W.W.&F. Discussion Forum

WW&F Railway Museum Discussion => Museum Discussion => Topic started by: Ed Lecuyer on June 12, 2009, 12:17:19 AM

Title: Map of WW&F Museum
Post by: Ed Lecuyer on June 12, 2009, 12:17:19 AM
After many requests, here is a decent map of the museum ROW with some common questions answered.
(http://www.spongeawareness.com/maps/ww&f_topo.jpg)
Note: The railroad is currently slightly longer than depicted above (in 2007.)
By spring 2015, 2.5 miles of track has been completed to the Top of the Mountain where a run-around track has been added utilizing the grade of the stub siding that the original railroad used to double the hill.
By fall 2016, additional track was laid to the first washout (depicted on the map as such.) This track was ballasted in spring 2017. Plans for 2017 include repairing this washout (and a smaller one north of there) so that track can be laid to the landslide (the second washout icon on the map.)


And a map of the Sheepscot Station Campus:
(http://www.wwfry.org/pics/for_forum/SheepscotCampus.jpg)
Since the above map was made, the 3-way switch was not constructed, instead a traditional "ladder" track was used to feed the carbarn and woods track. All track shown on that map (with the exception of the 2 roundhouse stalls) is complete. All structures, with the exception of the roundhouse) are now complete.
Title: Re: Map of WW&F Museum
Post by: Mike Fox on June 13, 2009, 09:56:06 PM
Very nice Ed.
Title: Re: Map of WW&F Museum
Post by: Paul Horky on June 14, 2009, 11:34:31 AM
Ed
 Nice job on the map. A question Moody shows on his hand drawen map in Robert Jones book  just north of TOM down toward Trout brook brige that in 3/4 mi there are 5 curves that wiggle down the mountain can these be seen or has this part of the grade not been cleared yet?
Title: Re: Map of WW&F Museum
Post by: Ed Lecuyer on June 14, 2009, 06:35:05 PM
I think the curves on Moody map are just an exaggeration. The line on my map was plotted from GPS readings. While GPS is not perfect - and only reasonably accurate - it would be close enough given the scale of the map I have drawn.
Title: Re: Map of WW&F Museum
Post by: James Patten on June 14, 2009, 08:31:56 PM
The Moody curves were greatly exaggerated.  There might be five or pretty gentle curves on the Mountain, some of which are short enough you won't see them on the map.
Title: Re: Map of WW&F Museum
Post by: Paul Horky on June 15, 2009, 01:21:46 AM
 To both Ed & James
 Thanks for the info on this area. I had looked at Google Earth and could not see any signs of a series of curves but did not know if I was missing something under the trees
as this area appears to be heavely wooded.
Title: Re: Map of WW&F Museum
Post by: Dale Reynolds on July 21, 2009, 06:12:32 PM
ed, that is a wonderful map. i can't print out all of it, i get 4 pages with page 2 being the top of the map down to cockeye curve. then page 3 starts the replies. am i doing something wrong???? dale
Title: Re: Map of WW&F Museum
Post by: Ed Lecuyer on July 21, 2009, 06:53:31 PM
The best way to print the map is to right-click on it and choose "Save Picture As". Then, save the image as a JPG file in your 'My Pictures' folder. Finally, open your Pictures Folder (on your PC), double-click the map, and print it using the software provided for doing so.

