W.W.&F. Discussion Forum

WW&F Railway Museum Discussion => Work and Events => Topic started by: Stephen Hussar on July 31, 2008, 11:19:41 AM

Title: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Stephen Hussar on July 31, 2008, 11:19:41 AM
All, Bernie Perch sent these new pictures of the just received castings for No 11's bell bracket -- which look fantastic...thanks Bernie!! I almost cropped the second picture showing Bernie's shoe, but I thought it was good for scale...so I left it in...shows how big this stuff really is!!  

(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-8/342468/bellcastingpcslayedoutsm.jpg)
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-8/342468/bellcastingpcstogethersm.jpg)
Title: Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Bernie Perch on August 02, 2008, 01:56:32 AM
I would like to thank Stephen for posting the photos because my computer skills in this area are non-existant.  An extra special thanks to Wayne Laepple who encouraged me to become involved in this project and who shared the cost of making the castings--an expense which I didn't care to do completely myself.  We are donating this to the #11 project.  Foundry costs are esculating like everything else, and there is a lot of sticker shock involved with this project.

Wayne brought the bell down here from Sheepscot after a track weekend.  It was an old, tired, and rough casting.  I believe it was from an EMD diesel but a perfect size for our narrow gauge.  It came with a collection to the museum.  Having polished several rough bells, I knew what was underneath all that crud.

We decided to do a bell and bracket early on so that it could become a recognizable part of a display featuring the construction progress of #11.  Most everyone has a good idea of what a bell is all about.

Finally thank you everyone for your positive comments.  They are the fuel which keeps my desire going on this project.  I'm sure that everyone up there who is working on all the projects looks forward to the compliments.

Bern
Title: Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: David Johnson on August 03, 2008, 01:28:22 AM
Having seen the pictures of the great patterns that Bernie made, I really appreciate seeing the photos of the new bell hanger castings.  It's great to find that you have a foundry that will do loose patterns and that will produce quality castings.
Dave Johnson
Title: Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Bernie Perch on August 03, 2008, 02:35:17 AM
Even though we took the patterns to the foundry "loose", and they were returned that way, there is evidence that they may have been mounted on boards.  There was a $50 "one time set up fee" for each of the four patterns.  Some foundries charge extra for core work.

When I sent "loose" patterns to Active Brass in Perkasie, PA. for Project 113, they mounted them on boards with all the gates, risers, etc.  They were returned that way so that for the next trip, they were ready to go.  Of course there was a charge for this.



Bernie
Title: Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Wayne Laepple on August 11, 2008, 09:28:30 PM
Some folks may have noticed the four "feet" on the bell bracket casting. Bernie decided to add these so that the bell will be able to stand on a floor or shelf, and when it's time to mount this bell on no. 11's new boiler, the feet will be cut off. The actual base of the bracket is curved to match the radius of the boiler.

When Bernie and I went to Fairmount Foundry in Hamburg, Pa., the plant manager and shop foreman both expressed admiration for the craftsmanship and beauty of the patterns. They were quite amazed that Bernie, as an amateur, had done such a fine job. Those of you who saw the patterns for the spoked pilot wheel for no. 11 know what I'm talking about. Wait until you see the driver center pattern!

All of the above is to remind us how fortunate we are that Bernie Perch is willing and able to manufacture patterns for us. Thanks, Bernie.
Title: Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Wayne Laepple on August 12, 2008, 08:28:15 PM
Hi all --

I have been corrected about my previous post by Bernie Perch. Two of the feet on the base will remain as is, while the others will be trimmed to match them. The feet will then serve to stand the base off no. 11's boiler. This serves two purposes. One is to lift the bell off the boiler and reduce the area of potential corrosion between the base and the boiler, and it will also lift the bell's base up to the depth of the lagging. The fore and aft feet were made longer on purpose, as I mentioned before, so the bell stands solidly on a floor or stand.

I learn something new every day.

Cheers -- Wayne
Title: Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Stephen Hussar on October 15, 2008, 09:16:30 PM
No 11's finished bell arrived over the weekend! Thank you Bernie and Wayne!

(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-8/342468/Finishedbell2.jpg)

Title: Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Vincent "Lightning" LeRow on November 19, 2008, 07:26:44 PM
Ok everyone,

I have looked over this forum and even tried digging in the Old Forum....

What is No. 11??
Title: Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Stephen Hussar on November 19, 2008, 07:55:58 PM
Hello, Vincent. No 11 will be a reproduction of WW&F No 7, to be built after No 9 is completed.

(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-8/342468/WWF_7_elevationneg_sm.jpg)
Title: Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Eric Bolton on November 19, 2008, 09:43:39 PM
Here are some of my drawings for the project. These are not the best quality pictures. I took them with a camera phone.

Engineer's side,
(http://c1.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/53/l_e8b3a3d54d6f42c5ab3a50f5757066f0.jpg)

Front,
(http://c1.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/17/l_eff663928594407b9b4fbc5ec506c188.jpg)

Rear,
(http://c4.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/57/l_e81f219d24c84f28a7004584ff381deb.jpg)

And technical mumbo jumbo,
(http://c3.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/20/l_a836f1cc70b14cf49b3ea171b433bc6e.jpg)
Title: Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Stephen Hussar on November 19, 2008, 11:02:28 PM
That's beautiful stuff Eric! Any chance I can convince you to take the original of the side view to a print shop with a full-size raster scanner?? (in between runs on the NJT of course!)  ;)
Title: Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Eric Bolton on November 19, 2008, 11:29:49 PM
That is a photocopy of the original. I have three that I have been meaning to mail up north but work hasnt left much time. All of the pictures are on one paper.
Title: Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Pete "Cosmo" Barrington on November 20, 2008, 04:41:51 AM
Can anyone tell me...
were the domes on #7 (or other engines) castings, or were they "pressed" into shape?
(Curious minds want to know. ;) )
Title: Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Stephen Hussar on November 20, 2008, 01:50:18 PM
They're made up of several pieces. I would guess that the saddle and top are castings and the cylindrical part was rolled...but I suppose they could have been castings as well. Hard to tell even from photos. Here's a frame taken by Gus Pratt from his 16mm footage.

(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-8/342468/GusNo7IDsm.jpg)

Title: Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Wayne Laepple on November 21, 2008, 01:08:50 AM
The steam dome is generally formed over a die and them riveted to the boiler shell. The top of the steam dome (the dome cap) is bolted down. It's necessary to give access to the throttle valve inside. The sand dome is a rolled tube fitted to a base that will sit atop the boiler. The top of this base is usually an inverted V to provide gravity feed to the sand tubes. The rounded top is a formed piece. Fancy fluted domes sometimes seen on old-time locomotives are a series of rings fitted over the tube.
Title: Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Pete "Cosmo" Barrington on November 21, 2008, 10:17:44 PM
Wow (!) I guess that answers that question.  ;)

That still-shot from the old movie sure makes it easier to see of what you speak.

Now, to figure out how sand domes were formed on BIGGER locomotives...
(but that may yet be a question for annother forum.  ;) )
Title: Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Paul Horky on November 22, 2008, 03:59:34 PM
I don't Know where you saw domes made up with rings fitted over a tube. Most domes I've seen were made up of castings top and bottom with a rolled tube center this is for both fluted and rounded domes these are mostly for looks.The actual steam dome that is part of the boiler is as mention a formed bottom and top ring with a cap eighter riveted or welded to a rolled tube then mounted to the boiler shell by riveting or welding.
Title: Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Pete "Cosmo" Barrington on November 22, 2008, 11:49:31 PM
Matt...

..that IS the idea! The 11 is to be a copy of the original 7 built up virtualy from scratch.

Who, exactly, is planing to build a replica of SR&RL 24? I know there's one version built in the UK from a previosly existing engine, and possibly annother built up almost from scratch. I belive one is on the Brecon Mountain line, not sure though.
Scroll down to the "Other Two Footers" topics and search there, or look up the older version of this forum (now archived in a "read only" status.)
Title: Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Mike Fox on November 22, 2008, 11:59:19 PM
I know one place that would love to have one. Check this out.
http://www.frolin.net/mmgs/srcl/ (http://www.frolin.net/mmgs/srcl/)
http://www.srclry.com/ (http://www.srclry.com/)
Title: Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Eric Bolton on November 23, 2008, 06:14:00 AM
No one is building the 24 to my knowledge. BMR is building a replica of SR&RL #10 and SR&RL #23. Matt my drawings are not blue prints. They are just what the locomotive is going to look like. Baldwin destroyed most of the drawings for the #7 (#11 is going to be an exact replica of the #7 but the new locomotive will continue the original numbering pattern) therefore a few members of the museum (myself included) have been working on "reengineering" the 7's blueprints based on the information we have. Lots to do before this project comes off the back burner. Also Matt please do us all a favor and try and put all your replies in one post not five seperate posts.
Title: Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Eric Bolton on November 24, 2008, 04:05:56 AM
The 10 and 23 are being built in England not the US. You can find the blue prints easy. They were printed in a book at some point in time. Also I'm sure the WW&F wouldnt be interested in building the 23 being its a SR&RL locomotive. Also again with the multiple posts.
Title: Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Stephen Hussar on November 26, 2008, 03:30:33 PM
Lots of incredible stuff going on "over there." I'm posting this absolutely gorgeous picture of Tornado, as it pertains to our building of reproductions, replicas, etc.,
with permission from photographer John Bowler. Thank you, John!

(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-8/342468/A1_copyright_John_Bowler.jpg)
Title: Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: James Patten on November 26, 2008, 05:07:01 PM
A website address on a steam locomotive's tender looks...very different.
Title: Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Ed Lecuyer on November 26, 2008, 05:09:28 PM
I understand that the web address will be removed when the final paint is put on the locomotive. It is going to be painted in an authentic livery.

Now, how would Jason feel if we put "www.wwfry.org" on the tender of #9!!
Title: Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Matthew Gustafson on December 20, 2008, 06:19:45 AM
When will the #11 Reconstruction project will fully start? ??? :)
Title: Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: James Patten on December 20, 2008, 12:42:57 PM
There's no "re"construction about it - this is a brand new engine, from brand new parts.

We have many other higher priority projects right now (bathrooms, etc etc), and we won't need a new loco for a while.  It will be a number of years before the project kicks into high gear.
Title: Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Bernie Perch on December 20, 2008, 03:08:41 PM
Matthew,

A considerable amount of "quiet background work" has been done on this locomotive and continues up to this point.  I have seen a number of posts involving people who do a lot of wishful thinking about new or reconstructed locomotives who don't have a clue as to the amount of work it takes to build a locomotive from scratch.  A considerable amount of engineering work and drawings have been made by Jason and others.  Wayne and myself have spent many hours just discussing the cylinder castings with Jason and visiting a commercial foundry and another pattern maker who is more capable that myself to do this job.

Recently I saw photos of failed casting projects which were heartbreaking.  This is why we are investigating getting this done commercially.  Who takes the hit when a $75,000 casting fails to pour properly?

I have built several foundry patterns for this locomotive and have started the drive wheel patterns.  Since I am involved in a local locomotive restoration project (CNJ 113), my WW&F stuff takes a back seat to this one and subsequently takes longer to get done.

Matthew, what you should do is start learning about patternmaking (there are many books available on the subject), and make one of the simple patterns for this project to see how much work is involved with each part.  We will need more people to do this, especially young guys like yourself who will be carrying on this preservation stuff when we can't do it anymore.

One more thing I would like to mention is costs.  The costs and tack ons at a commercial foundry will knock your socks off.  I got sticker shock when I got the final vouchers for the bell bracket castings.  The castings cost Wayne and myself just under $800.  I have since learned the name of a smaller, cheaper foundry, but when getting some of the big castings done, we will have to go commercial because of the amount of metal being poured and just for the sheer experience of those who do this every day.  Not all the work can be done by volunteers.

I have much more to say about this but I have to run.

Bernie

Title: Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Vincent "Lightning" LeRow on December 20, 2008, 03:40:59 PM
hey bernie, need any help with those drawings?  I just finished my CAD class and we spent over two months on drafting.  I've got an E sized board and would be willing to put some of my spare time into this. (that is, while i'm not railhunting  ;) )
Title: Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Bernie Perch on December 20, 2008, 09:25:42 PM
Vince,

As mentioned in the post above, Jason is doing the engineering and drawings--talk to him.  I make the patterns from his drawings.

Bernie
Title: Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Mike Fox on December 21, 2008, 02:16:08 AM
And what beautiful patterns they turn out to be.
Title: Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Bernie Perch on December 21, 2008, 02:42:28 AM
Mike,

Thank you, I appreciate it.  I sent photos to Stephen to post of my latest project--spread out over many months.  This was for CNJ 113.  I hope you find it interesting--a three chime step top whistle bell.

Bernie
Title: Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Matthew Gustafson on December 28, 2008, 06:44:11 PM
Here are some of my drawings for the project. These are not the best quality pictures. I took them with a camera phone.
Nice drawning of the future WW&F #11! Do anyone have any photos of BS&R #7 dressed up in WW&F #11 lettering by using photo-shop?
Title: Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Eric Bolton on December 28, 2008, 06:59:12 PM
The B&SR 7 and WW&F 7 really arent very close matches. Outside valve gear, different cab, different tank, different domes, ect.
Title: Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Ed Lecuyer on December 28, 2008, 07:10:14 PM
I *think* Matt meant WW&F #7 photoshopped as #11.
Title: Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Matthew Gustafson on December 28, 2008, 07:26:12 PM
Yep thats what I said!  :D  ;) :D
Title: Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Wayne Laepple on December 28, 2008, 08:35:07 PM
And, just for the record, B&SR no. 7 is nearly 7 tons heavier than WW&F no. 7.
Title: Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Eric Bolton on December 29, 2008, 12:48:48 AM
Also 4 feet longer.
Title: Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Matthew Gustafson on January 04, 2009, 07:02:31 PM
Does anyone have any Info on that? For what I do know that WW&F #11 is not as big as MNGM #7 & #8!   ::) :) ;)
Title: Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Mike Fox on January 04, 2009, 07:58:19 PM
It will be a replica of WW&F #7. If you can find any info for that, that will be the same as #11.
Title: Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Eric Bolton on January 04, 2009, 08:33:13 PM
Well technically the locomotive has no size because it does not exist.......yet. The locomotive when built will be built to as close to the original WW&F #7 as we can get. Therefore the measurements will be about the same as the 7. 7 had 33" drivers, roughly 40" diam boiler, 18' wheel base, was 30' 7" long, 10' fall and about 7' wide. It had 11x14 cylinders, weighed 56,000lbs, and had a tractive effort of 8300lbs.
Title: Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Pete "Cosmo" Barrington on January 04, 2009, 08:38:04 PM
Well, the extant #'s 7 & 8 HAVE been labeled as MNGRR #'s 7&8, IIRC.
I know they've also been painted B&H durring thier time at MNGRR.
(So you guys are BOTH right.  ;) )
Title: Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Pete "Cosmo" Barrington on January 04, 2009, 11:12:59 PM
I hear ya on that.
But remember,... whatever the loco, it's present owners are PART of that history!

(Hence, WW&F # 10 is NOW an actual WW&F locomotive. ;) )
Title: Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Scot Lawrence on January 05, 2009, 12:46:56 AM
Sorry I like to honor history more then the present.

That means you always refer to WW&F 9 as Sandy River #5? ;)
j/k..

I agree..nothing wrong with saying MNGRR 7 and 8..
that is their current status afterall..

Scot
Title: Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: James Patten on January 05, 2009, 01:23:56 AM
WW&F #11 weighs about 250 pounds at present, and could fill a (somewhat large) crate.  That's because it's two pony truck wheels (no tires), a headlight, a bell bracket, and a number plate.  Oh, and a few pounds of paper drawings, plus a bunch of files on people's computers (the files don't weigh anything measurable).

Much smaller than B&SR #7.
Title: Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Mike Fox on January 10, 2009, 11:58:29 PM
The weight on #11 just went up. The tires for the pilot truck showed up. They had them made at the same time as the tires for the rail car.

(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2006-11/1225939/100_1466.jpg)
Title: Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Robert Hale on January 14, 2009, 12:32:29 AM
Are you going to use the traditional way of fitting the tires by a gas-fired ring to heat it up then install?
Rob


(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2284/2178246251_c7165abed0_o.jpg)
Title: Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Mike Fox on January 14, 2009, 02:19:59 AM
Maybe. The tires have to get up to 400 degrees to expand enough to be installed on the wheel. Any hotter and I guess it starts to have adverse effects on the hardened steel. I am sure someone will film our adventures, perhaps even me.
Title: Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Mike the Choochoo Nix on January 14, 2009, 02:25:52 AM
You will press the wheels onto the axel before installing the tires won't you?  That is the right way, there were some posts on RYPN about that, the tire tightens the wheel onto the axel even tighter than the press fit.
Mike Nix
Title: Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Matthew Gustafson on January 14, 2009, 01:08:40 PM
Are you going to use the traditional way of fitting the tires by a gas-fired ring to heat it up then install?

Why do they always set a fire the locomotive wheels in the shops?  ??? ??? ???
Title: Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Mike Fox on January 14, 2009, 01:38:09 PM
Matt, they are expanding the metal. This makes the inside diameter a little larger. The tire is installed on the wheel and when the tire cools down, it tightens onto the wheel.

Mike Choo choo, that is my understanding. Jason figures it will be easier to contol the wheel if there was an axle attached to it.
Title: Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Erik Z. Missal on January 14, 2009, 11:17:03 PM
Hi,
When I worked at a shipyard, we put the coupling end on one of the shaft sections. We had electric heaters that were shaped to fit the outside of the coupling. The shaft coupling was heated to around 450 degrees, if I remember correctly and then pressed on using large threaded bolts. We only had one chance to get it right. The electric heaters were easy to use and control the temperature so it didn't overheat. Maybe we could get a similar type of heater.

Erik
Title: Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Jason M Lamontagne on January 15, 2009, 12:53:35 AM
Hello all,

We will be using a gas ring, fired with propane mixed with compressed air.  The ring has already been made by Vern Shaw and Jonathan St Mary.  We've been focusing heavy on the railcar lately- and hope to put tires on those wheels early next month.  I'll make an announcement here as I figure some might enjoy seeing this process.

Of course now we'll have 30 people there and something will go wrong.... sightons (spelling, John M.?)  Not much really can go wrong- usually only takes about 8 minutes to heat, then a couple seconds to drop on. 

Don't know when we'll do no 11's lead wheel- No 9 is so screaming for attention that No 11's first complete wheel probably ought to wait a bit.

see ya
Jason

see ya
Jason
Title: Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: John McNamara on January 15, 2009, 02:29:50 AM
sightons (spelling, John M.?) 

from: http://tmrc.mit.edu/dictionary.html

Psiton
    elementary particle carrying the sinister force. These particles emerge from the eyes of spectators, and even remote and future viewers (therefore, the number of psitons out of a video camera can be huge!). Since psitons carry the sinister force, then:

    The probability of success of an action/demonstration is inversely proportional to the number of psitons falling on it.

-John
Title: Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Gordon Cook on January 15, 2009, 02:32:36 PM
sightons (spelling, John M.?) 

from: http://tmrc.mit.edu/dictionary.html

Psiton
    elementary particle carrying the sinister force. These particles emerge from the eyes of spectators, and even remote and future viewers (therefore, the number of psitons out of a video camera can be huge!). Since psitons carry the sinister force, then:

    The probability of success of an action/demonstration is inversely proportional to the number of psitons falling on it.

-John
Hmmm, somewhere Murphy and Smoot are smiling...
 ::)
Title: Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Duncan Mackiewicz on January 15, 2009, 09:43:01 PM
Yup, Murphy said if something can go wrong, it will and at the worst possible time. I think that was his first and best known saying.
Duncan
Title: Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Ted Miles on January 31, 2009, 06:47:50 AM
Jason and all,

I am looking at the appendix in the back of the Moody book and it says that:

WW&F 7 was built by Baldwin as their C/N 40864 in 9-1907. the total engine weight was 56,000 or 23 tons; heaviest locomotive to run on the WW&F. She was a 2-4-4RT locomotive.

I think the locomotive was burned in the engine house fire and sat out the last years of operation.   

You are announcing quite a project there! only a handful of steam locomotives have been built from scratch in the United States. The most famous are the two opeerating 4-4-0s at Promontary National Historic Site in Utah. Of course being standard gauge they are somewhat larger.

But the British proved that they can do a new locomotive for main line operation. The Toronado has just entered service. She is a standard gauge Pacific!

But if you build enough parts you will end up some day with a steam locomotive! More power to you!

When the #9 is in steam I will even send you a donation for the new locomotive project!

Ted Miles
Title: Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Eric Bolton on February 01, 2009, 07:22:32 AM
7 was not the largest. The 6 was which was a 2-6-2. Also the 7 was 28 tons and yes it along with the 6 were caught in the engine house fire at Wiscasset.
Title: Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Matthew Gustafson on February 01, 2009, 03:57:44 PM
Was #6 larger the SR&RL 2-6-2 #23 & #24?  ??? ::) :)
Title: Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Eric Bolton on February 02, 2009, 05:19:59 AM
It was for sure not bigger then the 23. 23 was the largest two foot gauge locomotive built for use in the USA. My guess is that the 24 may also be larger as well.
Title: Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Bruce Mowbray on April 04, 2010, 03:08:18 PM
I'm not sure if this is the proper place to post this, Feel free Mr Moderator to move it if necessary.

I have been making some parts for the #11 under the management of Jason. It was decided that since the axles for the #9 are servicable (I will let Jason give you the details) that the material for the #9 axles have been turned into some key parts for the #11. Here are some of the parts.

This is the axle for the lead truck It has been rough turned one end at a time. Next it will be turned between centers to get everything exactly concentric.
Title: Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Bruce Mowbray on April 04, 2010, 03:11:47 PM
Next,

A main crank pin takes shape. To make these, I cut the material to the length of 2 pins. I then hold onto the rough material to make one pin, flip the material around and hold onto the finished end to make the second pin. When both ends are finished, I cut the two pins apart and finish up the saw cut ends.
Title: Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Bruce Mowbray on April 04, 2010, 03:17:15 PM
These are the main crank pins and the lead crank pins before parting. Once they are parted, the second end will be semi finished and they will be turned between centers to make them true. The main crank pins will be threaded at this time to accept the jamb nuts that hold the rod retainer rings on.
Title: Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Bruce Mowbray on April 04, 2010, 03:20:33 PM
Finally, after a full days work, all of the parts have been rough turned, parted, and the rod retaining caps have been cut.
If you have any questions, feel free to ask.

Bruce Mowbray
Springville, PA
Title: Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Stewart "Start" Rhine on April 04, 2010, 04:30:55 PM
Wow, those are beautiful.  Thanks for the update.
Title: Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Stephen Hussar on April 04, 2010, 06:54:10 PM
Awesome, Bruce!! Beautiful work...thanks for posting!

