W.W.&F. Discussion Forum

WW&F Railway Museum Discussion => Work and Events => Topic started by: Bill Baskerville on April 18, 2017, 07:14:02 PM

Title: Coach 9 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Bill Baskerville on April 18, 2017, 07:14:02 PM
I'm here for two weeks with a few goals in mind:

Help Eric with documentation for new coach #9
Disassemble a seat from #3 to use it to create patterns for Coach 9 seats

Spring is starting to spring here in Maine.  I see reddish buds on maple trees. 



Harold, Eric,

If either of you are around the SWW, and if you have gotten the details worked out, perhaps you could brief me on the door and window requirements for coach 9 so the Southern Narrow Gauge Door and Window Shop can do some advance fabrication planning.

That is unless there is a more pressing need for other items.

Bill

Bill,

We have been looking at the windows in detail.  (Maybe this should be moved to new coach thread).  We believe that the only original window is in the saloon (bathroom).  It has details that none of the other windows have.  I have measured all the critical parts, and will make a drawing with all the joinery.  They are pretty straightforward.  Mahogany for the wood, minimal decorative details.

I also have measured the end doors.  Still need to pull and measure a clerestory window.

Harold,

Thanks for the info, I didn't realize the coach 3 windows were not original.  I also forgot all about the clerestory windows. 

Is not having Mahogany a deal killer?  I haven't searched for a source of Mahogany.

Bill
Title: Re: Coach 9 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Mike Fox on April 18, 2017, 08:18:54 PM
Bill,
When you drop the doors for coach 8, you can stop in the Portland area and get some rough Mahogany. I forget the name of the company, but have heard the commercial on the radio several times. "The wood of the world is available at"...
Title: Re: Coach 9 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Mike Fox on April 18, 2017, 08:23:45 PM
Downes & Reader, Gorham, Me.
Title: Re: Coach 9 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Steve Zuppa on April 18, 2017, 08:24:20 PM
IIRC, according to Jason's research, the interior trim in coach 3 that we always thought was mahogany, was oak. If that's the case, trim supplies should be readily available.
Title: Re: Coach 9 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Philip Marshall on April 18, 2017, 10:02:32 PM
It should be pretty simple to differentiate oak from mahogany. Oak is a ring-porous wood with really large and dramatic rays (which give quarter-sawn oak its character), whereas mahogany is a diffuse-porous wood with very fine rays -- somewhat resembling birch. (In fact, 19th-century furniture makers would sometimes stain birch to make it look like mahogany.) If possible, look for end grain on the inside of a joint where it's not covered by varnish.
Title: Re: Coach 9 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Jason M Lamontagne on April 18, 2017, 11:04:38 PM
Eric and Harold have a thorough handle on the wood species we need.

What I thought was mahogany trim is mostly oak, hence Steve Zuppa's statements.  Actually, Eric verified that.

Since then, Eric has discovered that the window sills are actually mahogany.

Harold has found the only surviving original window and confirmed that it is mahogony.  Doors are oak.

In short- the decorative woods appear to all be oak.  Mahogany was chosen in a couple places where dimensional stability was desired. 

See ya
Jason
Title: Re: Coach 9 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Harold Downey on April 18, 2017, 11:11:13 PM
Inside trim is all oak.  Builder photos from archives confirm it was always oak.  The end doors are 100% oak currently, and it is quartersawn with visible rays.   I think it is important to stick with quartersawn oak for new doors, to assure stability -- resistance to warping. 

Most of the current windows are mahogany, or at least a similar tropical wood.  The single original window is also mahogany.  This wood is used for stability in a very tough application, not to match the rest of the oak trim.    At the time this coach was built, even foundry patterns used mahogany.    The window frames are 11/16" thick, not very substantial. 

I am sure mahogany or an equivalent is available at most hardwood suppliers.  I have seen it in Austin.   

Harold. 
Title: Re: Coach 9 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Bill Baskerville on April 19, 2017, 01:37:08 AM
All,

Thanks for the information.

I live in a small community with limited shopping sources unless I go to Richmond about 70 miles away.  However, I have found both Honduras and African Mahogany in several sizes about 20 miles from here, the 'SNGD&WS'.  Do we care which source.  The same sizes are not necessarily available in both sources.

Once I have the dimensions of the necessary lumber I will see what I can round up.  I have been making doors and coach 8 windows out of red oak.  Will that work for the doors on coach 9?

