W.W.&F. Discussion Forum

WW&F Railway Museum Discussion => Museum Discussion => Topic started by: John Kokas on August 01, 2008, 05:49:49 PM

Title: Engine Air Compressor Lubricators
Post by: John Kokas on August 01, 2008, 05:49:49 PM
Just a quick question - can anyone tell me the type of compressor lubricators that either #9 or #10 use?  I assume they are mechanical link driven.

John
Title: Re: Engine Air Compressor Lubricators
Post by: James Patten on August 01, 2008, 06:40:53 PM
Neither #9 nor #10 has compressed air.  #10 has steam brakes, on the locomotive only.  #9 will have vacuum brakes, which might someday be extended to brake the entire train (we're hopeful).
Title: Re: Engine Air Compressor Lubricators
Post by: John Kokas on August 08, 2008, 10:42:04 AM
james,

thanks for the info, but this raises another question.  how are we going to handle the "FRA" issues regarding future issues of compliance?  as far as i know, hand brakes or an "Eames" style of vacuum brake is not legal.  although not prototypical, wouldn't a small "AB" or at least "ABD" type system be installed.  pumps and parts are available.  your thoughts................

jk
Title: Re: Engine Air Compressor Lubricators
Post by: Ira Schreiber on August 08, 2008, 12:10:43 PM
As I interpert FRA regulations, (yes, I have read them more than once) we have no problem as the regs apply only IF you have air brakes. We are not part of the national system, therefore the air brake section does not apply to our operation.

The are many rumors flying about FRA and if you have the time, please  contact Allan Fisher or myself for clarifications.

Ira Schreiber
Title: Re: Engine Air Compressor Lubricators
Post by: James Patten on August 09, 2008, 12:19:39 AM
John,

I appreciate your concerns about FRA compliance.  We have several volunteers with us who are quite familiar with FRA, one which helped to "write the book" on it - Allan Fisher was involved in crafting the NORAC rules, I believe.  Museum management has everything under control.
Title: Re: Engine Air Compressor Lubricators
Post by: Ken Fleming on August 09, 2008, 09:13:49 PM
Are vacuum brakes, for #10, a two foot gage thing?  Were the original brakes on #10 steam?  Why not air brakes?  Is the valving/control for vacuum brakes simpler? Are the components for vacuum brake system readily available? For engines and cars in the future?
Title: Re: Engine Air Compressor Lubricators
Post by: Ken Fleming on August 09, 2008, 09:18:51 PM
In my post about vacuum brakes, I meant #9, but questions would apply if we maintain a uniform braking system.
Title: Re: Engine Air Compressor Lubricators
Post by: James Patten on August 10, 2008, 01:16:20 PM
#10 was originally constructed for a LA sugar plantation.  I doubt she had any brakes at that time.  I assume it was Edaville that added the steam brakes, likely because #3 and 4 also had steam brakes and steam brake equipment may have been lying around or easy to come by.

As for #9, the WW&F shop crew added the vacuum brakes when she arrived on the property.  Again, they likely had some vacuum equipment lying around unused from other engines.  At one time the WW&F had other pieces of equipment with vacuum brakes.

As for vacuum brake equipment availability, I don't know.  The Ffestiniog in Wales runs with vacuum brakes for their whole train, so either they know a place to get equipment or fabricate their own.
Title: Re: Engine Air Compressor Lubricators
Post by: Ken Fleming on August 10, 2008, 05:33:50 PM
James, thanks for the information.  In my 52 years of running steam locomotives, I have run several with steam brakes, but none without any brakes or with vacuum brakes. Even cane trains need to have a means of stopping.  I'll have to Google some information on vacuum brake systems. 
Title: Re: Engine Air Compressor Lubricators
Post by: Wayne Laepple on August 11, 2008, 01:36:40 AM
Steam brakes were quite common on smaller steam industrial locomotives. Using steam for the brakes meant one less system to maintain, since you didn't need air or vacuum to operate the brakes. Some of the earlier logging locomotives had three brake systems: steam for the engine, air (independent for the engine) and automatic air for the train. At least one of the remaining "original" Shays at Cass Scenic Railroad in West Virginia still has all three. Steam cranes and shovels operating on rails also were often fitted with steam brakes for the same reason. In fact, the steam brake valve on the little Shay in Bradford, Pa., came off a steam crane.
Title: Re: Engine Air Compressor Lubricators
Post by: John Kokas on August 24, 2008, 01:36:51 AM
James, Ira, et al.

