W.W.&F. Discussion Forum

WW&F Railway Museum Discussion => Museum Discussion => Topic started by: Matthew Gustafson on November 02, 2008, 08:21:10 PM

Title: How Far is the WW&F going to restore the new track?
Post by: Matthew Gustafson on November 02, 2008, 08:21:10 PM
Im a Huge fan of their railroad but i Want to know how far will they go on restoring their new Line?   :)
Title: Re: How Far is the W&WR going to restore the new track?
Post by: Mike Fox on November 02, 2008, 08:40:04 PM
W&WR? I assume you mean the WW&F? The near term goal would be Route 218 in Alna which is a little over a mile away from the current end of track. A little longer term goal is potentially Head Tide and beyond.
Title: Re: How Far is the W&WR going to restore the new track?
Post by: Matthew Gustafson on November 02, 2008, 08:53:10 PM
What about the Route behind The Station and Car Shop beyond the road! Is that route going to be Restored too? :)
Title: Re: How Far is the W&WR going to restore the new track?
Post by: John McNamara on November 02, 2008, 09:30:07 PM
What about the Route behind The Station and Car Shop beyond the road! Is that route going to be Restored too? :)
Extending the route behind the station beyond the road (or crossing 218 on the way to Head Tide) would involve crossing a public road. Doing so would make the WW&F an FRA-regulated railroad. The WWF folks do not fear this and are gradually adopting many of the procedures and paperwork that would be involved. Nevertheless, it is something that it would be nice to postpone as long as possible.
Title: Re: How Far is the W&WR going to restore the new track?
Post by: Matthew Gustafson on November 02, 2008, 09:34:26 PM
Okay Then! But How far is the new New Route Restorating Going to End at where? =)
Title: Re: How Far is the W&WR going to restore the new track?
Post by: Steve Smith on November 02, 2008, 10:31:33 PM
Okay Then! But How far is the new New Route Restorating Going to End at where? =)

Type cross road alna me in google maps, click on satllite and zoom in on the WW&F Sheepscot station & yard. By following the WW&F right of way on the south side of Cross Rd you'll see how far it goes before coming to a dam and pond.

Steve Smith
Title: Re: Purpose of Verney Dam?
Post by: Gary Kraske on February 12, 2019, 02:12:44 AM
Hi,  This may have been covered in the past but, what is the purpose of the dam and is it privately owned or under public perveiw?  What was the purpose if it no longer is relied upon?  I think from my readings that the old ROW goes through the dam and the marsh.  Is that correct?  Just muttering to myself about southward extension from Sheepscot.
Title: Re: How Far is the WW&F going to restore the new track?
Post by: Mike Fox on February 12, 2019, 10:44:48 AM
The dam is not private, I believe, and someone can correct me if I am wrong, that the state fixed the dam up at one point in time. The only way to know for sure is do some research. I think we are several years from deciding what to do there.
Title: Re: How Far is the WW&F going to restore the new track?
Post by: Gary Kraske on February 13, 2019, 01:47:03 AM
Thank you Mike.  I will try to poke around.
Title: Re: How Far is the WW&F going to restore the new track?
Post by: Allan Fisher on February 13, 2019, 05:15:15 PM
I believe it is privately owned and maintained.
Title: Re: How Far is the WW&F going to restore the new track?
Post by: Bill Baskerville on February 13, 2019, 07:00:02 PM
A few years ago I was told that the dam was privately owned and that the owner was agreeable to reducing the height and water level so we could build thru that area.  Be aware that my information comes from a few years ago and it is really up to the BOD to make that decision and to work with the land owners on our plans. 

Right now the projects include actually getting to 218, getting the track in service, completing the station there, extending the car barn, building the engine house, erecting the Alna pavilion, rebuilding several pieces of rolling stock, getting 10 back in service, building 11, building the new passenger car, getting the vacuum breaks working and installed, running trains for our visitors, maintaining our existing track and infrastructure, and probably a dozen other things that I have omitted.  We have lots to do.
Title: Re: How Far is the WW&F going to restore the new track?
Post by: Mike Fox on February 14, 2019, 01:42:20 AM
Bill, that sounds like the same thing I was told. But, the DEP and Army Corps may think otherwise of just lowering the water level. So there may be state involvement there.

A quick google shows it actually has a name. Verney-Leighton Marsh Dam. It is also on Topo maps, which the DEP and Army Corps use as reference.

