Author Topic: What If? Design Project: 1925-1940 2ft Diesel  (Read 20977 times)

Robert Hale

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Re: What If? Design Project: 1925-1940 2ft Diesel
« Reply #60 on: June 06, 2019, 01:36:02 PM »
I'll clarify why I thought up this idea for the line in the first place. I want to help out the best I can from a distance, and I saw a need for a locomotive (diesel) for the railroad as an "insurance" policy for the line. Thus the "what if" title. You know if the WW&F continued operations into the late 30s' and into the 40's they might have looked into a diesel locomotive to offset operating downtime, or for a more reliable locomotive with reduced operating costs (fuel, labor ect). This is a plausible path that might have been gone down if the line had survived.
Fast forward to today, and I am always awe struck on how authentic the line really is, down to the details of clothing and others things to roll back the hands of time for visitors. On the other hand the museum needs to be able to function so having a large diesel locomotive that can handle MOW trains, plow duty, and as emergency standby (rescue) if needed is a good idea IMO. I can save wear and tear on the current steam locomotives, but does not prohibit the use of steam for certain occasions like a planned "plow/flanger" special or other operations. I thought that designing a locomotive from scratch would be interesting, but really is a challenge. If a suitable locomotive like the one shown here could be bought and brought in and modified, then that might be a better way. As always though it is what the museum wants to do and what the board votes on that will be the path forward. I can only make suggestions based on my limited experience.

Rob 

Mike the Choochoo Nix

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Re: What If? Design Project: 1925-1940 2ft Diesel
« Reply #61 on: June 06, 2019, 02:42:52 PM »
I like the look of the TU4, it looks like a American design. If the museum were to decide to purchase one, I think that a representative of the museum would have to inspect any locomotive before purchase to check the condition of the wheels, trucks and frame to insure that it could be rebuilt at a reasonable cost.  As far as remotoring a small locomotive, there are standards for the bellhouseing where the transmission connects. What the metric standards are, and what motor to use is something that should be looked at before a purchase. I know this is all a few years down the road, but it is an interesting idea to pursue.
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Dag Bonnedal

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Re: What If? Design Project: 1925-1940 2ft Diesel
« Reply #62 on: June 06, 2019, 08:31:35 PM »
As I said, I was manager for this project and worked very hard with it for two full years.
I don't want to tell anyone what or how they should do, but in best case, I can contribute with a different view.
I have hundreds of drawings on these locos, but right now I don't know how to show them, any suggestion?
I had Photobucket earlier, but not any more...
I tried this on a Swedish site for forum pictures, but they "adapt the pictures for best viewing experience". Which literally means that I can't show detailed drawings this way. I have uploaded them in much higher resolution than what is shown.

Our choice of the TU4 instead of the more modern variants was based on its definitely much better classic look and furthermore the width over the frame is only 2080 mm (82"), which fits precisely in our profile. But the cab had to be rebuilt (original design of the type was with this more narrow cab).
The drawback of this type is that the design is 60 years old. It is centred around a gearbox with torque converter, two mechanical gears with separate electro-hydraulic clutches, reverser and transfer gearbox. All in one two ton massive unit. Specially the TU6 has a much more compact reverser/transfer box separated from the gear box.

As all Russian designs it is built for very rugged service from the desserts of central Asia to the arctic winters in Siberia. But it is a bit "rough". Not a sewing machine precisely.

As I mentioned the true core of these locos is the design of the trucks. They are extremely simple and well functioning. As you may see the frame is made up by two rugged beams with square cross section (made from two U-profiles), placed right over the axle boxes. The only suspension is the coil springs between the axle boxes and the truck frame. The loco frame rests directly on the four low friction pads seen in the top view. The pads run in oil baths. The king pin takes no vertical load. This means that at low speed there are no centring forces on the truck, it is free to rotate according to a less than well maintained track.
At higher speed, on the other hand the trucks have enough friction so they won't move. This would give rise to unacceptably high flange and track forces. If it was not fitted with the ingenious Meste axle box. The axles are free to move axially in the boxes and are centred by coil springs at the ends. The movements take up all small track irregularities at speed.
The loco literally floats along the track like a modern tourist coach with air suspension. There is the potential risk of instability with coil springs only, thus the trucks are designed to have shock absorbers. But those are not needed and have never been used anywhere.





