Author Topic: Event Pavilion for Alna Center - Official Reassembly Thread  (Read 47801 times)

John McNamara

  • Operating Volunteers
  • Inspector
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,391
    • View Profile
Re: Event Pavilion for Alna Center - Official Reassembly Thread
« Reply #105 on: December 19, 2019, 11:00:20 PM »
I am thinking long term though. If the time comes for a bathroom, we would need power for that. A waterpump would be the biggest draw..
I think the National Park Service and the Appalachian Mountain Club have extensive experience with wilderness toilet facilities. I volunteer to contact the AMC. However, we should keep in mind that, unlike the typical NPS/AMC application, the pavilion could present a surge load problem.

Bob Holmes

  • Museum Member
  • Engineer
  • ****
  • Posts: 526
    • View Profile
Re: Event Pavilion for Alna Center - Official Reassembly Thread
« Reply #106 on: December 19, 2019, 11:24:08 PM »
A couple of thoughts:

1.  Why not clear panels on both sides of the roof?

2.  Gov Mills is definitely a proponent of solar.  Maybe a special unique appeal to promote solar and tourism!?

Bill Baskerville

  • Museum Member
  • Dispatcher
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,077
  • Life Member
    • View Profile
Re: Event Pavilion for Alna Center - Official Reassembly Thread
« Reply #107 on: December 20, 2019, 01:06:40 AM »
As an AT 2000 miler hiker I have seen a great many wilderness facilities. Most of the newer ones require a few leaves or ground dunage to be sprinkled after each use.  Users are also expected to urinate outside before going inside for the remainder of their business.

A better source of solutions would be Peace Corps facilities for third world countries.
~ B2 ~ Wascally Wabbit & Gofer ~

Philip Marshall

  • Museum Member
  • Engineer
  • ****
  • Posts: 646
    • View Profile
Re: Event Pavilion for Alna Center - Official Reassembly Thread
« Reply #108 on: December 20, 2019, 01:46:27 AM »
Public land managers at the US Forest Service, BLM, National Park Service, etc. make a distinction between "wilderness" (=no vehicular access) and "back country" (=vehicular access but no utilities). I think "back country" toilet facilities would be a better model for AC than "wilderness", since that's essentially what we're dealing with. There are many designs (and vendors) available, even including pre-fab structures that are trucked in and dropped onto a concrete vault. Google "waterless vault toilet". There is no need to reinvent the wheel (or toilet) here. :)
« Last Edit: December 20, 2019, 01:57:26 AM by Philip Marshall »

Mike Fox

  • Museum Member
  • Superintendent
  • ********
  • Posts: 4,684
    • View Profile
Re: Event Pavilion for Alna Center - Official Reassembly Thread
« Reply #109 on: December 20, 2019, 09:09:13 AM »
The system we would need would have to handle volume and be clean. It would get a lot of use in a short amount of time, then sit for a week.

As far as putting the sky lights on both sides, that is possible. We only have a limited amount, but more could be purchased.
Mike
Doing way too much to list...

Benjamin Richards

  • Museum Member
  • Switchman
  • **
  • Posts: 94
    • View Profile
Re: Event Pavilion for Alna Center - Official Reassembly Thread
« Reply #110 on: December 20, 2019, 10:20:36 AM »
Solar power brings a whole new level of potential.
... there has to be a bank of batteries ... it does have potential.

"Solar power" ... "batteries" ... "potential" ... No one's gonna jump on that?  ;D ;D

Tough crowd today.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2019, 10:23:13 AM by Benjamin Richards »

Dave Crow

  • Museum Member
  • Fireman
  • ****
  • Posts: 344
    • View Profile
Re: Event Pavilion for Alna Center - Official Reassembly Thread
« Reply #111 on: December 20, 2019, 11:38:02 AM »
Mike,

I know that here in Maryland, any solar panel installation tied into the grid must be installed by a solar-cell certified electrician, not just any licensed electrician.  If the solar array feeds to a bank of batteries that then run an inverter system to provide 120 Vac, that brings other parts of the National Electrical Code into the review process.  Not saying it can't be done, just saying it might not be as low-cost as some might want... 

