W.W.&F. Discussion Forum

WW&F Railway Museum Discussion => Work and Events => Topic started by: Robert Hale on January 06, 2017, 03:00:44 PM

Title: What If? Design Project: 1925-1940 2ft Diesel
Post by: Robert Hale on January 06, 2017, 03:00:44 PM
I thought that I could set a few personal goals that involves the museum this year and one is simple; become a lifetime member. The other is much more complex but I have been doing research for the last year as to what/how to accomplish this goal. I will try to start the drawings for W.W.&F. #s 54 & 55. I have been looking at the 1925-1940 era industrial switcher designs and trying to hypothesis what the RR would have done to have built or home-built for a possible transition/mixed use of non-steam locomotives if the RR lasted past 1933. Granted, the use of very common current day engines/drive train would be used to keep running costs down, but the sheet metal body would reflect the era's styling cues and operating routines. I know many might be reluctant to have such locomotives at all, but I see it as an opportunity to do something for the long term life of the RR/museum and keep it inline with a "what if" timeline, as well as providing a locomotive the is as heavy as the steam locomotives to serve as back-up power and use for work trains to save wear and tear on the more valuable locomotives in the collection. Please feel free to ask me anything, I am still drawing up the basics of the specifications. Also, I don't want to step on any toes by posting this, so if it is a bad idea or not welcome please let me know.
Rob
Title: Re: What If? Design Project: 1925-1940 2ft Diesel
Post by: Robert Hale on January 29, 2018, 03:40:52 PM
Update: #54 & #55
I have decided on the gearbox/drive train layout, it will be similar to the Baldwin 600cm trench locomotive 0-4-0 gas-mechanical from WWI, just with it being double ended. Still researching off the shelf gears/bearings to minimize costs. Also developing the centralized control stand for bi-directional use. Will be diesel powered with common power plants. That is all.

Rob
Title: Re: What If? Design Project: 1925-1940 2ft Diesel
Post by: Bernie Perch on January 29, 2018, 11:09:13 PM
Rob,

Why don't you study what the Mount Washington Cog Railway used to make their diesel-hydraulic locomotives?  I believe they used a standard power unit with hydraulic motors.  I know it was unsuccessful on the Southern Pacific and Rio Grande for various reasons, but on a small road like the WW&F it may be the simplest way to go.  I am not a mechanic, so this is just a "from the hip" suggestion.

As far as the aesthetics of the locomotive, make it look good . Design it with AAR type trucks with drop equalizers like passenger car trucks similar to  those used on road switchers.  The Durango & Silverton made a beautiful self propelled car and put it on what I feel was a very cobbled looking front truck made from an industrial locomotive.  It looked terrible.  Home made locomotives tend to look cobbled up.  Try to avoid that.

Bernie
Title: Re: What If? Design Project: 1925-1940 2ft Diesel
Post by: John Kokas on January 30, 2018, 12:00:10 AM
I would suggest looking at a center-cab design with two engines.  Each one connected directly to its end truck.  The one advantage is if you have a road failure of an engine, you have the remaining one to get you home.  Think of a scaled down GE 44 tonner.
Title: Re: What If? Design Project: 1925-1940 2ft Diesel
Post by: Robert Hale on January 30, 2018, 05:04:32 PM
I would suggest looking at a center-cab design with two engines.  Each one connected directly to its end truck.  The one advantage is if you have a road failure of an engine, you have the remaining one to get you home.  Think of a scaled down GE 44 tonner.
That is the idea. It would be a period correct (except for the power plant) "kitbashed" locomotive using surplus chassis from WWI, in theory (like a what if). Outside some custom shafts/gearboxes everything will be sourced from the light/medium truck industry to keep costs down and have a good supply of spares.
I'm going to hit this hard this year, getting my CAD program up and running since most of my VA stuff has closed out now. I have to call some vendors and contact some youtubers to get input into the gearboxes.

Rob
Title: Re: What If? Design Project: 1925-1940 2ft Diesel
Post by: Robert Hale on January 30, 2018, 05:22:07 PM
Rob,

Why don't you study what the Mount Washington Cog Railway used to make their diesel-hydraulic locomotives?  I believe they used a standard power unit with hydraulic motors.  I know it was unsuccessful on the Southern Pacific and Rio Grande for various reasons, but on a small road like the WW&F it may be the simplest way to go.  I am not a mechanic, so this is just a "from the hip" suggestion.

As far as the aesthetics of the locomotive, make it look good . Design it with AAR type trucks with drop equalizers like passenger car trucks similar to  those used on road switchers.  The Durango & Silverton made a beautiful self propelled car and put it on what I feel was a very cobbled looking front truck made from an industrial locomotive.  It looked terrible.  Home made locomotives tend to look cobbled up.  Try to avoid that.

Bernie

I thought of that, but there are allot of issues with Diesel-hydraulic (pump/lines/motors/cooling/costs) and it would not be a period correct design. Using a mechanical design from the period of the early 1900's with a minor modification (using an automatic transmission/diesel engine) you could have a loco with good power and speed.
My goals are: ease of maintenance. That means common filters, belts, parts, spares, controls (pneumatic) with a minimum amount of custom parts (machined/cast/fabbed). I think the final weight might be in the 20-24k range. I thought it could be a viable solution for a robust locomotive for the RR for when steam is not running and save some wear/tear on #52, but look and feel period correct for the size of the line. More to follow.

Rob
Title: Re: What If? Design Project: 1925-1940 2ft Diesel
Post by: Mike the Choochoo Nix on January 31, 2018, 01:21:24 AM
What are you using for wheels?
Title: Re: What If? Design Project: 1925-1940 2ft Diesel
Post by: Jason M Lamontagne on January 31, 2018, 02:09:17 AM
Hi Robert,

Am I clear in understanding that the extent of your project, at least at present, is to prepare drawings?  Anything more would require the board to review the plans and approve the project, even if materials and labor are donated, to ensure the resulting machine would be appropriate.  That said, the mental exercise your proposing, along with the resulting plans, sounds like an interesting project.

I can confirm that we are growing more interested in a 2-truck diesel locomotive.  52 is an industrial machine designed for slow speed and is ill suited for our main line use.  Above 6 or 8 MPH it’s hard on itself and track.  It (52) is also the reason we’re so restrictive on pony plow and snow flanger design.  Carpenter steel called them “dinky’s.”  They’re not meant for what the WW&F is all about.