This is what I managed to upload on our loco:


We had a never used Scania 9.5 litre, six cylinder in-line, turbocharge diesel with 200 hp donated to the project by the maker.
(We have about 10 coaches and freight cars built by them on our railroad.)
« Last Edit: June 06, 2019, 08:39:01 PM by Dag Bonnedal »

John Kokas

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Re: What If? Design Project: 1925-1940 2ft Diesel
« Reply #63 on: June 06, 2019, 11:20:13 PM »
Dag, I would suggest if Jason has not contacted you privately yet (he's really really busy), that you PM him and set up a method to review and have a technical conversation about the issues with a TU4 conversion.  I could foresee a need to download all your technical drawings for use since it would not make sense to create them a second time.  Maybe a trip to Sweden may be the offing for me,  I know if I did my wife and daughter would insist on coming as my daughter graduated from Jönköping University and loved it there.
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Stephen Piwowarski

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Re: What If? Design Project: 1925-1940 2ft Diesel
« Reply #64 on: June 07, 2019, 02:00:52 AM »
Look! Those trucks are already vacuum brake equipped- and the pots look similar to the Eames pots on No. 9 :)
Now, to temper my interest (and excitment), I really feel that there is some potential here. I'm certainly interested in learning more!
« Last Edit: June 07, 2019, 02:07:47 AM by Stephen Piwowarski »

John Kokas

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Re: What If? Design Project: 1925-1940 2ft Diesel
« Reply #65 on: June 07, 2019, 02:13:50 AM »
Stephen,

You noticed too!  Not to mention that the shaft drives and planetary gear are very similar to Budd RDC's.  :D
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Dag Bonnedal

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Re: What If? Design Project: 1925-1940 2ft Diesel
« Reply #66 on: June 07, 2019, 06:51:42 AM »
Actually not vacuum brake. The whole brake system was and is built with highway truck components, but we redesigned it as it was one circuit only. Brake in one hose or connection would lead to total loss of the brakes!
I designed the new system along the same principles as the Swedish State railways 1700 hp GM diesel T44. (Built in the 60ties by Swedish Nohab with GM components.) But the air brake circuits were built with truck components. Thus the pots are also standard truck units, one for each wheel. Cheap, reliable and readily available. Also the throttle wheel was inspired from the T44.
http://www.jarnvag.net/lokguide/t44
Using proven concepts, design and components was also a necessity to get the project approved by the Swedish Transport Agency.
I can't say if it is possible to squeeze vacuum equipment.
The gear box is built with straight gears, no planetary gears.

Dag Bonnedal

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Re: What If? Design Project: 1925-1940 2ft Diesel
« Reply #67 on: June 07, 2019, 07:11:37 AM »
Dag, I would suggest if Jason has not contacted you privately yet (he's really really busy), that you PM him and set up a method to review and have a technical conversation about the issues with a TU4 conversion.  I could foresee a need to download all your technical drawings for use since it would not make sense to create them a second time.  Maybe a trip to Sweden may be the offing for me,  I know if I did my wife and daughter would insist on coming as my daughter graduated from Jönköping University and loved it there.

John, I'll do, and you are more than welcome here. We would provide good opportunities to test drive the loco.
Dag

John Kokas

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Re: What If? Design Project: 1925-1940 2ft Diesel
« Reply #68 on: June 07, 2019, 11:05:31 PM »
Thanks Dag,  I think if a trip is set-up there will be a few who will want to tag-along.  Names will not be mentioned to protect guilty...... :o
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Stephen Greif

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Re: What If? Design Project: 1925-1940 2ft Diesel
« Reply #69 on: October 08, 2019, 02:23:28 AM »
Here is a interesting locomotive that has come up for sale on sterling rail, http://sterlingrail.com/classifieds/classified.php?id=23725 long ways away and quite expensive but fun to think about. 

Bill Piche

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Re: What If? Design Project: 1925-1940 2ft Diesel
« Reply #70 on: October 08, 2019, 04:24:58 PM »
Here is a interesting locomotive that has come up for sale on sterling rail, http://sterlingrail.com/classifieds/classified.php?id=23725 long ways away and quite expensive but fun to think about.

It's also the size (loading gauge wise) of a Garrett. Very large. I think that's been brought up here before. I know it has in personal conversations with some people.
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James Patten

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Re: What If? Design Project: 1925-1940 2ft Diesel
« Reply #71 on: October 08, 2019, 06:30:16 PM »
That size of an engine is, I think, far too large for our needs, or the needs of any of the Maine 2 footers.

Mike Fox

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Re: What If? Design Project: 1925-1940 2ft Diesel
« Reply #72 on: October 08, 2019, 06:47:44 PM »
That size of an engine is, I think, far too large for our needs, or the needs of any of the Maine 2 footers.

You saw the price tag, didn't you Mr. Treasurer...😀
Mike
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Wayne Laepple

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Re: What If? Design Project: 1925-1940 2ft Diesel
« Reply #73 on: October 08, 2019, 06:57:15 PM »
Weighs 90 tons, too.

Benjamin Richards

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Re: What If? Design Project: 1925-1940 2ft Diesel
« Reply #74 on: October 09, 2019, 05:27:49 PM »
Weighs 90 tons, too.

Where'd you get that figure? Everything I can find shows 48,000 kg or 53 short tons. That's a little more than double the axle loading of #9, but not ridiculous, esp. considering the 65-lb rail currently employed. Also no hammer blow to contend with.

The most striking observation is the obtuseness of a relatively powerful diesel-electric drive system in such a slim gauge, and the resulting enormity of the trucks. The traction motors sticking out asymmetrically from under those huge, high-arched sideframes are a disgrace, visually.

The loading gauge is also rather large, as Bill noted.