Have contacts with FRA myself and "rumor" issue of having non-connected RR's coming under FRA jurisdiction - has not gone away.  When it comes about is anyone's guess but it would be wise to be preparing a "Plan B" if this does come about.  As I read the reg's, one could probably get away with a "6" brake under a historical equipment clause.  Better safe than sorry.......................

JK
Title: Re: Engine Air Compressor Lubricators
Post by: P2c3689 on October 19, 2008, 07:27:10 PM
Strictly speaking, I don't think the FRA is OK with the use of vacuum brakes or straight air brakes, as there is no failsafe. That having been said, they also have a lot more important fish to fry. It's cut and dry that to meet the legal requirements if you cross a public grossing at grade,  you to have automatic air brakes of some sort, this was required by law by one of te railroad safety appliance acts around the turn of the century.I always thought a good way to get a hold of the parts would be to buy some of those Chinese 6-ET copies that they use over on those SYs and QJs.
Trevor Hartford
Knoxville, TN
Member and Volunteer, MNGRR
Member and Volunteer, Tennessee Valley Railroad Museum
Title: Re: Engine Air Compressor Lubricators
Post by: Wayne Laepple on October 19, 2008, 08:15:46 PM
Yesterday, I had the good fortune to visit the Foster Brook & State Line Railroad in Bradford, Pa. Its owner, Doug Kuntz, has a lovely 12-ton, 24-inch gauge Lima Shay of 1920 vintage. He showed me a brand new steam brake valve he just had made for it, using as a pattern the steam brake valve from one of the Shays at Cass. I sent a photo of the valve to Stephen. Perhaps he can post it, since I am clueless.

The big problem with fitting our locomotives with air brakes, as I see it, is the air compressor would use a substantial amount of steam, and, with our tiny boilers, well, you can see the potential problem.

By the way, I don't think the necessity for air brakes if you cross a public thoroughfare goes back to the original Railway Safety Appliance Act. Until 1967, a narrow-gauge mining line crossed two public roads in Wanamie, Pa., with only the lokies (also Vulcans) equipped with steam brakes, just like no. 10. These were  the last survivors of the hundreds of anthracite haulage lines that crossed many a street or road in northeastern Pennsylvania, and there were quite a few logging railroads in Pennsylvania that did the same thing without benefit of train air.

Finally, not to dispute James, but I believe no. 10 probably had a steam jam brake when built. Even in the flat cane fields of Louisiana, there is sometimes a need to stop at a specific location. 
Title: Re: Engine Air Compressor Lubricators
Post by: Stephen Hussar on October 19, 2008, 09:52:53 PM
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-8/342468/newsteambrakevalve.jpg)
Title: Re: Engine Air Compressor Lubricators
Post by: Jon Chase on October 19, 2008, 10:10:59 PM
Trevor Hartford wrote:

"Strictly speaking, I don't think the FRA is OK with the use of vacuum brakes or straight air brakes, as there is no failsafe."

Trevor, it is incorrect that 'vacuum brakes or straight air brakes' have no 'failsafe,'  assuming that you mean what I believe you do by each of these terms.

The 'vacuum brakes' once used by many American railroads, including most if not all of the Maine two footers at one time, are more properly described as automatic vacuum brakes, in which the reduction of the vacuum in the train line (i.e., the introduction of atmospheric pressure) causes the brakes to apply.  "Straight air brakes," in obsolete railroad usage, are essentially the reverse, in that a reduction in the train line pressure directly causes a brake application.  Both systems are "automatic" in that an emergency application results from any unintentional break in the trainline, such as the train uncoupling while in motion. 

