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Messages - Ed Lecuyer

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2026
Moderator Announcements / Re: Old Postings - Stay or Go?
« on: December 15, 2008, 09:42:34 AM »
I could make a new category (General Category, WW&F Railway Museum Discussion, The Original WW&F, Other Maine Two Foot Gauges, Worldwide Two Foot Gauges, and Other Narrow Gauge are the existing categories) called Archived Discussion Posts and then split it up in there into sections.

Or, I could add a new section for each category. For example, in WW&F Railway Museum Discussion, we already have Museum Discussion, Volunteers, and Work and Events. I would add a fourth section, Archived Discussion Posts that would contain all the old posts in all of the sections in that category.

Regardless, if someone replies to an old post, I'll move it into the active area.

The first option is slightly easier. The second option is (probably) more functionally useful.

I've got a busy schedule for the next few days - so any change will come at the end of this week.

2027
Moderator Announcements / Re: Old Postings - Stay or Go?
« on: December 15, 2008, 08:43:18 AM »
I like Wayne's idea, so I added it as its own poll answer. The one thing I would suggest is that if anyone responds to an old post, the moderators will move it to the 'active' area.

You may go back and change your vote (if you so wish.)

2028
Moderator Announcements / Old Postings - Stay or Go?
« on: December 14, 2008, 10:43:56 PM »
I've gotten conflicting public and private comments about the conversion of the old forum posts. Let me know how you want me to proceed.

2029
Museum Discussion / Re: Current end of track?
« on: December 13, 2008, 09:41:17 PM »
And here's a photo map of the current WW&F system.
(Yard trackage is omitted, since it would be hard to distinguish it at this scale.)

2030
Museum Discussion / Re: Current end of track?
« on: December 13, 2008, 09:40:02 PM »
Here's a topo map of the current WW&F system.
(Yard trackage is omitted, since it would be hard to distinguish it at this scale.)

2031
Archives (General) / Re: OLD FORUM POSTINGS ARE BACK!!!
« on: December 13, 2008, 08:21:29 PM »
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Is the old forum going away?


Well, as you may recall the reason why we switched to the new forum was because the free service that was hosting it was down for several days. This caused us all to go into WW&F withdrawal. The old forum could (theoretically) disappear at any time.

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I would have rather left the old forum where it was.

James and I had talked about converting the old forum over several months ago. I just never got enough time to do it. However, if the consensus is not to convert the postings, I'll be happy to stop (and delete the ones I've converted.)

2032
Museum Discussion / Re: Current end of track?
« on: December 13, 2008, 07:28:30 PM »
From Sheepscot to Top of the Mountain will be about 2.5 miles.

2033
Museum Discussion / Re: B&SR Socony Tank
« on: December 13, 2008, 07:23:58 PM »
I wouldn't get to used to calling it #601 - I'm sure that others will decide what number it will (eventually) receive.

2034
Archives (General) / Re: OLD FORUM POSTINGS ARE BACK!!!
« on: December 13, 2008, 07:22:44 PM »
I just posted a pile more. It's not as easy as I would like to post the converted topics, so I will probably stagger their release over the next few days. There are over 600 posts to be converted. I'm not even half done, yet.

Please be careful when replying to these posts. Some are 2-3 years old and contain outdated information. They also chronicle some of the great progress we've made over the last few years.

2035
Museum Discussion / Re: Current end of track?
« on: December 13, 2008, 07:19:26 PM »
Matt,

This is an OLD thread. The track has since been extended, twice.

We now have well over 2 miles of in-service track, and 1200' of track that will probably be ready for service in the spring. This brings us about 1200' south of the Top of the Mountain.

2036
Museum Discussion / Re: Poles for flat cars for Picnic
« on: December 13, 2008, 07:16:53 PM »
The poles that were eventually constructed are based on similar poles pictured on the original WW&F. They look kind of big, but that's what was used.

2037
Archives (Museum) / Comfort facilities
« on: December 13, 2008, 07:14:57 PM »
MODERATORS NOTE:
Comfort facilities has been converted from the pre-July 2008 WW&F Discussion Forum.
Some formatting may have been removed or modified from the original postings that appear quoted in this topic.
Information contained within this post may be superseded by more recent postings and conversations.

Wayne Laepple wrote:
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Now that Mike has reopened the car storage discussion and we've got a thread going about the B&SR tank car, we need to start thinking again about comfort facilities. I would think with the experiences of last week, with over 700 visitors to the museum, the inadequacies of the Green House should be clear to all. Construction of visitor-friendly comfort facilities should move to the top of the priority list now.

Since we now own the Percival house, perhaps consideration might be given to erecting an addition on the rear of the house to include three unisex lavatories and a shower room. Each lavatory should be identical and fully ADA compliant, with commode and sink and tile floor for ease of cleaning. The shower room should include a tiled shower and a laundry-style deep sink. The question is whether the leach field can be expanded to accomodate these facilities.

Once the parking area on the Boudin site is ready for use, a path from the parking lot to the station on the north side of the house would pass near the restrooms, encouraging visitors to stop there before they board the train.

James Patten replied:
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The existing leach field is too small for use with industrial-sized restrooms.  Zack has already identified a good place for a leach field, on the northwest corner of the lot we bought from Clarissa several years ago (provided experts agree, of course).

I'm hoping we can tie the house into the new leach field once built, and retire "Septic Heights".   The house's tank is basically just north of the little shed next to the house, so it's kind of in the way of any traffic we'd want to route that way.

Once the foliage dies off this fall, the Long Range Planning Committee will get together, take a good look at the entire property and figure out how parking, restrooms, and other goodies fit into the puzzle.

Dave Olszewski replied:
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Hi Wayne,

I agree with you. We should work on house first and build restrooms and shower first. Also we build new parking lot. I haven't seen anyone use that house since museum buy it.  But they just parked cars there.  We need to get rid  of green house.

Dave

Bill Reidy replied:
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Once the foliage dies off this fall, the Long Range Planning Committee will get together, take a good look at the entire property and figure out how parking, restrooms, and other goodies fit into the puzzle.

James' post hits the nail on the head.  There are several important, competing needs for our property in Sheepscot.  Our first step should be a site plan for the property that considers all our needs.

Bill

James Patten replied:
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We need to get rid  of green house.

I firmly believe that the permanent bathroom building should be painted green.  After all, we must keep the gag going....

Bill Reidy replied:
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I sure hope the new green permanent bathroom building includes the heat lamp as well!

Bill

Steve Smith replied:
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And be sure to include the croaking door spring!

Oily

Mike Fox replied:
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We'll have to build it light so the new green house can blow over like the current one does. Maybe surprize the occupant at the same time.
I hope during the walk, the Long Range Planning committee can envision where a replicated Wiscasset enginehouse would fit in in the future.
Maybe the Comfort Facilities could some how be attached to Bay 4 (Expand north) to use the current heat. Perhaps this could be part of the engine house expansion that is needed. Track 7 might need to be relocated West a bit but I thing a nice set of facilities could be built in that location without the track having to be moved. I could draw up something and post it if someone is interested.
Mike

John McNamara replied:
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Maybe the Comfort Facilities could some how be attached to Bay 4 (Expand north) to use the current heat. Perhaps this could be part of the engine house expansion that is needed. Track 7 might need to be relocated West a bit but I thing a nice set of facilities could be built in that location without the track having to be moved. I could draw up something and post it if someone is interested.
Mike

That location has been considered, but it poses a couple of problems. One is that the effluent would have to be pumped a substantial distance to get to the disposal field, which is envisioned to be on the far side of the Percival house. Secondly, I think there may be a restriction on how close the toilets (and the disposal field) can be to the Percival House well. For residences, I think it is 100 feet, but for "commercial installations," which this would be, I've heard (from Zack) that the number is 250 feet. The whole issue of toilets, disposal fields, and wells is a gigantic chess-board problem.

Dave Olszewski replied:
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We'll have to build it light so the new green house can blow over like the current one does. Maybe surprize the occupant at the same time.
I hope during the walk, the Long Range Planning committee can envision where a replicated Wiscasset enginehouse would fit in in the future.
Maybe the Comfort Facilities could some how be attached to Bay 4 (Expand north) to use the current heat. Perhaps this could be part of the engine house expansion that is needed. Track 7 might need to be relocated West a bit but I thing a nice set of facilities could be built in that location without the track having to be moved. I could draw up something and post it if someone is interested.
Mike

Hi Mike,

If you think they would add comfort facilities to Bay 4. Then what will they do with the house. We should use house as comfort facilities with dorm for volunteer. Maybe it would be great if we convert house into recation or club house so passengers or volunteer would get together for lunch or dinner there or social. Also they would have picnic area with tables by house or have large porch there. So it will be nice for group to use them for lunch or dinner. Maybe house would have same color as station. Light blue and dark green.  It would be nice if they remove kitchen from Bay 1 and park  cars there and maybe add track there.