Dave Crow

John Kokas

  • Museum Member
  • Inspector
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,356
    • View Profile
Re: Event Pavilion for Alna Center - Official Reassembly Thread
« Reply #112 on: December 20, 2019, 11:47:24 AM »
I think what was meant was solar would be low cost versus having to run commercial power overhead and underground all the way from Rt. 218.  I think for the time being, a temporary solution of a generator(s) would be prudent as well as studying the feasibility of solar for the longer run.
Moxie Bootlegger

Paul Uhland

  • Museum Member
  • Dispatcher
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,075
    • View Profile
Re: Event Pavilion for Alna Center - Official Reassembly Thread
« Reply #113 on: December 20, 2019, 01:01:35 PM »
Sounds like a solar setup might be feasible. Running pole/underground power in for the distance needed would cost multi-THOUSANDS.
Paul Uhland

John McNamara

  • Operating Volunteers
  • Inspector
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,391
    • View Profile
Re: Event Pavilion for Alna Center - Official Reassembly Thread
« Reply #114 on: December 20, 2019, 01:06:25 PM »
I'm sorry that I got us started on this solar thing. We should all remember that the reasons we started the pavilion project were 1) it was donated to us, and 2) it would save us the cost and inconvenience of erecting a tent every time we wanted to have an event at AC.
 

Ed Lecuyer

  • Administrator
  • Superintendent
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,052
    • View Profile
    • wwfry.org
Re: Event Pavilion for Alna Center - Official Reassembly Thread
« Reply #115 on: December 20, 2019, 01:07:47 PM »
The solution Mike has started investigating would not involve running a new line with poles from 218. It's very clever and would be ideal.

There is a recently-convened Alna Center planning committee; all of whom monitor this forum regularly. Feel free to keep the ideas coming - all will be considered as we work through this.
Ed Lecuyer
Moderator, WW&F Forum

Wayne Laepple

  • Museum Member
  • Supervisor
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,846
    • View Profile
Re: Event Pavilion for Alna Center - Official Reassembly Thread
« Reply #116 on: December 20, 2019, 01:56:25 PM »
A couple of observations concerning the events pavilion. A free-standing solar power system sounds sexy, but someone who knows a whole lot more about such things needs to be consulted. At least at the outset, a generator will be more than adequate to provide power for amplifiers and a couple of lights. I attended one of the music concerts last summer, and the small generator set up 100 feet away from the tent could not be heard. I have seen quite a few food trucks with generators mounted on the back, and they are nearly inaudible when running. In such a large structure, some sort of lighting might be needed to help visitors find their way out after the show, especially in the fall when darkness arrives earlier.

As for toilet facilities, the greater problem is going to be the one of who cares for them. Someone must be responsible for replacing toilet paper and hand sanitizer. Again, composting toilets sound really cool, but who will maintain them? Some serious study and thought needs to go into this before anything happens.

Mike Fox

  • Museum Member
  • Superintendent
  • ********
  • Posts: 4,684
    • View Profile
Re: Event Pavilion for Alna Center - Official Reassembly Thread
« Reply #117 on: December 20, 2019, 06:28:12 PM »
Definately some good points Wayne.

As Ed said, I have been brain storming and presented a thought to him a couple of weeks ago. Just one of several ideas. But I want to research it more before I get too excited about it. This is all way down the tracks..

But yes, for now an immediate solution would be a generator. I would like it behind a short wall to help cut the sound down.
Mike
Doing way too much to list...

Bob Holmes

  • Museum Member
  • Engineer
  • ****
  • Posts: 526
    • View Profile
Re: Event Pavilion for Alna Center - Official Reassembly Thread
« Reply #118 on: December 20, 2019, 08:42:00 PM »
Mike, as to skylights on both sides of the pavilion, that would probably be minimal cost for more long-term inside light.  Just a thought.