We most likely would not build a 2 truck diesel locomotive from scratch; it’s too far outside of our mission to devote that many resources.  We’d likely try to locate an existing machine which requires rebuilding, in order to keep costs down.  We’ve thought of some alternatives including the use of two Plymouth dinky carcasses.

That said, if you develop some designs and drawings, it’d be great to see them!

Some helpful design hints: keep most weight on the chassis and off the truck frames.  Trucks should be as light as possible.  Prime movers should be standardized; either gen-sets or hydraulic power units depending on the transmission of choice.  Center cab with dual prime movers preferable.

  If we used dinky carcasses, we’d couple the two chassis together, as if double heading two 52’s, put floating center pivots on, a girder frame atop those- then two hydraulic power packs or gensets around a center cab.  Plymouth chassis would retain their final chain drive, and be powered by hydraulic or electric motors. Plymouth engine cowling and radiators used as is; new cab which would allow some custom styling. 

We’d also thought of regauging a 3-foot center cab, or semi-scratch building from a standard gauge carcass. 

When will this happen?  We have plenty of someday projects; it’s healthy to aspire.

See ya
Jason
Title: Re: What If? Design Project: 1925-1940 2ft Diesel
Post by: Robert Hale on January 31, 2018, 12:41:38 PM
Yes, I hope to have drawings sometime soon. Here is a link for some good photos of the Baldwin gas-mechanical I am basing the truck design off of. My idea is a blend of this locomotive and a Garrett steam locomotive. Everything that powers the unit except for the gearboxes, rods, wheels, counter weights, truck frames and brake rigging will be on the frame. That means cab, hoods, engines/transmissions, cooling systems, fuel tank(s), air tanks, batteries ect.
The only differences I plan between #53 and #54 is the engines. #53 will have the 6BT (12 valve with the non-computer fuel control) with single exhaust (turbo) and #54 will have the 6B with 6 individual stacks (non-turbo). I am trying to find out about the 45RLE transmissions if they have an aftermarket manual valve body for shifting to delete the computer and delete the reverse gear (reversing will be done in the truck gearboxes). Also, they do make larger capacity pans and the trans coolers will most likely triple the transmission fluid capacity.
I started to look at frame materials in the area of 7"x3" box 3/8" thick, 7/8" plate for frame gussets, and 1 3/4" plate for the truck frames. Handrails would be 7/8" rod stock. More to come.

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/82183-baldwin-gas-mechanicalmoelwyn-photos/


Rob
Title: Re: What If? Design Project: 1925-1940 2ft Diesel
Post by: Robert Hale on January 31, 2018, 01:09:23 PM
What are you using for wheels?

Machined centers with tyres. Not sure of the size yet. Tapered roller bearings on the axles.

Rob
Title: Re: What If? Design Project: 1925-1940 2ft Diesel
Post by: Bernie Perch on January 31, 2018, 01:51:49 PM
Rob,

If you are thinking of wheel centers with spokes, I made patterns for two sizes which are currently stored at the railroad.  Depending on the thickness of the tire or how much is machined off the center, you could go from a 18" wheel (like on the Model T railcar) to a 20" wheel (like on #11's lead wheel assembly), or even more with thicker tires.  With the larger center you could start with about a 31" wheel or larger depending again on the thickness of the tire.  I don't know if you are thinking this large a wheel, but it is remotely possible.  At this point I wouldn't offer making a mid size pattern because of the many pattern projects I have to complete and based on #11's time line, this project would be ten years away before it was physical consummated.

If you are thinking side rods and cranks with the larger wheel center, the patterns for the cranks are also made and in storage.

I have seen mine locomotives where the traction motor was mounted longitudinally between the axles with worm gears.  You could possibly use truck differentials with some of the gears removed for this.

Bernie
Title: Re: Personal goals for 2017
Post by: Robert Hale on January 31, 2018, 02:35:02 PM
Rob,

If you are thinking of wheel centers with spokes, I made patterns for two sizes which are currently stored at the railroad.  Depending on the thickness of the tire or how much is machined off the center, you could go from a 18" wheel (like on the Model T railcar) to a 20" wheel (like on #11's lead wheel assembly), or even more with thicker tires.  With the larger center you could start with about a 31" wheel or larger depending again on the thickness of the tire.  I don't know if you are thinking this large a wheel, but it is remotely possible.  At this point I wouldn't offer making a mid size pattern because of the many pattern projects I have to complete and based on #11's time line, this project would be ten years away before it was physical consummated.

If you are thinking side rods and cranks with the larger wheel center, the patterns for the cranks are also made and in storage.

I have seen mine locomotives where the traction motor was mounted longitudinally between the axles with worn (sp?) gears.  You could possibly use truck differentials with some of the gears removed for this.

Bernie

The gearbox design will operate in the same fashion as an outboard motor lower end; Forward/reverse/neutral. The gears will come from a Dana 80, two ring gears and one pinion 6:1 ratio. The outboard gears going to the lower shaft driving the side rods will be from the 2.5 ton Rockwell axle bull gear (4 per box). All fitted with tapered roller bearings. Short driveshaft to the transmission. If patterns are already made for counter weights and wheel centers, that does save allot of time. I will be emailing someone that could machine the gear box shafts and axles and contribute to their youtube channel content.
I'm trying to find the simplest solution to drive the wheels, and thus far this is the simplest I could come up with. It keeps the axles simple, the truck frames simple, the gearbox is accessible for oil changes, the transmission/engine pans are accessible for maintenance. It will also include two cast iron air compressors (one per engine) for the shifting/braking system. As far as vacuum brakes, I would need someone's help with that since I am not familiar with them.

Rob 

Edit: Thanks for merging the topics.
Title: Re: What If? Design Project: 1925-1940 2ft Diesel
Post by: Ed Lecuyer on January 31, 2018, 02:37:42 PM
[Moderator's Note]
I re-titled this thread to reflect the topic at hand. I also moved it into the Museum discussion area, rather than the section reserved for non museum-specific topics.

