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Messages - Robert Hale

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Work and Events / Re: Box Car 67 - Official Work Thread
« on: February 13, 2018, 01:00:30 PM »
If you keep talking about Fred and his use of a chain saw, he's going to start looking for those different type of tree call a homosapien, it has only Four limbs to cut. You might say I'm branching out in a new direction!!!

So you are saying Fred is "a cut above the rest"?

Work and Events / Re: Eames Train Brakes - Official Work Thread
« on: February 08, 2018, 03:01:15 PM »
I'm glued to the forum watching all the friendly bonding going on.  :o

Work and Events / Re: What If? Design Project: 1925-1940 2ft Diesel
« on: February 05, 2018, 07:27:28 PM »
Just as a matter of information, as well as a possible assist in the design of a new internal combustion locomotive, the early General electric steeple-cab electric locomotives were fitted with arch-bar trucks. See photo. This particular locomotive was later outfitted with a diesel engine and generator buy its original owner, the Warwick Railway in Rhode Island, and still later purchased and retrofitted with another larger diesel by the Strasburg Rail Road. Unfortunately, it was too small for their needs and scrapped.

I'll keep doing the research on the diesel electric.

Work and Events / Re: What If? Design Project: 1925-1940 2ft Diesel
« on: February 05, 2018, 01:11:34 PM »

Due to the scaled down size of your proposed engine, I would suggest you look more at a 4BT engine rather than a 6BT.  They are available up to 140HP which is only slightly less than the original engines on a 44 tonner.  There are lots of surplus or re-man engines available for very reasonable prices.  Also I would look at diesel-electric as they would not require transmissions, gearing, etc. They would also be period correct since both GE and I-R were building boxcabs during the 1920's-30s.

The biggest issue I have been running into is finding a suitable generator head to power the electrics. Traction motors and controllers are easy to find, but the generator is the hard part. I'll keep digging unless someone knows of a good DC generator head out there.
4BTs are also a good option but they are pricey to the point of costing more than 6BTs right now.


Edit: Just found a 26KW diesel DC genset. Now to look up if speed controllers can handle variable voltages to operate electric motors.

Edit 2: HOLY COW! Speed controllers are $$$$$$$, motors are about $4000.00 ea, and that is not including all the wire, relays, fuses ect and the genset is not cheap as well. I think this was why I shied away from diesel-electric.

Work and Events / Re: What If? Design Project: 1925-1940 2ft Diesel
« on: February 02, 2018, 11:54:36 AM »
But just to be confusing, the WWI gas-mechanical locos like FR 'Moelwyn' mentioned earlier in the thread really are from the US Baldwin Locomotive Works, not the Australian Baldwin.

I'll try to clarify my position: My plan for #53 & #54 settled on the drive train style of the Baldwin gas-mechanical like the 'Moelwyn' minus the leading non-powered axle and then making a 0-4-0+0-4-0 twin engine center cab engine using Cummins 6BTs with automatic transmissions on both ends. A 100-120 gallon fuel tank and air tanks from a semi-truck. I'm aiming for about 20-25000lbs with a top out of 30000lbs max.


Work and Events / Re: What If? Design Project: 1925-1940 2ft Diesel
« on: February 02, 2018, 12:39:40 AM »
Here are a couple of other Queensland sugar cane locomotives. These are in the 15-20-ton range and about 180 horsepower diesel hydraulics.
This thing weighs in at 40 tons.

Work and Events / Re: What If? Design Project: 1925-1940 2ft Diesel
« on: February 01, 2018, 07:09:43 PM »
South African GE U8: way too heavy, way too wide. I was suggesting something along the lines of the attached photo.
I just read some info on the exact loco last month. It is diesel-hydraulic with a Detroit 12V92 engine and tips the scales at about 40 tons (I need to double check that number).

Work and Events / Re: What If? Design Project: 1925-1940 2ft Diesel
« on: February 01, 2018, 06:29:07 PM »
While the Baldwin trench locomotives are cool in their own right, they would not solve the problem at the WW&F. What is needed is a locomotive with both power and speed, to allow it to be used to rescue a train and bring it home. It might be worthwhile to take a look at some version of the diesel locomotives manufactured in Australia for use on the still-extensive sugar cane network in Queensland. Using already-proven and functional mechanical designs, the sheet metal surrounding it could be customized to look like a 1930's gasoline or diesel unit.

If the museum needs such a locomotive then the South African GE U8 locomotives would fit the bill. Diesel electric with CAT 3208 power plants.
I'll do my best to present the my best design using modern power train components from the light/medium duty trucks of the day with a period correct design for the final drive (with modern parts) and keeping with the 1920-30s styling. The units would be scratch-built using laser/water CNC cut plate, rectangle tube frames, standard wiring, pneumatic brakes and controls, cab heater with a full enclosed cab.


Work and Events / Re: What If? Design Project: 1925-1940 2ft Diesel
« on: January 31, 2018, 03:43:34 PM »
[Moderator's Note]
I re-titled this thread to reflect the topic at hand. I also moved it into the Museum discussion area, rather than the section reserved for non museum-specific topics.

That said,
I like the idea. The photos of the WWI era Baldwin the design is based upon show a really neat looking locomotive. Jason would be sure to love it - it is a Baldwin after all!

Yes, that is why I chose that set-up. Simple, period correct. Also thanks for merging the topics. Now that I have a clearer picture moving forward in my life (VA appointments done) this is giving me motivation to get the drawings done.


