Messages

2011

Museum Discussion / WW&F Hopper Car Plans *PIC*

« on: September 15, 2010, 08:37:26 PM »

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WW&F Hopper Car Plans *PIC* has been converted from the pre-July 2008 WW&F Discussion Forum.
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Stephen Hussar wrote:

These plans for a WW&F Hopper Car, created in 1901 were sent by Stewart Rhine. I created the "blueprint" look to make the lines and dimensions more apparent. Since this reduced image is only 278kb I thought it would be ok to post it here.

Ira Schreiber replied:

Thanks alot for posting the plans.
Can they be easily modified to show the dimensions in a readable form?
I am intrigued by the car and would like to see the 12"=1' version.
Ira

Joe Fox replied:

That looks much like a gondola. That would be great, if we could build a hopper car that looks like a gondola, witht the dump peice under the car. I like the looks of that blue print.

Joe

2012

Archives (Museum) / Did Free Press have articles about WW&F Railway?

« on: September 15, 2010, 08:36:09 PM »

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Did Free Press have articles about WW&F Railway? has been converted from the pre-July 2008 WW&F Discussion Forum.
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Dave Olszewski wrote:

Hi everyone,

I never find articles on Free Press about WW&F Railway. I only see many articles about Maine Eastern RR there. Did you see any articles on local paper or Free Press? I was too busy to read local newspaper.

Dave

James Patten replied:

Lincoln County News had photographs of the Halloween trains.

Stewart Rhine replied:

Dave,  The press releases do go out.  Reporter Paul Cunningham has written a number of articles on the WW&F in the last few years.  He even had a full page spread when the first steam powered passenger train ran to Alna Center.

Stewart

Josh Botting replied:

Does anyone have the pictures of the Halloween trains?

Joe Fox replied:

What pictures are you talking about Josh? The ones on NERAIL, or photos that other people took?

Joe

Josh Botting replied:

Joe,
The pictures that were in the paper,.

Joe Fox replied:

Oh, I would like to see those sometime or another then, since I don't get the paper that you guys get. I have just been told I can go down to the museum again on the 18th if all goes well. Talk to you guys later.

Joe

Josh Botting replied:

Joe,

I have aquired the Lincoln County News pictures, I will find the time to scan them and send them on to you, one of them is you....jkb

Joe Fox replied:

That would be great Josh. Instead of emailing me just the photos, is it possible you could email me the entire article, so that I can show it to my social studies teacher? Thanks.

Joe

Josh Botting replied:

Joe,
No article with the pictures, only a caption under the picture.

will scan when I find time.

Joe Fox replied:

Ok Josh, thanks.

Joe

2013

Archives (Museum) / Alna Center in 1999

« on: September 15, 2010, 08:35:17 PM »

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Alna Center in 1999 has been converted from the pre-July 2008 WW&F Discussion Forum.
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Stephen Hussar wrote:

All, this photo was sent by Stewart Rhine and taken in Alna Center back in 1999. You are standing with your back to the south end of the field, on the ROW, looking north.
The switchstand for the north run-around is approximately in the center of the picture where the tree line is. Thanks, Stewart & Cindy!

Stewart Rhine replied:

I took this photo on my second trip to AC.  My first time was in 1998 when I hiked from Sheepscot with Bruce Wilson.  It was easier in October of 1999 because Mike Trask had cut his driveway through and I drove down to the grade.  This was also the day I found the remains of the original station.  Zack had told me he had seen some timbers and wood up there.  They were in the woods across the grade from where the station originally sat.  I found a 6 foot section of the interior wall and  decided to save it.  I the marked the boards in the order they were nailed and then took the wall apart.  I brought everything back to Sheepscot and cleaned off the boards.  I found original W&Q red stain and the Carson Peck era gray paint over top of it.  I re-assembled the boards as they were and that section is now inside the new Alna Center station.

Stewart

Stephen Hussar replied:

This image from 2004 - was taken the day Stewart brought the reassembled wall back to Alna Center.

Stewart Rhine replied:

You can't see it in the photo but there are old names and dates written on, or carved into the boards.  The paper at the top left  is a list of the ones I could read.  One of the dates is 1917.

Stewart

Stephen Hussar replied:

Ran across this picture from earlier in 2004.


_________________
*                *                    *                   *
"Give me enough Swedes and whiskey and I'll build a railroad to Hell."
- James J. Hill

Stewart Rhine replied:

Oh yes,  back when we were still building the railroad uphill!  It was upgrade from Sutters all the way to Alna summit.

Good times...

Stephen Hussar replied:

Turning the knob on the "way-back machine" just a little bit further, this was No 10's first test-run up to Alna Center after the re-build. What a great day


_________________
*                *                    *                   *
"Give me enough Swedes and whiskey and I'll build a railroad to Hell."
- James J. Hill

Bill Sample replied:

Seeing the Alna Center Station in its "underwear" is interesting- it shows that the building was substantially constructed in a time-honored manner, not slapped together with cheap materials.  Like the trackage in front of it, I'm sure it is more substantially built than its ancestor.

Stewart Rhine replied:

Bill,  FYI - Zack, Gary R. and crew built the AC station using available measurements and information from the original structure.  The original station lasted into the 1970's and was photographed/measured by a number of people.  Zack used real 6X6 corner boards and 2X6 wall studs and top plates for the framing.  I searched the antique shops and found an original door at Elmers that had the correct four-panel construction.  I cleaned and painted it about a year before the station was built.  The WW&F used a unique four-panel door with the lower panels being very short.  These were used on the (Wiscasset to Albion) shelters and agent stations.

Another tough part was the 8 over 8 windows.  I tried to find antique sashes but couldn't come up with any.  Zack discovered that the company was still in business that made the original windows for the W&Q in 1894-95.   That company made the new sashes for the station.  It's cool to think that the re-born railroad is once again a customer of the original company that supplied the W&Q.

gordon cook replied:

Here's a shot of the floor of the AC Station on May 8, 2004, before the walls went up:


And, from the first day the rebuilt 10 was in service, July 10, 2004, remember the original color of the inside of the cab?

petecosmob replied:

I SHOULD remember as I got a ride in it both before and after,......what was it? And what is it now?

gordon cook replied:

As you can see in the picture, the cab interior was painted a shade of green to match the original color. It is now  mostly soot black. A lot of the ceiling got an instant paint job when the lubricator decided to  spit back when it was being filled late one day.

PCo622 replied:

I remember priming and painting that roof just in time for the Pleasure Island event.  Sometimes my arm still hurts from painting upside down.

2014

Archives (Museum) / Why a WYE

« on: September 15, 2010, 08:32:34 PM »

MODERATORS NOTE:
Why a WYE has been converted from the pre-July 2008 WW&F Discussion Forum.
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Ira Schreiber wrote:

I thought you might like to see the WYE built by the Bucksgahuda & Western in PA.
Pretty compact but a lot of fill was required.

http://home.alltel.net/bandw/
Click on WYE

Ira in CO

Mike Fox replied:

Ira,
That is ok for them but it would take a lot more room for us to construct a wye. Their cars look toy like and probably can handle a sharper radius. For instance, look at the caboose or hopper car pictures they have and the wheels are a lot smaller. Ours are larger and set up into the car so if they were to take a corner like that the wheels would hit on the beams or the coupler box.
Mike

Stewart Rhine replied:

Ira,  A "North end" wye would be good once there is a turntable at Sheepscot.  It would be great to have the engine facing forward in both directions but the biggest problem is land.  You need alot of land to construct a wye that would suit our motive power and rolling stock.  As Mike said our cars would have a longer turning radius.  Now, if we decide that we will only turn the engines it still doesn't change things.  As you know, a Forney is a rigid frame critter.  Turning number 9 would take a good sized wye.  Wayne could tell the correct size and radius. When we build a number 7 (of course I'd like to see a number 6!) that adds a pony trucked engine to the stable.  I don't know where we would have enough room to build a correct sized wye around Head Tide / 218 unless we got alot more land.   I'm not saying that I don't want to see it happen but it would be costly.

Stewart

Wayne Laepple replied:

I agree that a wye at the north end (Route 218) would be cool, but I'm not certain there is enough land up there to build one. Just by my back-of-the- envelope calculations, it would require a piece of land at least 150 by 150 feet adjacent to the right of way, based on a 20 degree curve (287-foot radius) on both legs of the wye. Unfortunately, the land on the east side of the right of way adjacent to Route 218 would require a large amount of fill before track could be laid. A turntable at that end, on the other hand, could be constructed within the confines of our 66-foot right of way

Mike Fox replied:

I think a Turntable or a wye should only be installed at the north end when we have reached as far as possible. I myself think an armstrong turntable would look awfull nice next to 218.
Mike

Ira Schreiber replied:

I guess that the wye should be constructed at Weeks Mills, when we get there.
The more I think about it, the less I like the idea, especially at Rte.218. Just takes up too much room. Maybe when we get to Head Tide there we be enough land for a wye.
Ira Schreiber

Stewart Rhine replied:

Mike has a good point that a turntable at 218 would work (and look) great.  A wooden bridge, patterned after the one at Wiscasset would give visitors an idea of what the WW&F used.  We would only have to build an approach lead and set a center bearing.  The land around it just has to smoothed out enough for the crew to safely walk while pushing the bridge.  A turntable with this plan could be moved once the line is extended farther North.  As to building a WYE anywhere near the Head Tide area, the need fill would probably not be allowed by DEP.

Once we get to Route 218 we must make a decision such as:(1) crossing 218 and continuing North, (2) stoping there and then building South from Sheepscot, (3) stop building the mainline of the railroad, or (4) try another plan ... First a few facts - The state and FRA would require extensive warning signals with overhead flashers for the 218 crossing.  There would also have to be an early warning remote flasher at the top of the hill, South of the crossing.  This crossing would probably cost over $450,000.  There was one like this built on the Maryland Midland when I was there in 1992 and it cost over $125,000 back then.  Without state or federal grant monies we could not afford the crossing.

If we do not build the crossing, it does not stop us from building track on the other side of 218.  I think we should build on the available land up into the Head Tide cut.  We could then run track car trips on this scenic part of the line.  Case in point - The East Broad Top has recently cleared about a half mile of it's original mainline South of the Rock Hill Furnace yard.  No train has been on this trackage since 1956 but the railroad now gives track car rides for $2or $3.  People loaded onto the cars at a location down in the yard, so the cars did not have to cross the main road.  The last time Cindy and I were there, about as many people rode the track car trips as rode the steam train.  This is something we could offer our visitors as an added experience.  I think it would do well.

Stewart

Ira Schreiber replied:

Based on my initial research, the State of Maine would control the crossing throught the highway department. Only cross bucks are required for a minimal operation such as ours. Hand flagging would be highly desired.
When any form of automatic device is used, i.e. lights, bells, gates, the FRA steps in. If there are none of these, it is only between us and the State of Maine.
I have the documention outling this, from both the State of Maine and FRA.
Ira Schreiber

John McNamara replied:

I'm pretty sure that to avoid FRA juristiction, your railroad must be:

1. "Insular," i.e. not connected to, or within x feet, of another railway,

2. Not crossing a public hroad.

At present, the WW&F meets both of these requirements. However, crossing either Cross Road or Route 218, regardless of whether crossbucks or flashers were used, would put us under FRA juristiction.

Stewart Rhine replied:

John and Ira,  Thanks for the input.  I know the state and FRA would be involved with any type of crossing at Rt 218.  They would also be involved if we cross the Cross Road.   Let's use the EBT as an example.  They  cross some town roads, and are only using cross bucks.  Of course their track was never lifted which gives them a grandfathered crossing.  As John said they are insular as they do not connect with a common carrier railroad.  They are however under FRA rules for track and motive power.  Their Shade Gap Branch was recently extended (for the streetcar museum) down to - but not across Rt 522. That road, like 218 is a higher speed route with truck traffic.   I was told that the crossing would have cost close to $450.000 with the flashers and early warning system.  This is an instance where an insular railroad would have been required to build a highly protected crossing.  The streetcar museum informed the state that the crews would have stopped and proceeded with a flagman but it did not change things.  This is because of the speed limit and the truck traffic on 522.  As you know 218 has alot of gravel trucks on it every day.  This fact would put our 218 crossing in the same class as the EBT's proposed Shade Gap Branch crossing.

