Author Topic: Engine Air Compressor Lubricators  (Read 16457 times)

James Patten

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Re: Engine Air Compressor Lubricators
« Reply #15 on: October 19, 2008, 11:47:13 PM »
The big problem with fitting our locomotives with air brakes, as I see it, is the air compressor would use a substantial amount of steam, and, with our tiny boilers, well, you can see the potential problem.

For sake of argument (I'm not saying we can or should do it), I noticed on the Talyllyn Railway in Wales that each of the steam engines had small air compressors added to them.  The engines themselves are quite tiny, maybe 2/3rds the size of #10, and they had equally tiny air compressors on them.  To be fair, they have a maximum train size due to passing sidings and hauling ability of the engines, plus their cars are no where near the size of ours (so less weight to stop).

Finally, not to dispute James, but I believe no. 10 probably had a steam jam brake when built. Even in the flat cane fields of Louisiana, there is sometimes a need to stop at a specific location. 

My statement stemmed from the lack of anything that looked brake-like in #10's erection picture, which was published in a previous newsletter from several years ago, and is sitting framed on my coffee table in the living room. 

Keith Taylor

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Re: Engine Air Compressor Lubricators
« Reply #16 on: October 20, 2008, 01:37:20 PM »
In my copy of "Down Among the Sugar Cane" there are pictures of our No. 10 in its previous guise, and there is no sign of brakes on the drivers. In fact, many of the locomotives in the sugar cane fields appear to have no brakes. The land was flat, there were no grades to contend with, so merely reversing the valve gear and using the pistons as a compressor, was enough to slow and stop the train.
If that wasn't enough, you could open the throttle a tad while in reverse, and you will stop!
Keith

John Kokas

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Re: Engine Air Compressor Lubricators
« Reply #17 on: October 22, 2008, 12:11:37 AM »
Per some of the previous discussion, there are in fact steam compressors that are available "new" from china.  If my memory is correct the smallest I saw was a 4" dia. single stage that was just a miniature of standard Westinghouse single stage 8".  This would be ideal for the size equipment WWF has.  Also remember that with the reduced size of train in tow, the air requirements are all a percentage smaller (e.g. - smaller resevoirs, piping, etc.) and also limited train length makes it quite doable.  A 6ET brake stand would probably be perfect for our use.  I just wish I still had one - sold a complete unit to Mt. Rainier Scenic about 3 years ago.
Lastly, e-mail from a friend in D.C. just the other day.  Get ready for Plan "B" - it looks like non-network rail will be coming under jurisdiction as early as next year.   
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Stephen Hussar

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Re: Engine Air Compressor Lubricators
« Reply #18 on: October 22, 2008, 12:24:29 AM »
John, I'm assuming you mean these. I've seen these before and wondered...they look so much like a Westinghouse...are they? Just rebuilt...or are they copies... interesting in any case.http://www.multipowerinternational.com/aircomp.html



And how about a nice new injector?!


« Last Edit: October 22, 2008, 12:27:50 AM by Stephen Hussar »

John Kokas

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Re: Engine Air Compressor Lubricators
« Reply #19 on: October 22, 2008, 01:08:10 PM »
Steve,

good eye - they are in fact "new" but copies of stuff that has been around for years.  mostly copied from USRA loco's and equipment that were sent to china back during WWII.  All the chinese did was convert English measurements to closest metric equivalents.  we can get almost all the "stuff" we need from china to include brake stands.  someone else mentioned that the SY/QJ models now in the U.S. are in fact 6ET brake systems.
Moxie Bootlegger

Keith Taylor

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Re: Engine Air Compressor Lubricators
« Reply #20 on: October 22, 2008, 03:05:28 PM »
John, On a bit of a humorous note, if you put a No. 6 brake in the cab of No. 10, you wouldn't have room for one small item...the engineer!
 Also, a 6 ET would not be required, as ET stands for Engine and Tender, and our Forneys don't have seperate tenders. A 6 BL might be a better choice. However.... I believe the FRA doesn't require air brakes on equipment that is not used in interchange service. Things like scale test cars have no brakes at all. I don't think they even have a requirement to have brakes at all! However, the Power Boiler Act of 1919 (Federal Law) does state that if a locomotive is equipped with an appliance, it must be in working order and cut in. Just as some railroads choose to not equip their locomotives with a safety control pedal (deadman) the law states that if it is so equipped, it must be in working condition and cut in and working.
Keith

Ira Schreiber

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Re: Engine Air Compressor Lubricators
« Reply #21 on: October 22, 2008, 04:48:09 PM »
Although air brakes are off topic, there in NOTHING in FRA regulations that mandates air/vacuum brakes for the WW&F.
If you take time to read the Federal regulations, which I have done, they state that if they have automatic brakes, they must be certified and operative.
Without getting into a long discussion, we don't need them, legally.
Allan Fisher, an expert on the subject, can expand on this topic if necessary, I'm sure.
Ira

Eric Bolton

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Re: Engine Air Compressor Lubricators
« Reply #22 on: October 22, 2008, 08:55:23 PM »

"Straight air brakes," in obsolete railroad usage, are essentially the reverse, in that a reduction in the train line pressure directly causes a brake application.  Both systems are "automatic" in that an emergency application results from any unintentional break in the trainline, such as the train uncoupling while in motion. 