Bill
Title: Re: Coach 9 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Bill Baskerville on April 19, 2017, 04:03:47 AM
Harold, Ed,

With apologies for being scattered, I will also need to know if there is any special glass in the clerestory window.  I have been using either 1/8" or 3/16" clear tempered glass for the windows and doors.  I doubt they had tempered glass then, but it may be a good idea to use it now.

Bill
Title: Re: Coach 9 - Official Work Thread
Post by: John McNamara on April 19, 2017, 04:11:20 AM
On the subject of clerestory glass, do we know if the WW&F used clear glass, frosted glass, or etched glass?

-John M
Title: Re: Coach 9 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Philip Marshall on April 19, 2017, 05:06:32 AM
I have found both Honduras and African Mahogany...Do we care which source.  The same sizes are not necessarily available in both sources.

I imagine the mahogany in coach 3 is West Indian or "Cuban" mahogany (Swietenia mahagoni), but that species is now so rare due to historical exploitation that it's unavailable as lumber. Honduras mahogany (Swietenia macrophylla) would be a good match, even if it's not exactly the same wood. I don't know if African mahogany (Khaya senegalensis) was even commercially available in the US in the 1890s, though it was already being exported to Europe by that time, apparently.
Title: Re: Coach 9 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Jason M Lamontagne on April 19, 2017, 10:29:52 AM
Hi Bill,

The lower window glass needs to be safety glass; we're moving all window glass to safety glass.

The clerestory windows are particularly special- stamped, colored glass.  I'm certain that will be a special sub-project to find a supplier or reproduction method.

We'd discussed the possibility of your making windows and doors for coach 9; our initial thought was frames only- though that could still be refined.  Maybe the safety glass could make the trip fine, but the clerestory windows have glass added in maine. 

The dimensions and joinery details must be very tightly controlled with these.  Harold is making drawings which match the originals, but there won't be freedom in developing details like on coach 8.

We look forward to discussing fine details when you get here for SWW.  Be sure to seek out Eric (Harold will be here till the Wednesday prior).

See ya
Jason
Title: Re: Coach 9 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Bill Baskerville on April 19, 2017, 12:26:13 PM
Jason,

Thanks for the vote of confidence.  I am aware that the coach 9 windows and doors will have to be historically correct reproductions which is why I want to gather as much information as I can. 

The half a dozen coach 8 windows I made a few years ago traveled inside the little car with the glass already mounted.  If I use the larger car and start early I can bring the coach 9 windows inside the car over a couple of work weekends and/or my summer trip.  The doors may be narrow enough that I can also bring them inside the larger car. 

The larger coach 8 doors I will bring on a trailer with the glass unmounted, inside the car.

The Southern Narrow Gauge Door and Window Shop is at your disposal.

Bill
Title: Re: Coach 9 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Benjamin Campbell on April 19, 2017, 10:19:50 PM
Will we replicate a working toilet despite the fact that we can’t use it? Will we include a coal stove? If so – do we know what model was original to the prototype?
Title: Re: Coach 9 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Jason M Lamontagne on April 19, 2017, 10:26:39 PM
Yes and yes- we'd really like to install a water-heater type stove.  While it's clear they were used on the SR&RL, it's not clear whether the WW&F did.

It does appear that coaches 2 and 3 had different stoves, at least at different stages of life.

See ya
Jason
Title: Re: Coach 9 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Carl Soderstrom on April 20, 2017, 06:10:00 AM
Check out Ultimate Restorations show on the Badger fish car

http://www.ultimaterestorations.com/badger-2/

As I remember the restorer for Mid Continent RR Museum found someone to make
the special patterned glass for the clerestory.
Might be worth contacting them if you do not have a local source.

http://www.midcontinent.org/equipment-roster/wooden-passenger-cars/wisconsin-fish-commission-2/

Avalon Rail inc. may have done / did the work.


A side point of interest
https://vimeo.com/112666164
Title: Re: Coach 9 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Dave Crow on April 20, 2017, 12:19:56 PM
Many of the pressed glass patterns can be sourced through stained glass supply houses; older commercial glass houses also have a lot of specialty glass options available due to old home restorations and other architectural demands.  Baltimore Streetcar Museum has used Chaudron Glass for years; I remember looking through books of glass samples when researching "ripple" glass for one of the streetcar restorations.

