W.W.&F. Discussion Forum

General Topics => General Discussion => Topic started by: Russ Nelson on October 26, 2019, 04:04:55 AM

Title: Velocipede
Post by: Russ Nelson on October 26, 2019, 04:04:55 AM
We need a velocipede. It's definitely period, it would be useful for signal maintenance &etc. I know somebody who made a standard gauge one. Wouldn't be hard to adapt the design to 2'. All I would need to make one is three steel wheels.

The only difficulty would be dispatching it. Maybe it only operates when no powered equipment is out?
Title: Re: Velocipede
Post by: Mike Fox on October 26, 2019, 08:25:30 AM
It would be no different than when a hand car or any other non scheduled train is run. Either need a dispatcher or have signed up as self dispatch (if so qualified) to have control of the railroad so it can be run.

If I remember correctly, one of our members has one that he is either restoring or building. A milti-gauge version. He was looking for wheels the last I knew.
Title: Re: Velocipede
Post by: Bill Baskerville on October 26, 2019, 11:17:53 AM
A lot of the wooden parts to make a velocipede were in Alices attic
Title: Re: Velocipede
Post by: Allan Fisher on October 26, 2019, 03:02:48 PM
There is a picture of Harry Percival riding a velocipede at Sheepscot about 20 years ago. Was it ours or a loaner from a member?
Title: Re: Velocipede
Post by: Graham Buxton on October 27, 2019, 10:23:13 AM
This picture is in the WW&F Gift Shop, available as a refrigerator magnet:

(http://d2isyty7gbnm74.cloudfront.net/unsafe/646x646/https://square-production.s3.amazonaws.com/files/703c016daf68c121b9609bda1fc28733/original.jpeg)

See: http://giftshop.wwfry.org/ (http://giftshop.wwfry.org/)
The photo credit reads "Photo by Bob Cavenaugh", but there is no info there as to the ownership of the velocipede itself.
Title: Re: Velocipede
Post by: Marcel Levesque on October 27, 2019, 03:49:45 PM
Yes, the photo was taken by Bob Cavenaugh and the velo belongs to fellow museum member Bruce Wilson.  It is an original Sheffield #1 and if memory serves was originally from the B&M.  Bruce still owns the velo and is in storage.  Bruce did bring it along to the museum on a few occasions to try in out.  I did not run very well because it needed alot of work.  Also the conversion from standard to narrow gauge was not very well done.  The biggest issue with narrowing up a velo is counterbalance.  The closer the outrigger wheel to the bike it is much harder to keep it from tipping over.  This problem is also compounded if is is a velo #2.  Usually a metal counter weight is necessary to offset the leverage/balance loss due to the shorter outrigger arm.  I have seen some modifiers use larger diameter, full steel wheels instead of wooden spoked wheels along with a counter weight to help with this balance loss.  Yes there is a built velo body upstairs in the shop building and I believe it was built by Ben Campbell.  However there are still many missing metal pieces to it. The only two footer to use a velo was the SR&RL. I believe there is a photo of it in one of Bob Jones' Two Feet Between The Rails books. 
Title: Re: Velocipede
Post by: Philip Marshall on October 27, 2019, 05:36:54 PM
The Phillips Historical Society has an SR&RL velocipede, which it's interesting to note has not one but two wheels on the outrigger. This would appear to be consistent with Marcel's observation about the problem of weight and balance on narrow gauge. The 4-wheel design makes the car look like an "Irish mail" track car with one powered wheelset, but it really is a velocipede with powered wheels on one side only. ("Irish mail" cars appear to have been much more common on the Two-Footers, almost certainly for the reasons above, and were used by the WW&F as well as the B&SR. One of the photos of the Whitefield section house has a guy on one.)
Title: Re: Velocipede
Post by: Carl G. Soderstrom on October 27, 2019, 05:55:45 PM
We if not a Velocipede why not this:

https://www.discoverlivesteam.com/discoverforsale/forsale/9_Weith/index.htm

There are a lot of ingenious Yankees out there that could build one.
PVC pipe for wheels? 
Title: Re: Velocipede
Post by: Allan Fisher on October 28, 2019, 02:22:45 AM
Last year we rebuilt a standard gauge Sheffield at the Western Railway - cost was $1500 plus 240 volunteer man hours - but we only had to replace some wheels and the seat.

SO - if you want one for the museum, pony up the funds and schedule yourself up in Alna for 8 to 10 weekends to get it built.
Title: Re: Velocipede
Post by: Stephen Piwowarski on October 28, 2019, 11:45:41 PM
Hi Russ,

The body of a velocipede- not unlike the Sandy River one pictured above, and nearly identical to the one Harry is riding is in the old wood shop upstairs in the car shop. I am not sure when it was built or who built it, but the project has been languishing for many years.