Stewart

Ira Schreiber replied:

Yes, John is correct, but the regulation applies only to the crossing, as I understand it.
That said, it would require alot of $$, which we don't have, and a moot point for at least two years. I am in favor of going north, but only if we can overcome the $$. There MAY be government funds to underwrite the bulk of the cost, but we have several years to research out that part.
On another note, I, too, like the idea of jumping 218 and building the next section.
Will the Trout(Carlson)Brook trestle be an exact replica of the original quarter truss?. If so, material should start to be gathered up. I know we have some large bridge timbers and these may be the start.
Ira Schreiber

John McNamara replied:

Yes, the crossing is what's important, but my understanding is that once you have a crossing over a public road, you are an FRA railroad. As such, there are various procedures that have to be followed throughout your railroad, such as documented periodic inspections of the equipment, documented crew qualifications, etc. Eventual FRA compliance is part of the Long Range Plan, per the last paragraph of the "Railroad Operations" section (page 6).

ETSRRCo replied:

I'm working for an FRA railroad now. I got my rule books last weekend. All six of them.. I swear one is over 100 pages. That isn't that bad except for the fact that you must have them on you at all times while on the railroad. You can get suspended for that.  Would the train have to be equipped with an automatic train braking system (aka air brakes)? I know the coach would be OOS right away because it has no brakes at all (unless hand brakes have been installed). Rumors are floating around that in a few years it wont matter. All railroads will be under FRA. So do yourselves a favor and get as close as you can as soon as possible. If anything it will make you look better in their eyes if you volunteer to become FRA. Also the gentlemen above was correct in saying that if you connect with or are 60ft from an FRA railroad you fall under FRA. However there are ways around that as well if you are say a plant or industrial railroad operating on your own property. Bottom line is if you touch the road "Big Brother" steps in and it gets really expensive. From what I have been told about crossing all of your estimates are low. You must take into consideration that you have to rip up the road, install track, electronic circuits, heavy rail, signals with gates, signal boxes, and replace the road. The railroad has to pay for all of that including the road repairs. Your looking in the $400K-$500K range after you factor in having to pay someone to do it all cause volunteers can't do that and the road will more then likely have to be back in service the same day or the next.

-Eric

John McNamara replied:

I agree with Eric; it would take a lot of money to build a suitable crossing. I guess that's what is so attractive about Stewart's suggestion of continuing on the other side with a seperate piece of railroad where one would run just a railcar.

How about this bizarre idea - imagine a railcar that is a Model T equipped as a hi-rail vehicle. You operate it on rails from Alna Center to 218, crank down the rubber tires, and convert back to rail operation on the other side. Of course it would have to be licensed for highway use.

Having hi-rail capability would also enable one to change direction easily by simply having a crossing at each end of the run where you could lower the tires, perform a K-turn, and re-rail.

I'm kidding, I'm kidding!  

Wayne Laepple replied:

Here's something else to consider: by the time the rails reach the vicinity of Route 218, the line will be around 3.5 miles long. That will be more than enough railroad to maintain, believe me. It's great fun and very exciting to build new track, but when it comes to changing out defective ties, raising joints, cutting brush, and all the other maintenance that comes with owning and opertaing a railroad, you'll find that just isn't as much fun. Just ask the "regulars" who are trying now to maintain the 2 miles we currently have.

As far as building a crossing over Route 218, who among us wants to get out there with a flag and try to stop a tri-axle loaded with gravel? I've flagged traffic on major highways, and you are very vulnerable. I've had many close calls, had beer cans (empty and full) thrown at me, been clipped by a side mirror, and had to leap into the ditch more than once! It just isn't worth it. And if a loaded tri-axle and our train tangle, the tri-axle will win! Even with gates and lights, such a crossing would be not be completely safe.

Stephen Hussar replied:

But...
By the time the railroad reaches Rt.218, the possibility exists that the membership will have doubled....

Mike Fox replied:

Stewarts Idea is a good one. Ride north on the train, get off at 218, walk across 218 and pump your way to end of track, (or ride a replica railcar), while the engine is turned and heards south. Then, one could take their time, probably 1.5 hrs for the next train by then, and explore the grade and Headtide cut. Even walk up to the church from the rails.
Mike

Stewart Rhine replied:

Dave,  You bring up a good point which I forgot to mention in the previous post.  The Brookville and small work flats would be taken up to the new area.  Once the remaining trees are cut off of the grade, the area where it approaches 218 would be a staging area for track materials.  We would start building the track about 90 feet in from the road.  A truck and trailer could back right onto the grade to unload ties and rail.

Also, a good portion of the grade is right next to 218.  There are a couple of pull-offs between the road and grade where ties could be unloaded from a truck to a waiting work flat or placed right onto the grade after it has been graded.  We may even be able to do this without the Brookville since everything would be arriving by truck.   I don't remember the grade in this section but the crew would be able to push any work flat with ties or rail.  The ballast would be the only problem - unless we have some type of small ballast car by then we would have to use tip cars or bring up one of our flat cars which is alot more work.

Another possibility is to spread the stone on the grade before placing ties and rail.  If this was done with a Bobcat, etc. then the grade would be all set for track laying.  Once the rails are down, stone is filled in around the ties with whatever car we use.  At least we would be hauling and shoveling less stone to complete the ballasting.

Stewart

Stewart Rhine replied:

I have enjoyed the discussion of what we should do when the track reaches 218, and everyone has seen what I think about it.   The thing to remember is before any of this happens we must build a 90 foot bridge at the Trout/Carlton Brook.  Ira asked about it's proposed construction type.  I think we should build a queen post span like the original but hide steel beams in the center, under the running rails.  The abutments cannot be like the original stone-filled wooden cribbing.  The new abutments will probably have to be poured concrete.  DEP will probably require an Environmental Impact Study on the area before anything is built.  As an example - a section of the original Maryland & Penna. RR line was approved for a TEA-21 grant to repair existing bridge abutments and a wash out.  The permit process took about 3 years.  The 5 mile section of the line is insular and the Historical Society runs track cars on it now.  The bridge abutments had to be rebuilt by a DEP approved contractor at a time of year that would not effect the fish.

I hope we have an easier time of it than the M&P Society!
Stewart

John McNamara replied:

Here's a picture of how we did it ten years ago. The ballast was indeed pre-spread. The location shown is just north of what is now Stockford's Crossing. Characters are Jason, John Bradbury, James, Fred, and Harry.

James Patten replied:

Regarding building track down the Mountain, it's my opinion that we should build ALL of it down the mountain before going back and ballasting.  Then the ideal situation would be to ballast from the bottom up, so that gravity will work for us in stopping us, whereas if we work from the top down gravity is working against us.

Regarding John's picture from 10 years ago - before we put any track down I remember putting ballast down on the ground using someone's dump body truck.  It wasn't your standard dump truck, because this had a home-built shallow wood dump.  We'd fill it with stone at Sheepscot, back all the way down to the end, and the truck would start dumping.

That was the only time we did it that way.  After that when we started going around the curve, we tried preballasting using the little tip car and temp track.  It was a slow way to do it, and rather awkward too.  Once we got beyond the curve we just put ties on the bare ground and ballasted afterward.

Dave Buczkowski replied:

Which brings up another question, won't we need a flat car and locomotive to lay the rail and ballast it if we skip over 218? Or does someone have a 2 foot hi-rail dump truck?
Dave

John McNamara replied:

For anyone interested in another photo of how we handled ballast in the "bad old days," here is another. This one is from August 1995.  Ballast was shoveled into the wheelbarrow, which was then run up the ramp at the left end of the work flat and dumped. I believe that the cast of characters is Roger Whitney, Frank Paul, Jeff Schumacher, and Jason Lamontagne.

2015

Archives (Museum) / Sept/Oct Newsletter

« on: September 15, 2010, 08:24:07 PM »

MODERATORS NOTE:
Sept/Oct Newsletter has been converted from the pre-July 2008 WW&F Discussion Forum.
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Stewart Rhine wrote:

To John McNamara, Steve Hussar, and everyone who contributed. I received my Sept/Oct issue of the Newsletter on Friday and I got chance to look through it this morning.  Great job as usual!  John - thanks for keeping the publication well rounded with news and history.  Steve's cover photo is SUPER, it would make a great poster.  Cudo's to Steve and to John for having the shot printed in cepia tone format.  I always look forward to getting the newsletter.  I have kept  every one I have received since joining in 1996.  They just get better each year.

Wayne Laepple replied:

Let me chime right in here and second Stewart's motion! For those of us who only get to the railroad a couple of times a year (or less), the newsletter is an essential communication to keep us informed.

It is always a delight to find the newsletter in my mailbox, but this issue tops all the others I've collected and saved over the years. To all who contributed to the newsletter, a hearty well done!

2016

Archives (Museum) / Fundraiser Comments

« on: September 15, 2010, 08:21:57 PM »

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Fundraiser Comments has been converted from the pre-July 2008 WW&F Discussion Forum.
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Allan Fisher wrote:

Life Member Fred Richardson had the following comment on his donation card. "The Museum is operated 100% by volunteers and the remarkable progress made by this group is very commendable indeed. My enthusiastic compliments to the entire team!


Long time member Dr. Morton Schoenberg says "Thanks for all you guys (sic) do! Best Regards!

Charter Member #3, Just Wold, says Good Work Guys! (sic) Great Progress.

At least ten other members have stated "Keep up the good work".

Fundraiser stands at almost $14,000 just ten days after donation letter was mailed!

wwfmuseum replied:

Allan, probably all the fundraiser comments should go into one thread, rather than many seperate ones.  Let's use this thread as the master thread.  If you would put the others into this one, I'll remove the other two.

Thanks, James

Allan Fisher replied:

We are ahead of last year in receipts for fundraiser - now at $15,000 or 35% of goal in 11 days since mailing.

Individual donations are the same or higher than last year - with hardly any lower.

Allan Fisher replied:

Member Cornelius W. Hauck says" I'd help you more but I'm [still] trying to get +or- $300,000 put together to get my D&RGW #318 back up and running. You're doing a great job.

Allan Fisher replied:

As of October 10th, 2 days shy of one month that donation letters were mailed, we have received $33,000 (or 78% of Board goal for 2006 Capital Fund)

Allan Fisher replied:

As of October 14th - fundraiser stands at $35,000 or 83% of goal in 32 days since mailing went out.

Life member John Houghton from California has funded the completion of the Watertank project.

Allan Fisher replied:

As of October 26, the 2006 Annual Capital Fund Drive stands at $37,500, or 89% of the Board of Directors' goal.

Allan Fisher replied:

The 2006 Capital Campaign is over the top as of 11/6/2006, and now sits at over $43,500 with many gifts still due in. (Some of our givers wait until late December or early January for tax reasons.)

Congratulations to all and Happy Holidays!

Stephen Hussar replied:

Allan, that is phenomenal! Thank you for sharing the news.

Allan Fisher replied:

The 2006 Capital Fund Drive has raised $46,500 as of December 27, 2006 - or 111% of the Board's $42,000 goal!

Steam replied:

Hey, if everyone reading this could send in a few dollars more, we could get the total up to $50,000!  How about it, gang?   I'm sending another check tonight!

WE CAN DO THIS!!  Are you with me?

Richard Symmes

Steam replied:

I followed through and sent my "bonus donation" yesterday.  Hopefully we can get that figure up to 50 grand!  Wouldn't that be a great way to begin the new year?

Richard Symmes

Allan Fisher replied:

As of December 31, 2006, the 2006 Capital Funds has received $48,550,
and that doesn't count Richard Symmes additional donation!

So far 339 of our 1097 members have given to the Campaign, so if every one else gives $5 ..............

Stewart Rhine replied:

Allan, Thanks for the update.  I plan on sending in a bit more this month.  You and Richard have a great idea... high ball for $50,000!!

Dana Deering replied:

Allan,

Did you receive the Unum Matching Grant check?  They sent it back in December.

Dana

Steam replied:

How close did we come to raising $50,000?   I would hope we're almost there!!

Come on folks, let's shake those spare quarters out of our pockets or from under the sofa cushions!

Richard Symmes

Allan Fisher replied:

With a check given by Board Member Jason Lamontagne at last weeks board meeting, the 2006 Annual Capital Fund is now over $50,000.  Congratulations to us all.

Steam replied:

All Right!

Way to go everyone!  Thanks Jason!

Richard Symmes

2017

Archives (Worldwide 2ft) / 2007 Wales Trip

« on: September 15, 2010, 08:19:08 PM »

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2007 Wales Trip has been converted from the pre-July 2008 WW&F Discussion Forum.
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James Patten wrote:

Patten Travel Agency (that would be me) is planning a trip to Wales for spring of 2007.  The goal is visit the Tallyllyn, Ffestiniog, and Welsh Highlands lines.  While there's lots more worthy places to visit, this trip is only going to be a week long.  I want to spend a day at each place.

I know Allan Fisher and his wife Ellen are planning a trip there which includes Isle of Man.  Glenn Christiansen and his wife are planning to visit Wales as well.  If we're really good, we can coordinate and descend on them all at the same time.  They won't have any idea what hit them.

