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601
Work and Events / Whitefield Section House - Official Work Thread
« on: December 13, 2008, 04:14:40 AM »
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Mike Fox wrote:
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All,
I just had a thought. Vern Shaw built the handcar this year and was just posting in the car storage topic when this idea came to me. How about a replicated Head Tide Section house to put the handcar in. I see the handcar being used as a table or what have you while at the museum. A replicated section house would be a nice place to keep that. And keep it looking nice. Any thoughts on this??
Mike

Stewart Rhine replied:
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Mike,  Back a few weeks ago this was discussed on one of the threads.  It is a good idea.  I suggested that we build a section house on the East side of the mainline in the level area just North of the water tank.  A larger one would house the handcar, air car, and fire car. A jigger track would be run from the house out to the East rail of the main.  The area would be planked over to aid in turning the cars.  Wayne has a plan to build a handcar turntable which would enable the crews to turn the heavier cars.

James Patten replied:
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Vern's handcar is only the beginning.  Vern has plans on building another handcar, plus taking the parts of two velocipedes and making ... two whole velocipedes out of them.

Then there's Leon's railcar, which once it arrives and gets wheels will need a place to live.  This first railcar is one much like the SR&RL #2 owned by the Owl's Head Transportation Museum.  Leon would like to build a second one when he's done with this, much more like the Sewall inspection car.

So we need to think ahead for storage for these.

Joe Fox replied:
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Any locomotive, such as the inspection car that Leon is building, should go in the round house when and if it is built. Until that point, the car would need a place to live. However, like James and Stewart have said, the work flats and the hand car(s) can go in a building much like a section house like my dad has suggested.

Joe

Mike Fox replied:
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Wayne has suggested something largher than Head Tide might be in order. Like the one in Whitefield. Unless there is another picture of one someplace, the only photo I could find was the one by the Iron bridge.
To me, this does not look larger so it cannot be the right one. I'm sure we can come up with something that will fit our needs and look authentic at the same time. Guess I'll have to do some research.
Mike

Wayne Laepple replied:
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I don't have any adequate way to scale it out, but just looking at the door on the Whitefileld section house, it looks to be at least half again as big as the Head Tide building. It looks like its about 10 or 12 by 16 feet to me. But maybe it's because the Head Tide building is entered from the gable end. The Head Tide building may be "deeper."

Either one would be large enough for the handcar and the two velocipedes, since the outriggers are removable. Eventually, the Model T should have its own building or live in the roundhouse.

Stewart Rhine replied:
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The section/handcar house could have 2 doors with 2 jigger tracks.  If the building was 14X16 with two tracks, you could store one car behind the other and everything would be on the rails.  The only problem with this arrangement is when the car you need is behind another car and a double move is required.  The 2 door handcar house would allow storing 4 cars or the spare set of trucks under cover.  It wouldn't be prototypical but we could make it look good.  A higher roof pitch would allow space for storing parts or supplies, like oil for the air car, on shelves above the cars.

Wayne Laepple replied:
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If the drawings of the Head Tide section house on page 90 of Volume I of "Narrow gauge in the Sheepscot Valley" are accurate, the building is 10 x 16 feet. The building at Whitefield seems to be about the same size, but is configured differently. Do any drawings exist of that style? Either one would be able to house two handcars and two velocipedes. A leanto could be attached to one side to shelter the pushcars. I'm not certain the compressor car and fire car could be swung on the lightweight turntable, however. It's basically a wooden "H" with strap steel on the wheel bearing surface and not meant for heavy-duty use.

Sections houses often featured a bench across the back or along one side, where the trackemen could repair their tools. Tools were stored in racks or stacked neatly in the corners. Since we would have a tool house just across the tracks, perhaps only rarely used items should be stored in the section house. Let's try to keep both places neat and uncluttered!

James Patten replied:
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We believe that the Head Tide section house still exists.  Just to the north of the Horse People's house (the cape at the corner of 218 and the road into Head Tide) is a house with two outbuildings, one or both of which might possibly be original railroad buildings.

Incidentally, this house (and property) are for sale.

Wayne Laepple replied:
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Sounds like it's time for some industrial archeology disguised as a house-buying trip!

Joe Fox replied:
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If you guys give me all of the materials that you would like to use, such as the size of the wood, and any type of material, the size of the building, and I can give you guys the ruff estimating figure. Talk to you later.

Joe

Stephen Hussar replied:
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Sounds like it's time for some industrial archeology disguised as a house-buying trip!
This is a very small house in need of some serious TLC. I believe the asking price is around $100K...

And speaking of extant railroad buildings, while driving up to Albion we noticed that all the old structures along the ROW in Whitefield have either fallen down or been bulldozed. One of these was rumored to have been used by the WW&F as a machine shop.

Wayne Laepple replied:
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Steve H. told me earlier today he'd try to get a couple of photos of the alleged Head Tide section house this weekend. Wouldn't it be cool to retreive it after all these years and put it back in service, albeit at Sheepscot? (At least for now.....)

Allan Fisher replied:
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It is the bigger of the two shanties at the Gray House, and is no larger that 10 X 14 if that.

I have been inside , and I doubt any of the original wood is still inm the building as it was rebuilt about thjrity years ago and also 5 years ago.

Stephen Hussar replied:
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I believe a small amount of ROW is included in the parcel. And the roadbed is right behind the house.  

Josh Botting replied:
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We looked at the depressing little house last year about this time.  The house is terribly small with a very low cealing, and is very over priced.  The agent claimed that the small building was built as a temp home for the people while building the house.  But I don't know, it looks oldish, but you never know.  30 yrs ago is about when the house was built.  The property line is to the center of the ROW.  There was however little land associated with it, and whats there is rubish filled.

BM1455 replied:
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The overall size of the original sectionhouse was 10 X 16 or there abouts so Alan's guess is very close.  When rebuilt they probably just re-used the sills and floor.  (Perhaps the beams as well?)

Perhaps we could get a member interested in this lot but as previously mentioned, the house needs a lot of TLC.  We tried last year but to no avail.  One issue is that the site may also be on the location, or close to where the original station was, which would rais other issues about keeping the house there.  The asking price is currently way too high....dreamland price.  If this lot could be had more reasonably it would be a good aquisition for the organization's long term success as it could provide a good end point or terminal location.
EL

Wayne Laepple replied:
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So are you guys saying, Josh and E., that the section house remains don't resemble the original building any more? If so, I guess this thread ends and we can move on to a discussion of building a replica of Head Tide or some other section house.

Mike Fox replied:
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Well going by that building is out then if has been extensively remodeled. So starting back with the approx 10X16 figures for the head tide section house, it does not seem big enough for what everyone wants to put in it.  How big would it need to become to be useful to us? I think a 14X20 built to look like the original accept with 2 tracks should give room enough for about 4 items. Maybe more. I think it is agreed the ideal place for it is just north of the water tower. Plenty of room once the tank is installed on the water tower. Any thoughts??
Mike

BM1455 replied:
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I actually like the idea of just sticking to a replica of the Head Tide building for now.  First of all, we are starting to have the yard area become a urban planning zone with all of the proposed construction that people are talking about.  One of the things visitors/ railfans always say about us is that they like our museum because we are not just "collecting" buildings and moving them to our headquarters area, a la Sheepscot.  Another issue is that if we make a replica, we could someday move it to the original location if we can get there.  (I think that if we realy want to, we could get there)  Finaly, I have been involved in the veloceped project for a long time.  I have heard of a/the hand car project for almost as long, and the same goes for the railcar.  None of these things has moved along very quickly to say the least so why get building large structures that will change the yard area drasticly for things we don't know we will even see for years?  The veloceped was made for us in the mid 1990's and it still is not done.  (10 years of no progress beond what the guy who generously made it for us back then was able to do himself)  Vern has made one handcar and it is great but when will the other be built?
This is not intended as any slam on any one who is involved in these projuects.  It is just to point out that there is a huge laps in time between when these klinds of projects get mentioned, and when they actully get done.  By the time they are a reality there may be better places to but one or two of these things besides Sheepscot.  (How about a top of the mountain handcar/ section house, or some other place like the real railroad would have done instead of making a small city at Sheepscot.)
EL

Wayne Laepple replied:
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I'm all for a replica of the Head Tide section house, which was 11 x 16, according to Stewart, who found that information on the ICC valuation report. If it is located north of the water tank on the east side of the main track, it can house the handcar and the two velocipedes, as well as some of the tools currently kept in the tool house. I envision it as a place to keep items not used on a regular basis, such as the insta-tracks and the rail bender and some of the track jacks. On operating days, the doors could be opened and the handcar rolled part way out for viewing by passengers. And in the future, it could be loaded on a flatcar and taken back to Head Tide! Personally, I wouldn't be in favor of putting a "working" section house at Alna Center or Top of the Mountain for fear that unauthorized visitors would break in or set the place on fire or shoot it full of holes.

Josh Botting replied:
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My recolection of the "section house" was that there was a hodgepodge of floor, sitting directly on the ground, not necessarily makeing it to the walls.  From inside it was clear that the walls were supported by a random slection of stones, the lumber didn't look particularly old, however I was only there for a few mins.  There was definatly a new and old section of the building.....

Stewart Rhine replied:
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I still like the idea of a 14X20 two door, two track section house.  It would be a scaled down version of the SR&RL's Phillips freight house with the doors at each corner of the front.  The doors would slide towards the center so both could be open at the same time.  Each end would have a window for light.  Shelves would be built in the back and over the car storage area.  If the flooring was 2X6 or 2X10 hard wood, cars could be placed anywhere inside the building.    Roll the cars up the jigger track and into the building then position them on their flanges.  Plank over the junction of the jigger tracks and East rail of the mainline for easier turning of the cars.  This would give us a good building for most of our smaller cars.  As I said before, why place a 5 foot high car in a building like our engine house.  It's a waste of space.

I agree with Wayne.  Any building up the line that looks like it holds tools or equipment will get broken into - or worse.

BM1455 replied:
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This idea was posted twice by people and has some merit but...

"I agree with Wayne. Any building up the line that looks like it holds tools or equipment will get broken into - or worse"

....have we had any trouble at Alna Ctr even with a publicly accessible road into it?  None that I'm aware of.  The top of the mountain is on private property so I doubt we would have much trouble there.  It is also a long hike for vandels who usualy are quite lazy.  There are other locations available like perhaps at the proposed siding near cockeye curve.  This would be a very safe place for a tool house once we have the freindly neighbors we think we will soon have.
EL

Stewart Rhine replied:
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Hall's would be a good place for a WW&F style 11X16 section house - especially if we build the siding.  Once we have more than one handcar one could be stored there.  One handcar should always be kept at Sheepscot.

I am not opposed to seeing a section house at Alna Center or on the TOM siding.  I think it would be useful and look great.   The Top of the Mountain area is remote and would probably be safe but I wouldn't put anything in there that is valuable or can't be easily replaced.

Mike Fox replied:
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The only problem I can forsee about putting a handcar in a section house outside of Sheepscot is this. If someone should break in and get the handcar out on the line and no one know about it until it's too late. We don't run fast enough to turn it into splinters but I bet the paint could get scratched if left on the main in a poor spot.
Mike

Wayne Laepple replied:
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As inventive a bunch as we seem to be, I'll bet we can (a) come up with a way to secure a handcar so it can't be removed from the building without knowing the secret password, and/or (b) figure out some way to lock the mechanism so that even if it is removed from the section house and put on the track, it won't move!

Mike Fox replied:
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Wayne,
I thought of that after I posted. Like BM1455 said, Top of the Mountain would be a good spot for a second section house. Pattern that one after the one that was located by the Iron Bridge in Whitefield. And the one in Sheepscot should resemble an enlarged version of the Head Tide section house. The average person will not notice that it is 3 or 4 feet larger than the original.
Mike

Mike Fox replied:
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With the nice photos posted under the Motor Pool topic, I figured it was time for some more ideas on storage of these little for wheelers. Leon has put many countless hours into that car. And it looks great. I would like to see it kept that way. As well as the hand car. Vern and others did a wonderfull job with that. We should be able to have a building to put them in. To protect them from all things, us.
I don't know how many times I would walk through the shop last year and see the handcar being used for a table or a bench. Hopefully not a workbench but stuff was set on it. I figure if we can get it in it's own building, it will look great for a lot longer period. I would hate to see Leons car in the shop with something leaned up against it.
And I'm not saying this is something that needs to be built this year but we should get the ball rolling so maybe this fall we could get started. Get the floor done before frost sets in in good shape and build it over the winter. Thoughts???
Mike

Wayne Laepple replied:
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If a replica of the Whitefield section house was constructed, it would provide storage space for the handcar and velocipede, and in the winter, the fire car and possibly the air compressor car could be housed there as well. That would free up space in the shop for the Model T railcar. When the roundhouse is built, the Model T could be kept there. Or a small shed for it could be placed on a radial track off the turntable.

Stewart Rhine replied:
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Wayne has a good point.  As most everyone knows the discussion has been towards building a new handcar shed / section house when the water tank is complete.  That means that the new handcar shed could be built this Fall.  It would go just North of and on the same side as the water tank.  There are plans (somewhat rough) for a replica of the Whitefield section house and these will be presented to the Board this year.  If the Board agrees with the plan as proposed, the shed will be built.  The question is when.  Part of the "if" in this project is funding.  Ira has already said he will persue the NRHS Grant if he is appointed by the Board.  There aren't many projects that $5,000 would take from start to finish but the car shed is one.  It will be a big advantage to have the shed to house the handcar and velocipede, and the fire car, air car in the Winter.  As I have said before, you don't store a 5 foot tall car in an 18 foot stall if you can avoid it

Mike Fox replied:
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I talked with Zack today and he feels the same way. Whitefield seems to be what he likes. A single door structure for the hand car and Velocopede when they are done. I like the looks of the Head Tide sectionhouse myself and I think it would work good for this pupose but that is my own opinion. Either way, this would be a welcomed addition to our storage options.
Mike

Stewart Rhine replied:
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Mike, I like the head Tide building too but the Whitefield shed is a better fit for Sheepscot.   The Head Tide shed would work well at TOM or at the Head Tide end of the line.  I think it will be built too, just not sure where or when.

Mike Fox replied:
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Stewart,
The reason I like it is because the of the roof. I like to be able to walk into a building without the rain dripping on your head from the eaves. I believe both buildings are the same size though the door at headtide looks taller. But after looking at both buildings and knowing what is desired, Whitefield will give us more options.
Mike

Stephen Hussar replied:
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There is absolutely a great need to have more indoor storage space, especially for the handcar, firecar, and compressor car, but isn't the view looking north getting crowded? Could the current section house be moved to a spot further up the ROW (like TOM)? And this reproduction Whitefield building take its place in the yard? (across from the water tank) Not that this would be all that aesthetically offensive , but I'm just curious what everyone thinks...

Mike Fox replied:
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Steve,
The way Zack was talking yesterday, I am under the impression you won't be able to see it from Sheepscot. It will be North of the water tower and I think the water tower will hide it pretty well.
Mike

Wayne Laepple replied:
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Having seen a sketch plan of the site, Mike is correct. The new tool house would be out of the line of sight from Sheepscot, set back from the track and hidden from the south behind the base of the water tank. In my opinion, it would be nice to someday relocate the Sheepscot section house across the track to a position just north of the new building.

Joe Fox replied:
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In my opinion, I think that the section house should stay where it is, because that is near the location it was originally.

Joe

Stephen Hussar replied:
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In my opinion, I think that the section house should stay where it is, because that is near the location it was originally.
Joe
Very good point -- I'm sold!  

Stewart Rhine replied:
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Joe has the right idea.  I see this way - the current tool house is our only original WW&F  structure.  It should stay where it is for a number of reasons.  First, it was originally at Sheepscot.  Also, it is safer in the yard than out along the line.

The new handcar shed / section house will fit well into the location just North of the water tank.  As Wayne said, you won't be able to see it from  the yard because of the water tank.  It was common practice to pair buildings on the WW&F.  The original Wiscasset yard had a number of job-related buildings next to each other.  We are recreating the same thing at Sheepscot.  Of course the car shed can be moved at some point in the future if that becomes necesary.

As to comparing the Head Tide and Whitefield section houses.  They were about the same size but Head tide had the short side to the tracks while Whitefield had the long side to the tracks.  The Whitefield structure fits better with the available space next to the water tank.  Mike has a point about getting wet.  Maybe we can have a small tin rain gutter over the door.

Wayne Laepple replied:
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While the Head Tide and Whitefield section houses were about the same size, the Whitefield building offers more usable floor space. The Head Tide building had double doors that hinged inward, reducing the floor space available. The sliding door takes up no floor space when opened.

As was mentioned somewhere above, perhaps some day we can build a replica of the Head Tide building and situate it at Halls, Top of the Mountain or at Route 218.

602
Archives (Museum) / Sutters Crossing - Then & Now 2 *PICS*
« on: December 13, 2008, 04:12:19 AM »
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Sutters Crossing - Then & Now 2 *PICS* has been converted from the pre-July 2008 WW&F Discussion Forum.
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Stephen Hussar wrote:
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Sutters Crossing 1998. Photo taken standing on the grade looking north.

And almost the same angle 3 years later in October 2001

Photos: Stewart Rhine

Joe Fox replied:
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What a wonderful change. The only way it could get any better, is with #9 under steam, and an antique car.

Joe

Mike Fox replied:
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That will come with time.....

James Patten replied:
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We've had the antique car there before, meeting #10.

Stewart Rhine replied:
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I have shots of number 10 meeting the Model T Depot Hack at Sutter's during the picnic one year.  I also have some photos of the SR&RL rail car heading South through the crossing.  I may send them to Steve at some point.   I used a "survey style" photo because it gives you a better view up the line for a Then & Now comparison.

Joe Fox replied:
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Oh. I have seen the photos of #10 going through the crossing with one of Boothbay's model T's waiting for the train to go by. Does anybody know if Boothbay will lend us the model T's again for the Annual Picnic in August of 2007?

Joe

James Patten replied:
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I'm sure if we ask nicely they will.  Brian may have his house by the tracks built then so we can stage a "Fanslau's Crossing" meet.

Joe Fox replied:
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What do you mean by that James? And where is Brian going to have his house at?

Joe

603
Archives (Museum) / New Roundhouse
« on: December 13, 2008, 04:11:22 AM »
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MikeW wrote:
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What about the possibility of building a roundhouse?  I realize that it may be more effort than a metal building, but it has some advantages too.  First, it would be a building that would be interesting to visitors.  Second, as expansion is needed additional stalls could be added.  Third, it is more compact in that a ladder track is not required.

bperch replied:
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To see how well the roundhouse idea fits in, see what has been done in Phillips both as to use of the site and how the building is utilized.

MikeW replied:
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I'm very familiar with the "New" Old Stone Fort in Phillips.  It has been a huge improvement for preserving the equipment by getting it out of the weather.  And it looks good too.  BTW, I helped clear the large trees growing up in its foundation and turntable pit many years ago, but was gone to college around the time Al started building it.

I think the utilization would be a bit different than Phillips since SR&RL uses it for a shop and everything, whereas WW&F would primarily use the new building for storage if I am not mistaken.  Most 2ft roundhouses seem to have been wood, but a block building could be built that would blend in well.

MikeW replied:
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Here is what I was thinking.  The team track would be a good place for coaling etc.  Of course, nothing I drew is to scale!


Mike Fox replied:
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2FTMainaiac and all,
That is exactly what I was thinking of. I was just trying to think of the best way to explain it. The only thing you did different was the run around track.  And maybe it should be designed to look like the one the was in Wiscasset originally. It burned and took #6 and #7 with it. It was a 3 stall single pitch structure with shingled exterior. A picture can be found in Narrow Guage in the Sheepscot Valley, Vol. 1, pg. 54. A good shot of the turntable is on 56. That would look nice in the percival purchase. But this would only work with the idea of extending the current enginehouse North and South to protect the current Rolling stock.
Mike

sgprailfan replied:
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A round house for coaches?

James Patten replied:
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A three stall engine house is currently plenty for us.  Both mechanical engines can fit in one stall.  Probably #10 can squeeze in with #9 because it's small.  That leaves a stall open for #11!

In Wiscasset, directly across the turntable was the coaling shed.  But it doesn't matter how you squeeze it in, really, it wouldn't really work for us.

Wayne Laepple replied:
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At this time, the need is for a structure to house rolling stock, not a place for locomotives. I believe a roundhouse may be in the future, but it's still a long way down the road, after a bunch of other things happen first. And building a roundhouse on the Percival site would require a huge amount of earth moving.

Jason M Lamontagne replied:
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There has been talk of a roundhouse at Sheepscot Station for some time.  It would be for active locomotives.

I'm greatly in favor of it for a number of reasons:

1. Remove fire danger from the current shop.
2. Make more working space in the current shop.
3. Provide opportunity for a replica of another original RR building- the Wiscasset round house.  Again, this would be a fire proof building on the inside- steel, thick sheetrock, what ever is needed- but wood sided on the outside.
4.  This is the big one to me- opportunity for a gallows style turntable.

There's already been some talk of a potential location for this building, other than what's been mentioned here, but really that is in a lot of flux.

A little correction on some previous thoughts I'd seen here, furthering the shop extension idea.  Extending the shop as has been discussed would add a total of 40 feet in length to the building, giving us 93 feet.  Recognizing that flat cars, excursion cars, and four-wheel carts of various purposes are all outside storage items, such an extension leaves room for all our equipment and leaves room for the two cars we wanted to build as well.

No matter if the shop is extended or a seperate building is built first, we know we want the current shop as a wood and machine shop, for which there is insufficient room.  This means that at some point in time, no matter what, we will want to extend it and utilize some of the dead outside space both north and south of it.  Given the museum's current skill set and financial resources are far better primed to tackle this project than the seperate building, I'm in favor of extending the shop first.

I'm not deathly against the seperate building idea.  It has good merit.  I just wish the extension idea wasn't so quickly dismissed in this forum, especially when it is popular with many of the volunteers at the RR.  And if we end up with it, I could only imagine it fireproofed on the inside but wood sided all around the outside, as a compromise on this issue.

I look forward to getting together at Sheepscot Station with some of you and some others who can't interact on this forum to look at the actual situation there and developing a solid compromise on the whole subject.  I suspect this will be settled over the course of next year, and that the project may be on tap as following the water tower project- course bathrooms have to fit in there also.

see ya
Jason

MikeW replied:
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Here is a clearer sketch.  I downloaded the actual orthophoto from MEGIS so I could use it in my mapping software with the correct scale.  The turntable is 32', and the roundhouse is 40' deep.  I modified it to 3 stalls per Mike Fox's suggestion.  I included an outside track in the area where the roundhouse could be expanded in the future.  I also sketched in the coal and ballast loading area next to the team track and show how it would be accessed over the turntable lead.

- Mike White


MikeW replied:
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I forgot to add that my suggestion for the roundhouse is in addition to extending the car shop.  The car shop would come first, the roundhouse would be later when needed.

Jason M Lamontagne replied:
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All,

I must say I rather like Mike W.'s idea for the engine house, with the run-around, on the Percival purchase.  This isn't where we were thinking of putting it, but it is a clean solution, compacts things a little less, gives prime location for coaling facilities, but would still be in the public eye with the parking lot behind Clarissa's house.

