Author Topic: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread  (Read 202344 times)

Stephen Hussar

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Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
« Reply #225 on: March 13, 2013, 09:47:08 AM »
I've used "Bondo' in the past on patterns at the museum....specifically for coupler pocket and headlight castings. I'm sure it's been used on many other patterns too...

Stephen

Mike Fox

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Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
« Reply #226 on: March 13, 2013, 10:27:55 PM »
Alan,
  Thanks for the excellent explanation.

Bernie,
  Short term memory, and if I was to look back, probably the same question was asked then too. Perhaps even by me.

Excellent work by both of you guys. I can't wait to the these pieces come together.
Mike
Doing way too much to list...

Thor Windbergs

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Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread Suggestion of optional Pattern Making
« Reply #227 on: March 14, 2013, 07:01:02 PM »
Dear Narrow Minded Gentlemen,

I am pretty interested in building or repairing 2ft gauge locomotives using modern methods and one question I wanted to pose is if there are full drawings and or 3D Cad drawings why not considering having the patterns machined out of wood or plastic for the complex shapes which are much easier on CNC machines. Surely some shop out there in east of US would be willing to donate some time if a 3D CAD model is available in a standard DXF or STEP file format?

The next idea I wanted to through out is if patterns are really only need once for one locomotive then it is not necessary that the patterns are re-usable or that they survive to collect dust on the shelf...

During my 2 years of working for BMW in 6 Cylinder engine development in Munich I watched all the technology of the current engines out of aluminum or magnesium and the cores these days are all injection molded closed cell foam where several pieces of very complex passageways for all the water and oil cooling and these are put together like a 3D jig saw puzzle, automatically and robotized assembly naturally. And these cores are then packed in sand and the molten aluminum then melts the Styrofoam into a noxious gas during poring. Theoretically just like lost wax casting.

For patterns in the size that we narrow minded people are creating we can imagine starting with big blocks of foam and cutting with hot wire, saws, filing and sanding, will make a mess but requires low-tech tools and you can use fillers, paints and puddy to fill things and create sealed smooth surfaces which would be of great advantage for surface finish in steam passages for a free breathing locomotive...

So just throwing my thoughts out, hopefully it will encourage someone to experiment. I hope to visit the No.9 & No.11 in the next years, have to wait for my 2 year old son gets alittle older before flying the 8 hrs from Germany to Maine.
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Bernie Perch

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Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
« Reply #228 on: March 14, 2013, 09:10:11 PM »
Thor,

Even though I have and will make more wooden patterns in the traditional manner for #11, I can agree with you overall and if I were in charge of building a new locomotive, I would use the most modern methods available but I am not in charge of this #11 project.  Also most modern methods could mean more dollars.

The reason we are using the "Olde tyme" methods is that the powers to be wish to duplicate as many of the olde processes used when the original #7 (which we are duplicating) was built.  There will be notable exceptions such as a welded boiler and some flame (or similar process) cut parts.  I am encouraging them to use the "lost foam" process for the central frame section which would be a complicated wooden pattern.

Another reason we are using the wooden patterns is that the cost for the railroad is $0.  All the patterns that Alan and I have made have been paid for by us and donated to the cause.  There is a chance that when this project is started, others may want to build a locomotive and parts can be made by or for them with the patterns.  Way down the road, other locomotives may be built by the railroad when the traffic demands it.  This last statement may seem like dreaming, but who thought fifteen years ago that there would be the complex at Sheepscot that currently exists.

Getting back to what Thor stated, I will stick to the way they want it done at Sheepscot. If I were making #11, the tender truck wheel centers would be spoked like the lead truck with a tire (the pattern already exists and would get more use), it would have outside valve gear, and the cylinders among other things would be weldments.

I also agree that once a wooden pattern is used and finished, it is rarely used again except for grates or plates.  I am a part of Project CNJ 113 and the pile of patterns we used on the locomotive, both commercial and mine are rather carelessly stored in a trailer, exposed to hot, cold, and dampness, and in a few years they will be worthless.  We used "lost foam" patterns for the stack and base.

Bernie

Jason M Lamontagne

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Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
« Reply #229 on: March 15, 2013, 11:54:14 PM »
With the utmost respect for both the work that Bernie has done and his valuable opinion, my take on replicating WW&F 7 comes from a slightly different perspective.  I feel that it is extremely important to recognize that the original machine was a product if its time, and if not for the technology from which it came, it would not have looked like it did or exist at all.  By replicating such a machine, we are not only providing a tribute to that engine but to that era.

Now the counterpart to all that fluffy idealism is practicality; building it has to be within our means.  We have moved almost entirely to CAD drawing and, in some cases computer modeling, despite my early reluctance.  Some foam patterns are being considered.  Our goal is an end product which is both an accurate reconstruction of the original and is a respectable tribute to the technological era of 1907.

Regards
Jason
« Last Edit: March 16, 2013, 12:08:43 AM by Jason M Lamontagne »

Stewart "Start" Rhine

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Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
« Reply #230 on: March 16, 2013, 12:49:07 AM »
I think that replicating #7 is kind of along the same lines as the railroads' crank telephone system.  The phones and ringer boxes are all 1920's era while most of the wiring is new.  The visitor sees the historic instrument and how it works providing the experience of how railroads used phones in the 1920's.  The parts that are not seen such as feed cables and lightning protection are newer technology which provide safety and better operation for the crew.  The phone on the station wall is a nod to the folks who designed and installed such equipment 80-90 years ago and how it helped railroads operate more efficiently.  Jason makes a good point, building #11 is a wonderful project which will open yet another window on the past for our guests. 

Stephen Hussar

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Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
« Reply #231 on: March 17, 2013, 12:37:09 AM »
"Lost styrofoam" smokestack patterns from CNJ 113. It's super interesting to see this stuff, thanks, Bernie!