Stephen
Title: Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Bernie Perch on April 04, 2010, 08:10:54 PM
Bruce,

Absolutely beautiful work!  I have been looking for something to get me fired up in the pattern making department for this locomotive.  My Project CNJ 113 whistle project got completely out of hand but I should be finished with it shortly and get back to the driving wheel center patterns.  Your posts got my #11 adrenalin moving again.  I figured all energy was being directed to completing #9, so there wasn't much of a rush.  Now it is time to attack the pattern again.  I generally move faster when I see a need and some sort of deadline and you have set some things in place for me.  Also when I see others working on parts, I visualize the completed locomotive.  Up to this point I haven't been able to do this.

Is there anyone else out there working on parts for #11?

If I Googled Springville correctly, you live about 1 1/4 hours north of me here in White Haven.  Maybe we could get together and fire each other's enthusiasm.

Bernie
Title: Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Paul Horky on April 05, 2010, 02:28:46 PM
A question to you Bernie. Since you are going to make the pattern for the driver centers are they just spoked or do they have counter weights included?
Title: Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Vincent "Lightning" LeRow on April 05, 2010, 03:42:10 PM
Well, While not necessarilly parts, I have been doing fair amount of drafting.  Each one takes me about ten hours.  As nice as the drawings look, I don't think thats the kind of excitement your looking for.

I do agree seing parts is verry exciting!!!!  With that front axle done we could press on wheels and shrink on tires!  Now THATS worth getting fired up over!!
Title: Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Bernie Perch on April 05, 2010, 08:41:52 PM
Paul,

The lead drivers are spoked only.  There is enough weight in the crank to balance the rod.  I haven't looked at the drawings for a while, but there may be hollow areas in the crank(s) to accept lead.

The main drivers have counter weights.  I am going to make one pattern for both sets.  The pattern will come through with the counterweight attached, be rammed up in the foundry, and then the counterweight will be removed and the plain spoked drive wheel center will be rammed up.

Vince,

All parts of this project are important, the drawings being the first step without which we couldn't do all our work.  I have spent considerable amounts of time just studying the drawings I have.  Being a retired art teacher I appreciate the drawings very much.  They are the start of the dream!

Since this project seems to be taking off we should communicate more with each other to know what is currently happening.

Bern
Title: Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Stephen Hussar on April 05, 2010, 09:16:08 PM
Here's what Bernie's been working on...

(http://build11.org/images/480_drive_wheel_center_pattern_sm.jpg)
Title: Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Keith Taylor on April 05, 2010, 11:49:56 PM
I assume this is an outside frame locomotive with counterweights on seperate cranks outside the frames?
Keith
Title: Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Jason M Lamontagne on April 06, 2010, 12:25:51 AM
It's buried somewhere in this forum, but No 11 is a planned reconstruction of WW&F No 7, an outside frame 2-4-4 Baldwin of 28 tons.  We've been working on design and drawing for this project for many years- using the original erecting card, a smattering of BLW component drawings (not many), BLW standard practice books and numerous other locomotive and general design resources.  Bernie has been doing a spectacular job on pattern-making for several years now- completing a number plate, bell bracket, lead truck wheel center and now drive wheel centers.  Bernie also made the pattern, and had cast, No 10's number plate.  Eric Bolton, Vincent LeRow, Steve Smith and I have been doing finish drawings, all by hand on size C paper, as fast as I can kick out design sketches.  About 2/3 the drawings are complete, and the locomotive is completely designed (i.e. structurally and dimensionally figured out and sketched) except for boiler and brake rigging.  Lately I've been spending some time trying to figure the best way to manufacture equalizers. 

No 11 is an enormously fun project to work on, at least for me and I suspect the other guys involved.  The board is fully behind it- but no one makes any pretense about the project's priority.  No 9 is the priority right now- as promised to the membership for many years.  We hope that our infrastructure grows at the rate that the No 11 project progresses, such that 3 locomotives will be appropriate for our desired (typical) 2 train operation someday.  Our goals with No 11 at this time, as No 9 progresses, is to keep the project alive and progressing such that when No 9 is done, we're prepared to jump on some exciting parts of the project, which should in turn help with getting folks excited for fundraising.  For now that means getting the design and drawings wrapped up, getting some important patterns made (drive wheels and driving cranks), and getting a few juicy tidbits actually built (bell, lead truck wheel, etc). 

We're trying to be particularly careful with the project in regards to No 9- we are fully committed and excited about No 9 and don't want No 11 to overshadow those facts.  So for now it's a quiet but determined effort- it's not a secret but we're not shouting out loud (yet).

Jason
Title: Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Robert Hale on April 06, 2010, 03:15:29 AM
Will the bearing(s) be brass or roller? If they are brass, what are, if any, ways of lubricating the brass? I am thinking like grooves and such?
Rob
Title: Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Vincent "Lightning" LeRow on April 06, 2010, 03:10:58 PM
AFIK The bearings are going to be brass.  they are lubricated with a purple grease that is sqeazed down from a grease cup over the bearing.  Underneath the bearing is a grease cellar which helps lubricate the axle as well by catching the gease that rolls out of the bearing.  It's essentially the same way the rods get thier grease, with the little cup on top that you turn untill the grease oozes out the side oof the brearing.  At least thats the way #4 works.

Jason will know better and probably explain it better as well. I suggest PM'ing him for more and better information.
Title: Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Keith Taylor on April 06, 2010, 03:15:17 PM
Rob,
I have no idea what type of bearings are planned for No. 11...but standard practise for locomotives with plain friction bearings was to use bronze, not brass and the bronze was almost always lined with Babbitt metal. The Babbitt metal was hand scraped to fit the axle closely, and did have grooves chipped in to expedite oil flow.
Roller bearings present some problems, notably they are difficult to replace in the event of a failure. To change a roller bearing you have to remove the wheels from the axles. With Babbitt metal lined plain bearings you just drop the cellar, which is an oil reservoir at the bottom of the driving box, and you can then lift the bearing away from the axle without removing the wheels.
Keith
Title: Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Keith Taylor on April 06, 2010, 03:25:34 PM
AFIK The bearings are going to be brass.  they are lubricated with a purple grease that is sqeazed down from a grease cup over the bearing.  Underneath the bearing is a grease cellar which helps lubricate the axle as well by catching the gease that rolls out of the bearing.  It's essentially the same way the rods get thier grease, with the little cup on top that you turn untill the grease oozes out the side oof the brearing.  At least thats the way #4 works.


No. 10's rods are lubricated with oil, not grease. The rod oilers are replicas of Lunkenheimer cups that have an oil reservoir topped by a hemispherical chamber. As the locomotive moves down the tracks, oil splashes up into the hemisphere and some drops down into a feed tube that supplys the bearings.
Keith
Attached is a picture of the rod oilers when they were being made.
Title: Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Paul Horky on April 07, 2010, 02:15:18 AM
A question to Jason. Will the Main frame rails be fabed,cut, or cast. The origianal would have been cast. Now however with modern shop pratices either fabracation or cutting are prefured.
Title: Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Paul Horky on April 07, 2010, 02:31:45 AM
Another question to Bernie from the picture it looks like the counter weights are to be detachable additions to the main pattern. Is this correct? Also will you or someone else be making a pattern for the outside counter weight or will these be cut and machined from platte steel?
Title: Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Bernie Perch on April 07, 2010, 03:24:05 AM
Paul,

You are correct, the counterweignts will be removable from the patterns.  I mentioned ramming up the main drivers first, because I assume there may be some damage to the counterweights when they are removed.  It is also possible that some filler will have to be removed at the foundry and sanding done before the lead driver centers are cast.  If we were making many castings, then it would be wise to have two separate sets of patterns.

I have the drawings for the cranks and a while ago had some discussion with Jason about them.  It is my intent to make these patterns too, but as I do most of these by hand, I would like to say that I would like to get the driver center patterns done first and then go from there.  The cranks are distinctly different and two separate patterns will be made for them.

Bernie
Title: Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Jason M Lamontagne on April 07, 2010, 11:38:02 AM
We're currently planning on waterjet cutting the frames from 3" plate- though it's still some time away.  Crank/counterweights will be cast of steel. 

Jason
Title: Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Stephen Hussar on August 28, 2010, 01:24:51 PM
Although he's been just a tad busy with a certain CNJ 0-6-0 restoration in Minersville, PA... Bernie has continued to plug away on the wheel center patterns for the No 11 project. I may be getting ahead of myself, but it's going to be absolutely thrilling sweating tires onto the castings born from these!

(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-8/342468/WWFRR_11Drivercenterpatternsprogress002sm.jpg)

(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-8/342468/WWFRR_11Drivercenterpatternsprogress001sm.jpg)

(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-8/342468/WWFRR_11Drivercenterpatternsprogress003sm.jpg)
Title: Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Bernie Perch on August 28, 2010, 11:34:09 PM
All,

Thanx Stephen for posting the photos.  I had to put this project on the back burner because I have too many projects going, and the ones that have a certain completion time must be done first.  I am now back to the #11 project and it would be nice if the plain spoked pattern would be done in time for the work weekend.  I was originally planning to make just one pattern with removable counterweights, but decided it was only a little more work just to make two patterns.  I used the various plies of the plain pattern to lay out the counterweighted one and it should take less time.  It would be nice to see all these patterns being used for more than one locomotive.

One project that took mountains of time was the CNJ whistle project.  The plan was to make only two whistle bells.  In the end we cast 11 and I finished ten up to 220 grit finish.  I mirror finished mine.

For anyone interested, we should be putting a fire in CNJ 113's boiler in a month or so.  I have been looking forward to that for a long time (over 10 years).

Bernie

Title: Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Robert Hale on August 29, 2010, 04:29:16 AM
Are the patterns adjusted for shrinkage? Just curious as I would think that since they will be machined the measurements don't have to be as precise?
Title: Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Bernie Perch on August 29, 2010, 11:30:42 AM
Robert,

Yes, they are adjusted for shrinkage.  Jason and I discussed the outside diameter to allow for shrinkage.  All the surfaces that are to be machined are also thicker.  I tend to leave more metal available for these two circumstances than most patternmakers would.  My philosophy is that it is easy to take metal away from a casting than to add it on.  Since these are not for any production runs where time is a factor, I don't concern myself for how long it takes to machine the parts (the machinist may feel differently and years ago, one reminded me that there was way too much metal to be taken off).

I would note that I am not a commercial patternmaker.  I am "self taught" and learned by trial and error and asking questions at the foundry, the school where I worked and alot of reading.  Also each foundry has its own ideas and I try to adjust to what they want.  I could go on and on about this, but way back in this forum I wrote much about this.

If the #11 project is to be finished in a timely fashion, we are going to need more patternmakers and machinists and, of course, wheelbarrows of money.  This is why the display is in the freight house--to show that we are serious about this project and will really attack it when #9 is finished.


Bernie
Title: Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Paul Horky on August 29, 2010, 04:24:35 PM
Bernie
 Since the machineing will most likely be done by Jason if he is ok with the amount of materal that needs to be removed then what is the problem? By the way great looking work!!!!!!!
Title: Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Robert Hale on August 29, 2010, 06:52:51 PM
Are the centers pressed on to the axle or keyed? I would love to learn how to make patterns and castings. Has lost-foam casting ever been talked about?
Title: Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: James Patten on August 29, 2010, 09:47:02 PM
I think we used lost-foam for the casting for #9's new frame piece.  The first place didn't do so great a job.  The second place did better, but unless the place knows what their doing I don't think lost-foam is a great solution.
Title: Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Mike Fox on August 29, 2010, 10:38:51 PM
B E A utiful Bernie. Keep up the great work.
Title: Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Bernie Perch on August 29, 2010, 10:49:34 PM
All,

To answer a few questiions:

I believe the axles will be keyed and pressed on.  I stand corrected on that one.

As for too much metal to machine, that will have to be directed to Jason.  It really isn't really THAT MUCH metal.  The only thing he commented was that he wanted the axle holes cored out on the driver centers to save time.  I did not do that on the leading truck/railcar wheel centers because they were to be machined to two sizes.  I could have probably cored it for the smaller size.  I also ask myself which takes more time--making the core box or drilling and finishing a solid casting.  If favors the coring process as the number of castings increases.

As for learning how to make patterns:  read one of the many books out there, make a simple pattern, get it cast and go from there.  For what we are doing, it is not rocket science.  The pattern that will be a real headache will be for the cylinders if we finally decide to cast them.  We still haven't figured out that one, but that is a ways off.

Bernie
Title: Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Jason M Lamontagne on August 29, 2010, 11:36:59 PM
Indeed beautiful work, Bernie.

Bernie is great at communicating the needs of the project well before making things final, and we had solid conversations on shrinkage and machining allowance.  Everything he has pointed out is right on-- if we were making engine block castings for 10,000 model T's, there'd be less machine allowance- but we're designing this pattern for one 4-drivered locomotive, so an extra 1/4" to shave off here and there is well worth making sure the castings will end up being right (after casting flaws, etc).  If they're used for more locomotives- great, I'd love to see that too, but any subsequent project will need to fit around the patterns made for this, the main project.

James is right about lost foam-- the first casting wasn't acceptable.  The second casting was made from a conventional mold packed around a styrofoam pattern- the pattern was removed before the pour.  I wasn't real pleased with this either as it was obvious that the pattern took a beating during the molding as some of the geometry was lost.  I actually think lost foam, with a foundry familiar with proper venting, is better as the geometry would be better maintained.  Bernie's wood patterns do two things that foam doesn't:  it's a great representation of how they did it- we firmly believe that just having a steam locomotive in the end is not good enough, we want a machine that represents the era of the original, as much as we can anyway.  and 2- it's permenant value; these patterns will be available for another project- which hopefully will serve as the excuse for another project someday. 

Bernie has said it right- we are focused on, and need to follow through on No 9- then we're going to tackle this.  One step at a time- great to see Bernie's steps in action!

Jason
Title: Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Robert Hale on August 30, 2010, 04:46:52 PM
Where are the crankpin bosses? Is number 11 inside or outside framed? I forget...........
Title: Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Stewart "Start" Rhine on August 30, 2010, 05:07:19 PM
Robert,  Since Engine 11 will built along the same lines as the original WW&F number 7 it will be an outside frame locomotive.

Stewart
Title: Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Stephen Hussar on August 30, 2010, 08:42:19 PM
Since you brought them up ;D ...here's a shot of No 11's crankpins, which were expertly machined by Bruce Mowbray.

(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-8/342468/No11cranksbyBruce_photoSJHsm.jpg)
Title: Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Robert Hale on August 30, 2010, 09:00:25 PM
Nice work. What type of steel was used for the pins?
Speaking of metals, will #9 and #11 use modern types of steel rather than historical types? I know cast iron is not a great metal to use anymore due to the fragile temperment it has. Ahhhh, educating myself on these topics is great mind excercise!!
Title: Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Pete "Cosmo" Barrington on August 31, 2010, 01:01:06 AM
I beleive the crank pins were made from stock originally obtained for but not used for the axles on the wheelsets that ate now complete. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.
I agree with you that educating oneself about these things is a challenging yet worthwhile pursuit.
I also agree that the focus should be where it is, on completing #9 first. That said, I cannot help but feel renewed anxiousness for #9 to be completed every time I see new parts show up for #11. Once she's finished, that  is going to be one heckova' engine! ;D
Title: Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Jason M Lamontagne on August 31, 2010, 01:54:45 AM
Material choice is a deep subject with no consise answer.  The broadest brush is that a variety of materials are required in a steam locomotive based on the specific purpose- from gray cast iron to cast steel, mild steel both cold and hot rolled, bronze, and plenty more.  A more indepth look shows that each of these "kinds" of material are generic descriptions at best- there are specific alloys and manufacture techniques for any of these metals.  Depending on the purpose of the component- we are either not concerned with the specifics (simply stating 'gray cast iron' is good enough for a bell bracket), or very concerned with the specifics (we are using AISI 4140 Hot-Rolled Annealed for axles and crank pins).  Critical components not only get their material very carefully specified but a record of the material's manufacture, including its actual chemical makeup and record of mechanical testing done, is retained by us to be part of a final construction package (someday). 

Cast iron can be brittle and is far weaker in tension than in compression- for this reason it was never used for components subject to these stresses.  It is still the only logical choice for many components.  We have considered using ductile cast iron in place of cast steel for some components- with a monetary advantage but the disadvantage of not being weldable in case of a defect.  Jury's still out- we may do some this way but keep the critical pieces in steel. 

Generally speaking, we'd like No 11 to be built similar to the way it was done- using castings where castings were used, forgings where forgings were used.  Some restrictions will force us to bend on some of that- but we'll be as true as we can. 

Enough rambling...

Jason
Title: Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Bernie Perch on August 31, 2010, 10:47:40 AM
Pete, who expressed concern about #11's parts slowing up #9's progress and others with the same opinion.

I, Wayne, and Bruce live down here in Pennsylvania and have little ability to physically work on #9 and most of her parts are made.  For myself, I have little desire to work on #9 either.  I like to make new parts and for most of my hobby life have been making foundry patterns for the organizations I have been involved with.  I have also found that people who work away from the base of operations and are working in their own shops are invisible most of the time (like myself) and are not appreciated by some of the people doing the every day grunt work.  This attitude caused me to leave an organization and running steam and I pray that it doesn't rear its ugly head at the WW&F.

As far as I can ascertain, the only physical work done on site to #11 was the machining of the wheel center, pressing on the axles and shrinking on the tires and this was done in conjunction with the railcar and took up little time from #9.

The rest of the work was probably done off site and this includes all the drawings, all of the bell work, the builders and number plates and finish, the leading wheel center pattern, the driver patterns and the axle and pins.  I don't think any of this in any way interferred with #9's progress.


If all this work wasn't done on #11, what would it be--just someone's distant dream which I hear other people ramble about on other forums about their dream locomotives?

Bernie
Title: Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Pete "Cosmo" Barrington on August 31, 2010, 11:42:07 PM
Bernie,
I think you read me backwards. I am anxious (as everybody else) for #9 to get finished, but I also believe that #11 is just as important. Not just to the museum, but to the future of steam operations in the US, and perhaps elsewhere.
The products forged from your patterns are TOP NOTCH quality work and your dedication to them and the steam/RR community is beyond admirable.
My anxiousness is for us to hurry up and finish the work on #9 which is holding up #11!
I know that these things will all come in time, but in no way did I mean to infer that your work on #11 was in any way holding up necessary work on #9. I realize the major parts necessary for #9 are already on-site and, knowing how far CT is from Maine, I can understand why you continue your work in PA, even farther away from Maine.
That being said, it was a pleasure to have met you earlier this spring and to have seen the whistle casting that I had only previously seen in pictures.
Again, Bernie, your work is both important and outstanding.
Keep up the good work!
Pete
Title: Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Bruce Mowbray on September 10, 2010, 12:57:14 PM
It's been a while since I posted here and here is a good place to get back into the swing now that summer is over.

 As Jason mentioned, the material used for the pins was chosen for it's characteristics. It just so happens that it's the same material used for axles. Also, it was about the same diameter for both parts. Originally, I was to make all of the the axles for #11. It was later decided to make the crank pins. So I just used the chosen material to make the crank pins instead.

Great work on the patterns Bernie. Am I sensing another circular "backshop" style BBQ in the spring?. Right now I am making parts for the big lathe at the WW&F shops so that future projects, like #11's wheelsets, will go smoother. I will be coming up this fall to get that machine back in running order. My buddy Ed G. and I plan to spend some time on the machine improving some of it's less than desirable traits.

 Removing 1/4 to 1/2" of material from parts as big as wheel centers is not a big deal. When not in mass production, it's better to have more than enough material to machine off rather than not enough. This eliminates some of the "we shoulda' left more meat on in that area" discussions. It's far easier to take material off than to add some on.

 As far as taking time away from the #9. Like someone said, it's easier to make parts from afar to engineered drawings for a new locomotive that will be built from scratch where known fits can be predetermined.  I live in PA and to travel to Maine for more than a couple of weekends a year is difficult for me. I have a desire to help the WW&F museum achieve it's goal by offering my machining experience. I can do that by making parts here in PA and bringing them up when I can or shipping them with someone who will be Maine bound. The #9 is up there in Maine and many of the parts are already there awaiting rehab. This rehab requires having the mating part(s) on hand to check for fit and operation along with decisions being made on whether to make new parts or reuse the old ones.

 Also, to have a big part of the #11 on hand is good incentive for some to keep the project moving forward. It shows that the museum is serious about building the #11. In the not for profit museum world, this is a good "seed" for getting the funding needed to keep the project moving forward. When benefactors and granters see their donations become something tangible, they feel good about donating again.

 Time to go off to the shop and make some chips.

Looking forward to my next visit.

Bruce Mowbray
Springville, PA
Title: Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Glenn Byron on September 10, 2010, 05:10:18 PM
Hi Bruce, I'm a vendor at the AACA Fall Meet in Hershey, Pa. and will be running a motor home from Maine to PA by way of I-84 to Scranton and then down I-81 on Oct. 5.  Then on Oct. 9 we run I-78 over to NJ for a quick visit on the way back to Maine.  My motorhome is equipped to haul a trailer with a Reese Hitch, and the large plug in for brakes. I can't find Springville, PA in my Atlas, but if I can help in any way, let me know by email:  glenns@tdstelme.net   Glenn  Byron, Smithfield, ME. (Belgrade Lakes area)  There are several other Maine old auto nuts who also make this annual pilgrimage for the holy days of Hershey,the largest car show in the world.  Anything that can save the museum a buck will help a little.
Title: Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Bruce Mowbray on September 12, 2010, 10:29:31 AM
Glenn,
 Thanks for the offer. I may just take you up on it. I will be done with the parts for the bog lathe in the next day or so. If I find it may be a while before I can get up to Maine, I may have you bring the parts. My friend Ed may be visiting me sometime this fall, and I could send the parts with him. I may even get up there sometime this month. Either way, I'll keep you in mind.

Bruce
Title: Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Matthew Gustafson on September 27, 2010, 08:29:56 PM
Is #11's restoration going to kick into full swing after #9 is restored? Just wondering?  ???
Title: Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Jason M Lamontagne on September 27, 2010, 11:31:10 PM
We anticipate ramping the project up considerably after No 9 is complete- both with a lot more work at Sheepscot Station and with direct fundraising efforts.  The current effort is establishing the project as real and definite- so when we really start asking for money- we'll already be well ahead of a dream on paper.

As with all projects at the railroad- No 11 will fit in with other museum priorities- and won't 'bump' everything out of the way.  A direct effort will ensue, however.