My original intent was to leave on Saturday May 19 and return Sunday May 27, leaving Memorial Day for rest and recovery before going back to work.  However something is happening in the area on Sunday May 20 that I'd like to catch, so I'm now struggling with new dates.

The plan is to fly to London (during the day if possible, overnight if given no other choice) and take the train from London to Porthmadog.  I plan to base myself out of Porthmadog for 4 nights.  Tallyllyn is reachable by the train, and the Welsh Highland is reachable by intercity bus.  The Ffestiniog is, of course, going to be a hop, skip, and a jump from whereever I stay.  Then take the train back to London, maybe spend an extra day in London to see the sights ("look kids, there's Parliament...Big Ben...") then fly home.  The goal is to use all public transport, so that I don't have to worry about left-handed driving.

So, all you Welshly-wise people out there - where is a nice, but inexpensive place to stay in Porthmadog?

Approximately how much should I budget for eating each day?

I know that Gordon and John M. have expressed interest.  Is there any other interest?  PTA does all the planning.

Ira Schreiber replied:

Sounds like a great idea.
As a Certified Travel Agent, (yes, I am) I can arrange all travel at the lowest possible prices.
I am with YTB travel and we use Travelocity but get a larger discount, which I will pass on, completely to anyone going.
It would save you alot of hassel, James, as well as money.
Ira

fjknight replied:

I know that Gordon and John M. have expressed interest.  Is there any other interest?  PTA does all the planning.

James,

Yvette and I would be interested. I will be retired before next May so scheduling for us shouldn't be much of an issue.

Frank Knight

Ray Ollier replied:

James

I live about just up the road from Porthmadog, would be happy to advise on where to stay, etc.

Ray Ollier

gordon cook replied:

It's well known that you have to be able to pronounce all the Welsh names correctly to enter. There is a security guard at the border who gives a quiz.
Sorry, just joking. (Just what is the Afon Dwyryd anyway?)
It does help however, to be able to pronounce the name when booking your ticket at the train station. I almost ended up somewhere else instead of Porthmadog, which would have been most interesting.
Aberystwyth stills makes me lythp, but the Vale of Rheidol Railway was spectacular, up the side of a steep valley. See
http://www.steamsafari.com/wales/index.htm
for a nice description of several of the Welsh narrow gauge trains if you haven't seen it before.
I never did get to Tallylyn (wait, count the l's) Talyllyn.
The natives do speak the King's English well, although I thought that Welsh is very interesting whenever I heard it. Mrs. Jones, where I stayed, tried to teach me a little, but it didn't stick in my language-challenged brain.
Anyway, count me in, I have very fond memories of my one visit there and look forward to going back.
Gordon C.

Ira Schreiber replied:

My web site can be directly addressed.
You are certaintly able to make your own arrangements, if you wish. The disadvantage is the loss of group discounts.
Let's see how many we get and I can work up some sample fares.
The earlier booked, generally the cheaper the fare.
The web site is:
http://www.ytbtravel.com/mailroom

Ira Schreiber

James Patten replied:

I need to figure what my costs will actually be before I can say with 100% certainty whether or not I am going.

If group discounts help lower the price of transport, then I am all for it!

I intend to travel on UK rail with a rail pass.

I strongly desire a non-stop trip over the Atlantic.  I am flying out of Boston and have no intention of flying to Newark or Philly or Chicago or some other US destination before hopping the pond.  It seems to me that flights from Boston to England all terminate at Heathrow.

Hey, if we get enough people together maybe we can charter our own flight!

Jon Dandridge replied:

I went to Porthmadog in 1971 as part of a 2 week trip to the UK. As I recall I went Euston to Wolverhampton, changed to a DMU that split at Shrewsbury then I had to change again at Machynlleth (I probably spelt that wrong) for the Aberystwyth train. Things may have changed since then.

At the time I had no trouble just walking around and finding a B&B the day I arrived but things may be different now. It was quite an experience, I remember being woken up the next morning by the landlady giving directions to a man on a ladder outside my window in Welsh. I also got food poisoning eating lunch at a cafe, hopefully the food is better now!

You probably want to travel as light as possible. From Heathrow you can get the Heathrow Express to Paddington which is comfortable (but pricey), but then it's the Tube to Euston which is not great if you have luggage especially at weekday rush hour.

By the way you can check on train schedules and fares using the National Rail web site:

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/

Jon D

gordon cook replied:

My itinerary to Wales started in Paris in the morning, through the Chunnel to London, then on to Porthmadog by 11 PM, on the last train up the coast. I remember going through Oxford and Reading. I had bought a national rail schedule, a book about 3 inches thick, and could plan my travels quite easily that way. Trains were on time, modern, clean and AC'd. The DMU up the coast was the oldest, but still comfortable. The rolling party that got on at Machynellth (SP) was fun too, 4 guys out having a good old time.
This was in 2003. I was in the UK in 2005 again, but I couldn't find the unified schedule book, and had to go to the individual service offices in Waterloo Station to get the schedules for each region.
You can also negotiate when you get to the ticket window, but with a 'queue' behind you anxious to get home I felt it was hard to optimize your travels that way. Although most Brits would never say anything. :>)
A BritRail pass has to be bought in the US, travel agents will sell them to you, and it works pretty well, but you still will need reservations on the busy trains. Ours never got looked at a couple of times, which effectively gives you a free ride for that day.
London and the major cities are very expensive, by the way. Be prepared for US$3.50 small cup of coffee at Starbucks, and $150 and up for a small, OK room in the cheap places. And I hope you don't like ice in your drinks.

Ira Schreiber replied:

The group travel has a few obvious restrictions.
1. All must fly together from and to the trans-Atlantic departure point, i.e. Boston
2. There must be a minimum of 20 people to get the group fare.
3. Seats must be blocked 60-90 days prior to departure.
The air fares are about 25% cheaper from the NYC area than Boston, but majority rules. Coming from Denver, I have no preference.
Ira

Ira Schreiber replied:

I just did a quick check on fares from JFK vs. Boston.
Boston    =$685
JFK         =$477

Flight via Air India, non stop to Heathrow.
No comment on the airline.
Just for comparisons

Ira

James Patten replied:

Air fare from NYC may be cheaper, but for those of us coming from northern or central New England we still have to gget to New York.

Somebody commented that the Welsh trains may not run full schedules during the week in May, but only during the weekend.  I believe our Memorial Day (last Monday in May) is some kind of Bank Holiday?  If so does that mean no public transport is running or businesses are open or is it the other way around?

Ira Schreiber replied:

In order to get group fares, 20 like tickets are required.
Would anyone mind if we opened up this trip to the "Two Footers" group? I would like to see this as an informal type trip, with the group air fare being the incentive.
Activities would be on your own.
Comments?
Ira

James Patten replied:

Don't we need to determine travel dates first?  To me this still seems up in the air.

Ira Schreiber replied:

I was using your proposed dates.
Figure out what you and the rest would like and we will go from there. Remember Thursday travel is generally cheaper than Friday or Saturday for departures from the US.
Ira

James Patten replied:

The Talyllyn will be running 8 trains/day during the "Bank Holiday" of May 26 - 31.  The 27th and 28th is a Tom Rolt Vintage Rally.  I don't know what that is but it sounds suitably exciting.

So this means, I think, that the trip would be leaving the US on the 23rd or 24th, and returning 1 week later.  I'd like to avoid taking too much vacation time (I have to save up for the narrow gauge convention in Portland) so leaving and returning on a Thursday gives me a Friday + weekend to recover.

Ira Schreiber replied:

O.K., I will plug in some new dates and see what comes up. Any others interested, jump in, as we still need 20 for the group fare.
Ira Schreiber

Wayne Laepple replied:

Tom Rolt was the Harry Percival of the Talyllyn Railway.

Bill Sample replied:

According to their website, the Talyllyn Railway's Tom Rolt Rallye hosts visiting steam powered road vehicles, such as steam rollers and steam powered trucks.
As Wayne so perfectly stated, Tom Rolt spearheaded the railway's second coming as a historic operation as Harry did with the W&Q/WW&F.  The Talyllyn was the first such revival anywhere, and the preservation era began there in 1951.  Unlike our experience, when the Talyllyn revival began they at least had their railway intact although in poor shape, and much more of the original equipment roster remained.
I believe Tom Rolt would have been quite impressed with our WW&F revival!
The Talyllyn site is http://www.talyllyn.co.uk

James Patten replied:

I've finally figured out an estimated budget, and it looks like it will be about $2000 to go to Wales (and come back).  That's assuming I can eat for $50 a day, and that the B&B I found for $60/night double occupancy has rooms available.

I forgot to mention to John and Gordon this past weekend, but the Talyllyn sent me some literature: a 2007 timetable, a membership information flyer to the Preservation Society, and "Talyllyn Experience" a flyer pointing out features of interest such as shelters, crossing lights, and a saddle tank shed.  Great stuff and now I can start planning in earnest.

Speaking of the Talyllyn, can anyone out there tell me what the "Quarryman" train is?  Every timetable has one, whether they run 2 trains or 8.

My current plan is:
- depart on overnight flight Thursday May 24, arriving somewhere in the UK on Friday May 25.
- Once we clear customs, get the train to Wales and go to Porthmadog, where we will find our accommodations.
- We'll stay in Porthmadog until Wednesday May 30, whence we will leave for our plane departure point, which will leave the following day.
- This means we'll have Saturday, Sunday, Monday, and Tuesday in Porthmadog.  One day to visit Talyllyn, one to visit Welsh Highland (Caernarvon), one to visit the Ffestiniog, and one to wander Porthmadog (perhaps going to visit The Village in Portmeiron).  It would be nice if the Day of Wandering was Sunday, so that those of us so inclined can go to church, but it may need to be Saturday if we're really beat from the trip over.

So, Glenn and Allan, I hope you will be able to plan your trips around this schedule.  Anyone else on the Forum who is interested in the trip, please let me know.  It would be nice to get Ira's 20 people on one flight so that it could be cheaper, although Patten Travel Agency will only be able to handle the lodging requirements of a few people.

Glenn Christensen replied:

Hi James,

Our travel arrangements will be a bit different, but I see no problem syncing up in Portmadoc given what you've posted so far.  We're probably going to make Portmadoc our base of operations too.  We're thinking of renting a cottage in the surrounding area and hiring a car, but nothing is set in concrete yet.

Let's stay in touch on-line and off as things develop.  But so far, so good.

Best Regards,
Glenn

John McNamara replied:

I have some concerns about the 20 people idea. In addition to finding 20 people who could synchronize their calendars to the desired flights, and coordinating accommodations for 20 people in very small towns, there is a possible problem with the quality of the experience. I know that the WW&F would have difficulty giving a good tour or tours to so large a group other than just transferring them from bus to train and sending them on their way. A smaller group, like between four and eight, could get a much more personalized tour. While I realize that the 20 could be split into smaller groups, that substantially increases the complications and the staffing requirements of the location(s) visited.

Ira Schreiber replied:

John, et al.,
The 20 number is for the group air rate, only.
What participants do after landing is their choice.
It would be extremely easy to split up and head separate ways.
I did the on a 1991 trip to Poland and it worked well.
Ira

Glenn Christensen replied:

Hey Guys,

Guess what just got posted to the ffestiniog's web site!!!!

We couldn't have timed that better if we tried!

Best Regards,
Glenn

Ira Schreiber replied:

OK, WHAT???

Glenn Christensen replied:

Sorry Ira,

The ffestiniong is having their 175th anniversary celebration May 28th, 2007.  That's during the time period we were planning for our trip.

Best Regards,
Glenn

James Patten replied:

WOOT!

Looks like Talyllyn will be on Sunday the 27th and Festiniog will be Monday the 28th.

Incidently, just to keep the group in the loop, I am no longer planning to fly into London.  Instead it looks like a flight into Dublin, with accompanying ferry trip across the sea to Holyhead, is cheaper by nearly $100.

Glenn Christensen replied:

Hi James and Ira,

Thanks for the pointer on Dublin to Holyhead.  We've looked into that routing and we've found it would be cheaper to fly Atlanta to Boston and then via your routing instead of flying Atlanta to Gatwick and then taking the train from London to Birmingham or Manchester.

We're currently planning on booking a car and renting a cottage in the Portmadoc area, but naturally this is all subject to change.

Ira, we're going to look into your suggestion about flying on Thursday.

Thanks for the suggestions guys!

Best Regards,
Glenn

Ira Schreiber replied:

A recent check on air fares shows:
Aer Lingus
Boston/Dublin

$515 r/t

This is not a group fare.
Ira

James Patten replied:

$515 Boston to Dublin is about the price quoted to me.

Incidently it looks like the airline itself quotes a price a tiny bit cheaper than farecompare.com, but the airline's quoted flight goes to Shannon before going to Dublin.  Call me paranoid but I want a direct flight so that the chance of my luggage getting lost is reduced.