Dave

Mike Fox replied:
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Mine was a "crappy" idea anyway. Just trying to keep it close so our guest don't have to walk half way to Alna Center to take care of business.
Another thought. How about moving the well? It is only a dug well and maybe a spot on the West side of the house could give us more freedom or "comfort".
Mike

James Patten replied:
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Which well are you thinking about moving, the Percival well?

We have thought about it, maybe putting the well further west onto the Boudin purchase.  It was deemed impractical at the time, because we were watering the locomotive from it and the well water is excellent water, and we didn't know what quality of water or flowage rate we would get (the Percival well replenishes fairly rapidly).

Now with the tank in place, our dependence on the Percival water has diminished greatly.  Maybe it's time to rethink that.

Stephen Hussar replied:
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Public restrooms -- I am very much in favor of building an addition onto the back of the Percival house. It would eliminate the eyesore factor of seeing a dedicated bathroom building among the various railroad structures, it would be cheaper to build it as an addition, and as Wayne states it would on the way to and from the parking lot. I'd even go as far as to say the Percival house could be slightly altered (remodeled) to resemble some sort of railroad-type building... just discussing here 

elecuyer replied:
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I had an idea for the location/style of the restroom:

The original WW&F had some boxcars (grain cars?) that not only had the traditional side doors, but also doors on each end. What if we built a public restroom that resembles one of these cars. One end/entrance would be men, the other for the ladies. The idea would be to make a structure that looks like it "fits in" at Sheepscot - as if an old railroad car was converted to this purpose. However, it would be completely new construction inside and out and the facilities would be modern.

The Naugatuck Railroad/RR Museum of NE did something similar - again using new construction to fabricate a "coach that was converted to a restroom":
http://photos.nerail.org/showpic/?2004072817052521972.jpg

As far as placement, it really could go anywhere. However, it might fit nicely between the station and the carbarn/shop.

I'm also thinking that this would not be a crew bathroom/locker/shower facility. That would come at a later time, in a different location.

-Ed Lecuyer

Ira Schreiber replied:
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Both the Winnepasaukie Railroad and the San Luis & Rio Grande use con verted boxcars for restrooms. The formers is rather simple but the San Luis has a facility that rivals any commercial facility and is in a real boxcar.
Using a "boxcar" is an excellent idea, IMHO.
Ira

Mike Fox replied:
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Yes James, I was thinking of the Percival well. Something else the LRPC could keep in mind.
And a Boxcar. Hmmm. Doable. 2 toilets per side. 1  ADA compliant per side.  Might get kind of crowded in a Narrow gauge car. Might have to go Standard Gauge to get the room needed to be compliant.
Mike

elecuyer replied:
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The good thing about doing new construction *in the style of* a boxcar is that it doesn't have to use the exact dimensions. For example, if a 2' gauge car is usually 6' wide, we could make the boxcar/restroom 7' wide and very few people would notice.

In fact, I think I read that the Naugy's "Comfort Coach" is not exactly "to scale."

-Ed Lecuyer

Wayne Laepple replied:
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Somewhere I saw the whole story of the Naugy's "comfort coach" project, complete with drawings, interior photos, etc. It's quite the facility, but it may be a lot more than we need at this point. If we're going to go that route, perhaps a structure that resembles WW&F no. 301 would work, as it was a caboose similar to no. 320 but without a cupola. The center door could provide for a unisex handicap restroom or a shower area. Perhaps it could be located somewhere in the vicinity of the roundhouse so it looks as if it "belongs" there. I think if it was between the parking lot and the station, it would encourage folks to use it before they get on the train.

The bottom line in this discussion of restroom facilties has got to be ease of maintenance. No one likes to clean toilets and sinks, but someone has to do it. It must be done at least daily and perhaps more often than that if heavily used. Any volunteers?

John McNamara replied:
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The big question at the moment is how many fixtures we need. This depends upon our maximum daily visitor count and is established by some kind of town or state ordinance. While we want to be honest about our passenger count and also want to plan for the future, we don't want an excessively large and expensive facility. I believe that various Board members are presently contemplating this problem.

The location is also a interesting problem, as I mentioned before. Close to the station is important for last minute "have-to-go" folks, but poses the aforementioned problems of long pumping distances, as the Percival well and the clay-like soils (near Station House Brook, no less) means that the disposal field will have to be quite far from the station.

Some have suggested that we should keep the green house and offer the last minute "have-to-go" folks that option. Chances are they would decide they really didn't need to go all that bad

Wayne Laepple replied:
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Another possible configuration for a comfort caboose patterned after WW&F no. 301 could be for all access through the large center door, with entry into unisex restrooms to the right and left. The ADA regs call for a minimum 6 x 6 feet for wheelchair maneuvering space, so there would be about 6 feet left at each end of the car. Perhaps one end could contain the mechanical room for heat, hot water and supply storage, and the other end a shower room for members and/or a third non-accessible lavatory.

If the Boudin parking area is developed as the primary visitor parking lot, a path through the woods north of the Percival house would lead arriving passengers past the restroom building before they get to the station, and the run of soil pipe to a leach field located in the northwest corner of the property would be shorter.

John McNamara replied:
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How about this for true railroad authenticity? The comfort caboose is parked near the building during the day and is equipped with a retention tank. At the end of the day, it is moved to an unloading point where the contents are discharged into the septic tank.

Yes, I am joking 

Dave Olszewski replied:
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Some have suggested that we should keep the green house and offer the last minute "have-to-go" folks that option. Chances are they would decide they really didn't need to go all that bad /i]

John,

I know many people don't like to use green house there. It is not comfortable. Handcapped  people can't use it. We need to get rid of it and get better restroom with running water for hands washing. Boothbay Village RR and other RR have nice restroom. WW&F RR have lousey restroom. It is time to change it.

Dave
[/quote]

Wayne Laepple replied:
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Having a portable restroom facility, even if it's on rails, probably isn't a good idea. Who would want to take on the unenviable task of emptying the tank every day? It would only take one mistake, like forgetting to disconnect the discharge hose, to have a real mess.

The ultimate location of the comfort facility may well rest upon how far the effluent must be pumped to reach the leach field. I have visited quite a number of railway museums (and other museums) where visitors have to walk some distance to reach the restrooms, and I don't recall seeing anyone leave because the facilities were too far away.

Mike Fox replied:
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How about this for true railroad authenticity? The comfort caboose is parked near the building during the day and is equipped with a retention tank. At the end of the day, it is moved to an unloading point where the contents are discharged into the septic tank.

That's why we got the tank car. It will be Numbered simply No. 2. Kidding.
Seriously, I think if we had 4 toilets, 2 per sex and one ADA compliant per sex would be plenty. And plenty of room for busy days.
Mike

James Patten replied:
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Run a track down the hill on the east side of the track, next to the passenger shelter.  Put the tank car down there.  Build a couple of gravity-fed toilets off the shelter, which feed into the tank.  Lock the doors when the tank car isn't there

Stephen Hussar replied:
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Wonder if these would work for the museum? These "waterless" systems are in roadside rest stops all over the country...
http://www.falconwaterfree.com/products/index.htm

Ira Schreiber replied:
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Seashore Trolley Museum uses the Falcon system as well as most  the rest areas along I-95 in this area.
Ira

elecuyer replied:
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I assume that traditional toliets must still be installed for the ladies as well as #2 business. So the advantage is to conserve water (and septic requirements) for #1 male customers? Will that really gain us anything?

Ira Schreiber replied:
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Without getting too deep in the subject, #1 male business is the #1 water user, ergo the best way to save the most water. Female visitors are less than 50% of our guests.

Stephen Hussar replied:
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So the advantage is to conserve water (and septic requirements) for #1 male customers? Will that really gain us anything?
Anything seen as 'green' is good.

James Patten replied:
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I'm sure Zack is all for less Museum plumbing business.  The waterless looks OK to me.

Most of the year women are probably less than 25% of our guests.  But then there's Halloween and Christmas and at that time the ratio is probably closer to 50/50.

Bill Sample replied:
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At the RMNE/Naugatuck RR, our "comfort coach" has 2 urinals plus 2 stalls (1 being ADA) and 2 wash sinks at the gents end.  The ladies have 3 sinks and 6 stalls, 1 being ADA.  A small utility room (about 3 1/2 ft long) containing a janitor's sink, a water heater, and room for supplies is between the two sections, accessible from either end.  We have no shower or locker area in it as those facilities will eventually be included in the new shop, as described in the RyPN article mentioned elsewhere in this forum.
We do have a lot of bus tour business and having a good toilet facility is very important in attracting that type of business, and having a generous capacity at the ladies room end is part of the plan.  (Having groups in would certainly increase the ratio of female visitors.)
My wife Sue had a lot of input in the planning of the facilty.  I would suggest getting some input from the women involved with the WW&F in any planning - I'm sure their ideas would be valuable and appreciated.