Bob

Graham Buxton

  • Museum Member
  • Brakeman
  • ***
  • Posts: 163
    • View Profile
Re: Event Pavilion for Alna Center - Official Reassembly Thread
« Reply #119 on: December 21, 2019, 01:00:27 PM »
I'd like to suggest that consideration be given to using LED SMD Strip lights for lighting the Pavilion.  Here is a an example product:
https://smile.amazon.com/Flexible-Waterproof-Holiday-Outdoor-Decoration/dp/B075R4X1XL/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=led+strip+light+5050+white&qid=1576944043&sr=8-1
(I'm just using that product listing as an example. I generally buy my LEDs strips from a China Ebay vendor at about 50%-60% of the Amazon price.  One just has to wait longer for delivery)

These are a 5 meter (16.4 ft) strip of individual LEDs mounted to a flexible carrier strip.  They are available in both 12 volt DC and 24 volt DC.  I am using the 24 volt version as "closet" lamps in my house, and also as general lighting in my shop/barn. I came across them initially as a solution to the National Electrical Code restrictions/specifications on closet lighting fixtures (Code requirements are tighter for closets as flammable fabrics are more likely to be in close proximity to light fixtures in closets). Since then I like them enough that I am using them in my shop as replacements for florescent fixtures when the ballast fails.

In terms of the Pavilion, if the decision is made to use solar panels & battery to provide lighting, the 12 volt LED strips would work well. Since they are natively 12 volt DC, no inverter would be needed provide 120VAC from the batteries - just run the LED strips directly off the battery.

If a generator is used, some generators can directly output 12VDC, so that would be an easy setup.   But alternatively, like in my shop and house, 12VDC or 24VDC power supplies (converting from 120VAC) are very suitable.

The LED strips have somewhat of an advantage over LED in a conventional "bulb" form in that while heat is still generated by each LED, the heat is spread out over the full 5 meters of the strip.   One problem that "bulb" type LEDs have is heat dispersion. If the bulb gets too hot - it dies.  Strips do not have that problem.

These strips come with a sticky back foam on the backside, and that mounting system has worked well in my house. In my closets all the strips are mounted on the walls (rather than the closet ceiling) and none of them has come loose in  the 4 years since installation.  However, in my barn the strips were initially stuck to the underside of [dead] flourescent fixtures, and the sticky foam mounts are not reliable in that orientation.  My later iterations are to apply the strips to a 1x2 or 1x3 board using a "hot glue gun" then mount the boards to the ceiling, and that is easily done and the strips stay "glued" well.

Since the strips are 5 meters long, it would be convenient to have 5 meter boards to apply the strips to, but 5 meter 1x2s or 1x3 or 1x4s are in short supply in my area.   A reasonable alternative is to use 1x2x8' boards and just cut off the excess LED strip. The strips are cuttable every 6 LEDs in the 24 volt version and every 3 LEDs in the 12 volt version. That is why you see two parallel strips in my photos below - I just make the strip length suit the board I am using.


A couple of photos (these are "thumbnails", so click image to see larger):

A photo of 'lit' dual strips in my recent barn side shed expansion.


A closeup showing the LEDS and a couple of 'clear' retainers held in place with screws. (There are also some bigger screws visible mounting the LED board to the ceiling.)

Where I am, carpenter bees are an issue with any exposed wood, so everything, even treated lumber gets a coat of paint to deter the carpenter bees. Since the Pavilion trusses are not painted, and did not appear to be targeted by carpenter bees (maybe not an issue in Maine?) it seems to me that the [unpainted] 1x2 LED boards could be mounted directly to the underside of the trusses (oriented parallel to the trusses).  The LED strips are very unobtrusive when not lit.

Update: I recently found that "double" strips are available.  This is two rows of LEDs mounted on a common strip.  I have switched to buying these as they are faster to install for a given amount of light.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2020, 01:39:08 PM by Graham Buxton »
Graham