....”What on Earth are these things for!!!!”

Keith

Jon Chase

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Re: Arthur Griffin B&H 1940 excursion photos
« Reply #40 on: April 14, 2020, 09:32:26 AM »
Keith, upon that reasoning, nobody would have used the coat hooks (which are equally prominent in the B&SR example, and quite often cast as part of the racks and centered over each window/seat bottom as in the ex-WW&F coach 3 photo) on rainy days either, out of similar fear of ruining the upholstery and woodwork.  Not to mention obscuring the view out the window in coach 3... demonstrating, among other things, that passengers 125 years ago may have had different expectations and priorities than tourists today.

In fact, the separate coat hooks shown in the B&SR coach photo are centered between the windows, not over each window, and thus are not only mounted directly on the intricately carved wooden wall panels, but also directly above the seat backs. Does anyone have an original B&SR rule book containing an order to the effect that "Trainmen are warned to not allow passengers to use the coat hooks on rainy days"?

I'm not saying that umbrellas or canes are the answer, but that the answer is most likely ascertainable based on evidence that's available, in places that quite likely include the archives of other railroad museums having copies of the relevant car trimmings catalogs for the periods in question.



Keith Taylor

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Re: Arthur Griffin B&H 1940 excursion photos
« Reply #41 on: April 14, 2020, 09:56:18 AM »
Jon....forgetting about dripping, there still aren’t enough loops to hang an umbrella horizontally. You need two and there is only one per seat.

Keith

Gordon Cook

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Re: Arthur Griffin B&H 1940 excursion photos
« Reply #42 on: April 14, 2020, 11:51:20 AM »
Further thoughts to ponder:

Based on the location, orientation, and shape, they don't appear to be useful for hanging anything like a cane or umbrella, or other article of clothing, purse, etc.

The only obvious clue is that two clearly have something in them. I would guess something made of glass due the reflection of the flash. 

Early Wireless Antennae?  Did Tesla have a summer home in Maine?  ;D
Gawdon

Harold Downey

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Re: Arthur Griffin B&H 1940 excursion photos
« Reply #43 on: April 14, 2020, 02:34:55 PM »
Nice idea to check period passenger car fixtures.  This is out of the 1909 Car Builders Dictionary.   A&W reference is Addison and Westlake. 

First - curtain rod items, second picture is hat and coat hooks.   

It's not definitive, but based on these I say they are curtain rod fixtures.

Correction:  that's Adams and Westlake... (thanks Keith)
« Last Edit: April 14, 2020, 03:34:02 PM by Harold Downey »

Harold Downey

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Re: Arthur Griffin B&H 1940 excursion photos
« Reply #44 on: April 14, 2020, 02:35:30 PM »
coat hooks