Dave Crow
Title: Re: Coach 9 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Harold Downey on May 10, 2017, 02:45:15 PM
I am working on seat reproductions for coach 9.  I have one of the seats from coach 3 in my shop, and I am figuring out, among other things, how to make patterns to reproduce it.

One of the first things I am doing, before stripping all the paint, is to determine what the original color of the seat frame may have been.  They are currently black.

I have taken paint chip samples from three of the inner areas, potted and polished them to determine the paint layers.  (Inside of the outer frame, inside of the window side frame, and the window side of the walkover mechanism.)

The results are surprising.  I am seeing unusual colors.  But I don't know if the frames have ever been stripped to bare metal and repainted during their history, nor do I know what primers may have been used  that may explain the colors I am seeing.

Rather than reveal what I have so far, I will first ask the community if anyone knows of historical references to the seat frame color.   

The black and white builders photo from the Delaware public archives shows the seat frames to be quite bright, or very reflective.  The seat arms definitely have some remaining nickel plating, but they are a separate part. 

The seats are made by Hale & Kilburn of Philadelphia.  They are not the same seat that is being reproduced by Strasburg RR.  It is a specific model for narrow gauge cars.
Title: Re: Coach 9 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Dave Crow on May 10, 2017, 04:53:40 PM
Do we happen to have a copy of the order that was placed with Jackson & Sharp for Coaches 2 & 3?  Possibly the colors for everything would be on either the order itself or on the order confirmation from J&S?

Just a thought.

Dave Crow
Title: Re: Coach 9 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Stephen Piwowarski on May 13, 2017, 04:45:30 PM
I was just taking a look at #3's builders photo. I had no idea that the lettering and numbering on the car sides were originally shadow lettered. How cool!

Also, if we don't have them, some order books for Jackson and Sharp are available from the Smithsonian.

http://sova.si.edu/record/NMAH.AC.0156#summary (http://sova.si.edu/record/NMAH.AC.0156#summary)

There are also some job books at the Hagley Museum in Wilmington in addition to photos there and in the state archives.

If there is something to gain from it, I'm up for a little trip for researches sake.

Steve
Title: Re: Coach 9 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Eric Schade on May 15, 2017, 03:08:54 PM
I did some research and found some glass for the clerestory.  http://www.wissmachglass.com/textures.html (http://www.wissmachglass.com/textures.html) scroll down to "Florentine 01"  this stuff comes in different colors.  if it is not an exact replacement only a skilled eye can tell without them being side by side.  If we send them an original piece of glass they can match the color.
Title: Re: Coach 9 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Brendan Barry on May 17, 2017, 11:34:44 PM
Glass samples for the clerestory windows. I believe that is an original window in Eric's left hand and between the two pieces of glass in the second picture.

(http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s5/bbarry74/bbarry74011/IMG_0027.jpg)

(http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s5/bbarry74/bbarry74011/IMG_0028.jpg)
Title: Re: Coach 9 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Jeff Schumaker on May 18, 2017, 01:38:46 PM
The left hand pattern looks to be a match.

Jeff S.
Title: Re: Coach 9 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Wayne Laepple on May 18, 2017, 08:12:02 PM
My own opinion, based on cars of a similar age at the Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania, is that both the glass in the center is not original. That type of glass was made in a press, which put the design in the glass while it was still hot. The sample on the right is more appropriate to the period.
Title: Re: Coach 9 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Jason M Lamontagne on May 18, 2017, 11:43:08 PM
Given the ornateness of the car as built, and the constant dumbing down of the niceties thereafter, we've got every reason to believe the center piece, the long skinny one which we got from the car, is original.  There are about 14 or 15 like it in the car; the others are clear plain panes, or plastic.  

Looking at the interior builders photo on the Delaware public archives, zooming in on those windows, shows a pattern.  Obviously color and the exact pattern can't be discerned, but what circumstantial evidence we have supports our belief.  

I presume they were made by hot stamping colored glass in 1894, just as now.

See ya
Jason
Title: Re: Coach 9 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Eric Schade on May 25, 2017, 02:00:19 AM
I got some more samples from the glass manufacturer and we are getting VERY close to the original color.  The "Florentine" texture is also very close. The only noticeable difference seems to be that the new stuff has a button in the center of each rosette while the original does not.  The rosettes are nearly the same size and character.  I am getting two more color samples and should be really close.  I'll get some prices and replace the plastic panels in coach 3 to see how it looks.
Title: Re: Coach 9 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Ted Miles on June 07, 2017, 02:05:22 AM
Folks,
         I hope this is the right place to ask this question. If not; maybe someone can more it?