John McNamara replied:

As the old joke used to go, "Ah, the marvels of Jet Age: breakfast in New York, lunch in Los Angeles, baggage in Buenos Aires."

Glenn Christensen replied:

Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they AREN'T out to get you!

Best Regards,
Glenn

Jon Dandridge replied:

Incidently, just to keep the group in the loop, I am no longer planning to fly into London.  Instead it looks like a flight into Dublin, with accompanying ferry trip across the sea to Holyhead, is cheaper by nearly $100.

As a bonus you get to avoid going through Heathrow which has to be the worst airport in the world.

Jon

James Patten replied:

John M. and I have purchased our air tickets and made our hotel reservations.  We're flying Aer Lingus, and will be staying at the Tudor Lodge in downtown Porthmadog.

Knock on wood, looks like we'll have plenty of time to make the ferry in Dublin, and plenty of time for train and bus ride to Porthmadog, arriving mid-afternoon, just in time for tea!

fjknight replied:

James,

Yvette and I have decided to make this a longer trip because we have the time and Wales looks like an interesting place. We plan on being there 16 days arriving on Friday May 18th. The only reservations I have made is for the first 4 nights at a B&B just outside the walls of Conwy which has a great looking castle and an old walled town. We are also looking at a Great Little Trains of Wales pass that covers 9 steam railroads.

I've been using a guide book called "The Rough Guide to Wales" and have talked to a few folks that have traveled in the UK and think I'm going to rent a car. I also plan on taking Aer Lingus to Dublin but am still watching FareCompare.com to see if I can catch a better rate.

One interesting thing I've found is the I have a Vonage IP phone and all of my calls to the UK are free. The bad news is that I can't even pronounce half the names in Wales so it can be a bit embarrassing. Email doesn't have the pronunciation problems.

Frank Knight

James Patten replied:

Conwy, Holyhead, and Bangor look like names that can't be tortured into something else too bad.  Porthmadog could have alternate soundings.  And who really knows how the double-l's, w's and d's get pronounced.

James Patten replied:

The trip is still on, but John M. is unable to go.  This means his airline seat is up for grabs.

For the price of transferring the name on the ticket ($90), John is willing to give up the ticket to somebody else.  This ticket has a $600 value.  The flights are Thursday May 24 from Boston (dep. 7:30 PM) with arrival next morning in Dublin, Ireland.  Departure flight is Thursday May 31 from Dublin, Ireland sometime in the early afternoon (time escapes me) with arrival in Boston around 3 PM.

If you want to do the same thing I'm doing (the trip to Wales) I am estimating the cost (excluding airline ticket) at around $1000.  The price may be higher or lower depending on how posh you want your sleeping quarters and whether you're willing to share or not, and this doesn't include anything you may spend on memorabilia.

If you don't wish to accompany me to Wales, you are free to roam around Europe as you want.

If there's any interest please email me.  If you do not have a passport, you will need to get one and time is of the essence here (but there is still time as of the beginning of April).  Otherwise I suppose you can wait until the last day or so to make up your mind, but I'm really hoping for a traveling companion as I do not like traveling alone.

James Patten replied:

FYI, John's air ticket has been taken by my father-in-law, who will be accompanying me to Wales.  Incidentally he grew up in Billerica, Mass., and knew of the narrow gauge that went through there.  My introduction into his life several years ago has since kindled this knowledge into more of an interest than it once was.

Phil Raynes replied:

For a preview of your trip (or for those of us staying behind!), check out this YouTube link to an Easter 2007 trip behind WHR #138, the Mileniwm.  It is 9+ minutes of 2' gauge steam, with numerous distant shots showing the scenery, as well as closeups of the loco, train, and yards (including a shot of the 2-8-2!).  Makes my nose twitch at the thought of smelling the hot grease and steam!  Enjoy!  (Note: if you are on dail-up it may take a while!)

Phil

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y2WVhezCKLo

2018

Archives (Worldwide 2ft) / Completing the Welsh Highland Railway

« on: September 15, 2010, 08:14:36 PM »

MODERATORS NOTE:
Completing the Welsh Highland Railway has been converted from the pre-July 2008 WW&F Discussion Forum.
Some formatting may have been removed or modified from the original postings that appear quoted in this topic.
Information contained within this post may be superseded by more recent postings and conversations.
Stephen Hussar wrote:

Wayne sent this the other day. It is an amazing project.
http://www.bangor.ac.uk/ml/whr/phase4/welcome.htm

One of the more interesting aspects of the project is the standard gauge/narrow gauge "Cambrian" crossing, which is being built with the government's blessing. (can anyone imagine this happening here???)  http://www.bangor.ac.uk/ml/whr/phase4/cambrian.htm

James Patten replied:

I've been following this for several years.

This last phase is being done by the railroad's volunteers.  The first few phases were done by contractors.  The volunteer portion is something like 10 or 15 miles in 5 or 6 years.

I think they literally won the lottery for money.

Stewart Rhine replied:

I wonder if they will use a ball signal to protect the crossing!

Stephen Hussar replied:

"Design and planning for the new crossing has been done over a period of years, at no cost to the railway, by a team of specialist railway engineers led by David Bateman. The crossing will be automatically controlled by signal lights on both railways."

Glenn Christensen replied:

Hi James,

I believe you are thinking of the Millenium grant the WHR received to rebuild the line back to Rhydd Ddu.  As I recall, those funds had to be used up by 2001.

In fairness though, the ffestiniog folks and the WHR project supporters (there are actually TWO Welsh Highland groups) have been conducting a number of massive fund-raising efforts, not just for reinstating the railroad track.  There have been projects to rebuild the world's first Garratt, the fabled "K1".  There have been projects for whole TRAINS of new coaches, etc. etc.

Its not unreasonable to imagine there could have been some lottery funds in the mix too.

MAN!!!  Wouldn't it be AMAZING if some day, RR preservation in this country could develop the expertise the groups in Britain have garnered!
Just imagine what could be accomplished here in the US if we were able to raise a similar $25M.

Best Regards,
Glenn

ETSRRCo replied:

WOW. We are good but these guys are AMAZING!! I wish we could rebuild the whole WW&F like that (just not with all the modern ties and stuff). Just goes to show that you can do almost anything so long as you have the money.

Before


After

Stephen Hussar replied:

And here is the Cambrian Crossing being installed. As Eric said, amazing.


Top photo: Neil McMaster

Botton photo: Nigel Fletcher
_________________
*                *                    *                   *
"Give me enough Swedes and whiskey and I'll build a railroad to Hell."
- James J. Hill

Phil Raynes replied:

Actually, I believe the Cambrian line is no longer owned by British Rail or any other government arm.  The conservative government de-nationalized the rail industry several years ago.  This new crossing was actually agreed to by a privately owned railway, and was installed during a school break while they also did some other track-work nearby.  Passengers were bussed for a few days.

Phil Raynes

Mike Fox replied:

Interesting to note the stones they have along side of the ballast. Or could be some form of cement curbing. Anyhow, it is interesting to see how different things are done and built in other parts of the world.
Mike

Wayne Laepple replied:

That stuff that looks like curbing is actually concrete conduit in sections protecting the signal system wires. It's very common in Britain.

James Patten replied:

So how do those steel ties work?  From what I can see all they are is a folded or bent piece of steel (actually probably cast in that shape) which sits on top of the stone.  If you look at the picture that Eric added, above (Nov 02 post), on that sharp curve it looks like the ties are just sitting on the stone.  What keeps the track in line?

Also, I'm curious if they have different ties with room for a widened gauge around the sharper curves.  What about different ties for different rail weights?  I've seen a close-up picture and there's two humps on either side of where the rail sits, so it looks like a close fit.

Glenn Christensen replied:

Hi James,

The steel ties work like an upside down boat on the ballast.  They are dished upward in the middle.  The ballast under the dished area of the tie keeps the tie from "sinking" into the ballast.  The ends are actually curved downward to dig into the ballast shoulders.  As trains run over the track, the ends and sides become more and more firmly embedded in the ballast.

It is important to note that track in the curve photo was taken soon after track-laying crews had passed through the area.  That is why the track is just sitting on top of the ballast.  The track still must be "fettled" via tamping, leveling, lining, etc. and a "dressing" layer of ballast must still be added.  Note the tie sides and ends are angled inwards to permit the weight of the dressing ballast to further keep the tie in place.  If you look at photos taken on portions of the line that have been in reglar operation for several years, the track looks more firmly bedded.

The WHR also uses special gauge-widened ties and pre-bent rails on very sharp curves.

Hope this helps!

Best Regards,
Glenn

Dave Crow replied:

James,

I surf through both the WHR-C and WHR-P sites.  A fellow by the name of Barrie Hughes posts within the WHR-P site.  The steel ties get tamped, although it is not like the way we do here in the US.  I believe the ballast gets tamped around the ties so they kind of "dig" down into the ballast a little; the curved down ends tend to dig into the ballast so there is little movement side-to-side of the finished track.  Some of the photos are before tamping has occurred.

There are some Indian Railways ties with a slightly wider gauge that are being used on the sharp, 60-meter radius curves.  The "standard" steel ties they received from Poland, I believe, with the rail, is set to the WHR standard gauge.  There is a hard plastic cushion that is under the rail and the notches in the ties essentially hold the gauge.  The Pandrol clip clamps the rail to the tie.

The WHR-P (the volunteer group at the south end of the re-construction) used wood sleepers (ties) with screw-down plates and clips for gauging the railway.  I think that method has been used here in the US in some places, and I'm sure some of the more knowledgable track fellows can chime in.

Just my two cents worth.
Dave Crow

Glenn Christensen replied:

James, is it possible the "humps" you are referring to are actually the "tubes" on either side of the rail base for holding the Pandroil clips?

Glenn

James Patten replied:

I haven't seen a close-up of the "humps" so they could very well be tubes.  Guess I'll just have to go over there and inspect it myself!  Let's see, that'd be a great thing to do in about .... 5 months or so!

Wayne Laepple replied:

Steel ties are used in this country in places where wood ties don't hold. For example, a short line for which I worked had a 17 degree curve on a 1.6 percent grade, and they found that wood ties would not hold gauge reliably for very long. Loaded trains coming down the grade on dynamic brakes and air tended to push the outside rail very hard, and even with tie plates with eight spikes (four plate-holders and four rail-holders), the gauge was widening after just a few months. We put steel ties with welded rail and Pandrol clips in place, and that was the end of our gauge troubles. The steel ties were formed with a half-inch wide gauge allowance to accomodate the curve.

I recently viewed an industrial siding that included two fairly sharp curves with tangents between. The curves had welded rail on steel ties, while the tangents featured standard wood ties with jointed rail.

Phil Raynes replied:

Barrie Hughes was mentioned above in this series of posts.  In case some of you were not aware of it, he has an "unofficial" website that focuses on the whole Welsh Highland - and he updates both ends (WHR(P) & (C)) very regularly.  Often he has updates before the official WHR(C)!  You can also sign up for him to notify you of updates (which I get usually 5+ times a week).  Like the "official" site, he also has the railway divided into sections where you can see the progress from rough brush & trees to finished and fully lined, tamped, and ballasted.  I tried to post his website, but cannot since I haven't posted five times yet.  I'll ask Wayne to post it for you to visit.

He also has a couple of video links to YouTube for snow scenes and construction trains.

Phil

Stewart Rhine replied:

The Maryland Midland Railway started installing steel ties when I worked there 1989 - 1992.  The ties were cast by Beth Steel and had wells for the rail base.  The ties were installed in places where we had gauge problems.   They were used on stick rail and CRW.  They could not be used where line/block or crossing signals required a track circuit.

Wayne Laepple replied:

Here's the unofficial Welsh Highlands web site for all to enjoy:

http://www.isengard.co.uk/

Mike Fox replied:

Thanks Wayne.
Mike

Mike Fox replied:

Wayne,
I have checked that site out several times and they are making great progress. I see they are using steel ties. The money they must be spending to get that running again.
Mike

Wayne Laepple replied:

The WHR is using brand new 60-pound rail rolled in Poland. Some of their funding came from the Heritage Lottery. Must be nice to have a lottery dedicated solely to historic preservation projects!

Mike Fox replied:

If we had a lottery like that the state(s) would get their paws on it and only about 5% would wind up going to where it belongs.

petecosmob replied:

Okay, so %5 of ...(what was the Lotto Jackpot last week?)
I still wouldn't scoff at it!
Cosmo

Wayne Laepple replied:

Be sure to check out the most recent update on the WHR web site, with photos of the erection of a truss bridge and laying precurved rails on an S-curve.