If we were to extend the shop right now, build the round house in the near term, and still found ourselves lacking on storage, a second track off the run-around to the car storage area could be arranged, I'd think.

see ya
Jason

Joe Fox replied:
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If a round house is made for the locomotives, is it possible to have a steam up bay with a stack coming out of the roof, or would that be to much of a fire hazzard? I have a photo of Steamtowns chimeny for the smoke to go through, if any body's interested.

Joe

Ira Schreiber replied:
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Joe,
A smokejack, which is a vented pipe through the roof, is used to eliminate smoke in a roundhose/engine house.
You can see them in old photos of the Wiscasset engine house.

Stephen Hussar replied:
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Joe, one of the main reasons behind building a roundhouse would be to be able to "fire-up" inside.

Mike Fox replied:
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Wayne,
Do they offer a metal building that looks like the Wiscasset Roundhouse? Or could one be designed? Cedar Shingled look and all? After living in Maine all my life, accept for the time I put in for Uncle Sam, I can honestly tell you, I live in a wood house. Have always lived in a wooden houses. In the woods. The chance of a fire consuming a building from the outside is minimal. In 20 years on the local fire department, I have not seen a building that was consumed from a brushfire. I have see brushfires started from house fires though.
As for the Roundhouse, maybe some lawn or gravel drive all the way around to act as a buffer is the way to go. And since the fire danger increases while someone is there, the chances of someone seeing it before it gets too far out of hand are all that much greater. And at the current enginehouse, it would be all but impossible for an external fire to reach the building.
And as for firing up inside a building, other steam railroads do it every day. There are things in 2006 that were not available in 1931. I'm sure that it can be made as fire proof as possible.
Mike

MikeW replied:
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A simple solution for external fires is to sheath the building using fiber cement siding (e.g., Hardie Siding).  It comes in a variety of styles, including cedar shingle and clapboard.  It looks excellent (Bowdoin College uses this for all of its "wood" buildings such as the McLellan Building near where the old MEC depot used to be).  It is 100% fire resistant.

James Patten replied:
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I have split off the roundhouse discussions into it's own thread.

Jason M Lamontagne replied:
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I have to agree with Mike Fox on nearly all counts-

The greatest fire danger is when people are there- firing a locomotive.

We'll never leave an engine in the house with a live fire unattended.

I don't know about the other steam crew members but I have always looked forward to firing up inside- it can be pretty miserable at times firing up outside.

I also agree with a reasonable firebreak around the building, and that wood structures consumed from environmental fires is not very common in Maine- in fact, I've never heard of it.  Not to say it couldn't happen- but I don't think we should live our lives in that level of fear unless it is truly warranted from past experience.

I think a steel framed building on a dirt floor with board and batton or cedar shingle siding would be appropriate.  There was also talk of brick, modeled after an engine house from one of the other Maine Two Footers; this sounds ok too.  I'm personnally not in favor of solutions that involve look-alike siding; I have a believe in offering a genuine experience to our members and visitors, which to me includes things like materials used in building construction (steel frame is a compromise).

I suggest that we respect the risk of fire without living in complete fear of it.  One could argue that we risk a major train wreck every time a wheel turns or explosion every time a boiler is fired.

see ya
jason

Stewart Rhine replied:
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Jason, You said it very well.  I think a steel framed, wooden roundhouse would work well for us.  Mike stated that he has never seen a structure fire started by a woods/wild fire.  I have been a volunteer firefighter in Maryland for over 32 years and I have never seen a structure catch fire from the surrounding woods either.  Enough clearing around the structure will better protect it.  A brick roundhouse would be nice but I don't think it would fit into the theme of structures at Sheepscot.  If we get a large grant it could be considered but it would be too expensive otherwise.  I think the  round house should built to resemble the original at Wiscasset and be close to the yard.  Here's a few reasons.  (1) Less expense in feeding power and water to the structure.  (2) Better visibility to visitors.  The sight of an engine working out of the house and being turned on the turntable would be a BIG plus to the visitors experience.  (3) Transfer of parts and equipment from the car, wood or machine shop to the roundhouse would be easier.  (I am not advocating building the roundhouse next to the shop, there must be some space for safety ).  (4) a drive could be built to the back of the building for truck access.  If one of the stalls had a run through track this could come out into the drive area.

John McNamara replied:
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I don't know whether this question is appropriate to the round house discussion or the car storage discussion, but the question is "What goes where?" Presently, we have four pieces of motive power (9, 10, 51, 52), two coaches, two flat cars, a box car, and a caboose. There has been talk of a third steam engine, a drop-bottom gondola, and another coach.

Plainly, the expanded engine house will continue to include a machine shop and probably a small kitchen. However, there have also been suggestions that it include a car shop and/or carpenter shop at some point in the future.

It sounds like we are talking about a large round house like the SR&RL "stone fort" or two buildings, a round house and a car storage building. In either case, any plans for a roundhouse should include storage for all of the above, either within the roundhouse or elsewhere.

Stewart Rhine replied:
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I think the roundhouse and car house should be two seperate buildings.  The roundhouse would be near or next to the yard while the car house would be built back from the yard, up on the hill as has been discussed.

Joe Fox replied:
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John,

The round house would only be for locomtives I believe, so that the present engine house would be for the rolling stock just to help clerify things for you.  As I said, that is what I think because it would go together really good I think.

If a round house is built, I must agree wtih Stewart, that we should have it clearly visible to the public. When I go to a railroad with a turn table, I love to watch it be turned, especially when it is being pushed by hand.

Joe

Ira Schreiber replied:
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Basically the roundhouse would be for the motive power and track equipment. The building would be sited for exposure to the public.

The car house/shop would be for storage with the location not generally in the public view.
I believe this is the general concensus.

John McNamara replied:
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So far I have only seen diagrams for a car house or a roundhouse. Since there seems to be some consensus for a car house and a roundhouse, could some of the folks that make those nifty diagrams make one for the car house and roundhouse case? Thanks in advance

Wayne Laepple replied:
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OK, I'll concede the exterior fire matter. On the other hand, I think we're putting the cart way before the horse to talk about a roundhouse. We need to enlarge the shop at the very least, and we need a carhouse for safe storage of our valuable antique rolling stock.

John McNamara replied:
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Yes. I think there is general agreement that shop building extensions north and south are the first order of business. I thought that the general discussion beyond that was what to do after doing the shop building extension.

We started out with a bunch of proposals for various radii of curvature to get into car storage buildings located at various points on the Percival and Boudin lands. From there we got talking about roundhouses. The reason I brought up the "What goes where?" question was that I was concerned that some of the roundhouse proposals seemed to conflict with the aforementioned car storage building proposals.

As long as everyone is talking about both a car storage building and a roundhouse, both of which are substantially later in time than the shop extension project, then I think that we are all whistling the same tune, singing from the same hymnnal, etc.

Mike Fox replied:
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I think that talking about both the roundhouse and the car shop ideas gets the ideas going. I am under the impression that the car storage would be the shop expansion. Maybe we would need more storage later and we could construct another structure someplace. But if we have a roundhouse some day, that would free up space in the present and soon to be expanded shop. But that of course is years down the road. Getting as much under cover for preservation is the most urgent.
Mike

MikeW replied:
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I think the roundhouse should be for locomotives, and the existing shed be for cars and shop.  Thus, it makes sense to expand the existing building first, then build a roundhouse, then later build the additional car shed when and if needed.  This will also get the engines out into a facility that is designed for their storage and use (see the whole smoke jack discussion!).

The way I see it, if you build the second car shed before a roundhouse, you miss an opportunity to add a prototypical building to the site in the nearer term, perhaps even for the very long term.

BTW, this is an excellent discussion.  I am currently or formerly involved in other groups, and these never have such healthy debate.

fjknight replied:
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Quote
So far I have only seen diagrams for a car house or a roundhouse. Since there seems to be some consensus for a car house and a roundhouse, could some of the folks that make those nifty diagrams make one for the car house and roundhouse case? Thanks in advance /i]

John,

That is why I plan on taking a trip to the museum on Friday to do some more accurate measurements. I tried to do a CAD drawing of a roundhouse along with a car storage building and I was having a hard time making everything fit. I want to get an accurate drawing of a turnout and the corner locations of the properties so I can say with some confidence that both buildings will fit along with reasonable curves and switches. Assuming I get the needed dimensions on Friday I should be able to produce a drawing or two buy Sunday at the latest. Right now my thoughts are to put a roundhouse on Percival and the car storage on Boudin.

Frank Knight

Ira Schreiber replied:
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Mike Fox has hit the nail on the head. His summary is exactly the way I see it.
This is a "what if" discussion.....
The expansion of the present building is what I mentioned in an earlier post as the first project AFTER we determine everything is legal.
It could be substantially built in 2007, if all the pieces fall in place.

Bill Sample replied:
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Regarding the discussion of fire dangers with wooden structures, perhaps someone on this list is familiar with various ways of treating wood with some sort of fire retardant coating.  If there is a way this could be done in a reasonable manner, then shouldn't Jason's plan of historically accurate replication should be the way to go?

Something like 25 years ago, the group I am active with (RMNE, then located at the Valley RR) rebuilt a flagstop station and coated the interior with surplus fire resistant paint, which was being disposed of by a power plant where a one of our members (RMNE and now also WW&F) worked.  I assume that something like that would still be available.

Joe Fox replied:
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If it is, then that should really be looked into so that the building, like Bill said, could be replicated.

Joe

Josh Botting replied:
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In addition, it would be nice to seperate the workshops from car/engine storage.  Since based on RR history lessons fires seem to be quite common, it would be nice to have assets seperated..... meaning that the one large building could result in one large fire, and loosing everything.

fjknight replied:
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Finally finished the drawing showing the proposed roundhouse on Percival while retaining access to car storage on Boudin. This drawing also reflects some fine tuning of the corners based on measurements taken on the property with a little help from James and Zack. Thanks Guys!

I still had to move the switch to get to car storage on Boudin south of the current top of the yard switch. Even though it uses a 20 degree curve I did manage to add easements.

Frank Knight


Mike Fox replied:
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Looks good Frank. Nice location for the car storage. Out of the way and perhaps almost out of sight.
Mike

Mike Fox replied:
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On another thread we started disussing this and I figured it would be better to return the roundhouse to it's thread. Please remember when viewing, everything is approximate. The property lines are not exact and neither are any of the building or track locations. Nothing is to scale and is for visual aid purposes only. If the buildings go over a property line, that does not mean that is where the building will go or where the property line actually is. Once we get an idea of what everyone likes, then maybe Frank can draw one up that is more to scale and include proper property lines instead of estimating them.
Mike.







fjknight replied:
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Mike,

Even without doing a formal drawing I can see that none of the proposed turntable locations will fit inside the property lines. If somebody can come up with a plan that looks like it will fit then I will put it in 3rd PlanIt to check the curves and turnouts.

Frank

James Patten replied:
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The west boundary of the museum with the Percival houselot is approx. 20 feet off of the southwest corner of the shop building.  There is no way you will fit a turntable within our property line.

Mike Fox replied:
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So our current volunteer parking is on Clarrissa's land then? That's what I was going by. Maybe things will have to go north like they were before, on the Percival purchase.
Mike

Mike Fox replied:
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Now staying within the property lines, I have come up with this. But if the existing shop building is expanded, there might not be a need for the car barn next to the turntable. Again, just a suggestion. And everything is approximate.
Mike

fjknight replied:
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Mike,

Looks like it might really work. I'll put it in 3rd PlanIt first chance I get.

Frank

Mike Fox replied:
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Don't hurry Frank. I just did that to see what people thought. But it would be nice to know if it will work.
Mike

fjknight replied:
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Mike,

Here it is. I could not fit the storage building onto the Percival Purchase so I slid it over to the Boudin Property. Looks like the roundhouse would fit easily in that area.

Frank


gordon cook replied:
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If I may, I would put on the list of 'wants' for the new roundhouse that it be as close to the shop as is reasonable. There's almost nothing more aggravating and time consuming than having to walk a few hundred feet to retrieve a wrench or use a tool when you're in the middle of trying to fix something.
Having the roundhouse closer to the shop will reduce the wasted time before fireup and at other times during the operating season.

Stephen Hussar replied:
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Excellent point, Gordon. I suppose I'm guilty of being too lazy to go back and read all the old posts on this topic, but was there ever any discussion of having a machine shop attached to the roundhouse? That would seem to make sense. And I love the idea of a run-through track with access out the back door to Cross Rd (I believe Stewart, you posted something to that effect).

And lastly a question for the engineers and machinists out there: in a perfect world how much space would you ideally like to have for a machine shop...remember how spacious the shop seemed when new?


Mike Fox replied:
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I think the only way to get it close is to build it next to the shop or facing East like Stewart likes in the top drawing. But there is not enough room. I redid the property lines but they are not correct. I figured the museum owned where the volunteer parking is and I guess we don't. So without purchasing more land, I don't think it can be put in that area. That is why I went onto the percival purchase with it. Something we already own. But this is way down the road and who knows what the museum will own then.
Mike

Or this

Glenn Christensen replied:
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Hi Guys,

Might I suggest that when we plan any new RR equipment-related facility, that we leave room for a visitor's gallery.  This would be consistent with our goal to enrich the visitor experience through education and direct volunteer contact.

In my experience, few museums can do this.  It would further help differentiate us from others.  Such contact could also facilitate volunteer recruitment.

Sincerely,
Glenn

Mike Fox replied:
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I was under the impression that a visitors gallery is planned for a yet undisclosed location somewhere near the museum. Am I mistaken?
Mike

Stephen Hussar replied:
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I may be wrong but I think by "visitor's gallery" Glenn means a dedicated place inside the enginehouse or restoration shop where visitors can view get up close and personal without being in danger or being in the way(?)
The balcony in the roundhouse at Steamtown comes to mind.


Photo:Chuck Harrington

Glenn Christensen replied:
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Steve is correct as to my meaning.  Visitors should be provided with a way of safety viewing the restoration work in progress.  The simplest way to provide for this would be to provide extra room along the back and sides of the facility to allow visitors to circulate without getting in the way of the restoration crews.

Sincerely,
Glenn

John McNamara replied:
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People enjoy being able to go into our engine house partially because almost every other organization keeps visitors out. However, since enginehouses are dangerous places, confining visitors to a viewing area would be a very good idea.
There is a conflict of interest, however, as we are trying to restore the railroad as it was and let people see that, while simultaneously trying to increase visitor safety. With those somewhat conflicting goals in mind, we probably should consider something a bit less formal than Steamtown's balcony. How about reserving a 10-foot wide walking area at the "fat end" of the building? The walkway would have an entrance/exit door at each end, and be separated from the work area by a low railing intended to deter vistors from entering the work area and deter workers from storing "stuff" in the walkway area.

Stephen Hussar replied:
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Quote
...low railings intended to deter vistors from entering the work area...
I'm with you John, the Steamtown picture was just a good way to clearly illustrate the "gallery" idea. A cordoned-off walkway sounds nice, just as long as the railings are removable for photo ops 

Joe Fox replied:
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Do you think, the future roundhouse might be able to have that type of system without a lot of work, and without taking up John's ten feet? I think that three or four feet would be wide enough. When and if a roundhouse is ever built, the museum should have a tour guide to give the visitors a guided tour through the restricted area. By restricted area, I mean where the restoration, and steam/diesel crews at work.

Joe

Stewart Rhine replied:
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Gordon and Steve H. - Hey, I don't always go back and read all the pages on a thread either.  Some of these things are getting looooong.   Steve, sounds like you did see my post back on page 2 regarding placement of the roundhouse.  I think it should be just northeast of the existing shop, about 125-150 feet.  Note that this would be in the future as we would have to purchase additional land.  To repeat a few of the best reasons: (1) less cost in running power and water to the structure (2) easier transfer of tools and equipment from shop to the roundhouse (3) location of a driveway feeding the back and side for truck access.

Joe has a good idea of roping off a 4 foot wide visitor area along the back (wide) side of the roundhouse.  Visitors can enter through the side small  door or the back open stall door.  There should be a guide with them most of the time.  To repeat - I favor having one stall as a run through with 2-3 sticks of track out the back, covered to the railhead for switching, service or deliveries.

Mike Fox replied:
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Well here is another thought on the visitors gallery. How about a continuous walkway through the shop and continuing through an eventual roundhouse. Someplace safe enough for self guided tours and also very handicap accessible (level side to side with easy inclines).Then maybe it could finish with a walkway through the yard and ending back at the starting point
Mike

Stewart Rhine replied:
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Mikes walkway idea is good in that visitors can see the inside of the car shop or machine shop.  The floor inside bays 1-3 of the car shop should be finished for easier walking and movement of equipment.  (A finished floor would be safer and allow for the use of rolling jacks).  Walkway areas should be kept clear of tools and equipment which would be safer for everybody.  The walkways could be marked to guide visitors through.

This has been posted before but the East Broad Top puts chains across the open roundhouse doors so visitors can look inside.  We can easily do this on the carshop doors.  I know it wouldn't look as good but it would help on days when there aren't enough volunteers to tour visitors.

Bill Sample replied:
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An additional benefit to Mike Fox's handicap access idea is that this also makes it easier to move our "stuff" around with a hand truck or cart.
I also agree with Stewart's proposal to have a run-through track and rail height graded area behind one of the roundhouse stalls.  To that, if possible, I'd like to suggest a permanent loading ramp at the end of the run-through track so that equipment transfers could be easily made.

Mike Fox replied:
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An unloading ramp might not be in the best interest there because of the limitations of it. I mean in that area, the ramp would have to be located near the buildings to give the truck driver enough room to navigate to it. So the track would be short. A track that is ground level and ballasted to the top of the rail head would be better because the truck could drive over it or unload any where on it. And while not needed for loading/unloading, it could be a sort of display track. Just my 2 cents.
Mike

Wayne Laepple replied:
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Depending on what kind of rig is hauling a particular piece of rolling stock, a track filled to the railhead may or may not be better than a ramp. If the truck is a roll back, it wouldn't matter whether the track is filled in or not. But if its a detachable gooseneck trailer, filled track is a necessity. If its a regular lowboy or a drop deck, a ramp would be necessary.

Do you guys know something the rest of us don't? Are we having visiting equipment or is some of our equipment going somewhere for a visit?

Joe Fox replied:
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I think Wayne, that this was mentioned for when the museum has more equipment and things delivered. That is what I think, but I don't know how true it is. Talk to you guys later.

Joe
_________________
“We are extremely proud of our collection of historical railroad equipment, which is the largest of any U. S. railroad, especially our steam locomotives.”
-Steve Lee-

Joe

James Patten replied:
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It was intended that Track 7 become the delivery track once the area in front of Bay 3 is filled in.  If during our deliberations we can find another, better place to put it that might be nice.

Stephen Hussar replied:
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Mention has been made of the idea that a roundhouse would make firing up the locomotives indoors possible. Would a "basic" roundhouse environment also make it possible to keep fires burning through the night, in the event the need ever arose? (would additional planning be required for the building to be used in this way...)  I'm thinking perhaps some future special operating schedule that required the engines to be run late into the night and again at the crack of dawn. And for the purposes of this discussion let us temporarily set aside the obvious difficulties of making this happen with an all-volunteer steam crew...

gordon cook replied:
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My guess would be that  a proper smoke jack would allow the engine to have its fire banked on a Saturday night instead of dumped, and would reduce the fire up time and also the thermal stress on a Sunday morning. This was the traditional situation on a working rr, but you need someone to maintain water levels all night long so if you're volunteering to be the hostler on Saturday night by all means!
In reality, the next day temperature of the boiler water is still pretty high, and the fireup is pretty quick, and is probably not worth the risks of maintaining a banked fire. Perhaps some of our members with more experience  than I do would care to  comment.

James Patten replied:
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Early on when we had steam, and I can't recall if it was Monson #3 or our #10, we tried banking the fire for the night.  Whoever it was that stayed reported that it kept popping off rather frequently, so there was a need to keep feeding water into it.  I don't think that person got much sleep that night.

pockets replied:
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This is why there was a job/position, in most roundhouses, called "Ashcat". It was his job to tend the banked fires and the locomotives. Sleeping was not one of his duties.

I have observed people, who didn't know how, babysit C&O 614 overnight. It can be quite amusing.

Greg B.

Stewart Rhine replied:
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James,  Your memory is correct.  Monson 3 was kept hot overnight during the 1998 annual picnic because we ran Friday night trains followed by early Saturday morning trains.  One of the fellows from MNG stayed with engine 3 all night.  As you said, the engine kept popping off which required water to be added a number of times.  That was the only time we had a night hostler.  The biggest problem I see with keeping steam pressure on an engine is the possibility of night crawlers.  I know we trig, set brakes and center the bar but I have heard of engines that creep even with brakes on.

Gordon has a good point that a hot boiler will stay hot overnight so the next morning's fire up is faster.  Plus, a live fire overnight is a waste of coal.  I will repeat that I think we should have the pull-down smoke jacks in the new roundhouse mostly because it gives us the ability to fire up inside.

dwight winkley replied:
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During my time in the U. S. Army  My main job was Steam Locomotive Hostler at Fort Eustis, VA.. My main job was to keep the fires burning. This was a five min. job every two hours. Add a little coal and water. The fun part was moving the loco's from one track to another in the yard. One track had ash pit. and coal. Some times I would have to push the full hopper car up the ramp so it could be unloaded. The water supply was on another track. With up to four loco's under steam it was some interesting swithing. Use to set the brakes and let the engine bark. Opps!
base Commanding General complained about trains running at night. Other jobs was oil and grease job. Fire cleaning and loco and tender cleaning. Take two parts jounial oil, one part deisel fuel and wipe down the loco/tender with wet jounial box packing. Everything  "shined" untill the fire was cleaned and the ash pan dumped. Fly ash everywhere. so you did the job again. Use to hate steam heat in the coaches all night.
You tender the fires every half hour. I swithed by myself. Had special training in order to remove blue flags and move equipment around. Than put the blue flag back on the equipment.....Before anyone says something about the blue flag.... I was told more than once. "This is the ARMY"
I could go on forever,
dwight

Joe Fox replied:
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I didn't know you did all that stuff Dwight. That is very interesting. Why did the W, W, & F keep the engines fired up all night originally if they only ran trains during the day, and it only takes two hours to fire the engine up when it is cold?

Joe

Stephen Hussar replied:
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Quote
Why did the W, W, & F keep the engines fired up all night originally if they only ran trains during the day Joe
Joe, that's an interesting question...
Dwight, great posting -- what sorts of locomotives were you working with back then?

James Patten replied:
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Most locomotives the WW&F ran were the size of #9, not the size of #10.  While it may take only a couple hours to start up a warm boiler in the morning for #10, it won't surprise me if #9 takes another hour at least.  Remember #10 is around 12 tons and #9 is around 18 (or 50% more engine).

In the later years with the first morning train from Albion leaving at 5:30 AM, the fireman would have had to show up at midnight in order to have the engine ready to go in time to switch the yard for departure (assuming it wasn't done the night before).  Therefore having a hostler only makes sense, so that the engine crew can show up around 4:30, do everything they need to do to get the engine ready, and do some switching before departure.

Wayne Laepple replied:
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First of all, let us remember what happened to the original WW&F roundhouse while a hot engine was inside. The amount of time required to fire up in the morning, especially if the engine is still warm from the day before, is relatively short, and it may not be worth the risk to keep an engine with a fire on its grates inside overnight.