Steam brakes, which are sometimes referred to as "jam brakes," use steam pressure to apply the brakes on a locomotive, similarly to the air brakes used on highway trucks.  Neither of designs these would "failsafe" if used on rolling stock coupled together.  If the cars were to pull apart unintentionally, the brakes would be completely released. 

Early railroad straight air brakes were superseded following the invention of the Westinghouse "triple valve," the ancestor of the K and AB freight car systems and the passenger variants such as PC and UC.  In these systems, a reduction in the trainline causes pressurized air stored in reservoirs under each car to be released with great force, resulting in the application of the brakes with considerably more effect and thus facilitating the introduction of larger locomotives and higher speeds. 

Trevor Hartford also wrote:

"That having been said, they also have a lot more important fish to fry. It's cut and dry that to meet the legal requirements if you cross a public grossing at grade,  you to have automatic air brakes of some sort, this was required by law by one of te railroad safety appliance acts around the turn of the century."

Trevor, you haven't actually cited any regulatory language here.  But if the FRA's requirement is that brakes be "automatic," there could be no objection to an automatic vacuum installation.  Indeed, most standard gauge preserved railways in the UK use such vacuum brakes, which were standard practice over there into the 1960s at least. 

Jon Chase   
Title: Re: Engine Air Compressor Lubricators
Post by: James Patten on October 19, 2008, 11:47:13 PM
The big problem with fitting our locomotives with air brakes, as I see it, is the air compressor would use a substantial amount of steam, and, with our tiny boilers, well, you can see the potential problem.

For sake of argument (I'm not saying we can or should do it), I noticed on the Talyllyn Railway in Wales that each of the steam engines had small air compressors added to them.  The engines themselves are quite tiny, maybe 2/3rds the size of #10, and they had equally tiny air compressors on them.  To be fair, they have a maximum train size due to passing sidings and hauling ability of the engines, plus their cars are no where near the size of ours (so less weight to stop).

Finally, not to dispute James, but I believe no. 10 probably had a steam jam brake when built. Even in the flat cane fields of Louisiana, there is sometimes a need to stop at a specific location. 

My statement stemmed from the lack of anything that looked brake-like in #10's erection picture, which was published in a previous newsletter from several years ago, and is sitting framed on my coffee table in the living room. 
Title: Re: Engine Air Compressor Lubricators
Post by: Keith Taylor on October 20, 2008, 01:37:20 PM
In my copy of "Down Among the Sugar Cane" there are pictures of our No. 10 in its previous guise, and there is no sign of brakes on the drivers. In fact, many of the locomotives in the sugar cane fields appear to have no brakes. The land was flat, there were no grades to contend with, so merely reversing the valve gear and using the pistons as a compressor, was enough to slow and stop the train.
If that wasn't enough, you could open the throttle a tad while in reverse, and you will stop!
Keith
Title: Re: Engine Air Compressor Lubricators
Post by: John Kokas on October 22, 2008, 12:11:37 AM
Per some of the previous discussion, there are in fact steam compressors that are available "new" from china.  If my memory is correct the smallest I saw was a 4" dia. single stage that was just a miniature of standard Westinghouse single stage 8".  This would be ideal for the size equipment WWF has.  Also remember that with the reduced size of train in tow, the air requirements are all a percentage smaller (e.g. - smaller resevoirs, piping, etc.) and also limited train length makes it quite doable.  A 6ET brake stand would probably be perfect for our use.  I just wish I still had one - sold a complete unit to Mt. Rainier Scenic about 3 years ago.
Lastly, e-mail from a friend in D.C. just the other day.  Get ready for Plan "B" - it looks like non-network rail will be coming under jurisdiction as early as next year.   
Title: Re: Engine Air Compressor Lubricators
Post by: Stephen Hussar on October 22, 2008, 12:24:29 AM
John, I'm assuming you mean these. I've seen these before and wondered...they look so much like a Westinghouse...are they? Just rebuilt...or are they copies... interesting in any case.http://www.multipowerinternational.com/aircomp.html

(http://www.multipowerinternational.com/picture/simplex.jpg)

And how about a nice new injector?!