John McNamara replied:
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At the RMNE/Naugatuck RR, our "comfort coach" has 2 urinals plus 2 stalls (1 being ADA) and 2 wash sinks at the gents end.  The ladies have 3 sinks and 6 stalls, 1 being ADA. .

Bill, do you happen to know what maxium daily visitor load was used in sizing this facility? Thanks in advance!

gordon cook replied:
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I'm sure Zack is all for less Museum plumbing business.  The waterless looks OK to me.

Most of the year women are probably less than 25% of our guests.  But then there's Halloween and Christmas and at that time the ratio is probably closer to 50/50.

At the risk of stereotyping, I've observed that women have a greater need for restroom visits than the male population, especially older women and young mom's, which we get a lot of. While the number of women visitors might indeed be fewer on a typical weekend,  our busier days may dictate the need for more generous facilities for the ladies.
_________________
Gawdon

John McNamara replied:
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I've heard, perhaps incorrectly, that there are legal requirements in some places that the womens facilities be larger than the mens.

Mike Fox replied:
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Yes John, because they always go in two's. But if we make the ladies happy, the gents will have a great time and will be able to return.
Mike

James Patten replied:
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Zack did some research last week and looked up the rules regarding the number of toilets we need, based on our max visitor count (between 200 and 400 is the range).  If I remember correctly, we'll need 4 male and 4 (or was it 5) female toilets.  Of course the male can be divided between urinals and stalls.

I don't think a "comfort boxcar" will be large enough.  If that's the path we take, we may need two buildings, one for each gender.

Ira Schreiber replied:
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The "boxcar" comfort station at the San Luis & Rio Grande is a converted 50' box car and has adequate room for both sexes as well as a supply room and one other, this use of which escapes me. It is totally ADA accessable.
A wood Maine Central box car of "broad guage" would be large enough for us and keep it in the proper era.
Seashore has a number of these ex- Maine Central wood boxcars used for storage..

Wayne Laepple replied:
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I think building to accomodate 400 visitors at once would be a waste of our resources. If you look at the restrooms in the Maine Turnpike's rest areas, there are 3 or 4 toilets and about the same number of urinals for men. I haven't been in the ladies side, but it's got to be about the same. I daresay there are more than 400 people per day using those facilities, and rarely do you see a line. We should look into the minimum requirements based on our average attendance and plan to rent portable toilets for occasions when a greater crowd is expected. Has anyone been to Seashore lately to determine how large their comfort stations are? How about Owl's Head and Boothbay? Seashore, by the way, has two comfort stations, one in their visitors center and the other up by Central Barn. The Central facility was the only one for quite a few years, after they finally retired Little River, which was a wooden outhouse in the middle of a field!

Ira Schreiber replied:
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I can only comment on the male side at Seashore, but the facility in the Visitors Center has, I believe, three stalls, one of which is wheelchair accessable, and two waterless urinals. There are three sinks and two drying stations.
I believe their set up was based on a tour bus crowd of 50 hitting at once. I have been there for special events, and it seems to adequately fit the needs with crowds up to one hundred or more.
There are two schools of thought. Build for the average crowd and build for the maximum crowd. Of course, this has to take in current and projected train capacity. The one tour bus at a time scenario seems adequate for us for the forseeable future.

Wayne Laepple replied:
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I was in an office building today populated by about 250 workers of both sexes. The only men's restroom featured two toilets and one urinal, two sinks and one paper towel dispenser. The women's side featured three stalls, two sinks and two towel dispensers. Each one had one ADA-compliant stall.

It would be worthwhile, I think, to look into the advantages/disadvantages of unisex lavatories, since it might be possible (for example) to have four individual unisex restrooms, all equipped alike and equally accessible. I have been in office buildings with that sort of arrangement, which seems to be successful.

James Patten replied:
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I'm pretty sure the rules require us to look at our max visitor count, not an average count.

Unisex facilities might be a good way to go too.

Ira Schreiber replied:
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I visited the Shoreline Trolley Museum  (Branford) this past weekend.
Much smaller than Seashore, their men's room had two stalls, one of which is ADA, and two urinals. The Sprague building has been easily modified for ADA compliance.

Wayne Laepple replied:
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But what is the maximum visitor count? Do we even know? Is it the highest number of visitors in one day thus far, or is it some theoretical figure that might happen 15 years hence? If the Halloween event yields the highest number of visitors in one day, are we saddled with that for the rest of the year when daily ridership is 10 or 20 percent of that figure? That doesn't seem fair. Or are we subscribing to the "Field of Dreams" theory of construction: "if you build it, they will come"?

Ira Schreiber replied:
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As a tour bus driver who has been on many tours, I can tell you the lack of adequate restrooms is the #1 reason for tours to bypass an attraction.
#2 is lack of accessability for Seniors
#3 is lack of bus parking.

With all the publicity we are getting and our fine reputation, this lack is holding us back. It is a #1 priority for growth.
A minimal facility will do for starters and if demand shows otherwise, we can always expand.
2+2 for the men and 3 toilets for the women, with one of each ADA would be the minimum IMHO.

John McNamara replied:
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With all the publicity we are getting and our fine reputation, this lack is holding us back. It is a #1 priority for growth.
A minimal facility will do for starters and if demand shows otherwise, we can always expand.  2+2 for the men and 3 toilets for the women, with one of each ADA would be the minimum IMHO.

I think I hear a consensus building for 2+2 for men and 4 toilets for the women, with one toilet on each side being ADA. Of course none of our discussions here really mean too much, as it is state and town regulations that will determine the actual sizing.

Wayne Laepple replied:
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From the comments above, it seems that neither the town nor the state is too interested in how many visitors we have, until it comes to the matter of toilets. So we could have a thousand visitors a day with one porta-john and no one official would be upset?

dwight winkley replied:
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When the Seashore Trolley Museum was planning there new comfort facilities they were told what they needed for the men and woman restrooms. It was based on a bus load or two all rushing in to use the restrooms at the same time. They should be able to tell you who to contact for this kind of information.
dwight

Ira Schreiber replied:
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Today, serving as a CPI(Chief Potty Inspector), I visited the restroom at the top of Mt. Washington.
There are two stalls, one is ADA and three urinals. There was a line of 10-12 after arrival of each train.
Same story of the line for the ladies but I did not check on the facilities there!

Allan Fisher replied:
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I think that all our members should understand that the WW&F is not going to  knowingly violate any public toilet requirements as contained in Maine and Federal ADA rules.

Based on International and Standard Plumbing Codes, at our maximum hourly count of visitors, we will probably need one urinal and one commode for males and three commodes for women. (ADA  3:2 female to male requirement)

After a night of googling toilet requirements in Maine, I am sure that  our next step is to hire a sanitary engineer to tell us exactly what we need  - Our Board has authorized this first step - and hopefully we will have all we need to start raising money for toilets next year.

Ira Schreiber replied:
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Allan,
Thanks for the input. As much as we can discuss this subject, it is ultimately up the the Government to say what the minimum requirements will be for us.
I just hope the treasury is FLUSH enough to implement this in a timely manner.

Wayne Laepple replied:
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Thanks for the update from the front, Allan. We may want to set up the men's facility with two urinals and one ADA-compliant stool. The ladies side could be arranged with one ADA and two standard toilets. This configuration would be similar to what we have at WK&S, where we handle 12-15,000 passengers annually. That facility is in a basic cinder block building. I sent a number of photos to James or Steve Z. of that building a year ago or so. It's nothing fancy, but it's serviceable. I asked a local contractor here in central Pennsylvania for a back of the envelope "guess-timate" of cost, and he figured $14,000.

And again, I would lobby for a single shower room to be included in the construction.

John McNamara replied:
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I asked a local contractor here in central Pennsylvania for a back of the envelope "guess-timate" of cost, and he figured $14,000.

Ah, but the disposal field would be fairly costly. The first time I asked Zack about the costs for rest rooms, he said $30,000. The next time I asked he said $70,000. Needless to say, I'm not tempted to ask again for fear we'll hit $100,000!

Mike Fox replied:
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How about a caboose? Doors and windows would work and the vent pipe sticking out of the roof would look appropriate.
Mike

John McNamara replied:
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Depending upon what the size requirements turn out to be, we might also consider creating a building that resembles a WW&F station.

Stewart Rhine replied:
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I like the "caboose" rest room idea.  As Mike said, it would look good and give us the type of structure that would hold ADA compliant stalls and a shower.  Wayne posted it a while back - a modified/enlarged version of the 301 would work as long as we don't need more than 3 stalls per side.  The building would be sectioned into three parts.  The center sliding door would be for the wheelchair access stall and the end doors for access to regular stalls.  One end is the ladies room and the other for men.  The shower would be in the center room, next to the wheelchair stall.  That way either gender can use the shower without having to lock a side restroom door.  Showers are taken after visiting hours so locking the center wheelchair door is not a problem.   John noted the plumbing and leach field will be the most expensive part of the project.

