Author Topic: What If? Design Project: 1925-1940 2ft Diesel  (Read 23715 times)

Dag Bonnedal

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Re: What If? Design Project: 1925-1940 2ft Diesel
« Reply #45 on: June 05, 2019, 09:24:56 AM »
A lot of wise things already said; you will certainly need a "road" diesel in the long run (historic or not), hydraulic with pump/motor (hydrostatic as we call it) is not a way forward, rebuilding proven technology is probably better than scratch building, diesel electric is difficult in this gauge.

Just to give a slightly different perspective. We had the same need when we lengthened our line from 2 to 7 miles 10 years ago.
We bought a Russian built narrow gauge diesel from Ukraine and had it regauged, re-engined and rebuilt in Estonia (No. 21 Gaivoron).
https://www.oslj.nu/sv-SE/fordon/motorlok-41307609
Sister locos have also been bought to Finland and Norway, and two more powerful TU7 to Breacon Mountain RR in Wales.

This Russian standard diesel type TU4 for 750 mm (29.5") was the original design for well over 11 000 (!) locos built so far and still being built.
It is a shaft driven diesel hydraulic (torque converter) and most of all, the trucks are of a very simple but yet of a beautiful and extremely well functioning design. They are designed to run equally well over logging railroads where the rails have been nailed to logs placed directly on the untouched ground as well over more than 100 miles long roads in 30 mph (with sleeper and restaurant cars!).

The different variants have been built with weight and power spanning from 15 tons 120 hp to 26 tons 400 hp with the same trucks.
A few of the variants:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TU4_diesel_locomotive
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TU6_diesel_locomotive
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TU7_diesel_locomotive
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TU8_diesel_locomotive

We had to narrow down the cab only and took the opportunity to design it with one driving position in each direction. Our volunteers love the loco (although it has had a few teething troubles in the parts that were not rebuilt) and our passengers accept it as a "real" loco when the fire hazard is too great to run steam.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2019, 09:31:00 AM by Dag Bonnedal »

Mike Fox

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Re: What If? Design Project: 1925-1940 2ft Diesel
« Reply #46 on: June 05, 2019, 10:28:41 AM »
That 21 is a sharp looking locomotive.
Mike
Doing way too much to list...

John Kokas

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Re: What If? Design Project: 1925-1940 2ft Diesel
« Reply #47 on: June 05, 2019, 11:06:54 AM »
I have to agree with Mike - your #21 is a sharp looking diesel.  Dag, if possible, how much did it cost to purchase, ship, and rebuild that unit?  Thanks for bringing this item to light.
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John Scott

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Re: What If? Design Project: 1925-1940 2ft Diesel
« Reply #48 on: June 05, 2019, 12:21:02 PM »
It is always the same: history repeats itself, even on heritage railroads. Sadly, the lure of the diesel is irresistible.

Dag Bonnedal

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Re: What If? Design Project: 1925-1940 2ft Diesel
« Reply #49 on: June 05, 2019, 04:33:30 PM »
Lure or not...
The real question is weather you close down traffic all together or run it some days with diesel. We are definitely a steam railroad. Last summer we had extremely dry and hot weather in Sweden for a period of about 10 weeks. All steam trains in the whole of Sweden was totally shut down due to the fire hazard. Except on our line, we ran steam every day! Until early July we ran steam only, but then we concentrated the steam service to the shorter, less taxing and more frequented (by our passengers) section between Mariefred and Läggesta.
To continue to run steam on the longer section to Taxinge was out of the question, long sections with no road access and fairly large forests along the line made the risk too high.
Still, some people called the fire brigade when they saw the smoke from our locos, and could not understand how we dared to continue to run steam. But we have always had a good cooperation with the local fire brigade, even in the earlier occasions when we have had line-side fires. We had no incidents last year.
With big wildfires raging in central Sweden our passengers were more than understanding if they had to travel behind (a too modern) diesel on part of the journey.

I started to push for an investment in a new diesel 25 years ago, but it was not until we started to build the new line that our members full saw the urgent need. Thus we were a bit in a rush, and had not the capacity to do the rebuild ourselves. Thus the loco did cost a total of 100' $, this was all financed by a group of our active members (including myself).
Other locos from eastern Europe have been cheaper, any price level down to 5' $, depending on what you buy and if anything should be done to it.
I was project manager for this project, thus I have collected a lot of information on these locos (without knowing any Russian).

John McNamara

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Re: What If? Design Project: 1925-1940 2ft Diesel
« Reply #50 on: June 05, 2019, 05:10:27 PM »
Thus the loco did cost a total of 100' $, this was all financed by a group of our active members (including myself).
Other locos from eastern Europe have been cheaper, any price level down to 5' $, depending on what you buy and if anything should be done to it.
I presume that in US nomenclature 100'$ would be $100,000 and 5' $ would be $5,000?
Thanks!

Benjamin Richards

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Re: What If? Design Project: 1925-1940 2ft Diesel
« Reply #51 on: June 05, 2019, 06:00:32 PM »
It is always the same: history repeats itself, even on heritage railroads. Sadly, the lure of the diesel is irresistible.