(http://www.multipowerinternational.com/picture/lifting.jpg)
Title: Re: Engine Air Compressor Lubricators
Post by: John Kokas on October 22, 2008, 01:08:10 PM
Steve,

good eye - they are in fact "new" but copies of stuff that has been around for years.  mostly copied from USRA loco's and equipment that were sent to china back during WWII.  All the chinese did was convert English measurements to closest metric equivalents.  we can get almost all the "stuff" we need from china to include brake stands.  someone else mentioned that the SY/QJ models now in the U.S. are in fact 6ET brake systems.
Title: Re: Engine Air Compressor Lubricators
Post by: Keith Taylor on October 22, 2008, 03:05:28 PM
John, On a bit of a humorous note, if you put a No. 6 brake in the cab of No. 10, you wouldn't have room for one small item...the engineer!
 Also, a 6 ET would not be required, as ET stands for Engine and Tender, and our Forneys don't have seperate tenders. A 6 BL might be a better choice. However.... I believe the FRA doesn't require air brakes on equipment that is not used in interchange service. Things like scale test cars have no brakes at all. I don't think they even have a requirement to have brakes at all! However, the Power Boiler Act of 1919 (Federal Law) does state that if a locomotive is equipped with an appliance, it must be in working order and cut in. Just as some railroads choose to not equip their locomotives with a safety control pedal (deadman) the law states that if it is so equipped, it must be in working condition and cut in and working.
Keith
Title: Re: Engine Air Compressor Lubricators
Post by: Ira Schreiber on October 22, 2008, 04:48:09 PM
Although air brakes are off topic, there in NOTHING in FRA regulations that mandates air/vacuum brakes for the WW&F.
If you take time to read the Federal regulations, which I have done, they state that if they have automatic brakes, they must be certified and operative.
Without getting into a long discussion, we don't need them, legally.
Allan Fisher, an expert on the subject, can expand on this topic if necessary, I'm sure.
Ira
Title: Re: Engine Air Compressor Lubricators
Post by: Eric Bolton on October 22, 2008, 08:55:23 PM

"Straight air brakes," in obsolete railroad usage, are essentially the reverse, in that a reduction in the train line pressure directly causes a brake application.  Both systems are "automatic" in that an emergency application results from any unintentional break in the trainline, such as the train uncoupling while in motion. 


I'm sorry but you are mistaken. In a strait air system the system is not a charged. The brakes are applied by introducing compressed air into the brake pipe by a air cock in the cab. To release the brakes the air is vented from this same cock. Springs then push the brake shoes away from the wheels. There for when there is a break in the brake pipe you end up with a total loss of brakes other then hand brakes.