Cheers -- Wayne

Mike Fox replied:

I wonder if that could be sheathed in wood to make it look like a wooden truss bridge. Would look nice over Trout Brook if it could be made to look like it was original.
Mike

Phil Raynes replied:

Hi folks,

Just to keep you up to date, the Carnaerfon end ot the Whelsh Highland project has been very busy over the winter, if you haven't been watching the websites.  Barrie's unofficial "isengard" (the name of his carrier) website has the latest on a bridge recently installed over a 10' deep river, along with track being installed on a hairpin curve through a 40' deep cut.  The official site also has even more photos of the bridge installations (two of them in the last two months!), and a large culvert replacement on part of the track already in operation.  The all-volunteer Porthmadog end has been busy with last little bits - like railroad crossing signs - before their opening of their new section at the end of the month.  Even farm crossings must have crossing signs - in two languages!

Phil

Stephen Hussar replied:

...you gotta love this!  

This northerly view shows tracklaying at the start of the curve that reverses the direction from south to north in Cutting Mawr.


Photo: John Ewing

gordon cook replied:

Can anyone comment on the noise that these steel ties make when a train passes over them? When I was over there riding on Network Rail, I recall some places where the noise level of the train increased, and I wondered if it was the steel ties causing the extra racket. Sure sounded like it.

Bill Sample replied:

Gordon, for what it's worth I have noticed an increase of track noise here in the Colonies when you go from wood to concrete - Amtrak main line at fairly high speed.  My guess is that steel would also be noisy as I imagine wood would tend to absorb noise better. And in that cut especially!

Phil Raynes replied:

Actually, Wayne mentioned to me that he thought the noise of the exhaust in the cutting would be loud going uphill, so that would probably drown the track noise out in at least that direction!

Stephen Hussar replied:

I'm still unclear on how the metal ties, which appear to be laying freely atop the ballast, keep the alignment of the track from changing on its own. Are they anchored down somehow?

Phil Raynes replied:

The section of track shown in the cutting has only just been laid.  It has yet to be tamped.  After tamping (with a modern tamper, no less - look at photos back in their archives), they come along with more ballast to top it off.  I'll see if I can find links to the photos of the tamper and completed sections of track.

Phil

James Patten replied:

Steve, if you come with us to Wales in May, you can check it out first hand  

Phil Raynes replied:

Here are some links to the sites that show various aspects of answers to questions raised.

Work train with 2 side dump ballast cars:
http://www.bangor.ac.uk/ml/whr/2006/pj-rhyd-070406-2.jpg

The brand new (2006) Romanian built center dump ballast hopper w/ older Matisa tamper (now for sale) in front:
http://www.bangor.ac.uk/ml/whr/2007/rhyd-040207-2.jpg

Their new KMX tamper, converted by the Ffestiniog from a 3’ gauge French tamper:
http://www.bangor.ac.uk/ml/whr/2007/whrcl-ballast-150207-3.jpg

Phil

Notice the ties buried in the ballast in this last shot.

This page shows the work they had to do to restore about a mile of track beyond the Rhyd Ddu station.  From swamp to ballasted track in one year!
]http://www.bangor.ac.uk/ml/whr/phase4/rhyd-pcg.htm[url]][/url]

Phil Raynes replied:

That last URL should be:

http://www.bangor.ac.uk/ml/whr/phase4/rhyd-pcg.htm

Sorry!
Phil

Stephen Hussar replied:

Steve, if you come with us to Wales in May, you can check it out first hand  /i]

I really wish I could! The next "field trip" is to the Sumper Valley, right?!
Phil, thanks for the links. Any idea how much the metal sleepers weigh?

Phil Raynes replied:

Steve,
I have not been able to locate any information about the weight of the steel "sleepers".

For those of you interested in the latest track work on the WHRwy, check out this page by a volunteer.  It includes 2 videos of work trains on the new track - even going through the tunnels!
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/john.raby1/whrrowg.html

They are now finishing up in the Aberglaslyn Pass, and rapidly approaching the final level valley floor.  Beddgelert Station platforms and sidings are complete, station contract itself to be let some time in 2008.  More info can be found on either the official site or Barrie Hughes's unofficial site.
Phil

Mike Fox replied:

Steve,
It is the shape that anchors them. The sides taper down into the ballast to give them bite.
Mike

Phil Raynes replied:

Just to bring you up to date, there are some recent photos available of the Welsh Highland.  PLEASE NOTE: all these pages are loaded with thumbnails, and will take a loooonnng time to open fully on dail-up!

For the latest news, including photos of 2 "England" (the manufacturer, from 1863) locos on a special on the unopened section, go to:

http://whr.bangor.ac.uk/whlatest.htm

If you aren't interested in the 2-6-2+2-6-2 Garretts, but want more of the 0-4-0 locos in action on he "S"-curves near Beddgelert with 3 period coaches, go to:

http://www.fatbloke.fotopic.net/c1402772.html

For photos of the track being rebuilt and completed in the Aberglaslyn Pass (including some pretty spectacular scenery at the bottom of the page!), go to:

http://whr.bangor.ac.uk/phase4/aberglaslyn.htm

Out of curiosity (and please pardon my ignorance!), did any of the Maine 2-footers go through scenery similar to this?

Enjoy,
Phil

Bill Sample replied:

Phil, none of the Maine 2-footers had scenery quite this rugged, my thought is the Sandy River & Rangeley Lakes had the most "dramatic" hills in their vicinity compared to the others.  None of the "Maine Five" had any tunnels that I'm aware of.  I've been to the Ffestiniog twice so I've seen  the Welsh scenery first hand.  Even with the current killer exchange rate I hope to get back to ride the WHR when it re-opens.
In my view, what the Maine 2-footers lacked in spectacular scenery they made up for with their own special charm.

James Patten replied:

For those of you that check out the latest news on the WHR restoration, the Head of Steel has reached Croesor Junction - which means they are about to point south and shoot towards Porthmadog.

Additionally, work has started on Harbour Station to add a switch which will lead to the WHR track.

Things are about to get real exciting in downtown Porthmadog!

Phil Raynes replied:

Photos of the first steam train in Aberglaslyn Pass since abandonment in 1946 have been posted on Ben Fisher's "News" page!  Some of the views are incredible, and are similar to certain parts of the Durango & Silverton.  Over 66 photos have been posted!  Definitely worth a trip to ride it!  Enjoy!

http://whr.bangor.ac.uk/whlatest.htm

Phil

Ira Schreiber replied:

Wonderful photos, I can't wait to see it in person.............

Phil Raynes replied:

For those interested in a video of the first steam train through the Aberglaslyn Pass, check out this video.  It includes about 4 minutes heading downhill, then 6 minutes coming back up, stopping at Beddgelert Station to refill the tank at the very newly installed water crane, and  then views of the train climbing the s-curves out of Beddgelert.  These videos were taken by one of the volunteer track crew, who were given time off to ride the train for all their efforts!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H72mTv8Vh2U

Phil

jlancasterd replied:

Photos of the first steam train in Aberglaslyn Pass since abandonment in 1946 have been posted on Ben Fisher's "News" page!  Some of the views are incredible, and are similar to certain parts of the Durango & Silverton.  Over 66 photos have been posted!  Definitely worth a trip to ride it!  Enjoy!
Phil

The last steam train in the Aberglaslyn Pass was the clean-up train hauled by 'Russell' in 1937 - the track-lifting trains during WW2 were hauled by a 20HP Simplex diesel.

If any members of this forum are intending to visit the WHR or the FR during the coming summer, I would be happy to meet you. I'm around Harbour Station in Porthmadog most days if I'm not elsewhere photographing progress. Visits to Boston Lodge Works can be arranged...

Best if you PM me before you leave home.

John Dobson
(Editor, FR Magazine)

James Patten replied:

John,

Check out the "How I spent my May Bank Holiday" thread for a trip report about a trip several of us took to Wales, myself included.

I'm still raving about the trip.  The FR is a fabulous ride!  Boston Lodge was quite awe-inspiring too.

Alas a return trip to Wales is out of the cards for a while, at least for me.

snowtownbob replied:

Hi everybody, I hope you don't mind an honorary Welshman joining your group but I was involved with the Welsh Highland Railway rebuilding from the earliest days and the lottery funding was my idea.  I'm now too old to undertake physical work but still take photographs and meet with the North Wales track laying gang every month for a pint or two and a talk from a guest speaker.

The steel sleepers (ties) seem to intrigue people so I'll start on those.  The Snowdon Mountain railway, a rack or cog railway here in my home village of Llanberis was laid with steel ties in 1896 and a good proportion of those are still in use.  (Incidentally, we also have here a Lakeside railway which uses ex-quarry two foot gauge Hunslet locos, Llanberis is a good place to live).

When the WHR rebuild was in its early stages the head of the South African railways two foot gauge network approached the Ffestiniog Railway since he had learnt his trade in Boston Lodge works in Porthmadog.  He offered three two foot gauge NGG16 Garratts and a twelve mile branch line which had seen only two years use after relaying before a bridge wash out closed it.  We thought we were getting complete track panels but the undergrowth made it impossible to lift the track in complete section so we got rails, ties and all the fastenings.  To compensate, the fastenings and ties were loaded into open bogie cars which came free and are still used on the works trains, and two of them have been converted into bicycle carrier wagons.

Nest post I'll set out how the volunteers lay the track, it's now up to the stage where ten volunteers can lay two hundred yards in a day -- by hand.

Snowtownbob

Phil Raynes replied:

It is good to have John & Bob joining and providing us with the answers!  I joined both the WHRwy Forum and the Yahoo Group, and follow both Dr. Ben's and Barrie's web pages to keep track of what is going on.  It is an exciting time for Welsh Narrow Gauge Railways!

Phil

NGFan replied:

It is so good to be able to read up on what is happening there.  My daughter just got a scholarship to Crittenden for 08-09 so you know where some of my vacation is going to be spent.  Yahoo  

John

Stephen Hussar replied:

It is good to have John & Bob joining and providing us with the answers! It is an exciting time for Welsh Narrow Gauge Railways! Phil

I was thinking the same thing! Welcome!

snowtownbob replied:

You're very kind, so I'll let you in on how we lay track.

You might have noticed on recent postings on the isengard and Bangor University sites photos which showed in the foreground small yellow trucks with open frames. These are RRMs (Roland's Rail Movers, named after the construction manager on Phase 1) or, more properly, skates.  The frame supports a pair of lazy tongs grabs which are raised and lowered by large detachable levers on top of the frame.

Rails are deposited from transporter wagons into the middle of th etrackalready laid.  They are then picked up in pairs by two RRMs and the assemblage used to roll the pairs of rails up to the head of steel.  We use a small diesle loco for this, but it can be (and has bee) done by hamd.

At the head of steel the rails are lowered one at a time onto rollers and guided using riail tongs to the final position, the cunning bit being the rollers.  We originally used short lengths of scaffold pole as rollers, moving on wood planks laid on the top of the last completed section of track, but this was awkward and slow, althiough traditional.

One day someone remembered an old roller conveyor we had been donated  -- the kind used in warehouses to assemble orders.  We cut this up into single roller sections and lo and behold they fitted onto the ties and gave us a good but very temporary roller conveyor for rails.  As far as I know this method of track laying is unique -- but I may well be wrong.

Working this way, with bolted track, we could lay 100 yards (five panels) of tangent track a day. Proress on the severe curves is much slower, however.  After Rhyd Ddu, Pandrol clipped track has been used (with Heritage sections in traditional wooden sleepered track) and this can be laid at ten panels or 100 yards a day using a ten man crew. very recently on some days that has risen to almost twenty panels a day.  I haven;t laid track since Rhyd Ddu so can;e give practical details on Pandrol track but the Black Hand Gang (aka the North Wales Group) which I originally raised tell me that Pandrol is much easier and quicker.

Hope this helps when you come to lay track.

Bob Gartside

jlancasterd replied:

There was a large track laying party in evidence on Phase 4 today, including a contingent of Dutchmen, organised by Paul Bender, and a large group from the Imperial College Railway Society (Imperial College is part of the University of London).

They had extended the head of steel across the minor road at 'Cowshit Corner' (LC112 on the John Sreeves maps accessible vis the WHR websites) by early afternoon despite intermittent snow and hail showers and should be at, or very near, Pont Croesor (the multi-span bridge across the Glaslyn) by the end of the week.

See: http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/people/50649-waiting.html#post532398
_________________
Editor
Ffestiniog Railway Magazine

jlancasterd replied:

Thanks to help from groups of volunteers from Holland, Network Rail and Grant Rail, the Rest of the World gang have laid well over a kilometer of track since Saturday last week. By yesterday evening track was complete to within one rail length of Pont Croesor. Some adjustment of rail lengths will be necessary before the new track can be connected to that already laid on the bridge, but that shouldn't take long and will probably be done today.

Fencing was also installed from LC112 to Pont Croesor during the past few days.

