W.W.&F. Discussion Forum

WW&F Railway Museum Discussion => Work and Events => Topic started by: Paul Crabb on February 24, 2019, 12:31:43 PM

Title: Coach 8 Seating
Post by: Paul Crabb on February 24, 2019, 12:31:43 PM
Not sure this is the correct place to post this observation and question. On both Feb 16 and 17, as a brakeman, I noticed that at all stops, as passengers boarded Coach 3 was always the first to fill up. I just wonder if that is because of the seats it has. Thus I wonder if any consideration has been given to installing seats like those in Coach 3 in Coach 8.
Title: Re: Coach 8 Seating
Post by: Wayne Laepple on February 24, 2019, 12:52:32 PM
When this car was at Edaville, did it have cushions on the seats?
Title: Re: Coach 8 Seating
Post by: John McNamara on February 24, 2019, 01:00:10 PM
I agree with the boarding passengers that Coach 3 is the far more inviting car. I anticipate that the forthcoming Coach 9's similar style will be met with similar enthusiasm. Coach 8 has its advantages, however. Passengers get to sit side-by-side or across the aisle from each other, an especially attractive feature for groups. Passengers encumbered by crutches, backpacks, child car seats, or other paraphernalia are much better off in Coach 8. Seating capacity is enhanced by variable width seating for variable width passengers. Perhaps padding to pamper pompous passengers' ponderous posteriors?  ::) That's a nice suggestion for ample alliteration, but doubtless a maintenance nightmare.
Title: Re: Coach 8 Seating
Post by: Bill Baskerville on February 24, 2019, 02:03:10 PM
Ah John, we miss you as our editor in chief.
Title: Re: Coach 8 Seating
Post by: Wayne Laepple on February 24, 2019, 05:00:48 PM
I would think that some sort of "industrial" mattress with a heavy naugahyde covering would be nice for the benches in coach 8, unless someone wants to manufacture nice slatted wooden benches with backs such as are in some of the Sandy River and B&SR coaches.
Title: Re: Coach 8 Seating
Post by: James Patten on February 24, 2019, 05:17:53 PM
Coach 8 when it was at Edaville had half regular seats (like with Coach 3) and half benches.  I've seen pictures from Edaville where the benches had cushions!  I think cushions would make the Coach 8 experience more comfortable.  The cushions are part of the reason that I like to use Coach 3 when I'm conducting.
Title: Re: Coach 8 Seating
Post by: John McNamara on February 24, 2019, 05:40:00 PM
To continue my P-alliteration from previous posts, perhaps we ponder pew pads?
Title: Re: Coach 8 Seating
Post by: Wayne Laepple on February 24, 2019, 05:55:40 PM
I was thinking of something like pew pads, but more robust. They would have to be impervious to dampness, insects, mice, etc. Back in the old days, cabooses had such pads on the seats and bunks.
Title: Re: Coach 8 Seating
Post by: John Kokas on February 24, 2019, 05:56:07 PM
Holy Moly Batman!  Pew pads in coach?  Would that make coach 8 a "holy roller"?   :o
Title: Re: Coach 8 Seating
Post by: Bill Reidy on February 24, 2019, 06:10:16 PM
If we used pew pads not impervious, they would soon become phew pads.
Title: Re: Coach 8 Seating
Post by: Carl G. Soderstrom on February 26, 2019, 02:25:11 AM
Could you consider carpet samples contributed by a Carpeting Contractor covering Coach 8's couch?

They are the correct size - might be gotten at no cost? - easy replaceable - and are softer than bare wood.

Several joined end to end would make a long runner.

Title: Re: Coach 8 Seating
Post by: Mike the Choochoo Nix on February 26, 2019, 10:31:43 AM
There is a company with a dealer in Minnesota I have purchased through the makes custom foam mattresses and pads. The one I bought was fabric covered but it I knew the length, width, and desired thickness , I could check on covering material and price. The one I bought was around $100.
Title: Re: Coach 8 Seating
Post by: Gordon Cook on February 26, 2019, 10:38:57 AM
One thing I have noticed is that in addition to the better seats, the passenger car trucks on 3 make for a much more comfortable experience. The other coaches have a pretty hard ride and the lack of seat cushions exaggerates that harshness, especially for those patrons with poorly padded posteriors.  ::)
Title: Re: Coach 8 Seating
Post by: Dwight Winkley on February 26, 2019, 12:00:00 PM
When the new flip over seat frames for new coach #9 ( a copy of #3) are cast. More frames should be cast for use in coach #8.
Title: Re: Coach 8 Seating
Post by: Ed Lecuyer on February 26, 2019, 12:33:47 PM
When the new flip over seat frames for new coach #9 ( a copy of #3) are cast. More frames should be cast for use in coach #8.