   An Automatic Air Brake System uses a series of reservoirs and control valves to operate the brakes. The Automatic Brake Valve on the locomotive has direct control over the locomotives Equalizing Reservoir. A reduction in pressure in this reservoir is relayed to the Brake Pipe by the Relay Valve on the locomotive. The now higher Brake Pipe pressure pushes a diaphragm inside the Relay Valve that allows the Brake Pipe pressure to escape which in turn reduces the Brake Pipe pressure. Once the Brake Pipe pressure reduces to the Equalizing Reservoir pressure the diaphragm closes. This reduction in Brake Pipe pressure is read by the Control Valves on the cars. The drop in pressure causes the Control Valve to move to the "service" position. This happens because of the difference in pressure between the Brake Pipe and the cars Auxiliary Reservoir. The Auxiliary Reservoir pressure is vented to the Brake Cylinder until the Auxiliary Reservoir reaches the same pressure as the Brake Pipe. To release the brakes the Automatic Brake Valve is placed in release. This allows the Equalizing Reservoir to charge from the Main Reservoirs. The diaphragm in the Relay valve now moves to allow Main Reservoir pressure to charge the Brake Pipe. This change in pressure is again read by the Control Valve which now moves to the "charging" position due to the difference in pressure. This position vents the Brake Cylinder pressure to atmosphere and allows the Auxiliary Reservoir to charge and the brakes are returned by spring tension. The systems overall pressure is set by the Regulating Valve on the locomotive. Once the Equalizing Reservoir reaches the set pressure the Regulating Valve cuts it off from charging further. The Brake Pipe will not charge higher then the Equalizing Reservoir. Now an Emergency Application of the brakes is cause by a rapid reduction in Brake Pipe Pressure either by the Automatic Brake Valve or a break in the Brake Pipe. An Emergency Application only provides 20% more braking above a Full Service Application (32psi in a 110psi system and 27psi in a 90psi system). This causes the Brake Pipe, Equalizing and Auxiliary Reservoirs (on modern equipment your Emergency Res as well) to be vented to 0psi.

   The Independent Brake on a locomotive is an example of a "Strait air system." When the Idependent Brake Valve is moved to a service position it sends Main Reservoir air to a Relay Valve which then allows Main Reservoir air to go directly to the locomotive Brake Cylinder. When placed in release the Brake Cylinder pressure is vented to atmosphere at the Relay Valve.

  Glade I paid attention is class!

Eric Bolton,
Student Locomotive Engineer; New Jersey Transit
Steam Locomotive Fireman; New Hope & Ivyland Railroad



Title: Re: Engine Air Compressor Lubricators
Post by: Stewart "Start" Rhine on October 22, 2008, 11:18:27 PM
When I worked for the Maryland Midland Railway wekept the standard 90lb brake pressure on our trains.  We used to have a couple of EMD F-7's from the CNW that didn't have dynamic braking.  We always did a 9lb reduction on the brake pipe to retard the train coming down the mountain from Blue Ridge Summit when these units were on the point.  We also had two former N&W GP-9's with dynamic braking.  They held the train back enough that we didn't need the brake pipe reduction.  Our system worked as Eric described.
Title: Re: Engine Air Compressor Lubricators
Post by: Eric Bolton on October 23, 2008, 03:27:54 AM
Yes your standard freight air system charges to 90psi. A passenger system charges to 110psi.
Title: Re: Engine Air Compressor Lubricators
Post by: John Kokas on October 25, 2008, 12:57:50 AM
Keith, good call "my bad" - I got into the ET rut and forgot about the Forney application.  You are correct with the BL nomenclature. 

Ira - with all due respect, the news from D.C. (previous post) is not necessarily good.  There is a determined effort on-going for including all non-network rail into the FRA's jurisdiction.  We can all pray for the best that government will not get that big but I'd rather be ready with a plan "B" than to be caught with my pants down.
Title: Re: Engine Air Compressor Lubricators
Post by: Mike the Choochoo Nix on October 26, 2008, 01:02:12 AM
  Get ready for Plan "B" - it looks like non-network rail will be coming under jurisdiction as early as next year.   

What is Non-network rail? Are they talking about Disney Land? They give steam train rides to the public! Steam and gas engine shows with a train? Private "museums" that have a once a year public train ride?
Tell us more. And just how is the WWF different than any of these?

Mike Nix
Title: Re: Engine Air Compressor Lubricators
Post by: John Kokas on October 28, 2008, 11:58:33 PM
Mike,

basically yes to all of your questions, (paying fares). It is being done for "the public good", Washington-ese for bigger government  ;)

Enuf said..........
Title: Re: Engine Air Compressor Lubricators
Post by: Stephen Hussar on October 29, 2008, 01:11:50 PM
The way I read it, it looks like they're studying whether less frequent inspections of (historic, museum, tourist, scenic) equipment is feasible and safe.