It is likely that there will now be a hiatus in track laying as the trackbed between Pont Croesor and the Traeth Mawr Halt site needs considerable work, including the building of two Armco occupation bridges for cattle access.

Photos at: http://whr.bangor.ac.uk/phase4/dylif-pontc.htm
_________________
Editor
Ffestiniog Railway Magazine

James Patten replied:

The WHR(P) group said that they were unable to keep laying track past Traeth Mawr because the farmer beyond wanted a bridge built for cattle access across his whole parcel of land.  Is this farmer getting his wish or will just a small cattle pass bridge be built for him?

jlancasterd replied:

The WHR(P) group said that they were unable to keep laying track past Traeth Mawr because the farmer beyond wanted a bridge built for cattle access across his whole parcel of land.  Is this farmer getting his wish or will just a small cattle pass bridge be built for him?

He's actually getting  TWO bridges. IIRC they will be built around large diameter 'Armco' corrugated tubes, of the type used for culverts, rivers and streams, which will be covered with earth so that they can be grassed, as will the access ramps for the cattle. The actual tunnel section on each bridge will be no more than 20/25 feet long.

See: http://whr.bangor.ac.uk/phase4/pontcroesor-traeth.htm
_________________
Editor
Ffestiniog Railway Magazine

2019

Archives (Museum) / History Scripts on W, W, & F Railway for Train Crew

« on: September 15, 2010, 08:09:05 PM »

MODERATORS NOTE:
History Scripts on W, W, & F Railway for Train Crew has been converted from the pre-July 2008 WW&F Discussion Forum.
Some formatting may have been removed or modified from the original postings that appear quoted in this topic.
Information contained within this post may be superseded by more recent postings and conversations.
Joe Fox wrote:

Hi Everybody,

Since I can't be at the museum for a few more Saturdays unfortunatley, I am going to make up a script, as best as I can, rehearse it to make sure that it isn't to long. The Conductor will hvae to have a shorter version of it. However, the conductor could talk on the return trip, and also talk to the passengers at Alna Cetner about the railroad, the building, the road, the saw mill parts, etc. etc. The last thing a passenger wants to hear as an answer is I don't know. If they here that, then they say, well these guys are just restoring the railroad, and don't know anything about it. In one day, I have counted a total of 3 I don't know's to a question. But I came home, and immediatley did research on it. I plan to have the scripts with me when I come down again either the Saturday after Thanksgiving, or the first weekend of December. See you guys then.

Joe

petecosmob replied:

and only a thought, but what if you could find an old fassioned "Meggaphone," that is, just a large cone with a handgrip and no electronics....
It might be a bit cumbersome and a bit heavy, but it would DEFINITELY firt the era!!
Anyway, i suggest as a means of amplification as shouting over the train noise might get a bit tiresome, and harsh on the voice, and as an alternative to electronic amplification that might otherwise detract from the experience.
Cosmo

Joe Fox replied:

If there is a whole train car full of passengers that have never ridden the trian before, very rare, I stand in the middle of the car. If there are a few people that have never ridden the train before, then I stand close to their end of the car. While the whistle is blowing, I stop talking so I don't have to talk over the whistle.

James Patten replied:

How are those scripts coming, Joe?

2020

Museum Discussion / Locomotive lettering.

« on: September 15, 2010, 08:07:04 PM »

MODERATORS NOTE:
Locomotive lettering. has been converted from the pre-July 2008 WW&F Discussion Forum.
Some formatting may have been removed or modified from the original postings that appear quoted in this topic.
Information contained within this post may be superseded by more recent postings and conversations.
sgprailfan wrote:

I have noticed that in a handful of photos I have seen of WW&F Ry locomotives they do not say WW&f Ry on them am I missing some thing?

ETSRRCo replied:

For a period of the WW&F's life they did not letter their locomotives. I could not tell from when to when but I do know that the lettering returned a few years before the railroad closed. As to why they did not letter them I do not know. Someone who knows more will be able to fill in the blanks.

-Eric

sgprailfan replied:

What about #2 & #3?

ETSRRCo replied:

Same thing. Every locomotive did not have lettering at the same point and time as the others. From looking through "Narrow Gauge in the Sheepscot Valley volume V" it looks like the 2 lost her lettering in the early 1910's. It reappeared in the early 30's along with her number plate. The 3 I would think lost the lettering at the same time and it also received the small lettering in the early 30's.

Stewart Rhine replied:

Locomotive lettering follows economic conditions and ownership change.  Ownership changes occured when the W&Q became the WW&FRR in 1901 and then became the WW&FRy in 1907.  We know that Carson Peck had the older locomotives repainted and relettered when engines 6 and 7 arrived from Baldwin.  As the company's income declined, painting and lettering became less inportant.  The Peck interests sold the railroad to the farmers group which later sold it to Frank Winter.  That is why the painting and lettering of locomotives is not consistant.  As Eric said, the newer, smaller lettering appeared in the early 1930's.

Stewart

sgprailfan replied:

The reason why I was asked when I in the first place is because I would like to try and Model two locomotives like WW&F 2 & 3 for my Fictunal (On30) Private Roadname The Forney Creek Railway! If they were unletered when built I would make my Forney Creek Lcomotives Unletered and ta da.. WW&F locomotives when ever I need them!

James Patten replied:

I'm not terribly enamored of the small tank lettering of the '30s, which is what we currently have on our engines.  It reminds me of a poor, nearly broken down railroad, which doesn't want its name proclaimed too loudly.

The lettering from the oughts and teens, however, is more my style: big lettering taking up half the tank.  This says to me we're a proud, moderately well-off railroad and we want the world to know it.

#10 before it underwent its rebuild had the big lettering.  Now it has the small lettering, mainly because I couldn't find the template I used to create the large lettering in the first place.  It was a lot of work to create, and I don't really want to do it again.

Stewart Rhine replied:

James,   I could not agree with you more.  I was the one who painted the small lettering on #10 when it arrived in 1999 but I prefer the large letters that you painted on her later.  I have many photos of #10 with the "stacked" large letters and she looks better.  Since #10 is not an original WW&F  locomotive I think we should paint her with the large letters when the new tender is built.  I would be willing to do the job if she can hold still long enough.  Of course # 9 only had the small 1930's lettering so she will get the correct version when the tender is repaired.  The small lettering on there now is actually the wrong font and size.

Stewart

sgprailfan replied:

I know this is not completly on topic but also for future modeling refrence, How did the  ww&f (and the w&Q) number there rolling stock( boxcars flatcars etc)?

James Patten replied:

Not sure what you mean by your question, sqprailfan.  Do you mean where on the cars did the numbers go, or how they figured out what numbers to use?

sgprailfan replied:

How they figured out what numbers to use, I can figure out where they went on a car by looking at the rolling stock at the museum. Sorry about that.

James Patten replied:

In general, here's how the numbers were applied:

100 series cars were the flatcars
200 series cars were the snowplows (or the flangers)
300 series cars were the boxcars and cabooses
400 series cars were flangers (or the snowplows)
500 series cars were potato cars.

Passenger cars started at 1 and went up to 7.  Then they redid the numbers to be 1-4 to be combination cars and 10-12 to be coaches.

sgprailfan replied:

Thanks, wait  a second patato cars? Were they like Ventilated Box cars?

James Patten replied:

The 500-series cars were boxcars with smokejacks on the roof.  They were also wider than the other boxcars.

The refrigerated milk cars were apparently selected at random from all over the fleet and modifed.  They didn't have refrigeration equipment, of course, but they were insulated and had room for an attendant to ride along.

There were other double digit cars, of which some were boxcars and some were flats, which I believe came from the construction company building the line from Weeks Mills to Winslow.

Joe Fox replied:

I noticed that up in Phillips they have a hose on one of the box cars. Well, it looks like a box car, except it has two little sliding opening on the end of the car. I don't know the technical term for it, but I was told it might have been used for heat, but I think it was a vacumn brake hose. What do you guys think?

Joe

ETSRRCo replied:

If its a SR&RL box its probably an airbrake hose. The end doors were so the car could be used to haul grain I think. Box cars didnt have heat (with the exceptions of the potato cars).

-Eric
_________________
Eric Bolton
East Tigard & Southern Railroad Co 1889-1958

tomc replied:

They were used to load lumber and maybe grain.  I think most grain in those days went in bags.

Tom C.

Joe Fox replied:

That is what I thought it was, since it looks exactly like an air brake hose. When the SR&RL ran mixed trains, how did they heat the coaches, or  did they just not have heat?

Joe

Bill Sample replied:

Joe, to the best of my knowledge all passenger cars and cabooses were heated by one or two stoves.  No steam heat from the locomotive until the Edaville era.
I believe the "Rangeley" at the MNGRR Portland was built with a Baker heater, which was a hot water heating system that included a stove with some sort of water jacket. Most or all of this remains intact today on that car.

Dave Crow replied:

Peter Barney's book on the SR&RL passenger cars show that the Jackson & Sharp/AC&F passenger cars had Baker "Mighty Midget" stoves.  If you look on the Sandy River website, there is a shot of the underframe of coach 18, I beleive, that shows both air brake AND Eames vacuum brake systems!  What a mess.

Combine 6 on the WW&F originally had steam heat, but they quickly removed a seat and added a stove instead; maybe the heat wasn't adequate, or it took too much steam from the small boilers on the locomotives?

Dave Crow

Joe Fox replied:

Thanks for the info. I wasn't sure that's all. Does anybody know if the Rangley still has the bathroom in it? I think it would be great if MNGRR would give tours through the Rangley.

Joe

James Patten replied:

I believe the Rangely still has everything it had on the SR&RL.  I've been through it but didn't feel worthy enough to sit in the seats.

Joe Fox replied:

Oh, how were you able to go through it James? Did you go in it when it was at Edaville?

Joe

James Patten replied:

It was in 1999 when we were moving Coach 3 from deep inside the MNGRR museum building to the mainline before they trucked it up to Sheepscot.  We had to move the Rangely halfway outside and juggle some other cars around before we could get Coach 3 out.  It was a day and a half job.  At the end of the first day's work we got to walk through the Rangely.

My feeling of unworthiness probably stemmed more from the dirt on my pants and hands than from anything else.  I really wouldn't want to touch it with anything less than perfectly clean hands.

Joe Fox replied:

Oh. That's cool. How did they do the switching then? I think our first time down to Portland, we walked through Coach 3. If so, I will have to find that tape, and put it with the rest of my W, W, & F Ry movies. Talk to you later.

Joe

James Patten replied:

We did the switching using multiple 0-2-0's and sometimes with help from their loader.  We had to move the snap tracks all around and in tight curves and so it wasn't always easy.  I can't remember how we got the Rangely and Coach 3 to switch positions, but it involved fancy footwork.

Then once we got it out of the building it was a matter of the snap track keeping up with the forward motion of the coach, as it was a downhill run.

Joe Fox replied:

That sounds like fun. Glad I wasn't in on that.

Joe

sgprailfan replied:

I was looking at the picture of the flat car and I began to wonder if the first WW&F flats were painted the same way, or should I say W&Q??

MikeW replied:

SR&RL Coach #17 also had a Baker hot water heat system.  The remnants of it can be seen in the car to this day.  In pictures of its later years while stil in use you can see the telltale housing on the roof on one end.

Keith Taylor replied:

Joe,
It wouldn't be a vacuum brake on the SR&RL, they had Westinghouse air brakes. If you look at the drawings from Baldwin for the No. 23 locomotive, you can see it was built with an 8-1/2" single stage Westinghouse air compressor. While the No.9 still has it's Eame's patent vacuum brake equipment, that is ONLY for the locomotive. I don't believe the WW&F had power brakes on any of their rolling stock, but I'm sure those in the know will let us know if they did have automatic brakes on any of the cars.
The more modern power on the SR&RL all had air brakes.
If you follow the hose on the car at Phillips, it should be connected to a type K triple valve and a combination main and auxilliary reservoir and brake cylinder set up.
I can't imagine that any railroad anywhere ever ran steam heat lines through freight cars! And...all of the Maine Two Foot coaches I've seen all had individual car heating equipment.
Keith

Joe Fox replied:

The coaches on the W, W, & F were all equiped with vacuum brakes. Or, I think that's what I remember reading in the book. Coach 3 still has it's vacuum hose on the east hand side of the car, and it goes right along near the edge of the car.