Jason
Title: Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Mike Fox on September 27, 2010, 11:36:16 PM
#11 isn't a restoration. It is the construction of an all new locomotive, pattened after the original WW&F #7. This was a 2-4-4T outside frame Baldwin, weighing 28 Tons. Slightly Smaller than B&SR 7 and 8.
Title: Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Stephen Hussar on September 29, 2010, 12:23:10 PM
All, here is the latest from Bernie's pattern shop...the email simply read, "ready for Maine" -I had to smile at the simplicity of the message -given how complex this pattern is, and how much work obviously went into it. Simply gorgeous, Bernie! Thank you!

(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-8/342468/WWFRR_11Drivercenterpatternsprogress012sm.jpg)

Title: Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Dana Deering on September 29, 2010, 01:45:21 PM
Hey Bernie,

     I spend as much time as I can spare doing grunt work at Sheepscot and I stand in awe of your work and that of Bruce, and the many other extremely talented artists "from away" who are doing yeoman's work for the WW&F.  I am grateful for the contributions from you and your pattern work, Wayne L. and all of the "stuff" he locates and donates to the museum, to Stewart when he lived away, to the Mass contingent, to Steve H. our master of the photographic canvas, and to all of the members from far away who give 100% of the time they can spare either at home or on site, to make our mutual dream come true.  The thing I like most about all of you/us is that we seem to hold that common dream of restoring a Maine two footer and we don't lose sight of the dream even with all of the personalities and egos involved (and we all have one of each!). We seem to have a real band of kindred spirits in this organization. As one whose talents are limited to pounding spikes and shoveling ballast and a bit of dabbling in a few other areas, I count us lucky to have each and every one of you and I take off my virtual hat to all of you and say:  Thanks a million for helping make MY dream come true with all of your fantastic work!  No one takes you for granted.
Title: Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Mike Fox on October 02, 2010, 01:58:53 AM
Bernie,
  The only thing I'd like to see more than your pattern rolling across a floor is seeing the actual wheels turning on #11. Looks beautiful. We are going to have to display all these great patterns when the loco is complete. Thanks for all the work you put into them.



Title: Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Bernie Perch on October 02, 2010, 10:40:54 AM
Dana,

I really appreciate your comments.  Whenever you post something like this, it represents a lot of deep perception and insight into the volunteer situation at the WW&F.  Whenever I came there for the work weekends I have felt perfectly at home and right from the first visit became involved with #11/railcar projects.  I don't know if the work weekend sessions are unique to the WW&F or not, but I do not see any references to any others on the few forums I read. I hope the situation stays the same.  By unique I mean that everybody is welcome to work, not just members.  I am familiar with the sessions at the EBT and the C&TS.

I know that display space is extremely limited, but it would be nice if ALL the patterns and parts for #11 could be currently displayed.  It would be a little more impressive and show that there is a deep commitment to the project already.  I know that the WW&F is not pushing getting money for this project yet, but if there are any of those people out there who keep talking about building new locomotives would contribute a little toward getting turning stock, Bruce could be "turning" out many more parts.  I have personally supplied all the plywood, materials and tools for my patterns and Wayne and I paid for the bell bracket, and Stephen purchased the plates, and this has added up to many hundreds of dollars toward the project already (I don't keep a record as it would probably scare me).

Bernie

Title: Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Win Nowell on October 02, 2010, 02:13:43 PM
Bernie, these patterns belong in an Art Gallery, not buried in a sand box.

As a suggestion, how about setting up a site where photos of all the patterns and parts could be displayed as they are completed.
We certainly don't have enough space to display them properly on the property at the present time. That may be an enducement to some to contribute to a #11 fund although this shouldn't draw funds away from the current hot projects but obviously money is being funnelled to #11 by those in the know and those who are interested.

Win Nowell
Title: Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Stephen Hussar on October 03, 2010, 12:57:52 AM
Here's another picture (with Bernie in it!) that shows the scale of this pattern!!

(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-8/342468/WWFRR_11Drivercenterpatternsprogress011sm.jpg)
Title: Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Pete "Cosmo" Barrington on October 04, 2010, 12:30:50 AM
Incredible!
   I have to seriously reign in my own excitement when I see photos like the above, otherwise I'd be all "giggly and jiggly" like a schoolgirl!  ;)
   That being said, I don't think it's possible to overstate the importance of this project to the world of preservation at large, railroading or otherwise. The implication is that not only can we build a locomotive from the railhead up, we could, if necessary, duplicate any part necessary (ie: a cracked drive-wheel core) to keep the existing ones running.
   I understand that the museum and it's BOD have chosen to handle the #11 project with discretion at this time and I understand why, but that only makes me look forward that much more to the day when WW&FRR makes  "The Big Announcement" to the world about #11. I can only imagine the jaw-dropping and eye bugging that will occur later.
   To date, there have only been three "from scratch" steam locomotives built in recent history (that have gotten any serious attention, at least.) The A-1 "Peppercorn," the "CPRR Leviathan," and the 3' ga. 2-4-4 (whose name is on the tip of my tongue right now.) There may have been others (possibly Welsh 2'?) and I do not mean to take away from them as such, but I think we all can agree that such projects are indeed rare.
   The possibilities of what projects could follow this one are even more staggering! Weather from or for WW&F or another such group, the idea that a 2' locomotive can be built from scratch invites us to beleive it possible for us to someday see SR&RL engines like #10 or #24 one-day roam the backwoods again.
Who knows what will follow? Nobody can ever say for certain, but those of us who dream of such things can now feel a certain sense of validation for our dreaming.
I will go as far as saying that I'm willing to be the first to contribute to a #11 fund if and when it is established, even so far as to earmark a donation as such in order to make it so. I may even attempt to do so this weekend.
In the meantime, I look forward to seeing the results of Bernie's fine work gracing the shop-floor in person, hopefully before this time next year.
Thank you Bernie and Bruce for giving life to our dreams.
Title: Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Stephen Hussar on June 16, 2011, 11:59:08 AM
Absolutely beautiful -completed counterweight drive wheel center patterns from Bernie's shop... I've got some stills and video of Bernie working on these, which I hope to edit and post soon! Thanks, Bernie!!

(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-8/342468/WWFCounterweightdrivewheelcenter003sm.jpg)

(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-8/342468/WWFCounterweightdrivewheelcernter004sm.jpg)
Title: Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Bernie Perch on June 16, 2011, 03:22:43 PM
Thanx Stephen for posting these photos.  The work on these actually started before the plain spoked driver center patterns were finished, so it has been a long haul.  What I look forward to is seeing #9 finished and running and getting the #11 project off the back burner.  There are several of us just chomping at the bit to get this project moving along.  I am working on the core box for these patterns, and the next are the cranks.  I hope they can be cast in 2012 and the machining can start.

Bernie
Title: Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Dave Crow on June 16, 2011, 05:16:34 PM
Is the core box used to make the counterweight portion hollow?

Will the journal boxes be cast?

Your patterns all look too pretty to use!

Dave Crow
Title: Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Bernie Perch on June 16, 2011, 07:37:26 PM
Dave,

The counterweights on the driver center will be cast solid.  The faces on the counterweights are thicker on the pattern and the castings will be machine faced to adjust somewhat the balancing forces.  I haven't fully discussed the cranks with Jason, but at least the ones on the main drivers will be cored hollow to pour in lead to adjust the counterbalancing.  I do not know if the cranks on the lead drivers will be hollow or cast solid at this time.  If you saw the pattern for the lead driver centers, there was no counterbalance on them at all.  I will be starting the patterns for the cranks in a month or so.

The core box I am making now is for the axle holes.  The core print is the nub in the center of the pattern.  This is usually painted yellow or orange to indicate a core.  For display purposes I chose not to do this to keep the patterns "pretty".  It will probably be painted by someone up there before it goes to the foundry, along with the inside of the core box.  I did paint the core prints and core box for the bell bracket.

Jason will have to answer the journal question.  At the Strasburg RR shops, they have made journal boxes out of solid slabs.  The crown brass is machined from hollow round stock rather than from a casting.  I visited the shops recently and saw some blanks for the crown brasses on the floor.  This eliminates hitting air pockets in a casting.

Bernie
Title: Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Stephen Hussar on June 17, 2011, 12:15:37 AM
Behind the scenes, a couple of months ago in Bernie's shop...

(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-8/342468/Berniebandsaw_sm.jpg)
Title: Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Stephen Hussar on June 17, 2011, 11:43:17 AM
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-8/342468/BPwheelvertdremel_sm.jpg)
Title: Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Bruce Mowbray on June 17, 2011, 12:36:47 PM
Journal boxes in the 2 foot gauge size could easily be made from bar stock. If they were going to be cast, I would make them of cast steel. This gives the shop folks the opportunity easily to weld them up if they break or get worn. Even wheel centers and truck frame parts should be made from steel castings for the same reason - ease of repair and rebuild when necessary. In the journal boxes I repaired for the 0-6-0 I am working on, I chose to use continuous cast bronze tube for the crown brasses. With the aid of a CAD drawing, I figure out the ID and OD of the material so that I can get 2 brasses out of a round tube. This cuts the material cost by 1/3 since the brasses go a little more than 1/2 way around the axle.

Bruce

Bernie, Beautiful pattern work!! It was nice to see you up at ST. Wish I had more time to chat with you. Maybe next time.
Title: Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Stephen Hussar on November 05, 2011, 07:49:16 PM
All, more phenomenal pattern work by Bernie Perch. Bernie brought this one up last month, but I think everyone was so blown away by "the whistle"  8) that this gorgeous pattern slipped under most people's radar. Since this one's got the counterweight, I decided to bring it into the shop and set it next to No 9's drivers. And with No 9 coming back together, we're actually getting close to casting these!

(http://stephenhussar.smugmug.com/photos/i-zSknw24/0/L/i-zSknw24-L.jpg)
Title: Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Bernie Perch on November 06, 2011, 12:14:19 AM
Stephen,

Thanx for posting the picture of the comparison of the drivers.  Except for when we blew the whistle for the first time, I generally kept a low profile even though most of the time of the work weekend I was walking a foot off the ground.  The wood for the cranks arrived and I plan to start them shortly.  I am looking forward to when the #11 project physically starts.  It's been a long wait for me (since Oct. 2006) when I first talked to Jason about the project, and longer for those who were working on the drawings.

To start enticing those who may be supporting the project moneywise, maybe you should show a photo of all the patterns (3 wheel centers, bell bracket) and all the parts which have been made (lead truck wheels and axle, machine work by Bruce, bell and cradle, and plates) or accumulated (headlight and ?) to show that we are really serious about this project.

Bernie
Title: Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Stephen Hussar on November 06, 2011, 01:49:30 PM
Thanks, Bernie -I'll try and put something like that together. Here are a few pics taken in Bernie's shop during the creation of this pattern...

(http://stephenhussar.smugmug.com/photos/i-3mdtwg8/1/L/i-3mdtwg8-L.jpg)

(http://stephenhussar.smugmug.com/photos/i-MxtcwHd/1/L/i-MxtcwHd-L.jpg)

(http://stephenhussar.smugmug.com/photos/i-tTtchmc/1/L/i-tTtchmc-L.jpg)
Title: Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Thor Windbergs on November 21, 2011, 06:44:52 AM
I did a short search of the group and didn't find a really description of the Design of the No.11 which pattern, Locomotive builder is being copied? Are there any complete CAD or illustration of the project? Have you considered releasing the drawings to the modeling world to create interest and excitement, people could buy copies of the drawings with receipts going to the project and then when No.11 becomes public then people can show up with their models to pose...

Stephan please keep posting more pictures of the No.9 rebuild they are great quality and show cool details that you would never see like how the frame has extra bolt in piece for the cylinder saddle, not baldwin practice...

cheers
Thor
www.thorsteamworld.com
Title: Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: James Patten on November 21, 2011, 12:13:27 PM
Thor, Loco 11 is a copy of the WW&F's locomotive #7, a Baldwin-built engine.  #7 was a "modified Forney" - a 2-4-4 RT.  We have a set of plans which would have come from the Baldwin archives (which I believe is located at RR Museum of Pennsylvania).  The archive owners would have the exclusive rights to reprint the plans, not us.  Nice thought, though.
Title: Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Stephen Hussar on November 21, 2011, 01:08:44 PM
James et al, I believe the DeGolyer Library at SMU has most of the Baldwin steam archives...
http://smu.edu/cul/degolyer/collections2.htm

Stephen
Title: Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Keith Taylor on November 21, 2011, 02:47:27 PM
I believe that what the RR Museum of the State of Pennsylvania has, is the Broadbelt collection of glass plate negatives of Baldwin builder's photographs. A good place to get a copy of the builder's photo...as the museum sells copies. Those old glass plate negatives give you remarkable detail.

Keith
Title: Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Steve Smith on November 25, 2011, 03:07:43 AM
Stephen....Hussar, that is: Some years back you posted a photo of WW&F No. 7 in which you had changed the number on the cab from 7 to 11, I guess with Photoshop. As I recall, it was a nice picture. Would you perhaps still have that image? I was thinking it might be interesting to Thor, and to others to have started visiting the Forum since that time.
Title: Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Steve Smith on November 25, 2011, 04:11:03 AM
Ooops! I forgot that the picture is already in the Build No. 11 section of the WW&F website. Sorry 'bout that.
Title: Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Stephen Hussar on November 25, 2011, 12:10:34 PM
(http://stephenhussar.smugmug.com/photos/i-NKW6hM2/0/M/i-NKW6hM2-M.jpg)
Title: Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Thor Windbergs on December 01, 2011, 06:59:35 AM
Hi Guys,
Thanks for the feed back, just found the specs for No.7 and 2-6-2 No.6 in the Baldwin order books. If anybody doesn't have these let me know I will gladly send you the zoomed and cropped pdfs that I secretly prepare at work... ::)

So for future projects and documentation of our locomotives in Brazil, I'd like to ask the group if anyone knows of drawings or detail pictures of the Eames vacuum brake equipment that was delivered on a lot of the Maine 2fters? We found the original patent documents which have pretty good illustrations but not the same as drawings or of scalable pictures.
I have seen reference to Sandy River & Rangeley Lakes Railroad and Predecessors, Equipment and Manufacturers, Vol. I or II by Jerry DeVos. which said something about Eames but at $60 and oversees shipping it is alot on a gamble. Can someone recommend a source, book or confirm that there is enough info to worth it?

I am scouring the Baldwin records for other 2ft/60cm engines and there are some interesting ones coming to light in Mexico and other South American customers, searching for them would be hard since most were bought through brokers so I find just going through the records page by page is best. If anyone is interest I will share.

Two more questions, anybody have experience ordering pictures and alike from Pennsy Museum Broadbelt collection? I can't seem to find an indication of typical prices, delivery times and payment options.

Last question, anybody have an idea which 2-4-4 Bachmann used as the prototype for their outside frame models or is it a cross between inside/outside locos?

Thanks
Thor
Title: Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Dave Crow on December 01, 2011, 12:34:37 PM
Thor,
If you are able to access Google, I found some great drawings by searching for "Eames Vacuum Air Brakes" and "Eames Vacuum Air Brake Ejector".  Take a look at this link: 

http://books.google.com/books?id=Ah1PAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA141&dq=Eames+Vacuum+Air+Brake+Ejector&hl=en#v=onepage&q=Eames%20Vacuum%20Air%20Brake%20Ejector&f=false


Dave Crow
Title: Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Richard "Steam" Symmes on January 06, 2012, 10:39:42 PM
I know that various parts are being produced for the planned WW&F locomotive #11.  Has a dedicated building fund been created to set money aside so that when work begins in earnest there will be funds on hand?  I'm sure many members and friends are eagerly awaiting the completion of #9 so that the new locomotive project can move into the shop. And I'm equally sure they'd be willing to toss in some money up front.

May donations be made specifically for that purpose and so noted, or will that add too much to the bookkeeping?  I think that it's never too early to get a jump on what probably will be a long project, and get some funding in the bank. What say you all?

Richard
Title: Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Stephen Hussar on January 06, 2012, 11:01:16 PM
Dick, it is an official project, and there is a "dedicated column" in the books for No 11 funding -so donations toward No 11 are happily accepted! Good timing for your posting as we're almost ready to start fundraising in earnest!

Stephen
Title: Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Richard "Steam" Symmes on January 07, 2012, 12:21:30 AM
Well that's good news.  At the same time, we don't want to shortchange other ongoing projects which may need a final boost over the top. 

If every member were to donate just 11% (#11, get it?) of their tax refund when it comes back in April, I'll bet we could put a nice tidy sum in that column of the bookkeeper's ledger.  What do you think?  I'd be up for it. How many others can we get to make a similar pledge?

Richard

Title: Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Bernie Perch on January 07, 2012, 12:23:01 AM
During the annual fund raiser, I requested that mine go to the #11 project and my thank you note stated that it did go into that fund. 

Bernie
Title: Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Richard "Steam" Symmes on January 07, 2012, 12:43:55 AM
How much is in that fund at present?

Richard
Title: Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Mike Fox on January 07, 2012, 02:17:15 AM
As much as I'd like to agree, if we all gave to #11, the rest of the major projects would become underfunded. We have #9 to finish, bathrooms to construct and a parking lot to build before #11 will show up. And that list could also include a Roundhouse and Turntable to keep the Locomotives in. It is great to keep some funding going for this project, so it continues to progress, but will be quite a while before I earmark any of my donations for it.
Title: Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: James Patten on January 07, 2012, 02:36:49 AM
How much is in that fund at present?

We have $50 in the #11 fund right now.
Title: Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Richard "Steam" Symmes on January 07, 2012, 03:18:15 AM
FIFTY?   That's it?   If we did the 11% bit just ONCE, we could then let it rest and go back to funding the other projects Mike mentions. We're not prioritizing it.  But let's at least give the #11 Fund a running start.  It would not have any further effect on the ongoing project funding. Just a one time kick in the pants. 

Come on, who's up for it?  There must be someone else out there.   
Title: Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Stephen Hussar on January 07, 2012, 11:13:14 AM
Dick, Mike is correct, and this is why I wrote "we're almost ready" in my initial reply. The plan is for everything concerning the No 11 project to "ramp up" once No 9 is finished. Several members (on their own) have already donated funds, time, patterns, drawings, etc., so the $50. James mentions is merely "today's" balance. 

I'm sending you a PM with more details...

Stephen



 
Title: Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Bernie Perch on January 07, 2012, 03:46:29 PM
I guess everyone knows how much I contributed in my above mentioned post.  I know we need lots of money for this project, but many other things can be done.  We are going to need more pattern makers and machinists to get this locomotive done.  The more that is contributed by volunteers, the lower the overall cost of the locomotive will be.  Outside labor costs are extremely high.  We have a machinist with access to a big shop here in Pennsylvania who is just waiting for raw material.

I have been involved with this project since October 2006 when I was introduced to Jason by Wayne.  Over the years, I have made several involved patterns and have from 500 to 1000 total hours in them.  I am currently working on the cranks which should come up in Arpil.  I have paid for all the materials myself and along with Wayne paid to have the bell bracket cast which is now on display in the freight station.  I wish I had known about the foundry in Auburn, as it would have been much cheaper than the big foundry we had them cast in down here.  We both have $1000-$2000 in castings, wood, supplies and tools which we have donated.  I'm sure the commercial prices for the patterns I have made would range from $10,000 to $25,000.

What I am saying is, if you want to see this locomotive get done, get involved!  The reason I am so involved is that since I live down here in PA, there isn't much I can do up in Maine on the physical property of the WW&F.  I would also like to state that I am not a commercial pattern maker.  I learned the hard way when we needed them at the WK&S and later at Project CNJ 113.  Just because you don't know how to do something doesn't mean you can't learn.  The whole railroad at Sheepscot was built that way.

Bernie
Title: Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: James Patten on January 07, 2012, 10:57:08 PM
There's about $6000 in the project so far, not counting the value of Bernie's patterns.  The $50 is just what we have in cash dedicated to the project.
Title: Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Stewart "Start" Rhine on January 07, 2012, 11:26:18 PM
A good bit of funds (that were donated for #11 over the last few years) were used on the construction of the pony truck wheelset.  Monies were used for the axle, cast wheels and tires.   The lead truck wheelset is the largest part of #11 to be built so far.

Stewart
Title: Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Win Nowell on January 17, 2012, 01:37:49 PM
I have been admiring Bernie's pattern work for some time. There is one thing that bothers me 'tho on the latest picture of the driver for #11. There is no provision for the crankpin! A drive wheel is not of much use without a crank!

I know that this project is being somewhat kept under wraps for the time being for financial reasons but it would be nice to know who are the leaders of the project. We know Bernie is the pattern maker and I assume Jason is probably the project manager but he is already overloaded with rebuilding #10. I have heard rumors that someone is doing the drafting and castings have been ordered for the front truck so someone must be doing some machining.

I am not being picky, just curious. Although I don't get up as often as I would like I am still interested.

Win Nowell
Title: Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Stewart "Start" Rhine on January 17, 2012, 01:59:39 PM
Hi Win,

     The difference in wheel centers is because #9 is an inside frame locomotive with crankpins on the wheels and #7 (which #11 is based on) was an outside frame engine.  The crankpins on an outside frame loco go on the counter weights outside the frame so there's no crankpin on the wheel center.

Stewart
Title: Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: James Patten on January 17, 2012, 03:01:09 PM
Bernie is working on the crankpins/counter weight patten.  He sent me a picture - great looking pattern.  Massive looking too, much like #6/#7.
Title: Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Win Nowell on January 17, 2012, 03:31:36 PM
OK - Thank you both for straightening me out! Now I've got to find some photos to wrap my head around that one!

Win Nowell
Title: Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Vincent "Lightning" LeRow on January 17, 2012, 03:34:16 PM
Take a look at the locomotive photographs in the original railway section of the museums website.  There is a photo of #7 showing the cranks and counterweights.
Title: Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Stephen Hussar on January 17, 2012, 11:30:46 PM
(http://stephenhussar.smugmug.com/photos/i-DfpVTP8/0/O/i-DfpVTP8.jpg)
Title: Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Bernie Perch on January 18, 2012, 02:01:54 AM
Stephen,

Thanx for posting the picture of the crank pattern.  What is shown are the two halves of the main crank.  I am working on the lead crank and when the construction of that one is done, I will paint on the finish of both and then photograph them together for everyone to see.  There are also 5 core boxes to make.  The lead crank has a smaller counterweight and will not be cored for a lead filled pocket as will the main one.

All this talk about #11 keeps my juices flowing and keeps me focused on the project.  Remember if there are any more people out there who can make patterns, we can use more.  All of mine are donated, including materials.  Remember that it is going to take alotta money to make this locomotive and for all those who are talking about building new locomotives, here is your chance to help in some way.  I have explained my position in many previous posts.

Bernie
Title: Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Ira Schreiber on January 18, 2012, 02:40:43 AM
How about posting this on RyPN with a much larger readership?
Title: Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Win Nowell on January 18, 2012, 08:39:50 PM
James Patten

James if you would like to put me in touch with Bernie  or whomever - I would like to volunteer to do some pattern work as Bernie requested.