(These are general directions for a PC using Internet Explorer, other systems may differ.)
Title: Re: Map of WW&F Museum
Post by: Dale Reynolds on July 21, 2009, 10:53:07 PM
thanks, ed worked like a charm!!! will help me when i walk the route next month, thanks again.... dale
Title: Re: Map of WW&F Museum
Post by: Matthew Gustafson on September 30, 2009, 04:04:38 PM
Thanks Ed for the map. Now I know how much of the current right of way is operational and what still need to restored. Great job Ed.  :) ;) :D :)
Title: Re: Map of WW&F Museum
Post by: Ed Lecuyer on September 30, 2009, 04:18:40 PM
Of course, in a few weeks, it will be out of date - I hope!
Title: Re: Map of WW&F Museum
Post by: Matthew Gustafson on January 03, 2010, 01:53:12 AM
Well do you think its out-dated by now or not? =)
Title: Re: Map of WW&F Museum
Post by: Stewart "Start" Rhine on January 03, 2010, 10:23:11 AM
An updated map would show the mainline with an additional (scale) 1/4 inch of track towards TOM.  The next big change to the museum trackage will probably be the installation of the switch and the first part of the spur for the North Yard, although it would not be indicated on the map.
Title: Re: Map of WW&F Museum
Post by: Jock Ellis on January 03, 2010, 12:38:22 PM
This is the first map I've seen that gave me an idea of what you guys have done. Great map! Great ROW work!
Title: Re: Map of WW&F Museum
Post by: Jock Ellis on March 04, 2010, 01:35:15 PM
Another thought. From my college ROTC map class knowledge (a little knowledge is a dangerous thing), I see that you are going to go between some relatively steep hills soon. Is this going to be a good view for the riders? It seems like it would be quite exciting. Is it more expensive to lay track through this area or is the ROW still there?
Title: Re: Map of WW&F Museum
Post by: Mike Fox on March 04, 2010, 05:46:37 PM
Rebuilding on the old Right of way. It is in poor shape in places and will need quite a bit of work in the washouts, but will provide a very nice trip when completed. The scenery through the trees in that section is nice.
Title: Re: Map of WW&F Museum
Post by: Steve Smith on March 04, 2010, 07:16:14 PM
Jock, on the way from Top of the Mountain down to the crossing over Trout Brook, there should be some nice views out of the left-hand windows looking down the slope into the gulley where Trout Brook runs roughly parallel to the right of way. Maybe the crews will have to warn passengers so they don't all rush to the left side and topple a coach!  :D
Title: Re: Map of WW&F Museum
Post by: Matthew Gustafson on April 22, 2010, 02:16:36 AM
 :o  ::) ;) We all dont want that to happen.
Title: Re: Map of WW&F Museum
Post by: Zak LaRoza on November 05, 2010, 12:39:52 PM
So, when the museum builds further, which direction are they going? The 5 miles down to Wiscasset, or up to The Mountain?
Title: Re: Map of WW&F Museum
Post by: John McNamara on November 05, 2010, 03:07:22 PM
So, when the museum builds further, which direction are they going? The 5 miles down to Wiscasset, or up to The Mountain?

Hi Zak,

Expanding to the north is the plan. Going south has several obstacles, including a pond on the right-of-way, a widened highway that encroaches on the right-of-way, and three houses. Here's the plan:

http://www.wwfry.org/projects/longrangeplan.pdf (http://www.wwfry.org/projects/longrangeplan.pdf)

-John
Title: Re: Map of WW&F Museum
Post by: Glenn Byron on November 05, 2010, 07:19:36 PM
John,  Thank you for posting The WW&F Railway Museum Long Range Plan for all to see. This IS Required Reading, every one of the 48 pages.  One cannot begin to understand the magnitude of operating a faculity such as this without considering all alternatives.  Our members near and far can each find areas where their expertise can add to the pie.  It is so wonderful to see that several of the goals established in the early stages of this plan are now obtained and areas where concentration is severely needed are defined. Special thanks to the committee members Patten, Buczkowski, Lamontagne, Maguire and yourself who volunteered your efforts to lay this out for all to see.  As a newcomer to the organization, reading this gives me insight into the inner workings otherwise not understood.  To the old timers this is probably all matter of fact.  Top of the Hill or Bust!!
Title: Re: Map of WW&F Museum
Post by: Jock Ellis on November 22, 2010, 04:39:38 AM
Sorry I keep thinking of questions but what is the elevation change between the museum and the highest point on the present track? If I read it correctly - again from college ROTC  44 years ago - the top of the mountain is at about 130 feet above sea level. But I cannot figure out the height of the museum. And of course, I could be wrong about the mountain part.
PS
I hope y'all have a great thanksgiving!
Title: Re: Map of WW&F Museum
Post by: John McNamara on November 22, 2010, 03:50:28 PM
According to the 1957 Wiscasset USGS map, http://historical.mytopo.com/getImage.asp?fname=wisc57sw.jpg&state=ME (http://historical.mytopo.com/getImage.asp?fname=wisc57sw.jpg&state=ME), the elevation at the intersection of Cross Rd and 218 is 107 feet. The museum is slightly lower, so maybe 102 feet?
Title: Re: Map of WW&F Museum
Post by: Ed Lecuyer on November 22, 2010, 05:22:41 PM
Here's a quick profile of the main line from Sheepscot to 218. Note that the resolution of the elevation model within the software I use is not detailed enough to account for fills and cuts. Thus, this profile is really an approximation... but it gives you an idea of how the Top of the Mountain compares to the crossing of 218 and Sheepscot station.