That said,
I like the idea. The photos of the WWI era Baldwin the design is based upon show a really neat looking locomotive. Jason would be sure to love it - it is a Baldwin after all!
Title: Re: What If? Design Project: 1925-1940 2ft Diesel
Post by: Robert Hale on January 31, 2018, 03:43:34 PM
[Moderator's Note]
I re-titled this thread to reflect the topic at hand. I also moved it into the Museum discussion area, rather than the section reserved for non museum-specific topics.

That said,
I like the idea. The photos of the WWI era Baldwin the design is based upon show a really neat looking locomotive. Jason would be sure to love it - it is a Baldwin after all!

Yes, that is why I chose that set-up. Simple, period correct. Also thanks for merging the topics. Now that I have a clearer picture moving forward in my life (VA appointments done) this is giving me motivation to get the drawings done.

Rob
Title: Re: What If? Design Project: 1925-1940 2ft Diesel
Post by: Roger Cole on January 31, 2018, 06:01:31 PM
Isn't there the remains of a 2-foot narrow gauge diesel in Portland.  I think it is being used as a parts source for Edaville's two other diesels from the same batch created by GE for the Whitin Machine Works.  It might be cheaper and easier to resurrect that hulk than build a totally new engine.
Title: Re: What If? Design Project: 1925-1940 2ft Diesel
Post by: Jason M Lamontagne on January 31, 2018, 06:28:39 PM
Well- to be clear- I’m not a diesel fan, and don’t much care for the “what if” exercise.  However we need a main line diesel, out of necessity.

I want to reiterate- we likely will not build from scratch.  I don’t mind the design-from-scratch drawings which Robert intends to propose, as they’ll likely feed our net result.  I suggest, Robert, that you not worry too deeply about fine design details- esp mechanical- until you produce and aire a concept drawing.  As mentioned, it’ll probably morph a lot during the review process.

I’d like to see the Plymouth dinky idea drawn up- no time myself.

The third GE diesel at MNG is gone to another home, I believe.

See ya
Jason
Title: Re: What If? Design Project: 1925-1940 2ft Diesel
Post by: Mark Spremulli on January 31, 2018, 10:08:31 PM
Jason the wrecked diesel is at Edaville last I knew
Title: Re: What If? Design Project: 1925-1940 2ft Diesel
Post by: Bill Piche on January 31, 2018, 10:19:12 PM
Diesel 3\5 was sold back to Edaville a few years ago as part of MNG's effort to divest equipment that wasn't salvageable by the museum itself. This was done before they had to transfer ownership of the boxcars that are now in WW&F's and Boothbay's hands.

There wasn't much left except the frame. The prime mover and generator were shot. I believe that the traction motors were (if still in the wheel sets) shot. The wheels needed turning, and the cab was obviously crumpled and all the electrics long since gutted. I am unaware of it's disposition since returning to Edaville, but I wouldn't put it past them to have it rebuilt at some point to supply more power to backup the #2 and the other assorted critters.
Title: Re: What If? Design Project: 1925-1940 2ft Diesel
Post by: Murphy Jenkins on February 01, 2018, 03:58:50 PM
In my personal opinion, If you wanted to go with an early diesel/gas mechanical design, I think a replica WWI Baldwin 50HP loco-tractor would be a great choice. These locomotives were sold all over the world after the war, and I'm honestly suprised that the Maine 2 footers never got any war surplus equipment. The locomotive could also be used to tell the story of trench railways, and their importance in the First World War.

Murphy Jenkins
Conductor A&M RR
Owner Frisco & Cherokee 2ft Gauge
Title: Re: What If? Design Project: 1925-1940 2ft Diesel
Post by: Wayne Laepple on February 01, 2018, 04:19:06 PM
While the Baldwin trench locomotives are cool in their own right, they would not solve the problem at the WW&F. What is needed is a locomotive with both power and speed, to allow it to be used to rescue a train and bring it home. It might be worthwhile to take a look at some version of the diesel locomotives manufactured in Australia for use on the still-extensive sugar cane network in Queensland. Using already-proven and functional mechanical designs, the sheet metal surrounding it could be customized to look like a 1930's gasoline or diesel unit.
Title: Re: What If? Design Project: 1925-1940 2ft Diesel
Post by: James Patten on February 01, 2018, 05:11:36 PM
Some of those Queensland sugar cane engines are really beefy for two foot gauge.  I was thinking we should try to get one used - but suspect that anything the plantations are parting with are things that have been beat down pretty well.
Title: Re: What If? Design Project: 1925-1940 2ft Diesel
Post by: Robert Hale on February 01, 2018, 06:29:07 PM
While the Baldwin trench locomotives are cool in their own right, they would not solve the problem at the WW&F. What is needed is a locomotive with both power and speed, to allow it to be used to rescue a train and bring it home. It might be worthwhile to take a look at some version of the diesel locomotives manufactured in Australia for use on the still-extensive sugar cane network in Queensland. Using already-proven and functional mechanical designs, the sheet metal surrounding it could be customized to look like a 1930's gasoline or diesel unit.

If the museum needs such a locomotive then the South African GE U8 locomotives would fit the bill. Diesel electric with CAT 3208 power plants.
I'll do my best to present the my best design using modern power train components from the light/medium duty trucks of the day with a period correct design for the final drive (with modern parts) and keeping with the 1920-30s styling. The units would be scratch-built using laser/water CNC cut plate, rectangle tube frames, standard wiring, pneumatic brakes and controls, cab heater with a full enclosed cab.