Win Nowell
Title: Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: James Patten on January 18, 2012, 10:42:00 PM
Win, I've sent you Bernie's email - but you should also be in contact with Jason Lamontagne, as he is Master of Ceremonies for this project.
Title: Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Alan Downey on January 18, 2012, 11:29:08 PM
The work that you guys have been doing on #11 and #9 is really incredible. The WW&F has stuck in my mind since my short visit in July of 2009, and I've been reading the forums on and off since then, being quite inspired by you guys the whole time. I live in Texas, making the trip to come and volunteer on-site a bit difficult, but as a woodworker, I would love to try and learn how to make patterns to contribute how I can, or anything else possible with the distance for that matter. I know I'm new around here, but how can I help?
-Alan
Title: Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: James Patten on January 19, 2012, 12:50:58 AM
Alan,
First, please join the Museum as a member, if you aren't already one!  Financial support is just as important as volunteer support.
Second, reach out to Bernie and Jason (you can send them a message via the Members link on the toolbar at the top of the page).
Title: Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Joe Fox on March 12, 2012, 12:33:26 AM
I'd hate to say it, but I don't see the museum being ready to really start working on #11 till 2015 at the earliest. I'd rather see the money be used for extending the railroad, either main lines, or yard tracks, and maintain what we currently have track wise and  locomotive wise, including the #10, and soon to be #9, build the bathrooms, etc. To build such an engine will cost, I'm going to guess $500,000. Shouldn't that kind of money be used to make the museum better? Granted a new steam engine, especially a 2-4-4 would be amazing, but shouldn't we focus on our current goals?

Although, the rate that things have been going on working on #11 now in my mind is great, because then when the railroad is ready, we will be that much further ahead.
Title: Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Bernie Perch on March 12, 2012, 02:34:20 AM
I am wondering if Joe's post is just his opinion or does it represent a general attitude of others concerning the #11 project?  I know that what he said is reality and the cost of this project is really mind boggling.  Jason seems very positive about it and has been keeping us in plans, and I am nearly finished with the crank patterns and all their attendant core boxes.  Two others have stepped into the pattern making phase of this project and I hope we are not wasting our time.  I am planning to purchase the wood to make the pattern for the casting between the the front and rear frames.  I would like to know the opinions of those in power whether or not I should take on this pattern.  Are there people up there who would just like to see the project disappear as too expensive and too impractical?

My goal in going ahead with the patterns was to get the project from the drawing phase to a physical phase.  Will it instead proove that this is not the way to go?  I am 66 years olde and if this project is not going to start before 2015, I can spend my hobby time elsewhere.

Up until now my posts concerning this project have been very upbeat, but Joe's post has sent me thinking otherwise.

Bernie
Title: Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Joe Fox on March 12, 2012, 10:23:22 AM
Bernie, I meant nothing bad by what I said, and by all means, I am really glad that you have taken the time, and the effort to work on #11. And I am not a member of the board either, so nothing I say should be taken so, absolute. I only gave 2015 as a rough figure in my mind. That gives the museum time to raise money for it, etc. But like I also said, the projects you have been working on from the start a few years ago, will make the project progress that much more quickly when it does happen. Sorry to have seemed so negative towards the project, because I am a huge supporter of seeing a #11 for many reasons.
Title: Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: James Patten on March 12, 2012, 11:21:36 AM
Speaking as a board member - the board has not changed its mind regarding #11.  This is a long term project and will take a while to complete.  While it may take $500K to finish building the engine, we don't have to have all money in hand to start.  We didn't with #9.  And like everything we do, we'll run the #11 project simultaneously with other projects.  
Title: Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Richard "Steam" Symmes on March 12, 2012, 02:53:56 PM
Since it was my idea to have folks send a donation of 11% of their 2011 income tax refund as a special "set-aside" for the #11 project, I fully intend to do just that as soon as my tax refund appears in my bank account.  Various people put down the idea from the moment it left my computer keyboard, saying it would take money away from other ongoing projects.  That was not the idea.  The idea was to raise some totally new funding for a special project in an imaginative way. You know, thinking outside of the box.

If anyone would like to follow my lead with a similar donation to the #11 fund, I would encourage them to do so. I will continue to make my regular donations to the annual appeal, so the other projects will not be "short changed" by my specific funding of the #11 project.  I suspect others will do the same.

Richard Symmes
Title: Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Ed Lecuyer on March 12, 2012, 03:36:45 PM
Hi all,

(Me speaking personally as I am not a BOD member, nor a member of the steam crew.)

I don't think anyone (BOD included) is trying to discourage volunteers to step forward with their donations of time or funds toward the construction of #11. I think we all agree that #11 is a long-term project, and it will be many years before a fire is lit in her belly.

Now, if someone came forward with a check for $500,000 specifically for #11, I don't think the BOD would put that aside either.

Honestly, I think the current approach is correct. Work slowly, but steadily on #11, in conjunction with the other important projects (rest rooms, ROW extension, parking, turntable, car storage, etc.) If we all do our part, we'll see #11 under steam soon enough.
Title: Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Stephen Hussar on March 12, 2012, 07:41:07 PM
Bernie, thank you for keeping the No 11 project moving forward!!!

(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7036/6976976983_3f1eb9107a_b.jpg)

(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7204/6976977069_d50bc0496b_b.jpg)

(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7179/6830850004_2bbabeaacc_b.jpg)
Title: Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Keith Taylor on March 12, 2012, 07:49:22 PM
Gee....those look like Lehigh Valley RR tracks in the background.....

Keith
Title: Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Joe Fox on March 12, 2012, 09:21:40 PM
How much did the counter weights weigh? Those look great. Can't wait to see the actual castings.
Title: Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Bernie Perch on March 12, 2012, 09:58:32 PM
I guess we have to stir up this #11 pot every once in a while even though it is on the back burner.  Getting it done is going to be a big challenge, but I plan to truge along making more patterns.  The slowness of the pace can be helpful because then we are not rushed to get any of the patterns and parts done quickly.  I am still adjusting my mind as to what "back burner" really means to the whole project.  Whenever I get a pattern done, I like to see castings made and of course, this isn't going to happen for a while.  I have to develop more patience with the pace of the project and once in a while my emotions and impatience will show.  The next pattern will be the large casting between the front and rear frames.  Since the pace is slow, I probably won't have it finished until next April unless the pace picks up for some reason.  Two others have volunteered to join the pattern making and they are free to respond to all this discussion too.  I just want to see this locomotive run while I am still alive.

No, I did not enter this discussion to get my picture in the forum again.  It does add scale to the size of the cranks and they are quite large.  They will come up for the April Work Weekend.  The smaller core boxes for the pins and axles are almost done.  I will then take a break for other projects.

Mike, I have been following your Rowmow project with great interest if without comment until this time.  I love seeing someone take a lot of "stuff" and make something useful out of it.  The railroad needs more mechanical maintenance items even if the original WW&F did not have them.  Have you thought of what your next project will be?

Keith, that is the olde Lehigh Valley RR in the background.  The eastbound main and team track are both gone, and way in the background the olde CNJ yard and main line have been replaced with a shopping center and parking lot for the Lehigh Gorge State Park and trail.  I deliberately took the photo there.  The tracks are adjacent to my property and I am serinaded by trains day and night.  The CP and NS keep things humming and the R&N sends a local through.  I was told by a railfan that if he lived there he would set up a camera with an electric eye.  In reality I like watching and listening but have taken few photos.  Once in a while R&N 425 pulls a steam powered excursion through.

Bernie
Title: Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Robert Hale on March 12, 2012, 11:29:14 PM
I have a thought Bernie: Would it be possible on one of the larger events that the museum holds to have a small "casting pour" demo? I think it could tie in what is being done to make the parts for #11 on a smaller scale and educate people on how the process is done. For myself I would love to learn how to draw, engineer and make patterns and molds.
Title: Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Terry Harper on March 13, 2012, 12:11:55 AM
Quote
Insert Quote

I have a thought Bernie: Would it be possible on one of the larger events that the museum holds to have a small "casting pour" demo? I think it could tie in what is being done to make the parts for #11 on a smaller scale and educate people on how the process is done. For myself I would love to learn how to draw, engineer and make patterns and molds.

There is a gentleman currently pouring some bronze pieces for me who might be willing to do just such a demonstration - I know he has held a few seminars and can pour cast Iron. He is also developing a product line for the Live Steam folks. If your interested PM me and I will send you his contact info.
Title: Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Mike Fox on March 13, 2012, 12:28:57 AM
Can't wait to see those in person Bernie. Your work still amazes me. The pattern work you are doing now will save us a lot of time when we finally get going on this. This project, as well as many others, are the reason the museum is so sucessfull. There are some that may doubt that this locomotive will ever be built, but I have no doubt. And I don't care when it gets going if it takes 2 years or 10 to build, the work being done now is essential to the completion of the project.

No idea what is next for me. Probably an upgrade to Big Joe if I can get some shop space next winter.
Title: Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Alan Downey on March 13, 2012, 02:15:35 AM
I'm one of two other people who have started to help out with the pattern making for #11, whom Bernie mentioned. I concur with the general sentiment that work and efforts on #11 should not detract from the ongoing work on #9, and the site improvements. It is impossible for me to help out with the projects on site, but I can make patterns and send them to up to Maine. I must say that it definitely keeps things low-stress without a full-tilt build going on yet. And as its been said, three years isn't too terribly long. But three years is definitely a significant chunk of time for a head start to be built up while other important work is going on. And any time saved by doing preliminary work now, will reduce the amount of work left to do once things kick off.

The work that Bernie has done so far is absolutely incredible. I have even more respect and appreciation for the skill which his work shows. I too will be very excited to see the metallic results of his work, I very much look forward to seeing the wheel centers turn a dull grey.

I have not been working for very long on this project, but to add to the status update; To get my feet wet, I have completed the assembly of the cross head guide yoke bracket patterns, and will now start on the smoothing and finishing. Next I'll be working on the two types of brackets which hold the pilot to the beam, as well as a pillow block. Hopefully, with everybody's efforts, we'll have a nice dent in the pattern making once attention is turned fully towards #11.

I wish I could say so in person, but thank you to everybody working from near or afar, for your time and energy spent on the museum. The work being done leaves me humbled, and very grateful that this project can be taken on.
Title: Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Pete "Cosmo" Barrington on March 20, 2012, 12:05:23 AM
There are so many important items that can, should or must be cast in order to complete such a project.
These items (that I can think of off the top of my head) would be:
1) Firebox door
2) cylinders
3) smokestack and petticoat pipes,
4) the exhaust pipes that connect the cylinders to the smokebox,
5) driver boxes (if included in the design)
6) brake shoes, hangers etc.

Can anyone else think of any others I may have forgotten?

At the current pace, with 3 pattern makers working, I'd expect there'll be quite the pile of parts waiting in 3 years.
Title: Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Mike Fox on March 20, 2012, 12:55:05 AM
Steam and sand domes. I believe the outer shell of both are cast.
Title: Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Pete "Cosmo" Barrington on March 20, 2012, 01:30:38 AM
Steam and sand domes. I believe the outer shell of both are cast.
YES! Ty Joe.
Title: Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Stephen Hussar on March 20, 2012, 11:45:17 AM
A complete list of parts (including castings) can be seen at build11.org on the "Parts List" page.

Stephen
Title: Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Richard "Steam" Symmes on March 30, 2012, 01:55:50 AM
As I had promised in an earlier posting, I have today made out a check in the amount of 11% of my 2011 income tax refund, as a donation to the Locomotive #11 Building Fund.  It goes in the mail tomorrow.  If anyone else would like to do the same, I would urge them to do so, without using it as a substitution for your Annual Appeal contribution.

I also will be donating to the Annual Appeal next fall so that ongoing projects will continue to receive support.  This #11 donation is a one-time idea, and I have fulfilled my part of the bargain. 

Richard
Title: Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Mike Fox on March 31, 2012, 12:06:51 AM
I do like the percentage idea. I think it's time to build a car 100 so we can get 100% of your refund next year. ;)

Seriously though, working on #9, from forming the back head to the rivets to puting the frame and boiler together has really got me thinking of #11. Can't wait to be at the same stage as we are now with #9. Just takes time and money.
Title: Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Richard "Steam" Symmes on April 12, 2012, 04:41:51 PM
All very true, and that's why it's good that we are assembling parts and putting aside monies for the project so that when the time comes to shift attention from #9, we'll have a nice beginning to draw on.

At the same time, no one should expect this to take away from ongoing projects.  This is like putting aside something for a "rainy day", only this is for something special which has nothing to do with "rain".

Hopefully others will jump on board and add their little bit to the "kitty".

Title: Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Stephen Hussar on April 30, 2012, 06:51:10 PM
Folks, here are a couple of pics of new patterns for No 11, created by Alan Downey...VERY nice, Alan!!
 
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7117/7129124503_16136c0bf9_z.jpg)
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7269/7129124609_b5236c4b1a_z.jpg)
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7218/7129124729_c3e532e32f_z.jpg)
Title: Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Mike Fox on April 30, 2012, 11:28:58 PM
What are the patterns supposed to be? Looks like the larger one may be the bracket that goes from the frame to the tank. They do look nice.
Title: Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Stephen Hussar on May 01, 2012, 12:56:03 AM
Pilot brackets, I believe.

Stephen
Title: Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Bernie Perch on May 01, 2012, 02:34:36 AM
Stephen,

Thank you for posting photos of Alan's patterns.  Alan and I have been corresponding during his initial pattern making efforts and I find him to be an extremely competent, intelligent and hard working young man.  His emails are impeccable in their clarity and grammar. It is good to get young people involved in this project.  The more who become involved, the more it can move forward even though we can't really attack until number 9 is up, running, and bug-free.

One thing which the photos don't show is the extremely glassy smooth surface of the patterns.  In this regard, he has taught me some new methods I can use on my patterns and I will use them in my next efforts.  One is never too olde to learn.

It was a super weekend with many important projects being worked on.  I look forward to seeing the Turner Centre car at its display site and the resultant response by the tourists and hopefully, more of the locals.

Sunday morning during the weekend, I spent many hours with Rick Sission discussing pattern making.  He is going to make working CAD drawings to the exact specifications of the patterns which will make our work easier.  I look forward to making my next pattern from his drawings.

I am already thinking about October.


Bernie
Title: Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Alan Downey on May 01, 2012, 05:19:42 AM
Stephen, Mike, and Bernie, thank you so much for the really flattering compliments. The closer these patterns came to being done, the more worried I was about making sure I got everything right, so it was a huge relief to get the thumbs up from Bernie on Thursday, and from you today!

I have to admit, I thought that patterns wouldn't be "that" difficult to make, but they really were a bit of a mind-bender at times! I would not have been successful had it not been for Bernie's truly excellent tutelage. My respect for the work that Bernie has done on #11 (and 113!) has grown exponentially after just barely getting my feet wet. I also have to tip my hat to Jason, and Vincent LeRow for providing some really excellent drawings that were a pleasure to work from, and to Rick Sission for his current work on the electronic versions of the drawings.

Stephen, your pictures made my patterns look a heck of a lot better than I thought they did. Thank you so much for posting the pictures, it was really great to see them in Maine. And yes, the larger of the two patterns is a bracket to hold the pilot to the beam. You can see it's silhouette in the builder's photo on the other page of this thread. The smaller pattern is the "cross head guide yoke bracket", and is a bit more hidden away on the engine. I am still working on a second smaller pilot bracket that can be called a pole pocket, as well as a pillow block for the tumbling link.

I have to fit my pattern making in between my studies and work, so my time spent making sawdust is never as much as I would like. But, I very much look forward to getting the other two patterns I have going wrapped up after my increasingly hectic semester ends, and starting the next set. I'll see if I can get a picture of the other bracket and pillow block posted here in soon. Again, thank you for the kind words, and stunning photographs. It's truly a pleasure to be a part of the project, and I hope to get a chance to meet some of you one day.

-Alan
Title: Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Robert Hale on December 09, 2012, 11:07:20 PM
(http://www.philwieland.com/postcard/r/d6164.jpg)

Is this what #11 will end up looking like?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=otULlBTIYdk
Title: Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Brendan Barry on December 10, 2012, 12:44:02 AM
#11 is a 2-4-4T and is a copy of the railroads original # 7.
Title: Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Mike Fox on December 10, 2012, 01:03:16 AM
This does not look like the proposed #11, but it would make a nice #12. Do they deliver? Just kidding. Very nice looking locomotive.
Title: Re: Locomotive #11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Stewart "Start" Rhine on December 10, 2012, 01:25:35 AM
Hi Robert,

As Brendan posted, WW&F #11 will resemble the original #7 which was a Baldwin 2-4-4T.   Brecon Mtn Railway's #2 that you posted a photo of is a 4-6-2 built by Baldwin in 1930.  It's a beautiful locomotive, I think it looks like Sandy River & Rangeley Lakes #24 which was a 2-6-2.  There are a few parts of the future #11 at Sheepscot.  The pony truck wheels, headlight and bell with bracket (to name a few) are on display.

Stewart
Title: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Robert Hale on December 10, 2012, 03:34:16 PM
Yeah I could not remember what #11 was going to look like, but I thought you guys would like that pics of the Baldwin. On a side note (power wise), two questions: Did Heisler produce any 24" gauge locomotives and did they ever build that three truck 4-cylinder version? I have all the patent drawings but cannot find much info about them (outside the larger ones).
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Robert Hale on January 09, 2013, 04:17:44 PM
To answer my own question after doing some more research, a 4cylinder version of the Heilser was never built, and the smallest one built was a 36" 14ton loco. Nothing was built in 24", but I am still trying to find the Heilser catalogs from that time period.
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Wayne Laepple on January 09, 2013, 06:57:45 PM
While I can't help you with a two-foot gauge Heisler, here's a photo of a sweet two-foot gauge 12-ton Shay.

While there never was a four cylinder Heisler, the British firm Simplex built at least one V-4 steam loco for sugar plantation service in the Pacific. I've seen a photo but can't seem to locate it right now.
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Keith Taylor on January 09, 2013, 07:49:32 PM
While I can't help you with a two-foot gauge Heisler, here's a photo of a sweet two-foot gauge 12-ton Shay.

While there never was a four cylinder Heisler, the British firm Simplex built at least one V-4 steam loco for sugar plantation service in the Pacific. I've seen a photo but can't seem to locate it right now.
It would be neat if the owner of that little Shay would follow the example set by the owner of Eureka, and brought that engine here to Maine to play!

Keith
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Bernie Perch on January 09, 2013, 08:03:03 PM
The only Heisler built for 24" gauge was shop number 1336 for the Laguna Corporation at Campeche, Mexico.  It weighed 22 tons and had disc cranks with outside frame trucks.  A rather nifty looking locomotive.  This information is from the Heisler Locomotive book by Ben Kline.

Bernie
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Bill Sample on January 09, 2013, 08:58:39 PM
Regarding the BMR #2 - maybe there would have been at least one of them here if the FS&K had been built and there was a good passenger market on the Farmington - Wiscasset route.

Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: John Kokas on January 09, 2013, 09:46:35 PM
I know this is way ahead of its time, but is there any plans for a replica of #6 (2-6-2) that would be the #12?
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Bernie Perch on January 10, 2013, 12:11:17 AM
John,

Jason and I briefly discussed this and this is the reason we are making patterns for #11.  Many of these could be used for a replica of #12 but since some are smaller (cranks and cylinders), it would be a slightly less powerful locomotive (unless the pressure was raised from the original).  Something like this could only be considered after #11 was finished.  I figure about 2035 would be a good target date.  The cost at that time would probably be about 2 1/2+ million dollars.  By that time the large passenger consists from our wild popularity and through service from Wiscasset will demand such a locomotive.

Bernie
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: John McNamara on January 10, 2013, 01:16:05 AM
Bernie's mention of 2035 is probably a good one. It is important that the WW&F Railway Museum grow right-of-way, support facilities, customer facilities, rolling stock, and locomotives in a uniform and orderly fashion. Needless to say, financial and manpower resources would have to grow at a similar pace. A fourth steam locomotive would have to fit into that overall growth pattern.

-John
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Robert Hale on January 10, 2013, 06:19:26 AM
The only Heisler built for 24" gauge was shop number 1336 for the Laguna Corporation at Campeche, Mexico.  It weighed 22 tons and had disc cranks with outside frame trucks.  A rather nifty looking locomotive.  This information is from the Heisler Locomotive book by Ben Kline.

Bernie

Thanks Bernie. I would love to get the drawings for the locomotive and see how they solved the truck gearbox with such a narrow axle.
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Dylan Lambert on January 15, 2013, 05:37:32 PM
Just thinking out loud at the moment, but how would No. 11 size up against, say, one of the Henschel 0-4-0s at Boothbay?
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: James Patten on January 15, 2013, 07:51:45 PM
Probably 2.5 to 3 Henschels would equal (lengthwise anyway) one #11, from coupler to coupler
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Hansel Fardon on January 16, 2013, 03:10:40 AM
#11's design is similar to B&SR 7 (for those who keep questioning size). B&SR 7 is 23 1/3 tons. I can picture a funny pic with L-R #10, #9, and #11. I CALL THAT SHOT!!! Lol!
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Hansel Fardon on January 16, 2013, 03:27:57 AM
*33 1/3 tons (got confused with diesel #1! Lol!)
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Jason M Lamontagne on January 16, 2013, 11:34:22 AM
Number 11 is a reconstruction of WW&F 7, so lolling up those specs can tell you a lot.  28 tons, 11.5 by 14 inch cylinders, 33" drivers.  We are designing and drawing based on the original Baldwin spec sheet and erecting card for WW&F 7.

See ya
Jason
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Dylan Lambert on January 16, 2013, 04:23:34 PM
So... No chance of finding one and re-purposing some parts for No. 11. Well, unless you find one that's far larger then one of the Henschel 0-4-0s that could provide some components to work with (motion parts, wheels, side rods, etc.)...
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Keith Taylor on January 16, 2013, 04:35:06 PM
So... No chance of finding one and re-purposing some parts for No. 11. Well, unless you find one that's far larger then one of the Henschel 0-4-0s that could provide some components to work with (motion parts, wheels, side rods, etc.)...
Dylan, the technology between the German Industrial locomotives (which are basically pieces of contractor's equipment similar to a bull dozer) and American mainline narrow gauge locomotives is just too great. The little German locomotives have plate frames as opposed to the much heavier American bar frames. The German locomotives have cylinders bolted to the frames, where the American locomotives use a split cylinder/smoke box saddle unit casting.
Basically to compare in modern railroad terms it would be like trying to build an EMD SD-45 by using parts from a Plymouth. :)
Keith
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Dave Crow on January 16, 2013, 07:25:57 PM
Dylan,

In case it hasn't been mentioned fairly recently in this thread, take a look at Stephen Hussar's web site for the locomotive project:
http://www.build11.org/ (http://www.build11.org/)

I'm not sure if Stephen has updated his awesome photos of Bernie's (and others') patterns on the site or not, but most of that (recent) progress is documented on the pages of this thread.  In addition, some of us continue to provide drawings for various parts.