Some spot elevations (again, approximate)
Sheepscot Sta: 70ft above sea level.
Humason Brook: 103ft
Alna Center: 118ft
Top of "the Ladder": 150ft
End of track (2009): 100ft
Top of the Mountain: 150ft
Carlton/Trout Brook: 25ft
Route 218: 45ft
Title: Re: Map of WW&F Museum
Post by: James Patten on November 22, 2010, 06:31:28 PM
Now if you smooth off the profile Ed gave us, that gives you an idea of the railroad gradients of the WW&F in that short a distance.  Except I don't believe the "Top of the Mountain" location elevation, especially if end of track is only a football field away.
Title: Re: Map of WW&F Museum
Post by: Ed Lecuyer on November 22, 2010, 10:22:39 PM
Reading the USGS topo map (which is going to be more accurate than the digital model, but still not enough to show the cuts and fills of a 2' railroad ROW) gives these numbers:
Sheepscot Sta: 73ft above sea level.
Humason Brook: 70ft
Alna Center: 109ft
Top of "the Ladder": 115ft
End of track (2009): 100ft
Top of the Mountain: 85ft
Carlton/Trout Brook: 20ft
Route 218: 30ft

Interesting that the "Top of the Ladder" seams to be the highest point on the (current) railroad, much higher than the Top of the Mountain.  Regardless, a rise of 50ft from Sheepscot, and a rise of 85 feet from 218 is quite impressive.
Title: Re: Map of WW&F Museum
Post by: Stewart "Start" Rhine on November 22, 2010, 11:31:50 PM
Ed, Here are more elevations.  Most measurements are at the grade crossings and came from Google Earth.

Sheepscot Station         71ft
Jaynes Way Crossing      67ft
Brook Crossing               69ft
Sutters Crossing            63ft
Sheepscot Mills xing       80ft
Humason Brook Trestle   70ft
Trasks' Crossing            90ft
Averil Road Crossing      109ft
North AC Yard Limit       112ft
Albees' Crossing            110ft
Rosewood Crossing         97ft
End Of Track  5/2010      84ft
TOM Switch                   76ft
Trout Brook Trestle         19ft
Title: Re: Map of WW&F Museum
Post by: Ed Lecuyer on November 22, 2010, 11:43:15 PM
Google Earth must be using a different elevation model than my product is. (We're hoping to update ours within the next few months with some newer data, but I digress.)

Short of going out and surveying the line, the USGS data read from the topo map is probably the most accurate you'll get. (And even then, USGS topo maps are only guaranteed to be accurate to 50'... but most are much better than that.)
Title: Re: Map of WW&F Museum
Post by: Mike Fox on November 24, 2010, 06:15:02 PM
Doesn't seem like a 20 foot climb from Trask to Averil Road.  Guess it must be though.
Title: Re: Map of WW&F Museum
Post by: Ed Lecuyer on November 24, 2010, 06:47:17 PM
Trasks Crossing falls right on a 90ft contour line on the USGS map. Averil Road (Alna Center) is just shy of a 110ft contour line. Unless there are cuts/fills that are not shown, I suspect that there could well be a 20' difference between the two points (FYI, it's 1300ft between Trasks and Averil.)
Title: Re: Map of WW&F Museum
Post by: Andrew Laverdiere on October 17, 2012, 06:59:01 PM
Good job on the map.
Title: Re: Map of WW&F Museum
Post by: Linc Reed-Nickerson on March 23, 2015, 10:07:51 PM
For the record what is the Lat Lon of the current end-of-track?  Top o' the Mountain?

Title: Re: Map of WW&F Museum
Post by: Ed Lecuyer on March 24, 2015, 12:50:28 AM
I don't have a Lat/Lon of the current end-of-track since the main line was extended after I took my last GPS reading. On the Spring Work Weekend I'll try to remember to bring a GPS. I have a new one that my employer manufactures that is accurate to less than 1 meter. (A regular handheld GPS is only accurate to around 5-10 meters.)
Title: Re: Map of WW&F Museum
Post by: Ed Lecuyer on December 14, 2016, 02:10:24 PM
[Moderator's Note]
Discussions beyond the current length of operations (and immediate expansion plans) can be found at:
http://forum.wwfry.org/index.php?topic=2857.0 (http://forum.wwfry.org/index.php?topic=2857.0)
Title: Re: Map of WW&F Museum
Post by: Carl G. Soderstrom on June 15, 2017, 03:26:38 AM
I hate (not really) to be picky but you missed the shipping container -
or is it under the word balloon "Garage"? if it is close "Yes" will be accepted :)
Title: Re: Map of WW&F Museum
Post by: Ed Lecuyer on June 15, 2017, 10:55:26 AM
Yes. Under the garage word balloon is the relative location of the shipping container.