Now, to reduce fire up time, if the engine is put away still hot and the fire permitted to slowly die out, it is quite likely that some hot coals will remain overnight. Especially if the smokestack is capped, lack of draft will also reduce thermal stress on the firebox. And if the engine is indoors, that will also retain heat.

However, since the pool of qualified engine service personnel is limited, keeping an engine under steam overnight may not be practical.

Dave Buczkowski replied:
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It's becoming clear to me why the railroads switched to diesel engines... You just turn the key, wait a few minutes and go. Do more with less. But what's the fun in that!
Dave

Ira Schreiber replied:
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Back in the late sixties, when I was in my steam mode, we had three  4-4-0's, two foot gauge. Since these operated until about 9 p.m. and went out again around 9 a.m., we kept them hot overnight.
The proceedure was to fill the boiler with water, build a solid fire, open the cylinder cocks, center the Johnson bar, set the park brake and trig the drivers.
All three engines had different steaming personalities. One would spend the night quietly steaming, one constantly would pop off, causing much consernation among the locals sleeping, and one would try to slip away during the night, trigs not withstanding.
Our night hostler was good at tending the locos and soon figured what to do with each engine during the night.
One: do nothing
Two: let the fire die
Three: make sure it did not wander
I agree, turning the key is much easier.
Ira

Joe Fox replied:
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I forgot that the original railroad had some trains that left early in the mornings. Talk to you guys later.

Stewart Rhine replied:
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Most steam era railroads had hostlers who kept the engines hot.  They stayed with the locomotives all night and kept them filled with water and coal.  Their job was to have the engines ready for the crews of the first passenger train or road freight.  Tending the yard goat was another chore for the hostler when the roundhouse was in or near a large yard.  The yard/switch crew would sign in and get their locomotive from the hostler.

dwight winkley replied:
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US Army loco's

Most of the time I had 2-8-0's. Now and than, a 0-6-0 was put in service.

Have a photo I can post when I find it.

dwight

Joe Fox replied:
Quote
That would be great to see Dwight. I look foward to you posting it when you can find it.
_________________
“We are extremely proud of our collection of historical railroad equipment, which is the largest of any U. S. railroad, especially our steam locomotives.”
-Steve Lee-

Joe

Stewart Rhine replied:
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Dwight, Did you have a 2-8-0 that had the rare Franklin (rotart cam) poppet valve system?  It think it was numbered 611 back then.  It ran on the Maryland & Penna. RR for testing during the Korean War 1950-51

ETSRRCo replied:
Quote
Quote
Back in the late sixties, when I was in my steam mode, we had three  4-4-0's, two foot gauge. Since these operated until about 9 p.m. and went out again around 9 a.m., we kept them hot overnight.
The proceedure was to fill the boiler with water, build a solid fire, open the cylinder cocks, center the Johnson bar, set the park brake and trig the drivers.
All three engines had different steaming personalities. One would spend the night quietly steaming, one constantly would pop off, causing much consernation among the locals sleeping, and one would try to slip away during the night, trigs not withstanding.
Our night hostler was good at tending the locos and soon figured what to do with each engine during the night.
One: do nothing
Two: let the fire die
Three: make sure it did not wander
I agree, turning the key is much easier.
Ira

Ira where did you work with these locomotives? Joe most railroads as others have stated "banked" their locomotives overnight. I am a fireman at the New Hope & Ivyland Railroad in Pa. We bank the 40 off every night that she is scheduled to run the next day. rule of thumb is just about bottle it up then throw 40-50 scoops of coal in a pile on the fire and just let her simmer for the night. If its done right the next days crew will come in with at least 100 pounds on the clock and should only take and hour and a half to two hours to get her ready. You just break up the bank and spread it out in the firebox nice and thin. Throw a road fire in her and watch the clock rise!! If done wrong....well lets not get into that lol. Makes my job A LOT harder in the morning and at 6 AM that's the last thing I need.
_________________
Eric Bolton
East Tigard & Southern Railroad Co 1889-1958

Joe Fox replied:
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I know what you mean. So you guys don't have a hostler watching the boiler after you leave to make sure that the water level doesn't drop to low?
_________________
“We are extremely proud of our collection of historical railroad equipment, which is the largest of any U. S. railroad, especially our steam locomotives.”
-Steve Lee-

Joe

dwight winkley replied:
Quote
Yes, 611 was at Fort Eustis.

The differant year built loco's were interesting. The loco's from WW11
had air opened fire doors. power reverse gear.  The Korean war loco's were built with a hand opening fire door and a manual Johnson Bar like #9 &10.

One loco had a screw reverse gear (may have been on 611) The crews hated it. Took a long time and a lot of hand wheel turning to go from forward to reverse like when coupling up.

dwight

ETSRRCo replied:
Quote
Quote
I know what you mean. So you guys don't have a hostler watching the boiler after you leave to make sure that the water level doesn't drop to low?

No. The locomotive usually only sites for eight hours unattended. We literally fill the boiler till it almost cant fit anymore water. That takes some times as you can only drop the pressure 10 pounds at a time. Over the eight hours the locomotive might pop off but it always has a full glass in the morning. Usually the fire has lost most of its intensity during those eight hours and can not produce steam. Once you break the bank and the green coal lights off it doesn't take much to bring up the pressure.
_________________
Eric Bolton
East Tigard & Southern Railroad Co 1889-1958

Joe Fox replied:
Quote
Thanks for the info Eric. I am glad that 2 foot gauge locomotives don't take as long as a standard gauge engine. The stacks in the round house, as others have said, could be used to fire up the engine first thing in the morning. This would come in handy in bad weather, and the wood could be kept in the engine house to start the fire, beside the locomotive. However, this would have to be done the week before, and this would or could ensure that we have somewhat dry firewood to fire up the engine with.

Joe

Bruce Wilson replied:
Quote
The old engine house at Edaville was constructed of corrugated sheet metal over light wooden framing. The long structure held four steam locomotives (Monson 3 & 4, Bridgton 7 & 8 ) and usually one of the ex-Whitinsville G.E. diesels. The building spanned a single track with engine house doors at each end and a small lube shack on one side. A supply of fire wood (pine bark and slabs) was kept inside for firing up. As soon as the steam engine(s) were lit off, the diesel would be used to haul the locomotives(s) out doors for steaming up.

To the best of my recollection, there were no smoke jacks built into the roof of the Edaville engine house. Ventilation was minimal, unless both sets of doors were opened. Even with the doors opened, visibility was poor inside the building and inside the cabs of the steam engines.

After operations, the engine(s) were put away warm and firing up the next day went quickly even in cold weather. A propane salamander style heater was used inside the building, although there was no insulation that I recall.

Ira Schreiber replied:
Quote
First of all, let me correct my previous error. I meant "bank"
a solid fire, not "build", although you do build a bank.
The operation was at the Nebraska and Iowa State Fairs.
Each had 1 1/2 to 2 miles of permanent track and the three 24" Crowns and 12 coaches were trucked back and forth. Great fun. I started as an engineer ( why not start at the top?) and eventually was the General Manager and everything else.

Stewart Rhine replied:
Quote
Along with the plan of firing up locomotives inside the roundhouse is the need for dry fuel.  We should consider having a small woodshed near the roundhouse or a woodbin inside the roundhouse.  It wouldn't have to hold much more than enough to get engines 9 or 10 hot enough to add coal.  Wood could be kept in the tender but I think the steam crew would rather have a good load of coal in there.

Joe Fox replied:
Quote
How about a place to keep some coal for the engines that is under cover and out of the weather. Something other than the tarps. While we are talking about coal, when are we getting more, because we only have a little bit left. I am guessing maybe enough for a month at the most. Talk to you guys later.

Joe

Mike Fox replied:
Quote
I believe coal storage is in the long range plan. In one form or another. Dry storage similar to the covered coal shed of the B&SR with a bucket on an arm would be great. Perhaps the WW&F had something similar but I forget.
Mike

Bill Sample replied:
Quote
Has any consideration been given to "house steam" being available?  Think this was used to keep locomotives somewhat warm by some of the "broad gauge" - I don't know if it was used on the two-footers, maybe it was in Phillips.  Maybe a household boiler could do the job for our locomotives if the idea make sense to the mechanical department.

Joe Fox replied:
Quote
Do you mean house steam, like hooking a mounted boiler up to the engine boiler, so that the hot water is in the boiler?

Joe

Mike Fox replied:
Quote
Bill, I was thinking the same thing but had declined to say anything. But since you brought it up, I was thinking of a boiler, or just taping into the one in the machine shop, and hook it to the loco using quick disconnect hoses like what is used on the diesel in the winter with the heater. Of course some kind of circulator would need to be hooked on the line and the Machine shop Boiler would probably have to run constantly to keep the loco boiler warm. Just my thought.
Mike

Bill Sample replied:
Quote
Joe, that's exactly what I meant.
Mike, I completely forgot about the heating boiler in the shop - it might work if the roundhouse is right next door to the shop.  I was thinking some way of slowly bringing the boiler temperature up to 140 or so degrees so that the strain on the metal is reduced when the fire is started up, if Jason & Co. think it is worth the trouble.  The locomotive could be "charged up" with heat several hours ahead of fire time, maybe this could even be on a timer if everything is set up in advance.  I'm just interested in seeing the life of the boilers be extended as long as possible.
The RMNE has a couple of diesels that have been equipped with standby heating systems to keep the cooling system warm during the coldest months, which consist mainly of fairly small household boilers and a couple of circulating pumps.  The installation and operation of these is fairly cheap, and it should be even less expensive at the WW&F, knowing the talents for scrounging that exist there!

Wayne Laepple replied:
Quote
When I spent a few days two summers ago helping out at the NC Railroad museum at Spencer, I assisted in firing up Shay no. 1925. Here's how we did it. On Friday afternoon, we laid a small fire in the firebox and got it going. Then we covered the whole thing over with green coal. We oiled and greased around the engine for an hour or so, then checked the fire again. The next morning, when we arrived at 6 a.m., the engine was nice and warm, although the fire had died away to almost nothing. We raked out the bank and spread it around on the grates, threw in some wood and a can of diesel fuel, followed by a fusee. As the wood burned, we slowly added coal. At about 8, we went down the street for breakfast while things heated up. In less than 2 hours, we had enough steam to start the blower, and we had no trouble raising steam in plenty of time to move the engine over to the coal ramp.

Joe Fox replied:
Quote
Was that a standard gauge engine, and how much boiler pressure did you have, when you got there in the morning? Talk to you guys later.

Joe

Wayne Laepple replied:
Quote
Standard gauge 70-ton three-truck Shay, built 1925 for the Graham County RR in North Carolina. No pressure on the boiler when we arrived, just everything nicely heated up to about 150 or 170 degrees.

Joe Fox replied:
Quote
Oh. I am surprised that you guys were able to build up pressure that quick. I remember at railcamp, they said the slower you raise the boiler temp. and pressure then the longer your boiler will last.

Joe

Wayne Laepple replied:
Quote
That's the point of heating the engine up without building pressure. All the expansion that affects sheets and staybolts takes place without pressure, so then all that's necessary is to boil water.

Jason M Lamontagne replied:
Quote
I can't believe this worked (being able to post I mean)

I like Wayne's method- a nice gentle start.  When I have time, I pull the engine out Friday evening and light a small wood fire, and leave it for a couple hours.  When it burns out, we push it in, and the next morning, we have a warmer boiler to start with.  We never get any steam Friday doing this, on purpose.  Just a warm up cycle.

No offense intended to the idea of hooking to the shop boiler idea, but this is problematic, and a bit modern in my opinion.  The shop boiler water is mixed with a special antifreeze, which would do well at promoting foaming in a power boiler.  Call me old fashioned, I think I prefer a good old fashioned small wood fire to quick connecting to a modern boiler anyway...

see ya
jason

Ira Schreiber replied:
Quote
Back to the topic at hand.........
A "soft start" on any pressure vessel is desired to minimize stress, as everyone has noted.
That said, standby boiler heat is not only not necessary but really not desired. A small fire and build from there, sloooowly.
JML, I totally agree.
Ira

Josh Botting replied:
Quote
Even if we ran strait water through the boiler, it would be full of stuff over time, heating boiler stuff is bad stuff, not good to cycle it.

If we did slow heat the boiler over night, we would need a secure place to lock the engine down, so someone didn't take it for a ride, as happened in the mid west with a diesel.

Mike Fox replied:
Quote
Thanks Jason and Josh, I knew there was something I was overlooking with my thought. And I don't think the crew minds waiting for the steam pressure to build. They seem to find enough to do with caring for the engine during the steam up. No need to rush with things of that age anyway. Got to make it last.
Mike

Wayne Laepple replied:
Quote
No one's going for a joyride with a steam engine that's on a warm-up fire. No pressure is ever raised, and without pressure, the engine's not moving.

Joe Fox replied:
Quote
That's the beauty of steam, if you don't know how to operate it properly, one of two things is going to happen, the boiler will either run out of steam, and the engine will stop, or a boiler explosion.

Joe

James Patten replied:
Quote
I wouldn't call a boiler explosion a beautiful thing....

Joe Fox replied:
Quote
I didn't meen it like that, I just worded it wrong.
_________________
“We are extremely proud of our collection of historical railroad equipment, which is the largest of any U. S. railroad, especially our steam locomotives.”
-Steve Lee-

Joe

BSRMBrake replied:
Quote
There are several advantageous qualities to banking the fire and several disadvantages.  One of the goals of banking the fire over night is to reduce the expansion/contraction of the boiler caused by temperature changes in the boiler and firebox barrel.  Carefully banking the fire ensures that cold air spaces will not build up in the firebox leading to uneven expansion and contraction of the firebox.  Another is leaving you with enough pressure in the morning (not full operating pressure, mind you) to allow you to operate the blower and raise steam faster by increasing draft.  Usually it is accomplished by banking the fire with a few inches of coal throughout or building up a thicker section which can be spread in the morning and capping the stack.  It is my understanding that hoslers were used most often when locomotives were maintained throughout the night at operating pressure.  This is so that at any point during the night, when a locomotive was required for an assignment, it would be ready to go.

Mike Fox replied:
Quote
I hope I speak for more than myself when I say I am against any banking of a fire in a steam engine to be left overnight with no watchman. Our organization has too many valuable things that could be lost if a problem were to arise overnight and no one was there to catch it.
Mike

Ira Schreiber replied:
Quote
Mike,
I totally agree with you and hope EVERYONE reads your post.
NO banking or any live fires overnight on the WW&F.
It is just a disaster waiting to happen.
Ira

John McNamara replied:
Quote
But the disaster would be in keeping with our efforts to recreate the original railway 

Ira Schreiber replied:
Quote
Let's go to Rome and recreate Nero's effort. If you do not want to travel overseas, we can always get a cow and go to Chicago!
I am at a loss, however, on how to go to San Francisco and start an earthquake.
'nuff said?
Ira

James Patten replied:
Quote
Let's not and post on the internet that we did.  Then we collect from the sympathy donations that come our way, and probably go to jail for fraud.

James Patten replied:
Quote
From Jason:
Quote
- I don't think we should be banning keeping a banked fire in locomotives overnight, as long as there is a qualified steam fireman or higher responsible for it all night.  Further, I think there's no problem with this inside of the roundhouse, provided it is built for it with proper smoke jack, etc.

Mike Fox replied:
Quote
That's all I was saying. As long as there is somebody there. We have said before that there has been great improvements in fire protection/detection/prevention since the time when the original WW&F Roundhouse burnt.
Mike

Stephen Hussar replied:
Quote
Call me crazy, but tending to a couple of simmering locomotives overnight in a roundhouse is something I'd like to experience someday...

Wayne Laepple replied:
Quote
Night hostling is my all-time favorite steam engine experience. Some 37 years ago, I was a volunteer with an occasional main line steam operator in eastern Pennsylvania, and after a couple of stressful main line trips, I decided to volunteer to hostle the engine. I'd head for the roundhouse about 10 p.m. the night before the trip and build a nice wood fire to warm things up. Then I'd add some coal, and while waiting for pressure to run the blower, I'd wipe the engine down, fill the lubricators and grease the rods. Then I'd relax and commune with the engine for a while.

Later in the night (or maybe I should say very early in the morning) after steam was raised, I'd move the engine out onto the turntable, spin it around, and back out onto the outbound lead track. As the first gray light of dawn was breaking, I'd run the engine up and down the lead several times to make sure the lubricator was feeding correctly and the grease was getting to the rod bearings. Sometimes there was time for a bit of coal scoop cooking -- bacon and eggs done to perfection. Then I'd just settle down in the fireman's seat and wait for the crew to arrive. When they showed up, I'd head for home and my nice warm bed.

Meanwhile, my fellow volunteers were squabbling about who would fi

604
Archives (Museum) / Sheepscot Landscaping
« on: December 13, 2008, 04:08:26 AM »
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Sheepscot Landscaping has been converted from the pre-July 2008 WW&F Discussion Forum.
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Information contained within this post may be superseded by more recent postings and conversations.

James Patten wrote:
Quote
OK, time to start a thread on landscaping in and around Sheepscot.

Once stone starts to get stored up at Alna Center (which probably won't happen until fall 2007 unless the prep work is done in December and things settle really well this winter), only then can we really get down to business with pretty-fying the area.

With stone gone, the parking lot no longer needs to be an ankle's worst nightmare.  With a parking lot on the Boudin lot, we probably no longer need to have parking at all directly in front of Sheepscot, except perhaps for a couple of handicap spots.

The lot to the west of the shop should be kept for parking, of course, and it is intended (someday) to get some gravel in there to make it proper.

So should we put in a few shrubbery and a lawn with some walking paths along the front?  Or should we do something .... else?

Wayne Laepple replied:
Quote
As I mentioned previously in an earlier post, I think some landscaping of the area between the south wall of the shop and Cross Road would be very attractive. Nothing fancy, just some lawn and perhaps a few bushes. A bulb-in off Cross Road for buses and handicap access would also be very nice.

Stephen Hussar replied:
Quote
Not sure if this falls under the "pretty-fying" heading, but is there a plan to someday cover the enginehouse/machine shop with board & batten? (thought I read that somewhere...)

Mike Fox replied:
Quote
James,
I think the landscaping can be done but maybe should have Eric B. draw up something so we could get an Idea what things would look like when they are done. Or atleast plan it out if you would like shrubs. Grass is a no brainer on what that would look like. A nice green strip of grass would look nice if you can keep everyone from walking on it. Perhaps some posts like I suggested for the parking area would work good there too.
Mike

Stewart Rhine replied:
Quote
Landscaping in front of the engine house is a good idea for the future but I think we should keep it all gravel for the next few years.  It's too important of an area to loose to lawn.  Trucks, like the green house man and UPS come in every week.  True, a bulb drive would take care of this but we should still be able to back a truck up to every bay.  If the whole area was leveled off, (remove the loading dock and extend bay 3's track, finish track 7, and have the green house moved) it would look alot better.  Once this is done, if we find we are using the area less then seed and plant it.

I'd also like to see the West lot extended a little so a truck can back right to the back shop door.  We would have to put a crossing on track 7 by the corner of the building.

Stewart

Joe Fox replied:
Quote
I think that all of those things would look great. However, if passenger parking was to move west of the Percival's lot, then I think that it would turn away a lot of passengers.

Joe

James Patten replied:
Quote
Having people parking on the Boudin lot is a much less hardship than some places have you park.  For instance, it's much closer than parking in some Walmart parking lots.  I'm sure it's also much closer than some places in Strasburg RR's parking lot as well.

Those that have visited before will be thrilled at having actual parking, rather than parking on the side of the street.  Those that haven't may get slightly confused initially, especially if Clarissa's privately owned house is in between them and the museum, but good signage should alleviate that.

Wayne Laepple replied:
Quote
That's an interesting analogy, James. Further than a MalWart parking lot indeed! All that's necessary is a few signs directing visitors to the Boudin parking lot and then to a little path and walkway along the road. Save the Percival lot for handicap and buses.

Joe Fox replied:
Quote
James,
I now understand what your getting at. We can have a tour guide meet the passengers in the parking lot, where those that want to have, or start a yard tour can, and walk through the yard with a tour guide. Personally, I think it would be great if all passengers were made to have a tour guide, or someone who works at the museum guide them through the yard, so that they don't get hurt or anything like that. However, on some days that is impossible to do, and that is ok to. It would only be needed on busy days. What do you think of that idea? I think it could be arranged, I know some tourist railroads won't let you walk through the yard or shops without a tour guide.

Joe

James Patten replied:
Quote
I don't think we should really let people walk through the shops or yard without someone official along either.  After all someone could get cut, or fall, or something else if they aren't careful, and a guide with them this is less likely to happen.  Someone unattended could gum up the works of a piece of machinery or take something, and with a guide there this is also less likely to happen.

Allan Fisher replied:
Quote
Many Sundays during the Summer, we have two or three on the train crew and one person at the Gift Shop and over 100 people visiting including long time members who are at Sheepscot for the first time in many years. . Does that mean we are closed - but we'll sell you a train ride?

Dave Buczkowski replied:
Quote
I think caution signs might be in order for when we don't have enough volunteers to keep an eye out for or escort visitors around. Of course, we could lawyer up and have all visitors sign a 10 page waiver and indemnity form but then it wouldn't be 1910 at the Museum. And i come to the Museum to escape that world. Let common sence be your guide (or Joe, I guess...)
Dave

John McNamara replied:
Quote
One of the things discussed in the Long Range Plan was well-graded foot-paths that ran alongside the engine house and crossed over the tracks that enter it. This was to be combined with an information kiosk and signs on the bay doors. The general idea was to provide useful information when the museum was closed and to provide enough information and things to see when the museum was open that visitors would be disinclined to actually enter the engine house. The general idea was to be welcoming and not put "do not enter" signs everywhere, but at the same time to gently suggest that willy-nilly wandering was neither necessary nor desirable.

James Patten replied:
Quote
What John said

We should not close up the shop because there's not enough people to give the tour, but signs and footpaths should help with information and advice.

Joe Fox replied:
Quote
You can't make common sence be your guide because sooner or later, somebody is going to injur themselves, and give us a big law suit. Not only is it better for the passengers to have a guide, so that they can ask questions, and you can describe things to them in more detail. When a big enough crew isn't available then, you can tell them that they have to be careful, and be on the lookout for hazards, such as train cars, or a train coming into the yard.

Joe

John McNamara replied:
Quote
Joe is certainly correct that "common sense" isn't very common. If there are sufficient museum personnel available to provide guide service, it certainly would be the preferred way of doing things. Self-guided tours should only be used when there are insufficient personnel available (see Allan's post) and after the people about to take such a tour are forewarned.

Wayne Laepple replied:
Quote
I have expressed concern previously about allowing people to wander at will in the shop. Not only are there tripping and pinching hazards, dust, welding flashes, etc., etc., there is also temptation, in that tools are often left lying on a bench or a floor, and it is entirely likely that someone will someday walk away with some tool. Kids may be tempted by the steps to the upper level, or they might climb on a locomotive or car and take a tumble.

What if lightweight chains with "No admittance without guide" signs are hung across the doorways, particularly when no one is available to escort visitors? And on the inside of the doors, panels are posted explaining what people are seeing as they look inside.