Dave Crow
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Matthew Gustafson on January 22, 2013, 02:23:31 AM
Are their also plans on making a replica of WW&F #7's number plate, so when ever this locomotive is built and running in the distant future, so that we can make #11 look like #7 for historical re-enactments.
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Stephen Hussar on January 27, 2013, 01:21:08 PM
All, one of the Bolster patterns for No 11 underway in Bernie's shop. Looks great, Bernie...thanks for the picture!!

SH

(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8367/8420185886_ef76301ec0_b.jpg)
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Bernie Perch on January 27, 2013, 02:53:10 PM
Thanx Stephen for posting this.  Any more pattern makers out there?  We need a lot more to make and to get the #11 project moving along as soon at #9 is finished and we can all see that approaching.

Bernie
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: John Kokas on January 27, 2013, 03:38:45 PM
Has anyone thought of enlisting local high school wood shops to make patterns of the more "simple" parts?  Maybe something that should be considered and also as a way to generate interest in the RR with a younger generation.
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Richard "Steam" Symmes on January 27, 2013, 04:33:30 PM
I second that idea.  Is this a dying art?

Richard
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Stephen Hussar on January 27, 2013, 11:23:32 PM
I don't think most High Schools even have a wood shop anymore...

SH
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Stephen Piwowarski on January 27, 2013, 11:44:53 PM
Stephen,

That seems to be true.  I know my high school dismantled one of two remaining tech classrooms (of the original 4 from when the schools was built) to add more space for other programs.  I worked with my asst.  principal (whose model of a Southern Ry. PS-4 on his desk attested to his interest in railways) to acquire some of the machinery from the shop for a local railway museum.  Unfortunately, it did not work out.
While substitute teaching, I was witness to some absolutely scandalous things in tech classrooms.  One day while subbing, we went through and identified the name and purpose of the different parts of the internal combustion cutaway they had in their room.  They described it as "the most fun the ever had in tech" and were mystified as to why a music teacher knew stuff about a car engine.

Steve
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Duncan Mackiewicz on January 29, 2013, 02:56:58 PM
While I've never made patterns such as Bernie is quite skilled at, I am a fairly skilled woodworker and would be willing to help produce a pattern or patterns for this project. When next a pattern is needed, feel free to contact me and advise what I can do to help.

Duncan
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Bernie Perch on January 29, 2013, 05:47:13 PM
Duncan,

The drawing in the photo of my patterns was made by Rick Sisson and has compensated for shrinkage and machining.  All you have to do is follow the exact dimentions and you will have the perfect pattern.  If you start one and have any questions, just email me.  I don't know exactly what Rick is working on now, but his work make ours much easier.  Talk to Jason about what he wants next.  Actually the one in the photo would have been a perfect beginners project.

Bernie
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Matthew Gustafson on January 29, 2013, 06:54:58 PM
Has anyone thought of enlisting local high school wood shops to make patterns of the more "simple" parts?
I could had done that 2 years ago while I was still in high school because I my school did had a wood shop and I was in that class for 2 years and I could had easily done you guys a favor but that was two years ago and my Grandpa's wood shop does not have the correct tools to make parts you need.  :o :( :-\
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Duncan Mackiewicz on January 30, 2013, 08:20:29 PM
Bernie,

I have time and tools. I will have to keep in touch about making a pattern.

Duncan
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Ken Fleming on February 27, 2013, 12:08:44 AM
Has anyone thought of using a 3D Printer to make patterns?  One advantage would be making a "model" of the pattern from a scaled down drawing to see it before going full size.  3D Printers are limited in size by their work area size, however patterns are typically made from a number of parts, so not a problem.  Once a drawing is converted to 3D it can be sectioned to fit.  3D Printers are falling in price and now start a low as $500.  They produce a product from ABS or PLA plastic and can be accurate to 100 microns.  The software is freeware (for the most part) and thus could be shared between a number of "draftsmen".  Also drawings can be saved on a memory card library for reuse or sharing.  The final drawings can be e-mailed for production at a single site.  Drawings would be something to do on cold, winter nights.

Surf YouTube to see the how's  and what's of 3D Printing.  Sample http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LRv4jp-hhBE
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Stephen Hussar on February 27, 2013, 11:13:42 AM
Yes, we've been talking about 3D printing for quite a while now.

Stephen
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Hansel Fardon on February 28, 2013, 01:36:43 AM
THAT'S AWESOME!!!! Then we can make #11 toys/models for the gift shop!!!!!!
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: John Kokas on February 28, 2013, 01:38:51 PM
how about patterns for parts to make #11 (7), in HOn2, O and G scale and then sell them as "custom" units.
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Stephen Hussar on March 12, 2013, 01:44:22 PM
All, more beautiful patterns for No 11 from Bernie Perch...this is the Outer Bolster pattern. Thank you, Bernie!

Stephen

(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8527/8551883582_200c44eb60_b.jpg)

(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8385/8551884518_a55da1462d_b.jpg)
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Bernie Perch on March 12, 2013, 06:11:01 PM
Stephen,

Again, thanx for posting this.  I have already started the next one which should be ready to bring up for the work weekend.  Alan just finished some and the pile of patterns for #11 is accumulating.  I am looking forward to seening parts on the erection floor.

Bernie
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Stephen Hussar on March 12, 2013, 07:44:39 PM
This image is from Alan Downey and shows patterns for the Pilot poling Bracket, Pillow Block Core Box, and Pillow Block. Thanks, Alan...nice work!

(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8093/8550784025_ef5987aef7_b.jpg)
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Stewart "Start" Rhine on March 12, 2013, 08:55:09 PM
Wow - nice patterns by Bernie and Alan.  Youz guys do beautiful work!

Stewart
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Mike Fox on March 12, 2013, 10:48:47 PM
Nice work. I do have a question. What is the yellow for? Is it marking a location or are you making a pin for that?
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Alan Downey on March 12, 2013, 11:33:02 PM
Thanks for putting the pictures up Stephen, and thank you all! I'm looking forward to bringing the patterns up to the museum this May, and getting the chance to meet and work with everyone.

Mike, the piece in the middle is a "core box". It's used to ram up the sand to form up two halves of a cylinder to create a core, which is used to create holes in the castings. I would imagine sometimes core boxes are a final dimension, but in this case, it's to aid the machinist in boring out a larger hole for the bearing in the pillow block. The painted yellow sections tell the foundry that there is to be a core placed in those locations once the halves of the mold are rammed up, and the patterns removed. The core box is painted yellow so that they know that it's a core box, and not something else. Bernie has made many more core boxes as well, including for the counterweights, he can also correct me if I've misstated anything, or not made sense!
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Stephen Piwowarski on March 13, 2013, 01:08:18 AM
Gentleman,

Really beautiful work.  I remember a while back when I was reading Dave Gingery's series on building a machine shop from scrap, he mentioned using auto body filler to create a fillet on castings.  I see this on your pattern Bernie and was wondering what you use.

Take care,
Steve
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Bernie Perch on March 13, 2013, 03:44:48 AM
Alan,

Your description of the coring process and how the foundry recognizes it is correct.

Stephen,

I use homemade wood quarter round for most of my fillets.  I used some plastic wood in some of the shallow and tight spots.  Chances are it wouldn't hold up if the pattern was being used continuously.  I should have also used wood in those areas.  I never thought of using auto body filler although I have used quite a bit of it when my brother had an auto body shop.  Alan uses a homemade mixture which I haven't been able to duplicate.

Also, the paper I promised to email to you about whistles during the last work weekend, I couldn't find it.

Mike,

If you wish to see more complicated cores, go to page 11 of this thread to see the one for the crank.  The axle and crank holes are marked for cores, but the core boxes are not in the photos.

Bernie
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Stephen Hussar on March 13, 2013, 10:47:08 AM
I've used "Bondo' in the past on patterns at the museum....specifically for coupler pocket and headlight castings. I'm sure it's been used on many other patterns too...

Stephen
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Mike Fox on March 13, 2013, 11:27:55 PM
Alan,
  Thanks for the excellent explanation.

Bernie,
  Short term memory, and if I was to look back, probably the same question was asked then too. Perhaps even by me.

Excellent work by both of you guys. I can't wait to the these pieces come together.
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread Suggestion of optional Pattern Making
Post by: Thor Windbergs on March 14, 2013, 08:01:02 PM
Dear Narrow Minded Gentlemen,

I am pretty interested in building or repairing 2ft gauge locomotives using modern methods and one question I wanted to pose is if there are full drawings and or 3D Cad drawings why not considering having the patterns machined out of wood or plastic for the complex shapes which are much easier on CNC machines. Surely some shop out there in east of US would be willing to donate some time if a 3D CAD model is available in a standard DXF or STEP file format?

The next idea I wanted to through out is if patterns are really only need once for one locomotive then it is not necessary that the patterns are re-usable or that they survive to collect dust on the shelf...

During my 2 years of working for BMW in 6 Cylinder engine development in Munich I watched all the technology of the current engines out of aluminum or magnesium and the cores these days are all injection molded closed cell foam where several pieces of very complex passageways for all the water and oil cooling and these are put together like a 3D jig saw puzzle, automatically and robotized assembly naturally. And these cores are then packed in sand and the molten aluminum then melts the Styrofoam into a noxious gas during poring. Theoretically just like lost wax casting.

For patterns in the size that we narrow minded people are creating we can imagine starting with big blocks of foam and cutting with hot wire, saws, filing and sanding, will make a mess but requires low-tech tools and you can use fillers, paints and puddy to fill things and create sealed smooth surfaces which would be of great advantage for surface finish in steam passages for a free breathing locomotive...

So just throwing my thoughts out, hopefully it will encourage someone to experiment. I hope to visit the No.9 & No.11 in the next years, have to wait for my 2 year old son gets alittle older before flying the 8 hrs from Germany to Maine.
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Bernie Perch on March 14, 2013, 10:10:11 PM
Thor,

Even though I have and will make more wooden patterns in the traditional manner for #11, I can agree with you overall and if I were in charge of building a new locomotive, I would use the most modern methods available but I am not in charge of this #11 project.  Also most modern methods could mean more dollars.

The reason we are using the "Olde tyme" methods is that the powers to be wish to duplicate as many of the olde processes used when the original #7 (which we are duplicating) was built.  There will be notable exceptions such as a welded boiler and some flame (or similar process) cut parts.  I am encouraging them to use the "lost foam" process for the central frame section which would be a complicated wooden pattern.

Another reason we are using the wooden patterns is that the cost for the railroad is $0.  All the patterns that Alan and I have made have been paid for by us and donated to the cause.  There is a chance that when this project is started, others may want to build a locomotive and parts can be made by or for them with the patterns.  Way down the road, other locomotives may be built by the railroad when the traffic demands it.  This last statement may seem like dreaming, but who thought fifteen years ago that there would be the complex at Sheepscot that currently exists.

Getting back to what Thor stated, I will stick to the way they want it done at Sheepscot. If I were making #11, the tender truck wheel centers would be spoked like the lead truck with a tire (the pattern already exists and would get more use), it would have outside valve gear, and the cylinders among other things would be weldments.

I also agree that once a wooden pattern is used and finished, it is rarely used again except for grates or plates.  I am a part of Project CNJ 113 and the pile of patterns we used on the locomotive, both commercial and mine are rather carelessly stored in a trailer, exposed to hot, cold, and dampness, and in a few years they will be worthless.  We used "lost foam" patterns for the stack and base.

Bernie
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Jason M Lamontagne on March 16, 2013, 12:54:14 AM
With the utmost respect for both the work that Bernie has done and his valuable opinion, my take on replicating WW&F 7 comes from a slightly different perspective.  I feel that it is extremely important to recognize that the original machine was a product if its time, and if not for the technology from which it came, it would not have looked like it did or exist at all.  By replicating such a machine, we are not only providing a tribute to that engine but to that era.

Now the counterpart to all that fluffy idealism is practicality; building it has to be within our means.  We have moved almost entirely to CAD drawing and, in some cases computer modeling, despite my early reluctance.  Some foam patterns are being considered.  Our goal is an end product which is both an accurate reconstruction of the original and is a respectable tribute to the technological era of 1907.

Regards
Jason
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Stewart "Start" Rhine on March 16, 2013, 01:49:07 AM
I think that replicating #7 is kind of along the same lines as the railroads' crank telephone system.  The phones and ringer boxes are all 1920's era while most of the wiring is new.  The visitor sees the historic instrument and how it works providing the experience of how railroads used phones in the 1920's.  The parts that are not seen such as feed cables and lightning protection are newer technology which provide safety and better operation for the crew.  The phone on the station wall is a nod to the folks who designed and installed such equipment 80-90 years ago and how it helped railroads operate more efficiently.  Jason makes a good point, building #11 is a wonderful project which will open yet another window on the past for our guests. 
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Stephen Hussar on March 17, 2013, 01:37:09 AM
"Lost styrofoam" smokestack patterns from CNJ 113. It's super interesting to see this stuff, thanks, Bernie!

(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8521/8562888149_07a7a7d9a0_b.jpg)
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Bernie Perch on March 17, 2013, 02:05:41 AM
Stephen,

Again thanx, many times over for posting my photos.

I have been wanting these photos to be posted for quite a while, but was waiting for the proper time and Thor's post had me dig them out.  These patterns were made by the Behler Pattern Works in Deer Lake, PA.  They also made several complicated wooden patterns that were beyond my means and especially, time.  The worn out and broken stack and base were taken to the works and they made the patterns directly from the originals without drawings.  I am used to heavy wooden patterns and when we visited the pattern works, I went to pick up what my subconscious mind was saying 50+ pounds of pattern.  The problem was that this "huge" pattern weighed about two pounds and I almost threw it off the table.  There is no doubt in my mind that this is the way to go with "one-offs"  Behler took the patterns to the foundry and worked with them so that the casting process went well.  I have no idea what the whole process cost, but it was well worth it.

Bernie
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread-Cool Pattern Making other where in US...
Post by: Thor Windbergs on March 17, 2013, 02:27:01 PM

Hey guy check on this thread from the Facebook of the "Lyon". The boiler work and casting of the Smokebox door is amazing.

http://www.facebook.com/pages/V-T-Lyon/269396092936?id=269396092936&sk=photos_stream (http://www.facebook.com/pages/V-T-Lyon/269396092936?id=269396092936&sk=photos_stream)

cheers
Thor
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Keith Taylor on March 17, 2013, 02:35:37 PM
Stephen,

Again thanx, many times over for posting my photos.

Bernie
Hi Bernie, how did the surface finish come on the lost foam castings? I would think it would be very close to a lost wax process and so give a fine grained surface. What I am curious about is how they ram up the molds. I wouldn't think they could use a hydraulic ram as that amount of pressure would crush the foam.
Keith
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Steve Smith on March 17, 2013, 09:11:53 PM
I was wondering about that also, Keith. I never thought to ask Jason about that, in connection with the first pattern for the frame transition casting. I'm pretty sure he told me the pattern for the first casting--now Ichabod crane car counterweight--was foam. I wonder if there's maybe some sort of vibratory process used to compact sand that doesn't rely as much on pressure.
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Jason M Lamontagne on March 17, 2013, 11:23:16 PM
I believe they use the chemical-set sand.  It is vibrated into to mold and self sets in several hours.  Enterprise Foundry in Lewiston does this; that's where I learned about it. 

No 9's first frame casting was lost foam.  The pattern, made by the foundry, cost more than the casting; total cost around $5000.  I wasn't pleased with porosity in places, but what condemned it was dimensional in nature... It never made it to the radiograph we were requiring, so we don't know how extensive that porosity really was.  We didn't pay anything for that casting. 

The one we're using cost around $6k.  It was also a foam pattern, but not lost foam.  It was made, packed and withdrawn like a wood pattern.  It appears that this foundry did not use self-setting sand because the corners are not crisp but rather rounded over and beaten looking. 

See ya
Jason
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Bernie Perch on March 18, 2013, 01:12:16 AM
In my above post I mentioned that a representative from Behler took the pattern to the foundry and oversaw how it was placed in the sand.  I have no idea concerning the process.  I talked to Bob Kimmel about the costs and these are 10 years ago prices.  The patterns cost a little over $5,000.  The rough castings were about $600 and machining the castings was about $1500.  The castings were not perfectly smooth and I don't think they were checked for porosity because they are not in a high stress area.  The metal was a special alloy mix to tolerate the heat in this area.

Bernie.
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Rick Sisson on April 05, 2013, 01:31:32 AM
I've been learning how to model number 11's cylinder/saddle casting in TurboCad using the detailed drawings developed by Jason. First, I modeled the cores:
(http://i1065.photobucket.com/albums/u385/ricksisson/wwfry%2011/Cylinderstudy2Bcores.jpg)

The cores are: red - exhaust, green - live steam, light blue (and underneath dark blue) - main lightener, tan - frameway, brown - cylinder bore, dark blue steam port, darker green - outer lightener. My model represents only one quadrant of the complete assembly - the left and right cylinders are identical and formed from the same molds; the individual castings are symetric fore and aft, so only one half is modeled.
Then I encapsulated the cores with the casting outer shell:
(http://i1065.photobucket.com/albums/u385/ricksisson/wwfry%2011/Cylinderstudy2Bcasting.jpg)

I then subtracted the cores from the outer shell to represent the final casting with voids where the cores had been, and then I split the casting into 5 pieces so I could inspect the inside of the casting at various points, as you can see in the picture. You can not see the interior details unless the casting is opened up.
Finally, I sent the CAD file to a 3D printing company called Shapeways, and 5 days later the UPS guy brought me little plastic pieces!
(http://i1065.photobucket.com/albums/u385/ricksisson/wwfry%2011/Shapeways.jpg)

My design is on the Shapeways web site and you can see the model here:
http://www.shapeways.com/model/952269/cylinder-study-2be.html?li=my-models&key=15c6a8ee31134438744f6510c95a0906 (http://www.shapeways.com/model/952269/cylinder-study-2be.html?li=my-models&key=15c6a8ee31134438744f6510c95a0906)

If you click on the right arrow or the shaded cube the model will revolve for you. You can actually follow the live staem and exhaust passages as the model revolves.

After I had studied the 3D printed parts for quite some time, I found a small number of errors that were hard to find in my CAD model even when I could see them in the plastic model.

I started this effort last fall - it took quite some time to become familiar with 3D modeling with the TurboCad software and quite a while to become comfortable with Jason's design.

I'm currently working on the outer shell molds and I am trying to get some more parts to the 3D printer soon. This is a very complicated casting and it hasn't been easy to get my arms around it, so to speak.
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Steve Smith on April 05, 2013, 02:33:08 AM
Thank so much, Rick, and congratulations. That is impressive, in all respects! That it is difficult and time consuming to comprehend, even with the aid of such wonderful technology as Turbo Cad, shows so well what a complicated casting it is. The old time pattern makers and other foundry people sure had to be good at visualization, along with a bunch of other skills.
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Bernie Perch on April 05, 2013, 03:27:24 AM
Rick,

Super job.  Next we need to figure out how the cores are going to lock into place and how we pull the whole thing out of the sand.  This is going to be a fun pattern to make.

Bernie
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Alan Downey on April 05, 2013, 04:24:14 AM
Stunning work, Rick. This is another great step forward for the project. Bernie's right, this is going to be a really cool pattern. Having never really studied the inside of a cylinder saddle before, I've never been able to visualize how all the ports fit together, so thank you for letting us see how it all fits together. Just out of curiosity, what scale did you have the 3D printed parts produced at?
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Stephen Hussar on April 05, 2013, 07:19:36 PM
Rick...this is excellent!!

Stephen
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Rick Sisson on April 05, 2013, 11:42:17 PM
Bernie - Jason and I expect to use chaplets to secure the cores in the mold. I'm working on a model where I can "pin" the cores with dowels so we can assemble the cores and mold and disassemble the same to debug the model. It's become clear that the main lightener core has to be split to get the steam and exhaust cores to nestle inside it.
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Rick Sisson on April 05, 2013, 11:46:32 PM
Alan - the 3D print is 1/16 scale and cost $14.77. The cost is determined by the amount of solid material in the parts. I had wanted a larger model, say 1/8 scale but that would cost 8 times (2 cubed) as much - $118! So I quickly settled on a 1/16 scale print.
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Alan Downey on April 08, 2013, 04:24:23 AM
Over the past year, I had known that SMU had the Baldwin Locomotive Works archives, including some information regarding #6 and #7. I had tried a few times to no avail to access those documents digitally until a few days ago. I'm sure many of you have already seen these, and or have been working from them. But in case there were other folks like me who hadn't seen these, I wanted to pass them along.

The two sheets appear to be the design specifications for the two engines, providing the framework to design the engine around. I had no idea the original order was for an "olive green and aluminum" paint scheme. Was that how #7 spent it's time on the line? Interesting as well, is the note on #6's tender for it to be "as short as possible"- presumably trying to fit the turntables?

It's a PDF of scanned microfiche which enlarges beautifully- but is thus quite large (447MB). #7 is on page 40, and #6 on page 41 of volume 31, which can be downloaded at this link: http://digitalcollections.smu.edu/all/extra/degolyer/rwy/BaldwinManuscripts/mss0061_02_31_opt.pdf (http://digitalcollections.smu.edu/all/extra/degolyer/rwy/BaldwinManuscripts/mss0061_02_31_opt.pdf)

The other volumes of the BLW archive can be found on this page:
http://digitalcollections.smu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/rwy/id/32 (http://digitalcollections.smu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/rwy/id/32)

Enjoy!

Rick, that's both funny and painful to hear. Too bad "economy of scale" doesn't apply in that way. I'm glad the 1/16th scaling was pretty economical for you to have produced though- it sounds like it was a real help. From my own experience doing 3D-modelling, there was no way to really be certain of everything until I could handle a prototype.
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Thor Windbergs on April 08, 2013, 10:41:35 AM
Hey Guys,
I've been busy working through all the Baldwin locomotive specifications searching for Brazilian and all locomotives 2ft6in gauge and so far I have found all Baldwin Maine Two Footers and 98% of the Brazilian 60cm engines and alot of other interesting engines.

Since I don't know how to upload pdf files to this forum I have uploaded them to the files section of the Maine 2fter Modelers Forum, you have to join the Yahoo Group first but no big deal but for that you can get the 30 single files from pages for all the engines. If you find one that I missed let me know and I will dig it up. I'm getting good at that. 