Joe

Keith Taylor replied:

Hello Joe,
I don't doubt the W&Q coaches came with brake equipment, from everything I've read and heard, during the WW&F period, and particularly when used in "mixed" service, the brakes were not used all the time.
The problem is a vacuum system is much more difficult to maintain. If you have an air leak with with regular automatic (Westinghouse type) brakes, the compressor just pumps harder and it can make up the loss.
With a vacumm system the eductor can only draw so much vacuum, and there is steam loss all of the time to create and maintain a vacuum. If you have leaks, the eductor can't create more vacuum, so the brakes begin to apply serially along the train, from the point of the leak back.
In later days, even on passenger trains it was more practical to have the engineer whistle for brakes and the train crew tie down the train with hand brakes.
Vacuum brakes are actually an excellent system, but very labor intensive to maintain.
Keith

Joe Fox replied:

How hard would it be to reinstall vacuum brakes on passenger equipment? Not that the museum would ever want to, but I am just curious, that's all.

Joe

Keith Taylor replied:

Hi Joe,
I can't speak for the Museum, obviously, but I believe they fully intend to restore the vacuum brakes on No.9.
The NJ Museum of Transportaion has a complete Irish narrow gauge train that is equipped with vacuum brakes on the engine and passenger coaches.
Keith

James Patten replied:

It looks like the spot where the vacuum pot would go is still in place underneath Coach 3.  I know Jason mentioned the possibility of installing vacuum equipment underneath the cars.

Joe Fox replied:

Ok. Thanks

Joe

sgprailfan replied:

It looks like the spot where the vacuum pot would go is still in place underneath Coach 3.  I know Jason mentioned the possibility of installing vacuum equipment underneath the cars.

What about the 8?

Joe Fox replied:

Coach 8 never had vacuum brakes, due to it being an Edaville creation, and they didn't keep many, if any at all, vacuum brakes on the coaches. For example, the brake rigging was taken out of coach 3, and the hand brake rods were welded to prevent passengers from turning the brake wheels.  Somebody else, who knows more about the history of Edaville could tell you more than that. As far as I know, Coach 8 never ran with vacuum brakes, as Edaville didn't run with vacuum brakes. Talk to you guys later.

Joe

2021

The Original W&Q and WW&F: 1894-1933 / Aerial Photography

« on: September 15, 2010, 08:03:22 PM »

MODERATORS NOTE:
Aerial Photography has been converted from the pre-July 2008 WW&F Discussion Forum.
Some formatting may have been removed or modified from the original postings that appear quoted in this topic.
Information contained within this post may be superseded by more recent postings and conversations.
Mike Fox wrote:

Try this site for aerial pictures of any where in Maine. I have followed the WW&F in many places. You can see a lot of others too. Trying some FS&K but not much to follow there. Copy and paste to your address bar. Enjoy.

http://megisims.state.me.us/website/orthomap/viewer.htm

Mike

James Patten replied:

The pictures from around the Museum area seem to be from 1998 or 1999 - when the track petered out near the bottom of Davis Grade.

Mike Fox replied:

They are older but if time allows one can find grade in quite a few places.
Mike

ETSRRCo replied:

Where in Strong was the depot located? Along what streets? I have tried to follow the SR&RL from Farmington and Strong but I lose it just north of Farmington.

James Patten replied:

Strong's station location is now a parking lot, basically.  However many of the outlying buildings that were there when the railroad ran are still there.  The mill is there as well.

Stewart Rhine replied:

As James noted, the location of the Strong station is now an open lot.  You can best find it by watching for the large red toothpick mill on the right and the smaller original white clapboard creamery on the left when you drive up the main street.  The other mill building (just past the creamery on the left) is now in a natural wood color and the North side has been rebuilt to serve as a store and gas station.  The SR&RL station sat Southeast of the creamery building on the same side of the road.  If you have the Two Feet Between the Rails books you will see the creamery and mill buildings as landmarks to locate the station area.  Dr. Bell's home is next to the toothpick mill and it was right across the street from the station.  This home shows up in alot of photos taken at Strong.  The front of the home is as it was in the 1930's so it is also a good landmark.  The open area next to the creamery is where the switch was for the F&M branch off of the original SRRR Farmington to Phillips mainline.  There are some newer wooden buildings on the site of the turntable.  These are a bit West of where the station sat.

Stewart

Joe Fox replied:

I will be glad when they update the aerial photo's on like google earth, or whatever, so that I can see the railroad grade that is now cut out. I like the ones that Mike White takes from the air plane, those are great. The images from a satelite are good for measuring things.

Joe

MikeW replied:

The aerial photography available on the Maine Office of GIS website referred to earlier was flown in the Spring of 2003.  These "orthophotos" are orthometrically corrected, meaning that they have been corrected to remove distortion due to terrain and lens distortions.  This means that you can fairly accurately measure the distance between any two ground points on these.  Note they were not corrected to remove building lean etc.  Also, these photos are registered to the UTM Zone 19 coordinate system (if you download the appropriate info).  You can use them as backdrops in software that supports geographic coordinate systems such as GIS and high-end CAD systems.  The pixel size (aka ground resolution) for the Alna area is 2 feet.  Your eye is actually able to discern features smaller than the pixel size for some wierd physiological reasons.

Southern, central and coastal areas are currently available through the state website.  More orthophoto imagery will become available as budgets permit.  FYI, the imagery on Google is the same, although Google seems to have a more complete set than the State (go figure).

I have often used this imagery to follow old railroad grades.  It is amazing how well you can find grades that have been abandoned 90+ years!

Josh Botting replied:

You should try Google earth, I think the interphase is a little more freindly, and the pictures may be newer, and you can fly over the land.
I just downloaded it, kinda a pain, but neat none the less.

LARC replied:

The photos used in Google Earth are actually derived mostly from the MaineGIS project.  Check out some other areas of the state such as Fort Fairfield for Ultra High Rezolution photos, and Cumberland County for .5' resolution photos.  There are some differences though with Googles maps though.  As mentioned earlier the MaineGIS maps could, simply put, be considered 'smart maps' meaning with, as stated earlier, with the right software they can be merged with topographic maps, have their geological features extruded to depict terrain, etc.  One popular program being ARCmap, and ARCscene, which I believe are free, but may be difficult to obtain, but would be benneficial to the museum or anyone in land-use.  Also check out a site sponsored by Microsoft which allows the user to toggle between USGS maps and the corresponding Aerial Photos, just google 'Microsoft Terraserver'  (I need 4 more post before I can attach the URL) it should come up at the first link.

MikeW replied:

ArcMap is the core of the ESRI software products.  The base version is named ArcView, and it lists for around $1500 with a street price of about $1150.  ArcScene is an extension.  You are talking $$$ if you want to get into this.  The Portland area photos were originally acquired by GPCOG, then purchased by the Maine GeoLibrary Board.  Similarly, the Fort Fairfield area was originally acquired by a group of towns, then later purchased for use by the Maine Office of GIS by the GeoLibrary Board.  Later Google acquired these too.

2022

Archives (Other Maine 2ft) / SR & RL Pictures

« on: September 15, 2010, 08:00:36 PM »

MODERATORS NOTE:
SR & RL Pictures has been converted from the pre-July 2008 WW&F Discussion Forum.
Some formatting may have been removed or modified from the original postings that appear quoted in this topic.
Information contained within this post may be superseded by more recent postings and conversations.
Stephen Hussar wrote:

Here's a shot of the South abutment for the SR&RL mainline up on Reddington Mt.  It's a little down stream from Reddington dam.  This was photographed the day Zack, Marcel, Eric and Stewart hiked up Sluice Hill to Reddington.  Note that there are timbers intact on top of the structure.



Reddington Pond looking N/W.  Eric is on the shoreline.  The town, mill, and railroad station were on the opposite side of the lake.  It was 15 degrees colder up there than it was at Phillips.


All photos: Stewart Rhine

James Patten replied:

Hey Stewart, did you guys follow the roadbed to find the abutment?  Where is it in relation to where we departed from the roadbed to trek through the woods?

Stewart Rhine replied:

James,  The bridge abutment is a bit South of where we followed the grade to the lake shore.  At some point in the 1960's the grade was bull dozed where it approached the Oberton Stream.  This was done so a truck could bring a boat to the shore line.  What fooled us was how the grade drops down to the shore.  It looked like the railroad grade.  We didn't see part of the original fill going off towards the stream in the brush on our left.

As you walk North on the grade, watch on your left as you get to the bottom of the hill.  You will see a portion of the remaining fill.  Walk up on top of the fill and follow it to the stream.  You will be about 25 feet above the stream when you reach the abutment.

Stewart

Joe Fox replied:

Sluice Hill was the 4% grade right? I believe I heard it was 4 or 6 miles long, and started off as 2%. I haven't done much research on the SR&RL, since I would rather learn more about the W, W, & F, since I am, or try to be one of the regular volunteers.

Joe

Stewart Rhine replied:

Joe,  You are right about the grades on Sluice Hill.  The three miles from Reeds to Perham Jct were at 2% ascending and the next 4 miles was 4%  up to the summit.  The top of the grade is about 1/4 mile before the line crossed the Oberton stream.  You can drive about half the way up Sluice Hill until the wash out's have you walking.  It's a great hike up to Reddington Pond.

Joe Fox replied:

Thanks Stewart. I wasn't sure exactly. I will have to ask dad if we can go for a hike up there sometime. We were supposed to go with Dana, to explore the Hiram yard some more on the B&H, but we never did go. Talk to you later.

Joe

Steam replied:

I thought the whole Reddington area was off limits due to it being owned by the U.S.Navy and used as a SEAL training base!  When did that change? Always saw No Trespassing signs up there.  We drove up Sluice Hill to the washout where the little stream goes off that steep waterfall on the left as you face north. Was that Cascade Brook where the Model Ts took water?

Richard Symmes

Stewart Rhine replied:

Richard,   You are right about Cascade Brook waterfall.  It flows down from the right, crosses the grade and drops off about 100 feet on the left as you look North, up the mountain.  That is where the photo of the stopped Model T  was taken.  As to the signs, the NAVY still owns the land and you must have permission to follow the grade once you cross the Oberton Stream.  The signs begin a bit before the South end of the pond.  We usually hike as far as the dam.  I have been in there four times and haven't seen anyone other than some local hunters/fishermen.

Steam replied:

I recall someone telling me some years ago that they were stopped by military personnel with M16s who threatened to arrest them for trespassing!  So we've usually steered clear of the whole area.  Others have told me they have called and asked for permission to enter, and have gone in to where the Reddington depot was, etc.  I've always wanted to get in there, just to say I've been there! Probably nothing to see once you get there!

Onward and upward!

Richard

Stewart Rhine replied:

Richard, A bunch from Phillips got permission and went into where the town was last the Summer.  John Stinchfield could tell you who they contacted with the NAVY.  They saw the foundations where the mill sat but said it was all over grown.  They hiked in a mile or more past the dam.   I'd like to get in there some time too.

Steam replied:

Stewart,

If you ever line up an "official" trip in there, let me know ahead of time if you can. I, and a few others down here, would love to have a chance to see Reddington!

We've been to Dead River, Dallas, Eustice Jct., etc. over the years, and up to Greens Farm ("Narrow Gauge Road") area a couple years ago.  Since 1962 we've been up there at least a dozen times on 3-day exploration trips from one end to the other.  First time, the roundhouse and shops at Phillips were still there. We got to go inside and see the wood turning operation. With all that sawdust and a live boiler, no wonder it burned!

Richard

Stewart Rhine replied:

Richard, I'll let you know when the next WW&F group goes up there.  We usually go in the Fall.  Your explorations of the SR&RL sound great.  Do you have photos from your trips up there in the 1960's and 70's?  I'd like to see them sometime.

Stewart

Stephen Hussar replied:

Thanks to Stewart Rhine for forwarding these pictures of the recently discovered SR & RL tenders. Photos were taken in October of this year.

Joe Fox replied:

I have taken photos, of basically the same angle this year. I just haven't developed the film yet. I think that it is cool, that they have put those tenders on display, but it would be nice if they could restore them, or at least, try and prevent them from decaying any more.

Joe

Stewart Rhine replied:

For those who have not been to Phillips - the top photo shows both tenders, a stationary boiler (in the middle) that came from the shop, and part of a Portland Company stack (on the left).  There is also a wheel set that is out of view.  The bottom shot shows the better of the two tenders.  At the top left is the water control valve ring and handle.  The stack is lying at the bottom right.

Steam replied:

How is it that those tender bodies got saved when the locomotives were cut up? I don't see the point. And why were they buried?  I know the water/coal bunker from #22 was also left near the Phillips roundhouse, and is now over at the musem site.  Why did the scrapper leave them?  Maybe they should dig more; perhaps the entire #24 is buried somewhere (l.o.l.)!!

I have photos/slides from all the trips I've made up to SR&RL country since 1964.

Richard Symmes

Steve Klare replied:

Hi Steam,

Are you the "Steam" from Railroad.net?

We discussed this in the thread "Monson #3 at Phillips". The tender bodies in question were buried long before the scrapping, and are actually tenders that were replaced. (...maybe when 16 and 18 went to Waterville to become Prairies?)