Dave Olszewski replied:
Quote
Quote
I like the "caboose" rest room idea.  As Mike said, it would look good and give us the type of structure that would hold ADA compliant stalls and a shower.  Wayne posted it a while back - a modified/enlarged version of the 301 would work as long as we don't need more than 3 stalls per side.  The building would be sectioned into three parts.  The center sliding door would be for the wheelchair access stall and the end doors for access to regular stalls.  One end is the ladies room and the other for men.  The shower would be in the center room, next to the wheelchair stall.  That way either gender can use the shower without having to lock a side restroom door.  Showers are taken after visiting hours so locking the center wheelchair door is not a problem.   John noted the plumbing and leach field will be the most expensive part of the project.

It was silly to use caboose as restroom. What will we do with house if we use caboose as restroom. Would house be useless? They already spend alot of money on house purchase.

Dave

Ira Schreiber replied:
Quote
I like the idea of a standard gauge wood boxcar from Maine Central. This would be:
a: authentic
b: allow a comparison to 2' size box car
c: give us a 40' long facility
As I mentioned, Seashore has a number of these cars returning to nature.
We could do a realistic Bridgton transfer lifesize diorama.
Ira

John McNamara replied:
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Quote
It was silly to use caboose as restroom. What will we do with house if we use caboose as restroom. Would house be useless? They already spend alot of money on house purchase.
Dave

Unfortunately the house does not have enough space for adequate public restrooms, and the septic disposal field does not have enough capacity.

Mike Fox replied:
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I suppose using the boxcar, a track could be built next to it and park 309 there for a size comparison.
On the other hand, a caboose could have up to 4 doors entering it from 4 sides and still look proper. The vent pipe could be strategically located to look like a stove pipe. And it could be built to Standard gauge proportions to meet the size requirements and still show the size difference between the gauges. MEC colors of the time period would be appropriate.
Mike

Wayne Laepple replied:
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Just a few problems with either a standard gauge boxcar or caboose. If they were up in the air to show the difference in size compared with two-foot equipment, ramps would be required for handicap access. And the pipes would have to be insulated in the space above ground level. Also, I am a bit leery of wooden cars, since they require constant painting and fairly regular replacement of sheathing.

We might want to consider a building that resembles one of the outbuildings in the Wiscasset yard, like the blacksmith shop, and sheath it with T1-11 or a similar product. It could be insulated for use in the fall and spring, with some sort of heating system, and be drained and winterized for the coldest months.

Remember, we want this building to require minimum effort to maintain.  The facilities must be kept spotlessly clean and attractive, which could become a major issue. Making the interior totally washable goes a long way in that department.

And by the way, if a shower could be included in the basement of the Percival house, that would be one less thing to maintain in the public restrooms building.

Stewart Rhine replied:
Quote
Wayne, The replica caboose building works if we cover it in the plastic boards that look like wood.  Ths stuff is very durable and looks good.  That way the exterior is maint free.  As you noted, the inside should be washable.  We have restrooms at the fire station that can be hosed out and it works very well.

I figure that a 7.5 X 34 foot "car" will have the required room for the stall chambers and closet for the water cut off and water heater.  The 301 (without cupola) would be a good building for our purpose.

Now, a MEC boxcar - hmm, I'd have to make a whole new set of stencils ... 

Bill Sample replied:
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IIRC the Naugatuck Railroad's Thomaston CT "Comfort Coach" was designed to handle 400-500 passengers per day, with the impact of bus tours being considered.  The Comfort Coach does have the advantage of a municipal sewage system connection.

Allan Fisher replied:
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We have received some very good preliminary news on the state requirements for a new sewage system for the museum. Our sanitary engineer consultant has said that we will need a 2000 gallon holding tank, and only a sewage field which will handle the equivalent of a three bedroom house septic system.

He will be walking the property this weekend to see where he will recommend we put everything. Toilets - by ADA regs - have to be relatively close to where they are needed and have reasonable walkways that can be negotiated by handicapped persons with or without wheel chairs.

Whether we can incorporate existing facilities for Clarissa's with new facilities for public toilets will be examined.

More Later.

Mike Fox replied:
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Thanks Allan. Great to know this is progressing well.
Mike

Dave Olszewski replied:
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Quote
We have received some very good preliminary news on the state requirements for a new sewage system for the museum. Our sanitary engineer consultant has said that we will need a 2000 gallon holding tank, and only a sewage field which will handle the equivalent of a three bedroom house septic system.

He will be walking the property this weekend to see where he will recommend we put everything. Toilets - by ADA regs - have to be relatively close to where they are needed and have reasonable walkways that can be negotiated by handicapped persons with or without wheel chairs.

Whether we can incorporate existing facilities for Clarissa's with new facilities for public toilets will be examined.

More Later.

Thank you for inform us. When will we start to work on it? I hope it won't cost alot of money for new restroom. 

It was good that we have house so cooks use kitchen to wash dishes.  I don't know if they cook meals there. I know they cook at Bay 1. Last Saturday I went there and change clothes there. I saw a cook washing pots there.

Dave

Wayne Laepple replied:
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Just wondering whether there is any news vis-a-vis a potential locations and/or design for the restroom facility. Back in October the welcome news seemed to be that a holding tank would be acceptable to the state, with a consultant about to visit the museum and make recommendations. Did he?

James Patten replied:
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A septic engineer came by and has marked out an area for the leach field.

The Long Range Planning committee seems to have wrapped up discussion on parking, and one of the things still to discuss is the bathrooms.  Now that we think we know where the lot and driveway is, we can place the building on the map.

Wayne Laepple replied:
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I understand Frank Knight recently drew up an unofficial but well-received scale drawing of the museum site which included parking, roadways, restrooms, etc. Any chance a scan of that drawing could appear on this "unofficial" discussion board?

James Patten replied:
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Frank has created an accurate, to-scale map of the Museum area and the property lines.  Currently the only "new" things he's added is a turntable, roundhouse (neither finalized yet), and parking.

Frank's welcome to post the version without the non-existant stuff, but I'd rather wait until we have the whole picture to release the speculative things.

Mike Fox replied:
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I hope to see that on here. That way some might be able to make suggestions of how to make it better if possible, or potential problems that might arise. A lot easier sometimes to tinker with a drawing than to wind up with something that isn't quite what was expected.
Mike

James Patten replied:
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We want to get input from everybody before finalizing the plan.  When it is ready to release, it will be found here and at Sheepscot.

2038
Museum Discussion / B&SR Socony Tank
« on: December 13, 2008, 07:10:53 PM »
MODERATORS NOTE:
B&SR Socony Tank has been converted from the pre-July 2008 WW&F Discussion Forum.
Some formatting may have been removed or modified from the original postings that appear quoted in this topic.
Information contained within this post may be superseded by more recent postings and conversations.

Allan Fisher wrote:
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The Museum is now the owner of the larger (of two) B&SR Socony Tank.

Delivered to the museum Thursday, Richard Verney was able to unload it next to track 7 easier than the hired crane at Portland could load it.

The tank will be made usable over the winter and spring, and maybe next year, if we get some grant money, we will build the replica B&SR 14, 21 or 22   to go under it for use in Fire Train Service

For those purists, the B&SR tanks were originally painted BLACK.

Glenn Christensen replied:
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Quote
The Museum is now the owner of the larger (of two) B&SR Socony Tank.

That's GREAT news Allan!  Thanks to the folks at MNG for being willing to ensure the tank's future and thanks and congratulations to you guys for doing the same!

Sincerely,
Glenn

Dave Buczkowski replied:
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Allan;
Christmas in September is always good news. How did this all come about? Did we purchase it? Inquiring minds want to know. Now we have a good, historic reason to apply for a grant.
Dave

Stephen Hussar replied:
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Marcel took this picture yesterday...thanks Marcel!


Mike Fox replied:
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Ira had told me he went down and negotiated for it. It is all ours. Bought and paid for to do with what we want. It will give Stewart something else to paint next time he is up.
Mike

John McNamara replied:
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Marcel's picture is a great picture, but it leaves out some important details, namely the tears and rusted areas that are on the side toward the patked cars. It is a wonderful historic piece, but it will require a lot of work before is can be used.

Bruce Wilson replied:
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In Marcel's photo, some patches appear evident. Am I correct that rivited patches are shown in roughly the eleven o'clock and twelve o'clock positions?

Is the thought to repair the damaged areas (as described by John) with rivited patches also?

Hats off to those involved in saving this great piece!

ekmissal replied:
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Marcel's picture is a great picture, but it leaves out some important details, namely the tears and rusted areas that are on the side toward the patked cars.