Another possibility might be a "corridor" delineated by chains or safty tape through Bay 3 fromt front to back of the shop.

It may be difficult for some of us to imagine, but in today's litigious society, if someone trips and bungs up their knees on a rail or falls into the pit, we are going to be out of business. It is our responsibility to protect our visitors from themselves. We don't have a choice in this matter.

Glenn Christensen replied:
Quote
Hi Guys,

Wayne makes an excellent point!  I do believe that card-holding museum members are covered by our insurance (we may have to check) but certainly our "civillian" visitors are not.

In fact we may want to consider adding visitor's bays into any plans we formulate for roundhouses, car shops, etc.  This would allow us to focus our docents (by giving them a particular "work station") and improve our overall visitor experience (by allowing them to watch the work being done while the docent provides interpretation) - all at the same time.

My thoughts,
Glenn

Stephen Hussar replied:
Quote
Yes, something that would allow visitors to come in and walk through, without getting in harm's way. Steamtown has the viewing balcony in the roundhouse, while Seashore has one in the restoration shop...

Mike Fox replied:
Quote
I like the chain idea. Allowing someone to view but only from a distance without a guide. For the protection of the guests and like was stated, the museum. In this sue-happy world we live in now, someone could simply walk through the yard and trip over a rail or step on a nail and probably win a lawsuit.
Mike

Dave Buczkowski replied:
Quote
I believe Glenn is wrong, or at least I hope he is. Our liability insurance should cover visitors as well as volunteers. If it doesn't we shouldn't be allowing visitors on the grounds. I'm surprised that our carrier's loss control department hasn't had a safety engineer stop by for a look see. My father, who is a retired safety engineer, didn't have any words of dire warning when he visited so we can't be too far off base.
Dave

Glenn Christensen replied:
Quote
Hi Dave,

I think you'll find that many insurance carriers distinguish between visitors who ride the trains, visitors who view heavy work at a distance and visitors (who may never have ridden a train before) being granted unfettered access to active shop facilities.

Few railroad museums or tourist railroads permit unsupervised access to active shop facilities today precisely for insurance reasons.  I personally think that an intelligent person with some exposure to heavy equipment and a knowledge of basic safety rules is only minimally at risk in such an environment.  But in our litigious society I may be in the minority on this score.  I also feel that shop access is one of the things that makes the WW&F such a precious place.  But I can unequivocally state that unsupervised shop access is not permitted to visitors at operations as far-flung as the Tennessee Valley Railroad Museum, the Durango & Silverton and the Bluebell Railway.  It is possible that the WW&F's non-regulated posture has precluded problems from that quarter,  but a personal injury claim is a different matter and subject to full jurisprudence.

I also believe that visitors crave such access, its simply fascinating.  This is one reason why supervised shop tour programs are becoming a more prevalent trend throughout the industry.

Trust me, I will be most happily proven wrong on this score.  I wish this were not the case.  I had a fan at the Bluebell say the same to me less than a month ago.  But "nanny government" issues aside, I sincerely doubt it.

Respectfully,
Glenn

Wayne Laepple replied:
Quote
I must agree with Glenn. Much as we all enjoy the ambiance of Sheepscot, allowing folks who have no clue what a railroad is all about to wander  unfettered is just asking for trouble.

Perhaps in the next edition of the visitors' guide, we could include some indication of locations from which work in the shop can be viewed safely. And volunteer guides should be encouraged to say a few things about personal safety before escorting groups into the shop. Even simple things like not stepping on the rail (slippery, ankle-twister, etc.) and watching you head can be useful.

Joe Fox replied:
Quote
Hi everybody,

I like Wayne's idea. Everybody who has been to Steamtown, know that the only way to tour the round house, and shop is to be guided by a tour. I think that is exactly what we should do. I think it would be great to have some type of chain, just like we did at Halloween, that has a sign hanging on it, please keep out, unless with a guide, or something like that.

Joe

Stewart Rhine replied:
Quote
The chains at the open shop doors are a good idea when no one is there to guide people through a bay.  Visitors would look in but not enter.  When we do take visitors through, keeping the bays cleaner would make the place safer.  As has been mentioned before, finishing the floors would make them easier to walk through and allow easier moving of parts and supplies.  Better floors would be a big improvement.  Of course the shop and bays will never be totally safe - it's a working railroad building, not a showplace.   Having the chains and signs at the doors is a good (and inexpensive) place to start.

We should consider posting shop tour signs and have tours at a certain time if the manpower is available.  If we give tours once or twice a day it would be easier for us.  Visitors may not like it as much but as Dave said we need to stay of the safe side.

Dave Olszewski replied:
Quote
It is good idea if they put chain at shop and post sign there. Why not open door in front so vistiors can look at it from parking lot. Also take photos of shop and put them in visitor center. I think it will be great if we move coal storage to other place. I would love to add building  in front for restroom and kitchen, storage, etc. Also put no parking sign by fire hydrant. Dave

605
MODERATORS NOTE:
Did the Moderator mess up the appearance of the board? has been converted from the pre-July 2008 WW&F Discussion Forum.
Some formatting may have been removed or modified from the original postings that appear quoted in this topic.
Information contained within this post may be superseded by more recent postings and conversations.

James Patten wrote:
Quote
Friday night I decided to see if I could get the board to look differently than it does, so I made a few changes and put them out there.  Even after reloading I saw no changes, so I left them in in case others could see them.

Today I was told by two people that the board was now messed up and they were unable to read it.  So I have put it back as it was.

Please forgive me my indescretion.  Next time I'll play around with my own settings before messing everybody else up.

Stewart Rhine replied:
Quote
James, I was wondering what happened because everything, icons, boxes, etc were very narrow.  Hey that works for a railroad but not my screen.   

Stewart

John McNamara replied:
Quote
For me, only the advertisements worked. 

Otherwise, there were some symbols on the far left and some on the far right, but no text at all. Other than the aforementioned ads, there were no areas I could click successfully.

Thanks for restoring it.

tomc replied:
Quote
I thought the server died as I couldn't log in.  Keep you fingers off the keyboard please!!!!!!

Dave Buczkowski replied:
Quote
James;
I checked in over the weekend from Gail's laptop and saw the same screen as John. I just thought it was either my router or Gail's computer. I was too tired from raking to try and fix it. Now I'm glad I didn't try. Thanks for the information.
Dave

Bill Sample replied:
Quote
Losing access to the forum made me realize how addicted I have become!  Had to have a couple of glasses of Moxie to calm down.
Then I checked with the Severn Valley Railway forum, also by phpbb, just to see if it was a host(?) problem, but the SVR appeared normal.
James, I know you were just trying to make a good thing better.  Thanks again for all the time and effort you put into this.

606
Archives (Other Maine 2ft) / How are things going?
« on: December 13, 2008, 04:05:30 AM »
MODERATORS NOTE:
How are things going? has been converted from the pre-July 2008 WW&F Discussion Forum.
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Information contained within this post may be superseded by more recent postings and conversations.

Joe Fox wrote:
Quote
How are things going for the Maine Narrow Gauge? I have seen many photos on NERAIL of the recent track laying session, and I must say it looks great, however, also looks different with the standard gauge ties, and the four foot ties combined. I think it is every fifth tie, that there is a standard gauge tie, but I am not sure. Maybe Peter could help me out with that curiosity? Talk to you guys later.

Joe

mwmoulison replied:
Quote
Things are up and down at the MNGRR.  The Ocean Gateway project has not only been a nuisance, but it has cost us revenue, and it has somehow managed to pull up track without any gurantee of putting at back.  Legally speaking, I'm not even sure how that works.

Right now, we have new tracks laid to the cruise ship port, and then temporary tracks that allow us to serve India St. for Santafest.

As far as the new section, we got a waiver from the MDOT allowing us to use narrow gauge ties from here on out.  Those standard gauge ties will be cut down to size!

In the spring I plan on putting a new tie under every joint bar on the line.  The tracks were put down badly in the first place, and that makes fixing it a nightmare.  Especially with an all volunteer crew!

Monson #4 continues to run beautifully, she is smooth as anything running over the new tracks.  Hopefully 7 or 8 will roll again in the near future.

Otherwise, we have a lot of things still up in the air.  I don't know how things are going to fall when all this Ocean Gateway business is said and done.  I am optimistic that things could go in our favor.

With great volunteers, some luck, and some $$$, anything can happen!

-Mike

Joe Fox replied:
Quote
Hi Mike,

Thanks for the news. It would be great if the MNGRR could resume the regular three mile round trip excursions again in the near future. It would also be great to see #7 or #8 running also, but I hear that #8 needs to have a new boiler built.

Joe

mwmoulison replied:
Quote
I have good news for you, #8 does not need a new boiler.  They are all operational.  The problem is the new FRA regulations that went into effect in 2004.  Each engine needs about $25,000 worth of work.  Which the MNG doesnt' have.

-Mike

Joe Fox replied:
Quote
That is good news. I have been wondering why you guys need to be involved in the FRA for years. Is it becuase of the city, or the two paved walk ways that you guys cross?

Joe

mwmoulison replied:
Quote
We fall under the FRA because the state inspector believes the our Cutter St. crossing was public.  He wrote a letter to the FRA, who the determined that the FRA should look in on our steam program.  There has been some debate over this, as it has been revealed that legally speaking, Cutter St. is a private road, with public access.

However, prying back the fingers of the FRA is not an easy thing to do.

As a volunteer, I have mixed feelings on this.  It is nice that the FRA will hold us to a high standard of safety, but I am crushed to walk by engines 7 and 8 just sitting there.  We need something like $25,000 to do the required FRA work on 7.  $$$ the MNG can't afford to spend given the state of things.

all the best,

-Mike

Joe Fox replied:
Quote
That is to bad. I would love to see #7 or #8 running again, only because they are the largest state of Maine two foot gauge locomotives still in existence.

Joe

mwmoulison replied:
Quote
I'm right there with you.  It is a shame that 3 (which can run in Phillips),7, and 8 are perfectly operable engines, but the FRA won't allow it until they are practically disassembled and examined.  They all need a little work, but nothing we couldn't handle.

The 2 foot world is really funny.  It is so small (literally), and the various groups don't associate much with each other.

MNG has the most (and most historic) equipment, but can't run half of it.  WW&F has the best track, largest membership, and overall best maintained equipment.  SR&RL is rich in history, the old stone fort, and the turn table!

As far as archive material goes, who knows who has what!?  I know Boothbay has some neat stuff stashed away.

I am a member of WW&F and MNG.  I'd like to see the 2 groups have reps to meet once or twice a year to help each other out.  Get Boothbay and SRRL in on it as well.  If we sent volunteers up once a year, and you guys sent a few down we could do a lot for 2 foot preservation as a whole.  I'm talking the big projects.  Both places have some very capable people!

Your thoughts?

best,

-Mike Moulison

Allan Fisher replied:
Quote
I am a life member at all three (MNG , WW&F and SR&RL) and also a member at Boothbay. I have never found anyone shy about getting me to help when I visit. The last time I was at MNG,  the archivist sat me down with two or three others to identify 300 photos that they had just been given of the B&SR/B&H, and a couple of the WW&F., and John Stinchfield at Phillips loves company - who usually wind up helping on his latest projects.

Joe Fox replied:
Quote
I think that is a great idea. Have a meeting in July or whatever, and the four museums can talk about how things are going. This should be done before you guys have the National railroad convention, so that way everybody knows what is going on, and when to be at certain museums.

Joe

James Patten replied:
Quote
I tried proposing a "Maine Two Footer's Consortium" one time, to share costs of representing all of us at the various shows, such as the National Narrow Gauge Convention, but didn't have any takers.  However a once-or-twice a year conference of two footer's would be a great idea, to share ideas, discuss plans, and make people aware of potential future problems.

We'd probably want to do it in November and April, after and before the operating season.  Any time during the summer we're all too busy to take the time to do that kind of thing.

Bill Reidy replied:
Quote
I've wondered if our groups could get together to do some sort of joint promotion, if for nothing else -- something along the lines of the "Great Little Trains of Wales" program.  Of course, the Welsh railways have many more visitors and financial resources than we do, but I wonder if something like this could be done on a smaller scale that would be a benefit to the WW&F, Sandy River, MNG and Boothbay?

Bill

Joe Fox replied:
Quote
James,

The power point I am working on, when would you like it done by? Me and dad were thinking, who is going to watch a half hour power point during a train show? Not many people will stay for the hole thing, so I am thinking a 10 to 15 minute power point will be enough.

Joe

James Patten replied:
Quote
Joe, I'd like it done by tomorrow.  Thanks.

James Patten replied:
Quote
Well, OK, I guess tomorrow's a bit too soon.  Maybe by the end of January?  That way we could take it to Springfield and Augusta train shows and run it in a loop.

Bill Sample replied:
Quote
I agree Bill Reidy that a joint promotion program would be beneficial to all.  I would also think that the Maine Office of Tourism would cooperate with a "Great Little Trains of Maine" promotion, and possibly even help with some assistance.
Beware of getting into joint ticket or discount programs - when the RMNE (Naugatuck RR) tried to initiate that a few years back there was little cooperative spirit elsewhere.  Probably best to keep any joint effort away from financial activities!

James Patten replied:
Quote
The only joint financial activity I envisioned was everybody pitching into a pot to pay for a "Maine Two Footers" promotional table at shows.  Obviously for nearby shows such as Springfield we wouldn't do that.  But for shows further south and west (Gaithersburg, regional narrow gauge shows, maybe conventions.

mwmoulison replied:
Quote
Gentlemen,

I must admit I am surprised by how many people think this is a good idea.  I think it would be beneficial if used properly for all involved.  None of the museums should compete with each other, the 2 foot fan base is far too small.

If we met twice a year (as James said, April and November), we could better work together.  Then joint efforts can be made when beneficial, and perhaps we could get a sense for what archive materials still exist.  Perhaps we can even find safe places to keep historic documents!

I will push this with the MNG staff, perhaps someone could hook me up with an official at WW&F who would be interested in talking to me about this?

thanks again,

-Mike

Joe Fox replied:
Quote
Hey Mike,

I agree with you, when you said that we shouldn't compete. Maybe it could be possible for the narrow gauge museums to all set up things that corispond with each other, especially with the Narrow Gauge Convention coming to Portland in less than a year. Things should start to be discussed, as to what is going to happen, and when people are going to be visiting what railroad(s) on what day(s), so that everybody can have things set up when the buses arrive.

Joe

James Patten replied:
Quote
Mike, I'm an official (board member) who's interested in getting this off the ground, from the WW&F's standpoint.  I had the backing of the board when I tried it before (about a year ago) and I have no doubt I'll have their backing again.

Allan Fisher replied:
Quote
Coordination between the Museums has been going on for months, Martha Sharp is in charge - with Gary Kohler watching over to see that no conflicts result.

MNG will be open and running every day (as they always are that time of year.)

Gary Kohler is organizing a trip to SR&RL on Tuesday.

A bus has been reserved to bring conventioneers to Boothbay and WW&F on Wed, Thurs, & Friday afternoon, and both museums will try to operate steam on these afternoons.

And all Museums will be open and operating on Saturday & Sunday of the Convention.

Have you signed up as an attendee yet?  See the Website for details

Joe Fox replied:
Quote
Alan, I will be sure to sign up, after I get my liscense, and I will stay in the general area of the museum.

Joe

John McNamara replied:
Quote
Allan,

Can you please post the URL for people who want to sign up. Thanks!

mwmoulison replied:
Quote
James,

please feel free to contact me at mailto:captmike331@aol.com.  We can talk anytime, see what we can work out as a course of action.  In addition to the convention, the museums could work together in many ways.

-Mike

mwmoulison replied:
Quote
All,

I just spoke with the CMO of MNG, Rick Knight.  He has given this 100% support.  I can count on the backing fo the managment to follow.

My next task will be to contact SR&RL and Boothbay.  If anyone can set me on to Jason Lamontagne's e-mail that would be appreciated.

We could potentially use a joint group when purchasing items (i.e. ties, spikes, rail, etc.) to keep cost down!  If we all order ties from the same vendor and ship them togther we could all save a lot of $$$!!!

Furthermore, the gathering should rotae through the museums, and could even be accompanied with occaisional work weekends.  SR&RL could really use some help with track, Rick suggests we start there if they are open to this idea!

I am thrilled that this seems to be picking up steam rather quickly.  Again, I look forward to hearing from you all.  Again, my e-mail is mailto:captmike331@aol.com.

best,

-Mike Moulison

Allan Fisher replied:
Quote
The web site for the National Narrow Gauge Convention being held in Portland Maine on August 29 thru Sept 1, 2007 is
http://www.27thnarrowgaugeconvention.net

607
Archives (Other Maine 2ft) / How about an update?
« on: December 13, 2008, 04:04:21 AM »
MODERATORS NOTE:
How about an update? has been converted from the pre-July 2008 WW&F Discussion Forum.
Some formatting may have been removed or modified from the original postings that appear quoted in this topic.
Information contained within this post may be superseded by more recent postings and conversations.

petecosmob wrote:
Quote
Well, it's been close to a month since the last post regarding MNGRR on this forum, and considering the pics of new trackwork on the NERails photo site, an update as to what's going on up there would seem due.
I'd like to know:
a) Who is doing the work on the new track? The caption in NERails only said "contractor".
b) Will the new trackwork include a run around aas the original (2') layout did?
c) I noticed the volunteer-laid tracks have a std-ga-sized tie every few feet,..is this to accomodate the "possible future standard guage use" agreement the museum and the town accepted  for MNGRR to use the property?
Thanks in advance to whomever has the answers,
Cosmo

Bill Sample replied:
Quote
I was told that one of the conditions for the construction of the MNGRR was that they had to allow for possible reconstruction of the old GT line into Portland.  IIRC one of the MNGRR rails was bolted onto one of the old GT rails at the end of the swing bridge.
If the proposal to locate a passenger line along the highway to connect former MEC and GT routes, I would think that the standard gauge tie requirement would be dropped.
Going into history, I think I read that there was a time that the SR&RL installed a few standard gauge ties between Farmington and Phillips as part of an anticipated "broad-gauging" proposal, so 2 foot on standard gauge ties may have had precident.  If nothing else, it sure shows the public the difference between the railways of our affection and the common gauge.

mwmoulison replied:
Quote
I don't know whose doing the work.  It is being paid for by the Ocean Gateway Project, so it is there subcontractor doing the job.

Right now, no runaround is being put in place.  This will happen in the spring, but the MNG and Ocean Gateway have not yet agreed where it will be placed.  This has to do with new crossing locations.  At this time permanent tracks are being laid to Hancock St. Crossing (which is new), and temp tracks will allow service to India St. for Santafest.  The temp tracks will go across a paved parkinglot I am told.

Tie length has been a problem.  The track foreman and the treasurer wated to use 4'3" ties as a cost saving move.  But Phin was concerned that we were in violation of the lease.  So we bought 100 4'3" ties and 50 8'6".  we placed 20 of the 8'6" under joints.   We have petitioned the MDOT for a waiver to use narrow gauge ties.  The standard ties in the new section where put in place in case the state said no.  It was a sign of good faith towards the lease in other words.  The remaining standard ties have been cut in half, and will be used on the temp track to India St. After this is done, all future projects will be done with 5 foot ties to give added stability for when we use the heavy baldwins 7 and 8.

Please come out for Santafest and show your support!  I have some fear that the temporary condition of things will be detrimental to our image.

I pray that everything will be in place and ready to go for the Narrow Gauge Convention!

-Mike Moulison
MNGRR Co. & Museum

James Patten replied:
Quote
I saw some photos on NERAIL of the new track being put in place.  I haven't been there in a couple of years so I can't picture in my mind where the track is going compared to what was there.

I thought that the ties in the pictures were rather short looking, and I guess I was right!

mwmoulison replied:
Quote
Do you guys use 5 foot ties at WW&F?  What is the recommended tie length for the 2 foot?  I've only worked on standard gauge track, I am still learning the specs for working on the 2 foot.

I'm not too worried about the 4'3" on the new section since it has been completely re-graded and ballasted properly.  Though I'll let you know if my feelings change after the Baldwins come out.

The new ROW has been moved towards the water.  The tracks bend about 10-20 degrees right our of the museum station now and end up about 150-200 feet closer to the water.

-Mike

James Patten replied:
Quote
We use 5 footers at the WW&F.  I don't think I'd be comfortable with much less than that.  4 foot ties seem rather precarious, to me, considering the center of gravity on the cars, how much they sway, etc.  That's not anything scientific, BTW.

Joe Fox replied:
Quote
I noticed that in Portland they have a three foot tie, a few four feet ties, then a standard gauge tie. This is repeated for a while, and I can't help but remember seeing the SR&RL using three foot ties, and having a four foot tie every so often.

Joe

petecosmob replied:
Quote
Ok all!!
I've made up my mind,...
come Hellor high water I'll be up for satafest with my daughter. I hope to be by sometime around train time, but with enpough daylight to see stuff.
What time is the first train on Sunday? Last year I got there early and had to wauit in the museum a while,...not that that was so bad.
Pete "Cosmo" B.

Joe Fox replied:
Quote
I am pretty sure that trains are only running on Saturdays now. It says on the museum website that the Victorian christmas is on Saturday, December 16th. I believe the first train out it at 10, but I am not possitive on that.

Joe

petecosmob replied:
Quote
Joe! I meant at MNGRR,...sorry!
I already have plans to stop by the museum on Sat w/ my little gitrl and hopefully my folks from Mass.
I checked out the MNGRR homepage earlier and I know trains there start at 430.
Cosmo

mwmoulison replied:
Quote
Trains will run at MNGRR 4:30 PM to 7:30 PM.  If you're up this sunday drop by the cab and say hi.  I'm the best looking one in there!

-Mike

Joe Fox replied:
Quote
That's all right Cosmo. One of these days, I would like to go and see what and how MNGRR is doing since I haven't been down in a few years now. Talk to you later.

Joe

petecosmob replied:
Quote
Will do Mike,
and no sweat, Joe!
See y'all sunday,
Cosmo

petecosmob replied:
Quote
I was at MNGRR on SATURDAY, Not Sunday.No big woop.
I would've looked for more of the train crew, but my little girl & I were getting pretty hungry at that point, so we skipped the museum itself and headed for dinner.
Anyway we did have fun, and we were both at WW&F earlier that day too. Due to lodging constraints at my Aunts place in Strong, (just of the old grade to kingfield!) we could only spend one night there, and so we hit both 2'ers in one aft/eve and on to my folk's place in Mass.
Anyway.....
See y'all again soon!
Cosmo

petecosmob replied:
Quote
I heard a bit of rumor from someone (to remain nameless) who used to be up the museum quite a bit a few years back that Mr Sprague was threataning to evict MNGRR from thier current location. As I have heard nothing else about this recently I only ask as a form of rumor control. It seems to me I MAY have heard something about this a while back, that it was old news even then and nothing ever came of it, or it was already resolved.
If someone in the know (MIKE!) could shed any light on this I'd be much appreciative.
Thanks again,
Cosmo

Ira Schreiber replied:
Quote
Ah, the old military system:
If you don't hear a good rumor by 1000 hrs, start one!!