When I drew that map a few years ago, the layout of the woods track had not been finalized, and there were no plans to acquire a storage container.
Title: Re: Map of WW&F Museum
Post by: Carl G. Soderstrom on June 16, 2017, 03:15:52 AM
Problem solved :)
Title: Re: Map of WW&F Museum
Post by: Paul Uhland on July 15, 2017, 03:18:23 PM
When the container is painted dark green to match the woods beyond and is harder to see, the correct response should then be..."container? What container?"  ;D
Title: Re: Map of WW&F Museum
Post by: Ed Lecuyer on November 05, 2017, 03:44:42 PM
Here is a (fairly) clear map of the WW&F Mountain Extension:

(http://wwfry.org/pics/MountainExtensionSectionMapLowRes.jpg)


To clarify:
The Mountain Extension is broken up into seven "Sections." These sections match zones that require specific permitting. Some Sections require no permits, others (such as Sections 3 and 6) are more complex and require the cooperation and approval of several agencies.

There are 17 specific "Locations" that require work. Some Sections contain several Locations, others Sections consist of only one Location. As of October 2017, all ROW work at Section 1 (Locations 1, 2, & 3) is complete; the end of track is Location 1. For the record, the coordinates of the End of Track are: 044.097636o N x 069.623382o W.

Major contour lines are at 10' intervals, minor ones (dotted) are at 2'. This really makes the flat land at Top of the Mountain for our future mills really stand out. (Contour lines are omitted outside of the work zone.) The "Top of the Mountain" dot indicates the location of the former cart road crossing.
Title: Re: Map of WW&F Museum
Post by: John McNamara on November 05, 2017, 04:12:01 PM
In a word, "WOW!" We are indeed fortunate to have a mapping professional in our group. ;D
Title: Re: Map of WW&F Museum
Post by: John Kokas on November 05, 2017, 06:45:51 PM
I echo John's comments.  Now all the discussions back and forth as to where, when, and work scope become very clear.  My compliments Ed.
Title: Re: Map of WW&F Museum
Post by: Jeff Schumaker on November 05, 2017, 10:52:37 PM
Fantastic map and explanation, Ed.

Jeff S.
Title: Re: Map of WW&F Museum
Post by: Wayne Laepple on November 06, 2017, 01:57:56 AM
Well done, Ed. Well done!
Title: Re: Map of WW&F Museum
Post by: Russ Nelson on January 24, 2019, 01:01:28 PM
I've been editing OpenStreetMap to make it more accurate in the area of the WW&F. This URL should show you the entire system: https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=14/44.0801/-69.6199
If you want to go looking for the abandoned portions of the W&Q, you need to look at http://openrailwaymap.org because the default OSM map doesn't show abandoned railroads.
Title: Re: Map of WW&F Museum
Post by: Dave Crow on January 24, 2019, 02:21:13 PM
Russ,

Very nice work.  Are you planning to update the map to show the trackage at ML&M?  Just kidding.

Dave Crow
Title: Re: Map of WW&F Museum
Post by: Matthew Gustafson on February 01, 2019, 04:02:36 AM
Are there still plans to eventually extend the railroad to Head Tide or have those plans been canceled and the end of the line will end at the Highway?
Title: Re: Map of WW&F Museum
Post by: Stephen Piwowarski on February 01, 2019, 06:43:23 AM
No, those 'plans' have not been cancelled, but there never was an official 'plan' either.

Right now we are concentrating our effort on completing the Mountain Extension. We are already beginning to assess in which direction to extend track next and how far. That being said, extending to The Head Tide area might not be the next thing to happen, but it is on the table.

Rest assured that an announcement will be made at an appropriate time once a decision has been made.

Title: Re: Map of WW&F Museum
Post by: Mike Fox on February 05, 2019, 01:33:36 PM
To add a little information to what Steve has said, we have been lightly discussing our next track expansion. The section along The Sheepscot River could be a nice ride, but may require extensive expensive work. There are a couple large projects at Sheepscot we want to tackle. Those may get started before the next extension phase begins.

We are also looking into going south from Sheepscot. This will have a true operational benefit, rather than just extending the ride. But for now, the short term goal is route 218. Once we accomplish that, then we can start looking into this.
Title: Re: Map of WW&F Museum
Post by: Skyler Kimball on February 05, 2019, 11:11:42 PM
WOW! With all the talk over going toward 218, I completely forgot that there is an alternative to going north. I must admit, whenever I stand on the platform, I always look longingly at the neatly mowed path old ROW to the south, across the road, and wonder...
Title: Re: Map of WW&F Museum
Post by: Matthew Gustafson on February 05, 2019, 11:44:52 PM
That’s sounds great, so you guys feel a lot more confident at building a road crossing at Sheepscots and getting the railroad Involved with the FRA as I remember years ago you guys were talking like it was not worth building that road crossing. I’m glad your operation has expanded so much since you guys first started.
Title: Re: Map of WW&F Museum
Post by: Joe Fox on February 06, 2019, 05:33:55 PM
One thing we are in desperate need of is a regular track crew. Which will also be taken into consideration.
Title: Re: Map of WW&F Museum
Post by: Philip Marshall on February 06, 2019, 06:42:40 PM
One thing we are in desperate need of is a regular track crew. Which will also be taken into consideration.