Rob
Title: Re: What If? Design Project: 1925-1940 2ft Diesel
Post by: Wayne Laepple on February 01, 2018, 06:55:13 PM
South African GE U8: way too heavy, way too wide. I was suggesting something along the lines of the attached photo.
Title: Re: What If? Design Project: 1925-1940 2ft Diesel
Post by: Robert Hale on February 01, 2018, 07:09:43 PM
South African GE U8: way too heavy, way too wide. I was suggesting something along the lines of the attached photo.
I just read some info on the exact loco last month. It is diesel-hydraulic with a Detroit 12V92 engine and tips the scales at about 40 tons (I need to double check that number).
Rob
Title: Re: What If? Design Project: 1925-1940 2ft Diesel
Post by: Wayne Laepple on February 01, 2018, 07:16:31 PM
I have asked an Aussie friend if he can round up drawings and specifications of something like this.
Title: Re: What If? Design Project: 1925-1940 2ft Diesel
Post by: Roger Cole on February 01, 2018, 08:19:41 PM
I noticed mention of a South African diesel.  Sandstone Estates in South Africa has been collecting all sorts of railroad equipment as well as farm equipment, aviation, etc.  They supplied the Welsh Highland Railroad with a Garratt locomotive as well as several gondolas, so they do sell equipment on occasion.  The link below lists their rail inventory as of a few months ago.  Scroll down past the Cape gauge equipment to the 2-foot gauge stuff.  They have more equipment than needed for their excursion loop.  They have several 2-foot diesels--one of them was a GE.  They also would have some wheelsets as well. 

http://www.sandstone-estates.com/images/pdf/Sandstone_Stock_List_Nov2016.pdf
Title: Re: What If? Design Project: 1925-1940 2ft Diesel
Post by: John Kokas on February 01, 2018, 08:39:51 PM
I believe we have several members who are from "Down Under".  There have been mill closures and some scaling back of 2' trackage over the last 10 years.  It might do us well to contact them and ask if they could make some inquiries or to at least sniff around on their local railway forums.  Never know what may turn up.

As far as South Africa is concerned - their stuff is probably too big/heavy for our track.  BUT!  I did not know they had a 2' BALDWIN 4-6-2 Pacific!  A possible engine #12 or 13?
Title: Re: What If? Design Project: 1925-1940 2ft Diesel
Post by: Wayne Laepple on February 01, 2018, 08:54:02 PM
The Baldwin 4-6-2 at Sandstone is currently under restoration, so I think that one's a non-starter.

One of my mates in Oz is president of the Light Railway Study Society of Australia, and I've asked him if he can look into surplus locomotives. But having said that, we next must consider the cost of shipping a locomotive from Queensland to Maine, not to mention the possible difficulties in securing parts for such a locomotive. If nothing else, however, having some drawings and specifications may be useful.
Title: Re: What If? Design Project: 1925-1940 2ft Diesel
Post by: Wayne Laepple on February 01, 2018, 09:43:46 PM
Here are a couple of other Queensland sugar cane locomotives. These are in the 15-20-ton range and about 180 horsepower diesel hydraulics.
Title: Re: What If? Design Project: 1925-1940 2ft Diesel
Post by: Robert Hale on February 02, 2018, 12:39:40 AM
Here are a couple of other Queensland sugar cane locomotives. These are in the 15-20-ton range and about 180 horsepower diesel hydraulics.

http://sa-transport.co.za/trains/sugar_cane_rail/eimco.html
This thing weighs in at 40 tons.
Title: Re: What If? Design Project: 1925-1940 2ft Diesel
Post by: James Patten on February 02, 2018, 01:09:16 AM
Some of the Queensland 2' gauge locos are actually ex-3'6" locos - former Queensland "standard" gauge switchers.
Title: Re: What If? Design Project: 1925-1940 2ft Diesel
Post by: Ed Lecuyer on February 02, 2018, 01:58:48 AM
Another Baldwin design, 32 tons:
http://sa-transport.co.za/trains/sugar_cane_rail/baldwin.html (http://sa-transport.co.za/trains/sugar_cane_rail/baldwin.html)
Title: Re: What If? Design Project: 1925-1940 2ft Diesel
Post by: Wayne Laepple on February 02, 2018, 02:29:51 AM
Let us be clear that the Baldwin sugar railway diesels are NOT from Baldwin Locomotive Works, USA; rather they are by E.M. Baldwin & Sons of New South Wales, Australia -- no relation.
Title: Re: What If? Design Project: 1925-1940 2ft Diesel
Post by: Ed Lecuyer on February 02, 2018, 02:43:58 AM
Oh. You learn something new every day. They kind of look like a US Baldwin.
Title: Re: What If? Design Project: 1925-1940 2ft Diesel
Post by: Roger Cole on February 02, 2018, 03:51:36 AM
3' 6" is also known as Cape Gauge as in South Africa.
Title: Re: What If? Design Project: 1925-1940 2ft Diesel
Post by: Philip Marshall on February 02, 2018, 03:54:38 AM
But just to be confusing, the WWI gas-mechanical locos like FR 'Moelwyn' mentioned earlier in the thread really are from the US Baldwin Locomotive Works, not the Australian Baldwin.
Title: Re: What If? Design Project: 1925-1940 2ft Diesel
Post by: Robert Hale on February 02, 2018, 11:54:36 AM
But just to be confusing, the WWI gas-mechanical locos like FR 'Moelwyn' mentioned earlier in the thread really are from the US Baldwin Locomotive Works, not the Australian Baldwin.

I'll try to clarify my position: My plan for #53 & #54 settled on the drive train style of the Baldwin gas-mechanical like the 'Moelwyn' minus the leading non-powered axle and then making a 0-4-0+0-4-0 twin engine center cab engine using Cummins 6BTs with automatic transmissions on both ends. A 100-120 gallon fuel tank and air tanks from a semi-truck. I'm aiming for about 20-25000lbs with a top out of 30000lbs max.

Rob
Title: Re: What If? Design Project: 1925-1940 2ft Diesel
Post by: Wayne Laepple on February 02, 2018, 04:33:49 PM
Here's a 1935-vintage 150 hp 0-6-0 diesel built in Australia. Still in existence, still operational.
Title: Re: What If? Design Project: 1925-1940 2ft Diesel
Post by: John Kokas on February 03, 2018, 12:45:25 PM
Robert,

Due to the scaled down size of your proposed engine, I would suggest you look more at a 4BT engine rather than a 6BT.  They are available up to 140HP which is only slightly less than the original engines on a 44 tonner.  There are lots of surplus or re-man engines available for very reasonable prices.  Also I would look at diesel-electric as they would not require transmissions, gearing, etc. They would also be period correct since both GE and I-R were building boxcabs during the 1920's-30s.
Title: Re: What If? Design Project: 1925-1940 2ft Diesel
Post by: Robert Hale on February 05, 2018, 01:11:34 PM
Robert,

Due to the scaled down size of your proposed engine, I would suggest you look more at a 4BT engine rather than a 6BT.  They are available up to 140HP which is only slightly less than the original engines on a 44 tonner.  There are lots of surplus or re-man engines available for very reasonable prices.  Also I would look at diesel-electric as they would not require transmissions, gearing, etc. They would also be period correct since both GE and I-R were building boxcabs during the 1920's-30s.