Ira Schreiber

Hear no evil, speak no evil, and don't get caught doing evel!!

mwmoulison replied:
Quote
I do recall when this chatter started.  This was back in summer 05'. The fact is, Mr. Sprague has the ability to hand us our notice of eviction at anytime.  This is because he own the building, and there has been speculation he wishes to sell the entire Port. Co. complex.  Phin had never charged us rent money before, but this is changing.  MNG and Phin are trying to work out a lease agreeement that will give us a better sense of security.

I remember our OM in 2005 being concerned about a lack of contigency plan.  IF handed our eviction that gives us under a year to leave presents a nearly impossible task.  Where do you put all this stuff then?

This is purely my opinion, but I am of the school of though that we should be looking to set up a second sight over in the Bridgton/Sebego Lake area.  It wouldn't hurt to have two sites, and we have more than enough equipment.

Things over there are strange.  The circumstances under which MNG formed back in 1993 has haunted the place ever since.  Anytime you try to improve certian things you hit a wall put up either by Phin or the city.

SO the short answer to you original question is he can evict us, but it is unlikely.

best,

-Mike

p.s.  On an entirely different topic:  I was wondering about car restoration.  I have been pushing someone at MNG to take it upon themselves to do some serious car restoration.  I have enough on my plate leading the the charge track restoration and maintaining the steam program.  What is involved?  How much knowledge of carpentry do you need?  How do you guys at WW&F go about it?

James Patten replied:
Quote
Zack Wyllie is the primary person who does our car (re)construction, as far as woodwork goes.  He's a plumber by trade, so there's apparently no unlearnable secrets to it.  Marcel Levesque is another who does carpentry, and he's a parts desk person at a auto dealership.

He started with the reconstruction of flatcar #118, which was basically a whole new car.  So was flatcar 126, as in both cases new sills and floor were needed (which really all there is to a flat).  The fancy parts come in fitting the steel or other metal (bolsters, trusses, couplers, etc.) to the wood.

Boxcar 309 was torn to the floor, some sills were replaced and spliced, and then the box was replaced.  Somewhat more difficult to build because there are more trusses.

An enclosed passenger car is another whole ball of wax.  We've never done it, but we hope to someday.

If we want to pursue a discussion on car building, it should have it's own topic.

petecosmob replied:
Quote
Thanks Mike,
that answers my questions pretty well. It was hard for me to imagine Phin acting "out of spite" which was the impression I'd gotten from the source.
I DO think setting soething up in Bridgeton would be a neat idea,...but from what I understand property rights would be quite an issue there. AND, there's only so much of the old ROW that's not privately owned.
But I'm not an expert on that area, anyway.
I still think it's a neat idea.
Maybe the threat of moving the whole operation might get the city's attention,....but then they might just tell you "Go for it."
Who knows?

htbrandes replied:
Quote
To answer the question about the ties.  During our track weekend we were forced to lay some standard gauge ties (too long a story for this forurm). Since then we have obtained a written waiver on our lease with MDOT which lets us officially put down ties that are less than standard gauge.

So...going forward we are going to lay 5'-0" ties on the mainline working on areas that need it most. The few new standard gauge ties that were laid last fall will be cut back to the same as the other new ties.

Joe Fox replied:
Quote
Glad to hear it. I remember seeing photos of the ties, and boy did they look funny.
_________________
“We are extremely proud of our collection of historical railroad equipment, which is the largest of any U. S. railroad, especially our steam locomotives.”
-Steve Lee-

Joe

Mike Fox replied:
Quote
Some of the original two footers did it that way. Using Standard Gauge ties with the 5 foot ties. Most notably was the SRRL Between Farmington and Strong, where some ties were replaced with standard gauge ties. Maine Central owned the line at the time so they probably supplied them or there was thought of standard gauging the line to some point north of Farmington.
Mike

Joe Fox replied:
Quote
I remember reading about them wanting to standard gauge part of the line, and also heard about it on the SR&RL tape we hvae here at the house.
_________________
“We are extremely proud of our collection of historical railroad equipment, which is the largest of any U. S. railroad, especially our steam locomotives.”
-Steve Lee-

Joe

Stewart Rhine replied:
Quote
Mike and Joe are correct.  At one time there was discussion of converting the SR&RL main line from Farmington to Strong to standard gauge.  The SR&RL did install some standard gauge ties, centering them on the track.  One reason for conversion was a planned move of the transfer/transloading tracks to Strong in a new yard with more room.  As we know, the conversion never occurred.

The difference with MNG is that they used standard gauge ties with the rails set towards one end of the tie.  The west rail was spiked down where the standard gauge running rail had been and the east rail was spiked to gauge, leaving a long portion of tie sticking out on the east side.   The original plan was to allow for a possible standard gauge track for dual-gauge use.

608
Archives (General) / Maine Central 470
« on: December 13, 2008, 04:03:04 AM »
MODERATORS NOTE:
Maine Central 470 has been converted from the pre-July 2008 WW&F Discussion Forum.
Some formatting may have been removed or modified from the original postings that appear quoted in this topic.
Information contained within this post may be superseded by more recent postings and conversations.

Stephen Hussar wrote:
Quote
Apologies for the non-narrow gauge content, but I thought those of you in Maine might be interested in seeing what Waterville plans to do with the 470. Image is from the city's official website. http://www.ci.waterville.me.us/470/images/470_design.jpg
Though not exactly etched in stone, it IS a plan....and a $1.8 million dollar plan at that. Some of you may recall that after our presentation to the city council, one of the members remarked that the city should simply hire "the guys down at the WW&F Museum" to perform the necessary work to the engine.

So in actuality there is a reason and connection for posting this here! 


_________________
*                *                    *                   *
"Give me enough Swedes and whiskey and I'll build a railroad to Hell."
- James J. Hill

Josh Botting replied:
Quote
I have seen this Loco many times, the buffet across the street is realy good.  I think it is the Talk of the Town Buffet.

Joe Fox replied:
Quote
That is interesting Steve. I didn't know that they had plans to do something like that for the 470. I have been up there with Dad to visit the engine, which is no longer fenced in, I don't think.

Joe

James Patten replied:
Quote
They should "hire the guys at Boothbay Railway Museum" to build it a new boiler (or rehab the old one).

Joe Fox replied:
Quote
Boothbay is starting to get a lot of people that want a boiler built for them, such as the W, W, & F, or the Conway Scenic, which wants the 501's boiler to be restored and repaired. I am not sure if they have any other museums that want them to work on any more steam engines or not.

Joe

Stephen Hussar replied:
Quote
James, I agree Boothbay could do it! The comment about the WW&F doing the work came completely out of the blue, and simply shows how "well thought of" the museum is (it may even have been the Mayor himself who said it -- I don't recall).

Interestingly however, through all of the various machinations I keep hearing that even if the locomotive was restored to operation, there'd be nowhere to run her. And I continue to wonder why, since the state of Maine owns the Rockland branch, could she not operate there?
_________________
*                *                    *                   *
"Give me enough Swedes and whiskey and I'll build a railroad to Hell."
- James J. Hill

Joe Fox replied:
Quote
If 470 was restored, they could lease the engine to a tourist railroad, so that way they can use it. I don't know if Conway Scenic would want a third operating steam engine, but there are a few other tourist railroads in the state of Maine that might want the engine. Or they could use it to pull a passenger train on a special event, or weekend, like what they do out in Ohio.

Joe

Mike Fox replied:
Quote
Need to tell the City of Waterville to contact Eric B. For the drawing part of their presentation. That doesn't look like the 470. Looks like a saddle tank 0-6-0. But I hope they do something like that. It would make a great welcome center for Waterville.
Mike

James Patten replied:
Quote
Conway Scenic only has one operating engine right now; MEC 501 is nowhere near operating condition.

It would be nice to have 470 operating on the Rockland Branch but I imagine it all comes down to liability for the operator.

As long as we're dreaming, don't forget there's always the B&ML.

Stephen Hussar replied:
Quote
Quote
It would be nice to have 470 operating on the Rockland Branch but I imagine it all comes down to liability for the operator.
As long as we're dreaming, don't forget there's always the B&ML.

Let's just use the city of Portland Oregon as an example. While they own the 4449 and the 700, both are maintained and operated by all-volunteer groups and are often times run on city and state owned trackage. But in order to access those tracks both engines routinely utilize UP and BNSF trackage. As a matter of fact the roundhouse where they live is owned by the UP and leased to the city.

I guess I can't understand why the same thing couldn't happen here. Remember, the Daylight was a park engine too, until Mr. Rowland came calling to use her for the Freedom Train.

You want dreaming? Maine became a state in 1820, which makes its bicentennial in 2020. 
_________________
*                *                    *                   *
"Give me enough Swedes and whiskey and I'll build a railroad to Hell."
- James J. Hill

ETSRRCo replied:
Quote
Quote
Need to tell the City of Waterville to contact Eric B. For the drawing part of their presentation. That doesn't look like the 470. Looks like a saddle tank 0-6-0. But I hope they do something like that. It would make a great welcome center for Waterville.
Mike

I am touched that you would mention me! (If you are referring to me lol) If someone could get me full side views and measurements and a lot of detail photos I could do a scale drawing of the 470. Would be fun.

Quote
I guess I can't understand why the same thing couldn't happen here. Remember, the Daylight was a park engine too, until Mr. Rowland came calling to use her for the Freedom Train

Speaking of Mr. Rowland I am firing for him on the 23rd! That should be interesting as I have never met the man before and now I am going to fire for him!

-Eric B.
_________________
Eric Bolton
East Tigard & Southern Railroad Co 1889-1958

Joe Fox replied:
Quote
Eric,

That is cool. What engine are you firing for?

Joe

ETSRRCo replied:
Quote

New Hope & Ivyland Railroad #40 
_________________
Eric Bolton
East Tigard & Southern Railroad Co 1889-1958

Joe Fox replied:
Quote
Oh. Great shot. I have a railcamp buddy that works on the New Hope & Ivyland Railroad, but he said that he doesn't know you, his name is Mike Mouldowney and he is an apprentice firemen.

Joe

ETSRRCo replied:
Quote
Yeah I am a student fireman too. I hope to be qualified before the end of the year. I have to take all my tests on the 27th. I havent met your friend yet but I have seen his name on the roster.
_________________
Eric Bolton
East Tigard & Southern Railroad Co 1889-1958

Stephen Hussar replied:
Quote
Quote
Speaking of Mr. Rowland I am firing for him on the 23rd! That should be interesting as I have never met the man before and now I am going to fire for him! -Eric B.

That's teriffic, Eric -- let us know how it goes! Bring a camera and ask someone to take a couple of pictures of you in the cab.
_________________
*                *                    *                   *
"Give me enough Swedes and whiskey and I'll build a railroad to Hell."
- James J. Hill

Josh Botting replied:
Quote
Earlier this year, a diesel passenger was run from Waterville to Millinockett.  Now that would be a cool trip.  Having grown up near that line, I would love to see the country from the rail, there are some beautyfull places along there.  That would be an amiazing run for the loco.....

Joe Fox replied:
Quote
I think that any steam engine that had a main line passenger run in the state of Maine would be a big hit, because you can't see a lot of Standard gauge steam locomotives in operation any more, unless you go to a tourist railroad.

Joe

Josh Botting replied:
Quote
From personal experience, prettymuch always living near the RR when in the Old Town/Orono/Alton areas, the lines see very little traffic.  Mostly at night.  Even less now with the closing of the OT mill.  However from walking the tracks, they are in awful condition up there.  Its a hope though.  If any one hears of a trip that way, I would really like to know, I saw some pictures of a speeder trip earlier in the year.....

James Patten replied:
Quote
I'm willing to accept nearly any bet you place that Guilford Transportation (or do we call it Pan Am now?) would never never ever allow a steam-powered excursion run on any of its trackage.  Look at the time and expense it took to get Amtrak to Maine.  Add a few zeros to the end of that to get steam going.

Stephen Hussar replied:
Quote
Yes, the 470 would have to traverse Pan Am trackage to get to the Rockland branch, but there's precedent for such a deadhead move.
_________________
*                *                    *                   *
"Give me enough Swedes and whiskey and I'll build a railroad to Hell."
- James J. Hill

Joe Fox replied:
Quote
It would be nice if Pan Am would let a steam train excursion go from Portland to Boston. That would be cool, but the 470 is a MEC locomotive, so I don't think it ever went to Boston. However, I think any spot on the MEC trackage would be great. Especially the Mountain Division would be cool.

Joe

Mike Fox replied:
Quote
You would Have to lay track to get the steamer to the Moutain Division.
Mike

Stephen Hussar replied:
Quote
I'd love to hear Allan's opinion on this, but in general terms if an operator made the proper arrangements, would the Downeaster route be available for a steam excursion due to Amtrak having usage rights?
_________________
*                *                    *                   *
"Give me enough Swedes and whiskey and I'll build a railroad to Hell."
- James J. Hill

Allan Fisher replied:
Quote
The Hauling of a steam locomotive - dead or live  - is up to the owner of the track. Only an Amtrak train has rights on Guilford - and every extra train , or train not covered by the Contract between Amtrak and Guilford (i.e equipped with steam locomotive, dead or live) would need Guilford's permission, and would need to meet Guilford's specific insurance requirements. When I was still working , the insurance requirement for steam locomotives on most Class I Railroads was a minimum of $20,000,000, and many Class 1 Railroads would not allow any steam moveseven if the operators could meet the insurance requirements.

Stephen Hussar replied:
Quote
Allan, thank you for the clarification.

For what it's worth I was recently told by the NPS in Lowell that Guilford was very supportive of the 410 project, assisting with the prep and ultimately moving the locomotive (by rail) from Billerica to Lowell free of charge.
_________________
*                *                    *                   *
"Give me enough Swedes and whiskey and I'll build a railroad to Hell."
- James J. Hill

Jon Dandridge replied:
Quote
Quote
You would Have to lay track to get the steamer to the Moutain Division.
Mike

I believe there is still a track connection to the rest of the world at Hazens - that is how Conway Scenic gets their equipment in. However it would be a pretty roundabout routing.

Jon

Mike Fox replied:
Quote
But between Conway and Fryeburg the track is very overgrown with some fishplates removed and even track removed in Fryeburg. Could be done though but would need some attention first.
Mike

BM1455 replied:
Quote
Hi all,
I too would love to see the 470 run again at some of the previously mentioned places.  Aside from whatever the moving issues would be the main problem may be weight restrictions.  I think the 470 was a heavier class pacific, where most of the Maine Central's pacifics were older lighter ones.  There may be weight issues on both the mountain division and the Rockland branch bridges.  I have never seen a photo of the 470 or her heavy sister 469 on any of these branches.  They seemed to stick only to the main line.  There may have been a real reason for this besides the newest engines staying on the main routs.
Any one know more about this?
Eric.

James Patten replied:
Quote
I have a book on the history of Maine railroads where I believe the cover has #470 on the Rockland branch.  But I'll have to look when I get home to be sure.

Stephen Hussar replied:
Quote
Just a nice shot of everyone's favorite pacific, the last time she was under steam.

_________________
*                *                    *                   *
"Give me enough Swedes and whiskey and I'll build a railroad to Hell."
- James J. Hill

James Patten replied:
Quote
The book I mentioned is The Best of Maine Railroads by Ron Johnson, and the front cover shows a picture of #470 on a Westbound passenger train in Waldoboro on the Rockland Branch in 1950.

Mike Fox replied:
Quote
Guess there is a home for it then. Those NIMBYs in Rockland would really fuss if that was sitting by the station, hissing away, then the compressor kicks on,etc.
Mike

James Patten replied:
Quote
I've thought the Rockland Branch would make a great home for a steam locomotive, with the turntable in Rockland and the wye in Brunswick.  Not to mention meeting up with narrow gauge steam when we get to Wiscasset someday (knock on wood).

Unfortunately the other lines out of Brunswick don't make for such a great run, unless the line through Augusta was restored and the engine ran to Waterville to get turned on the wye or table there (but then we deal with Guilford).

Steve Zuppa replied:
Quote
To heck with Waterville. What's wrong with the 470,, Brunswick to Rockland, with a meet in Wiscasset on the narrow gauge to...what...Weeks Mills? (Why not,by the time they get their s*** together,we could be there.) lol
S
_________________
"Keep to the code!"
Capt. Jack Sparrow

Stephen Hussar replied:
Quote
Quote
those NIMBYs in Rockland would really fuss if that was sitting by the station, hissing away, then the compressor kicks on,etc. Mike

Mike, I hope they would see it as a tourist magnet...from what I've been hearing the whole midcoast could use the kind of shot in the arm something like this would provide.
_________________
*                *                    *                   *
"Give me enough Swedes and whiskey and I'll build a railroad to Hell."
- James J. Hill

Mike Fox replied:
Quote
Yes, Brunswick to Rockland. Turn it on the Wye at Brunswick and the turntable at Rockland.
Mike

Bill Sample replied:
Quote
Last September, after nearly 40 years of driving on parallel US 1, I finally took "the alternate route."   Sue (who already had the mileage) dropped me off at Rockland, and picked me up at Wiscasset (as the WW&F connection didn't show up ).  I always thought the line would be scenic, but it was beyond what I had expected.  One thing would make it better - a native steam loco.
As Mike said the Rockland NIMBYs would probably pitch a fit, but in reality the steamer could slumber overnight quietly if the safety valve didn't pop and the generator and compressor feeds were shut off.  Sue would say my snoring would be louder than 470's

Stephen Hussar replied:
Quote
Making something like this happen would take a joint effort by the city, the state, and perhaps one of the transporation museums -- Cole or Owls Head... but it could be done.
And of course one individual would need to step forward -- a Percival, Atwood or Blount-type.

But never say never.
_________________
*                *                    *                   *
"Give me enough Swedes and whiskey and I'll build a railroad to Hell."
- James J. Hill

Jon Dandridge replied:
Quote
If you can't have a steam loco, an ex-NH FL9 covered wagon is the next best thing 

A little OT but is it reasonable that the WW&F could ever get back to Wiscasset? I was under the impression the right of way through town had been built up. I assume though that it would be possible to restore the trestle along the waterfront.

Jon

James Patten replied:
Quote
Restoring the WW&F to Wiscasset is a dream at current.  There are 2 or 3 houses parked on top of the roadbed, with 1 or 2 more inside the ROW; there's 3 roads to cross; the town owns the old shop area (it's now a ballfield); and the roadbed along the shore is slowly eroding away.  But never say never.

Mike Fox replied:
Quote
It would be Nice to restore part of the trestle and park something or build something on it to serve as a billboard. A shell of a caboose perhaps. Nothing that would ever run but just a little advertisement where someone might see it.
Mike

petecosmob replied:
Quote
Isn't there a perfectly good enginehouse in Rockland that could house the 470 overnight? I think the M&E trips START in Rockland in the am and run south, don't they?
Either way,....perhaps someone should begin trying to interest M&E in the idea, just to see if they will bite?
Cosmo

Bruce Wilson replied:
Quote
There seem to be several rail restoration projects and ideas either underway or in discussion stages within Maine.

Pan Am has reopened a freight line to Anson, I believe and the line from Brunswick to Lisbon Falls is now serviceable. Customers are being solicited and the City of Lewiston is aware of this lines existance and among transportation solutions being sought for the future. When you look at what has gone on with "the Port of Auburn", it is very encouraging.

Maybe a forum reader/contributor will have knowledge on where the "Flying Yankee" will take up residence (and on what tracks) that train will operate...?

But yes, the "470" would be right at home on the Brunswick to Rockland run.

I recall that former Gov. Angus King was pro-rail and attended the Wiscasset & Quebec centennial celebration in 1995. It seems that Gov. Baldacci has helped in setting the stage for rail to be replaced on the Maine Narrow Gauge routing into Portland, that which had been removed earlier this year.

I wonder if a citizens advisory committee might be formed. This committee could chart commercial and municipal rail projects, inventory available transportation corridors and equipment, and advise legislators on the needs and concerns of the rail tourist, rail commuters and museum operations.

A first step might be to create a contact with Maine D.O.T. and Amtrak, the Nat'l Association of Rail Passengers and one of the freight carriers.

In Auburn, the local economic growth council has ownership of a former Grand Trunk line (through Auburn and into Lewiston). There is approximately one mile of rail remaining, with some sections (including the bridge over the Androscoggin River) disconnected. But, it is the goal of this growth council, to keep the corridor intact. At the Lewiston "end", sits a beautiful old brick depot (currently for lease) and at the Auburn "end" is short, stretch of rail running under Pan-Am's mainline. A granite block tunnel allows the old G.T. trackage to pass under the former M.E.C. grade.

There is still a small network of switches and some yard trackage (buried in the grass) in what is now called "railroad park" in Lewiston. Also, within Lewiston sits an old steel 40' boxcar with no markings, painted red.

Sure would be nice to see the old grade get brush cut, the yard tracks be restored and that old boxcar moved over to the depot as a display. Hhmmm, maybe someone ought to write a letter or two...maybe I will

609
Archives (General) / Happy Thanksgiving
« on: December 13, 2008, 04:00:55 AM »
MODERATORS NOTE:
Happy Thanksgiving has been converted from the pre-July 2008 WW&F Discussion Forum.
Some formatting may have been removed or modified from the original postings that appear quoted in this topic.
Information contained within this post may be superseded by more recent postings and conversations.

Steve Zuppa wrote:
Quote
I'd like to take this opportunity to wish all the members and friends of the WW&F,as well as the posters and browsers of this forum, a Happy Thanksgiving.
Steve

Dave Buczkowski replied:
Quote
Thanks Two Ties and I add my wishes for a Happy Thanksgiving to all my friends at the Museum and forum posters as well as thanks for the wonderful year we had at the Museum. A lot of progress was made in 2006 and it's not over yet!
Dave

Steam replied:
Quote
Thanks, Steve...

Hope to see you all at the Victorian Christmas event!

Best wishes to all,
Richard Symmes

Stewart Rhine replied:
Quote
Steve, Good post.  There are many things to give thanks for.  A job, good health, family and friends.  Joining the WW&F has brought great friends, especially my best friend, Cindy who will become my wife next Spring.

bperch replied:
Quote
Stewart and Cindy,

I wish you the best of luck.  I met my wife, Joanne, through mutual friends that I met and worked with on the WK&SRR here in PA.  I always tell her that if it wasn't for the RR we would have never met one another.  Thirty-two years later and two lovely girls were the result.  I pray that it lasts more than another thirty two and that you two will equal or surpass the wonderful life Joanne and I have shared.

Bernie Perch

Bill Sample replied:
Quote
Happy Thanksgiving to all of the WW&F Family.  Looking forward to my next visit!
Guess there are a few "Railroad Romances" out there - think I know of least one other one at the WW&F!
I also met my wife Sue through a railroad group, in this case the RMNE in Connecticut.  We even tied the knot on the "back porch" of a business car at the RMNE's Naugatuck RR.

610
General Discussion / Post #1000!
« on: December 13, 2008, 04:00:17 AM »
MODERATORS NOTE:
Post #1000! has been converted from the pre-July 2008 WW&F Discussion Forum.
Some formatting may have been removed or modified from the original postings that appear quoted in this topic.
Information contained within this post may be superseded by more recent postings and conversations.

James Patten wrote:
Quote
This is post number 1000!!  Hurray to us!

It's been less than 3 months, hasn't it?