Bernie Perch

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Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
« Reply #232 on: March 17, 2013, 01:05:41 AM »
Stephen,

Again thanx, many times over for posting my photos.

I have been wanting these photos to be posted for quite a while, but was waiting for the proper time and Thor's post had me dig them out.  These patterns were made by the Behler Pattern Works in Deer Lake, PA.  They also made several complicated wooden patterns that were beyond my means and especially, time.  The worn out and broken stack and base were taken to the works and they made the patterns directly from the originals without drawings.  I am used to heavy wooden patterns and when we visited the pattern works, I went to pick up what my subconscious mind was saying 50+ pounds of pattern.  The problem was that this "huge" pattern weighed about two pounds and I almost threw it off the table.  There is no doubt in my mind that this is the way to go with "one-offs"  Behler took the patterns to the foundry and worked with them so that the casting process went well.  I have no idea what the whole process cost, but it was well worth it.

Bernie

Thor Windbergs

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Hey guy check on this thread from the Facebook of the "Lyon". The boiler work and casting of the Smokebox door is amazing.

http://www.facebook.com/pages/V-T-Lyon/269396092936?id=269396092936&sk=photos_stream

cheers
Thor
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Keith Taylor

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Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
« Reply #234 on: March 17, 2013, 01:35:37 PM »
Stephen,

Again thanx, many times over for posting my photos.

Bernie
Hi Bernie, how did the surface finish come on the lost foam castings? I would think it would be very close to a lost wax process and so give a fine grained surface. What I am curious about is how they ram up the molds. I wouldn't think they could use a hydraulic ram as that amount of pressure would crush the foam.
Keith
« Last Edit: March 17, 2013, 08:27:25 PM by Keith Taylor »

Steve Smith

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Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
« Reply #235 on: March 17, 2013, 08:11:53 PM »
I was wondering about that also, Keith. I never thought to ask Jason about that, in connection with the first pattern for the frame transition casting. I'm pretty sure he told me the pattern for the first casting--now Ichabod crane car counterweight--was foam. I wonder if there's maybe some sort of vibratory process used to compact sand that doesn't rely as much on pressure.

Jason M Lamontagne

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Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
« Reply #236 on: March 17, 2013, 10:23:16 PM »
I believe they use the chemical-set sand.  It is vibrated into to mold and self sets in several hours.  Enterprise Foundry in Lewiston does this; that's where I learned about it. 

No 9's first frame casting was lost foam.  The pattern, made by the foundry, cost more than the casting; total cost around $5000.  I wasn't pleased with porosity in places, but what condemned it was dimensional in nature... It never made it to the radiograph we were requiring, so we don't know how extensive that porosity really was.  We didn't pay anything for that casting. 

The one we're using cost around $6k.  It was also a foam pattern, but not lost foam.  It was made, packed and withdrawn like a wood pattern.  It appears that this foundry did not use self-setting sand because the corners are not crisp but rather rounded over and beaten looking. 

See ya
Jason

Bernie Perch

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Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
« Reply #237 on: March 18, 2013, 12:12:16 AM »
In my above post I mentioned that a representative from Behler took the pattern to the foundry and oversaw how it was placed in the sand.  I have no idea concerning the process.  I talked to Bob Kimmel about the costs and these are 10 years ago prices.  The patterns cost a little over $5,000.  The rough castings were about $600 and machining the castings was about $1500.  The castings were not perfectly smooth and I don't think they were checked for porosity because they are not in a high stress area.  The metal was a special alloy mix to tolerate the heat in this area.

Bernie.

Rick Sisson

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Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
« Reply #238 on: April 05, 2013, 12:31:32 AM »
I've been learning how to model number 11's cylinder/saddle casting in TurboCad using the detailed drawings developed by Jason. First, I modeled the cores:


The cores are: red - exhaust, green - live steam, light blue (and underneath dark blue) - main lightener, tan - frameway, brown - cylinder bore, dark blue steam port, darker green - outer lightener. My model represents only one quadrant of the complete assembly - the left and right cylinders are identical and formed from the same molds; the individual castings are symetric fore and aft, so only one half is modeled.
Then I encapsulated the cores with the casting outer shell:


I then subtracted the cores from the outer shell to represent the final casting with voids where the cores had been, and then I split the casting into 5 pieces so I could inspect the inside of the casting at various points, as you can see in the picture. You can not see the interior details unless the casting is opened up.
Finally, I sent the CAD file to a 3D printing company called Shapeways, and 5 days later the UPS guy brought me little plastic pieces!


My design is on the Shapeways web site and you can see the model here:
http://www.shapeways.com/model/952269/cylinder-study-2be.html?li=my-models&key=15c6a8ee31134438744f6510c95a0906

If you click on the right arrow or the shaded cube the model will revolve for you. You can actually follow the live staem and exhaust passages as the model revolves.

After I had studied the 3D printed parts for quite some time, I found a small number of errors that were hard to find in my CAD model even when I could see them in the plastic model.

I started this effort last fall - it took quite some time to become familiar with 3D modeling with the TurboCad software and quite a while to become comfortable with Jason's design.

I'm currently working on the outer shell molds and I am trying to get some more parts to the 3D printer soon. This is a very complicated casting and it hasn't been easy to get my arms around it, so to speak.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2013, 12:35:09 AM by Rick Sisson »

Steve Smith

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Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
« Reply #239 on: April 05, 2013, 01:33:08 AM »
Thank so much, Rick, and congratulations. That is impressive, in all respects! That it is difficult and time consuming to comprehend, even with the aid of such wonderful technology as Turbo Cad, shows so well what a complicated casting it is. The old time pattern makers and other foundry people sure had to be good at visualization, along with a bunch of other skills.