A couple of years ago some of our younger members took an interest in it- and I am certain they would still be interested in helping if someone were willing to champion the project.

There are many mechanical parts too, but I believe some things would need to be made. I am not sure how complete/incomplete the 'kit' is at this time.

Steve
Title: Re: Velocipede
Post by: Philip Marshall on October 29, 2019, 12:05:36 AM
Remarkably, there are currently no fewer than 5 velocipedes advertised for sale on the Ozark Mountain Railcar site. Prices range from $6000 to $7500. It appears to be the machine of the moment.
Title: Re: Velocipede
Post by: Wayne Laepple on November 03, 2019, 11:34:28 PM
I have seen a standard-gauge version of the SR&RL car. Cars of this type, as well as the more common hand car, were referred to back in the day as "lever cars."
Title: Re: Velocipede
Post by: Roger Cole on November 04, 2019, 06:51:32 PM
I found this website on velocipedes.  There are several plans available for download.  They obviously would need to be adapted to two-foot gauge.

http://railvelocipedes.org/
Title: Re: Velocipede
Post by: Bill Baskerville on November 04, 2019, 07:15:06 PM
The Brits are very active in this area.  I have been on a newsletter group for several years.  Their news letter is full of history, how to's, sources, and the sometimes comical meets they hold.  Next time I receive on I will try and remember to put the link up here.
Title: Re: Velocipede
Post by: Benjamin Campbell on November 11, 2019, 05:05:09 PM
I have a velocipede down here in MA which I brought to the museum several times in it's early years. I constructed a two foot gauge outrigger arm by bending two pieces of flat steel bar stock into 'S' shapes with several pieces of wood blocking between. Bruce Wilson loved riding it which inspired him to purchase the one shown in this thread. It did have a tendency to be tippy resulting in Bruce toppling over on my velo (luckily it was into a snow bank). This should be easy to remedy by placing a counter weight out by the outrigger wheel.

I started constructing the two man velocipede now in the attic of the museum after seeing a photograph of one along the WW&F. It later turned out to be a Maine Central car at the WW&FRy/MCRR diamond which dampened my ambitions slightly as did the expense/difficulty of obtaining gears and particularly wheels. It was under foot in my folks basements hence its gifting to the museum. Several members have contemplated completing it but have run into the same issue with wheels and gears. It really makes more sense to purchase an existing car in working or restorable condition.

There is photographic evidence of three wheel self propelled velocipedes being used on the SR&RLRR but no such evidence that one was ever in use on the WW&F (there was at least one four wheel car on which the operator sat pulling and pushing a velocipede style lever) That said - they are fun and easy to use cars to use which could have many uses on the line as well as being captivating to the visiting public.

There is currently one for sale on Ebay. It is in Texas and can be bought for 1550 unless bid higher. It appears to be well weathered so the condition of the wheels could be a factor. Good wheels free of excessive wear and/or pitting are imperative as they are the only component which are very difficult to procure. The largest wheel is larger than that used on motor cars and fabricated from much lighter steel. The earliest velocipedes used cast rims which would actually be easier to fabricate than the spun or drop forged ones used on later models.
Title: Re: Velocipede
Post by: Wayne Laepple on November 11, 2019, 10:35:41 PM
I vaguely recall seeing either a velocipede or an Irish mail with a cranked axle rather than gears.
Title: Re: Velocipede
Post by: Bill Baskerville on November 18, 2019, 02:08:22 PM
I have been following the British Velocipede group for many years.  Their newsletter website is http://railvelocipedes.org/.  If you want to be added to their email list, email Jacqui Thomas at jackiethomas002@hotmail.co.uk.  They are a very sturdy yet playful group and if you follow their newsletters they have great sources materials and plans for everything from pole and sail cars to ....

Looking at the Australian 2 foot hand car on the last page makes me think we should put our two hand cars together and send a picture to them.  They would be very interested in our progress should we decide to complete the hand car/mail car that is upstairs in Alice's attic.
Title: Re: Velocipede
Post by: ALAIN DELASSUS on November 20, 2019, 03:30:18 PM
 The TPT the Company the AMTP has taken over from owned two velocipedes of sorts that required two sturdy men sitting on a bench turning together a crank with their both arms to move them forward through a chain and cogs kind of like a bike. Plus there was a small tip skip right behind the bench.I'm going to post a pic of  the "pĂ©dalette"that has been restored by the association on my fb page.
Title: Re: Velocipede
Post by: Jeff Schumaker on November 21, 2019, 12:53:29 PM
Any chance you could post it here, as well, Alain?