All this is not insurmountable. We just need to see what can be done and do it.. Just like building the retaining wall or intalling a bridge... It can be done..

Title: Re: How Far is the WW&F going to restore the new track?
Post by: Wayne Laepple on February 14, 2019, 02:20:14 AM
On the single occasion I walked down the right-of-way to the dam, I noticed that the outfall was mostly blocked by debris, which seemed to have raised the water level to some extent or other. Whether this was intentional by beavers or due to lack of maintenance I cannot say.
Title: Re: How Far is the WW&F going to restore the new track?
Post by: Mike the Choochoo Nix on February 14, 2019, 02:22:51 PM
Just a little curiosity. If we were able to build through  Headtide to the section we own just past the station, how much farther past there does the right of way we own extend?
Mike Nix
Title: Re: How Far is the WW&F going to restore the new track?
Post by: Allan Fisher on February 14, 2019, 05:42:46 PM
There is one piece that we don't own before the Head Tide Station location. This is between the road and the station lot. Then we own almost to the Alna town line - but it is not very far past the Head Tide Station location.
We do not own very much of the trackage beyond the Alna line in Whitefield, I think there is about a three mile stretch we do not own. From there we own quite a lot of the rest of the Whitefield trackage.
Title: Re: How Far is the WW&F going to restore the new track?
Post by: Wayne Laepple on February 14, 2019, 06:01:33 PM
From what I can determine, the Alna/Whitefield town line is just north of the curve in the Sheepscot River, perhaps 2,000 feet or so beyond the station. This is the location of the gravel pit that provided gravel for the WW&F track. As mentioned above, beyond that is all privately owned. Realistically, if the WW&F wanted to, it could continue on to the site of the Whitefield bridge, about 3.2 miles beyond the Sheepscot station site. Of course, that would mean securing easements from the abutters. According to Linwood Moody's map, there had been a passing track in that area.
Title: Re: How Far is the WW&F going to restore the new track?
Post by: Bernie Perch on February 14, 2019, 06:33:50 PM
I rarely enter into these "expansion conversations" but I am going to enter my two cents.  When the railroad reaches 218 it will be about three miles long.  For the average tourist, especially with children, that is more than enough of a train ride.  Even though I understand why the railroad is expanding north to escape federal oversight, I always felt it was the wrong direction.  To go north beyond 218 in my mind is a waste.  It would require expensive crossing gates, expensive road crossing (thick boards would not suffice here), and would be limited to the next crossing.  Beyond that would require another major crossing which would require the road to be raised and the fill replaced beyond that.  All this would add another five minutes to the trip (both directions included).  What would the attraction be beyond 218--more trees and a field or two?  If there was a resort or tourist attraction to be reached which would produce more ridership, then I would feel differently.

I have heard stirrings of expansion southward.  There are houses and 218 in the way with all the problems mentioned above with crossings, but to me would be the sensible way to go.  Theoretically, when the railroad reached Wiscasset, with proper parking and promotion, the passenger numbers could greatly expand.  There would be no need to build a trestle or have a yard where the original was located.  Just put the tracks west of the current wide gauge ones.  There would have to be a little filling on the mud flats with its attendant permits, but considering what the railroad has done up to now, it isn't insurmountable. 

 Looking forward to SWW and all the progress since last fall.

Bernie
Title: Re: How Far is the WW&F going to restore the new track?
Post by: Skyler Kimball on February 15, 2019, 01:21:32 AM
Well, if it the railroad goes south, it not only would help with passenger numbers, but would really put the Wiscasset in the WISCASSET Waterville and Farmington Railway. ;D
Title: Re: How Far is the WW&F going to restore the new track?
Post by: Bill Baskerville on February 15, 2019, 02:14:06 AM
... but would really put the Wiscasset in the WISCASSET Waterville and Farmington Railway. ;D
Well, one out of three is a start....
Title: Re: How Far is the WW&F going to restore the new track?
Post by: John Kokas on February 15, 2019, 02:27:08 AM
Bernie has a good point, how much do we gain from Rt. 218 to Head Tide?  Not really that much but a ton of expense.  If the property situation at Head Tide were to change then now it sounds more practical.  Going south solves a couple of operational issues with run-arounds and we own all the way to the Wiscasset town line.  The real driver becomes getting to Wiscasset - especially if the Amtrak Downeaster becomes a reality.
Title: Re: How Far is the WW&F going to restore the new track?
Post by: Bill Baskerville on February 15, 2019, 04:02:43 AM
Of course there is that pesky problem of a few houses built on the ROW and I am sure the school wouldn't like having the tracks put thru their ball field.  But there may be room to the East to sneak around that issue.