The biggest issue I have been running into is finding a suitable generator head to power the electrics. Traction motors and controllers are easy to find, but the generator is the hard part. I'll keep digging unless someone knows of a good DC generator head out there.
4BTs are also a good option but they are pricey to the point of costing more than 6BTs right now.

Rob

Edit: Just found a 26KW diesel DC genset. Now to look up if speed controllers can handle variable voltages to operate electric motors.

Edit 2: HOLY COW! Speed controllers are $$$$$$$, motors are about $4000.00 ea, and that is not including all the wire, relays, fuses ect and the genset is not cheap as well. I think this was why I shied away from diesel-electric.
Title: Re: What If? Design Project: 1925-1940 2ft Diesel
Post by: Wayne Laepple on February 05, 2018, 04:20:07 PM
Just as a matter of information, as well as a possible assist in the design of a new internal combustion locomotive, the early General electric steeple-cab electric locomotives were fitted with arch-bar trucks. See photo. This particular locomotive was later outfitted with a diesel engine and generator buy its original owner, the Warwick Railway in Rhode Island, and still later purchased and retrofitted with another larger diesel by the Strasburg Rail Road. Unfortunately, it was too small for their needs and scrapped.
Title: Re: What If? Design Project: 1925-1940 2ft Diesel
Post by: Robert Hale on February 05, 2018, 07:27:28 PM
Just as a matter of information, as well as a possible assist in the design of a new internal combustion locomotive, the early General electric steeple-cab electric locomotives were fitted with arch-bar trucks. See photo. This particular locomotive was later outfitted with a diesel engine and generator buy its original owner, the Warwick Railway in Rhode Island, and still later purchased and retrofitted with another larger diesel by the Strasburg Rail Road. Unfortunately, it was too small for their needs and scrapped.

I'll keep doing the research on the diesel electric.
Title: Re: What If? Design Project: 1925-1940 2ft Diesel (update)
Post by: Robert Hale on May 31, 2019, 12:07:44 PM
Update:
I put my planning on the back burner due to work and some medical issues (food allergy) but now I am back at working on the diesel design. From what I can see and find a diesel-hydraulic (automatic transmission) set up with mechanical running gear is the cheapest course to chart. Twin 6BT Cummins engines (2 valve with the mechanical pump) and the automatic transmissions out of the Dodge 250/350 trucks. Parts are easy to get. Center transmission is a custom part (fabbed and welded steel) with off the shelf ring and pinions and a custom reversing bottom (like how an outboard motor shifts). I just finished the rough design of the truck gearboxes since finding split seals was a challenge, they will also use ring and pinions of the shelf (Dana 80) and be fabbed steel. I just need to email the retailer on the ability of running the gears both ways in the axle gearboxes.
From what I gather the speed limit on the line is 15mph so the way this thing will be geared that will be close to topping out. I also plan on having it run with air compressors and disk brakes. Still working out other systems to run both engines simultaneously and yes it will have a cab heater and maybe A/C.
I'll be teaching myself my older CAD program that I have and try to get all this down on paper and digitally. Bear with me since I do work full time and am doing my best.

Rob
Title: Re: What If? Design Project: 1925-1940 2ft Diesel
Post by: Jason M Lamontagne on June 01, 2019, 12:04:25 AM
Speed limit on our road is 25 as we maintain fra class 2 track (with an appropriate amount of speed restrictions).  A top speed of 15 in a locomotive is truly too slow.  Our common trip speed usually peaks at 17-19 mph.  A locomotive should be able to handle peak speed without being at capacity.

Rob, fair warning again.  Your concept plans and design ideas are welcome, however any formal development would need board approval and would thereafter involve our in house volunteer engineer (mechanical and electrical engineers) team.  As you put time into this- be sure to keep the above in mind and keep your effort proportional to that condition.

Thanks,
Jason
Title: Re: What If? Design Project: 1925-1940 2ft Diesel
Post by: Robert Hale on June 03, 2019, 03:10:31 PM
I'll calculate the speed of the gearsets and see what comes out. Yes, I will do my best to have a good drawing/concept once I finish.

Rob
Title: Re: What If? Design Project: 1925-1940 2ft Diesel
Post by: Dag Bonnedal on June 05, 2019, 10:24:56 AM
A lot of wise things already said; you will certainly need a "road" diesel in the long run (historic or not), hydraulic with pump/motor (hydrostatic as we call it) is not a way forward, rebuilding proven technology is probably better than scratch building, diesel electric is difficult in this gauge.

Just to give a slightly different perspective. We had the same need when we lengthened our line from 2 to 7 miles 10 years ago.
We bought a Russian built narrow gauge diesel from Ukraine and had it regauged, re-engined and rebuilt in Estonia (No. 21 Gaivoron).
https://www.oslj.nu/sv-SE/fordon/motorlok-41307609
Sister locos have also been bought to Finland and Norway, and two more powerful TU7 to Breacon Mountain RR in Wales.

This Russian standard diesel type TU4 for 750 mm (29.5") was the original design for well over 11 000 (!) locos built so far and still being built.
It is a shaft driven diesel hydraulic (torque converter) and most of all, the trucks are of a very simple but yet of a beautiful and extremely well functioning design. They are designed to run equally well over logging railroads where the rails have been nailed to logs placed directly on the untouched ground as well over more than 100 miles long roads in 30 mph (with sleeper and restaurant cars!).