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Maine-Two-Foot-Modelers-Forum/files/LocomotiveSpecifications/ (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Maine-Two-Foot-Modelers-Forum/files/LocomotiveSpecifications/)

Hope this says some people some work and think on the book author Rich Dunn that funded the posting of the micro fish as digital scans. It is in the spirit to volunteer information instead of hoarding it your private files until you die....

Thor
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Stuart Tomlinson on April 08, 2013, 07:36:45 PM
Fantastic work on the CAD model congratulation to all, I have a question about the Baldwin drawings link, We at Statfold in the UK have just taken delivery of 2 Baldwins from India. They are the  WW 1 4-6-0 type but they are in poor condition, the Indians have had the best out of them. Does anyone know if the drawings exist which I can see that there is a huge data base of drawings could any one point us in the right direction thanks
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Stewart "Start" Rhine on April 15, 2013, 11:48:39 PM
I noticed that this thread is the first one to pass 30,000 views.  It's probably an indication of the level of interest for building #11.

Stewart
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Keith Taylor on April 17, 2013, 01:08:42 PM
I've been learning how to model number 11's cylinder/saddle casting in TurboCad using the detailed drawings developed by Jason. First, I modeled the cores:
(http://i1065.photobucket.com/albums/u385/ricksisson/wwfry%2011/Cylinderstudy2Bcores.jpg)


I started this effort last fall - it took quite some time to become familiar with 3D modeling with the TurboCad software and quite a while to become comfortable with Jason's design.

I'm currently working on the outer shell molds and I am trying to get some more parts to the 3D printer soon. This is a very complicated casting and it hasn't been easy to get my arms around it, so to speak.
Rick, I'm sure I am missing soemthing. But when I look at your models it appears that the rear port on the top of the cylinder is connected to the front of the cylinder. Am I looking at it funny or does the engine have crossed ports?
Keith
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Dave Crow on April 17, 2013, 01:18:13 PM
Keith,

I believe the picture only depicts one half of one steam chest; there would be a mirror image portion forward (farther into the page) that would be the front half of the casting.  What is shown appears to be the back half of the engineer's (right-side) casting, and I think that's why it was referred to as only one-quadrant of the entire cylinder saddle assembly.

Dave Crow
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Keith Taylor on April 17, 2013, 01:24:34 PM
Keith,

I believe the picture only depicts one half of one steam chest; there would be a mirror image portion forward (farther into the page) that would be the front half of the casting.  What is shown appears to be the back half of the engineer's (right-side) casting, and I think that's why it was referred to as only one-quadrant of the entire cylinder saddle assembly.

Dave Crow
Dave.....ah, now all is clear! I knew I was missing something vital!
Keith
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Rick Sisson on April 18, 2013, 01:06:12 AM
Hi Keith -

Dave is correct - here's a picture of the half-saddle cores:

(http://i1065.photobucket.com/albums/u385/ricksisson/wwfry%2011/Cylinderstudy2Bmirror.jpg)
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: John McNamara on April 18, 2013, 02:40:08 AM
Am I correct in assuming that light green is "Steam In From Boiler (via wishbone)," blue is "Steam Into Cylinders," and red is "Exhaust Steam?"

-John
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Rick Sisson on April 18, 2013, 04:25:31 PM
You are correct John - blue is "Steam Into Cylinders" and "Steam Out Of Cylinders"

The cores are: red - exhaust, green - live steam, light blue (and underneath dark blue) - main lightener, tan - frameway, brown - cylinder bore, dark blue steam port, darker green - outer lightener. My model represents only one quadrant of the complete assembly - the left and right cylinders are identical and formed from the same molds
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Eric Bolton on July 08, 2013, 05:51:21 PM
Hey guys its been a while. I was wondering if anyone could share info on the number plate for #11. Where was it cast and what was the cost? Reason I ask is because I am currently looking into getting a plate made for a project in New Jersey I'm involved with.
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Bernie Perch on July 08, 2013, 06:32:47 PM
Eric,

I had the plate cast at the Zawol Foundry in Wilkes-Barre, Pa. for Steven Hussar.  I no longer have the patterns, nor do I know if Zawol is still in business.  That could have been over 6 years or more ago.  I don't remember the cost.

Check with Wayne James in the Gettysburg Pa. area.  He has all sorts of plate patterns almost ready to go.  He can cast them in aluminum in his own foundry in his shop or have a foundry cast them in brass or bronze.  His work is super and there are a lot of his plates out there.

Bernie
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Eric Bolton on July 08, 2013, 09:07:44 PM
Thank for the reply. I sent you a PM Bernie.
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: John Kokas on July 08, 2013, 10:09:17 PM
Eric,

Zawol Foundry is still in business.  44 Gilligan St.  Wilkes-Barre, PA  18702  (570) 823-7522  Only a very short distance from the old Vulcan Ironworks where our #10 originated.

They also have a Facebook page.

Would your NJ "project" happen to be for a 2-8-0 under restoration at Pine Creek?
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Keith Taylor on July 08, 2013, 10:45:58 PM
I doubt it is for a 2-8-0 at Allaire....the Quincy and Torch Lake engine went back to Michigan some time ago......
But then....you never know.

Keith
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Eric Bolton on July 09, 2013, 01:21:43 AM
Its a Porter 2-6-0 that ran in Panama. #46
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Bernie Perch on July 09, 2013, 02:05:39 AM
Eric,

I answered your PM.

Bernie
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Alan Downey on July 29, 2013, 06:28:18 PM
While I was up in Maine and Pennsylvania, I finally got the chance to sit down with Jason and Bernie. Between the two of them, I got a slew of pattern projects to chew on, and some great insights to improve my pattern making as things go forward. I had to take some time after I got back from Maine to work on a few personal projects, but I'm able to devote the bulk of my free time for the last month of my summer to pattern projects.

I spent half a day making a pair of sleds to cut the draft for my patterns by machine planer in minutes, instead of hours with hand planes as I did with my first round of patterns. This obviously sped things up quite a bit, so within the first week and a half of work, I've been able to complete the fabrication of the pilot truck oil cellar, get pretty far along with the lead truck frame, and prepare most of the parts for the driving box oil cellar.

The sled on the right gets used first, and cuts a 2 degree taper along the length of (formerly) square stock until the taper extends the full width of the board. If the pattern requires, I flip the piece and place it on the 4 degree sled to cut the draft on the opposing face. I know Bernie and I use different construction methodologies, but if anybody ever can find this useful now or in the future, I hope it can save you some time.

(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2818/9395479004_336974697a_c.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/95801104@N07/9395479004/)



Here's the pilot oil cellar. I'll actually assemble it over the coming academic year, since I can do the smoothing/finishing in an apartment.

(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3747/9392708749_4c915f4cc7_c.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/95801104@N07/9392708749/)


The lead truck frame arches don't sit flush with the plane of the casting. The big upright sections are frame arches, while the shallower and wider pieces are the core prints which will be used to create the air space in the casting underneath the arches. The piece in the background is the core box shaping up. I still need to make some small pieces to add to the sides of the arches for the swing link bosses, and attach everything together. But this pattern is *nearing* completion- at least fabrication wise. Thats a 24" rule on the side, and a 12" up front for reference.

(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3813/9392708325_7e9fc00af1_c.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/95801104@N07/9392708325/)

For all my patterns following the lead truck frame, I've switched to a marine grade plywood hoping it would be a lot easier to work with hand tools for the finer work than the cabinet grade stuff I used first. It has turned out to be a lot more consistent, but it sure is ugly!

In addition to wrapping up fabrication on the lead truck frame, I'm hoping to start work on the pilot truck journal box proper, finish the driver oil cellar, and perhaps start on the drive box. It is unlikely at best that I will make it to the drive boxes in the next couple weeks, but it gives me a nice goal.
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Wayne Laepple on July 29, 2013, 07:48:25 PM
Wow! Great work, Alan. We need more guys like you in the program!
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Jason M Lamontagne on July 29, 2013, 08:08:41 PM
Wow, Alan, great work, and fast!  Thanks so much!

Jason
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Ira Schreiber on July 29, 2013, 09:33:35 PM
Very impressive, Alan and thank you.

Ira Schreiber
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Bernie Perch on July 29, 2013, 11:05:40 PM
Alan,

Your work is fantastic.  As you know, all the patterns have to do is make good castings, not look pretty.  The less time spent on them, the better.  My shop has few machine tools, so I do things by hand and they subsequently take longer.  At this point in my life, I will not get any more, so I believe that you will overtake me in production and that is a good thing.  Keep it up.

Bernie
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Alan Downey on July 31, 2013, 04:03:37 PM
Thanks guys! I'll try not to get too distraught over ugly plywood, and keep chugging away.

Once we start to have whole assemblies of patterns complete, it might be an interesting picture to see everything lined up and placed in a way that gives some skeleton to the locomotive. Sort of like how crash wreckage gets "re assembled", but in a much less morbid context.
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Stephen Hussar on September 05, 2013, 02:52:40 PM
All, the latest from Bernie's shop. These are the patterns for No 11's Center Body Bolster & Core Box. Thanks, Bernie!!

(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2876/9677611419_106c9a0acf_o.jpg)

(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2827/9677609413_4e5f0db29a_o.jpg)

(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2864/9677607769_ff02152a24_o.jpg)

(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3748/9677605907_6f4fc04d13_o.jpg)

(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3809/9677603929_ed3d676518_o.jpg)

(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7352/9680837892_d79264d844_o.jpg)

(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7303/9680835568_03292668b3_o.jpg)

(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5488/9677597247_461a4066c5_o.jpg)
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Dave Crow on September 05, 2013, 03:11:36 PM
Bernie, nice work - as always!  Does this set of patterns make two different parts? The body-mounted bolster as well as its mate on the truck?

Dave Crow
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Bernie Perch on September 05, 2013, 08:08:52 PM
Stephen,

For the unteenth time, thank you for posting my photos.  This would be an impossible task for me.  I look for the day in the not too distant future when we start seeing castings.

Dave,

This is only for the frame center body bolster.  The outer tapered parts are machined flat to fit between the frame pieces. The larger diameter round section is machined to fit onto the truck bolster pad which I assume is similar to the one we put on the TCDA trucks a few work sessions ago.  My next group of patterns tentatively will be all the castings for the trailing truck.  First, I have to do the intermediate body bolster casting pattern, but it is not as complicated as this one and shouldn't take as long.  I told Jason to forward the truck pattern drawings to me when they are ready.

Bernie
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Stephen Hussar on September 07, 2013, 11:40:32 AM
Happy to help, Bernie! This "official" No 11 thread has had over 35,000 views! I'd say people are VERY interested
in this project!  :)

Stephen
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Dave Crow on September 08, 2013, 09:23:34 PM
Hi Bernie,

I made drawings for most of the castings required for the rear truck including the center casting (the pieces out at the end of the bolster that has a circular hole in it) and the the pivot casting.  Because I had drawn the parts to scale, I believe Jason was planning to mark them up by the percentage required to account for shrinkage as the casting cools.

I look forward to seeing the patterns for the bolster parts; with enough donations, the flat stock and angle steel required for the rear frame and truck could be purchased.  Wouldn't it be neat to see the rear portion of #11 sitting in one of the roundhouse stalls?  Dream even bigger and have the tank made and mounted on the frame!

Dave
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Dylan Lambert on September 09, 2013, 01:23:36 AM
You know what might not be a bad idea? See if WPI or one of the other technical schools in the region would be willing to make some mini replicas of No. 11's number plates on their CNC machine... Sell them to raise funds for the project and give out some flyers describing the endeavor with them...
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Bernie Perch on September 09, 2013, 01:44:59 AM
Dave,

Is there any possibility of sending me the scale drawings?  I could start getting my mind prepared, I also can generally guess at the shrinkage rate which wouldn't be that much.  Also I could compare yours and Jason's.  When I was working on the bolster patterns, it would have been nice to see the scale drawings.

Bernie
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Dave Crow on September 09, 2013, 01:46:37 PM
Bernie, I'm at a conference in San Antonio this week, but I will look on my desk at work next Monday to see if I still have copies of the individual parts.  I believe I showed you copies of them last fall when I first drew them up.  I have since sent Jason a second set, and I'm not sure if I kept copies of all the drawings or not.

I do have PDFs of Baldwin's rear frame and rear truck drawings; I can send them to you.  You wouold have to enlarge them when you print them out.  Or I can bring you an 11x17 of each at the Fall work weekend.

I think the shrinkage is about 3%, or is that the draft angle?  I'm not exactly sure how much steel shrinks when cast...

Dave
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Bernie Perch on September 09, 2013, 04:55:20 PM
Dave,

It will be two to three months before I finish the intermediate body bolster pattern, so there is no rush to get the plans to me.  If it is necessary, I will ask Jason for them.  I believe the locomotive should be built from the rails up.  It would be great to see the trailing truck finished early.  We have to convince Jason to use the spoked wheel center pattern which we already have.

It would be fine for you to give me the drawings during the work weekend if you can get them ready.

The shrinkage is about 1/8" per foot.  The draft angle is 3 degrees.  I would have to check.  I put more than enough on a pattern to allow for shrinkage and machining.

Bernie
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Alan Downey on September 09, 2013, 09:43:55 PM
Enjoy the weather while you're down in my neck of the woods, Dave! We turned the heat down a notch for September.

I am as excited as the next person to start seeing parts cast and assemblies come together for #11. But I think that there would be real value in us producing a pattern for solid wheels for the rear truck. The historical appearance is certainly a big part of that. But also, as we look into the future of the museum, it's operation, and equipment upkeep and possible construction, we only have so many sets of 2ft wheels. While there is a real and appreciable cost to getting wheels cast, and axles purchased/machined, it would be good for us to have that option, than be held strictly to the wheels we have on hand. A wheel pattern could end up being one which the museum (and maybe even others) would get a lot of use out of. I'd be curious to hear others' thoughts.

Now that I am up at school, I'm working on patterns less, but I'm laying the groundwork so that I can finish a couple of core boxes, and produce 3-6 more patterns over the winter break. I've started working on the eccentrics, but haven't fully committed to any others yet. The eccentric straps, cylinder heads, and pistons were all candidates on my list pending communication with Jason, but I'd be happy to take a swing at the rear wheels if that would be of help. We might could even make the core for the axle the same as for the pilot wheels to save time in that department.
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Dave Crow on September 09, 2013, 10:20:49 PM
Hi Alan,

I agree with the desire to have a pattern for a non-spoked wheel.  The pattern could be used for more than #11, as wheelsets tended to be shuffled between freight cars, passenger cars, and tender trucks - most of the railroads swapped axle sets between equipment to save money.

We certainly have a need for wheels. I can think of 20 wheels needed within the 5-year time frame or sooner: 8 wheels for a set of freight car trucks, 8 wheels for rebuilding the spare set of passenger car trucks, and 4 wheels for #11.  Shucks, if we wanted better (namely, round) wheels under the creamery car, there would be another 8...

I did get a price quote from a well-known (and friendly to the preservation industry) manufacturer in Pennsylvania; if we were to purchase 20 wheels, the cost would be $2000 per wheel.  The price went up to about $2200 for smaller quantities.  Monetary donations are welcome from the readers out there in internet land.

Jason, I believe, would like to have a pattern created for the Portland Co. freight car wheel; he was going to look through the museum archives for a copy of the wheel drawing.  Give him a shout, or we'll see if he sees this thread and responds!  And, yes, it would be great if the core for the axle could be re-used to save time.

Dave Crow
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Alan Downey on October 28, 2013, 12:27:10 AM
Things have still been chugging away in the #11 patterns department. I don't know what the tally is for certain, I think we have about 20 or so patterns completed, or underway. I'm finding it really exciting to see whole component groups of patterns be completed, such as the set of bolsters that Bernie has been working on. Here's an idea of where things have come since the last update from Bernie and myself.

Bernie just sent these to me a week ago- this being the last of the three bolster patterns which were to be made. He always reminds me that patterns don't need to look nice, and that aesthetics are not generally a concern of his except for eye-catching patterns like the wheel centers-yet his work always looks really sweet. My hat's off to you, Bernie. I'll be looking forward to seeing your next project.

(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-OViZHFzBxik/Um2ceLxubDI/AAAAAAAAAFo/6IA_qCJu97M/s912/WW%2526FRR%2520%252311%2520Intermediate%2520Bolster%2520Pattern%2520Progress%2520005.JPG)

(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-Jt4Lwmr488E/Um2ceCUXXGI/AAAAAAAAAFs/8suN5LF7CLY/s912/WW%2526FRR%2520%252311%2520Intermediate%2520Bolster%2520Pattern%2520Progress%2520008.JPG)

(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-oz5uefdYYDE/Um2gQidcKcI/AAAAAAAAAGI/wa7447yb_iA/s912/WW%2526FRR%2520%252311%2520Intermediate%2520Bolster%2520Pattern%2520Progress%2520009.JPG)




Since my last photographic update, I've gotten quite a bit done. The journal boxes and for the lead truck, and the main wheels have been mostly finished. From left to right- first there is the journal box and oil cellar for the drive axles. Then there is the frame for the lead truck leaning against the wall, and the trough-like box in front of it is the core box to produce the negative space beneath the arches. Next is the front and back halves of the eccentrics. Finally, closest to the camera is the lead truck journal box and oil cellar.

(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-EykhWBO7lsA/Um2IvajTUiI/AAAAAAAAAE8/7kWLdxbUpX4/s912/DSC_8362.JPG)

(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-A4_ghknxRYc/Um2IykWFQ9I/AAAAAAAAAFE/ry643OHG8yc/s912/DSC_8374.JPG)

(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-IMIPUX3Ayik/Um2IupEYYZI/AAAAAAAAAE4/KAZ_TFp_ADE/s912/DSC_8369.JPG)

(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-IOEnarPOfAA/Um2I-TfCCBI/AAAAAAAAAFM/dM_mnGR87mc/s912/DSC_8376.JPG)

None of these patterns are done yet. They all still need some filleting, each journal box needs a core, and the lead truck frame needs some dimensional tweaking.  The larger eccentric half is still very rough on the interior. I'm trying to get some machine shop experience at school by producing a template for my router to follow with an endmill. This should get everything dimensioned and smooth. Ill then add draft by hand.

Over the winter break between semesters, I hope to finish all the fabrication work left for the patterns I've started, and also add some combination of the pistons, cross head, or valve chest to the list. We're holding off on a wheel for now, to allow for some more research. One step at a time.

Alan
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Steve Smith on October 28, 2013, 12:56:27 AM
Four cheer for Alan and Bernie! So exciting to see the work coming along this well.
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: John McNamara on October 28, 2013, 01:39:50 AM
Wow!

-John
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Ira Schreiber on October 28, 2013, 03:11:58 AM
Absolutely amazing.

'nuff said.

Ira
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Bernie Perch on October 28, 2013, 10:41:26 AM
Alan,

Thanx for posting the photos.  You have to email me the steps for posting photos so I can add that to my limited computer skills.  I always try to keep in mind how the patterns will be stored so that they can remain relatively intact for future use should another locomotive be constructed.  You saw how carelessly the patterns have been stored for CNJ 113 and I found that disheartening.  I enjoy comparing our different styles of construction.  I am waiting for the next set of plans.

Bernie
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Mike Fox on October 29, 2013, 01:25:28 AM
I for one would like to see these displayed, exhibit style if you will, when the room becomes available. I don't mean in the station, but when the house gets revamped there is talk of having a whole floor as a museum. These would be great pieces to display there, not only to show how it was done, but how it is still done. You guys are doing fabulous.
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: John Kokas on October 31, 2013, 12:38:33 AM
I think that by the time we're all done with all the patterns, we'll need a whole building just to display patterns!!!!  Not that I would complain in the least bit  ;D
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Alan Downey on October 31, 2013, 02:10:07 AM
Thanks everyone for the very kind words.

Mike, I completely agree with you. Part of the value in us building #11 as close to how it was originally done as is reasonably and practicably possible, is in providing a way for the public to see how how it was done. If/when space becomes available for more interpretive exhibits, I think it would be really cool if there were displays regarding processes/features like the Russia Iron, patterns and castings, or any of the many things that go on at the museum which are really unique, but that the public might not see on a regular weekend visit. For now, I'm glad that we have the forum to use as a record and a view into how so many of the projects at the museum are made possible.
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: John McNamara on October 31, 2013, 04:23:04 AM
Hi Alan,

I'd like to propose that someone write a couple of articles for the WW&F Newsletter about some of these things. That would also be a record and a view into how so many of the projects at the museum are made possible. The newsletter has over 1100 readers, so between the forum and the newsletter, this information would reach a lot of people (admittedly with some duplication).

Who might that "someone" be? My crystal ball is cloudy, but I think I see a first letter "A" and maybe a first ;letter "D."  ;)

-John
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Alan Downey on March 06, 2014, 03:53:08 AM
The Winter #11 Update

Since my post in October, I had the chance to spend a few holidays at home, including a nice lengthy stay over the Christmas break. No new patterns (for #11) have been made, but each one that I had started still had a lot of finishing work to do.

One of the biggest hurdles was producing the core boxes and prints for the two journal boxes. In order to reduce the machinist workload as much as possible while maintaining good margins, I had to try out a different core box construction method. For both of the journals, the core box for the bottom half comes apart on all sides, negating the need for draft in the core box itself. Bernie's feedback regarding my ideas was indispensable- I wouldn't have been confident in attempting it without it. The cores were a bit of a brainbender to figure out how they would go together, while maintaining accuracy and repeatability but I am very happy with the results, and will be keeping this construction method in mind for future patterns.

(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7330/12897969433_ee157e9906_b.jpg)

The core box assembled:
(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2808/12897978123_ec372b89e9_b.jpg)

And apart:
(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2839/12897984793_e0eaf2f786_b.jpg)

The lead truck journal is nearly a carbon copy in terms of pattern construction
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7330/12898320014_3b86989290_b.jpg)


The eccentrics have had a fair bit of work done. At last post, they had been roughed out, and were awaiting cleanup. In order to produce, I used a template and a follower along with a very long, 1/2" end mill to clean up the excess. At full extension, the end mill had a fair bit of chatter, reinforcing the reasoning behind using big end mills when you have to have a lot of extension. Too bad they won't fit in the router table! Nevertheless, it worked pretty dang well. I will also be keeping this in my back pocket in case it comes in handy for more complex interior shapes.