I'm sorry but you are mistaken. In a strait air system the system is not a charged. The brakes are applied by introducing compressed air into the brake pipe by a air cock in the cab. To release the brakes the air is vented from this same cock. Springs then push the brake shoes away from the wheels. There for when there is a break in the brake pipe you end up with a total loss of brakes other then hand brakes.

   An Automatic Air Brake System uses a series of reservoirs and control valves to operate the brakes. The Automatic Brake Valve on the locomotive has direct control over the locomotives Equalizing Reservoir. A reduction in pressure in this reservoir is relayed to the Brake Pipe by the Relay Valve on the locomotive. The now higher Brake Pipe pressure pushes a diaphragm inside the Relay Valve that allows the Brake Pipe pressure to escape which in turn reduces the Brake Pipe pressure. Once the Brake Pipe pressure reduces to the Equalizing Reservoir pressure the diaphragm closes. This reduction in Brake Pipe pressure is read by the Control Valves on the cars. The drop in pressure causes the Control Valve to move to the "service" position. This happens because of the difference in pressure between the Brake Pipe and the cars Auxiliary Reservoir. The Auxiliary Reservoir pressure is vented to the Brake Cylinder until the Auxiliary Reservoir reaches the same pressure as the Brake Pipe. To release the brakes the Automatic Brake Valve is placed in release. This allows the Equalizing Reservoir to charge from the Main Reservoirs. The diaphragm in the Relay valve now moves to allow Main Reservoir pressure to charge the Brake Pipe. This change in pressure is again read by the Control Valve which now moves to the "charging" position due to the difference in pressure. This position vents the Brake Cylinder pressure to atmosphere and allows the Auxiliary Reservoir to charge and the brakes are returned by spring tension. The systems overall pressure is set by the Regulating Valve on the locomotive. Once the Equalizing Reservoir reaches the set pressure the Regulating Valve cuts it off from charging further. The Brake Pipe will not charge higher then the Equalizing Reservoir. Now an Emergency Application of the brakes is cause by a rapid reduction in Brake Pipe Pressure either by the Automatic Brake Valve or a break in the Brake Pipe. An Emergency Application only provides 20% more braking above a Full Service Application (32psi in a 110psi system and 27psi in a 90psi system). This causes the Brake Pipe, Equalizing and Auxiliary Reservoirs (on modern equipment your Emergency Res as well) to be vented to 0psi.

   The Independent Brake on a locomotive is an example of a "Strait air system." When the Idependent Brake Valve is moved to a service position it sends Main Reservoir air to a Relay Valve which then allows Main Reservoir air to go directly to the locomotive Brake Cylinder. When placed in release the Brake Cylinder pressure is vented to atmosphere at the Relay Valve.

  Glade I paid attention is class!

Eric Bolton,
Student Locomotive Engineer; New Jersey Transit
Steam Locomotive Fireman; New Hope & Ivyland Railroad



« Last Edit: October 22, 2008, 09:05:27 PM by Eric Bolton »
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Stewart "Start" Rhine

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Re: Engine Air Compressor Lubricators
« Reply #23 on: October 22, 2008, 11:18:27 PM »
When I worked for the Maryland Midland Railway wekept the standard 90lb brake pressure on our trains.  We used to have a couple of EMD F-7's from the CNW that didn't have dynamic braking.  We always did a 9lb reduction on the brake pipe to retard the train coming down the mountain from Blue Ridge Summit when these units were on the point.  We also had two former N&W GP-9's with dynamic braking.  They held the train back enough that we didn't need the brake pipe reduction.  Our system worked as Eric described.

Eric Bolton

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Re: Engine Air Compressor Lubricators
« Reply #24 on: October 23, 2008, 03:27:54 AM »
Yes your standard freight air system charges to 90psi. A passenger system charges to 110psi.
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John Kokas

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Re: Engine Air Compressor Lubricators
« Reply #25 on: October 25, 2008, 12:57:50 AM »
Keith, good call "my bad" - I got into the ET rut and forgot about the Forney application.  You are correct with the BL nomenclature. 

Ira - with all due respect, the news from D.C. (previous post) is not necessarily good.  There is a determined effort on-going for including all non-network rail into the FRA's jurisdiction.  We can all pray for the best that government will not get that big but I'd rather be ready with a plan "B" than to be caught with my pants down.
Moxie Bootlegger

Mike the Choochoo Nix

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Re: Engine Air Compressor Lubricators
« Reply #26 on: October 26, 2008, 01:02:12 AM »
  Get ready for Plan "B" - it looks like non-network rail will be coming under jurisdiction as early as next year.   

What is Non-network rail? Are they talking about Disney Land? They give steam train rides to the public! Steam and gas engine shows with a train? Private "museums" that have a once a year public train ride?
Tell us more. And just how is the WWF different than any of these?

Mike Nix
Mike Nix

John Kokas

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Re: Engine Air Compressor Lubricators
« Reply #27 on: October 28, 2008, 11:58:33 PM »
Mike,

basically yes to all of your questions, (paying fares). It is being done for "the public good", Washington-ese for bigger government  ;)

Enuf said..........
Moxie Bootlegger

Stephen Hussar

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Re: Engine Air Compressor Lubricators
« Reply #28 on: October 29, 2008, 01:11:50 PM »
The way I read it, it looks like they're studying whether less frequent inspections of (historic, museum, tourist, scenic) equipment is feasible and safe.