Work and Events / Re: Personal goals for 2017
« on: January 31, 2018, 02:35:02 PM »

If you are thinking of wheel centers with spokes, I made patterns for two sizes which are currently stored at the railroad.  Depending on the thickness of the tire or how much is machined off the center, you could go from a 18" wheel (like on the Model T railcar) to a 20" wheel (like on #11's lead wheel assembly), or even more with thicker tires.  With the larger center you could start with about a 31" wheel or larger depending again on the thickness of the tire.  I don't know if you are thinking this large a wheel, but it is remotely possible.  At this point I wouldn't offer making a mid size pattern because of the many pattern projects I have to complete and based on #11's time line, this project would be ten years away before it was physical consummated.

If you are thinking side rods and cranks with the larger wheel center, the patterns for the cranks are also made and in storage.

I have seen mine locomotives where the traction motor was mounted longitudinally between the axles with worn (sp?) gears.  You could possibly use truck differentials with some of the gears removed for this.


The gearbox design will operate in the same fashion as an outboard motor lower end; Forward/reverse/neutral. The gears will come from a Dana 80, two ring gears and one pinion 6:1 ratio. The outboard gears going to the lower shaft driving the side rods will be from the 2.5 ton Rockwell axle bull gear (4 per box). All fitted with tapered roller bearings. Short driveshaft to the transmission. If patterns are already made for counter weights and wheel centers, that does save allot of time. I will be emailing someone that could machine the gear box shafts and axles and contribute to their youtube channel content.
I'm trying to find the simplest solution to drive the wheels, and thus far this is the simplest I could come up with. It keeps the axles simple, the truck frames simple, the gearbox is accessible for oil changes, the transmission/engine pans are accessible for maintenance. It will also include two cast iron air compressors (one per engine) for the shifting/braking system. As far as vacuum brakes, I would need someone's help with that since I am not familiar with them.


Edit: Thanks for merging the topics.

Work and Events / Re: What If? Design Project: 1925-1940 2ft Diesel
« on: January 31, 2018, 01:09:23 PM »
What are you using for wheels?

Machined centers with tyres. Not sure of the size yet. Tapered roller bearings on the axles.


Work and Events / Re: What If? Design Project: 1925-1940 2ft Diesel
« on: January 31, 2018, 12:41:38 PM »
Yes, I hope to have drawings sometime soon. Here is a link for some good photos of the Baldwin gas-mechanical I am basing the truck design off of. My idea is a blend of this locomotive and a Garrett steam locomotive. Everything that powers the unit except for the gearboxes, rods, wheels, counter weights, truck frames and brake rigging will be on the frame. That means cab, hoods, engines/transmissions, cooling systems, fuel tank(s), air tanks, batteries ect.
The only differences I plan between #53 and #54 is the engines. #53 will have the 6BT (12 valve with the non-computer fuel control) with single exhaust (turbo) and #54 will have the 6B with 6 individual stacks (non-turbo). I am trying to find out about the 45RLE transmissions if they have an aftermarket manual valve body for shifting to delete the computer and delete the reverse gear (reversing will be done in the truck gearboxes). Also, they do make larger capacity pans and the trans coolers will most likely triple the transmission fluid capacity.
I started to look at frame materials in the area of 7"x3" box 3/8" thick, 7/8" plate for frame gussets, and 1 3/4" plate for the truck frames. Handrails would be 7/8" rod stock. More to come.


Work and Events / Re: What If? Design Project: 1925-1940 2ft Diesel
« on: January 30, 2018, 05:22:07 PM »

Why don't you study what the Mount Washington Cog Railway used to make their diesel-hydraulic locomotives?  I believe they used a standard power unit with hydraulic motors.  I know it was unsuccessful on the Southern Pacific and Rio Grande for various reasons, but on a small road like the WW&F it may be the simplest way to go.  I am not a mechanic, so this is just a "from the hip" suggestion.

As far as the aesthetics of the locomotive, make it look good . Design it with AAR type trucks with drop equalizers like passenger car trucks similar to  those used on road switchers.  The Durango & Silverton made a beautiful self propelled car and put it on what I feel was a very cobbled looking front truck made from an industrial locomotive.  It looked terrible.  Home made locomotives tend to look cobbled up.  Try to avoid that.


I thought of that, but there are allot of issues with Diesel-hydraulic (pump/lines/motors/cooling/costs) and it would not be a period correct design. Using a mechanical design from the period of the early 1900's with a minor modification (using an automatic transmission/diesel engine) you could have a loco with good power and speed.
My goals are: ease of maintenance. That means common filters, belts, parts, spares, controls (pneumatic) with a minimum amount of custom parts (machined/cast/fabbed). I think the final weight might be in the 20-24k range. I thought it could be a viable solution for a robust locomotive for the RR for when steam is not running and save some wear/tear on #52, but look and feel period correct for the size of the line. More to follow.


Work and Events / Re: What If? Design Project: 1925-1940 2ft Diesel
« on: January 30, 2018, 05:04:32 PM »
I would suggest looking at a center-cab design with two engines.  Each one connected directly to its end truck.  The one advantage is if you have a road failure of an engine, you have the remaining one to get you home.  Think of a scaled down GE 44 tonner.
That is the idea. It would be a period correct (except for the power plant) "kitbashed" locomotive using surplus chassis from WWI, in theory (like a what if). Outside some custom shafts/gearboxes everything will be sourced from the light/medium truck industry to keep costs down and have a good supply of spares.
I'm going to hit this hard this year, getting my CAD program up and running since most of my VA stuff has closed out now. I have to call some vendors and contact some youtubers to get input into the gearboxes.


Work and Events / Re: What If? Design Project: 1925-1940 2ft Diesel
« on: January 29, 2018, 03:40:52 PM »
Update: #54 & #55
I have decided on the gearbox/drive train layout, it will be similar to the Baldwin 600cm trench locomotive 0-4-0 gas-mechanical from WWI, just with it being double ended. Still researching off the shelf gears/bearings to minimize costs. Also developing the centralized control stand for bi-directional use. Will be diesel powered with common power plants. That is all.


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