Bill Sample replied:
Quote
James, Thank you for all the time and effort you put into managing this forum.  As I've said before it is a great service to the distant members, helping us all to feel connected.  This forum moved right to the top of my "favorites" list once I had joined.

Stewart Rhine replied:
Quote
James,  I also thank you for starting the forum.  For me, it's like taking a 20 minute vacation to Maine.   I think I'm getting addicted to it!   

Stewart

James Patten replied:
Quote
I'm not only a member of Forum Posters Anonymous, I'm also the founder!

John McNamara replied:
Quote
Gee, James, I haven't heard Sy Sperling's trademark phrase "I'm not just the president, I'm also a client" advertising the Hair Club for Men for at least ten years!

Mike Fox replied:
Quote
My wife doesn't get as mad at me on here as she does on Ebay. Thanks James. Time well spent learning and reading what everyone else thinks.
Mike

James Patten replied:
Quote
Well Mike, the WW&F is a family-oriented place, we like to promote marital bliss.

Ira Schreiber replied:
Quote
That went fast. I second what was said about making us feel we are much closer to Maine than the map shows.
It's book-marked as my favorite, too.
Thanks,James, for all your efforts.
Ira Schreiber
Aurora, CO
Where temperature for Thankgiving is 70+ degrees!!

sgprailfan replied:
Quote
Congrats, just added to Favorites!

Stewart Rhine replied:
Quote
Sometimes the WW&f creates marital bliss ...

Dave Buczkowski replied:
Quote
If the well deserved kudos to James keep rolling in we'll hit 2000 before you know it. My wife much prefers my time at the Museum or talking about it to my having a mistress so it keeps me out of trouble. As for marital bliss, well, maybe if I cleaned the basement...
Dave

Wayne Laepple replied:
Quote
At this rate, we're gonna hit 2,000 in the next few days. Boy, do we have a lot to say!

Glenn Christensen replied:
Quote
Congratulations, James!!!

You deserve a lot of credit!  I think I read this forum more than any other.

Best Regards,
Glenn

611
Bridgton & Saco River Railway / locating Bridgton Junction
« on: December 13, 2008, 03:58:26 AM »
MODERATORS NOTE:
locating Bridgton Junction has been converted from the pre-July 2008 WW&F Discussion Forum.
Some formatting may have been removed or modified from the original postings that appear quoted in this topic.
Information contained within this post may be superseded by more recent postings and conversations.

Bruce Wilson wrote:
Quote
Can anyone help me in my search to locate where the Bridgton Junction station was at Hiram?

I was on the Maine Central right of way in Hiram today and saw evidence of the recent removal of what appears to have been a section house or other railroad storage building. This was "in town" west of the railroad bridge and right where the standard gage passing siding exists. I believe the mile marker there read Portland 37 Miles.

I proceeded to hike the MEC grade east to MP-36 without finding anything else.

Allan Fisher replied:
Quote
If the 1941 USGS map I just looked at is correct - the station was about 500 to 600 feet south and east of the river (MEC bridge)

Glenn Christensen replied:
Quote
Hi Bruce,

You walked right by it!  MP36 has to be pretty near to where the switch for the MEC interchange yard was.  Bridgton Junction depot was located at MP 36.3 (mileage from Portland) on the former Maine Central line.

From the location of the former Hiram depot, follow the line eastbound (towards Portland).  After you cross the bridge over the Saco River, the B&SR line swung in from the north (on your left) on a broad curve.  The depot  was a couple hundred yards on your left.

If you're headed towards Portland on Rt 113, the road crosses over the Saco River and immediately connects with Rt 117 on the northeern bank of the river.  Take a right at the junction of the two roads.  The two roads closely parallel the northern bank of the Saco for about 1/2 to 3/4s of a mile south.  The road crosses a small stream, this is the outlet for Hancock Brook.  At little further along, the road takes a right hand curve and starts up a hill.  There is a small house at this point with the hill immediately behind.  You can't see it but the B&SR grade runs behind the house on this hill.  The road continues a short distance uphill and then swings back to the left.  Very close to this point, there is another house at your left.  It either sits right on the grade or is darn close to it.  Bridgton Junction yard was immediately to your right.

I hope these directions help you find it.  I haven't been there in some 10 years.  Please let me know how the area looks.

Best Regards,
Glenn

Bruce Wilson replied:
Quote
Thanks Allan and Glenn, your help is very much appreciated.

As I write this, there is a photo of an eastbound Maine Central freight train approaching the Junction station on eBay. I estimated the distance from the bridge to the station, by the number of cars (40' boxcars) shown in the photo and multiplied by the number of cars and then I walked from the bridge out to where I thought the site should be and then kept going to MP-36. It just didn't "feel" right for some reason. Maybe because I was haunted by visions of film footage showing an eastbound passenger run steaming into the station, with the bridge way off in the distance. I'm now thinking that the film footage I was remembering was likely shot from across the Saco and my sense of direction was all off.

Anyway, I did go across the river and easily found the grade and followed it up to Joe Bennett's cottage. Before driving up the grade (with a street sign proclaiming "Narrow Gauge Trail - Private Way"), I noticed a small shed back in town that looked like it might have once had a use along a railroad line. After riding a few miles of the grade, I went back and took a photo of the shed. Once I get the film developed, I'll check to see if any similar structures appear in photos of the Bridgton narrow gage.

This is only my second trip to the B & SR searching for clues. An earlier trip this year landed me at Sandy Creek and provided a long and pleasant hike southward down the grade.

Next stop...Bridgton.

Thanks again to you both and to anyone else wishing to comment about surviving traces of this two footer.

Glenn Christensen replied:
Quote
Hi Bruce,

Sounds like you're making some good progress!

If memory serves, the place where you picked up Narrow Gauge Trail is at Rankins Mill.  The right of way crosses the main road to Convene at that point.  As you continue north towards Barker Pond, the rock cutting is at "Summit".

If you head back southbound from Rankins Mill, the right of way crosses the Convene road and then another side road which continues straight across over Hancock Brook.  This is the old "Double-barrelled road crossing".  The ROW stays on the north/west bank of the brook and passes behind a house sited up on the little knoll there.  This is where the northbound #7 was laid over on her side in the famous photograph.  A mile or so further south you will come to the Hancock Brook stone masonery arch where the narrow gauge actually crossed over to the south side of the brook and started up Smalls Mountain on its way to Bridgton Junction.  If you've not seen the arch, you really ought to.  I understand its still in pretty good shape.  (It was in excellent shape the last time I saw it.)

Of course this is the long way in.  Its easier and shorter to walk in to the arch from the site of Smalls lumber yard.

Wish I could be there with you!

Best Regards,
Glenn

PS- there used to be a lot of discarded ties (some still with spikes) scattered along the right of way on the steep upgrade from Hancock Pond to the "Notch".  Be sure to check it out.

Mike Fox replied:
Quote
Bruce,
The way I ploted the exact location of the station was the old telephone poles that were barely visible. Just about a foot was left standing. Comparing their location with photo's I was able to estimate where it stood. Hope you found the turntable pit and enginehouse remains while there. And Did you see the Hancock Brook arch? I plan a return trip again shortly so I can take some good photos while the leaves are gone and there is no snow.  Most of the Grade between Sandy River and Hancock Pond is accessible by 2WD truck with a little luck. And you can drive through the notch by taking a camp road.
Some things in Bridgton to see, the canning factory foundation (it never opened) and the coal trestle on the Harrison branch. The Bridge over Stevens brook on the Harrison branch still had the framework in place until a couple of years ago. And it is still possible to see several of the abutments on the Harrison branch. If you would like directions to other locations, let me know or email Dana and we can probably help you out. I live fairly close so am very farmiliar with the area.
Mike

Bruce Wilson replied:
Quote
Glenn, Mike and Allan,

Thank you so much for the wealth of information you have provided. I do plan to visit the Bridgton line again and will use your recollections and suggestions as a guide to my own continuing exploration. I am embarrased to admit how much I overlooked on my last survey of the property.

Maybe I can catch up with you guys at Sheepscot and compare notes, but I will be heading to the B & SR country as soon as possible. Hopefully, before the snow comes...

If I can get a little advanced notice on the next trip, I'll post here and offer to meet anyone interested at the Hiram yard.

Thanks again...

John McNamara replied:
Quote
As you enter Bridgton on route 302 northbound, you will see a school and associated athletic fields on your left,as you probably know. On the opposite side of 302, there is a gas station, and the right of way is immediately to the right of the gas station building.

Mike Fox replied:
Quote
Bruce,
I would be glad to meet with you for a trip over the B&SR. I covered it all once in about 4 hours. Saw most of it.  Been kind of wet up here lately so I think a couple of spots might be wet but if it stays cold enough, it will harden.
Mike

Bruce Wilson replied:
Quote
Thanks for your info John and to Mike, I look forward to taking you up on your offer. Perhaps I could meet you at Hiram some Sunday morning. I'll be at Sheepscot tomorrow morning. Maybe we can talk more then...

Dana Deering replied:
Quote
How did I miss THIS entire discussion??  Shame on me.  Hope I haven't missed the chance to get in on the B&SR trip.  I know a few points of interest.

Dana

Mike Fox replied:
Quote
Dana,
I think you know the B&SR better than most. I need to get out there again soon before snow flies. Want to get some good photos.
Mike

Duncan Mackiewicz replied:
Quote
Dana, I feel the same way.  How too did I miss out on this discussion?  I have a wealth of pictures taken by me from along the right of way from Bridgton to Hiram.  My most recent pics were taken during the summer of '05 to the left of 302 where it approaches the center of Bridgton.  There are several beautiful stone abutments (minus bridges of course) on the right of way as it passes from where the new Hanaford's is located to the edge of the road leading to Sandy Creek by the town dump/disposal station.  I also have a video that I created over the course of several summers that documents most of the right of way from Bridgton to Bridgton Junction.  There is a fellow who has written several books in the Images of America series on the towns around Bridgton.  He and his wife have an extensive picture collection as well as personal knowledge of the B&H/B&SR.  They are Diane and Cliff Barnes and coincidently live along the B&H right of way in Hiram.  There are many areas of interest on the old right of way where abutments and culverts can be found as well as the old turntable pit in Hiram.
I would be happy to bring those pics or even the video to the museum some time if anyone is interested.
Duncan

Glenn Christensen replied:
Quote
Hi Duncan,

As an old B&SR fan, I'd love to see your photos.  But living in Georgia makes to hard to get up to the museum as often as I would like.

It would be wonderful if there was some way to get your photos posted on the web at some point.

Best Regards,
Glenn

Mike Fox replied:
Quote
Glenn and Duncan,
I have asked the owner of NE Rail to create a B&SR section. I want a place to display some of the current photos as well as a place for people to share the older ones they have. I am hoping to get over there this week while we still have no snow up here yet.
Mike

Duncan Mackiewicz replied:
Quote
Glenn and Mike,
I would love to log in my pics. However, I'm not sure how clearly they would come out since they were all shot 35mm rather than digital and I'd have to scan them.  If Nerail can start a file I'd be willing to give it a try.
If a file is created I'm sure others would be willing to post pics they have as well.  We lovers of the B&H could then share and enjoy each other's efforts.

Mike Fox replied:
Quote
I have put in the request. I just don't know how long it will take to create it.
Mike

Bruce Wilson replied:
Quote
Duncan,

I'd love to see your photos. Any chance you might consider bringing them to the museum during the 2007 annual meeting?

Bruce

Duncan Mackiewicz replied:
Quote
Bruce,
I'd love to bring the album I've created to the museum but it won't be for the annual meeting.  I won't be making the trip at that time.  However, since Mike has just noted on another of the Bridgton blogs that Nerail has opened a spot for the B&H, I will try to start uploading my pictures to Nerail.  That way anyone and everyone will be able to view them.
Duncan

Bruce Wilson replied:
Quote
Thanks Duncan, will look forward to seeing your photos on NERAIL.

Duncan Mackiewicz replied:
Quote
Bruce,
I've started putting a few digital pictures on Nerail since the B&SR file is now open.  Mike has already loaded quite a few nice picks as well.  As soon as I get a bit of free time I will start scanning my 35mm photos and upload them as well.
Duncan

Bruce Wilson replied:
Quote
Duncan,

Thanks, I've been enjoying the B & H photos as they are posted. Can't wait to get over to the old railbed and do some more exploring.

Bruce

Duncan Mackiewicz replied:
Quote
Bruce,
Ditto for me.  The B&H is my first love and it's responsible for my interest in the 2 footers in general and the WW&F in particular.  Who would have thought that a simple week's vacation camping in Maine could lead to so many new friends and such a worthwhile pursuit as the 2 footers.
Duncan

Bill Sample replied:
Quote
Thanks to Mike for the Maine Aerial Photography site.  Just got done using that and a back up of vintage topo maps from the UNH site to explore the B&SR from the junction to Bridgton.  Tracing this line seems a lot easier than the WW&F or SR&RL portions that I have checked out.
This also helped me to locate Bridgton Jct. for future use.

Bruce Wilson replied:
Quote
I read you Duncan, I can't get enough either. For me, it has been a thrill to walk on the areas that I have only been able to read about or interpret through photographs. The aerial mapping is helpful and I'm reminded of a time when Harry Percival set out from Wiscasset riding shotgun in a helicopter. He was intending to film the W.W. & F. right of way through the lense of a borrowed camera. Soon after liftoff, he developed motion sickness from staring through the camera lense at the rapidly moving countryside below. He lasted until somewhere in the Alna area and had to set down. Don't know if that project ever went any further...

Anyway...it has been a blast to see all the helpful and enthusiastic postings in this discussion forum. It seems a great way for everybody to keep in touch.

I set out to explore Bridgton Junction yesterday, but called it off due to the snow and my van not being very good on slippery roads. I didn't want to chance walking the MEC grade and falling off the Saco River bridge in Hiram either...so, another day and I'll try again.

Last trip I found two spikes, a pair of joint bars and saw Dana's coal memorial.

Mike Fox replied:
Quote
I remember finding the joint bars in the yard area. The were partially burried so I pulled them out. We brought a couple home but left the rest there. If I remember right, it was a hot day and they were in the sun. Like playing a game of hot potato. And if you don't want to cross the bridge, the way I do it is park on the old road next to 113/5. There is a logging landing there. Then just walk the old road to the south end of the yard or just go to the north end. It is only a couple hundred feet from the landing toward the bridge.
Mike

Bruce Wilson replied:
Quote
Mike,

Then I have you to thank for the joint bars...

I left three others in the same spot, and for the same reason as you left the ones you found.

There are more spikes of course, and Dana could build a much larger coal memorial if he chose to do so...

Mike Fox replied:
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Yes, there are many more stumps to cover.
Mike

Dana Deering replied:
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Guys,

If I had had room in my pack I would have packed out my memorial to burn in one of our locomotives.  Now I'm glad that I left it.
Ditto to Duncan's post.  The B&SR is my first love as well.  I was lucky that my grandmother was a closet B&SR fan.  She took some photos, which I have, and she was the first to get me hooked.  Her brother was also a fan and she got us talking one day (mind you I was about 8 years old) and next thing you know he lent me Moody's book.  And you all know how the "affliction" progresses from there.  Later I was in the barber shop and saw a little ad for RR Magazine so I took some of my hard earned lawn mowing money and subscribed.  It was through that mag that I bought my own copy of Moody's.  Then for Christmas 1969 I got Busted and Still Running from my grandmother.  In 1970-1 another friend of my grandmother, Ernest Ward, who had been a brakeman on the B&SR, published  My First Sixty Years in Harrison, Maine.  One day my grandmother took me to visit him and he told me some stories about the B&SR and I got an autographed copy of his book, which has one of the best descriptions of a B&SR logging train operation that I have ever seen.
Even luckier for me was the fact that my family had camps on Hancock Pond and in 1969 my folks bought a lot right across the road from the B&SR roadbed near the Swamp Road.  At that time the West Sebago Station was still standing and I explored it as often as I could.  I walked the ROW every time we were at camp and back then there were a lot of ties and spikes still in situ and I collected quite a few.  And I still explore using the camp as my base whenever I go up.
If that wasn't enough I later found out that my great-great grandfather, Loren Merrifield, was Section Foreman on Section 2, which included the Hancock Pond area.  What fun to know that I have B&SR DNA!  There are photos of him in TFTTL.
Anyway, if any of you are still awake, let's set a date to get all of us together and take a B&SR field trip.  We really should pool all of our bits of knowledge and we could all learn a lot more about this great little road.  We could use our camp as our base if you like.  It's just about at the half way point on the RR.

Dana

Stewart Rhine replied:
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Dana, I really enjoyed reading your post.  It's interesting to see the history you and your family have with the B&SR/B&H.  I'll have to dig around and see what other B&SR stuff I have to post.

Mike Fox replied:
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Dana,
Don't worry about boring any of us. I like reading the short stories that some post on here. Wish I had one for myself. I just describe myself to others as a nut. In fact, that is my ebay user name. Miketrainnut. Anyhow, got anymore stories, type away.
Mike

612
Bridgton & Saco River Railway / Bachmann On30 2-4-4
« on: December 13, 2008, 03:57:41 AM »
MODERATORS NOTE:
Bachmann On30 2-4-4 has been converted from the pre-July 2008 WW&F Discussion Forum.
Some formatting may have been removed or modified from the original postings that appear quoted in this topic.
Information contained within this post may be superseded by more recent postings and conversations.

ETSRRCo wrote:
Quote
I have been looking at what I hope will be my next addition to my model railroad collection and my second On30 locomotive. The Bachmann Spectrum On30 2-4-4. It comes in both inside and outside frame. I would prefer the outside frame but since I forgot to tell my parents that in the Christmas list I have started to look at the inside frame version. When I looked at the photo I couldn't help but remember a photo of B&SR #6 The Bachmann model could be made to look just like the #6 with what looks like few modifications. Tell me what you think.

-Eric


_________________
Eric Bolton
East Tigard & Southern Railroad Co 1889-1958

Joe Fox replied:
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That is a wonderful looking model. Do you think it could possibly be W, W, & F #7?

Joe

sgprailfan replied:
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I thought of this one too. I thought I would rather model ww&f #7 witch would require the other type of frame.

ETSRRCo replied:
Quote
You mean this style?




This would need much heavier modifications to look like the 7.




It could be done. The drawing is my own.
_________________
Eric Bolton
East Tigard & Southern Railroad Co 1889-1958

ETSRRCo replied:
Quote
Wow you know what. After looking at the photo and the drawin I can see that it can deffenitly be done. I know what  I'm doing to mine when I get it!! 
_________________
Eric Bolton
East Tigard & Southern Railroad Co 1889-1958

sgprailfan replied:
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So did you get the forney?

613
Bridgton & Saco River Railway / Bridgton Junction
« on: December 13, 2008, 03:56:35 AM »
MODERATORS NOTE:
Bridgton Junction has been converted from the pre-July 2008 WW&F Discussion Forum.
Some formatting may have been removed or modified from the original postings that appear quoted in this topic.
Information contained within this post may be superseded by more recent postings and conversations.

Mike Fox wrote:
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In case anyone is interested, someone has recently cut off where the Junction yard used to be. It is now possible to see the yard layout better. I am waiting for the leaves to drop before returning again before snowfall to get some pictures. Please contact me if you need directions to the yard area or any other part of the railroad you would like to see for yourself.

Dana Deering replied:
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Hey Mike,

Let me know the date you plan to go there.  I'd like to join you.  I've seen the Junction Yard a couple of times in the bushes but it would be nice to see it with a clearer picture of just how things were laid out.

Dana

Mike Fox replied:
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I'll try. Might be a last minute thing or something. One never knows.
Mike

Glenn Christensen replied:
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Hi Guys,

I'm in Georgia - too far away to join you I'm afraid - but I have visited the Jct site (in fact the whole B&SR) many times.  The last time I was there (10+years ago), the oil transfer pipe was still there as were the remains of the coal shed, railbus #2, and the ornamental posts from the Jct depot - still painted red.  You can also see where the mainline fill was bulldozed away by Mr.Atwood's movers to make loading the B&SR rolling stock easier.

While you're there, be sure to visit the Hancock Brook stonemasonary arch.  Just about a mile up the old grade, just north of the site of Scribners mill.

Be sure to bring a metal detector!

As an old B&SR fan, I'd love to hear what you find!

Best Regards,
Glenn

Stephen Hussar replied:
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Dana, which one of these lines did you take your mtn bike on? I'd love to bring mine before it snows! 

Mike Fox replied:
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Glenn, last time I was there over this summer I found an old post of where the coal shed used to be. I had to look at photos to find the right angle of what it was to figure it out. I must have missed the railbus.  I bet I thought it was an old abandoned car. I'll look harder at it next time. Will keep you posted. As for the stone arch, still holding. Still looks as great as ever. They don't build them like that anymore.
Mike

Glenn Christensen replied:
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Thanks Mike!

It would be great to hear what you find.

Best Regards,
Glenn

Dana Deering replied:
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Steve,

I have biked from our camp at Hancock Pond all the way to Sandy Creek northward and from Hancock Pond all the way south to the crossing at the East Hiram Road "Buttermilk Falls".  I could have gone farther south but time didn't permit.  There is one place going south where part of the roadbed has been filled with debris but you can easily get around it to reach the Hancock Brook Arch, which is well worth seeing.
I had no idea that railbus 2 still languished at the Jucntion.  Can't wait to go back and explore sans underbrush.
Anybody know if there are drawings of the West Sebago Station somewhere?  When I was a kid and we first bought our camp lot on Hancock Pond what was left of it (three sides and part of the roof) were still standing at the spot where it had been moved to, on the corner of Hancock Pond and Swamp Roads right next to the old ROW.  Wish I had taken some photos!  The station was first located at the other end of Hancock Pond a few hundred feet south of the water tank.  There was a siding there, too where logs, apples, and other freight was loaded.  After the RR quit my great uncle bought the lot there and built a home on the shore.  He had a large section of the roadbed taken out but you can still see where the station sat and a portion of the siding.  The station was on the easterly sid of the tracks just before the railroad entered a neat little cut that is still there.
I have spent countless hours exploring the B&SR and now take my nieces and nephew on what we call "spike walks".

Dana

Stephen Hussar replied:
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Thanks, Dana. I'm going to try to make it up there sometime in the next couple of months.

Stewart Rhine replied:
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Hey Mike,  I was in the Jct yard 3 or 4 years ago.  It was over grown but we found the foundation for the engine house with the water pipes intact.  We also went up to Bridgton to look at the surviving coal trestle that is on the Harrison Branch.  It is not far from the area of the Bridgton Yard and can be found in the woods alongside the Harrison Branch.  The trestle bents are on concrete footers and use iron brace plates so parts of the trestle are intact.

Stewart

Mike Fox replied:
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Hi Stewart. Yes we found all that also. And Joe and I only live 15 minutes from Bridgton. We saw the trestle this summer. I never knew it existed until one of the books I have had a photo in it. Then the search was on. Amazing any of it is still standing.
Mike

Glenn Christensen replied:
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Hi Dana,

I don't know of any plans of the West Sebago station, but if memory serves me, it looked very similar to the SR&RL's Powder Storage Shed in Kingfield.  It at least had the people door/ freight door trackside layout of the B&SR depot.  The SR&RL building was 10'4" X 20'4" and a drawing of it can be found in Gary Kohler's Two Foot Cyclopedia on Kingfield.  One big difference between the two was that the B&SR stucture had clapboards  and the SR&RL building was shingled.