I agree. Although, I could be convinced that we should keep the bench-style seating in the Baggage/Handicap section of the car (possibly providing posterior pew-style padding for passengers.)
Title: Re: Coach 8 Seating
Post by: Mike Fox on February 26, 2019, 01:22:21 PM
Coach 8 is roomy with the seat arrangement it has. I rather like it. Seat cushions would be an improvement.
Title: Re: Coach 8 Seating
Post by: Wayne Laepple on February 26, 2019, 06:06:39 PM
I kinda like the Edaville layout as described above. Walkover seats on one side, bench on the other.
Title: Re: Coach 8 Seating
Post by: John Kokas on February 26, 2019, 07:31:58 PM
The real question is how was the car originally.  Now if it's an Edaville creation that's one thing, but if it was changed for Edaville, then it should be changed back.  I don't believe that our charter requires us to preserve Edaville.
Title: Re: Coach 8 Seating
Post by: Bill Reidy on February 26, 2019, 08:01:24 PM
The real question is how was the car originally.  Now if it's an Edaville creation that's one thing, but if it was changed for Edaville, then it should be changed back.  I don't believe that our charter requires us to preserve Edaville.

Coach 8 is an Edaville creation from 1985, believe it or not.  One of their last shop-built cars?  Not sure on the parts source Edaville used (trucks and other metal hardware, perhaps frame).  It was their coach 26.  I think our conversion to accommodate guests with wheelchairs has been inspired.

Coach 8 is roomy with the seat arrangement it has. I rather like it. Seat cushions would be an improvement.

For big events we do need the expanded seating bench cars like 8 provide to accommodate passengers, and I rather like 8 as it is as well.  Whether 8 continues in this configuration in the long term or not our board and shop crew will determine.  I'm guessing our Museum will at some point roster a complete passenger train set representative of the railway 100 years ago, which means no bench seats.  I don't know if 8 would play a role in that.

One thing I have noticed is that in addition to the better seats, the passenger car trucks on 3 make for a much more comfortable experience. The other coaches have a pretty hard ride and the lack of seat cushions exaggerates that harshness, especially for those patrons with poorly padded posteriors.  ::)

I have a well-padded posterior and have noticed the same!

possibly providing posterior pew-style padding for passengers.

Perfect.
Title: Re: Coach 8 Seating
Post by: Bob Holmes on February 26, 2019, 08:26:43 PM
What is the total length of the bench seats in #8?  In order to even begin to consider padded seats, that is a critical measurement to assess the costs of potential solutions.  Can someone measure that, or I will do it next week.

Bob
Title: Re: Coach 8 Seating
Post by: Brian Strait on February 26, 2019, 08:26:59 PM
Railroad rides rough on rumps can reduce rider retention resulting in rejected restorations.
Title: Re: Coach 8 Seating
Post by: Bill Baskerville on February 26, 2019, 08:56:09 PM
When the new flip over seat frames for new coach #9 ( a copy of #3) are cast. More frames should be cast for use in coach #8.