In other words, we shouldn't build more than we can maintain.
Title: Re: Map of WW&F Museum
Post by: Jason M Lamontagne on February 06, 2019, 10:56:16 PM
I think it’s much more fair to say that any expansion will ensure a complete maintenance plan is in place.  No one aspect governs such decisions; instead all aspects must be considered.

It is also fair to say that we are becoming much more cognizant of the level of maintenance which the track and right of way deserve, and that we need to improve our performance in those areas.  Joe’s been doing a great job both advocating and executing that attention.

See ya
Jason
Title: Re: Map of WW&F Museum
Post by: Wayne Laepple on February 06, 2019, 11:59:40 PM
If we are going to get into a chat about track, I would like to suggest that we work toward adjusting the vertical curves in a few spots. Prime candidates would be the sag north of the Humason bridge and the sharp dip south of the south switch at Top of the Mountain.

Of course I know there are other, higher priorities, but those would improve the ride of our equipment and reduce wear and tear. Just something to consider.
Title: Re: Map of WW&F Museum
Post by: Joe Fox on February 07, 2019, 06:05:03 AM
Honestly, a tamper with 8 heads would greatly speed up track maintenance as our only current slow track project is tamping. And we are working towards that little by little, however the longer the track becomes the more important it is to have a designated track crew. But then again some machinery might help mitigate the volunteer effort needed on track. Just like the more equipment we get the more important it is to keep up on maintenance, which is currently handled extremely well.

Expansion, in my mind is something that keeps us both growing and in everyones mind on what they will see next. But there will come a time when man power starts to become a factor.
Title: Re: Map of WW&F Museum
Post by: John Kokas on February 07, 2019, 10:53:40 AM
I think the happy median will be for more mechanization to support MOW work during the weekdays but still save the "old fashioned" hand labor work for the work weekends.  It may not be as efficient, but I think the enjoyment for everyone is being out together and the jovial ribbing and jokes that naturally come with the job.

On a side note, I believe we have a couple of members who hail from the land down under.  Since they have the largest 2' rail network in the world, it would probably help to inquire what the major lines use for MOW equipment and who might have used equipment for sale.
Title: Re: Map of WW&F Museum
Post by: Joe Fox on February 07, 2019, 10:33:43 PM
Personally, I enjoy our giant work parties, but yes the day to day maintenance is getting closer to mechanized machines each year. Rest assured there will always be a need for our work party days.
Title: Re: Map of WW&F Museum
Post by: Russ Nelson on May 29, 2019, 12:36:16 AM
Personally, I enjoy our giant work parties, but yes the day to day maintenance is getting closer to mechanized machines each year. Rest assured there will always be a need for our work party days.
So when is the Summer Work Weekend this year?  ;)
Title: Re: Map of WW&F Museum
Post by: Ed Lecuyer on May 29, 2019, 01:19:21 AM
Rock the Mountain.
July 20th and 21st, Roadmaster Joe Fox would love a large crew of volunteers to get the track on the Mountain completely ballasted, tamped, and prepared for service during Fall Work Weekend and beyond. Additionally, there are plans to address a few other sections on the line that require routine maintenance. It promises to be a great weekend of work and will be incredibly helpful keeping the entire Railway in fine shape, as this weekend will help to knock some projects off of the track crews list, so come on out and ‘Rock the Mountain’ with us!
Title: Re: Map of WW&F Museum
Post by: Paul Uhland on July 18, 2019, 04:11:58 PM
Is there a serious attempt to investigate buying used, 24-inch gauge track maintenance equipment from Australia, another country, domestically?
There sure seems to be an urgent need for a higher-capacity tamper, at least.
Title: Re: Map of WW&F Museum
Post by: John Kokas on July 18, 2019, 04:29:50 PM
Paul,  Dave can answer your question.  I suggest you PM him.
Title: Re: Map of WW&F Museum
Post by: Ed Lecuyer on October 25, 2019, 11:26:56 PM
Here general map of the trackage now in-place. It is superimposed on a classic USGS quad sheet from the early 1900s.
(http://wwfry.org/pics/routemap.jpg)