The late Bob Outland gave me a copy of a B&SR property sheet that I believe lists the size of the B&SR building.  I don't know where it is at the moment, but please contact me off list if you need these for modeling purposes and I'll try to dig it out.

I recall the remains of a small shed type building just north of the site of the current Swamp Road crossing in West Sebago.  It was just a short distance north of where Swamp Road crosses today at what could have been an earlier alignment of it.  The "shed" was about 12"  high at the time and the remains may have rotted away by now.  I do remember wondering at the time if it could have been what was left of the resited West Sebago depot.

I also understand that the original Hancock Tank building still survives in the vicinity of Joe Bennett's cottage on Hancock Pond.  It was moved uphill (east) from the right-of-way to a spot up closer to Hancock Pond Rd and adapted to another purpose.

Best Regards,
Glenn

PS - the last I knew, the South Bridgton depot sign was mounted on a house on the hill in South Bridgton at the northwest corner of Rt 107 and Ingalls Road/Fosterville Road.  Is it still there?  My recollection is that the South Bridgton station and the West Sebago depot were very similar in design.

Dana Deering replied:
Quote
Hi Glenn,

Thanks for the info about the West Sebago Station.  The remains you saw at Swamp Road were indeed all that was left of it.  You can still go there and clear the pine needles away and find the base of the building.  The next time I am at camp I intend to take some measurements.
When I was younger I was told that the Hancock Pond Tank was dismantled and used to build a camp somewhere near Joe Bennet's cottage.  The camp was pointed out to me and is just south of JB's.  Who knows?  People get their info mixed up and it could have been moved somewhere else.  When I was a kid there was a store in part of the Bennet camp and we would walk down and buy penny candy.  The flag holder that was used to flag trains to stop there was still attached to the porch but is gone now.  My mother's uncle used to have the Railroad Crossing sign from the Hancock Pond Road crossing hung over his garage door but it has since been donated to the Sebago Historical Society.
My grandmother was quite a fan of the B&SR and I have some of the photos she took.  She was friends with Ernest Ward, a one time brakeman for the B&SR who wrote "My First Sixty Years in Harrison, Maine".  I got to meet him back in the 60's and it was interesting to talk with him even though I was only about 10 years old!
Another question:  Apparently the B&SR owned a derrick car.  Are there any photos or drawings of it in existence?

Dana

Mike Fox replied:
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Dana, I remember seeing a picture of that someplace. It was in the background of a photo I think. Or I might be thinking of another RR altogethjer. I'll have to look. I have got atleast 7 books on the B&H so it will take time to find it, if I can.

Dana Deering replied:
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Glenn,

The last time I went through South Bridgton the sign was gone.  I know that a while back it was stolen and later recovered so maybe the owner doesn't want to risk losing it again.

Mike,

I have seen the photos of the West Sebago station in the Bridgton Books.  I need to get some measurements.  What is interesting is the station only had one window, and I can remember that from when it was still standing.  In one of the photos you mention the building seems to be in a spot different from the original location.  The track map that the Bridgton Historical Society has shows it in the original location on the southerly end of the Hancock Pond section along with the siding.  This was immeditaley before the railroad entered a cut (which is still there) as it swung down to the shore of the pond.  The photo I mention doesn't show the cut and I wonder if the station was moved northward to serve Camp Wabanki and then moved north again after the railroad was abandoned.  Who knows?

Dana

Glenn Christensen replied:
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Hi Dana,

Based on the available video and phoyographic evidence I believe that the West Sebago station was indeed moved.  The best evidence for this is the Sunday River productions video, which shows the postmaster in West Sebago waiting at the depot, mailbag in hand, when the northbound railbus was pulling in.  The location does not look like the original West Sebago location, but rather the northeast corner of the Swamp Road crossing.

As to when the move might have happened, I would guess the 30s.  The reason for the move.  Probably for the convenience of the postmaster, since the mail was by that time probably the biggest reason for the station's continued existence.  The old station was also sited in a "non-level" location.  Transferring any kind of freight at Swamp Road would have been much easier.  The Hancock Pond road crossing was on the upgrade from the pondside and probably too near the camps for it to be a practical alternative.  Swamp Road might have been closer to the end of the postmaster's local delivery area as well.

Best Regards,
Glenn

Dana Deering replied:
Quote
Hi Glenn,

I have never seen that video.  Now you've piqued my curiosity.  I have a nice photo of one of my grandmother's friends balancing on the rails on the upgrade to the Hancock Pond Road crossing.  You can see the crossing sign in the background, and it shows just how the railroad left the shore of the pond and veered off.  (My grandmother is the one who first got me hooked on the B&SR and fed my 2 footer addiction.)
I'm still wondering if the West Sebago Station was moved twice.  There is a photo in Two Feet to the Lakes that shows what is supposed to be the West Sebago Station and it is not near the cut nor is the Swamp Road anywhere to be seen.

Dana

Mike Fox replied:
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Dana, We have a copy of that video here. I'll get Joe to make you a copy and we'll give it to you Saturday the 7th.
Mike

Bruce Wilson replied:
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To all,

If any of you fellows are interested in a caravan tour of the Bridgton line, please let us know here. I would love to follow along with someone who knows the layout.

Bruce

Dana Deering replied:
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Hi Everyone,

I got home last night after a very busy and very successful Fall Work Weekend and, not having gotten my fill of two footers (it's been over 40 years now and I don't think I'll ever get enough), I sat down and watched the Sunday River video that Mike and Joe Copied for me (Thank You!).  The footage is great but the narration is chock full of errors.  I saw the brief clip of the postmaster waiting for the Bus at what they claim is West Sebago Station but I think that is an error.  I think that is the South Bridgton Station due to its location on the East side of the track and to the fact that it has two doors on the track sid and the West Sebago Station only had one. Also, the road location would make sense for South Bridgton because the South Bridgton (Ingalls) Station weas on that corner of the intersection of Ingall's Road and the B&SR. They must have been picking up the South Bridgton mail.
I would be willing to act as a guide for at least part of a B&SR tour.  I am very familiar with the track from the East Hiram Road, just north of the Hancock Brook Arch, to Sandy Creek.  Perhaps others could fill in the gaps.  I think we could have a great time.
Here's a question:  I have explored around Deep Cut a couple of times looking for evidence of Cold Spring.  This was a spring that came up right in the roadbed during construction and was piped off to the side.  It became a regular unofficial stop for many trains.  I have not been able to find it.  I would think that the piping might still survive and I always thought it would border on a Two Foot spiritual experience to get a drink from it.Dana

Glenn Christensen replied:
Quote
Hi Dana,

The late Bob Outland showed me the actual location of Cold Spring on a trip to B&SR country some years ago.  It is actually located between Perleys Mills (mp 8.99) and Ingalls Rd (mp 10.44) stations on the east side of the roadbed, just beyond the point where the ROW straightens out for the run north to Ingalls.  As I recall,  Deep Cut is just south of the last Willett Brook crossing below Sandy Creek and well north of the site of the "official South Bridgton" (mp 12.07) station.

Best Regards,
Glenn

Joe Fox replied:
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Have any of you guys, besides Dana, riden down most of the old B. & S R rr bed? Me and my dad have. It is a shame that nobody has started or tried starting a two foot gauge railroad recreating the B&SR because of how scenic it is. However, teenagers and adults now a days could care less about railroads. But they should remember that it is the railroad that made our country so strong, and made towns become as big as they are now.

Joe

Dana Deering replied:
Quote
Hey Everyone,

Here's another question.  I have a photo of my great-great grandfather, Loren Merrifield, when he was a Section Foreman for the B&SR.  It was taken in front of Joe Bennett's cottage on Hancock Pond, which is where the Lakeside Section House was located for Section 2, which was his Section.  The photo shows him on a four wheeled pump car.  There is a later photo of this same pump car with different wheels on it found in Two Feet to the Lakes.  Anyone know what happened to it?  Or what happened to other B&SR handcars?  Did they go to Edaville?  The scrap heap?  Velocipedes are nice but a four wheeled rig would be easier to balance, I think.  Just more food for thought.  Oh, the Lakeside Section House appears in the Maine Two Footers film taken around 1937 but it was in sad shape.  By 1940-1 it had been removed or torn down.  According to the track maps that the Bridgton Historical Society has there was also a Section House at Gravel Pit, where there was also a long siding.  I wonder where the other section houses were located?

Dana

Mike Fox replied:
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Dana, One video or picture I forget which, shows the handcar that someone had lettered B&SR, WW&F, SRRL, KC and Monson outside of one of the buildings at Edaville. I thought it was something made up at a latter time but in someones railfan video of the '37 -'40 era, there is that car headed top speed south out of Bridgton yard. And they were cooking.  Lettered like it was in Edaville. Maybe it is at Maine Narrow guage now. It must still be around. Maybe the description will get someone thinking and let us know the wherabouts of that one.
Mike

James Patten replied:
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That handcar was rescued by Lawrence "Brownie" Brown from the mudflats in Wiscasset and rebuilt.  It now is at Boothbay Railway Museum.  For the last few years we had borrowed it for the Annual Picnic.  Well now we have our own so we don't need to!

Mike Fox replied:
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See, I knew I had seen that someplace. Thanks James

Bruce Wilson replied:
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I'm trying to learn more about both the origins of the former Lawrence Brown handcar and the two foot narrow gage railroad that Mr. Brown had constructed at his home in Gardiner, Maine.

Years ago with others from the W.W. & F. Ry. Museum, I visited "Brownie" at his home in Belgrade Lakes. He told our group that the marine railway he had constructed from his property into the lake was built with rail salvaged from the Wiscasset trestle.

I'm curious if the marine railway was laid with the same rail used in his earlier operation at Gardiner, later transplanted to the Belgrade Lake property.

I have one photo of his track in Gardiner after a snow storm had been cleared from the tracks. I believe there are other photos of his railroad and just purchased another on eBay that also shows Gardiner and the handcar.

I think that within my Bridgton photo collection (of railfan excursion trips), that the same handcar is evident and being used by fans within the Bridgton yard.

After reading Dana's question about where the Bridgton handcars went, I too am now wondering.

ekmissal replied:
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Hi,
I just found this photo of B&H engine #8 on ebay, item #180045383525. I thought someone might be interested in it.
Erik

Joe Fox replied:
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I will have to take a quick look at that. Do you know where the photo wsa taken?

Joe

Joe Fox replied:
Quote
Ok, the photo was taken in Brigton Junction, in fron of the coal shed. The caption says that it was taken in 1941, and that is very possible. You can also see the platform, with the pole barn type roof, or what ever the technical name for it is. Talk to you later.

Joe

Dana Deering replied:
Quote
Hi all,

I am reasonably sure that the ebay phot was taken at the time the B&H was abandoned or shortly thereafter.  Number 8 was moved to that spot in front of the coal shed and sat there for quite a while.  There are post abandonment photos taken from other angles that show her sitting there.  There is one photo in Ernest Ward's My First Sixty Years in Harrison, Maine that shows her sitting there surrounded by a lot of freight cars in various stages of deterioration.  I am not sure when she was moved from that spot.  I don't think she was moved into the engine house but I'm not sure.  The most striking thing to me is the condition of her paint.  I think she was repainted shortly before the B&H quit.  I have seen photos taken of her in the winter of 1941 (Feb, I think) and she didn't look as good as she does in the photo.  I had the good fortune to ride in her cab when she first came back to Portland.  She is a bit of a coal hog but I remember how smoothly she rode!

Dana

Joe Fox replied:
Quote
The only thing good about the 7 & 8 are their size and power. They can pull a decent sized train, without much problem, but as you said Dana, they can be great coal hogs.

Joe

Dana Deering replied:
Quote
Joe,

7 is a lot easier on coal than 8 and 8 is tricky to fire.  In order to get her to steam right, at least this is what I was told when I was riding at Portland, you have to build a thick bank in the rear of the firebox and make it thinner as you reach the tube sheet.  I don't know if 8 has a petticoat pipe that is adjustable but that may have something to do with it.  I do know that Everett Brown of the B&H never liked 8 because she was not economical to run.  Why the Maine Central bought such a heavy locomotive for the B&SR in 1924, when the handwriting was already on the wall, is a mystery to me.  Too bad they hadn't bought SR&RL #9. She was a good steamer and would have suited the Bridgton's traffic demands.  Makes me sick just to think of anyone putting the torch to those beautiful Baldwins...

Dana

James Patten replied:
Quote
Somebody told me story about #8 at Edaville - could have Bruce or Jason, I don't know which.  Anyway it was during the Christmas lights season, which is when #7 and #8 usually ran.  #7 broke down somewhere out on the line with a full train.  #8 was behind it, also with a full train.  They coupled #8 up to the back of 7's train (with it's own train still behind it), opened the throttle, and eventually #8 moved the entire train along and returned to the station.

It would be a better story if I could remember the number of cars.  I think it was in the 20s.

Bruce Wilson replied:
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James,

Probably 9 passenger cars (including caboose) per train, much more than that and the consist became too long to fit the Edaville station platform.

The locomotive would need to spot on the water tank and not have too much of the train down grade of the station, and still out beyond the home signal guarding the approach.

At times in Edaville's operations a gas-mechanical lokie would be kept on the facing point switch (snack bar siding) and assigned the duty to give the heavy Christmas trains a push out of the station. When conditions warranted, one of the G.E. diesels would be assigned this duty and sometimes the pusher unit would go beyond the outbound yard limit, shoving for all its worth.

The longest train I ever had was 9 cars and that was the maximum that G.E. diesel no. 2 could handle up Cranberry Valley grade, through Ball Park curve and up Mount Urann. I had a full tonnage train one day and was ordered to push another full tonnage train in from MP-3 to Edaville station. Ahead of my engine was boxcar No. 13 with a generator set inside. What a feeling to know that all the stresses of movement were passing through that cars framing as we pushed the cripple in.

Joe Fox replied:
Quote
That is interesting. The only bad thing is though, the longer your train with those locomotives, you seem to just about tripple your coal usage, from what I have been told.

Joe

Bruce Wilson replied:
Quote
No doubt Joe... the more work to be done, the more coal to be consumned.

For a brief period in the 1980's, Edaville was in a rather unique position with regards to coal. Affiliate (Bay Colony Railroad) brought in standard gage hopper cars of coal to a dealer having a siding in Hanson, MA. The coal was offloaded and then trucked the final (short) haul to Edaville.

The cost of coal was certainly noticed at Edaville, but that is what the crowds came for...coal smoke, steam and the Christmas display.

Interestingly, Linwood Moody wrote a cost comparison on coal burning steam locomotives and diesel-oil fueled, diesel-electric locomotives. He wrote this comparison while employed as a station agent on the Belfast & Moosehead Lake Railroad at Brooks, Maine.

Moody cites the efficiency of the G.E. 70 tonners, although he laments the demise of the venerable steamers.

I'll bet he'd have fun today comparing the differences between the Edaville G.E. 23 ton diesel-electric and the oil-fired Hudswell-Clarke steam locomotive now in use at Edaville.

I've been assigned to both machines, they are two distinctly different locomotives...

Joe Fox replied:
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I was watching a tape on the Maine Central Mountain division, I know this has nothing to do with this topic, and it took 3 2-8-2 mikado's to pull a 50 car freight train up to Crawford notch, and it took about 5-8 deisle's to pull a 50 car freight train up Crawford Notch. One thing good about steam, is you have more horsepower, however, this isn't all ways the case.

Joe

Bruce Wilson replied:
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Joe,

There is a spot near the top of a long grade, just east of Hiram where an east-bound freight came to a stop. A four axle diesel must've sat spinning its wheels with too heavy a train for the grade. You can see where the wheels have ground right into the rail head and left "craters".

I walked the whole area there a few months ago looking for where the Bridgton Junction was. I was way (east) of the junction location.

Mike Fox replied:
Quote
Bruce,
Is that below the power plant or in that area. Or near the swamp. East of Hiram would be towards Portland and was wondering where they are. Might be something worth looking at.
Mike

Joe Fox replied:
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That sounds interesting Bruce. I wonder how many spot were like that on the Mountain Division from Bartlette, up to Crawfords.

Joe

Bruce Wilson replied:
Quote
Mike and Joe,

The wheelspin "craters" I found in my search for the Bridgton Junction. I remember parking along the highway at a scenic overlook by the power plant. I went down the steep embankment and hiked all along the right of way. Somewhere near the top of the grade are the wheel spin marks.

I'll be going back out there again at some point and will endeavor to get better directions for you. I found these fairly easy, and for me (not being able to find the junction) they must have been easy to spot...

I've hiked much of the Crawford Notch trackage back in the 1980's, and never saw rail with slippage marks on the head like this. These are from a diesel and maybe during the period of the employee strike just before Springfield Terminal. An east bound to Portland just couldn't pull the hill and slowly ground her wheels.

Joe Fox replied:
Quote
Ok. Thanks for the info Bruce. Talk to you later.

Joe

Mike Fox replied:
Quote
Thanks Bruce.
I might go get a shot of them before snow flies. I once saw a rail about 2 feet long in a Model Railroad shop in Georgia that had a wheel mark in the head. Worn almost through the head. Came from a yard, possibly Macon, Georgia, where some hot head engineer thought he could pull everything he could couple to. And Just sat there and ground away. Then I think they got rid of him. That is the story, or as close as I can remember, that I got from the shop owner. Have never seen one since.
Mike

James Patten replied:
Quote
I'll point out a couple of spots at the WW&F where I've spun my wheels on the 52.  Only in winter when trying to plow.

Mike Fox replied:
Quote
I won't tell Dana
Mike

Mike Fox replied:
Quote
James,
Do they look like this. This is fairly significant I think. I suppose I should put a little info. Bruce told me about these. They are about 1 mile south of the Junction. By the Hydro plant. Looks like someone had trouble trying to climb a little grade. I imagine there must have been a 10mph restriction at the time and done after the line closed in 1983. Not much has traveled over them.



Mike

Mike Fox replied:
Quote
I'll title this one "DANA WAS HERE"

Mike Fox replied:
Quote
Here are a few more of Bridgton Junction. The top one is one of the supports for the coalshed. Still amazingly sound. Another shot of this can be seen in my earlier picture with the coal on a stump. Above the coal and to the left.


This is the turntable pit with the mainline in the background. Both pics.




More to come.
Mike

Steve Zuppa replied:
Quote
Mike,
Really nice photos.Dana and I walked a lot of the ROW in November about 5-6 years ago, armed with "Busted and Still Running".We, too, were amazed at just how much is still around.
Merry Christmas.
Steve
_________________
"Keep to the code!"
Capt. Jack Sparrow

Mike Fox replied:
Quote
Here are a couple more photos. In the first photo, I'm standing approximately on the switch to the turntable/enginehouse looking at the turntable. It can't be seen but it is just through those trees.



In this second photo, I'm standing where I think the yard started. In the back of the little pines to the right were the remains of the coalshed. This is where #8 sat until it was moved to Edaville. The turntable pit is to my right. Looking south/south west. And you can see how the recent cutting has opened this up a bit.
Mike


Stephen Hussar replied:
Quote
Very cool. Great pictures, Mike! Has there ever been any effort to rebuild any of this? Seems like a natural.
_________________
*                *                    *                   *
"Give me enough Swedes and whiskey and I'll build a railroad to Hell."
- James J. Hill

Mike Fox replied:
Quote
Not yet. I believe it is all in private hands now and a lot of the right of way is either camp roads or recreation trails.
Mike

Bruce Wilson replied:
Quote
Mike,

I visited the Junction today and am grateful for the photos you have posted. They help explain the remains and provide orientation.

What can you tell me about the automobile parts in the yard (old railbus?) and the row of cut granite blocks that appear to have been moved from an abutment and piled alongside the grade.

Thanks,
Bruce

Mike Fox replied:
Quote
Bruce,
My reference has been Two Feet to the lakes. I have other books to refer to but that seems to have the most overall information. In that book, page 208 has a photo that was taken after abandonment. the Maine Central was rebuilding their bridge over the Saco River (see page 206). I think the stones came from there. I took pictures of them while I was there. Also the same photo on page 206 shows a good shot of the coalshed. At the base of the wall you can see the posts that held the wall up.
As far as the metal parts, they might be the remains of railbus #2. Glenn Christensen is the one that pointed those to me. Where the parts are, according to old hand drawn maps, there was once a turntable there for the MEC. I have yet to see a picture of that anywhere so I don't know how true it is.
And did you notice the remains of the old telephone poles up where the station used to sit? I have compared their location with photos in the book and have real rough idea where the station was.
Mike

Bruce Wilson replied:
Quote
Mike,
I have been pouring over my Bridgton books, photos, etc. Unfortunately I don't have this material with me and I didn't have a chance to grab the photos before going to the Junction yesterday. Your photos and information has been real helpful in the meantime.

I like your theory on where the granite blocks came from and I'll look for coal shed photos when I get a chance to pull my books out.

I didn't see a frame under the remains of the automobile, nothing that would indicate rail usage. I do recall reading that a railbus still existed on the site. I wonder why it was left behind? Some of the parts are quite sound. One of the doors shows collision damage. Maybe the hulk was shoved by an excavator or log loader to move it and damaged in the process many years ago.

Perhaps one of the old-time narrow gage guys might have written something about the old car in an article, such as "Narrow Gauge Junction" that Richard Andrews wrote (back in the 50's) for Railroad Model Craftsman magazine. Sure will be interesting to try to find more on this.

Mike Fox replied:
Quote
Bruce,
I also was wondering about the absence of a frame. Could have been a parts source for the other railbus. It sure would be interesting to find that out.
Mike

Glenn Christensen replied:
Quote
Hi Guys,

To the best of my knowledge, the "old car" is indeed the remains of old railbus #2.  About 30 years ago I visited it when it was still pretty identifiable.  The doors were steel clad, but wood framed.  I still have one of the old hinges.  One of the doors was later rescued by a local resident and presented to the Bridgton Historical Society.  I assumed at the time and still believe that the undercarriage was removed and cut up by the scrappers.  The rest left in situ because it was just sheet metal over a wood frame and not worth the trouble to recover.

I know Bob Outland showed me the remains of the pipe that was used at the Junction to offload the contents of standard gauge tankcars.  It actually ran under one of the dual gauge sidings, which was set at a higher elevation than an adjacent track.  At this point, the bottom of the standard gauge tank was higher than the fill line on the narrow gauge car.  Drain pipes roughly the diameter of a fire hose, could be found in the bottom center of tank cars in those days.  The last I saw, the n.g. tanks still have them.  The n.g. tank cars were positioned on the lower track alongside.  The valves were opened and gravity did the rest.

Oh, to clear up one issue.  The standard gauge turntable was shown in a map that appeared in "Busted and Still Running".  That is the only place I've ever seen it.  I was never able to find any signs of it on the ground at the site, so my belief is the table was never actually built.

I recall on a trip to the Junction many years ago, the turned awning roof supports from the depot were still at the site.  These can be seen in photos showing the narrow gauge side of the station.  The original bright red paint was still in evidence at that time.