These were buried as fill when the Brayman track was built.

Srnumber9 from Railfan.net and Yahoo (etc.  ...even IMDB!)

Steam replied:

I see!

Yes, I'm "Steam" from RR.Net, etc.

What about the boiler that was over behind the Phillips Hist. Soc.?  Someone said that was from either Puck or Ariel, one of the 2 B&B locomotives.  Is that so, or just wishful thinking?

Richard

Steve Klare replied:

I've always heard it was "Ariel". The story was they were digging a foundation in Strong and found it buried there.

I actually helped paint this boiler back in the mid 80s. This is not to say I actually painted it, but a fellow from the local body shop volunteered to paint it black. He found that if he put his compressor on a long enough power cord to reach the boiler, the line drops kept the compressor from starting up. So he'd spray until the pressure ran out, we'd all drag the compressor over to the Historical House and plug it in, charge the tank up to pressure, and then unplug it and drag it back out to the boiler.

Same trip we painted caboose 556 (still a "trailer" back then), but that was buckets and brushes.

We stayed in Phillips free that week, but I think we earned our keep!

Stephen Hussar replied:

From Stewart Rhine: Former B&B "Ariel," and some Kingfield then & now...




_________________
*                *                    *                   *
"Give me enough Swedes and whiskey and I'll build a railroad to Hell."
- James J. Hill

Stephen Hussar replied:

Phillips "then & now."


_________________
*                *                    *                   *
"Give me enough Swedes and whiskey and I'll build a railroad to Hell."
- James J. Hill

Joe Fox replied:

It's to bad that Philips Depot, doesn't have any track in front of it. There are a lot of people in the state of Maine that never knew that we once had two foot gauge railroads, and how important the railroad industry is to our country.

Joe

Bill Sample replied:

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but the Kingfield Station has followed most of the others into the pages of history, being torn down a year or two ago.  From what I remember being told, saving and moving the station was beyond the means of the SR&RL group, although pieces of it were salvaged.  It was said that a good replica of the station was much more cost effective as the original was much modified and not in the best structural condition.
This illustrates the importance of getting out and seeing what is left from the original two footers while it is still around.  Not everything can be saved.

Stephen Hussar replied:

Yes, Bill you're right -- my apologies. I guess unfortunately that one doesn't qualify for the then & now category anymore.
_________________
*                *                    *                   *
"Give me enough Swedes and whiskey and I'll build a railroad to Hell."
- James J. Hill

Stewart Rhine replied:

Bill,  As steve said, the Kingfield station is gone but the distinctive bay window with door was saved.  I have a recent photo of the bay window leaning against the front of the 1970 era Phillips station at Sandy River Railroad park.  I'll send it to Steve to post.  I have not been to Kingfield since the station was torn down but I will be going up there in May.

Steam replied:

I believe the SR&RL group did a pretty thorough documentation of Kingfield station. I've seen photos on their website showing lots of interior details, and I think measurements were taken as well.  All that is reassuring, but still it was sad to see the various buildings at Kingfield disappear over the years...mostly to make way for a car dealership's expansion!
Luckily, I managed to get color slides of them back in the early 1960s when they were in good shape.

Richard W. Symmes

Stephen Hussar replied:

Kingfield in 2004

Bay window from Kingfield in 2006

_________________
*                *                    *                   *
"Give me enough Swedes and whiskey and I'll build a railroad to Hell."
- James J. Hill

James Patten replied:

The bay window on the Phillips station seems out of place.

Bill Sample replied:

Just waiting for the a Kingfield replica to be built so it can find a home I guess.

Stewart Rhine replied:

I took the "now" view of the bay window in October and it was not attached to the building, just leaning against it.  I think John has plans to cut it into the front wall at some point.  It is rare in that bay windows usually have three windows instead of a door in the middle.

Mike Fox replied:

Still a nice example of the station. Wish I could have made it upcountry to see that before they did it in. I finally found Depot street in Kingfield last year. But that was during work and I never made it back up there in something more reasonable in size to sight see.
Mike

Josh Botting replied:

Where did you guys hike in from?

Reddington is a flight survival training base, not SEAL traning.

I duno who you should talk to.

Stewart Rhine replied:

Josh,  We walked up Sluice Hill from the Jct.  We didn't go any farther than the dam at the south edge of the lake.  You can see where the locals go in there all the time to fish, etc.  The SR&RL group from Phillips got permission from someone to hike into where the town was last summer.  John S. told me about that in October.  I don't remember who he got permission from but he said that it's not hard to get permission when no one is training up there.

2023

Archives (Other Maine 2ft) / Phillips depot property

« on: September 15, 2010, 07:55:42 PM »

MODERATORS NOTE:
Phillips depot property has been converted from the pre-July 2008 WW&F Discussion Forum.
Some formatting may have been removed or modified from the original postings that appear quoted in this topic.
Information contained within this post may be superseded by more recent postings and conversations.
ETSRRCo wrote:

On the SR&RL website they ,mention that they are negotiating the purchase of the former Phillips yard property. This is dated 2001. Any updates on this? Also what was the outcome with the Kingfield depot?

-Eric

James Patten replied:

I think they were unable to purchase the Phillips yard property.  The station itself (which has been moved from its original location) is owned by some civic group.

Kingfield depot was demolished either last year or early this year.  They were not able to save it, although they may have gotten a few key ingrediants from it.

Stewart, Zack, and I were up there probably 2 years ago now (Stewart, that was when we hiked in to Reddington, then drove to Rangely, around the mountains to Carrabasset, and down from there).  The depot building was intact but it didn't look too pretty.

Stewart Rhine replied:

Eric,  The Phillips station and yard property is still owned by the VFW.  They purchased the station, car shop and roundhouse from the scrapper in 1937.  They have 5 acres in total.  I was in the station two weeks ago and it is in good condition although modified with a drop ceiling in the main agents area.  The back hallway is original and is still in the SR&RL paint from the 1930's.  This is the hallway between the original station and the office addition that was added prior to WWI.  The VFW would like to move to another facility but is waiting for the local school district to build a new building.  When that happens, the old school will become available and the VFW can move into it.  There are no set dates as to when this will happen.

The Kingfield station was demolished as James noted.  The bay window was saved and is now sitting against the front of the "other" Phillips station which was built by Wes Spear about 1970.

James, That was a great trip when you went on with us.  I got some good photos of SR&RL things that day.  The trip we just took to Reddington was interesting in that we discovered the South bridge abutment at the Overton Stream.  It is about 400ft South of the remains of Reddington Dam and still has timbers on top of it.  I will post a photo of it soon.

Mike Fox replied:

James, when did they move the station in Phillips. The way things looked to me, it seemed like it was in the same location now as it was back then. And everything lined up with the right of way I thought.

Stewart Rhine replied:

Mike,  The Phillips station has never been moved.  It sits in it's original location.  At some point it was lifted and a new foundation was built  underneath.  I believe it was back in the 1970's or early 1980's.  That is the only major change I am aware of.

Other news - The car shop building was used as a basketball court for years.  That's why the building has a peaked roof.  It was closed in the early 1990's and has been vacant for years.  It has just been re-opened, cleaned up, had new windows installed.  A local group is now using it as a Rec Hall.  You can see through the windows and it looks good inside.

Stewart

Mike Fox replied:

Stewart,
Thanks for letting me know. The paint shop and a section house still exist there too. Are the abutments still there for the Iron bridge that was south of town? I have never walked there.
Mike

Stewart Rhine replied:

Mike,  There are a number of original SR&RL structures remaining around Phillips.  The operating railroad has most of them.  The freight house was moved and serves as the gift shop at the North end of their track.  The Phillips crew house was moved next to the current roundhouse.  The Reeds section house is along the mainline just North of the roundhouse. The paint shop you mention sits next to the grade on the South side of the river.  To it's left is the stone abutment for the South end of the SR&RL (former P&R) covered bridge.  You can see it from Main Street.

As to the bridge South of Phillips - the stone abutments are intact that held the iron bridge called Salmon Hole trestle.  Zack and I hiked in there a few years ago and found things in good shape except for a portion of the high fill was cut out for a woods road.  There was much trestle work on either side of the iron bridge.  It was all filled in to create the high fills on either side of the river.

Stewart

Mike Fox replied:

Thanks Stewart,
I'll have to take a hike some time myself. Something I'd like to see.
Mike

Stewart Rhine replied:

I forgot to mention that the Maplewood shelter is now at the SR&RL in Phillips.  The structure was moved and restored a few years ago.  It sits next to the passing siding by the roundhouse.  It resembles our Sheepscot / Alna Center shelters but has no interior sheathing.  The original SR&RL colors are still inside.

Stewart

2024

Archives (Worldwide 2ft) / Romanian narrow gauge logging in 2006

« on: September 15, 2010, 07:52:34 PM »

MODERATORS NOTE:
Romanian narrow gauge logging in 2006 has been converted from the pre-July 2008 WW&F Discussion Forum.
Some formatting may have been removed or modified from the original postings that appear quoted in this topic.
Information contained within this post may be superseded by more recent postings and conversations.
Stephen Hussar wrote:

This 76 cm (29.92 inch gauge!) logging operation in Romania is apparently still running steam on occasion.
http://www.railpictures.net/showphotos.php?city=Viseu%20de%20Sus&country=Romania

Joe Fox replied:

Those are some great photos on that site. Thanks for the link Steve.

Joe

2025

Archives (General) / Posting times

« on: September 15, 2010, 07:51:17 PM »

MODERATORS NOTE:
Posting times has been converted from the pre-July 2008 WW&F Discussion Forum.
Some formatting may have been removed or modified from the original postings that appear quoted in this topic.
Information contained within this post may be superseded by more recent postings and conversations.
James Patten wrote:

I've gotten a few emails saying that the times of posts seem to be in another time zone.

Seeing that I've only gotten the emails since the time change, I'm assuming it has to do with that.  I don't know if the board is smart enough to know about that.  Perhaps not.  I have shifted the board time by 1 hour toward GMT.

I'll know once I post this message if that works.

James Patten replied:

Apparently my shifting the time does work: I posted at 8 PM, it says 8 PM.

I may have to remember come April (or is it March) during the next time shift that we'll need to shift back.

fjknight replied:

James,

There are at least a couple of postings out there for times later today. The last one in '2 foot gauge model railroads' is 10:29PM and the one in 'What car should we build next?' is 9:47PM. While the one I posted earlier at 5:18PM is the actual EST time that it was posted. Looks like it must be using local PC time or there is some other bug.

I am posting this at 8:13PM EST.

Frank

James Patten replied:

I think the individual user can set their default times.  I know Ira's in Colorado (2 zones away) and there are some UK posters here.

Maybe I'll do some investigative work.

jwhoughton replied:

James,

I just noticed at the lower right of each page is a note that says "All times are GMT - 8 Hours".  Do you control that "timing" or is it built into the software somehow?

MikeW replied:

I believe the forum administrator can set the time zone in the Administraion Panel/Configuration page.  That may fix the problem.

Allan Fisher replied:

I am posting from California - 3 hours difference from Maine.

James Patten replied:

Well jwhoughton and Allan are both in California - 3 TZ away.  Mine reads GMT - 5 hours.  So what the board sees as the time may controlled by what your system's clock says.

Although I changed my time to GMT - 3 and did a reload of the page and it did not change.

Allan's post "I am from California" says 1:56 AM.  Allan did you post at 1:56 AM or did you post it at 10:56 PM?

Ira Schreiber replied:

It is 6:13 P.M. MST as I post this.
Ira

Ira Schreiber replied:

The system clock shows 8:13 P.M.EST so, there is the zonal differential. (How's that for teckie talk)
Ira

Stewart Rhine replied:

James, FYI, I just posted a message at 9:55 pm and the time stamp says it was posted 45 minutes later.

Another subject - What do you think about having a dedicated "general photo" section.  As you know, I have a bunch of Now & Then views taken 5 - 10 years apart.  Other members, like Steve H. and John M. have older shots to post.  Would it be better to have a photos section for these views?

Stewart

James Patten replied:

However your message was posted only a few minutes after your 9:55 message.  I suspect there's a time problem with the hardware on which this lives (which I have no control over).

I don't think we need a photo section, however anybody that starts a thread with pictures in them might want to put *PIC* or something like that on it to warn low bandwidth users.

Stewart Rhine replied:

James,  Why does the word "switchman" appear under certain members names?  Is it driven by the number of posts they have made?

Ira Schreiber replied:

Thanks for asking, Stewart, as I had the same question.

James Patten replied:

There's a ranking system which assigns titles based on the number of posts.  At 50 you are given "Switchman".  It goes up from there.  I'll be mysterious and let you discover them for yourselves.

Dave Buczkowski replied:

And I thought there was a new position at the Museum that I wouldn't qualify for!
Dave