The different variants have been built with weight and power spanning from 15 tons 120 hp to 26 tons 400 hp with the same trucks.
A few of the variants:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TU4_diesel_locomotive
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TU6_diesel_locomotive
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TU7_diesel_locomotive
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TU8_diesel_locomotive

We had to narrow down the cab only and took the opportunity to design it with one driving position in each direction. Our volunteers love the loco (although it has had a few teething troubles in the parts that were not rebuilt) and our passengers accept it as a "real" loco when the fire hazard is too great to run steam.
Title: Re: What If? Design Project: 1925-1940 2ft Diesel
Post by: Mike Fox on June 05, 2019, 11:28:41 AM
That 21 is a sharp looking locomotive.
Title: Re: What If? Design Project: 1925-1940 2ft Diesel
Post by: John Kokas on June 05, 2019, 12:06:54 PM
I have to agree with Mike - your #21 is a sharp looking diesel.  Dag, if possible, how much did it cost to purchase, ship, and rebuild that unit?  Thanks for bringing this item to light.
Title: Re: What If? Design Project: 1925-1940 2ft Diesel
Post by: John Scott on June 05, 2019, 01:21:02 PM
It is always the same: history repeats itself, even on heritage railroads. Sadly, the lure of the diesel is irresistible.
Title: Re: What If? Design Project: 1925-1940 2ft Diesel
Post by: Dag Bonnedal on June 05, 2019, 05:33:30 PM
Lure or not...
The real question is weather you close down traffic all together or run it some days with diesel. We are definitely a steam railroad. Last summer we had extremely dry and hot weather in Sweden for a period of about 10 weeks. All steam trains in the whole of Sweden was totally shut down due to the fire hazard. Except on our line, we ran steam every day! Until early July we ran steam only, but then we concentrated the steam service to the shorter, less taxing and more frequented (by our passengers) section between Mariefred and Läggesta.
To continue to run steam on the longer section to Taxinge was out of the question, long sections with no road access and fairly large forests along the line made the risk too high.
Still, some people called the fire brigade when they saw the smoke from our locos, and could not understand how we dared to continue to run steam. But we have always had a good cooperation with the local fire brigade, even in the earlier occasions when we have had line-side fires. We had no incidents last year.
With big wildfires raging in central Sweden our passengers were more than understanding if they had to travel behind (a too modern) diesel on part of the journey.

I started to push for an investment in a new diesel 25 years ago, but it was not until we started to build the new line that our members full saw the urgent need. Thus we were a bit in a rush, and had not the capacity to do the rebuild ourselves. Thus the loco did cost a total of 100' $, this was all financed by a group of our active members (including myself).
Other locos from eastern Europe have been cheaper, any price level down to 5' $, depending on what you buy and if anything should be done to it.
I was project manager for this project, thus I have collected a lot of information on these locos (without knowing any Russian).
Title: Re: What If? Design Project: 1925-1940 2ft Diesel
Post by: John McNamara on June 05, 2019, 06:10:27 PM
Thus the loco did cost a total of 100' $, this was all financed by a group of our active members (including myself).
Other locos from eastern Europe have been cheaper, any price level down to 5' $, depending on what you buy and if anything should be done to it.
I presume that in US nomenclature 100'$ would be $100,000 and 5' $ would be $5,000?
Thanks!
Title: Re: What If? Design Project: 1925-1940 2ft Diesel
Post by: Benjamin Richards on June 05, 2019, 07:00:32 PM
It is always the same: history repeats itself, even on heritage railroads. Sadly, the lure of the diesel is irresistible.

I find the statement true, but the moroseness seems a little mis-guided. Although today's WW&F exists to duplicate the form and function of the original as closely as possible (and so far has, to a very high degree), almost everything about the world has changed in the intervening century or so. Financial considerations, regulations, and even the nature of the labor force are all unrecognizable when compared to the first quarter of the 20th century. Consequently, the WW&F has to identify which aspects of "historical correctness" are the most important to pursue, and make compromises in other areas that support those most important aspects.

A recent relevant example is the D&SNG's purchase of two diesels for use when the fire risk is too high to use coal-burning locomotives. They are also (finished?) converting 493 to burn oil for a similar reason. "The new era is not necessarily of D&SNG’s choosing, but the 416 Fire brought home the precarious nature of sending coal-burning trains...in a forest that is increasingly battling ever-longer droughts."

I'm not suggesting that risk of fire would be the primary motivation for a WW&F road diesel; only that in a general sense, blind adherence to a strict dogma inevitably ends in failure. Moreover, I believe the WW&F leadership clearly understands the balance that must be maintained.
Title: Re: What If? Design Project: 1925-1940 2ft Diesel
Post by: Dag Bonnedal on June 05, 2019, 08:04:42 PM


I presume that in US nomenclature 100'$ would be $100,000 and 5' $ would be $5,000?
Thanks!


John,
Sorry for being unclear, that is correct.
Title: Re: What If? Design Project: 1925-1940 2ft Diesel
Post by: Robert Hale on June 05, 2019, 11:40:36 PM
A lot of wise things already said; you will certainly need a "road" diesel in the long run (historic or not), hydraulic with pump/motor (hydrostatic as we call it) is not a way forward, rebuilding proven technology is probably better than scratch building, diesel electric is difficult in this gauge.

Just to give a slightly different perspective. We had the same need when we lengthened our line from 2 to 7 miles 10 years ago.
We bought a Russian built narrow gauge diesel from Ukraine and had it regauged, re-engined and rebuilt in Estonia (No. 21 Gaivoron).
https://www.oslj.nu/sv-SE/fordon/motorlok-41307609
Sister locos have also been bought to Finland and Norway, and two more powerful TU7 to Breacon Mountain RR in Wales.

This Russian standard diesel type TU4 for 750 mm (29.5") was the original design for well over 11 000 (!) locos built so far and still being built.
It is a shaft driven diesel hydraulic (torque converter) and most of all, the trucks are of a very simple but yet of a beautiful and extremely well functioning design. They are designed to run equally well over logging railroads where the rails have been nailed to logs placed directly on the untouched ground as well over more than 100 miles long roads in 30 mph (with sleeper and restaurant cars!).

The different variants have been built with weight and power spanning from 15 tons 120 hp to 26 tons 400 hp with the same trucks.
A few of the variants:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TU4_diesel_locomotive
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TU6_diesel_locomotive
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TU7_diesel_locomotive
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TU8_diesel_locomotive

We had to narrow down the cab only and took the opportunity to design it with one driving position in each direction. Our volunteers love the loco (although it has had a few teething troubles in the parts that were not rebuilt) and our passengers accept it as a "real" loco when the fire hazard is too great to run steam.