Jeff S.
Title: Re: Velocipede
Post by: ALAIN DELASSUS on November 21, 2019, 05:41:10 PM
Sorry Jeff but no matter how I try I can make it.
Title: Re: Velocipede
Post by: Bill Baskerville on November 21, 2019, 09:12:45 PM
Alain,

Email the pictures to Jeff and he can post them.
Title: Re: Velocipede
Post by: Bill Reidy on November 21, 2019, 09:22:52 PM
Alain,

If it's the October 9th photo you posted on your Facebook page, I can grab a copy and post it to this thread, if you'd like.

Great photos on your page by the way.  If Michelle and I ever get back to Europe, we now have two places to visit:  The WHR and FR in Wales, and the AMTP in France.
Title: Re: Velocipede
Post by: Bill Baskerville on November 22, 2019, 02:13:24 AM
Alain,

... I can grab a copy and post it to this thread ...
  Bill R. is much more talented with computers than Bill B.
Title: Re: Velocipede
Post by: ALAIN DELASSUS on November 22, 2019, 12:07:48 PM
Hello Jeff I just sent you an Email with two pictures of TPT velocipede. Hope they 've gone trough to you.
Title: Re: Velocipede
Post by: ALAIN DELASSUS on November 22, 2019, 12:23:09 PM
Hello Bill Reidy ! Thanks to visit my Fb page. Youl'll be welcomed on the AMTP and if I'm not on  a trip  or on vacation that 'll be of course a bliss to show you around  the museum, the facilities  and  to come along with you on the train. By the way you can grab any picture you want from my fb to post it on this thread or wherever you like.
Title: Re: Velocipede
Post by: ALAIN DELASSUS on November 22, 2019, 12:30:25 PM
Hello Graham Buxton ! Sorry but just replied  to your Email but my message and the pics did not go through.
Title: Re: Velocipede
Post by: Bill Reidy on November 22, 2019, 09:33:39 PM
Here is Alain's photo:

(https://i.imgur.com/LN4Nmkw.jpg)
Title: Re: Velocipede
Post by: Bill Baskerville on November 22, 2019, 10:13:43 PM
Alain,

What a great picture.  If we had 20 or 30 of these we could move a lot of ballast.
Title: Re: Velocipede
Post by: John Kokas on November 22, 2019, 10:23:14 PM
Bill,  we still have several dumps in the weeds off the woods track.  Are you getting the same ideas that I am after looking at Alain's picture?
Title: Re: Velocipede
Post by: Mike the Choochoo Nix on November 23, 2019, 12:31:45 AM
I noticed the hooks on the side to hold shovels or other tools.
Mike N.
Title: Re: Velocipede
Post by: Bill Baskerville on November 23, 2019, 01:04:19 AM
Bill,  we still have several dumps in the weeds off the woods track.  Are you getting the same ideas that I am after looking at Alain's picture?
John,

No, I didn't think of the woods track dumps.  You do have a good idea.  Perhaps only one to go along after the track crew when they are surfacing low joint spots.  Or after the tamper when we are doing track maintenance to back fill the ballast holes after tamping.
Title: Re: Velocipede
Post by: John McNamara on November 23, 2019, 02:14:57 AM
If you are thinking of the dump cars that I think you mean, they have the problem that dumping from them places the dumped ballast way far out.
Title: Re: Velocipede
Post by: Bill Baskerville on November 23, 2019, 02:28:55 AM
John,  I was thinking of turning the dump sideways (90 degrees) so it dumped directly on the track.  I think one dump car has already been modified that way.
Title: Re: Velocipede
Post by: John Kokas on November 23, 2019, 12:25:30 PM
John & Bill, you are both correct.  I was already thinking along the lines Bill mentioned which is to turn the bucket mounting 90 degrees, and extend or mount on a new frame.  Due to the weight, I would think something motorized (5-10 hp) and geared to no more than 10-12 mph would be suitable.  Drivetrain is a question and also whether or not to have a gearbox for reverse.  This kind of setup would be great for a MOW crew with tools/ballast for low spot repair, tie replacement, kink straightening, etc.  Thoughts anyone?
Title: Re: Velocipede
Post by: ALAIN DELASSUS on November 23, 2019, 12:32:41 PM
Thank you so much you all for posting the photo and your comments. Good idea to use the dump to carry  and pouring ballast  but  given the steep grades of the main line the both trackcrew members that will use such a  velocipede would be wise to have brawny arms not only to move it forward but as well to hold it back because there is no freewheel and to slow it down efficiently you have to use the engine break namely your arms besides the pedal brake. I'm sure everybody in the trackcrew has such arms if not you would tinker something to secure and ease the use of it.
Title: Re: Velocipede
Post by: Wayne Laepple on November 23, 2019, 05:47:30 PM
There are a few issues with using the Koppel tip cars. First, several of them are in pretty bad shape with rusted out sections that would have to be replaced. Secondly, they are designed to dump all at once and are hard to control once they start to tip, so it's often all or nothing. A possible solution might be to make gates near the bottom of the "V" to allow some control over the ballast coming out of the hopper.