I agree. Although, I could be convinced that we should keep the bench-style seating in the Baggage/Handicap section of the car (possibly providing posterior pew-style padding for passengers.)
Don’t forget that there is a second door for the other side of coach 8 if we ever wanted to install it.
Title: Re: Coach 8 Seating
Post by: Wayne Laepple on February 26, 2019, 09:16:21 PM
I think Bill's point about the need for a higher capacity car is well-taken. However, I also believe that at minimum we should try to arrange for some sort of cushioning on the seats, and at maximum, the primitive benches now in the car should be replaced with benches replicating the seats in some of the SR&RL and B&SR cars. I suggested several years ago that the pair of Jackson & Sharp trucks we received from Edaville be placed under the car until needed elsewhere, but that idea went down in flames. It would have freed up a pair of freight car trucks for temporary use as shop trucks or permanent use on a new-built car of some type.
Title: Re: Coach 8 Seating
Post by: John Kokas on February 26, 2019, 09:49:19 PM
I can't remember where it is on the wish list, but I know there is a proposed budget item for creation of new J&S trucks for existing pax cars and future builds.  But I don't know where it stands currently.  Maybe we should ask MNG if there are any laying around.
Title: Re: Coach 8 Seating
Post by: Wayne Laepple on February 26, 2019, 10:20:12 PM
We had the journal boxes and springs cups cast at Cattail Foundry last year, and the equalizer bars were forged elsewhere. Springs, brake rigging and other components can be manufactured in-house. What we really need for new J&S trucks is wheels, about $16,000 worth. The new parts are for trucks for coach No. 9.
Title: Re: Coach 8 Seating
Post by: John Kokas on February 26, 2019, 10:25:24 PM
Sounds like we have a more pressing need before coach #9.
Title: Re: Coach 8 Seating
Post by: Robert Hale on February 27, 2019, 11:53:50 AM
The amount of puns in this thread is enough to bottle up and sell. Packaged popular puns pleasing plucky patrons. :o
Title: Re: Coach 8 Seating
Post by: John Kokas on February 27, 2019, 02:38:32 PM
How can one not be "punny" when referring to padded posteriors?  But seriously, one of the things that makes the forum fun to read is the punsters (in all their forms) on the various topics.  Being able to make light of one's challenges and/or failings keeps us humble and always trying to do better.  That translates into the prevailing attitude in the membership - humble and always trying to improve - although that may not necessarily apply to our puns.  But it is "pun" times on the forum that I fondly remember consummate punsters like Ira Scribner who have so colorfully graced this forum for many years.
Title: Re: Coach 8 Seating
Post by: Paul Crabb on February 27, 2019, 06:37:30 PM
While there are differing opinions/thoughts regarding installation of seats in coach 8, there seems to be much agreement that padding on the existing benches is desirable. Hopefully that can be addressed by the board and implemented. Here in RI there are a number of upholsters who make seat cushions for boats and could be considered as a source as boat cushions do need to withstand  the marine environment. I also would need measurements in order to get estimates.
Title: Re: Coach 8 Seating
Post by: Jeff Schumaker on February 28, 2019, 09:08:42 AM
While there are differing opinions/thoughts regarding installation of seats in coach 8, there seems to be much agreement that padding on the existing benches is desirable. Hopefully that can be addressed by the board and implemented. Here in RI there are a number of upholsters who make seat cushions for boats and could be considered as a source as boat cushions do need to withstand  the marine environment. I also would need measurements in order to get estimates.

It's funny you should mention boat cushions, Paul. I was told some time ago, that some of the cushions from the Kennebec Central cars ended up on private steam launches.

Jeff S.
Title: Re: Coach 8 Seating
Post by: Mike Arnold on February 28, 2019, 11:20:25 AM
What about marine grade covers for the pew pads? We have padding on outdoor seating on one of the dining yachts I work on and they are taken inside every night. When they get salt spray on them we just wipe them off. If they are permanently in the car they should be fine. Don’t use them on rainy days or Victorian Christmas and they would be fine.
Mike
Title: Re: Coach 8 Seating
Post by: Allan Fisher on February 28, 2019, 09:48:39 PM
All of this discussion forgets one fact. The cushions will have a habit of disappearing.

I can see it now - the Conductor is required to take an inventory after each trip, and fill out a report that all cushions are present. If they aren't, the conductor will have to come up with the funds to replace the missing cushions.

This may sound ridiculous, even if Mainers are probably among the most honest people anywhere, but I have been a member of churches which had cushions in a box at the rear of the church to be used on the hard pews, and many of them disappeared over the years and had to be replaced on a regular basis.
Title: Re: Coach 8 Seating
Post by: Ed Lecuyer on February 28, 2019, 09:54:27 PM
I think the cushions as envisioned would run the whole length of the bench. This is how I've seen "pew cushions" work at several churches; not a bunch of individual pillows - one per person.