Can you share some photos or drawings of the running gear?
Title: Re: What If? Design Project: 1925-1940 2ft Diesel
Post by: John Kokas on June 05, 2019, 11:45:26 PM
The frames on those trucks remind me of the old Erie Stillwell passenger cars.  Not the best riding but you could beat them to death and they still would roll.
Title: Re: What If? Design Project: 1925-1940 2ft Diesel
Post by: Wayne Laepple on June 05, 2019, 11:50:42 PM
Can you even begin to imagine the miles and miles of red tape that would be wrapped around a locomotive built in a communist state being imported into this country?
Title: Re: What If? Design Project: 1925-1940 2ft Diesel
Post by: John Kokas on June 06, 2019, 12:13:56 AM
Not if it comes through any country but Russia or Belarus.  All the former Eastern European Soviet block countries are either part of the European Union or pending membership in NATO.  Not considered hostile countries anymore - as Dag said, these units were shipped all over.
Title: Re: What If? Design Project: 1925-1940 2ft Diesel
Post by: Robert Hale on June 06, 2019, 10:03:33 AM
Can you even begin to imagine the miles and miles of red tape that would be wrapped around a locomotive built in a communist state being imported into this country?

What about all the stuff that comes from China? They are a communist state still today. My guess is that if you were to import a locomotive like that to the states it will most likely be easier to do than importing a car from Japan. And it might actually fit in a container too.

Rob
Title: Re: What If? Design Project: 1925-1940 2ft Diesel
Post by: James Patten on June 06, 2019, 11:01:52 AM
We routinely get emails from companies inside former Soviet states offering TU7 locomotives.  They generally get caught by the spam filter, but perhaps I should start forwarding them to Jason?  ;D
Title: Re: What If? Design Project: 1925-1940 2ft Diesel
Post by: John Kokas on June 06, 2019, 12:00:11 PM
I think the best way to address this, (and the cheapest), is to find a couple of salvage TU4 type engines that are in a "dead line" somewhere and ship them to Alna.  Then our own shop crew can decide what engine/trans/hyd pump combo and braking system they would want to use.
Title: Re: What If? Design Project: 1925-1940 2ft Diesel
Post by: Robert Hale on June 06, 2019, 01:36:02 PM
I'll clarify why I thought up this idea for the line in the first place. I want to help out the best I can from a distance, and I saw a need for a locomotive (diesel) for the railroad as an "insurance" policy for the line. Thus the "what if" title. You know if the WW&F continued operations into the late 30s' and into the 40's they might have looked into a diesel locomotive to offset operating downtime, or for a more reliable locomotive with reduced operating costs (fuel, labor ect). This is a plausible path that might have been gone down if the line had survived.
Fast forward to today, and I am always awe struck on how authentic the line really is, down to the details of clothing and others things to roll back the hands of time for visitors. On the other hand the museum needs to be able to function so having a large diesel locomotive that can handle MOW trains, plow duty, and as emergency standby (rescue) if needed is a good idea IMO. I can save wear and tear on the current steam locomotives, but does not prohibit the use of steam for certain occasions like a planned "plow/flanger" special or other operations. I thought that designing a locomotive from scratch would be interesting, but really is a challenge. If a suitable locomotive like the one shown here could be bought and brought in and modified, then that might be a better way. As always though it is what the museum wants to do and what the board votes on that will be the path forward. I can only make suggestions based on my limited experience.

Rob 
Title: Re: What If? Design Project: 1925-1940 2ft Diesel
Post by: Mike the Choochoo Nix on June 06, 2019, 02:42:52 PM
I like the look of the TU4, it looks like a American design. If the museum were to decide to purchase one, I think that a representative of the museum would have to inspect any locomotive before purchase to check the condition of the wheels, trucks and frame to insure that it could be rebuilt at a reasonable cost.  As far as remotoring a small locomotive, there are standards for the bellhouseing where the transmission connects. What the metric standards are, and what motor to use is something that should be looked at before a purchase. I know this is all a few years down the road, but it is an interesting idea to pursue.
Mike Nix
Title: Re: What If? Design Project: 1925-1940 2ft Diesel
Post by: Dag Bonnedal on June 06, 2019, 08:31:35 PM
As I said, I was manager for this project and worked very hard with it for two full years.
I don't want to tell anyone what or how they should do, but in best case, I can contribute with a different view.
I have hundreds of drawings on these locos, but right now I don't know how to show them, any suggestion?
I had Photobucket earlier, but not any more...
I tried this on a Swedish site for forum pictures, but they "adapt the pictures for best viewing experience". Which literally means that I can't show detailed drawings this way. I have uploaded them in much higher resolution than what is shown.

Our choice of the TU4 instead of the more modern variants was based on its definitely much better classic look and furthermore the width over the frame is only 2080 mm (82"), which fits precisely in our profile. But the cab had to be rebuilt (original design of the type was with this more narrow cab).
The drawback of this type is that the design is 60 years old. It is centred around a gearbox with torque converter, two mechanical gears with separate electro-hydraulic clutches, reverser and transfer gearbox. All in one two ton massive unit. Specially the TU6 has a much more compact reverser/transfer box separated from the gear box.

As all Russian designs it is built for very rugged service from the desserts of central Asia to the arctic winters in Siberia. But it is a bit "rough". Not a sewing machine precisely.

As I mentioned the true core of these locos is the design of the trucks. They are extremely simple and well functioning. As you may see the frame is made up by two rugged beams with square cross section (made from two U-profiles), placed right over the axle boxes. The only suspension is the coil springs between the axle boxes and the truck frame. The loco frame rests directly on the four low friction pads seen in the top view. The pads run in oil baths. The king pin takes no vertical load. This means that at low speed there are no centring forces on the truck, it is free to rotate according to a less than well maintained track.
At higher speed, on the other hand the trucks have enough friction so they won't move. This would give rise to unacceptably high flange and track forces. If it was not fitted with the ingenious Meste axle box. The axles are free to move axially in the boxes and are centred by coil springs at the ends. The movements take up all small track irregularities at speed.
The loco literally floats along the track like a modern tourist coach with air suspension. There is the potential risk of instability with coil springs only, thus the trucks are designed to have shock absorbers. But those are not needed and have never been used anywhere.