If you look, in the upper left corner, you can see 2 old tears that have been previously repaired. We'll just have to do some more.

This is a great chance to restore another piece of rare ME 2 foot equipment.

Mike Fox replied:
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I'll have to dig into the B&SR books. Those patches might have been put on by the railroad. And I can imagine after siting on the ground for a period of time, the metal would be soft enough to puncture easily.
Mike

James Patten replied:
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On the N end of the tank, riveted patches to the underside are quite evident.  Looks like one patch over another, actually.

Mike Fox replied:
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Ok. Done with My research.The cars were originally a light color, possibly gray or white with Black letters. Not the other way around. See Two Feet to the Lakes, page 69. This photo was taken around 1900.  Also in Peter S. Barney's book, Bridgton and Saco River freight cars, page 77 shows an excellent picture taken in 1920 of this car.Page 78 has another view a few years later.
Also on Page 78, the Patches on the south end show up. They were on the B end of the car which would have been the south end on the B&SR. The cars were never turnd so if the tank was installed on a car the way it is pointed, it would be the same orientation as was on the B&SR.
And in Marcels photo, the cable that is sticking out from the dome is actually a strap that was used to hook it to the flatcar it was on.
Mike

Ted Miles replied:
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I have seen this item both at Edaville and at Maine Narrow Gague Museum.

I would like to know what happened to the frame and trucks?  Did they keep them in Portland?

The second tank car is at Portland and was freshly painted about 2000.

Ted Miles

Ira Schreiber replied:
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I did not negotiate for the tank car, as that was done by others. I merely "applied some grease to the skids" to get the process moving quickly.
Jason was the point person on this and to him should go the kudos.
The car at MNGM is NOT #14 but rather a replica, however, the tank on it is the original.

Dave Buczkowski replied:
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In looking at the tank again I wonder whether the WW&F Marine Division might be interested in using it for underwater exploration along the Sheepscot River.
Dave

Mike Fox replied:
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Ted, I am sure over time the car that was under it just rotted away to the point where it was unusable. Perhaps the trucks and truss rods were used in one of Edavilles fine creations.
Dave, I'll stay behind and make sure the lid is closed tightly for you.
Mike

Stephen Hussar replied:
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Quote
the WW&F Marine Division might be interested in using it for underwater exploration along the Sheepscot River. Dave
Dave, Ira actually took it out for a spin last weekend, much to the surprise of one of the local fishing charters! 


Jason M Lamontagne replied:
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Hi all,

I'm glad to see the enthusiasm for the tank.  It took a fair amount of discussion, and honing of details over a long period of time with MNG to make it happen.  Thanks to Ira for a couple well timed visits to help the process along as I worked with MNG's Sue Davis over the phone.  We're grateful to them for allowing the deal to happen- everyone involved just wanted to see a piece of history preserved.

The tank does require repair- to sum it up the bottom quarter needs replacement.  I have a rough repair plan worked up which would involve cutting out each course one at a time, leaving the riveted seams in place for structure and for their looks, and welding in flush patches to each course.  As I say this is a rough plan- I was trying to think of a riveted repair; while possible a welded repair brings this project into tangible reality.  Other thoughts arfe welcome.

Allan mentioned a one year time frame- if this works it'd be great- particularly with grant money (from a new source) so we're not draining from current resources which are needed for higher priorities.  While I obviously want to see it happen, I don't want it to be a stress or bump other activities- if the tank needs to sit for a while, so be it.

If we don't get to it right off- it seems plausible to plunk it on an existing flatcar for a photo op sometime next year- of course it'd have to come right off again.

see ya
Jason

Joe Fox replied:
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I was wondering, when I read that the car had been purchased for use as a fire car, if it would be used the way Cumbres & Toltec use some of their tank cars. Have two nozzles, one on each side, that spray water onto the ground, beside the track. I saw this on YouTube, and I thought it was a good idea. Here is the link to the video,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hlgeqFODME8

You see the tank car, spraying the water, at video time 00:46. So I was wondering, is that the idea that was in mind for the tank car? If not, is it an idea to at least think about?

Joe

tomc replied:
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Joe,

Spraying water on the ROW is helping weeds grow and makes a bigger fire hazard.  A pump and hose setup is a better fire fighting scenereo.  I believe the C&TS doesn't do this anymore.

Tom C.
_________________
Later;
tom_srclry_com

Bruce Wilson replied:
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I can remember seeing the old Bridgton "Socony" tank within the Edaville junkyard for many years. The junkyard was an area down by the grade crossing at Edaville Avenue, near Eastman's Flume. Things that went there were primarily just there for storage, with eventual re-use a possibility. Luckily, the tank was saved. Again, a great job to all involved in bringing it up to Sheepscot. Count me as one interested in donating to its' restoration.

Stephen Hussar replied:
Quote
A view of the underside. Thanks, Marcel.


Mike Fox replied:
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I looked this over Saturday and it appears in decent shape. I am afraid though that when Jason starts to repair the bottom of the tank, the metal may be found to be thin in more places. This being from being upright with no cover over the opening to the interior so moisture got into the inside. But we can cross that bridge when we get there. Just a little more patching is all.
The pipe sticking out of the bottom actually apears to be a valve. Inside the lid there is a ratchet handle that is on a threaded rod that goes into this pipe to open and close the valve. Of course it is frozen stiff with rust.
Mike

John McNamara replied:
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Quote
Ok. Done with My research.The cars were originally a light color, possibly gray or white with Black letters. Not the other way around. See Two Feet to the Lakes, page 69. This photo was taken around 1900.  Also in Peter S. Barney's book, Bridgton and Saco River freight cars, page 77 shows an excellent picture taken in 1920 of this car.Page 78 has another view a few years later. Mike

Now I'm getting confused. On page 234 of Two Feet to the Lakes there is a picture that almost looks "as delivered", as the "Standard Oil Company of New York" lettering is very clear. In this picture the tanks certainly seem to be the light color that Mike mentions. However, on page 235 it says that the tanks were painted aluminum, although at one time had black bodies with white lettering and white ends with black lettering. In Peter Barney's The Bridgton and Saco River (not his freight car book), it says that around 1922 they were black with white lettering "SOCONY" (no mention of the ends) and by the late 20s silver with black lettering.

Can anyone add to, subtract from, or clarify all this?

Thanks!
-John

James Patten replied:
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Not only could this be used for firefighting, but maybe we can use the tank for weed spraying as well.  Rig up a spray device that extends beyond the end of the ties which can be tied into the bottom valve, and let it gravity feed.

Wayne Laepple replied:
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I don't think so, James. I can think of at least two reasons why the B&SR tank car would not be suitable for weed spray: 1.) most products today require a licensed applicator for large quantities, and 2.) the product would tend to contaminate the water used for fire protetction because the products are often petroleum based. In addition, the mixture must be constantly agitated, and I don't think sloshing around counts.

James Patten replied:
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I didn't realize weed killer was petroleum based.  That would tend to cause some excitement for the first fire that got attacked after weed spraying!

Mike Fox replied:
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I was thinking of making a spraybar for the current firecar to do as James mentioned. But it would take a lot of Round up to fill even that 60 gallon tank.
And John, I am hoping we go with as built. They very well could have painted the car black with white ends and set the aluminum colored tank on it. I was thinking the car frame was the same color as the boxcars.
Mike

Mike Fox replied:
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I need to make a correction. I have read this tank may have been black to start out in 1904. Painted Aluminum in 1920 when Tank 22 was put into service. I have not found a picture showing this yet but hopefully before the paint brushes come out, we decide what historic color we would like to paint it. I am all for the SOCONY, but what color. Aluminum , black or even gray. Wish color film was around in 1910.
Mike

Stewart Rhine replied:
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Mike, I think we should paint the tank aluminum with black letters.  Looking through the available B&SR photos - it seems to be the most appropriate color.  As you know there are a number of color slides and movies of the B&HR in the 1938-41 era.  These may help identify colors in the latter years of service.  As to the car body, it sounds like we will use WW&F lettering and assign our own number so the "flat" will be painted like the 118.  I will donate paint for the tank to help move the project forward once we get to that point.

James Patten replied:
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Instead of SOCONY (Std Oil Company of New York) we should letter it SHOCOA (Std Water [H2O] Company of Alna).  Only jesting of course.

As for color, I know I remember from the books seeing it light background with dark lettering.  But we have a long way to go before we have to worry about color.

Stewart Rhine replied:
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There are photos and drawings of the tank cars in a couple of the books I have.  Pages 234 and 235 of Two Feet to the Lakes have some good photos.  One shows the cars with new paint and lettering from the early 1920's.  The tank color is aluminum (or light gray) and has black lettering.  The same photo appears in Peter Barney's B&SR Freight Car book on page 77.  The wooden frame at the tank base is painted to match the tank.   It makes a nice looking car.