I find the statement true, but the moroseness seems a little mis-guided. Although today's WW&F exists to duplicate the form and function of the original as closely as possible (and so far has, to a very high degree), almost everything about the world has changed in the intervening century or so. Financial considerations, regulations, and even the nature of the labor force are all unrecognizable when compared to the first quarter of the 20th century. Consequently, the WW&F has to identify which aspects of "historical correctness" are the most important to pursue, and make compromises in other areas that support those most important aspects.

A recent relevant example is the D&SNG's purchase of two diesels for use when the fire risk is too high to use coal-burning locomotives. They are also (finished?) converting 493 to burn oil for a similar reason. "The new era is not necessarily of D&SNG’s choosing, but the 416 Fire brought home the precarious nature of sending coal-burning trains...in a forest that is increasingly battling ever-longer droughts."

I'm not suggesting that risk of fire would be the primary motivation for a WW&F road diesel; only that in a general sense, blind adherence to a strict dogma inevitably ends in failure. Moreover, I believe the WW&F leadership clearly understands the balance that must be maintained.

Dag Bonnedal

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Re: What If? Design Project: 1925-1940 2ft Diesel
« Reply #52 on: June 05, 2019, 07:04:42 PM »


I presume that in US nomenclature 100'$ would be $100,000 and 5' $ would be $5,000?
Thanks!


John,
Sorry for being unclear, that is correct.

Robert Hale

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Re: What If? Design Project: 1925-1940 2ft Diesel
« Reply #53 on: June 05, 2019, 10:40:36 PM »
A lot of wise things already said; you will certainly need a "road" diesel in the long run (historic or not), hydraulic with pump/motor (hydrostatic as we call it) is not a way forward, rebuilding proven technology is probably better than scratch building, diesel electric is difficult in this gauge.

Just to give a slightly different perspective. We had the same need when we lengthened our line from 2 to 7 miles 10 years ago.
We bought a Russian built narrow gauge diesel from Ukraine and had it regauged, re-engined and rebuilt in Estonia (No. 21 Gaivoron).
https://www.oslj.nu/sv-SE/fordon/motorlok-41307609
Sister locos have also been bought to Finland and Norway, and two more powerful TU7 to Breacon Mountain RR in Wales.

This Russian standard diesel type TU4 for 750 mm (29.5") was the original design for well over 11 000 (!) locos built so far and still being built.
It is a shaft driven diesel hydraulic (torque converter) and most of all, the trucks are of a very simple but yet of a beautiful and extremely well functioning design. They are designed to run equally well over logging railroads where the rails have been nailed to logs placed directly on the untouched ground as well over more than 100 miles long roads in 30 mph (with sleeper and restaurant cars!).

The different variants have been built with weight and power spanning from 15 tons 120 hp to 26 tons 400 hp with the same trucks.
A few of the variants:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TU4_diesel_locomotive
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TU6_diesel_locomotive
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TU7_diesel_locomotive
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TU8_diesel_locomotive

We had to narrow down the cab only and took the opportunity to design it with one driving position in each direction. Our volunteers love the loco (although it has had a few teething troubles in the parts that were not rebuilt) and our passengers accept it as a "real" loco when the fire hazard is too great to run steam.

Can you share some photos or drawings of the running gear?

John Kokas

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Re: What If? Design Project: 1925-1940 2ft Diesel
« Reply #54 on: June 05, 2019, 10:45:26 PM »
The frames on those trucks remind me of the old Erie Stillwell passenger cars.  Not the best riding but you could beat them to death and they still would roll.
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Wayne Laepple

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Re: What If? Design Project: 1925-1940 2ft Diesel
« Reply #55 on: June 05, 2019, 10:50:42 PM »
Can you even begin to imagine the miles and miles of red tape that would be wrapped around a locomotive built in a communist state being imported into this country?

John Kokas

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Re: What If? Design Project: 1925-1940 2ft Diesel
« Reply #56 on: June 05, 2019, 11:13:56 PM »
Not if it comes through any country but Russia or Belarus.  All the former Eastern European Soviet block countries are either part of the European Union or pending membership in NATO.  Not considered hostile countries anymore - as Dag said, these units were shipped all over.
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Robert Hale

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Re: What If? Design Project: 1925-1940 2ft Diesel
« Reply #57 on: June 06, 2019, 09:03:33 AM »
Can you even begin to imagine the miles and miles of red tape that would be wrapped around a locomotive built in a communist state being imported into this country?

What about all the stuff that comes from China? They are a communist state still today. My guess is that if you were to import a locomotive like that to the states it will most likely be easier to do than importing a car from Japan. And it might actually fit in a container too.

Rob

James Patten

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Re: What If? Design Project: 1925-1940 2ft Diesel
« Reply #58 on: June 06, 2019, 10:01:52 AM »
We routinely get emails from companies inside former Soviet states offering TU7 locomotives.  They generally get caught by the spam filter, but perhaps I should start forwarding them to Jason?  ;D

John Kokas

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Re: What If? Design Project: 1925-1940 2ft Diesel
« Reply #59 on: June 06, 2019, 11:00:11 AM »
I think the best way to address this, (and the cheapest), is to find a couple of salvage TU4 type engines that are in a "dead line" somewhere and ship them to Alna.  Then our own shop crew can decide what engine/trans/hyd pump combo and braking system they would want to use.
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