(http://forumbilder.se/I5LSD/150671806.jpg) (http://forumbilder.se/I5LSD/150671806)

(http://forumbilder.se/I5LSE/axelbox-modern.jpg) (http://forumbilder.se/I5LSE/axelbox-modern)

This is what I managed to upload on our loco:
(http://forumbilder.se/I5LS4/oslj-21-gaivoron.jpg) (http://forumbilder.se/I5LS4/oslj-21-gaivoron)

We had a never used Scania 9.5 litre, six cylinder in-line, turbocharge diesel with 200 hp donated to the project by the maker.
(We have about 10 coaches and freight cars built by them on our railroad.)
Title: Re: What If? Design Project: 1925-1940 2ft Diesel
Post by: John Kokas on June 06, 2019, 11:20:13 PM
Dag, I would suggest if Jason has not contacted you privately yet (he's really really busy), that you PM him and set up a method to review and have a technical conversation about the issues with a TU4 conversion.  I could foresee a need to download all your technical drawings for use since it would not make sense to create them a second time.  Maybe a trip to Sweden may be the offing for me,  I know if I did my wife and daughter would insist on coming as my daughter graduated from Jönköping University and loved it there.
Title: Re: What If? Design Project: 1925-1940 2ft Diesel
Post by: Stephen Piwowarski on June 07, 2019, 02:00:52 AM
Look! Those trucks are already vacuum brake equipped- and the pots look similar to the Eames pots on No. 9 :)
Now, to temper my interest (and excitment), I really feel that there is some potential here. I'm certainly interested in learning more!
Title: Re: What If? Design Project: 1925-1940 2ft Diesel
Post by: John Kokas on June 07, 2019, 02:13:50 AM
Stephen,

You noticed too!  Not to mention that the shaft drives and planetary gear are very similar to Budd RDC's.  :D
Title: Re: What If? Design Project: 1925-1940 2ft Diesel
Post by: Dag Bonnedal on June 07, 2019, 06:51:42 AM
Actually not vacuum brake. The whole brake system was and is built with highway truck components, but we redesigned it as it was one circuit only. Brake in one hose or connection would lead to total loss of the brakes!
I designed the new system along the same principles as the Swedish State railways 1700 hp GM diesel T44. (Built in the 60ties by Swedish Nohab with GM components.) But the air brake circuits were built with truck components. Thus the pots are also standard truck units, one for each wheel. Cheap, reliable and readily available. Also the throttle wheel was inspired from the T44.
http://www.jarnvag.net/lokguide/t44
Using proven concepts, design and components was also a necessity to get the project approved by the Swedish Transport Agency.
I can't say if it is possible to squeeze vacuum equipment.
The gear box is built with straight gears, no planetary gears.
Title: Re: What If? Design Project: 1925-1940 2ft Diesel
Post by: Dag Bonnedal on June 07, 2019, 07:11:37 AM
Dag, I would suggest if Jason has not contacted you privately yet (he's really really busy), that you PM him and set up a method to review and have a technical conversation about the issues with a TU4 conversion.  I could foresee a need to download all your technical drawings for use since it would not make sense to create them a second time.  Maybe a trip to Sweden may be the offing for me,  I know if I did my wife and daughter would insist on coming as my daughter graduated from Jönköping University and loved it there.

John, I'll do, and you are more than welcome here. We would provide good opportunities to test drive the loco.
Dag
Title: Re: What If? Design Project: 1925-1940 2ft Diesel
Post by: John Kokas on June 07, 2019, 11:05:31 PM
Thanks Dag,  I think if a trip is set-up there will be a few who will want to tag-along.  Names will not be mentioned to protect guilty...... :o
Title: Re: What If? Design Project: 1925-1940 2ft Diesel
Post by: Stephen Greif on October 08, 2019, 02:23:28 AM
Here is a interesting locomotive that has come up for sale on sterling rail, http://sterlingrail.com/classifieds/classified.php?id=23725 long ways away and quite expensive but fun to think about. 
Title: Re: What If? Design Project: 1925-1940 2ft Diesel
Post by: Bill Piche on October 08, 2019, 04:24:58 PM
Here is a interesting locomotive that has come up for sale on sterling rail, http://sterlingrail.com/classifieds/classified.php?id=23725 long ways away and quite expensive but fun to think about.

It's also the size (loading gauge wise) of a Garrett. Very large. I think that's been brought up here before. I know it has in personal conversations with some people.
Title: Re: What If? Design Project: 1925-1940 2ft Diesel
Post by: James Patten on October 08, 2019, 06:30:16 PM
That size of an engine is, I think, far too large for our needs, or the needs of any of the Maine 2 footers.
Title: Re: What If? Design Project: 1925-1940 2ft Diesel
Post by: Mike Fox on October 08, 2019, 06:47:44 PM
That size of an engine is, I think, far too large for our needs, or the needs of any of the Maine 2 footers.

You saw the price tag, didn't you Mr. Treasurer...😀
Title: Re: What If? Design Project: 1925-1940 2ft Diesel
Post by: Wayne Laepple on October 08, 2019, 06:57:15 PM
Weighs 90 tons, too.
Title: Re: What If? Design Project: 1925-1940 2ft Diesel
Post by: Benjamin Richards on October 09, 2019, 05:27:49 PM
Weighs 90 tons, too.

Where'd you get that figure? Everything I can find shows 48,000 kg or 53 short tons. That's a little more than double the axle loading of #9, but not ridiculous, esp. considering the 65-lb rail currently employed. Also no hammer blow to contend with.

The most striking observation is the obtuseness of a relatively powerful diesel-electric drive system in such a slim gauge, and the resulting enormity of the trucks. The traction motors sticking out asymmetrically from under those huge, high-arched sideframes are a disgrace, visually.

The loading gauge is also rather large, as Bill noted.
Title: Re: What If? Design Project: 1925-1940 2ft Diesel
Post by: John Kokas on October 09, 2019, 06:12:46 PM
A smaller, more simplistic engine is being considered, but not a priority at this time.  Cost will be a major factor and the (well into the 6-figure) cost of the aforementioned unit will probably preclude it from being seriously considered.
Title: Re: What If? Design Project: 1925-1940 2ft Diesel
Post by: Robert Hale on October 11, 2019, 10:53:15 AM
I'm not working on this project anymore. I shelved it and I will let the museum find the path forward concerning this issue.

Rob