I guess perhaps over time a few volunteers will want to move closer to the railroad and buy up the houses and move them to one side or the other.  One can dream can't one?
Title: Re: How Far is the WW&F going to restore the new track?
Post by: Wayne Laepple on February 15, 2019, 03:37:40 PM
While the W&Q does own some of the grade south of Cross Road, it is my understanding there is about 1800 feet in private hands before reaching the Alna/Wiscasset town line. Next is getting across Route 218 -- same issues only more so as south of Head Tide. An underpass or overpass would cost millions! To my knowledge, the WW&F owns very little original right of way within the Wiscasset town limits. There are at least 25 properties from which easement or purchase of right of way would be necessary. I'm not sure folks would want the train rattling their windows. And in the village, the current parking project has new parking along Railroad Street next to the Maine Central and at the end of the street, barring the way to Main Street. Finally, whether you believe in climate change or not, the sea level is rising, which would necessitate raising the embankment along the bay. Are these huge challenges worth it? I don't believe so.
Title: Re: How Far is the WW&F going to restore the new track?
Post by: Joe Fox on February 15, 2019, 03:56:57 PM
According to reports on climate change, the ocean waters would flood our location at 218 and the  Trout Brook bridge. However that is year away. Probably not going to be seen in my lifetime of another 70 years.

Also all of these things will be STRONGLY considered by several parties including the BOD before any plan is set forth. Said plan would then include how to go about executing the expansion, funding, expectations of benifit, etc.
Title: Re: How Far is the WW&F going to restore the new track?
Post by: Philip Marshall on February 15, 2019, 05:19:43 PM
According to reports on climate change, the ocean waters would flood our location at 218 and the  Trout Brook bridge.

Head Tide is almost right at current sea level, as the name implies. If we're building for the long term, future sea level rise should be considered as a limiting variable for northward expansion as well as southward.
Title: Re: How Far is the WW&F going to restore the new track?
Post by: ALAIN DELASSUS on February 15, 2019, 05:21:09 PM
   I can't help getting in my two cents worth on this discussion. I agree with Bill when he said in his February 13th reply that we have lots to do by then. But  of course it's no harm in dreaming. After all,those who decided on rebuilding the WW&F from scratch in 1989 had dreamed it and their dream has come true eventually.
Title: Re: How Far is the WW&F going to restore the new track?
Post by: Rick Rowlands on February 15, 2019, 06:44:35 PM
This is an organization that thrives on reaching goals, and I don't think we would be content to not pursue lofty goals.  Once 11 is built and 218 is reached, will the WW&F be content to just run what we have or will there always be a desire to set and achieve another lofty goal? 

I think the real uniqueness of the WW&F is the ability to achieve great things.  But what happens once all of those great things have been done?  Just something to think about.

Title: Re: How Far is the WW&F going to restore the new track?
Post by: James Patten on February 15, 2019, 07:19:11 PM
I think the real uniqueness of the WW&F is the ability to achieve great things.  But what happens once all of those great things have been done?  Just something to think about.

There's always Quebec.  Not to mention Waterville and Farmington.
Title: Re: How Far is the WW&F going to restore the new track?
Post by: John Kokas on February 15, 2019, 07:28:41 PM
Maybe what we should do is to start saying that this or that is impossible and can't be done.  It seems when enough people become naysayers,  this group (WW&F) become the rebel non-conformists and get the "impossible" done.  Must be that Yankee independence and stubbornness.  Given time, things change enough for the impossible to become very possible.  Just ask Harry......
Title: Re: How Far is the WW&F going to restore the new track?
Post by: Wayne Laepple on February 15, 2019, 07:41:57 PM
I am not a nay-sayer, not in either direction. But I do think it's important to recognize the potential obstacles that keep us from reaching our goals so we can start thinking about solutions. That is all.
Title: Re: How Far is the WW&F going to restore the new track?
Post by: Joe Fox on February 15, 2019, 10:07:47 PM
If we want to take future sea levels into consideration, then the track should not be extended past the next curve, just 400' from our current end of track. At the route 218 crossing the track is 18' above sea level. (The lowest point on our railroad, and quite possibly the lowest point for us to have on the restored railway.) At Wiscasset the track was approx 5' above sea level. Noteably close to the same almost 90 years later and with mass reduction of the ice caps.
Title: Re: How Far is the WW&F going to restore the new track?
Post by: ALAIN DELASSUS on February 15, 2019, 10:16:03 PM
 It's what is worth  and maybe you'd think it's none of my business because I'll never be an hands-on volunteer but once the mountain  extension is completed  I think  the WW&F would be wise to consolidate for a few years what has been doing untill then before taking up extensing the line  northward or southward. 
Title: Re: How Far is the WW&F going to restore the new track?
Post by: Ed Lecuyer on February 15, 2019, 10:19:06 PM
[Moderator's Note]
First, I want to congratulate everyone for NOT going political when discussing sea level rising. Let's keep it that way.