The eccentric, and it's template
(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3775/12897855455_310d3c0c77_b.jpg)

On the router table. I only raised the end mill 3/16" per pass, but wanted to show how everything worked together.
(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2863/12897861875_5fc801a213_z.jpg)

At this point, the retaining ring rattled off, and the template guide got caught up in the end mill. It was terribly exciting. Fortunately, the template guide was the only casualty, but I had to stop at this point until a new guide could arrive.
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7359/12897959143_900642cbe6_b.jpg)


While I wasn't able to make the three more patterns I'd hoped for #11, I did spend some time making a few new patterns for another project that's in the works. All of the other patterns received a lot of clean up work and attention. Applying the fillets takes a fair bit of time, and with everything all batched together, there were many days just spent filleting, and cleaning them up. All of the patterns (save one) are now either being finished, or are being prepped for finishing. As much as I loathe the finishing process, it's great to see things wrapping up. I had been worried that I bit off more than I could chew this year, and I think everything should come together just in time for a trip Down East this summer. I'll be glad to free up my bench space, but the car is going to be pretty full this year!

(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2815/12961445253_ce670aee13_b.jpg)
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Bernie Perch on March 06, 2014, 11:13:57 AM
Alan,

WOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!  As soon as my frigid cellar gets warmer, I will continue to add to the pile.  This has been a brutal winter among other things which have slowed me down.  You are an inspiration.  We need more youth like you.

Bernie
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Dave Crow on March 06, 2014, 01:16:27 PM
Alan,

Great work on all of those patterns!

Dave Crow
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Stephen Hussar on March 06, 2014, 01:56:00 PM
Alan, I second Dave's, Great Work! And Bernie's, WOW!!!

Stephen
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Jason M Lamontagne on March 06, 2014, 02:12:18 PM
Looks fabulous, Alan, thank you!
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Steve Smith on March 06, 2014, 03:05:51 PM
Alan…no question about it, we need to invent some new superlatives to describe your work. Thank you so much!
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Wayne Laepple on March 06, 2014, 05:37:49 PM
Fabulous work, Alan, just fabulous.
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Ira Schreiber on March 06, 2014, 07:41:29 PM
A wonderful addition by a talented volunteer.
Thank you.

Ira Schreiber
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Stewart "Start" Rhine on March 06, 2014, 09:10:13 PM
Hi Alan,

Those patterns are some NICE work!  Thanks for posting the photos, can't wait to see them in person.  Any idea when you may be coming to Maine?

Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Alan Downey on March 07, 2014, 01:58:38 AM
Thank you all so much for all of the very kind, and wonderful compliments. It's an honor to be working with this museum. I can't wait to see the pile of #11 patterns grow some more!

Stewart, I'm happy to say that my father and I hope to make it back up around the end of May this year, and we're really looking forward to it.
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Dave Buczkowski on March 07, 2014, 02:57:36 AM
Nice job Alan! I look forward to seeing you at Sheepscot.
Dave
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Stewart "Start" Rhine on March 24, 2014, 12:46:17 AM
Just noticed that this thread has passed 40,000 views, the first one (by far) to do so.  Not bad for a locomotive that doesn't even exist yet.

Start
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Philip Marshall on August 02, 2014, 08:55:24 PM
Some inspiration from Australia:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-08-01/amazing-backyard-build/5642732

-Philip Marshall
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Harold Downey on October 08, 2014, 01:16:19 AM
I am nearly finished with my first pattern for #11 - the lead truck center casting.   It is pretty complex -- there are three cores, one of which is very large.   

First a sketch in isometric view of the casting as it should look when finished.

Then two views of the main pattern with the two small core boxes.  Orange in this case indicates where cores go on the pattern (called core prints), and the core boxes, which are similarly color coded.
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Harold Downey on October 08, 2014, 01:16:56 AM
Finally the nearly finished core box for the main core.  Since it is so big and complex, I tried something new:   I made a positive of the core (shown to the left of the core box), and used that to make a plaster mold.  The plaster mold is the core box.  It took nearly 50 pounds of plaster, and I had to do some repair work after making the casting to fill voids.  Then I sealed it with a few coats of polyurethane.  Finally it will get a nice shiny coat of orange as well. 

Thanks go to Alan for helping me figure out how to do this, and also all his helpful jigs and fixtures for making 2 degree draft features, and many other tricks and shortcuts. 
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Wayne Laepple on October 08, 2014, 02:10:40 AM
Wow! That is some great work, Harold. I've seen a full-size version of the lead truck casting, and it is a pretty involved piece. Glad you were able to figure it out. I look forward to meeting you and Alan some day soon to express my appreciation of your work in person.
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Jason M Lamontagne on October 08, 2014, 11:34:32 AM
Wow- what great fun to see that piece become reality!

Credit to Steve (Smudgy) Smith for that isometric view!

Alan reports that 35/89 patterns required for no 11 are completed or in progress- that's great!

See Ya
Jason
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Bernie Perch on October 08, 2014, 05:10:22 PM
The stuff that is coming from Texas is nothing short of stunning.

Bernie
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Stephen Piwowarski on October 08, 2014, 06:11:41 PM
Alan and Harold and all of those working on #11,

Your work is wonderful and so important in moving this project forward. Thanks for applying your enthusiasm, dedication, and skill to this project and the railway!

I think the board may want to look into adding a teleportation device to the next long-term plan to aid in traveling between away (wherever that might be) and Maine. ;)

Steve
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Stephen Hussar on January 11, 2015, 12:54:57 PM
Nearly everything Gene Roddenberry envisioned has become reality...teleportation can't be too far off  :)
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Jason M Lamontagne on January 11, 2015, 04:08:01 PM
There's even a warp bubble theory in the works out there.  So much for transportation by rail...
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Harold Downey on January 15, 2015, 03:59:27 AM
I am going to start a short series of posts on the pattern for the rear frame extension casting.  This is the second largest pattern for the locomotive.  Overall it is 56 1/2" wide by 15" tall and 20 3/4" long.  Estimated weight of the finished steel casting is 521 lbs.

The function of this casting is to connect the forward frame to the rear frame just in front of the firebox.  If you recall for #9, it needed a similar casting when it was rebuilt. 

The first thing I did was take the CAD drawing and add machining allowance and draft.  Then I scaled it by the expected shrinkage of 1/4" per foot.   

The plan that Alan and I worked out for this casting is to break it into three parts, and to back it up with what is called a 'follow board'.    This allows the pattern to serve as its own core box (to form a core), and to be able to extract the pattern from the sand mold.    This will become more clear as the build progresses.  Just follow along and see. 

I started with the largest piece, a rectangular piece of plywood, laminated up to 1 1/64" thick, 2 degrees draft on all sides, and three 8" holes.  The holes are reinforced by a 3/4" wide ring, which also gets 2 degrees draft on both sides.


Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Harold Downey on January 15, 2015, 04:03:54 AM
Then I added two thickeners on the ends,  as well as the top and bottom flanges.  These flanges are laminated up, then tapered with the appropriate draft.   I glued these on, and put in some screws from the back to make sure they stay on. 
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Harold Downey on January 15, 2015, 04:14:46 AM
I started this on Saturday, laminating up most of the material for this part of the pattern.  Today I got this far:  I added the two large wings that stick up vertically, and the small horizontal connectors between the rings around the holes.   The two large wings are glued, but also backed up by some 2 1/2" screws to reinforce the joints.  I will have to plug the holes from the screws.   Eventually all the outside corners need to be rounded over, and inside corners need fillets. 

Stay tuned, more updates to follow.


Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Jason M Lamontagne on January 15, 2015, 12:53:38 PM
We should find a few outside, relevant discussion forums to link this to.  Pattern making, industrial preservation, etc.  This project can really have wide appeal...

Thanks so much for chronicling your work, Harold!

Jason
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Bernie Perch on January 15, 2015, 01:44:30 PM
Harold,

Again, super work.  A while back Jason sent me the plans for this part and I am studying  how you are making it and how it will be pulled from the sand.  Are you going to core in the washout holes or just figure that will be drilled in after the fact?

Bernie
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Bernie Perch on January 15, 2015, 01:47:06 PM
Jason,

When we came up for the work weekend, you mentioned you were going to talk to the foundry about getting some castings made for #11.  Has anything transpired since then?

Bernie
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Harold Downey on January 15, 2015, 04:34:33 PM
Here is an image of the solid model that Alan did in Solidworks.  It gives a pretty good idea of the complexities of this casting.  There are washout holes in the corners that are at 40 degrees -- how can this be pulled from the sand if these are to be cast in? 
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Harold Downey on January 15, 2015, 04:44:52 PM
To answer Bernie's question, I will explain how we decided to make this pattern.

If you look at the picture, we are creating a split line on the pattern along the dashed line B-B, so that the sides with the washout holes are separate, and can be withdrawn from the sand at the angle of the washout holes.  Then the back portion comes out perpendicular to its plane.  That way we get all the holes without cores, and the amount of draft required is minimized. 
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Bernie Perch on January 15, 2015, 10:32:11 PM
Howard,

WOW!!!!!!!!!  I love how you solved some of the complexities of this casting.

Bernie
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: James Patten on January 15, 2015, 10:54:06 PM
If you look at the picture, we are creating a split line on the pattern along the dashed line B-B, so that the sides with the washout holes are separate, and can be withdrawn from the sand at the angle of the washout holes.  Then the back portion comes out perpendicular to its plane.  That way we get all the holes without cores, and the amount of draft required is minimized. 

I've looked at this a couple of times and I can't say that I understand.  Since there are "wings" on both forward and rear, that means the whole casting has be to pretty deeply in the sand, and there has to be sand (or maybe its a core, not sure of terminology) around it to make the wings.  So how do you remove the wing with the washout hole without messing the rest of the casting?  Do the wings fold back so you can then remove the main part?
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Harold Downey on January 15, 2015, 11:08:45 PM
James,  the back side of the pattern will be filled completely at first with a wooden construct called a follow board.  It will be flush with the back surface, where the mold will split, and extends out top and bottom a few inches.    After sand is rammed up over the outside of the whole thing, the follow board is removed, the sand is dusted with parting compound, and more sand is rammed up in place of the follow board, forming a core.  The core comes out; then the pattern is removed in three pieces, then the mold is put back together for pouring. 

See Alan's sketch below; the follow board is the red part:
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Harold Downey on January 16, 2015, 02:35:45 AM
Daily progress update: 

I glued up material for the top and bottom flanges of the side wings.  I cut the 40 degree separation line where the back will join to the sides, and also made the flanges that stay with the back portion, and glued them on.   

The 40 degree cut was interesting, since I could only achieve 45 degrees on my table saw with the pattern laying flat.  I then used a hand plane to bring it down to the line. 

The flange sections started as glued up plywood to the thickness I needed, then planed to get a 2 degree draft on both sides (using the planing jigs that Alan came up with).  I printed out full size patterns for their shape, glued it on the surface, cut them out on a bandsaw, and used my hand plane to flatten the mating/gluing surface.  Note the dovetail feature which will interlock with the corresponding flanges on the sides (once I make them).

Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Harold Downey on January 17, 2015, 02:32:55 AM
I didn't have too much time to spend today, but I got a start on the top and bottom flanges of the two side wings.  I printed out the drawing full size (it took four pieces of paper to fit), glued it on the wood stack for both the left and right flanges, then cut it on a band saw.

The second photo shows how it fits on the main back portion of the pattern. 

Each of these I will need to taper to get the required 2 degrees of draft. I can't think of a way to do it with power tools, so I will mark the finished width along the outer edge, and use a hand plane to taper it from the inside down to the final outside thickness.  Since there are four of them, it will take a while.
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Stephen Hussar on January 17, 2015, 01:36:55 PM
Amazing!!

Stephen
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Harold Downey on January 19, 2015, 01:01:55 AM
Rear extension casting pattern:

Sorry, no pictures today.    Progress is not quite so visible.   All four of the flanges for the two sides were cut out, cleaned up to their lines, then tapered by hand on both sides to achieve the required draft.  I then made a full size template for the inside of the "U" to use to fine tune the fit of the flanges to the back portion of the pattern.  They are now all tuned up and ready to go.

Next I need to make the vertical portion, the web the connects the top flange to the bottom flange.  I am going to stack laminate them from plywood, so each layer has the shape of the cross section.  I am preparing two templates to use for these, since I will need to cut out and stack 16 pieces of 3/4" thick plywood for each side.   It is really amazing how much plywood a pattern can eat up.  Just the four flanges took almost a 1/4 sheet of 3/4 ply. 
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Harold Downey on January 21, 2015, 01:13:38 AM
Pattern progress:

This pattern seemed to go really fast at first.  The back portion was large but relatively straight forward, so it went together fast.   The two side wings are taking a lot of time.

Over the last couple of days, I have cut out all the pieces to stack laminate the two sides.  There were a total of 36 pieces required.   In the picture below, you can see where I have glued up two stacks, which will make up one side.   In the foreground are the two templates that I used to generate them.    After I glue up the pieces for the other side, I need to do a lot of hand work to fill the voids exposed in the plywood, smooth the surfaces, then cut to final height.   I am debating whether to cut out the large oval holes for the clean out plug access before final glue up, or do it in each individual piece first. 
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Harold Downey on January 23, 2015, 02:18:40 AM
Today's pattern update:

I finally got one side all glued up, as you can see in the picture.  There was a lot of tedious hand tweaking to get it to fit properly.  You can see that I cut most of the oval hole before assembly, except for the center web -- which I will cut out later.  The problem with stack laminations, is that they can skew during glue-up, and then nothing is square because it parallelograms.     I am probably looking at two more days of work to do the other side.  Despite spending more time on the stack glue ups, they are worse than the first set. 
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Keith Taylor on January 23, 2015, 02:28:27 AM
Harold on the laminations, could you put in a couple of holes in a set location on each layer and then use a dowel as a register pin to ensure that all of the layers line up perfectly?

Keith
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: John McNamara on January 23, 2015, 03:57:47 AM
The slipping laminations reminds me of my mother making a fancy dessert for her bridge club. It involved slicing an angel food cake into about five layers, putting a filling between the layers, reassembling the whole thing, frosting it, and then chilling it in the refrigerator.  She had failed to make the slices absolutely parallel, and the chilling process somehow made the filling more slippery. No number of toothpicks (similar to Keith's dowels) could stop the impending sideways collapse. The result was too ugly to serve to the bridge club, but my father and I found the taste was unaffected by the disaster.  ;D

-John
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Alan Downey on January 23, 2015, 06:25:32 AM
Keith,

I can't speak for my dad, but while dowels would be an effective way to assure the pieces stayed aligned for a glue up, brad nails also work stupendously. as long as you're sure that you won't need to cut anything later. But my dad and I have differing philosophies on the use of brads.

I was at home last weekend, so I grabbed a couple pictures of the pattern while Harold was working on it. They give a much better sense of scale for the whole thing- it's really huge. I've been working with the drawings and 3D model for the casting for the last few months, and I still was taken aback when I saw it in person. And it's even larger now that the wings are going on.

It was a nice 70 degree day, so we rolled up the door and enjoyed the fresh air!
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7546/15725591883_53ecbf1f7f_c.jpg)

(https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8602/16343780471_e2336762da_c.jpg)


Filleting has been the biggest time suck for the pattern making process. If we could speed up that portion of our work, I believe that we could really increase our pattern output. Thus, we've decided that the Rear Frame Extension would be a great test bed for us to use commercially available wax fillets. So we ordered some loose ball bearings, and I've spent part of the week making ball end fillet tools. I've got a little Sherline lathe in my apartment that makes short work of little projects like these. We're looking forward to finding out how they work. Hopefully well!

(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7462/16344874112_7ff7669131_c.jpg)
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Bernie Perch on January 23, 2015, 11:51:29 AM
Harold, Alan,

I am an advocate of the brad method and when making core boxes, I use wallboard screws to keep everything in place.

Bernie
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Keith Taylor on January 23, 2015, 03:41:08 PM
I was thinking dowels that were long enough to extend the entire height of the stack.
It would not only align the laminations, but would give strength vertically to the stack.
Also dowels work great for cross nutting when you have to screw into end grain.

Alan....it's a shame your dad has to work in such cramped quarters!  ;D

Keith
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: John McNamara on January 23, 2015, 04:02:27 PM
Alan....it's a shame your dad has to work in such cramped quarters!  ;D
He can always take a break on one of those 70-degree days and take a quick trip in that nice strip canoe in the background! 8)

-John
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Harold Downey on January 26, 2015, 02:23:01 AM
Pattern progress:

First, thanks for everyone's suggestions.  I agree that dowels would have improved things a lot, and even brad nails have their place.  so, maybe next time... In the end, what I ended up with was not as bad as I feared.  I tweaked the bottom surface to make it more square to the new (skewed) sides, then took out the rest with judicious hand planing.  In the end, I had enough fat in my rough cut out to fix it without having to add any material.   

As you can imagine there was a lot of time spent squaring up and flattening the subsections.  Then I glued up the RH wing.  After that cured, I spent even more time cleaning up each wing, since the alignment of each of the five pieces that make up each wing is not perfect.     I mainly used hand planes for leveling the surfaces, but some hand sanding and even a belt sander were also used. 

I was not real happy with the fit of the joint between the wings and the middle section.   To improve that, I put waxed paper on the joint surfaces of the middle section, buttered up the mating surfaces of the wings with thickened epoxy and squashed them together.  A few clamps to hold them over night, and after some clean up today, they mate really nicely.     Recall that these wings remain separate pieces, so that they can be removed from the sand mold before the middle section. 

The latest picture shows all pieces together.  The dark spots are areas that have epoxy fill  to take care of low spots, voids in the plywood and self induced errors (did I mention that belt sanders can do damage really quickly?).      I have 62 hours in this to date. 

The remaining tasks are: additional fill, smoothing, edge rounding, filleting and finishing.    I will also be starting on the follow board. 
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Tom Casper on January 26, 2015, 05:37:22 PM
WOW Harold, really a nice looking pattern.

Tom C.
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Dave Crow on January 27, 2015, 01:59:23 PM
Nice work, Harold!

Dave Crow
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Ira Schreiber on January 27, 2015, 07:59:00 PM
And a tip of the Kentucky Derby to you for all your efforts
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Harold Downey on January 29, 2015, 01:13:41 AM
I started on the follow board for the pattern.  It needs to fit inside the U of the casting pattern, and project outside about 2 inches.  It also needs a generous draft on the top and bottom surfaces - I used five degrees.   It should fit tightly against the insides of the 5 big holes, to back up the sand that gets packed around the pattern. 

The first parts I made were the inside radiused corners.  These I made by cutting six pieces with 7.5 degree angled sides (15 degrees included angle) which when glued together makes a 90 degree segment.   Initially it had facets, but after a minimal amount of planing and sanding, it became a nice smooth arc.  I used western red cedar, which is very easy to work.   

I adjusted their shape as much as I could to mate with the inside of the pattern, but the pattern had more errors than I could accommodate.  My sanding of the inside radii of the pattern got a little too wild.   So time to break out the epoxy!   I wrapped the radius segments in waxed paper; filled the low spots on the pattern with the filled epoxy and pressed in the follow board corner segments.  When I removed them the next day, it looked pretty close to what it needed to be.  Just a little sanding and I had a fantastic fit to the follow board, and the pattern is the correct shape now.     This is the part of pattern making that is so different from furniture -- it doesn't matter how it looks, only that it has the shape and dimensions you  need. 

As you can see in the picture, I have connected the two corner bits with a flat section in the middle, and two wing sections as well.    There is not much more to do on these, just the top and bottom faces, then some reinforcement here and there.     I should be able to post a picture tomorrow with the pattern and follow board assembled together. 

Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Harold Downey on January 30, 2015, 03:15:20 AM
I said I would post  some pictures of the (nearly) completed follow board inside the pattern.  The first two photos are a couple views of the follow board and pattern together.  Then the follow board by itself, and finally the pattern by itself.   This is the orientation that it will be in as the sand is rammed up around it to make the mold. 

I won't have much to show from this point to the completed pattern, since it is merely a lot of time spent filleting, sanding, filling, sanding, finishing, sanding...   Although I got some wax fillets to try, so I will do a post that shows how they are applied. 
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Harold Downey on January 30, 2015, 03:16:42 AM
Next photo
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Harold Downey on January 30, 2015, 03:17:39 AM
Last one
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Dave Crow on January 30, 2015, 01:07:39 PM
Nice work, Harold.  So, how does a follow board work when the pattern is at the foundry?  Is the bottom portion of the packed sand formed to the shape of the follow board, with the top/removable half of the mold formed around the pattern itself?

Dave Crow
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Harold Downey on January 30, 2015, 03:43:44 PM
Dave, pardon me if my expanation is not so clear, but I will try.   

Imagine the pattern and follow board together, as in the first picture, on a flat surface.  The bottom flask is placed around the assembly, and sand is rammed up in the flask. 

Then the flask is inverted and the follow board removed.  The exposed sand is dusted with a parting compound.   The second flask is placed on it now, and sand is rammed up in it.    This second flask and its sand is lifted vertically, and it has the shape of the inside of the casting sticking out from its face. 

Now the pattern is removed in three pieces - the two side wings first, drawn out at the angle of the washout holes, then the main portion is removed vertically. 

Now lower the top flask onto the bottom, and the net shape will be the shape we want.  No cores needed, and all five holes are formed in the mold. 

There is an additional complication due to the fact that a C-shaped casting will want to bow out when it solidifies, so we need to form a couple of sacrificial tie bars across the back.   This can be done with foam inserts or by shaping grooves in the sand by hand. 

I hope this is clear.   Alan and I worked out this scheme after much discussion.  Jason alerted us to the issue of the casting deforming, since it happened on the first casting done for #9.  We hope not to be making any more crane counterweights  :)
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Dave Crow on January 30, 2015, 04:21:52 PM
Hi Harold,

Okay, now it all makes sense.  Thanks for your explanation.

Dave Crow
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: John McNamara on January 30, 2015, 04:22:18 PM
Where/how did you learn how to do this?
-John
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Harold Downey on January 30, 2015, 04:40:12 PM
Well, the short answer is, Alan taught me everything I know. :)   Also, I read three old patternmaking books that google book search had complete scans of.    I also am a mechanical engineer, and spent some years designing stuff to be manufactured, so I have some feel for this kind of thing. 

For reference, the books are: 

Pattern Making and Foundry Practice, L.H. Land, 1912
Pattern-Making, G.H. Willard, 1910
Practical Pattern Making, Frank Wilson Barrows, 2nd Ed.,, 1913

Alan also figured out a lot of techniques that help make the whole patternmaking process pretty streamlined.  And Bernie got Alan started with much help and discussion.
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Alan Downey on March 27, 2015, 06:04:54 AM
One of the reasons why I enjoy pattern making so much, is that you often have to come up with unconventional ways to deal with unconventional shapes. For the most part, our efforts for #11's patterns are guided in two ways- completing major component groups, and starting from the ground up. Since it doesn't make sense to start a locomotive from the sand dome, this has lead to the fabrication of component groups such as the drive wheels and counterweights (finished), the front truck (finished), rear truck (in progress), frame components (finished), and valve gear(in progress). But every once in awhile, the difficulty of undertaking a pattern starts to feel like something of Baldwin trying to challenge our capabilities. The smokestack was exactly one of those sorts of patterns. When I get caught by a bug like that, the easiest way to deal with it is just lean in and see where it goes.