Best Regards,
Glenn

Dana Deering replied:
Quote
So Mike,

You found my pile of coal, I see.  Linda and I went to Hiram in October and climbed Mount Cutler.  When we came down we decided to hike the MEC south to Bridgton Junction and we poked around a bit in the yard.  I found the remains of the railbus, the turntable pit, engine house foundation, etc.  The little bit of clearing that was done there did help with perspective.  The granite slabs that Bruce mentions were left over from the MEC's bridge replacement project that took place rith around the time the B&SR was abandoned.  Steve Z. and I went in there once and you could see that those blocks have sat right in the same place since the day they dropped them there.  We need to organize a filed trip so we can pool our tidbits of knowledge.  I think it would be a lot of fun.
I have never seen any evidence of a standard gauge turntable at the junction.  There are remains of one at Sebago Lake Station.  Unfortunately the Portland Water District has fenced off much of that area so you can't get in to poke around.
I would suspect that the wheel burns in the rail were caused by a very low speed restriction on that section (the line was very bad in the Baldwin area) and a heavy train, maybe one of those ballast trains, who knows.

Dana

Mike Fox replied:
Quote
Good news. NE Rail has Put the Bridgton & Saco River on their site. I'm adding photos as quick as I can. I would love to see others.
Mike

Stephen Hussar replied:
Quote
Quote
We need to organize a field trip so we can pool our tidbits of knowledge.  I think it would be a lot of fun. Dana
Me too! Is there any room in the schedule for an annual "field trip" day, or could it be scheduled the day after spring work weekend?
_________________
*                *                    *                   *
"Give me enough Swedes and whiskey and I'll build a railroad to Hell."
- James J. Hill

Bill Sample replied:
Quote
Thanks for posting all those photos, Mike.  I've done some informal exploring of the line but never got to hoof it around the Junction.  If a field trip is ever planned it would be worth a drive from Connecticut for me as I'm sure I could learn a lot from "the local experts."  Judging from the photos I imagine any exploration would have to be done during the non-foliage season.
Although the B&SR/B&H easily gave us the greatest amount of preserved equipment from the "Maine Five," it sure lost out as far as remaining physical plant goes.  Are there any intact buildings outside of a shed? Only the Kennebec Central seems to have faired worse.
Another thing I have thought about was how there was a push by Edgar Mead and a few others to keep the line going as a tourist railroad right at the end in 1940-41.  Had the town of Bridgton supported this maybe it could have happened - then the B&H could have become the world's first "preserved railway"- a title now rightfully claimed by the Talyllyn in Wales.  And had that happened, what would the Maine 2 Foot preservation scene be like today?

Mike Fox replied:
Quote
The only "structure" I have found is the remains of the coal trestle in Bridgton. And that is fading too. Be sure to go to http://photos.nerail.org/show/?byrail:1:Bridgton_&_Saco_River
to see more photos. As of this moment, I still have a dozen or so more pics to put on but haven't got them ready yet. Maybe by the weekend. And that is all south end pictures. I haven't been north of Barker pond with my camera yet.
Mike

James Patten replied:
Quote
I do wonder at times if the B&H had made it to WWII if the USRA would have forced the B&H to stay open, just in case or for shipping of goods.  Once the war ended it might have been at just the right time for the tourists to start coming in and making it really popular.

Wayne Laepple replied:
Quote
There was no USRA during World War II, James. The USRA was formed after the US entered World War I to force the railroads to cooperate with the government, though its efforts are recognized for the most part to have been a failure.

The federal government actually hastened the abandonment of some railroads during World War II when rail and equipment was needed for other locations. Here in Pennsylvania, the Susquehanna & New York RR lost out on a stay of execution because the government wanted its rail for use at an arsenal under construction nearby. And let's not forget the military's confiscation of locomotives from the Denver & Rio Grande narrow gauge (K-27 2-8-2's) and Colorado & Southern for use on the White Pass & Yukon.

Whether the gas and tire shortages would have helped the B&SR is questionable. Don't forget what happened to the Monson in the middle of the war.

Dana Deering replied:
Quote
Bill and All,

My grandfather told me that one of his friends lived (and still lives) in the old Harrison Station.  The Harrison Branch is the only section of the B&SR that I haven't explored much but if we take our field trip we'll have to check out this rumor.  If it's true then it would be the only station left standing that I know of.  North Bridgton station was torn down a few years ago, I think.  Twin Lakes disappeared back in the 80's as did what was left of the West Sebago Station.
If you check out Mike's thread about the Hancock Pond Tank you will see pictures of the tank house converted into a camp.  We are also beginning to wonder about another structure that was north of the water tank that may have had some railroad use at one time.
But you are right, not much survived, which is a shame.  Thankfully the roadbed is still largely intact.

Dana

Mike Fox replied:
Quote
Dana,
Finally found a reference to the derrick car. It was small and only cost $185 in 1890-91. I don't know how accurate the info is in TFTTL because it says in the same paragraph the there is an arch at the head of Barker Pond. And one thing I was wondering, you mentioned Back Nippin in another thread. Doesn't a snowmobile trail go that way. I think I remember a sign down there.
Mike

Dana Deering replied:
Quote
Mike,

Yes, there is a snowmobile trail that goes through Back Nippin'.  It follows the old Back Nippin' Road and comes out on Route 107 at one end and at the B&SR roadbed at "Chessey's" on the other.

Dana

614
Archives (Museum) / Albion video
« on: December 13, 2008, 03:53:58 AM »
MODERATORS NOTE:
Albion video has been converted from the pre-July 2008 WW&F Discussion Forum.
Some formatting may have been removed or modified from the original postings that appear quoted in this topic.
Information contained within this post may be superseded by more recent postings and conversations.

Stephen Hussar wrote:
Quote
All, a short video clip from this year's Albion Day work session has been edited and uploaded to http://www.railwayvideo.org

Joe Fox replied:
Quote
Nice video Steve. I am glad to be albe to see what went on at Albion, since I wasn't able to go. Do they plan on running a tourist operation up there, like what we do down at the museum?

Joe

Ira Schreiber replied:
Quote
Very nice video. It makes me homesick for Maine.
ira

Dave Buczkowski replied:
Quote
Steve;
Nice video. It was the first thing I opened this morning. I'm sure Carl will enjoy seeing and hearing his comment about recording!
Joe;
It would be great to run an historical (not tourist) operation some day. There appears to be between a quarter and a half mile of right of way which could be used if things were to fall right. What's needed is volunteers as Carl, Phil and Bruce can't do it all themselves. I have some ideas I will circulate when I have the time to get them all out.
Dave

Steve Smith replied:
Quote
Thanks for the video, Steve. I loved that last scene with Carl!

Small Steve

James Patten replied:
Quote
Steve, when I saw the steer I was expecting you to dub in Carl's voice at that point asking about the camera being on.  However it works as is!

Stewart Rhine replied:
Quote
Steve,  Good video, it shows what I missed.  Thanks for posting it.  I like James' comment - wonder what Carl would think of his voice coming from the steer...

Next year we should take the handcar up.  You can show the crew putting a shine on the rails.

Stephen Hussar replied:
Quote
James, it was either "moo" or "bull" 
_________________
*                *                    *                   *
"Give me enough Swedes and whiskey and I'll build a railroad to Hell."
- James J. Hill

Joe Fox replied:
Quote
I think the hand car is to lite to shine the rails.

Joe

Steve Zuppa replied:
Quote
Not if you go back and forth 487 times.
Steve
_________________
"Keep to the code!"
Capt. Jack Sparrow

Glenn Christensen replied:
Quote
Hey Steve,

LOVED THE VIDEO!!!

Two questions:
1) Did you get a signed release from the bull?

2) Who's gonna tell Carl he really wasn't edited out?

Grins and Best Regards,
Glenn

Joe Fox replied:
Quote
Steve Zuppa,

Only you would have the strength, and ambition to pump that hand car back and forth 487 times. I would only want to do it, at most, 10 times, since the track isn't very long, and even if I did do it that many, I would lose count after the first 2, because that is as high as I can count. Ha Ha Ha. Steve Hussar, Are you going to be at the museum this weekend, to make a video of the Victorian Christmas like you did last year? I thought that last years Victorian Christmas video was great.

Joe

Stephen Hussar replied:
Quote
Thanks all -- glad you liked it! 
_________________
*                *                    *                   *
"Give me enough Swedes and whiskey and I'll build a railroad to Hell."
- James J. Hill

Brian Murphy replied:
Quote
Steve you should have gotten some audio of carl asking if anybody needs a breaker bar. and dubs it over the video every 30 seconds. haha

615
Archives (Museum) / Spring Work Weekend Dates
« on: December 13, 2008, 03:51:45 AM »
MODERATORS NOTE:
Spring Work Weekend Dates has been converted from the pre-July 2008 WW&F Discussion Forum.
Some formatting may have been removed or modified from the original postings that appear quoted in this topic.
Information contained within this post may be superseded by more recent postings and conversations.

Dana Deering wrote:
Quote
Hi All,

Please mark your calendars for the Spring Work Weekend, which will be April 27 - 29.  The plan for the weekend is pretty straightforward:  We will start at Albee's crossing and work south ballasting, tamping, etc. to get as much of that section in service as possible.  If we get it done with time to spare we will go north of Albee's and keep at it.

Dana

Mike Fox replied:
Quote
Thanks Dana. Something to look forward to for next year now. Putting it on my calendar right now.
Mike

Joe Fox replied:
Quote
Dana,

I look foward to tamping and ballasting this spring.

Joe

ETSRRCo replied:
Quote
I'll be there and I'll bring friends!!
_________________
Eric Bolton
East Tigard & Southern Railroad Co 1889-1958

Joe Fox replied:
Quote
That's great. How many friends? I have been trying to get some of my railcamp buddies to come up and help us lay track down, but so far nobody has really tried to come up and help the museum out. I have put several posts on the RailCamp chatting place website about the museum, and how they could help, but only one of them has been up to visit.

Joe

Jon Dandridge replied:
Quote
My family and I are planning to be there at least for Saturday.

Jon

Dave Buczkowski replied:
Quote
Dana;
It's already on my calendar (though not on an official WW&F one) and I've bumped up the weight on my bench presses so I won't embarrass myself.
Dave

Ira Schreiber replied:
Quote
Well, it is only 30 days away for the April track blitz.
Who, of the non-semi-locals is planning to be there?
I guess I mean over 250 miles away.

I just got my flights and my wife is actually coming with me.

She had to be assured that we:
a. Did not sleep in 309
b. Did not eat over a tie fire
c. Did not use a little green house
d. did not bathe in Humason Brook

Having done all this, we are staying in Edgecome for a week and doing a little of the sights.
I look forward to seeing all of you.
Ira & Corrine Schreiber

Mike Fox replied:
Quote
Won't be long and we'll be hearing that sound of shovels in ballast and the tampers running. The sounds of progress and teamwork will again be in the air.
Mike

Ira Schreiber replied:
Quote
So get out the Ben-gay, the hot packs, the ice packs and fill the hot tub spa. Work weekend is approaching.
Has anyone requested for the weather to be cooperative? What about the spring "bugs"?
Watch out track, here we come......

Dana Deering replied:
Quote
Remember the year we shovelled snow of the ROW so we could lay track just north of CockEye Curve?  Well, I am looking out the window and getting some deja vu vibes...

Dave Buczkowski replied:
Quote
Dana;
I believe our union contract calls for a 10% pay differential for shoveling snow. You need to think postive vibes-partly sunny in the mid 50's is what we want.
Dave

Mike Fox replied:
Quote
I'm guessing the way the weather keeps going, bugs will not be a problem this year. Luckily, the frost went out of the top part of the ground before we got the last round of snow. I haven't checked here yet to see how far down the frost is or how far it goes. I'd have to shovel through the snow first where I plan on digging this year.
Mike

Josh Botting replied:
Quote
I hope the frost comes out of the ground before the work weekend. That could be very messy else.  My dentist was saying today that he was born in a snow storm, in May....... Welcome to Maine!

Bill Reidy replied:
Quote
My first visit to the museum was the 2001 spring work weekend.  And the first thing I did at the museum was shovel snow off the right-of-way at cockeye curve.

Isn't that why the weekend got moved to the end of the month?   

Bill

Wayne Laepple replied:
Quote
What I'm wondering is whether the roads will have firmed up enough for the trucks to bring stone. It's only two weeks hence.

Stewart Rhine replied:
Quote
Dana and Bill,  You guys are right on the money.  We shoveled snow off the grade from the North end of Cockeye Curve up towards the crossing at Sheepscot Mills (formerly Hall's).  Then it rained a little, this was in the Spring of 2001.  I have a bunch of photos of us placing ties and carrying rail through deep mud.  We had to put wooden planks along side the ties because we were sinking down so far into the mud while carrying rail.  Alex Hernandez got stuck so bad that his foot came out of his boot!  That place was a real mud hole - even before we cleared it.  I walked to the trestle in April, 1998 and had to go up the hill to get around the mud on the grade.

Mike Fox replied:
Quote
Unless the sun comes out and stays out, the stone might not be able to be delivered. I know the roads around here will still be posted in a couple of weeks unless some drastic drying goes on. I did not remember seeing a road posted sign anywhere near the museum the way I travel.
Mike

Ira Schreiber replied:
Quote
After many balmy days in the 60's, we are predicted to get 12" of snow in the next two days.
Maine has nothing on Colorado except a much longer winter.
Ira

Dave Buczkowski replied:
Quote
I too remember Mud Weekend. The mud never came off my workboots. But what fun would it be if it was 65 and suny all the time.
Ira, I remember all the weather bragging you were doing a few weeks ago. The Narrow Gauge Gods have repaid you for your hubris.
Dave

James Patten replied:
Quote
Cross Road has been posted for a couple of weeks at least.  However usually the road commissioner works with us to get us our stone.  If it's cold enough early in the morning he may lift it temporarily so that the trucks can get through.

However none of this would be a problem if we were storing stone at Alna Center.

Joe Fox replied:
Quote
So I am guessing that is the major reason why you guys wan't the stone moved up to Alna Center. I have been told it is also to shorten the travel of the work trains. Talk to you guys later.

Joe

Ira Schreiber replied:
Quote
Dave,
I appeased the weather gods. We were forcast for up to 12" of snow. Woke up this morning and NADA, zip, nothing. Just started to spit snow about 11 a.m. The great forecaster says now maybe 1".
Tomorrow is predicted 60 and Sunday 65. That is Colorado weather at its finest.......

Stewart Rhine replied:
Quote
Joe,  The top three reasons for moving stone storage at AC are -
(1) To keep the area clear in front of the Sheepscot carshop.
(2) To shorten the travel time for delivering stone to the work zone/EOT.
(3) Trucks can come in off of 218 and not have to travel on the posted Alna town roads.

James Patten replied:
Quote
As Stewart said, a major reason is to keep the area of of the carshop cleared.  However, we get the added benefit of being able to keep some extra stone on hand for maintenance purposes, rather than being forced to get it out of the way ASAP.

Once the stone and coal storage is moved elsewhere, we can really turn attention to making the front of the shop area a nice looking place.

Mike Fox replied:
Quote
Get those shovels ready. Rumor has it that we are going to get the storm of the century Sunday night into Monday. 1 to 2 feet. If this keeps up, we will have to shovel the snow out of the way to put down the ballast.  Hopefully they are wrong and we only get 1 to 2 inches. I had started raking my lawn 2 weeks ago but it is now under about 1 foot of snow.
Mike

Joe Fox replied:
Quote
If this keeps up, we will be shoveling snow instead of ballast come the spring work weekend. Talk to you guys later.

Joe

Steve Smith replied:
Quote
Mike and Joe,

Weather Underground website is forecasting that the precip beginning Sunday will be mostly rain in Wiscasset. That ought to wash away some snow, but just make Averill Rd all the muddier I suppose.

Steve

Mike Fox replied:
Quote
I hope they are right. I, for one, have finally tired of the snow and hope that what I heard was exaggerated.
Mike

Joe Fox replied:
Quote
That, and the railroad grade. What fun that will be. I have seen some pictures of a railroad that was washed away from a river flooding. It washed away most of the railroad grade, and it cost them over a million dollars to rebuild the railroad grade. Hopefully we don't have to do anything like that, and hopefully, the railroad grade will continue to stay where it is, and not wash away, like it has just North of the Mountain. Talk to you guys later.

Joe

Stewart Rhine replied:
Quote
Two more feet of snow!!?!  If this keeps up we'll be shoveling snow at the picnic 

Mike Fox replied:
Quote
They have backed it down a bit now. 18 inches to 2 feet in the mountains. 4-10 inches on the coast with rain mixing in. I cleaned a few ditches yesterday of some debris at Alna Center and dirt at Jane's Way (formerly Stockford's) to keep the water flowing.
Mike

Stephen Hussar replied:
Quote
We didn't take any pictures, but we took the handcar for a spin yesterday! It was gorgeous out! However much snow falls, it will be gone in a day or two
_________________
*                *                    *                   *
"Give me enough Swedes and whiskey and I'll build a railroad to Hell."
- James J. Hill

Ira Schreiber replied:
Quote
Out at The Colorado Live Steamers site, yesterday, we laid, ballasted and tamped 110' feet of track.
The weather was clear and 68 degrees.
Such is our weather after a prediction of up to 12" on Friday and we got nothing.
We'll see you all in ten days.
Ira

Mike Fox replied:
Quote
Remember the fly dope this year! The bugs have started coming out as it has been 70 the last 2 days. Supposed to cool a bit for this weekend but not enough to deter the bugs once they start.
Mike

Wayne Laepple replied:
Quote
Prior to heading north on Thursday morning, I've got two questions for those of you already there:
1.) How muddy are things around the railroad?
2.) Is stone able to be delievered to Sheepscot?

Joe Fox replied:
Quote
Things aren't to bad at the moment, but a damper is coming on Friday, that may screw up the tamping operations more. That's right, we got more rain coming for Friday. 
_________________
“We are extremely proud of our collection of historical railroad equipment, which is the largest of any U. S. railroad, especially our steam locomotives.”
-Steve Lee-

Joe

Allan Fisher replied:
Quote
Road to Sheepscot has not been posted for at least a week now - so stone delivery will be no problem. With temperatures this week at almost 70, we are hoping that mud condiitons will be manageable.

James Patten replied:
Quote
Right now it sounds like fire conditions are very unfavorable for external combustion engines.  That's right, even with all the rain and flooding we've had the top layer of ground is quite dry.  The showers we'll get should make the dryness better.

Mike Fox replied:
Quote
They are now talking of showers Friday through Monday. Should help things out just the same. I will have the firecar all ready to go, just in case. I had it running a few weeks ago. Going to pick up a couple of spark plugs and a different type of air filter.
Mike

Dana Deering replied:
Quote
So far it looks like showers off and on for Fri and Sat with clearer weather in Sun.  Doesn't look like a washout at all.

Paul C. replied:
Quote
I guess I'll check my rain gear in preperation for this weekend. How will the rain effect the "bug" situation? See you on Friday! Paul C.

Joe Fox replied:
Quote
Hopefully the rain won't effect the bug sittuation any. Will we still do track work all day, if we get the rain showers, and will the steam engine be running still? Talk to you guys later.
_________________
“We are extremely proud of our collection of historical railroad equipment, which is the largest of any U. S. railroad, especially our steam locomotives.”
-Steve Lee-

Joe

Mike Fox replied:
Quote
No bugs yet but they could pop out at any minute. The standing water is full of eggs.
Mike

Bill Sample replied:
Quote
Mike, do you or any other Maine full or part timers have any recommendations for effective fly dope for us occasional visitors?

James Patten replied:
Quote
Quote
Mike, do you or any other Maine full or part timers have any recommendations for effective fly dope for us occasional visitors?

Thick skin.

Ira Schreiber replied:
Quote
I have found Deep Woods Off to be very effective.
For the economy minded, an 18 0z. ball pein hammer is a very effective deterrent.
Ira Schreiber

MikeW replied:
Quote
The best thing I know is to keep moving and busy.

Mike Fox replied:
Quote
Ira, I thought the hammer was for the complaint department. 

As of today, I worked outside all day and still no bugs
I don't think tomorrow will bring many more out so the bugs should be at a minimum this year.
As for bug repellent, as Ira has said, Deep Woods OFF! in a spray can seems to work well. Or if you don't mind the smell, Skin so soft by Avon works too.
Mike

Ira Schreiber replied:
Quote
The hammer is for the complaint department.
You complain about the bugs, then hit them with the hammer.

Dave Buczkowski replied:
Quote
Fred has something he uses in a small bottle that is made locally. The bugs hover about an inch from your skin but don't bite. It's some guy's name. Sorry I don't remember. I've seen it at the Alna General Store. Mike is right - keep moving. As long as you are moving they don't bother you. I think Dana releases them in the morning so the track crew keeps working. The thick skin is so Stevie Two-Ties' barbs roll off your skin......

Ira Schreiber replied:
Quote
Sounds like boiled MOXIE
Ira

Paul C. replied:
Quote
OK - I'm packing my Deep Woods Off in pump bottle (environment friendly) AND a Hammer!

Wayne Laepple replied:
Quote
I dunno, guys, from what I can see of the weather forecast, we're all going to be encased in vinyl this weekend. Do  the bugs wear rainsuits in Maine?

Ira Schreiber replied:
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The bugs do not wear rainsuits  and they are barefoot as it is very hard to shoo them.

Josh Botting replied:
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It would be the ticks which I am concerned about.  After last weekend's warmth, I found the first one yesterday, and it was a deer tick.

Dana Deering replied:
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The only flies I release are the ones that bite track workers in the butt...the others are locally grown.

Ok. and for Steve H. especially, I am going to be LATE getting to Sheepscot on Friday because my grandson decided not to come into the world earlier than expected despite his efforts do to so a couple of months ago.  My step daughter is having a c-section at 930 on Fri morning and I will be at the hospital with her.  I will get there as soon as I can.  If the rain is coming down in buckets I have given Rick and the other Section Foreman the discretion to call off outside work if it's bad.  Saturday is supposed to be better.  See you this weekend.

Dana

Joe Fox replied:
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Dana,

Good luck to you and your sister in law at the hospital tomorrow. Look foward to tamping, and much more on Saturday. See you on saturday.

Joe

Mike Fox replied:
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According to the latest weather report, suppose to let up as the day goes on. So if we can make it until lunch, things should improve.
Mike

Paul C. replied:
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Just looked on Weather Channel site and it has showers Friday morning becoming steady rain as the day goes on but says 1/2 inch total. Also shows 30% chance of showers on Saturday and 40% chance of showers on Sunday. So I guess Rain Gear will be the order of the day. CU Fri about noon. Paul C.
PS - I noted that post times are Eastern Std vice Eastern Daylight savings as it is 6PM Thurs as I type this

Josh Botting replied:
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My memory has recently been Jogged....
Last weekend on my journey to the great not so white north, at about the S. end of China Lake, I was listening to Hot & Cold on the radio, good program, if you are far enough north to get it......   Anyway, I digress, Jim Dill, UMaine antimoligist (Bug Guy), was on speaking about bugs and such, he was asked what bug sprays he recomended and used.  His report was to use any of the ones with DEET in them.  He reported that the herbal types work about as well.  He offers the students who work with him either one.  Most of them start with the herbal ones, but end up using the DEET ones after a few days.  His report was that the DEET lasts much longer than the herbal ones.  Anyway, I believe Jim.

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