That said, if the sea level does in fact rise enough to effect our restored railroad (at Wiscasset or Head Tide or Farmington for that matter) we as a people will have far more worse things to worry about than a heritage railroad.
Title: Re: How Far is the WW&F going to restore the new track?
Post by: ALAIN DELASSUS on February 15, 2019, 10:34:09 PM
For sure, but  there will be a lot of water under the Trout brook bridge before it happens .
Title: Re: How Far is the WW&F going to restore the new track?
Post by: Bill Baskerville on February 15, 2019, 11:46:28 PM
Good one Alain... on so many levels... Darn, did it again...
Title: Re: How Far is the WW&F going to restore the new track?
Post by: Mike Fox on February 16, 2019, 12:39:27 AM
Quite honestly, I don't think expansion will never be talked about. No matter where the railroad is constructed to, there will always be more. Some will be physical barriers (218 & Verney Dam) others will be paper barriers. We have just proven the paper barriers can be figured out and worked through, after successfully gaining the required permitting to install a bridge.
Baby steps.
Title: Re: How Far is the WW&F going to restore the new track?
Post by: John Kokas on February 16, 2019, 01:40:57 AM
As an Admiral once said; " Damn the torpedoes - Full steam ahead!"
Title: Re: How Far is the WW&F going to restore the new track?
Post by: Ed Lecuyer on February 16, 2019, 01:44:26 AM
I say: "Torpedo the Dam - Full steam ahead!"
Title: Re: How Far is the WW&F going to restore the new track?
Post by: John Kokas on February 16, 2019, 02:00:05 AM
Oh! Now that was good Ed!  If I can't find a torpedo can I just bring up a few pounds of Tannerite?  It'll be a blast...….  8)
Title: Re: How Far is the WW&F going to restore the new track?
Post by: Bill Baskerville on February 16, 2019, 03:16:52 AM
Now you both just blew my earlier pun out of the water.
Title: Re: How Far is the WW&F going to restore the new track?
Post by: Pete "Cosmo" Barrington on February 27, 2019, 03:36:42 AM
This conversation went deep QUICK!  :-*
Title: Re: How Far is the WW&F going to restore the new track?
Post by: Mike Arnold on February 27, 2019, 02:11:29 PM
I have to ask, how is talking about “climate change “ not political?? Just asking..
mike
Title: Re: How Far is the WW&F going to restore the new track?
Post by: Benjamin Richards on February 27, 2019, 03:50:09 PM
"Climate change" is the most recent name given to a global geophysical phenomenon which is currently under intense study in the scientific community. It refers to measurements and observations about things such as average global temperature, weather patterns, biological trends, and the atmosphere, and specifically how these things seem to be changing more quickly or differently than they have in the observable past.

Plenty of theories exist about the causes of climate change, but these are not part of "climate change" proper.

Knowingly or unknowingly, some people use "climate change" as a proxy for other, often political, issues they care about. Some of them may be linked to climate change in various ways (and with various degrees of confidence), but none of those issues are "climate change" proper, either.
Title: Re: How Far is the WW&F going to restore the new track?
Post by: Philip Marshall on February 27, 2019, 04:00:10 PM
Good answer.
Title: Re: How Far is the WW&F going to restore the new track?
Post by: Joe Fox on February 28, 2019, 12:50:20 PM
Very good answer. I was trying to think of a good way to put it. But just because one party may press pollution more than another does not mean it is a political topic. But instead a topic everyone should consider and think of ways to do their part to pollute less, use less energy, etc. Although asingle person has a minimal impact, several can have a significant impact. Such as volunteers car pooling, building track with manual methods, etc.

Regardless of the climates future, our museum has a bright future ahead with plenty of potential and expansion. It is a matter of what makes sense.