Author Topic: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread  (Read 223123 times)

Robert Hale

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Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
« Reply #90 on: August 30, 2010, 12:46:52 PM »
Where are the crankpin bosses? Is number 11 inside or outside framed? I forget...........

Stewart "Start" Rhine

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Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
« Reply #91 on: August 30, 2010, 01:07:19 PM »
Robert,  Since Engine 11 will built along the same lines as the original WW&F number 7 it will be an outside frame locomotive.

Stewart

Stephen Hussar

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Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
« Reply #92 on: August 30, 2010, 04:42:19 PM »
Since you brought them up ;D ...here's a shot of No 11's crankpins, which were expertly machined by Bruce Mowbray.


Robert Hale

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Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
« Reply #93 on: August 30, 2010, 05:00:25 PM »
Nice work. What type of steel was used for the pins?
Speaking of metals, will #9 and #11 use modern types of steel rather than historical types? I know cast iron is not a great metal to use anymore due to the fragile temperment it has. Ahhhh, educating myself on these topics is great mind excercise!!

Pete "Cosmo" Barrington

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Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
« Reply #94 on: August 30, 2010, 09:01:06 PM »
I beleive the crank pins were made from stock originally obtained for but not used for the axles on the wheelsets that ate now complete. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.
I agree with you that educating oneself about these things is a challenging yet worthwhile pursuit.
I also agree that the focus should be where it is, on completing #9 first. That said, I cannot help but feel renewed anxiousness for #9 to be completed every time I see new parts show up for #11. Once she's finished, that  is going to be one heckova' engine! ;D

Jason M Lamontagne

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Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
« Reply #95 on: August 30, 2010, 09:54:45 PM »
Material choice is a deep subject with no consise answer.  The broadest brush is that a variety of materials are required in a steam locomotive based on the specific purpose- from gray cast iron to cast steel, mild steel both cold and hot rolled, bronze, and plenty more.  A more indepth look shows that each of these "kinds" of material are generic descriptions at best- there are specific alloys and manufacture techniques for any of these metals.  Depending on the purpose of the component- we are either not concerned with the specifics (simply stating 'gray cast iron' is good enough for a bell bracket), or very concerned with the specifics (we are using AISI 4140 Hot-Rolled Annealed for axles and crank pins).  Critical components not only get their material very carefully specified but a record of the material's manufacture, including its actual chemical makeup and record of mechanical testing done, is retained by us to be part of a final construction package (someday). 

Cast iron can be brittle and is far weaker in tension than in compression- for this reason it was never used for components subject to these stresses.  It is still the only logical choice for many components.  We have considered using ductile cast iron in place of cast steel for some components- with a monetary advantage but the disadvantage of not being weldable in case of a defect.  Jury's still out- we may do some this way but keep the critical pieces in steel. 

Generally speaking, we'd like No 11 to be built similar to the way it was done- using castings where castings were used, forgings where forgings were used.  Some restrictions will force us to bend on some of that- but we'll be as true as we can. 

Enough rambling...

Jason

Bernie Perch

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Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
« Reply #96 on: August 31, 2010, 06:47:40 AM »
Pete, who expressed concern about #11's parts slowing up #9's progress and others with the same opinion.

I, Wayne, and Bruce live down here in Pennsylvania and have little ability to physically work on #9 and most of her parts are made.  For myself, I have little desire to work on #9 either.  I like to make new parts and for most of my hobby life have been making foundry patterns for the organizations I have been involved with.  I have also found that people who work away from the base of operations and are working in their own shops are invisible most of the time (like myself) and are not appreciated by some of the people doing the every day grunt work.  This attitude caused me to leave an organization and running steam and I pray that it doesn't rear its ugly head at the WW&F.

As far as I can ascertain, the only physical work done on site to #11 was the machining of the wheel center, pressing on the axles and shrinking on the tires and this was done in conjunction with the railcar and took up little time from #9.

The rest of the work was probably done off site and this includes all the drawings, all of the bell work, the builders and number plates and finish, the leading wheel center pattern, the driver patterns and the axle and pins.  I don't think any of this in any way interferred with #9's progress.


If all this work wasn't done on #11, what would it be--just someone's distant dream which I hear other people ramble about on other forums about their dream locomotives?

Bernie

Pete "Cosmo" Barrington

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Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
« Reply #97 on: August 31, 2010, 07:42:07 PM »
Bernie,
I think you read me backwards. I am anxious (as everybody else) for #9 to get finished, but I also believe that #11 is just as important. Not just to the museum, but to the future of steam operations in the US, and perhaps elsewhere.
The products forged from your patterns are TOP NOTCH quality work and your dedication to them and the steam/RR community is beyond admirable.
My anxiousness is for us to hurry up and finish the work on #9 which is holding up #11!
I know that these things will all come in time, but in no way did I mean to infer that your work on #11 was in any way holding up necessary work on #9. I realize the major parts necessary for #9 are already on-site and, knowing how far CT is from Maine, I can understand why you continue your work in PA, even farther away from Maine.
That being said, it was a pleasure to have met you earlier this spring and to have seen the whistle casting that I had only previously seen in pictures.
Again, Bernie, your work is both important and outstanding.
Keep up the good work!
Pete

Bruce Mowbray

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Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
« Reply #98 on: September 10, 2010, 08:57:14 AM »
It's been a while since I posted here and here is a good place to get back into the swing now that summer is over.