Also in Barney's book are shots of one of the tank cars with a weed sprayer.  It looks good but as Wayne noted, large applications of weed killer cannot be applied without permits and a certified crew.  This is especially true around streams and rivers.

Josh Botting replied:
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I suspect the BEP would frown on the spray of herbacide along the ROW, also that would make our erosion problems which would definatly be in violation of the BEP or DEP standards.

James Patten replied:
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I wasn't thinking of spraying the entire 66' wide ROW, just the track and probably out to the edge of the stone.

To keep the rest of the ROW under control we need one of those chain swinging rail-mounted machines somebody posted a few weeks back.

Stewart Rhine replied:
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James,  Railroads usually just spray the track and go out about 2-3 on either side.  I don't think we can use the tank car for herbacide.  As Wayne and Josh said, there are many issues with large applications of it.  I was only noting that there are photos of the car at Edaville with the spray rack.  It's just part of the cars history.

Bruce Wilson replied:
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As I write this, I am without benefit of any reference materials. Therefore, I'm just going on my recollections (and could very well be wrong), but I do not remember seeing our Socony tank ever in service at Edaville, nor with weed spraying apparatus. The smaller of the two tankers was used by Edaville for spraying, and I believe initially used as a water tender for engine 7 at Edaville in 1947.

I remember seeing our tank laying in the Edaville junkyard at least as far back as the early 1970's, possibly even the late 60's. Its' use at Edaville is a mystery to me.

Stewart Rhine replied:
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Bruce, You may be right - The photo shows a close view of the end of a tank car with the sprayer.  It may be the smaller tank.  I'll have to go back and check the photos again.  The Barney books are a good quick reference for questions like this.

Bruce Wilson replied:
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Agreed, Peter Barney's book on the Bridgton freight cars would be the first one I'd pick up to research how the larger of the two tanks was used.

He's done a nice job in documenting the various cars through his photos and text. It couldn't have been an easy job considering all of the changes these cars went through.

Dave Olszewski replied:
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Quote
Mike, I think we should paint the tank aluminum with black letters.  Looking through the available B&SR photos - it seems to be the most appropriate color.  As you know there are a number of color slides and movies of the B&HR in the 1938-41 era.  These may help identify colors in the latter years of service.  As to the car body, it sounds like we will use WW&F lettering and assign our own number so the "flat" will be painted like the 118.  I will donate paint for the tank to help move the project forward once we get to that point.

It need primer first. If you don't paint primer on it then paint may peel off. Today I painted primer on water tank doors, indoor fuel shed door and pump shed. Then I will paint green on them. Also #103 opened coach car need paint. It looks awful inside. It was ashamed that no body paint it. 

Dave

Dave

Bruce Wilson replied:
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Yesterday I had a chance to look at the tank closely, studying some of the details. There is an interesting pair of patches on the north end of the tank. One patch overlaps another, almost a lap seam. The rivit work securing the patches was carefully done.

The top of the tank dome is an interesting casting in itself. It may have been made before the tank was assembled as a unit. The makers mark is as follows, Harrisburg Foundry & Machine Co. Makers, Harrisburg, PA 1873.

If you look at the raised script on this casting, you will notice that two letters are lost due to the presence of internal (inside the dome) threaded studs. The base of the studs have obliterated one "r" in Harrisburg and the "o" in Foundry.

She's a beauty...

Mike Fox replied:
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Bruce, I too notice the patches but could not find them in any original photos. The patches on the south end are visible in photos of when it was in operation. I suspect it may have come to the B&SR that way because the got it used. Perhaps due to a derailment when it was originally a standard gauge Tank car.
Mike

Steve Klare replied:
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You don't think maybe Exxon-Mobil would gripe SOCONY appearing on the tank car, right? It is one of the companies they were formed from.

I'm not  a very informed B&SR guy (more to my shame as Maine Two-Foot freak). Can anybody give a little history of why these cars were built and how they were used?

It's kind of surprising that they were the only two-foot tank cars. It's not hard to imagine them being pretty useful. Didn't anybody in  two foot country ever need a couple of thousand gallons of anything liquid?

Mike Fox replied:
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Steve, I'll give you what I know off the top of my head. Anyone can add or correct me.
The Tank we acquired was built originally as a tank car, Standard gauge. In 1904, it was placed onto a flat car and put in service hauling heating oil from Bridgton Junction to Bridgton. I think I read that Standard Oil company of New York bought the tank and the railroad put it on the car. Perhaps over time the tank became property of the railroad. The car was loaded and I think unloaded in the same fashion that a lot of things were handled back then, by hand. There was a hand pump and it took about an hour to fill or empty the tank.
Around 1920, a second and smaller tank car was commisioned. Oil business must have been good. Sometime soon after, the original car under the larger tank wore out and was replaced with another. So the car kind of wound up with 2 numbers. 14/21 or was it 22. Darn memory.
Now, it is my belief that the patches thjat are on the tank were put on prior to the arrival at B&SR. Possibly from a derailment on a standard gauge line someplace. I know those cars never tipped over on the Bridgton line.
Mike

James Patten replied:
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If Exxon-Mobil decides to gripe about SOCONY, they can start with MNGRR, who has the other tank and that's what's painted on it.  If they give them a hard time, then we'll paint something else on the tank.

It doesn't really surprise me that no other 2-foot gauge railroad had a tank car.  Most of the others went to really rural areas.

Wayne Laepple replied:
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I'm sort of surprised the B&SR was hauling heating oil. I would have expected gasoline. The Newport & Sherman's Valley RR down here in Pennsylvania had a pair of 3-foot gauge tank cars they used to haul gasoline and kerosene. The cars were loaded by gravity. The standard gauge tank car was placed on an elevated track for that purpose. I'm not certain, but I believe they were unloaded the same way. They were in service up until the final train ran in 1939. The East Broad Top Railroad also had a tank car for hauling gasoline. It's similar to the B&SR car, in that it's a standard gauge tank on a narrow gauge flatcar. It was built in 1936 and was a 6,000 gallon tank.

Steve Klare replied:
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Maybe you could paint SONOMA on it and fill it with cheap wine!

I'm still kind of surprised that nobody in Strong, Phillips, the sawmills at Redington, Rangeley (those big hotels), Kingfield, the soldiers home at Togus or the slate mines at Monson Village needed bulk kerosene, heating oil or gasoline, but I guess if they had there would have been a lot more of them.

I wonder if the "tank cars" on the other lines were sometimes boxcars full of barrels and steel drums...

It's 1905 and a tank car full of kerosene shows up in Farmington on the Maine Central, and they need it to light the lamps up at the Rangeley Lake House...

Now what?

dwight winkley replied:
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Read in a book that the two tank cars could carry the load of one standard gage car. So they always operated together.

dwight

DaleR replied:
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jason's comment about using new, not current, grant money to repair the tank made me think that mobil may give us some money for it. i believe they value their history. if anyone on this list knows a local mobil dealer that may be the best place to start. a call or visit to the big distributor in damariscotta might work too, they have a double name i cant recall. dale reynolds, pendleton sc

Mike Fox replied:
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Nice Idea Dale. Maybe if someone researched it a little. Got it to Corporate when we are ready to start on it, It might work in our favor.
Mike

James Patten replied:
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The Mobil company in Damariscotta may be Colby & Gale.  I drive by their gas station in town all the time, but of course I can't remember what the sign says.

elecuyer replied:
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I was thinking the same thing regarding funding, myself. Maybe Exxon/Mobil gives grants? I'll do some Googling and see what I come up with.

-Ed Lecuyer

elecuyer replied:
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Looks like ExxonMobil does do some grants, etc. I sent them an email looking for more information, contacts, forms, etc. - since it appears that those items aren't available without asking, first.

DaleR replied:
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thanks james, that was it. was hoping  someone knows mr. colby or mr. gale and could explain our needs and get them to come up with some help. or obviously another mobil dealer on the wwandf route. as a retiree from exxon i am familiar with many of their grants, they have provided about $10,000 to us so far via matching money and paying for my work at the museum. however, all of this has to be for education, not fixing up historic mobil stuff. so that's why i suggested going thru a dealer. dale

Dave Wilson replied:
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Hi Guys.  Just some general thoughts on the tank car before the painting begins.  I think the exterior skin repairs should be made with flush patches if possible.  While riveted patches might be the way the B&SR or even the WW&F would have repaired the tank, we as a museum group should not be looking to add our own visible imprint.  For this reason I believe the repairs should be as invisible as possible.  If the bottom of the tank is found to be too thin (I believe this came up some where in the discussion) for structural repair without replacing hugh amounts of steel, perhaps some sort of liner could be fitted inside that would allow functional use, but would maintain the exterior appearance.  What ever is finally decided upon, I'm sure most people will agree that our repairs shouldn't alter the exterior profile of a historic piece.