Perhaps a safer and more practical solution would be to find a dump box such as those designed to fit the bed of a pickup truck and install that on a Koppel frame. I have seen dump boxes from Model AA Fords, as well as moe modern dump boxes, on standard gauge push car decks.
Title: Re: Velocipede
Post by: Wayne Laepple on November 23, 2019, 08:44:37 PM
Here's a true story of a velocipede adventure in Australia:
Title: Re: Velocipede
Post by: Steve Smith on November 26, 2019, 12:11:35 AM
Perhaps volunteers will enjoy this elegant velocipede on the First-Museum Railway southeast of Bremen, Germany. The photo, taken about six years ago, is from WW&F member Wolf-Jobst Siedler, wearing his conductor’s uniform, and observing as his son, Tobias, greets riders.

(http://i1059.photobucket.com/albums/t437/StevenSmith3/First%20Museum-Railway%20of%20Germany/009_Tobias_train_station_zpse793c638.jpg)

Title: Re: Velocipede
Post by: Steve Smith on November 26, 2019, 12:14:02 AM
Thanks a bunch, Photobucket. Didn't expect you to plaster your logo, or whatever that is, on top of a nice photo. Oh well.
Title: Re: Velocipede
Post by: Graham Buxton on November 26, 2019, 12:47:28 AM
Steve,  I suggest using postimages.org (https://postimages.org/) instead of Photobucket.

You can open an account for free, and there are no recurring fees either.  I particularly like their 'thumbnail' feature, but there are a variety of other image posting options as well.

I've had a free PostImages account for about 3 years and am pleased with how it works - with no problems. (I am a former Photobucket user / refugee  :P )

Here is an example 'thumbnail' image from 2019 Fall Work Weekend ...
(https://i.postimg.cc/4YsLbcm1/IMG-20191013-103045966.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/4YsLbcm1)
(click on image to see larger)


Same image fullsize:(https://i.postimg.cc/Cxf30H09/IMG-20191013-103045966.jpg)(PostImages.org calls this style of link "Direct Image".)

Like Photobucket, PostImages.org also handles internally dealing with oversized images from modern cameras. No need to shrink photos when posting large images to forums.

Unlike Photobucket, PostImages.org does not plaster their logo / watermark over your images.  I have not seen any change made by PostImages.org to any photo that I have uploaded there (other than displayed image size changes.)
Title: Re: Velocipede
Post by: Steve Smith on November 26, 2019, 01:29:03 AM
Thank you very much, Graham. Sounds much better than Photobucket. 
Title: Re: Velocipede
Post by: Carl G. Soderstrom on November 26, 2019, 01:43:56 AM
If anyone is interested - last Saturday at a MRR swap meet I saw 2 Velocipede wheels for sale.
$500.00 per pair
Oak Wood spokes, iron tired & hubbed.
About 17 inches in dia. (all I had was a $ bill to measure with)
One inch bore (measured my marks at home)
One was keyed.

Mr Skelton is from Duluth but if there is interest and you think it is a decent price I might see him
at the next meet.
Or he might send a picture? If he still has them.
Title: Re: Velocipede
Post by: Bill Baskerville on November 26, 2019, 02:39:01 AM
If the powers to be (read BOD) would like a replica to a velocipede for our museum and if someone is interested in completing the kit started and gathering dust in Alice's attic I would be willing to pony up for some wheels.

First we need to approach the BOD to see if this fits their desires for our Museum.

Thoughts anyone? 
Title: Re: Velocipede
Post by: Mike Fox on November 26, 2019, 02:44:58 PM
Thank you very much, Graham. Sounds much better than Photobucket.
I made the switch to Postimage last year after a struggle with the bucket. So I have stopped paying for photobucket.
Postimage seems a bit easier once you figure it out..