I heard that a set of Jackson & Sharp passenger trucks are at the WW&F Museum.

Why not use them under the new #9? The original passenger car was a J&S car. Just the wheel sets for a pair of new trucks will run into a lot of money. Maybe it is better to spend the money on the lumber.

Ted Miles, WW&F Member
Title: Re: Coach 9 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Stephen Piwowarski on June 07, 2017, 03:59:53 AM
Ted,

Perhaps I can offer a partial response to your query. While they are J&S trucks (actualy one is, at least in part, and Edaville reporduction), they are not the same as the trucks under Coach 3. So, even though they are J&S, they would not be the appropriate trucks for that car.

Steve
Title: Re: Coach 9 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Wayne Laepple on June 07, 2017, 08:50:03 PM
Well, if that's the case.... If the Edaville "J&S" trucks are not going to be used under the new coach, they should be put under combine 8. Then the freight car trucks currently under combine 8 can be used under whatever the next freight car is.
Title: Re: Coach 9 - Official Work Thread
Post by: James Patten on June 07, 2017, 09:56:46 PM
There's some sort of truck swap that will happen, or maybe it's just a wheel swap, or maybe wheels stay with cars and the truck bodies gets swapped.  We went over it at the last board meeting and I didn't really get what was going to happen.
Title: Re: Coach 9 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Jason M Lamontagne on June 07, 2017, 11:19:00 PM
There is a tentative arrangement to utilize the existing J&S trucks and build new, appropriate trucks for coach 9.  There's still some details to settle- so for now I'll post more details in the members only section.

See ya
Jason
Title: Re: Coach 9 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Brendan Barry on August 10, 2017, 04:17:15 AM
The door post/trim on coach 3 sanded down to the original factory paint.

(http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s5/bbarry74/bbarry74011/IMG_5469.jpg)
Title: Re: Coach 9 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Philip Marshall on August 10, 2017, 07:02:51 AM
Very neat picture! The thin layer of Edaville yellow really stands out.

So was the original color really brown, or perhaps maroon "lake" ?
Title: Re: Coach 9 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Eric Schade on August 10, 2017, 08:02:53 PM
we held up color chips to see what we were looking at. of the chips we had the "Kilz" color LM 100 (b3) "Incence Stick" looks really close -- think UPS truck Brown. which is "Pullman Brown" according to Google.

I also spent some time sifting through Jackson and Sharp images and found some good shots of similar cars.  This one shows the striping really well. http://delaware.contentdm.oclc.org/cdm/singleitem/collection/p15323coll6/id/3733/rec/1 (http://delaware.contentdm.oclc.org/cdm/singleitem/collection/p15323coll6/id/3733/rec/1)
(http://delaware.contentdm.oclc.org/utils/ajaxhelper/?CISOROOT=p15323coll6&CISOPTR=3733&action-2&DMSCALE=10&DMWIDTH=512&DMHEIGHT=478&DMX=0&DMY=0&DMTEXT=&DMROTATE=0)
Title: Re: Coach 9 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Bob Holmes on August 11, 2017, 12:28:17 AM
So Eric, do you want to paint your new model coach in "WW&F Brown" as a test of what it would look like on the prototype?...
Title: Re: Coach 9 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Eric Schade on August 11, 2017, 01:11:38 AM
Nope  but haw about Wiscasset and Quebec brown!
Title: Re: Coach 9 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Alex Harvilchuck on September 11, 2017, 04:34:12 PM
[I would like more information regarding the Coach 9 cloning project] because I own an artisan woodworking/cabinetry shop.

Equipment-wise I seem to gravitate towards mid-century Rockwell and Delta, with a smattering of Acme, Poitras, Kuster Woodworks, Handy, Crouch, Sand-Rite Mfg., Wetzler, Beach Mfg., Boice Crane, Crescent, Newton, Dake-Johnson, Stanley, GE, Van Norman, and anything else I may have forgotten. I do only North American manufacturers unless I have no choice. I don't like plastic machines, only machines made of materials directly on, or alloyed from, elements on the periodic table.
Let me know some details what you need for Coach 9 when you get a chance. Maybe I can help to fab up some sub-assemblies when there is some slack time in the shop as an in-kind donation.