Dave Wilson

Mike Fox replied:
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Dave,
I think the talk is now when repairs are made, they will be welded and in such a way as not to disturb the rivets or original patches unless necessary. The weld could then be ground flush when done and paint would cover them well.
As for the inside, perhaps a coat of epoxy like what was done to the water tower tank might be a good idea to preserve the tank further. This is still in the planning stages of repair so it could be a while ( a year or more) before enough time before things actually start happening.
Mike

2039
Archives (Museum) / National Narrow Gauge Convention
« on: December 13, 2008, 07:07:35 PM »
MODERATORS NOTE:
National Narrow Gauge Convention has been converted from the pre-July 2008 WW&F Discussion Forum.
Some formatting may have been removed or modified from the original postings that appear quoted in this topic.
Information contained within this post may be superseded by more recent postings and conversations.

Allan Fisher wrote:
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So far, the narrow gauge convention has exceeded all of our expectations.

On Tuesday, we had 46 passengers,

On Wednesday, we had 140 passengers, and ran one subsidized special freight train.

The Museum Store has gross revenue for the first two days of over $6000!

We have three new members so far - (we need to do more on this)

All of the discussion about the museum at the Convention from those who have already visited is highly favorable.

From discussions we have overheard, we should get most of the rest of the convention to visit us between now and Sunday Afternoon. If you look at the numbers above - we could get over 1300 more visitors in the next four days.

Let's be ready for them, and be sure that their expectations are not only met , but exceeded.

Joe Fox replied:
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Thanks Allan, that is great news. Wish I could have been at the museum this past week, however, I couldn't because I have to go to school today. Oh well,

Joe

Josh Botting replied:
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Allen,

How does this compare to a typical weekend?

Also Stewart was on the news tonight, channel 8, WMTW.  The convention was mentioned, but only the model RRing was covered.

Dave Olszewski replied:
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Thanks for posts news.  I hope more people will come there this week and have more members. Did anyone buy old ties there yet? I will come there tomorrow after work. Have a good day!

Dave

Allan Fisher replied:
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I would say an average weekend day in the summer results in $400 in ticket sales and $600 in museum store sales.

And - all the tie stubs - no matter what length or even if they are just two sided - are spoken for - it is just a matter of gathering them up from along the right of way and placing them somewhere at Sheepscot that a trailer can get to.

We have already received over $150 for tie stubs, and I would guess with what is eft at Sheepscot and along the right of way, we can make another $200 from sales of tie stubs. And this buyer wants them from future years also.

The gathering of tie stubs should NOT interfere with cropping and redrilling of rail for Fall Work Weekend.

Allan Fisher replied:
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Today - Thursday, we handled 204 revenue passengers, and gross receipts were $3500.

One new member.

Joe Fox replied:
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Thanks Allan,

That is great news. Thanks for keeping us informed.

Joe

Josh Botting replied:
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Thanks allen for the update.

Glad to hear it is going well.  Thanks to all of th voulenteers who have made this event a sucess.

Allan Fisher replied:
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Today's (Friday- Aug 31) ridership and revenue.

138 revenue passengers were carried.

Gross revenue at Sheepscot (Not counting table sales at the Convention) is $2265.

Dave Olszewski replied:
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Hi Allen,

Thanks for updates. It seen they make almost $13,000.00 in one week before today. I was suprised to see they have few new members. Tie stubs are still on small car at end of track and wait for someone to buy them. We should put small "for sale sign" on them and let them know we are selling them.

Maybe next year would be better if water tank is done and have new restroom. I know many people like to see them fill water on tank from it.

Thanks to many volunters for hard work and run them. I wish I come there often but I have to go to work. I will come there tomorrow.

Dave

Allan Fisher replied:
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Saturday results -

146 paid passengers

Gross receipts - at Sheepscot - $3560

Friday & Saturday at NG Convention  -$1865

Joe Fox replied:
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Strange that the museum made more money on location, rather than at the convention. Thanks for the update Allan. One trip on Saturday was full, of course, that was only 103 and Coach 3. I believe it was the 3 o'clock trip, but I am not exactly sure. Due to a few late passengers, an extra 5 o'clock trip was run, but the train crew didn't mind.

Joe

James Patten replied:
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I was at the Convention all day Thursday (manning our table), for an evening clinic on Friday, and all day Saturday, attending most of the evening awards ceremony.  I have to say it was a fabulous Convention, although I only have two to compare it to.  However everyone else was saying it was fabulous as well.

Everyone I talked to raved about the WW&F Museum.  This is something we should all be justifiably proud of - and spur us on to new excellence.

The Convention table, on Thursday anyway, was doing a booming business in the Gus Pratt video.   However it doesn't surprise me that the Museum had better sales than our Convention table, as people were probably in a spending mood once they sampled our excellence.

I asked Gary Kohler (one of the Convention organizers) when it would next come to Portland (Maine).  Gary said "Whenever you want to do it," meaning that he did not want to organize again.  I guess it's a huge amount of work.

At the ceremony last night Matt Sharp announced the number of attendees, which if I remember correctly was in the 1700s - a really good figure for an East Coast convention.

Bill Reidy replied:
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It's been great reading about what's happened this past week and seeing how busy it was on Saturday while working on the rail crew.  It sounds like the organizers of the convention did a terrific job, and everyone at the Museum and representing the Museum in Portland did their usual outstanding work presenting the WW&F to the public.

- Bill

Stewart Rhine replied:
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I was at the museum from Sunday, August 26th through Saturday, Sept 1st.  In my 10 years at Sheepscot I have never seen anything like convention week.  Not only did we have hundreds of people at the railroad but some were international visitors.  One day I gave handcar rides to 3 guys from Japan, a man from South Africa and toured another fellow from Germany.  Everyone I saw had a great time, taking many photos.  I was on the special chartered freight train and one of the guests was from Australia.  They had a great time with our run-bys at Alna Center.  Another guy told me that he was having dinner the night before and his friend told him the "No matter what you have planned for tomorrow, cancel it and go the the WW&F!"  In addition volunteers worked on projects all the days I was there.  Visitors were impressed that we were running trains, had people working on the water tank, doing blacksmith work, cooking lunch, and doing car maint.

I was building doors for the water tank in bay 2 and a number of visitors told me that we have "A really great operation"  It is great to hear that from people who have been on alot of railroads throught the years.  Congrats to Matt and everyone who made the convention a success, and thanks to our hard working volunteers who made visitors feel welcome and impressed them with the way we run the railroad.

Joe Fox replied:
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Yes, the one day I was at the museum, Saturday, September 1rst, everybody was very pleased, and happy with the operation, said it was one of the best they have ever seen. I am glad that everybody, including volunteers had fun during the convention. Many 1rst time passengers that I talked to, couldn't believe that we were still expanding the length of the track. They said that they couldn't think of any other railroads off of the top of their head that were rebuilding the railroad little by little, and couldn't wait to visit the museum again sometime in the near future, and even said that they would be sure to keep checking up on the progress on the website updates.

Joe

James Patten replied:
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It's important to remember that very likely most of the convention attendees can be considered to be connoiseurs of narrow gauge railways.  Anyone who's been to any number of these have most likely ridden lots of 3-foot, namely C&T, D&S, Huckleberry, Knott's Berry Farm, Tweetsie, perhaps even the WP&Y.

I'm hoping we picked up a number of new members.

I'm thinking that future such conventions should have an overview of the Maine Two Footer scene.

Stewart Rhine replied:
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Another thing about "convention week" is that it was more like 10 days.  Convention visitors started showing up Sat, Aug. 25th and continued through Mon, Sept 3rd.

I don't know about 9/3 but we had volunteers working on projects the rest of the time.  These are listed in a previous post.  If work was done yesterday it would make 10 straight days of work on the WW&F.  I'm not sure if this has ever happened before but I think it's a VERY impressive record for our museum.  Some of the visitors I spoke to commented on how we were running trains and had volunteers working on projects at Sheepscot.  As James noted, the guests know railroads and have seen many operations.  To hear so many compliments shows that we made an impression on them.

fjknight replied:
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James,

One of the reasons that I built my Sn2 module of the yard as it is today is that I figured it would be good publicity for the museum. As a group the Sn2 Crew plans to attend some of the larger conventions but in the future I expect to have enough modules built so that I can run a smaller modular layout myself. That way we could use it at some of the local model railroad shows along with an info table in support of the museum.

If there is anyone else willing to help let me know.

Frank

Joe Fox replied:
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I would be interested in helping you with it Frank, however, I am unsure of what exactly I can help with, but I would be interested in trying to help you with this project, especially since it was mentioned in a seperate post that the museum wanted a layout to go to train shows with.

Joe

Mike Fox replied:
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Quote
I'm thinking that future such conventions should have an overview of the Maine Two Footer scene.