About a year ago, I started wondering how we as a group would make such a large turning. The stack pattern itself is 40.5" tall (without core prints), and 15" in diameter at it's largest. No available pro-sumer wood lathes are large enough to accommodate such length, and our heavily modified Harbor Freight lathe couldn't handle the swing over it's bed even if it wanted to. Secondly, making the pattern out of solid wood would eat up a massive amount of material, and be highly unwieldy at best. I've had this post sitting on the back burner for a few months, but here's how it all happened.

The second problem wasn't too hard to solve. I've had the fortune of watching two cedar stripped boats be put together, and I've seen barrels. So I figured that if I could make a barrel out of cedar planks, it would be economical to make, and light enough to be easily maneuverable once it was assembled. I got started on this whole process within a week of getting back from Maine, last summer. Firstly, I made three hexodecagon stations, designed to come apart in the middle. The hole at the center of each station was dual purpose...
(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5605/15473838952_5e7f6fe4b5_c.jpg)

It took a few tries to get my jig to work correctly...
(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5609/15287552598_81438d7420_c.jpg)
 
In order to get some clean staves that would turn easily, I rummaged through a stack of cedar at Home Depot with my Dad, to find 9 perfectly clear 2x4's, which was surprisingly easy. I cut them down, and planed them to about 1.25", and cut the first bevel on each piece.
(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3941/15287475650_22e35c18b0_c.jpg)

The stack tapers outward towards the top, by 1 degree. So I had to make a second jig to cut the taper, and the bevel simultaneously.
(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5602/15287605477_b5217dc3c1_c.jpg)

After multiple test fittings, I glued everything up with epoxy, and cargo straps.
(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3937/15287466400_a0c56b6bbe_c.jpg)

And later added on the stock for the upper lip of the stack.

While the swing over the bed of our lathe is only 10", we can rotate the head stock 90 degrees, and turn "outboard". Usually, this is used to make very large diameter, but "flat" sorts of objects. The eccentric patterns were turned as a unit in this way. Turning something as long as the stack requires that it be supported on both ends. To do this, I decided to run a pipe through the length of the pattern, to be picked up by a pillow block mounted to the workbench. The pipe was fitted into the head stock face plate which had been bored out to fit, pass through the holes in the plywood stations, and make a tight fit with a wooden face plate  on the other end, before fitting into the pillow block.
(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3927/15474153315_c569fcbf00_c.jpg)

Also shown, is the tool rest that I rigged up. I would need at least one tripod to support a standard tool rest. But I had anticipated that the turning would take a day or more, and I didn't want to be limited to turning 12" at a time before having to move the rest around. So I made a second tripod to support a 40" tool rest. It turned out that I only needed turning tools on the body of the stack for a couple hours. The vast majority of the time was spent bringing everything to final diameter with 60 grit sandpaper. I had the dust collector running big time to keep things manageable. I filled the pockets and imperfections with epoxy after the first day.
(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3933/15474132735_721fc8c78f_c.jpg)

And turned the lip the following morning.
(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5599/15287426950_2366423c24_c.jpg)

And gave everything a coat of epoxy to seal the outside.
(https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8701/16320393294_1f1b075d17_c.jpg)

Since August, (when work on #9's whistle started), the stack has sat mostly idle. It still needs core prints, and a giant core box. I also worked on the valve chest and cap, and spent so much time filleting them that I came to despise them. And compared to the stack, they are pretty tame. While I originally hoped to bring the stack up in the back of a car- once the core prints are added, it will be exceedingly difficult to transport. So the stack will probably stay in Texas until the cylinder saddle duties have been divided up and completed- then bring all of the giant patterns up in a truck load.
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Bernie Perch on March 27, 2015, 10:48:35 AM
Alan,

You guys are totally unbelievable!!!!!!!!!

Bernie
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Stewart "Start" Rhine on March 27, 2015, 12:05:28 PM
Fantastic work Alan, the stack pattern is a work of art.  Thanks for the update.

Start
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Wayne Laepple on March 27, 2015, 12:54:22 PM
I am just absolutely gobsmacked at the ingenuity you and your dad use to solve problems, Alan. You two make it all look so simple!
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Mike Fox on March 27, 2015, 01:10:35 PM
Nice work
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Dave Buczkowski on March 27, 2015, 01:23:05 PM
Alan;
I am in awe! Your work should be in a museum! Oh, wait, it will be...
We are so fortunate to have you as members. I look forward to seeing you and your father in Sheepscot again.
Dave
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Dave Crow on March 27, 2015, 01:26:17 PM
Awesome piece of work!  You guys have been so clever in figuring out how to make the patterns; the castings should be much easier!

Dave Crow
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: James Patten on March 27, 2015, 02:02:00 PM
Really nice.  The photo of the unturned barrel looks like a gatling gun.
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Stephen Hussar on March 27, 2015, 02:26:35 PM
Phenomenal!! Really enjoying seeing these different items take shape, thank you!!
SH
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Ira Schreiber on March 27, 2015, 07:40:45 PM
Absolutely awesome.
I could not assemble a balsa wood airplane without the wings falling off  !
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Philip Marshall on March 27, 2015, 10:10:24 PM
Wow, I'm impressed! Absolutely beautiful work, Alan.

By the way, coopering a set of staves and then turning the hexadecagon/octagon/whatever down to a tapered cylinder on a big lathe is exactly how wooden masts are made for tall ships. Your intuition led you to the right answer!

-Philip Marshall
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Alan Downey on March 28, 2015, 12:13:44 AM
Thank you for the compliments! I hope these posts that we do aren't too wordy. Some of my favorite posts to read on the forum are the ones about the creative solutions people come up with for the wide variety of problems that come up at the museum. I also just like to show that as weird as pattern making seems to be- it's not magic. And I hope that seeing some of the problem solving might encourage others to give it a try.
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Paul Uhland on March 30, 2015, 04:17:22 AM
Alan...absolutely amazingly first-rate design and work, the usual for you, and your dad.
IMHO you can explain and show your processes all you want. 
Bravo!  :D
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Carl G. Soderstrom on March 31, 2015, 05:19:44 AM
Is this where I suggest that a full size outline of #11 be erected painted somewhere and the
beautiful patterns mounted in their proper locations?
It should be where it can be seen by the public and the huge amount of work appreciated.
(Buy a piece of a pattern?)
If the pattern is to be used more than once it will have to be in a climate controlled environment?
This may be something down the road but I think it would make money if it does not cost too
much to  set up.
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Bill Baskerville on April 01, 2015, 11:39:47 AM
Perhaps an air tank could be put in side the pattern locomotive Carl is speaking of so it could be powered by compressed air.  It could then shuffle around the yard.  Just a whimsical thought.  The patterns you and your dad make are true works of art.  I enjoying looking at them and marvel at your accomplishments.
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Keith Taylor on April 01, 2015, 10:24:39 PM
Perhaps an air tank could be put in side the pattern locomotive Carl is speaking of so it could be powered by compressed air.  It could then shuffle around the yard.  Just a whimsical thought.  The patterns you and your dad make are true works of art.  I enjoying looking at them and marvel at your accomplishments.
Bill...that would be impractical. Basically you don't need to make the same number of patterns as the number of parts. As an example, you only need one drive wheel pattern as you can use the one pattern four times.
Keith
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Rick Rowlands on September 24, 2015, 01:02:12 PM
I have been in the foundry business off and on for many years, and now I am restoring a 23" gauge Porter 0-4-0T, Jones & Laughlin Steel No. 58.  Three weeks ago I brought both of those interests together when I cast a new set of grates for the locomotive at an iron pour that we held at the Carrie Furnaces National Historic Landmark in Rankin, PA, just outside of Pittsburgh.  We are ramping up a metal arts program at the site and over the winter will begin construction of a foundry building.  By next summer we will have the ability to cast grey iron and ductile iron up to about 7,000 lbs.  We will also be able to cast bronze.  Much of our work will be art pieces, but my interest is in creating a location where castings for historic restoration projects could also be made.  We will be producing all of the castings that we need for our railroad, including the wheels.

I am confident that we could produce all of the grey iron, ductile iron and bronze castings for the WW&F 11 project, do it at a cost substantially less than what a commercial foundry would charge and with the same quality.  I have worked at foundries producing iron castings from 100 tons down to a couple of pounds using both no bake and greensand.  I've also operated my own iron foundry business making reproduction parts for gas engine and tractor enthusiasts. 

Carrie Furnaces NHL is a former US Steel blast furnace plant, once the major iron producing facility for the now demolished Homestead Steel Works.  The furnaces could each produce over 1,000 tons of molten iron per day that was converted into steel and rolled into I beams, channels, plates and armor plate.  It is now a major tourist attraction in the Pittsburgh area.  We are restoring the J&L 58 in the blowing engine house and have intentions of constructing several hundred feet of track on which to operate the locomotive when it is finished.

Just something to think about as you plan your WW&F 11 build.  Click on the below link and advance through the photos of the making of the grates as well as builders plates.  I made one plate out of bronze and four more out of iron, working from an aluminum reproduction plate that I changed the construction number on.  The grate pattern is about 100 years old and part of the collection at the WA Young Foundry & Machine Shop, a complete turn of the century lineshaft driven machine shop that is also under our care. 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/33523379@N03/21477577788/in/dateposted-public/ (https://www.flickr.com/photos/33523379@N03/21477577788/in/dateposted-public/)

Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Jason M Lamontagne on September 24, 2015, 04:40:37 PM
Hi Rick,

I'd definitely like to chat with you privately if we could.  I'm busy at the moment but hope to establish an email conversation soon.  Thanks for reaching out,

Jason
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Bernie Perch on September 24, 2015, 06:44:54 PM
I have been following your work on other sites.  Alan Downey and I have been making patterns for the #11 project for years and they have been shown on this site.  I would love to see some of these castings made so the actual construction of the locomotive could begin.  I am also working on a whistle project where I will need the parts cast in a high pressure steam bronze.  Will you have that capability?  Would you also be able to cast a complex three chime flat top whistle bell in a horizontal plane?

Bernie Perch
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Rick Rowlands on September 25, 2015, 12:08:20 PM
Bernie,  I've always enjoyed making the more complex castings, as it take a bit of patience and some out of the box thinking to get the cores to stay where they need to be and get the gating and risering right.  I can try anything, and if it doesn't come out just throw it back into the furnace and try again.   As long as the alloy is available in ingots we should be able to melt it in the crucible furnace.

Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Bernie Perch on September 25, 2015, 09:10:36 PM
I am going to PM my email to you to discuss this fully.

Bernie
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Rick Rowlands on November 20, 2015, 03:08:33 AM
An organization that I am involved with, Rivers of Steel Heritage Corp., owns a 1900 era lineshaft driven machine shop located in a small town along the Monongahela River about 60 miles up the river from Pittsburgh, PA.  It is the WA Young Foundry & Machine Shop, and most of the machines inside are operational.   With the desire to build No. 11 using techniques that were available around the turn of the last century, we would be able to offer the use of WA Young for the production of some of the components needed for No. 11. 

The shop is equipped with a varied assortment of machine tools, including a lathe that can turn 30" (or maybe larger), a 30" x 6' planer, drills, milling machines, smaller lathes, and a 200 ton horizontal wheel press. All are flat belt driven and are original to the shop.   In the adjacent room is an iron foundry with a 22" cupola furnace and a coal fired crucible furnace for making brass castings.  I spoke with Jason today about WA Young and the possibility of doing some work here.    One of the goals of Rivers of Steel is to make WA Young useful again.  I have been doing some limited machine work down there and reactivating machine tools as I go. 

The Historic American Engineering Record documented the facility and this is their survey:
http://www.loc.gov/pictures/collection/hh/item/pa2222/

I also have an album of photos of Young here: https://www.flickr.com/photos/33523379@N03/albums/72157648586082640

Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Stewart "Start" Rhine on November 20, 2015, 01:14:19 PM
Rick,

That's a nice shop with lots of good equipment.  We like the old flapping belt shops and have all the parts to build a shingle mill with the lineshaft system.  Thanks for posting the links.

Start
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Philip Marshall on November 20, 2015, 02:20:36 PM
Hi Rick,

What a beautiful shop! Thank you for posting these pictures.
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Jason M Lamontagne on November 20, 2015, 03:10:41 PM
I had a great chat with Rick yesterday, and believe partnering with his many efforts in PA will hold tremendous benefit for our projects- and hopefully meet some of his needs as well. 

Jason
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Jason M Lamontagne on November 20, 2015, 03:13:32 PM
And- what a FABULOUS shop at Young; I hope to see the No 11 project blended there and here, and that some of our members might show up there to help when the time comes.  Great possibilities...

Jason
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Wayne Laepple on November 20, 2015, 04:22:34 PM
The Young facility puts me in mind of the East Broad Top's shops, as well as the old shop at Cass, which burned in 1972. The EBT's facility included its own iron and brass foundry as well. I can't recall if Cass had an in-house foundry. I'll looking forward to a visit to Young sometime.
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Rick Rowlands on November 30, 2015, 03:52:11 AM
I was down at WA Young today.   While I was there I took a short video of the shop, basically showing the extent of the machine tools and other equipment that are there.  The radial drill has not drilled a hole in many years, but today we used it to drill a couple of 3/4" holes in two smokebox door dogs that I had to make for J&L 58. 

We were also looking at the coal fired crucible furnace that is in the floor.  We plan to test fire it sometime over the winter, and hope to have it ready to melt bronze in preparation to some casting work to do in the spring. 

The planer has a 32" x 10' bed, and the big lathe has a 40" swing with a maximum workpiece length of 16 feet.   There are various jib cranes located in the building to move heavy workpieces off and onto the machines. 

Anyways, here is the video: https://youtu.be/9cSW9KQWIoY (https://youtu.be/9cSW9KQWIoY)
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Paul Uhland on December 04, 2015, 01:11:48 AM
A co-op arrangement with the Young shop looks like the exact element now needed to get the 11 build started.
And I'm sure Rick has a few experienced hands  from the Youngstown/Pittsburgh area, along with WW&F guys,  who could help.

Looking forward to a fascinating journey toward 11's steamup.
Imagine...WW&F a three-loco road in the near future.   ;)
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: John Kokas on December 04, 2015, 01:51:16 AM
Wow!  What a cool shop.  And still all there which is so rare these days.  It would be great to see parts of #11 being created but I think there might be a just as pressing need to make some more passenger car and freight car trucks for existing and future equipment.  With #9 coming back online and now with our ability to accommodate tour buses we're going to need more WW&F (reproduction) passenger cars.
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Rick Rowlands on December 13, 2015, 01:43:24 AM
Building trucks might be a good way to "get our feet wet" so to speak over at WA Young.  Most of the machines haven't made chips in decades, so starting out with a simple project such as truck building may be the ideal project to work the bugs out of the machines and lineshafting.   Pressing wheelsets together on the 300 ton wheel press is going to be interesting to say the least.
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Jason M Lamontagne on December 13, 2015, 01:17:56 PM
In an attempt to reassure everyone that there's some logic and reason behind our aspirations, ill mention here that we have active plans to build a replica coach, along with a historically appropriate WW&F open excursion car.  We have passenger trucks and couplers for the coach already.  We also have most of the in house capability to perform these projects.  Both, and many others, will be started and completed long before no 11 steams.

No 11 is a big project that will serve as a rallying point for members, volunteers and donors.  It's meant to be ambitious, though I assure you there is tremendous thought and planning that will allow the project to proceed smoothly.  Rick's offer of help from WA Young is the perfect outside kick to allow this project to really get off the ground- and we want to use that offer as thoughtfully as possible.  Getting a start on a big, long term project that stretches our own shop's capability seems like a great down payment on the no 11 project, while rebuilding the passenger trucks we have and building a coach is all attainable right in Sheepscot and is a near term goal (2017- after the turntable).

I guess what I'm trying to say is:  these projects can proceed simultaneously- each at their own rate.  No 11 will take so long- it will need to overlap with numerous other projects.  Rest assured- our priorities are straight- we know we have to build 12 coaches so no 11 has something to hall :)

See ya
Jason
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Ira Schreiber on December 13, 2015, 01:57:29 PM
12 coaches(?) or coach # 12?

Ira
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Jason M Lamontagne on December 13, 2015, 02:19:06 PM
12 coaches, numbers to be determined...
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Ira Schreiber on December 13, 2015, 02:23:09 PM
Thanks.
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: John Kokas on December 13, 2015, 02:28:13 PM
I recall being told that one (or more) of our passenger consist currently resides on freight trucks, plus I believe that #65 sits on what would be considered shop trucks.  Hence my previous comments.  Jason's comments only confirms that we will need trucks, however long it will take.  Has anyone started on patterns for the required castings?
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: John Kokas on December 13, 2015, 02:35:30 PM
Jason,

I assume that we will attempt to recreate replicas of the original WW&F passenger fleet first, (if we have drawings, etc).  If not, is the plan to reproduce copies of #3?  Long term it would be really cool to create our own version of the Rangley.  (wishful thinking)
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Jason M Lamontagne on December 13, 2015, 02:38:52 PM
Ok guys- hold on-- 12 coaches was a joke.  I certainly hope we are big enough to need that many someday- but my comment was completely meant as fun.  One replica coach is currently planned- with long term thoughts of another (perhaps combine).

65 has proper freight trucks, though new wheels are in order.

Coach 8 is doing ok on the trucks it has.

See ya
Jason
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: John Kokas on December 13, 2015, 06:03:48 PM
OK you got me good !!!!!!!!  I think I'm entitled to a free pass on the April gags...........
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Kyle Irving on December 14, 2015, 12:55:44 AM
Does no. 11 need a NOS Metropolitan?
http://www.enginads.com/classifieds/showproduct.php/product/122718/cat/7

Probably TOO small for an engine that size but it might suffice.

Can't be too many of these left in the original box...
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Paul Uhland on December 14, 2015, 05:17:53 AM
Since only one passenger car will be built next year ;), what is on the schedule to start Sheepscot's last big addition, the turntable? Is the roundhouse part of the project? How about the coal bin, to now feed two busy steamers?
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: James Patten on December 14, 2015, 12:09:13 PM
Turntable work will start this winter (with castings and machining), followed by excavation in spring assuming that the Kubota is healthy.

Roundhouse is not yet scheduled in.

Coal bin was one of the projects in this year's fund drive but it's unlikely to be funded this time around.

As for passenger cars - yes we want to build one but it won't happen in 2016.  A lot of work goes into one of those.  My guess is that would be a two year project at least.
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Paul Uhland on December 14, 2015, 09:02:44 PM
Thanks for the update.
Good luck with running the best Victorian Christmas yet!
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Brendan Barry on June 30, 2016, 04:12:34 AM
Plans for no. 11's boiler.

(http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s5/bbarry74/bbarry74008/IMG_5927.jpg)

Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Brendan Barry on January 06, 2017, 04:54:07 AM
Jason's pictures.

No. 11's barrel sheet after being cut on the water jet table.

(http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s5/bbarry74/bbarry74003/IMG_9778.jpg)

11's barrel sheet being lined up with the rolling mill.

(http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s5/bbarry74/bbarry74003/IMG_9775.jpg)

11's barrel after rolling.

(http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s5/bbarry74/bbarry74003/IMG_9776.jpg)

Part of 11's fire box and outer wrapper sheet. In the picture is Jim Hueber, his son Grady and nephew John. Jim runs Mack Bros Boiler & Sheet Iron Works Co., Inc. where the rolling for 10's and 11's boiler parts was done. Jim also donated the riveters that are being used to assemble the boilers.

(http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s5/bbarry74/bbarry74003/IMG_9774.jpg)
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Bill Baskerville on January 06, 2017, 05:14:03 AM
It is just amazing how much is being accomplished is so short a period of time.  From the discovery a little over a year ago, that No. 10 needed a new boiler, to the decision making, design of 10 & 11's boilers, fund raising, contracting, and now cut and rolled steel.  I can't think of any private, commercial or governmental organization that reacts and implements as quickly as our cadre of volunteers. 

Simply amazing..... truly amazing!

Bill
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Ira Schreiber on January 06, 2017, 07:45:39 PM
Political message.
It is amazing what can be accomplished when the Government does not oversee the project.
(Tongue in cheek)
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Wayne Laepple on January 06, 2017, 09:00:55 PM
Well done, all.
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Mike Fox on January 06, 2017, 09:23:10 PM
Well said Ira.
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Gordon Cook on January 07, 2017, 12:01:43 AM
Very exciting to see the pieces start to take shape. Looks like we have some serious riveting ahead.
Did I miss the rolling of the sheets for #10's boiler? Or are they next in line?

Oh, and please, let's leave the political comments out. There's plenty of opinionating everywhere else, and getting away from all that is one of the great things about the WW&F.
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Ed Lecuyer on January 07, 2017, 12:07:22 AM
2 comments:

1. The components for #10 and #11 are being rolled simultaneously. The order they come out at the fabricators is based on their preferences in getting the entire job done as efficiently as possible. If all went according to plan, all the parts should now be completed.

2. I considered Ira's comment more of a joke/humorous stab than a political statement. Any further debate on political matters will be subject to moderation.

Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Jason M Lamontagne on January 07, 2017, 12:34:07 AM
I'll post about the sheet rolling under general discussion, 21 campaign.

Jaso
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: James Patten on January 07, 2017, 01:22:35 AM
It's the cadre of donors that makes it all possible.  All the plans in the world mean little if the money isn't there to back it up.  Thanks to all those who regularly give a little something each month to this project!
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Mike the Choochoo Nix on January 08, 2017, 03:04:04 PM
Just curious. Is the horizontal seam in the barrel going to be welded or riveted? If it's riveted what style of joint will be used?
Thanks, Mike Nix
Title: Re: WW&F No. 11 - Official Work Thread
Post by: Mike the Choochoo Nix on December 18, 2018, 04:25:08 PM
I know this thread is old and I know that major work on #11 is a few years away however I thought I would post this link. http://dakotafoundry.com/capabilities/ Dakota Foundry is owned by Cory Anderson, who built the 150 hp Case traction engine replica. Having some of the more complex casting like the cylinders done by them would be something to consider as they understand steam engines. I'm not suggesting they would be the cheapest place but they might be ones the best and I would hope that they would at least be consulted before decisions on who will do major castings are made.