As a larger cushion, it would be much more difficult to "walk away" with - not to mention of limited use outside of a long bench.
Title: Re: Coach 8 Seating
Post by: Wayne Laepple on February 28, 2019, 10:11:29 PM
I was thinking that it might be a good idea to put a wide strip of Velcro on the bottom of each cushion, to mate with a strip on the seat itself. That way the cushions would not tend to slide off. I have a sofa and a chair, both with Velcro, and it deters the grandkids from pulling the cushions off! I'd say make them about six feet long so they can be removed for periodic cleaning.
Title: Re: Coach 8 Seating
Post by: Paul Crabb on February 28, 2019, 10:34:39 PM
I had the same thought as Wayne. The cushions would need to be attached to the benches not only to keep them from disappearing but hold them in place against the movement of the train.
Title: Re: Coach 8 Seating
Post by: Gary Kraske on March 01, 2019, 02:01:50 AM
My thoughts,  cushion covering should consider at least the following attributes: temperature tolerance against degradation from -15 to + 120 degrees F; a method to secure to benches, i.e. ties of covering material; and ability to not stick to perspiring thighs, etc.  Agree that size to minimize departure of cushions is desirable.
Title: Re: Coach 8 Seating
Post by: Mike Fox on March 01, 2019, 06:48:38 AM
Simple screw eyes could be used every couple of feet where the seat meets the wall to tie the seat covers to. They would be out of the way incase the padding was removed.
Title: Re: Coach 8 Seating
Post by: Mike Arnold on March 04, 2019, 12:11:53 AM
How would cushions disappear? You would someone walking off the train with a cushion... it’s a shame people think different on their fellow man.
Mike
Title: Re: Coach 8 Seating
Post by: Gary Kraske on March 04, 2019, 12:59:20 AM
Souvenir hunters.
Title: Re: Coach 8 Seating
Post by: Wayne Laepple on March 04, 2019, 09:21:41 AM
Well, if the cushions are six or seven feet long, it will be hard for someone to hide one under their jacket. And an added benefit, if the sleeping spaces in Percival House are all taken, a few folks could sleep in the coach! Just remember to bring your mosquito netting!
Title: Re: Coach 8 Seating
Post by: Jason M Lamontagne on March 04, 2019, 01:08:27 PM
Offering some thoughts some of us have developed operationally here.

Generally, we prefer individual seating.  This enhances visitor experience and is generally in line with the two foot gauge travel experience (acknowledging existence of some cars with bench seating on the original two foot roads).

This also gives a clearer definition of capacity.  With defined capacity, we eliminate capacity variation and guessing games, and can offer a more consistent visitor experience.

It’s a decided shift away from “ferry boat” type service and toward experience-based service.

That said- we’ve talked of the need to retain some bench seating.  One thought was to put individual seating on the non-baggage door end of coach 8, while retaining bench seating on the baggage door end.  These are loose thoughts for now.

We certainly need cushions on all seats- very especially those bench seats which remain.

See ya
Jason
Title: Re: Coach 8 Seating
Post by: Wayne Laepple on March 04, 2019, 05:54:05 PM
Here's a thought. Since it will probably be some time before we get around to manufacturing new walkover seats for Coach 8, how about if we get cushions for it. Then, when the day comes that coach 8 receives new seats, the cushions could be repurposed for an excursion car.
Title: Re: Coach 8 Seating
Post by: John Kokas on March 04, 2019, 06:07:15 PM
Great idea Wayne!  Double bang for the buck.   :)
Title: Re: Coach 8 Seating
Post by: Paul Crabb on March 04, 2019, 09:41:53 PM
I also like Wayne's suggestion. Additionally in looking at the Maine Narrow Gauge site I see that they have cushions on their bench seats similar to coach 8. Perhaps we can inquire if any of their cushions have disappeared, as that has been expressed as a concern, and if they have a ready source for them.
Title: Re: Coach 8 Seating
Post by: John McNamara on March 09, 2019, 10:13:10 PM
Benches in the non-door part of the car are 196 inches long by 16 and 7/8 inches wide. There are holes in the floor indicating that this section of the car once had walkover seats. It probably will again.

In the part of the car where the door is,the short bench is 125 and 5/8 inches by 16 and 3/4 inches. The long bench on the non-door side is 225 and 1/2 inches by 16 and 7/8 inches.

Thanks to Rich Currie for his assistance.😉
Title: Re: Coach 8 Seating
Post by: Paul Crabb on March 27, 2019, 09:33:40 PM
I'm going to be contacting the local maker of boat cushions, who does do custom sizes for boats, to get a cost estimate. But is it intended that the other door will be installed in coach 8? If so cushions for the now non door side can be made to allow for future door installation.
Title: Re: Coach 8 Seating
Post by: Bob Holmes on March 27, 2019, 09:51:49 PM
Or just put cushions in the non-door end of the car...
Title: Re: Coach 8 Seating
Post by: John McNamara on March 27, 2019, 10:27:33 PM
Or just put cushions in the non-door end of the car...
The non-door end eventually gets walk-over seats.
Title: Re: Coach 8 Seating
Post by: Paul Crabb on March 29, 2019, 05:21:31 PM
Any idea when "eventually" is?
Title: Re: Coach 8 Seating
Post by: James Patten on March 29, 2019, 05:39:17 PM
No current plans to put in walk-overs.  We may make extras when we make the seats for Coach 9, which would be for Coach 8.
Title: Re: Coach 8 Seating
Post by: Bob Holmes on March 29, 2019, 07:32:13 PM
Cushions WAY before walkover seats...they may be worn out by then anyway.