Sounds like James wants to put on a traveling show! From what I heard on Saturday, everyone was impressed. Especially when you mention that we are 100% volunteer operated.
Mike

fjknight replied:
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Quote
I would be interested in helping you with it Frank, however, I am unsure of what exactly I can help with, but I would be interested in trying to help you with this project, especially since it was mentioned in a seperate post that the museum wanted a layout to go to train shows with.

Joe

Joe,

I would be happy to have your help. Currently I have 2 modules and it would take a minimum of 8 for a running layout. even if you don't feel you can build a module I will need help in setting up and taking down the layout. I will post a link to some pictures once I get them uploaded so that you will get an idea what the modular layout looks like.

Frank

James Patten replied:
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Sounds like James wants to put on a traveling show!

"Hurry hurry hurry! Step right up!  Ladies and Gentlemen see the amazing full sized train travelling on rails that are ONLY two feet apart!  How do they do it!  Come inside and find out their amazing secrets ...."

Stewart Rhine replied:
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There was a large WW&F layout in the main exhibit hall at the Portland Holiday Inn.  I saw it Thursday morning.  The modelers can tell me more but it I think it was HOn2, the table was about 30' by 7' and was towards the center.  It was very well done showing most of the major on line towns.  Zack and I spent some time talking to the builders.  The fellow I spoke to wanted to know about the concrete cattle underpass and track configuration at Whitefield.  The buildings were so good that I knew what town it was before I got close to the table.  We spent about 1/2 hour at the layout.

The contest room had some cool two foot stuff.  There was a large scale model of the Taconet.  It was about 20" long, had sprung trucks, brakes, seats and many other details.  There was also an O scale SR&RL 24 that was just beautiful.  I looked around to see if anyone had an O scale WW&F #6 but didn't find one.  Now that would be a nice model.

James Patten replied:
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There was an additional WW&F layout at the Eastland Hotel, where more layouts were to be found.  Frank Knight, as you read above, had a model of the current Sheepscot yard (without water tower) there as part of a larger layout with several other towns.  Great stuff.

fjknight replied:
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Here is a link to my pictures of the Sn2 Crew's modular layout at the convention including some showing the layout being assembled:
http://www.villagephotos.com/pubbrowse.asp?folder_id=1908426

Here is a link to a short YouTube video showing WW&F #7 running on the layout:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=bR85fKMjiIk

and here is a rail bus:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=BxpMN7e8eSM

Frank

tomc replied:
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Hi,
I came to Maine to go to the convention and see 2 foot trains.  I was so impressed with the WWF on Tuesday that I came back on Wednseday and Friday with my Buddy who loved it also.  You have done a Great job and the Volunteers were so kind to us strangers.  I spent heavily in the gift shop to help out.  My buddy spent also. #10 sure was a star!!

Tom C.
_________________
Later;
tom_srclry_com

Allan Fisher replied:
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The final results are in for WW&F revenue during the National NG Convention.

766 Revenue passengers paid $4,093.

Store revenue - at NG Convention - $2,179
at Sheepscot        - $10,262

15 New Members, 1 New Life Member - $750

Cash Donations - $455

Food Sales Profit - $107

A Number of In-Kind Gifts from Vendors to be sold at the Museum Store.

Total of all of the above -  over $18,000 total revenue.

Mike Fox replied:
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Thank you Tom C. Every little bit helps. Glad you enjoyed yourself. Hope you can make a return visit when #9 gets returned to service. This will be a great accomplishment as it is the only Maine built Two Foot locomotive in existence.
Mike

tomc replied:
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Mike.
I will be back.  It is to cool to miss.  I found the Boiler at Bootbay and will definitely want to see #9 in service.  It is nice that all the 2 ft sites are close together for us foamers.  It makes visiting much easier.  I would like to have the time to come out and help during the work sessions but can't find any in my busy schedule yet.  Maybe in a few it will slow down so I can.

Tom C.
_________________
Later;
tom_srclry_com

Stewart Rhine replied:
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Frank,  I wanted to thank you for posting the links.  Great shots and video.  My only time at the convention was Thursday morning and the exhibit and conference rooms were very crowded.   I didn't get over to the Eastland Hotel as Zack and I had to get back to Sheepscot by 12:30.  Thanks for showing me what I missed!  I enjoyed seeing your layout in operation.  Now I know where the newsletter cover photo came from.   My father in law just sent me a photo cd filled with other great convention shots.  There was so much to see.  It sure was a good time for narrow gauge fans.  As has been noted, it was also a very productive time for the WW&F.

Stewart

fjknight replied:
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Stewart,

You are very welcome. It was hard to see everything. Even though I was there everyday between assembling and manning the modular layout and helping out with the clinics there were whole areas that I just caught in passing. It was exhausting but I haven't had so much fun at anything since last Fall's work weekend.

Frank

2040
Archives (Museum) / New Video
« on: December 13, 2008, 07:04:16 PM »
MODERATORS NOTE:
New Video has been converted from the pre-July 2008 WW&F Discussion Forum.
Some formatting may have been removed or modified from the original postings that appear quoted in this topic.
Information contained within this post may be superseded by more recent postings and conversations.

Joe Fox wrote:
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Hi everybody,

I just saw this, and figured I had to share it with you all. Here is a new video of the W, W, & F Ry.

http://www.timelesstrainsandthings.com/default.htm

I remember these guys, and they sure were a lot of fun to talk to, and I am glad that they have shared their video on YouTube, otherwise, I never would have known about this being out yet.

Joe

elecuyer replied:
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I'd buy that video to see "a ride behind WW&F No. 10 from Sheepscot Station to Albion Center and back."

Oops.

-Ed Lecuyer

Steve Zuppa replied:
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I'm curious. Does the sale of this video benefit the museum in any way? If it doesn't, then that means that someone else is profitting from all our hard work and why anyone who LIVES this museum (like all the volunteers who post here) would pay good money for something they can participate in is beyond me.
_________________
"Keep to the code!"
Capt. Jack Sparrow

elecuyer replied:
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Depending on how good it is, it might be an item to stock/resell in the museum store. Visitors will sometimes want a video memento of their experience.

However, I question the overall product's quality given the text printed on the DVD sleeve. I'm no grammar whiz, but there's at least one incomplete sentence, as well as the factual error I mentioned above.

Then again, there is no such thing as bad publicity.

-Ed Lecuyer

Steve Zuppa replied:
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Are you serious? Any nitwit with a video camera can shoot footage of our operation, without any oversight, portraying us in any light that they see fit, and you'd support that? We have people in our own organiztion that want only to portray us in the most favorable terms and donate 100 percent of the revenues to us. Now, understandably, we have authors with whom we have the same buy/resell arrangements but that's only because none of us are authors. To promote unauthorized representations of our organization from video producers is, in my humble opinion, both shortsighted and foolish.
_________________
"Keep to the code!"
Capt. Jack Sparrow

Steve Smith replied:
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Hey Steve, my better half has a great suggestion. Let's buy a copy of that video, make pirate copies and sell them in the gift shop! With Albion chenged to Alna, of course.

KIDDING, KIDDING! But this situation makes me wonder whether some railroad museums have an official policy against videos, etc. of the kind in question being filmed on their property, and if so, how much luck do they have in enforcing it.

In any case, lets hope the thing does us some good by informing potential fans about us, inducing others to come ride our railroad, and MAYBE even persuading somebody to come do some work!

Small Steve

Joe Fox replied:
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Hi all,

Allan, or someobdy else, knew the guy was coming to make a video of the museum and sell it. I don't know much more than that. He interviewed Allan to talk about the museum/original railroad. He also video taped me and the guy with the camera doing some track work. He also video taped Jason working in the machine shop. Talk to you guys later.

Joe

elecuyer replied:
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As I see it, there are three possible videographers that may want to tape our operation:

1. The typical visitor/tourist for personal use. (See other video discussion.) This also may include railfans for their own collections.

2. Pro/Semi-Pro video producers who are doing filming for commercial video and/or broadcast. (Ex.: this video, as well as Steven H's. excellent work.)

3. Filmmakers who want to "rent the railroad" for shots, etc. (as was done recently at the Valley RR in CT for an upcoming release in the "Indiana Jones" series.)

It seems to me that we may want to establish a policy for #2 & #3 - if we don't have one already in place. I have heard of plenty of horror stories (via the RYPN board) of museums getting shafted by #3 filmmakers.

Maybe Steven H. should jump in on this discussion.

-Ed Lecuyer

Josh Botting replied:
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How about shooting #2 & #3 on sight, w/o permision?  Or perhaps charging royalty fees on the viedos?

Mike Fox replied:
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I am not sure but someone might be jumping the gun here. Until Allan says for sure, I would like to assume that this was made with permission through Allan and the museum could benifit from it in some way. Ed said it before, there is no such thing as bad publicity. Well there actually is but in a form like this, I don't see it as harmfull.
Mike

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