 As Jason mentioned, the material used for the pins was chosen for it's characteristics. It just so happens that it's the same material used for axles. Also, it was about the same diameter for both parts. Originally, I was to make all of the the axles for #11. It was later decided to make the crank pins. So I just used the chosen material to make the crank pins instead.

Great work on the patterns Bernie. Am I sensing another circular "backshop" style BBQ in the spring?. Right now I am making parts for the big lathe at the WW&F shops so that future projects, like #11's wheelsets, will go smoother. I will be coming up this fall to get that machine back in running order. My buddy Ed G. and I plan to spend some time on the machine improving some of it's less than desirable traits.

 Removing 1/4 to 1/2" of material from parts as big as wheel centers is not a big deal. When not in mass production, it's better to have more than enough material to machine off rather than not enough. This eliminates some of the "we shoulda' left more meat on in that area" discussions. It's far easier to take material off than to add some on.

 As far as taking time away from the #9. Like someone said, it's easier to make parts from afar to engineered drawings for a new locomotive that will be built from scratch where known fits can be predetermined.  I live in PA and to travel to Maine for more than a couple of weekends a year is difficult for me. I have a desire to help the WW&F museum achieve it's goal by offering my machining experience. I can do that by making parts here in PA and bringing them up when I can or shipping them with someone who will be Maine bound. The #9 is up there in Maine and many of the parts are already there awaiting rehab. This rehab requires having the mating part(s) on hand to check for fit and operation along with decisions being made on whether to make new parts or reuse the old ones.

 Also, to have a big part of the #11 on hand is good incentive for some to keep the project moving forward. It shows that the museum is serious about building the #11. In the not for profit museum world, this is a good "seed" for getting the funding needed to keep the project moving forward. When benefactors and granters see their donations become something tangible, they feel good about donating again.

 Time to go off to the shop and make some chips.

Looking forward to my next visit.

Bruce Mowbray
Springville, PA
Bruce Mowbray
Springville, PA

Glenn Byron

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Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
« Reply #99 on: September 10, 2010, 01:10:18 PM »
Hi Bruce, I'm a vendor at the AACA Fall Meet in Hershey, Pa. and will be running a motor home from Maine to PA by way of I-84 to Scranton and then down I-81 on Oct. 5.  Then on Oct. 9 we run I-78 over to NJ for a quick visit on the way back to Maine.  My motorhome is equipped to haul a trailer with a Reese Hitch, and the large plug in for brakes. I can't find Springville, PA in my Atlas, but if I can help in any way, let me know by email:  glenns@tdstelme.net   Glenn  Byron, Smithfield, ME. (Belgrade Lakes area)  There are several other Maine old auto nuts who also make this annual pilgrimage for the holy days of Hershey,the largest car show in the world.  Anything that can save the museum a buck will help a little.

Bruce Mowbray

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Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
« Reply #100 on: September 12, 2010, 06:29:31 AM »
Glenn,
 Thanks for the offer. I may just take you up on it. I will be done with the parts for the bog lathe in the next day or so. If I find it may be a while before I can get up to Maine, I may have you bring the parts. My friend Ed may be visiting me sometime this fall, and I could send the parts with him. I may even get up there sometime this month. Either way, I'll keep you in mind.

Bruce
Bruce Mowbray
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Matthew Gustafson

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Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
« Reply #101 on: September 27, 2010, 04:29:56 PM »
Is #11's restoration going to kick into full swing after #9 is restored? Just wondering?  ???
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Jason M Lamontagne

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Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
« Reply #102 on: September 27, 2010, 07:31:10 PM »
We anticipate ramping the project up considerably after No 9 is complete- both with a lot more work at Sheepscot Station and with direct fundraising efforts.  The current effort is establishing the project as real and definite- so when we really start asking for money- we'll already be well ahead of a dream on paper.

As with all projects at the railroad- No 11 will fit in with other museum priorities- and won't 'bump' everything out of the way.  A direct effort will ensue, however.

Jason

Mike Fox

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Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
« Reply #103 on: September 27, 2010, 07:36:16 PM »
#11 isn't a restoration. It is the construction of an all new locomotive, pattened after the original WW&F #7. This was a 2-4-4T outside frame Baldwin, weighing 28 Tons. Slightly Smaller than B&SR 7 and 8.
Mike
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Stephen Hussar

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Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
« Reply #104 on: September 29, 2010, 08:23:10 AM »
All, here is the latest from Bernie's pattern shop...the email simply read, "ready for Maine" -I had to smile at the simplicity of the message -given how complex this pattern is, and how much work obviously went into it. Simply gorgeous, Bernie! Thank you!



« Last Edit: September 29, 2010, 09:38:22 AM by Stephen Hussar »